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Long Game: A Heated Rivalry Podcast is a re-watch and deep-dive podcast dedicated to Heated Rivalry, hosted by Declan and Silvan. In each episode, we revisit key moments across the series, unpacking the slow-burn tension, character development, and emotional beats that make the heated rivalry world so compelling. Through thoughtful discussion, close reading, and a fan-informed lens, we explore themes of competition, intimacy, identity, and growth over time, celebrating not just the heat of the rivalry, but the long game it takes to truly understand these characters and their relationship.
New episodes published every Sunday
Silvan (00:00)
Hi everyone. Welcome to Long Game, a heated rivalry podcast. So I'm really excited for today's episode because we are going to be talking about the psychology behind heated rivalry. Now you might be thinking what qualifies us to talk about it? Well, I teach psychology at a university level. Declan is actually a trainee counselor and we have a very special guest joining us who's a clinical psychologist.
So speaking of our special guests, thank you so much for joining us, Neelam.
Neelam (00:31)
Thank you so much for having me, I'm so excited to be here.
Declan (00:34)
Yeah, we're really excited because so much of these characters, they're so well written, they're so three dimensional that they come with really interesting sort of psychological implications, you could say. But just in terms of the show, like what what did you think when you first watched it? Like what was your what's your general sort of impression of it?
Neelam (00:48)
Hmm.
Well, honestly, just immediately hooked. I should say though, the reason and the way that got into the show is literally because I follow Sylvan on TikTok. And I saw clips from your podcast and I was like, okay, well, I want to listen to this podcast, so I need to watch the show. But weirdly before then, it hadn't really like entered my socials at all. And I don't know if that's because I'm super straight, it just had, you know what I mean? Like it hadn't. And then I obviously...
Declan (01:04)
Thank you.
No, we don't.
Neelam (01:23)
began to hear things about it, but really it was this podcast that got me into it. And then I watched it, loved it. Like watched one episode, had to do something for a day and then watch the next five episodes in a day and was voice noting Sylvan all the way through. But yeah, so much fun.
Silvan (01:38)
Literally, I got voice notes from Neelam and just called her immediately. I didn't even wait. And she was like, OK, I've got one more upset. like, I'm going to stop talking so you can actually finish the show.
Neelam (01:43)
Hahaha.
And I did, and I did, I was gonna go to bed and I said he was gonna go to the cottage man, like what am I to do? Exactly, exactly, and I was already like crying at the end of episode five so like I was, I was in, I was in.
Declan (01:56)
Easy.
Silvan (01:58)
How do you stop at episode 5? You have to go.
Declan (02:00)
No, no, you
have to keep going.
Yeah, there's no stopping once you start. It just gets its claws in you so quickly. And I always think it's just down to the way that it's paced out. It's so fast. It's like that. And the time flies so quickly. mean, some of these episodes are like over 50 minutes and you just cannot tell whatsoever because you're just flying through the content. Yeah, I think everyone sort of has that three o'clock in the morning experience where you're just
Neelam (02:14)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Yeah.
Declan (02:36)
Not able to sleep.
Neelam (02:39)
Yeah, for sure. And it's also, interestingly, a show that I want to rewatch and I never, like quickly, I haven't done it yet, but I want to. And I never feel like that about shows, especially not so soon after I've watched them for the first time. So there is something like uniquely addictive about this.
Declan (02:56)
Yeah, percent.
Silvan (02:58)
Definitely there's a rewatchability, but I like that you talked about the addictive nature of the show. So for both of you really, I mean, there's so many psychological themes that we're going to cover today. So I hope we have enough time for all of them. But if we start off with this addictive nature of the show, why do you think it is that people are not just drawn to the show, but want to rewatch it again and again? Because I think it was Crave or one of the stream platforms that released their stats quite recently about
how many times people were rewatching the show and which episode they were rewatching the most, for example. So what is it about the rewatchability and the addictive nature of the show that keeps viewers just engaged?
Declan (03:44)
I think it's that people are starved for authenticity and there's so many different aspects of the show which are authentic. First of all, it's a small production from a small production company. It's made by a tiny team that had a very reduced budget and it was made with a lot of love with a book that is not particularly popular at the time outside its own sort of niche.
⁓ And it's about a story which is just purely about the struggle of being in love and how society puts certain expectations on you that sort of roadblock that love. ⁓ And it's just cathartic, I think, for people to experience like a genuine representation of love in a sense that it's not being corrupted by anything outside of it and it's not ⁓
What's the word I'm looking for? It's not cynical. So it's not, it's not cynically made. It's not plastic. It's not fake. It comes across so real. And I think that's what draws people in. I think so much of TV these days is just a product and it feels like a product where this feels like it was made with sort of love and passion and creativity. And I think that's kind of why it grips people.
