Essential Dynamics with Derek Hudson

Bruce shares four ideas for identifying drivers in systems. "A sign of an actual driver in your business is that it's really obvious when you think about it, but it takes a long time to get there."

Show Notes


What is Essential Dynamics with Derek Hudson?

Join Derek Hudson as he explores Essential Dynamics, a framework for approaching the challenges facing people and organizations. Consider your Quest!

Reed:

And what does that guitar riff mean? It means it's time to settle in to another episode of our podcast, Essential Dynamics. I'm Reed McColm, your Guitar Shredding host, and, I'm here with my good friend and teacher, mister Derek Hudson. Derek, are you on the line?

Derek:

Reed, I'm here. Ready to go. Excited about having Bruce Alton back with us today.

Reed:

That's good. I'm glad Bruce is back because he left us with hanging chads as far as I'm concerned. And, we've got to we've got to, you know, delve more into that consideration of drivers.

Derek:

We're we're a bunch of good Alberta boys, South South Edmonton guys, and, you know, you gotta get her done. And we didn't get her done last week.

Reed:

Get her done.

Bruce:

Get her done.

Derek:

Let's get her done. Yeah. So Bruce, drivers. How do we find drivers? Let me let me just kinda up the question a little bit.

Derek:

I think that from time to time, an organization or maybe even a person in in development in their life can get into a virtuous cycle. You know, we've referred to it as the flywheel before where the driver generates things that, boost the driver. Mhmm. So I'm wondering if, like, if if we should always be trying for that, and if, you know, trying to tap into a natural driver, find what accelerates a driver might be worthwhile for both, you know, product sales, product development, product sales, and other stuff that we wanna try to do.

Bruce:

Well well, thanks for for having me back. I I feel that, yeah, our last, conversation, we we kinda paused it, but there's so much I think it's an important question to to talk about drivers. And and, you know, as we discovered the last time, it really can be applied to pretty much anything in our our lives, personal, professional lives. Yeah. And I I do think, Derek, there is a bit of a virtuous cycle.

Bruce:

And what I spend a lot of time thinking about is, you know, just practically, though, what can you do? I'm kind of a systems person, and and I really wanna get down to, I guess, you know, what are the drivers of coming up with drivers? Like, what can you actually do, you know, tomorrow or today for it? And and I kinda thought back to my, you know, my my background and career. And there there's actually four things I came up with.

Bruce:

And I I'd love to hear your guys' thoughts on that. But I think if you are trying to be we talked about how do you come up with these drivers or identify them. We really talked a lot about pattern recognition. So it's really understanding the pattern of a business, whatever it is. Understand you gotta understand the individual pieces, then you gotta put all the pieces together, and then you gotta see the big the jigsaw puzzle's done.

Bruce:

Then you step back and you realize which ones are the fundamental pieces, the drivers of that. And we talked about that takes for, you know, thirty could take thirty years in the case of, you know, recognizing it for our our different businesses, if you're a CA or developing, new products. And then so in terms of actually trying to accelerate that process, I think one, there's some really simple things you can do. And, and one thing that I realized is that if you just talk to other people, you know, so it's kind of that, you know, that virtuous cycle is, you know, we have this kind of an idea of what our personal, you know, what our strengths are, but we get so much more about talking to other people and that exchange of ideas. And I think that's that's really critical as in you're starting to see, you know, you're asking yourself what are the drivers in your business, but if you talk to other people and other businesses, you ask them and they have a perspective.

Bruce:

And if you're really open to those ideas, I think it really is virtuous. There is this this one plus one equals three where you start seeing the patterns, you know, a bit a bit more quickly. So really, it's kind of just exposing yourself to a bunch of, you know, different areas as much as possible. And that just for me, it meant reading a lot. And actually, I got a lot of in, lot out of business biographies.

Bruce:

You just you'd learn people like talking about themselves, and you can kinda see patterns in successful people's lives. Maybe they would talk about about the failures, but the failures are really in instructive, as well. And then, of course, talking to your customers, you know, that that's huge. Right? You need to you need to validate what you're you're trying to do and and talking to, you know, to customers, colleagues, peers.

