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We share the processing we have done following the Mother Hunger episode and the interview with Dr. Siegel. We share how understanding what Dissociation is actually helps us deal with both false beliefs from shame and the protective denial that comes with it. We explain how Dissociation isn’t just avoidance of what was bad, but avoidance of the realization we couldn’t do anything about it. This tells us, we learned, what the wall of terror is and how to get through it.
Diagnosed with Complex Trauma and a Dissociative Disorder, Emma and her system share what they learn along the way about complex trauma, dissociation (CPTSD, OSDD, DID, Dissociative Identity Disorder (Multiple Personality), etc.), and mental health. Educational, supportive, inclusive, and inspiring, System Speak documents her healing journey through the best and worst of life in recovery through insights, conversations, and collaborations.
Welcome to the System Speak podcast. If you would like to support our efforts at sharing our story, fighting stigma about dissociative identity disorder, and educating the community and the world about trauma, please go to our website at www.systemspeak.org, and there is a button for donations where you can offer a one time donation to support the podcast or become an ongoing subscriber. We so appreciate the support, the positive feedback, and you sharing our podcast with others. We are all learning together. Thank you.
Speaker 1:The response to our podcast, the last one, has been crazy good. I'm so glad that it was so powerful for so many people, and I'm really proud of everyone who have been sending us messages or talking about the podcast episode with each other or listening about mother hunger and talking about, like, what a big deal it is to recognize some of those things. And I know some of us have worked on that a lot for a long time, but it was nice to have new words and fresh perspective on what that's like and why. For us, it was really a big deal as well, and we did a lot of journaling about it, and we'll talk about it more with the therapist. But it was a really big deal.
Speaker 1:And to sort of hold us accountable for therapy and for writing in the notebook and for communicating with each other, I kinda made a list, and I wanna talk about it. Some of this is from the podcast that hasn't aired yet with doctor Siegel, which is coming up next. And I'm still having to edit that one, but it was really good. And the two together on the same day was just mind blowing. It I can't explain not just how good each interview was, but how insanely intense it was to have those particular interviews on the same day.
Speaker 1:So there's just five things on the list, but they are so big and so powerful and so game changing as far as our understanding perspective and working through some denial at some levels as well as giving ourselves permission to say, this was really hard. What happened to us? And to start working through it together internally and also with the therapist. So the first one was needing, especially as a child, is a state of being, not a moral trait. That's huge.
Speaker 1:Do you understand how huge that is? Like, it's a really big deal. All the shame stuff we've talked about and all the false guilt that we've talked about and all these things about negative thoughts or cognitive distortions or thinking errors, whatever you wanna call them, these false beliefs that are like, I am bad. I am worthless. I'm terrible.
Speaker 1:Everything is my fault. All of this is my fault. Like, all of those thoughts, whether it's about our own selves or in response to a particular experience or whether that's in marriage parenting or, obviously, even the childhood stuff. Like, the like, how many of us fight that, and how often do we feel that? So to put together what she was sharing about how we need because we exist, that that's just part of being alive and not, like, a moral trait.
Speaker 1:Like, we're not good or bad because we need. We just need in the same way that we have fingers and toes and hair. Like, it's crazy to think about. And it feels kind of silly because it should be such a simple thing, but it's not a simple simple thing. It's a big deal.
Speaker 1:So just like I have eyes and hair, I also have a need for air and playtime outside and food and clothing and safe living conditions. All of these things are not all of these things are as real as anything else, including the need for comfort and safe touch. And if you wanna talk about that, you need to look up a concept called skin hunger. Have you read about that? It's kind of like the mother hunger idea, but skin hunger is like the craving to have safe touch, not sexual touch and not about not anything that is about anything other than just the safe touch itself.
Speaker 1:So, like, for example, like, after your parents die, nobody hugs you anymore. Maybe the maybe hugs are triggering anyway. But, like, because you're a person, you still need touch in whatever way is safe and appropriate for you. So whether that's a handshake or a high five or knuckles or whatever, like, you can do the elbow dab like they do in the NICU because you can't touch anything in the NICU. Right?