Neelam (04:47)
Mm.
totally agree. think, yeah, it is, after everything, the most crucial part of it is that it's about love and that's like the most universal feeling in the world. And I think no matter who's watching it, there is emotion that you can connect to or emotion that you can, that takes you back or, do you know what I mean? It's that, it's that relatability as well. And, but I also think as well as that, there's the other elements of it. That's a kind of outside of the storytelling where six episodes,
of like no filler, you know, like every moment is so necessary and so wonderful. Like, you know how you have a show and it's like a second screen show, like this isn't that. This is a one screen full attention show because the craft of it, it's every single scene tells a story and you get so invested with their love story so quickly. I think it's that, like it gets you at the heart.
Declan (05:45)
Yeah.
Yeah, 100%. I like that it is so condensed and it does feel that way. Like there is no fat to trim in this show whatsoever. Like every scene has its purpose and has a reason for being there and it's efficient in delivering what it's supposed to do. And I think that's what gives the show like that quick pacing. So it does because nothing feels like it's, this is wasted time. Like this is dragging on. really, I go check my messages. Like you don't get that.
at all whenever you're watching it. So yeah, it's just really, really, really well paced though it is.
Silvan (06:38)
Yeah, I really like, Neelam, that you talked about this is a you give your full attention to the show kind of thing, because there are so many shows that I watch and I'm scrolling on my phone. Like the new Bridgerton was just released. I'm on my phone watching Bridgerton until Benedict has like a topless scene or something. ⁓ so what is it that you feel you have to give your full attention to the show? Like what do you feel you would miss if you were watching it more casually?
Neelam (06:44)
Mm-hmm.
Yep.
think it's those moments in between, you know, like it's the moments after they've time together in hotel room, or it's that moment between texts and it's the subtle facial expressions, it's all of that, because that's what you relate to, right? Even if you can't relate to dialogue or direct experience, it's those things of like, I think the bit that always sticks out for me is when Shane deletes the text of we didn't even kiss and they're like that?
whoa, you know, and it's just watching him pre-writing that text, writing it and after it's that and it's like if I'd missed that, I wouldn't care as much but it's it's laden with so many moments like that and that's yeah it's the human experience right.
Declan (07:35)
Goodbye.
Yeah, yeah, that's that's actually a really good point as well. It's you're afraid to miss something. So you are because everything has a meaning. Every little flick of the eye, every little ⁓ gesture, movement or text message has like a greater meaning to them in this relationship. I think it's because their relationship is so. Nothing is ever done directly like these guys do not discuss things directly with each other at all. just.
Neelam (07:59)
Mm-hmm.
Hmm.
Declan (08:22)
completely refuse to until episode 6. So you are relying on the different forms of communication that they're giving off to get the clues of what they're actually trying to say to one another or what they're actually thinking and feeling. ⁓ Because this is a book adaptation and you don't have the privilege of reading the character's So they need to try to express in different ways and so you're now like psychoanalyzing them as you're like watching them trying to figure out
Neelam (08:39)
Yeah. Yeah.
Declan (08:50)
His eye went left for a moment there, he looked at him, kinda funny, does that mean that they're actually in love or am I delusional? Like it's, it's, it's those tiny moments you just have to pay attention if you want to catch them.
Neelam (08:52)
Mm-hmm.
Okay.
Silvan (09:03)
And I really like that you talk about it. in a way, you know, these are the Easter eggs that Jacob Terny sort of drops in the scenes. And we talked about, you know, in episode six, where you got the heated rivalry title card and when it expands, you hear a loon, for example. And then in episode three, when Kip goes to buy the banana socks, you know, you have the roses movie poster in the background in the bodega.
And there were these little things that the fans have been so attentive to. And I didn't even notice them until I started watching these TikToks and reels about them. And other people have been watching them and they've been so attentive and they've been paying attention. And that to me has uncovered so many different layers to watching the show.
Declan (09:48)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Neelam (09:50)
think that's such an interesting point that you raised though, because I think that's another reason why it's so addictive because as soon as it gets some traction, there's like that parasocial element of people getting invested in the actors, right? And like, and that's kind of where my TikTok is right at right now. And I've got like, that's a huge part of why I want to rewatch because I'm now watching it through the lens of, of Connor and Hudson and thinking about them as actors in this show and all of that. Do you know what I mean? So it's...