Bruce:

And one just real practical thing is that there's all these, like, peer advisory groups out there. So people belong to EO or YPO or there's McKay CEO forums or Tech Canada. And you join these groups and you join these peers and you kinda share your business, family, personal experience. You just share experiences. And I've been a part of these, you know, kind of informally with some friends, and they're incredibly valuable.

Bruce:

Like, once you kinda get a, you know, the cone of confidentiality and you trust people, you can learn a lot. And I think that just kinda reinforces what you're learning in your own life. And so I think you can accelerate the process just by opening and learning more. So that that's one. I'd love to hear your thoughts on that.

Bruce:

I got three others too.

Derek:

Yeah. Well, that's a great one. And, like, we totally like talking to people too. We're not so good about the cone of confidentiality because we're because we're podcasting. True.

Derek:

But we all the people who listen to us are all trustworthy. It's fine. Right?

Bruce:

Yeah. You can trust they are.

Reed:

You can trust us, Bruce, really.

Derek:

You can you can say anything. So so one of the great things about that exchange of ideas, you know, obviously is when we're talking about drivers, we're talking about our assessment of a cause and effect. And, if you if you wanna see if it's real, it's nice to look at it from a different angle and, you know, we can't take ourselves out of the equation.

Bruce:

Yeah.

Derek:

So it's great to have you know, and and sometimes the question is, hey. Do you think this is a driver? And often, like, your, you know, your course of study, it's it's not that. You're still looking for patterns, but you're getting these these different viewpoints and different inputs.

Bruce:

That that cause and effect statement is really important because one of the other ones I think is really important is to you you need to be able to articulate what you think that driver is. You gotta be able to articulate the equation, the cause, the effect, what you think it's gonna be. So that hypothesis of your driver, you're really you need to validate it or invalidate it. Right? You need to test it.

Bruce:

And one way to test it is is, you know, is just to throw it out there to get feedback on it. So part of the challenge, I think, is how do you articulate it? Like, how how do you how do you like, the ability to communicate, like, take something that's really complex, simplified a few key drivers. That's really hard. So how do you communicate it?

Bruce:

I think one way to do it is just to do it. Just get it out there and talk to people and develop that skill set on the communication piece. Then it's more easy. If I tell you know, thirty seconds on something and you can give us a feedback as opposed to, well, it's, you know, thirty minutes. You know, it's it you've gotta be able to communicate.

Bruce:

So I think that coming up with a hypothesis is one thing, but actually testing it out is critical, and you have to be able to communicate it effectively. So I think that's that's very important as well.

Derek:

Well, let me let me catch you on that. Even the fact that there's a hypothesis, is a is a step that most of us don't wanna take. Right? Like, a lot of people, they like, they don't wanna make the take the position. They don't wanna explicitly state the cause and effect.

Derek:

It's kinda like, you know, maybe this is a is super random, but I think I read a survey that one third of Canadians, their retirement plan is to win the lottery.

Bruce:

I have heard that. I wonder if that I hate I hope that's not true.

Derek:

Yeah. I have

Bruce:

heard that too.

Derek:

But to make to make that into a personal hypothesis statement, you know, I think that I will win the lottery and live off the earnings for the rest of my life. When you state it like that, you're like, you know, I don't I don't think so. Like, so even just the act of, you know, saying it or writing out the statement and saying, you know, cause, effect, and then step back and say, do I really do I really think that?

Bruce:

So Yeah. And then you can break it down into into pieces.

Derek:

Yeah. So there's a But I there's a I also Go ahead, Reid.

Reed:

Earlier in other with conversations with other people and also, I think, with you, Bruce, last time we talked, we were there's often been mentioned that the drivers can only be seen or are best seen in hindsight or to look at and go back and say, oh, those were my drivers. Is it profitable? If that's the case if that's the case to say that drivers are are best recognized in hindsight, then is it profitable to recognize them in the present tense? Is it necessary?