Speaker 1:And so they do a high five with the elbow. Like, you can find a way for safe touch in a way that's appropriate because you have skin hunger. Your skin as an organ and as part of your existence because you're human has a need for touch. But there's a context for what feels good and what feels safe. Right?
Speaker 1:And my daughter who's super, super active and crazy, silly, and all over the place with her body does not have like, safe touch to her means something different than it means to my son with autism. So finding out what that means for you is gonna be different than what it means for me, but it's absolutely a part of what is going on and what is part of your life. Right? So it's not a bad thing that you need. Needing in and of itself is not a bad thing.
Speaker 1:It's not a moral thing at all, actually. So for all those reasons, this is a really huge piece. But, basically, it gives you permission to exist. You need sleep. You need play.
Speaker 1:You need air. You need food. Like, all these things that are so basic, even comfort or attunement or reflection of yourself in another, like connection with people in safe and good ways or a partner who is safe and kind, all of these things are just part of your existence. It's not asking too much. It's not selfish to want it.
Speaker 1:It's not anything other than normal. You guys were normal. How crazy is that? Normal. Like, that just feels like a really big deal.
Speaker 1:Then the next piece was about understanding my parents were wounded themselves offers enough space to maybe finally say directly that I was wounded too without excusing them. So this is a tricky one, and it's super triggering to even kind of try and talk about. But, basically, there's enough room there understanding that the parents in our case and whatever other abusers like, obviously, there's something wrong with them. We are not the ones that there's something wrong with us. Something was wrong with them for them to become what they did, for them to overcome all of the internal barriers that they did to be able to do what they did.
Speaker 1:So something is off there, and understanding that does not excuse what they did. It does not make it okay what they did. We're not talking about that. We're just saying that it helps us in our context personally to finally be able to say, this is what happened. Because in the past and until now, saying that it was not okay because it was equated with either getting in trouble or being punished by or all of those sort of internal rules that are either directly or indirectly imposed on us that we do not have permission to say that they did something wrong.
Speaker 1:Or in some cases, lots of cases, we're not even allowed to say that anything is wrong. So this is huge because it allows us to understand just enough of the context of how things came to be to be able to look at our own pain. We don't have to solve their pain. We don't have to deal with that or even look at it more than being aware that it's there, but it opens up enough space that it's no longer about anything other than having permission to say that this happened and it was hard. That's why it's huge.
Speaker 1:And then number three, the mother hunger lady, Kelly McDaniel, and then doctor Siegel also in a different way. They both said that survival for a child literally depends on the caregiver, which requires a turning toward the caregiver, so the mammal brain. Right? And, like, the the limbic system. While the natural response to danger is to get away, which is in the amygdala.
Speaker 1:But the problem is that because children are in danger from caregivers already, then they are trapped before anything else even happens. So not even looking at abuse yet or any specific memories, just understanding the social dynamic of the abuse dynamic of what is going on between the child who's being abused and the caregiver who's doing the abuse, the abuser themselves. Even before you get to what actually hurt or what actually happened, this is already messed up. Because the person who's taking care of you is supposed to protect you and provide comfort and safety and meet your needs physically and emotionally. And so you naturally your brain knows to to turn towards them.
Speaker 1:And your body biologically and this part, doctor Siegel explains really well. So if you've not listened to the episode with Kelly McDaniel about mother hunger, you need to. And listen and pay attention for the upcoming episode with doctor Siegel because he explains this so well. The other part of your brain, the reptilian part of your brain, and he explains why it's called that, knows to get away from danger. But when but this is what the problem is, and this is actually disorganized attachment because at first see, this is another reason it's huge.
Speaker 1:Because at first, I just thought there were lots of us, so we all had different kinds of attachment, and that's why it was disorganized because y'all, it's feeling disorganized up in here. I'm just saying. It's kinda disorganized up in here, but that's not what they're talking about. They're talking about that there's no way to organize the information and respond in a consistent organized way because you want to return to or respond to or turn toward your caregiver that's supposed to meet your needs and keep you safe and offer comfort. But you can't, not just because they're not doing those things, but because they are causing danger by not doing those things and by whatever else that they actually did do that was abusive.