Declan (10:12)
Mmm.
Neelam (10:18)
Yeah, I think that plays such a big part in it. And I think for this show more than most shows. And actually, the last time I think this happened, Silver and you said in like episode one of the podcast, that Game of Thrones, but I don't think it was. I think it was the summer I turned pretty. Because last year was crazy. It was the same thing. Like it. Like, to be honest, good. It's not that good.
Silvan (10:32)
Yes.
Declan (10:35)
I that whole thing.
Silvan (10:41)
No, but what
you did was you got caught up in it. like, because the episodes for the Summer I Turn Pretty dropped weekly as well, you were having conversations with everyone about it. And I was sending people links, watch this TikTok, watch this reel, watch the show on Amazon. And in a similar way, I've seen discourse on TikTok about fans who have sort of been watching from the beginning and waited for those weekly drops. then...
Neelam (10:45)
Yeah.
Mmm.
Yeah.
Mmm.
Mm-hmm.
Silvan (11:08)
fans who have discovered it more recently and binge watched it. And there was this collective energy when it first aired. Not that it doesn't have that now, but there was this collective energy as the episodes were dropping. And so when you get to episode five and Ilya's like, I'm coming to the cottage, like everyone lost their shit.
Neelam (11:27)
Yeah.
Declan (11:29)
Yeah, everyone got so excited for the next episode because like, my God, we're putting them in a room together and they can't leave for two weeks. This is going to like pay out in dividends. Yeah. So that was so exciting. I think with the online streaming and the way that that works now, I think people got a little too used to getting episodes and seasons just dumped out all at the one time so they could binge it.
Neelam (11:32)
Mm-hmm.
It's gonna be great.
Declan (11:58)
⁓ and I'm kind of glad that we're going back to weekly releases because you do miss the building of the, of the sort of suspense of the expectation. Like you don't really get that anymore. I remember when Game of Thrones came out, I used to stay up to two o'clock in the morning so I could watch it with the American release. That is how excited I was for it. And then you went home, you went into work the next day, tired, but ready to discuss the episode with everyone else. He was also tired and stayed up to watch it. ⁓
Neelam (12:16)
Mm-hmm.
Declan (12:27)
And I think you also get to break down the episodes easier. mean, whenever, you know, let's say you go now and you binge Breaking Bad, right? So you go into the office and you're like, I watched Breaking Bad. It was great. What did you like about it? Well, hold on a minute. So I take it episode by episode and then sort of, you know, we'll discuss this for four hours straight. It's like, it's not a good way of sort of discussing a show in like a really nicely flowed way.
If you've consumed it all at once because you miss little moments that you got to watch and you don't get to think back on them and appreciate them properly because you've already filled your mind with the next episode and whatever came after that then. So it's a good way of like being able to go on and be like, let's talk about everything and specific to this episode that happened. It was so great. I love this moment. That was amazing. That had me in tears. And then you can discuss the next episode. It's a whole new conversation. Whereas if you just go in, I watched that show. That show was great.
Silvan (13:13)
you
Declan (13:27)
Okay. That's, it can allow us for that structure a bit better, I think.
Silvan (13:33)
Yeah, and one thing that we had a conversation, Declan and I had a conversation about was the spoilers and how quickly those came up. Immediately after the show, you saw the fan edits. So we talked about having to not go on TikTok, not go on socials until we watched the next episode. And so I'm wondering how you manage that Neelam scene as you sort of started watching them later. How did you avoid spoilers?
Neelam (13:57)
I just didn't get them. genuinely, like I didn't know a single thing going into this. Everything was a surprise. I hadn't seen any, I'm coming to the cottage. Do you know what mean? I saw nothing. Everything was new to me. that's, which is interesting in itself, cause like it shows you how tailored our 4U pages are. And yeah, yeah. So like, yeah, yeah. So yeah, like it wasn't an effort. just didn't have exposure to them.
Declan (14:14)
100 % your algorithm.
Silvan (14:25)
And so I'm hoping your algorithm has been changed to quote wicked for good because that's where Declan and I are. It just reels off.
Neelam (14:28)
it's different.
Declan (14:35)
never stops.
Neelam (14:35)
Yeah, I'm
done.
Declan (14:36)
It kind of feels like an unhealthy obsession at this point. ⁓
Neelam (14:39)
But
that's what I mean, it's like, because social media is so present now, right, it really lends that parasocial element where it's difficult not to become like a little bit obsessive over what's going on outside of it. And then like that becomes intertwined with fan edits, becomes intertwined with like clips from the show and all of that. And it's like, yeah.