Bruce:

Yeah. Absolutely. It's not. I think it's it just seems obvious in hindsight. Know, you need that experience.

Bruce:

Oh, yeah. Of course. That's, you know, doing this for thirty years since intuition. Like, I don't even have to think about it. So I think it's just obvious in hindsight, but I think it's you can if you can recognize it sooner, earlier, it's incredibly powerful.

Bruce:

It's kinda like the compound interest piece is that you can accelerate your business much more quickly if we only know and if it only done this or that. And so kind of this is all, I think, is also related to like, it's very complex. So we don't see we don't recognize it because there's so much noise and there's so many things going on. So I think another kind of an interesting idea is are you familiar with, like, the term mental models? You know, like the I mean, Derek, I know you are.

Reed:

I imagine models all the time.

Bruce:

Mentally. Yes. Of course. Okay. That's good.

Bruce:

So things like, you know, the Pareto principle or Peter principle, whatever, just like, they're just rules of thumb out there. And, I think that I I start I realized that I that we use these subconsciously, but I think if we're more conscious actually understand different mental models, what they allow us to do is to understand really complex situations quite simply. There's there's kind of that scaffolding that allow us to understand something, and they act as this filter for all the noise to allow you to see the signal in the in the noise. And so one just as, or like just before or this morning, in fact, I was dealing with a startup, and they've really complex sort of business. And they've got all these things going on, and it was pretty complex.

Bruce:

And so there's this kind of one of these mental models is the multiplication by zero. And so it's basically what it is is that if you multiply seven numbers together, you have seven, you know, variables and equation, it can turn out to be a really big number. And that's what the startup was doing. They had all these individual pieces, and if they do it all really well, it's they're gonna have a it's a lot of success. But if one of those numbers is zero, the answer is zero.

Bruce:

Right? You multiply anything by zero, it's zero. So the point I was trying to I use this kind of mental model to communicate to them and say, you know, if any one of these individual things fails, everything fails. And they're like, oh, yeah. That you're you know, that's something we really gotta pay attention to.

Bruce:

So it's just kind of an example of the mental model. And there's a guy I don't know if you I mean, I might even mention in their earlier podcast, but there's a fellow by the name of Shane Parrish who, has Farnham Street blog. And he's actually written a book. I actually even have it here. It's called it's called the great mental models.

Bruce:

And it's been really helpful for me to, like, just read through them and understand them, and they kind of allow you as a filter for it. And so I think it it allows you to take all those puzzle pieces, the thousand piece puzzle, and then it allows you to kind of say, let's get rid of the noise here and come up with a fundamental one. So I think that the mental model concept is actually something that is that is can be very valuable. You can learn them and you can apply them, and it just acts as a filter or kind of scaffolding for for thinking.

Derek:

Okay. So, Bruce, this is a very meta conversation now for a couple of reasons. One, because you told me that when is this, like, over a year ago? And I came up with one, and it's called essential dynamics, and we're talking about Frameworks.

Bruce:

A little bit different than a framework. I said, no. I needed a framework.

Derek:

Yeah. And so

Bruce:

mental models are different. Their kinda mental models are widely accepted. They're like rules of thumb.

Derek:

Right. But there's but there's a relationship between them. Right? Because it is it is a filter, and it is a way of talking about things. It doesn't solve the problem.

Derek:

It's not the same as the Pareto principle, which I was reading about this week. And, we're gonna Shane wrote two books, and I started with the second one.

Bruce:

Just announced the third.

Derek:

Which was, which is on physical sciences and the models that we learned from those. I've I haven't read the first one yet. But I'm gonna plug Shane's books on a podcast because I would like to be on his podcast to talk about essential dynamics. Yeah. Wouldn't we all?

Derek:

You know? So hey. Yeah. There's that. But the idea and and so drivers is part of the mental model, which is, you know, this is something that we say is happening.

Derek:

And then we look for it, and then we see what we can do about the world because we're looking for trying to advance a driver.