Speaker 1:Right? And so there's this conflict between you can't turn towards where you're supposed to go, but you also can't get away from the danger, and so you can't turn you can't you can't come or go. You're stuck there. And so that's number four, that there's not a good choice because there's no choice. It's a trap.
Speaker 1:The child, even infants, have to dissociate not just from the abuse. This is huge. This is huge. I wanna make sure that you understand. It's not just that you're dissociating from the abuse or from things that hurt or even from your body, which is also true.
Speaker 1:You are also dissociating from the choice itself. So, again, please listen to the Kelly McDaniel episode and the doctor Siegel episode because they go into this so much, and they talk about it so much. But you have to dissociate from the choice itself because there's no answer. There's no solution. And this is why we feel hopeless and helpless and afraid and, like, there's nothing we can do to get away or nothing we can do to make it better.
Speaker 1:And we feel that because it's true in the moment, in memory time, when it happened. Now time can be safe, and now time can be different. But that's why it feels that way. Like, you guys, this means we're not crazy. We are not just annoying people that can't get our act together.
Speaker 1:Like, that was our actual experience biologically. It's such a big deal. So number five is that dissociating from the beginning is a protective process, not just from the abuse, but from the choice of how to respond to the abuse because there's no good solution of what to do. And doctor Siegel's the one who talks about that on the next episode, so listen to that. But, oh my goodness, it has changed everything.
Speaker 1:And I sent the longest text in the history of the world to the therapist, and I was like, I'm sorry that I am interrupting you on a day that we don't even have an appointment, but I have to tell you what's just happened. And it was so big and it was so huge Because it's not just about the structure of dissociation. Like, here's what DID looks like and how there are different alters and personalities and and why these have this role and what the structure is like and who does what. This is the process. Like, if that's the structure, this is the process of how it happened in the beginning, and not just for DID, but also for OSDD or for anyone with even other trauma that maybe don't dissociate to the same degree, but it's still a dissociation and a response to trauma.
Speaker 1:And it just is mind blowing to finally understand how this piece works. And it removes so many layers of denial because you can look at it objectively while also feeling it. So it's like a left brain thing and a right brain thing because it's a scientific thing of your experience. Like, it totally describes what you're actually feeling. That's why there's been such a powerful response to that episode.
Speaker 1:And the kicker, the kicker, you guys, this piece is huge. The kicker is that it's dissociation itself that kept us from going crazy. Doctor Siegel talks about this, and it's so good because if there's no answer and there's no choice about how to respond to the trauma, then our choice is only to go insane because there's no way to respond. There's nothing we can do. But dissociation protects us from that.
Speaker 1:And so those of you who, like myself, feel every day all this shame about being so crazy, like that's only a TV thing, or that's a made up thing or this can't be real or this isn't really how it goes or, like, what decade is this? That's not a thing, and that's just crazy people on TV. This is what is real, and it's not just that we're not crazy, even though we dissociate. It's that dissociation itself is what protected us from going crazy. Do you see like, I wanna pull my hair out?
Speaker 1:Do you see how big this is? At least for us, it was huge. So huge. I can't even tell you. I copied the text and sent it to the husband because I was like, my brain is blowing.
Speaker 1:Blowing. And he's like, that's not how you say it in English. And I was like, I never get it right, but that's how huge it is, and you need to know. And and, you guys, you have to know this. Not only did I send it to the therapist and the husband, but I also sent it to my new friend for reals.
Speaker 1:So my new friend that I love and adore, that we are all getting along with and who has been very safe and we are learning how to be friends with, we sent her the Kelly McDaniel episode. And so we outed ourselves about the podcast. We talked about dissociation a little bit. There's some, like, appropriate sharing with good boundaries, except that now I'm talking about it on the podcast, so that's you know? But that's all I'm saying about it.
Speaker 1:It's just my experience of opening up and sharing that because it was huge. And she, with her own stuff, thought it was amazing. Like, it was a safe and positive response. We were able to share that piece, which links to a whole lot of other pieces, but also talk about it in a real way with a friend. And that is a big deal.