I think the 2026 specification of this means that we're consuming media in such a different way and it's like a full body thing, which is great, but also probably kind of unhealthy at the same time.
Declan (15:13)
Yeah, this immediately as this show came out, I was immediately thinking, ⁓ the parasocial relationships here are going to be so out of out of control. a hundred percent came to be. People are so obsessed with these actors private lives at this point that it's probably very worrying for them. Obviously, their lives have completely changed in the space of what, two months? I mean, this show came out in December and it feels like they've been around forever. ⁓
Neelam (15:23)
No.
Declan (15:43)
but the way in which people are constantly questioning things about them, in terms of especially their sexuality and stuff like that, they're like, that seems to be a topic up for discussion for everybody. Apparently, even though neither of them are at all wanting to sort of discuss this, they've came out and said it, the directors come out and said it and pretty much every, you know, side actor or side character who plays a role in the show has said it as well.
that it's not really any of your business what these guys are like in real life. So what do you think of that? Like that sort of, how do you sort of view that sort of strange sort of attachment that people get whenever they see these fictional characters and they attach it to the real life actors?
Neelam (16:29)
Yeah, it's kind of like, I see it as kind of an extension of the worst parts of social media, of like Instagram, whatever, where it's that blurring of lines between what's real and what's not, and then that alongside a sense of entitlement, I guess, because we view so much of other people's lives on social media, and it feels like it belongs to us a little bit, but it doesn't. And it's hard, I guess once you get so swept up in that, can be hard to distance from that again, because
you're learning everything about everyone all of the time at the touch of a button. So then when something comes along like this and where Hudson and Connor are so, their presence is so good and they're so like, they're amazing, they're so enigmatic and you feel like you get to know them. And because the show as well has done such a good job of us feeling like we've gotten to know those characters, it feels like it's for us. It feels like it's ours. And yeah, I think it...
Declan (17:25)
Mm.
Neelam (17:28)
It's really easy for people to feel entitled to knowledge that just isn't theirs, it's none of their business. We forget ourselves and yeah, danger to social media, right?
Declan (17:39)
Yeah, yeah, it is that like check yourself kind of thing. It's like I think Jacob Tierney said it very, if I keep it at the best way anyone could, which was ⁓ Shane and Ilya are for the fans, Hudson and Connor are for themselves. That's that's it. I don't think people actually appreciate how curated the two of them actually are in these interviews. Like someone pointed out to me
Neelam (17:43)
Mm.
Declan (18:08)
⁓ from like a video or whatever, like a comment someone left on a video was like, name one solid personal bit of information you understand about Hudson Williams and his life. He was a waiter. Okay. He's his family. How many siblings does he have? Where, like, where do they go to school? Where like, you could hunt for those details if you want, but he doesn't tell you.
Neelam (18:28)
Hmm.
Declan (18:37)
anything about himself. You can tell that he's fun, he's a bit wacky, he's that sort of friend that you'd be concerned if you had to go and drink with them because they would just turn on the a while later on. But also endlessly entertaining and super super fun to be around, I can imagine. You get that energy often. But ultimately you don't really know many personal details of his life because both him and Connor have curated their sort of
Neelam (18:45)
Hahaha
Declan (19:04)
public persona in a way that you're not supposed to and that's by design and that is completely fair to them like you're getting entertaining parts of them and they're giving you a little bit just be happy with that like you don't need to you know see the details of their marriage certificates like it's and people are that obsessive that it comes down to like details like that so yeah i think yeah go ahead
Neelam (19:26)
And isn't that like, no,
isn't that fascinating, but also kind of devastating because like, correct me if I'm wrong, but this is their first real huge breakout role, right? And they, they know now or they've been like prepared to know that that's what they need to do because of how crazy it can get and how protective they need to be of themselves at this point in their career. And yeah, it's,
Declan (19:36)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Neelam (19:54)
Yes, I find it kind of devastating, but props to them for being able to do that, but sad that they have to, you know.
Silvan (20:01)
Yeah, and on a psychological level even, how do you think someone adjusts that quickly to the exposure that they're getting to the, you know, we talked about our social relationships, is that there is an obsession over the content that gets curated around them. How do you think someone adjusts to something like that happening in such a short amount of time? Because most
Actors, celebrities have years to develop this relationship with the public, but it's almost like they've been thrust into it.