Bruce:

Yeah. You're right. And there I think there's a a second part of this, which is just as important, and it's it's, and it kinda goes back to Shane Paris talks about this too is, like but analyzing those, like, we're kinda speculating what the driver might be in a business. And how do you analyze it? Like, how do you know it's the right driver?

Bruce:

And so, Derek, you'll remember when we shared an office at that company, we had a director in the business who was old guy who older fellow who was a successful business person. He had a military background. Concept of the hot wash up. Do you remember that? And so the idea was, Reid that that, in the World War two, these bomber missions will go from England and over to the continent.

Bruce:

They'd have their bombing run, and they come back. And they would do a hot wash up. And the hot wash up was basically a debriefing while the plane was still hot. And they just did a very quick review about what went right, what went what went wrong just as a quick analysis of it. And I think that's really, really important is that we're speculating what a driver might be or what my framework is for product development or essential dynamics.

Bruce:

We need to test it. We don't do a very good job of actually testing these things. Like, we need to actually analyze them right after they happen. And I think if we did that with everything in our business and, you know, and how we run our businesses, if we did a better job analyzing our decisions, it actually would play, it actually I think it helps accelerate the whole process of of coming up with the drivers.

Reed:

But if you're doing a hot excuse me. I'm I'm still stuck on the hot wash up only because I knew you would doing a hot if you're doing a hot wash up, isn't it obvious that I mean, it's better to be doing it than than to be shot down in in France. So

Derek:

And something went well.

Reed:

So something went well.

Bruce:

I mean You wouldn't do it if you're shot down in France.

Reed:

That's right. I mean, if you're shot down in France and somebody said, well, let's do this hot wash up now. I don't know. I think they would they would be, laughed out of France. So,

Derek:

I

Bruce:

Well, it's, you know, it's an obvious thing to do to do that quick analysis afterwards. Like, it's common sense. How many people do it?

Derek:

Doesn't get that done much.

Bruce:

Yeah. Like, we never we so it's the matter of discipline of actually, doing it.

Derek:

So so the the the mental model I use on that one, Bruce, I used to have hot wash up, but since I took some Roy Group training, it's the feedback model. Three questions. Yeah. What went well? We came back from France.

Derek:

What was tricky? 17 holes in my B-fifty two. And what would you do different? I would,

Reed:

not go to France.

Derek:

Not go to France. That's right.

Bruce:

I would Run away from the RV.

Derek:

Take out that, anti aircraft battery and then we'll go again. So but for Bruce, it's an excellent point. I know one of the things that you're working on and many in product development is let's get that minimum product out and get it tested and get feedback on it.

Bruce:

Build, measure, learn, loop. Yeah. Minimum viable product.

Derek:

Or in, in, TQM or whatever it was, plan, do, check, act. And the check is the check is pretty important that we do stuff. And, Reid, we were talking about notes Yeah. After a after a player rehearsal. Right?

Reed:

Yeah. I'm I'm thinking in those lines too. I'm I'm thinking this is something we do do. We do a hot wash up after every rehearsal.

Bruce:

Yeah. Yeah.

Derek:

Yeah. And so and so but it's not as it's not as common. It's not as in baked into the way we do stuff. I was just thinking about the iteration. You have three kids.

Derek:

I have four. You know, you keep trying to get it right. You know?

Bruce:

Well, I have a friend who I ran into recently. I went to high school with. He's in his mid fifties, and he has a two year old. And I'm like, oh my god. I can't even fathom having a young young kid now.

Bruce:

But he has said because he actually had a children adult children now from a previous marriage. And he said to me, he goes, yeah. Well, I kinda get a do over. So I don't think I did a very good job with the first kid. So now now I I love this dearly, but now I get to do it right with my two year old.

Bruce:

I'm like, okay. Well, that's one way of looking at it.

Derek:

That's one way of looking at it. So, Bruce, you said you had four things. Remind us what the two are and see if we can get the four before we run out of time.

Bruce:

Well, one was always be learning. The other one was the the mental models. The third one was the hot wash up.