Speaker 1:It is huge and progress, and we are learning. I think. I think it feels good. Not only that, and I haven't talked about this yet, but it happened last week or the week before. Ugh.
Speaker 1:Time. I don't know. But we totally outed ourselves to the ISSTD. Well, we didn't. Doctor e did.
Speaker 1:But we talked about it, and we took a vote, and we did it. Because with all the doxing and everything else, we just need to be able to have those resources and trust them and practice just being more out and open and doing things our own way with good and safe allies, and the response has been amazing. We have received so many emails that are positive and supportive appreciative, and nothing has been shaming or ugly or hateful. Like, it could not have been better timing with the things that we learned from that podcast episode and what we're working on in therapy right now and trying to make this new friend, it is the most if you're gonna use their word, like, the most integrative experience that we have had ever to have this many of us on the same page internally and being able to access the outside world in a congruent, consistent way. Yes.
Speaker 1:I just used the word congruent. So there you go. That's what you get from learning how to talk to other people inside you guys. You get smarter. So so it's a big deal, and that's what we're learning is that dissociation didn't just protect us from what happened.
Speaker 1:It protected us from dealing with what happened. And here's the next point, which technically which technically makes it number six. But if dissociation is what protected us not just from what happened, but from dealing with what happened, which maybe everyone else already knew. But I seriously, two years into this or two decades depending on which timeline you're looking at, I only just figured this out yesterday. Okay?
Speaker 1:So it's huge. I feel like I can't even tell you how huge. Like, there's not an analogy to tell you how big this is to me. So if dissociation is how the initial response to deal with not having a choice for how to respond, if that's what that is, and it moves from process to structure, like becoming a habit and get so defined and so refined developmentally as we grow up that that's why we got a bunch of people in here, you guys. Like, I finally get how the process of it connects to the structure that becomes.
Speaker 1:I don't know how to say that better or differently. It's just powerful and amazing. But then it becomes a habit because we are good at it, which is what the therapist was talking about weeks ago when she was talking about stop making new people for new things. Like, we just can work on this together. That is not her words.
Speaker 1:Those are my words. So part of dealing with dissociation or going to therapy is not just learning new coping skills to deal with life. It's learning how to respond to dealing with life. It's learning you have choices to deal with life. It's learning things like how now time is safe so you have permission to respond or you can seek out positive and healthy caregivers who will help provide comfort and safety and how to do that for yourself and how to get away from danger or see red flags in bad relationships and all those kinds of things.
Speaker 1:That's the undoing of the dissociation. It's crazy. Like, my brain my mind is blown of how big this is. I know this is not the most intelligent podcast ever, but it's so big, and I can't not be emphatic about it. And I have to just keep talking and saying it so that we can keep listening and process how big it is and hold on to these pieces because we don't want them to slip away.
Speaker 1:So we're saying them over and over, and we're writing them over and over because we want to hold on to them, and we need to keep because these pieces change everything. Starting with understanding we are not unwell. We are not crazy. Our brains kept us from being unwell. Our brains kept us from being crazy.
Speaker 1:Like, I was sobbing, and not because I had some scary memory and not because I was drowning in some piece of grief. I was crying for the first time in my life just because of the immense relief that I felt. It was amazing. Amazing. There is it is like hope.
Speaker 1:It is why we need safe people. It is why finding real friends are worth it. It is why healing comes through connection. But then and doctor Siegel goes there. He goes there, you guys.
Speaker 1:He gets into this a little bit. This is why the workbook is all about avoidance because here's what I learned. Here's the next piece, which I guess we're on number seven. See, I told you there were five, and so far there are seven. Welcome to my world.
Speaker 1:This is what I learned. You know, if you've been listening to the podcast, that we have been working on avoidance. Well, I mean, like, forever, because we're really good at it. Right? Like, that's what dissociation is.
Speaker 1:But specifically in the workbook and in therapy, we've been working on avoidance, like, specifically for months, months and months and months and months, like, maybe a good six months at least. And mostly, all we've learned so far is that we're really good at avoidance. And so it's kinda been hard, but with some exposure and some specific practice and even making new friends, like, we're trying we're trying to confront some things and stay with some things, like, stay present and some mindfulness and all these different things to help us recognize avoidance. But here's the thing. Here's what I learned this week from Kelly McDaniel and doctor Siegel.
Speaker 1:I learned that I'm not just avoiding bad memories from the past. I thought that's what it all was. I thought I'm avoiding the others inside because I don't wanna know about them because I don't wanna know what they know. That's true. It's totally true, you guys, but that's not all of it.
Speaker 1:When you understand what dissociation actually means and how it is protecting you from not having a choice in how to respond to trauma as opposed to just thinking it protects you, like it's a way of dealing with it. You can't deal with it. That's the point. You cannot deal with that level of trauma. And so dissociation protects you from having to deal with it.
Speaker 1:When you understand that, what dissociation is actually doing, then you also understand what avoidance is actually about. We're not just avoiding the hard specific things to remember or feeling bad. We're avoiding the actual terror of not having a choice. We are avoiding the actual terror of not having anyone to protect us or comfort us or keep us safe. We are avoiding the terror of not having any actual way to get away.
Speaker 1:Do you see how big that is? Like, it's maybe a small difference, difference, and maybe it seems too simple for you, or maybe you already understood it. But I just now know this, and we just now figured it out. And this is why everything else is hard. It's why going to therapy is hard.
Speaker 1:It's why talking once you get to therapy is hard. It's why remembering anything is hard. It's why talking to the others is hard. It's why remembering that now time is safe is hard. It's why choosing healthy relationships and friendships is hard.
Speaker 1:It's why being healthy yourself or parenting different than you were parented is hard. All of those layers are because to do anything associated, see, different than disassociated. Doctor Siegel talks about this. But to do anything associated with those past layers and memory time, you first have to get through the wall of terror, the barrier of terror. Does that make sense?
Speaker 1:That's why it's so hard and so scary, and that's why your brain does all the things that we learned about the brain with the polyvagal. When you try to go to therapy and then you can't talk, even though you had all these amazing things to share before you got there? Oh, I made a rhyme. That's why it happens. That's what it like, that's what explains it.
Speaker 1:It's huge, and it makes so much more sense. But that also means you're not just a lazy slacker because therapy is hard. It's biology. You're not just a wimp because therapy is hard or because trying to face things is hard. It's biology.
Speaker 1:We are avoiding the actual terror and uncertainty because of not having a choice in how to respond to what happened. So that's why it's so huge to learn that we do always have a choice and now time is safe and that there are safe people in our lives and that we can get away from bad decisions. That was just a Freudian slip. That we can't get away from bad environments or bad relationships or dangerous situations. That's why we have to learn all of that.
Speaker 1:Like, for us, it's taken two years. Like, we haven't even talked about anything. We've spent two years on now time is safe. But now everything is exploding and changing and unfolding because this piece has finally clicked, like, all the way through me. It was like pulling out the last Jenga tile from the pile of our tower, and the tower has fallen in a good way.
Speaker 1:In a good way. It is not too much. I'm not saying I'm all comfortable. I'm not saying it was pleasant. I'm not saying I'm looking forward to engaging in therapy from this point forward.
Speaker 1:I'm saying it feels so much better because I had no idea how much energy it was taking just to keep up the wall of terror. And now that wall is falling down, and, yes, it's gonna be scary, and, yes, it's gonna be hard, and, no, I don't have a clue what that looks like or what it means or how to help. Like, that's gonna have to be a different episode because I'm terrified, and I have no idea because this is the wall of terror, you guys. Like, it's it's it's not fun. It's not fun.
Speaker 1:But do you know what that means? Here is why there's hope in this. Why it matters that all these pieces make sense once you connect them together like paper cranes. Like, here is why it matters. Here is why it matters.
Speaker 1:Matters. It matters because if we can get through the wall of terror, then everything on the other side of it is not as bad. The memories are not not gonna be fun or pleasant or good. It doesn't change that. But they are in the past.