Derek:

Okay.

Bruce:

Then the fourth one we actually talked about, it was just kind of a testing. Like always try to test the hypothesis that you're you're out there. And it's I find that, you know, when a a driver or all these things we're talking about, the hot wash, well, that's obvious. Like, it's it's, like, so obvious. There's, like, well, why am I paying you to help me with this driver?

Bruce:

That's obvious. But it's actually really difficult to get down to that obvious piece. And I think to do that, you've gotta communicate it. You've always gotta be testing it, and then you kinda narrow in, narrow in. And it does does take a long time, but I think that's maybe a sign of a dry an actual drive of your business.

Bruce:

It's really obvious when you you think about it,

Derek:

but it takes a long time

Bruce:

to get there. And it

Derek:

holds up. And so, you know, we talked about setting the hypothesis. One of the great things about, a hypothesis is you have to formulate it so it can be tested. Yeah. It has to

Bruce:

be something that

Derek:

you can test and then have feedback and say, oh, we you know, we didn't think that was gonna happen.

Bruce:

Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah.

Bruce:

You have to you have to predict what you think is gonna happen. And then how do you test to validate or invalidate that that hypothesis for sure? Scientific experiment.

Derek:

You know, I use that with, with companies trying to explain, why you would wanna forecast your financial results. It's not because you can predict the future. It's so that you have to pin something so you can say, well, it didn't happen because and you gotta kinda own it as opposed to just explaining, you know, the randomness of of the world. Doesn't make you a manager. You're only manager when you say I'm gonna do this so this happens.

Derek:

And then and then do your wash up and say, oh, it didn't happen.

Bruce:

Well, and I think that for, for, you know, ask a start up, show me your business plan or your slide deck, and I know it's gonna be wrong. Like, they never come true. But, actually, I wanna understand how they think because when it doesn't turn out the way they thought, do I have the confidence? They have the ability to pivot along the way to do something that that is gonna work. So it's the business plan or the slide deck is more about how are you thinking about it.

Bruce:

Are you good at pattern recognition? All the things that we're talking about, they're really valuable skills that, that young people should learn. I wish I learned I was, learned about it when I was half my age.

Reed:

I have one last question, Bruce. I want to know if you're ever intimidated by a particular challenge in a business, and you do you ever say, well, I think this business, you're right now doing as good as you can do. This is as good as it's gonna get.

Bruce:

That's that's an interesting question. I don't know. I I think that it the thing that concerns me about any business that I've invested in or that I look at or advise, it really comes down to the people. And, you know, are the right people there? Are the key people gonna leave?

Bruce:

You know, why do we put up with the people that are the pain in the rear end? You know? Like, we should have got rid of them sooner. Like, I I really I think the biggest amount of angst that I suffer in any business thing is really people related.

Reed:

Well, thank you. Eric, we're gonna have to, talk to mister Alton at some point in the future because, he's going to be prime minister.

Bruce:

See season three.

Derek:

Okay. Do I get to come back in season three? Bruce is gonna be on season three. He'll be our first person to be on. Okay.

Reed:

I don't know. That.

Derek:

Yeah. Anyway hey, Bruce. Thanks so much.

Bruce:

Great to be on. Questions. Thank you very much.

Derek:

Great to

Bruce:

be on the whiteboard. Really make me think.

Reed:

Awesome. So nice to have you here. Bruce, if people wanted to get hold of you, how would they do so?

Bruce:

For product opportunity mapping frameworks that I have, they can go to www.product-mapping.com, or they can look me up, on, LinkedIn.

Reed:

Great. Derek, same question to you.

Derek:

Derek Hudson dot c a is a great way to get a hold of me, and I'd be interested in anyone's questions.

Reed:

Well, that's great. For Brynn Griffiths, engineering in the studio, Bruce Alton was our guest and our guru of, essential dynamics are and all dynamics, really, but mostly essential ones. And that's Derek Hudson. And I'm Reid McCollum reminding you to consider your quest.