Speaker 1:It already happened. And if we can get through the wall of terror in just approaching them and approaching those who hold them, then interacting with them or actually talking about it with the therapist who we love and adore is not gonna be as hard as the actual wall of terror. So when we have to face things or when we feel that we're doing some avoidance, we can stop and take a time out and be like, listen. Here's what's scary right now is the wall of terror, and I get that there is a wall of terror. But what it means is but where the wall of terror comes from, what it was built on is not having a choice and not having a way to get away and not having help or comfort.
Speaker 1:And those three things are no longer true. And that's why the wall of terror can come down because we are safe. We have good safe people in our lives. We have the husband and the therapist and friends. We have ways and people talk about.
Speaker 1:We have the podcast. We have journaling. We have the notebooks. We have therapy itself. We have support groups online.
Speaker 1:We have a group we can go to in the city. These are powerful, powerful things that mean we can be protected and be comforted and be kept safe, and we can do all of those things ourselves. And we know how to get away when there's danger. We just proved it in Africa. And we can get away from unhealthy relationships we relationships or from life being out of balance or know how to deal with things we can't get away from like having a sick child, which means we're dealing with it, which means we are not avoiding, which means we are dissociating less, which means we can face the things on the other side of the wall of terror.
Speaker 1:The wall of terror is in memory time. You guys, you guys, you guys, the wall of terror is in memory time. It just feels like it's in now time. Oh, I can't tell you. I can't tell you.
Speaker 1:I feel like like, this is how big it is. This is gonna sound crazy. This is so big that the other day when I was talking about it with my friend, and I looked down at my hands while I was texting her, but for the first time in my life that I have awareness of, okay, I looked at my hands while I was holding my phone and I thought, oh, those are my hands. Who does that? Do you know who does that?
Speaker 1:Babies do that, you guys. Babies do that. I just found my hands. You're supposed to find your hands when you're like an infant, and I just found my hands because I fought my way through the wall of terror. Bam.
Speaker 1:Ka bam. Take that, people. Like, it's so huge. I can't tell you what a big deal this is. So if we can get through the wall of terror and the uncertainty of facing that one piece of not having any help or protection or comfort or a place to turn to and not being able to get away, which sounds like two pieces, but the conflict is the one piece that both of those are happening at the same time.
Speaker 1:If we can get through that, then all of the bad memories and all of the difficulties on the other side of that wall, even if it takes us years and years, are not going to be as hard as facing the wall of terror in the first place. Because now time is safe, and we are not alone, and everything is already okay. And that's why we can do it afraid. And do you know what the therapist said when I told her all that? She said she was proud of me.
Speaker 1:She replied back to me on text and said, I am proud of you. And you know what I said to her? I said, well, that's fine, but I am proud of myself because I have hands, you guys. I found my hands. How crazy is this?
Speaker 1:Like, I am all of sudden living in my own skin. It's like someone turned the lights on. The world is in three d. The grass is greener, and not just because it's been raining for three days. Something has physically changed with this whole mental breakthrough, which is very different than a mental breakdown.
Speaker 1:I have faced the wall of terror. I am a therapy ninja. I mean, I know it's not always gonna be that easy. I kinda have to keep doing it and keep doing it and keep doing it until I get better. But each time, it's like pulling out one of those Jenga pieces.
Speaker 1:Right? Like, each time, there's another hole in the wall and the wall can start coming down. And it's powerful and it's huge and it's liberating. And here's the thing. If you think about the boundaries boundaries again or the castle walls around you or whatever that is, like, this is what moves walls.
Speaker 1:This is what lets in fresh air. This is what gives you some takeout. Like, food can be delivered. You can get nourishment. Good can come in instead of only keeping bad out.
Speaker 1:Because when you're only keeping bad out, no good can come in either. So now I can keep bad out, but I'm letting in good, and it is crazy sauce. I don't even know what to say, but I had to share all that because I'm super excited. So stay tuned because the next episode is gonna be doctor Siegel, and you need to hear it. They do not know this, but the Kelly McDaniel episode and the doctor Siegel episode, powerful together.
Speaker 1:I'm so excited. Thank you for joining us with System Speak, a podcast about dissociative identity disorder. You can listen to the podcast on Spotify, Google Play, and iTunes, or follow along on our website, www.systemspeak.org. Thanks for listening!