Neelam (20:41)
I'm not sure you do. To be honest, I'm not sure you do. I think you cope as best as you can and you're also so dependent on the support around you, but you're never gonna be able to just manage with that. just doing the best you can and things might become a bit more normal over time. But I think it's, yeah, it's gonna be a huge shock, like no matter how prepared you are.
Declan (21:07)
Yeah, there will definitely be like a transition period where they're going to need to sort of find a way to live with this new version of normal and probably make some choices in their lives about what they're willing to give up and what they're willing to fight for. ⁓ Because if they try to fight at all, they'll just burn out. But if they feel like they give too much away, they'll just probably lose themselves. And I think
you get that with a lot of celebrities which are thrust into the highest of the spotlights. I if you look at people like Britney Spears, what happened to her was horrendous. it also just reminds me of the contrast now actually between young stars compared to the older ones and the way that they were treated when we were growing up. Britney Spears was tortured, so she was. You have Diana who was literally
died in an accident as result of paparazzi chasing her. Lindsay Lohan mental breakdown in such a public, huge way, lots of pressure. Amanda Bynes was the exact same. You could argue as well, Kanye West, he's constantly having very, very public episodes, so he is where he's also hounded and it's not a very healthy situation. Even though he says some very testable things, he can sort of
they'll see where that's definitely not helping the situation. But then you compare it to today's stars where Zendaya and Tom Holland are a great example. I know very little about their personal lives and they have been a couple for what, five plus years? We know nothing about their relationship really. You don't see them together. And that's
Neelam (22:57)
Yeah.
Declan (23:04)
Anna seems to work for them, we're assuming because they're still the camera and they're getting married and they'll occasionally show up in like little promos for each other and they charge phones and stuff. And an orgo example would be think, Chapel Roan I think the way she handles paparazzi and fame is a much more direct way of doing what they're doing, which is hold on a minute here, you don't have access to everything that I am. ⁓
Silvan (23:19)
Yeah.
Declan (23:31)
I'm going to give you what I decide to give you. I'm going to give you chapel. I'm not going to give you the gear behind it, the girl that makes the art. And I think that's a healthier way of being hers might be more direct for some people, but I could still respect it for a way of her protecting herself. so I think I don't know if it's just because mental health awareness is a lot more prevalent and the industry has had to accommodate that. Or, you know, this is just trend for Gen Z ears or
sort of those late millennials as well. ⁓ So yeah, think the trends have definitely changed.
Silvan (24:07)
Yeah, and I think what you really hit home was with people like Chappell Rowan, what they're doing is they're establishing boundaries. Right? If you're a paparazzi, you're not going to start yelling at me because you need to take a photo. You're to act accordingly and I'm going to give you the photo, but there's a way that you're going to behave in order for me to do my job. And when you establish boundaries, it pisses people off. And that's what boundaries do naturally. If you think about any boundary,
anyone who's listening has ever said, it upsets somebody for a reason.
Neelam (24:43)
that denial of what they want over what someone else chooses to hold to themselves, right?
Declan (24:51)
Definitely.
Silvan (24:51)
This is how you know Neelam's a doctor. Like that was great.
And you spoke about attachment to the actors themselves, but I wanted to sort of
go on to a little bit of a deep dive into the attachment of the characters themselves or the attachment styles. Now I lecture in psychology and so this is the inner nerd teacher coming out. But for anyone who isn't familiar, there are four attachment styles and I've got notes just in case I mess this up. So you've got a secure attachment, which is sort of, and when we think about attachment, we think about like when they're children, right?
Declan (25:30)
Okay.
Silvan (25:31)
and then how that sort of expresses themselves in their adulthood. So you've got four types. You've got secure, you've got insecure avoidant, insecure ambivalent, and then the fourth one is disorganized. So thinking of the characters themselves, are any attachment styles sort of jumping out at you, either of you?
Neelam (25:55)
Yeah.
Declan (25:55)
Yeah definitely I think specifically
Ilja. ⁓ He could almost go in between both of the anxious attachment styles. Like he seems to dab in and out. Sometimes he does feel like he's trying to cling to Shane a little bit and then at other times he is acting a little nonchalant about the whole thing so he is and you can sort of see that
sort of in the nightclub scene i think you sort of get that idea where he's trying to pretend he doesn't care he's this over here in his arm i don't care that you're here like what do i care it's fine and my heart isn't breaking into you what are you talking about and he plays up this part of ⁓ you know the the face the mask that he wears which is i am fun loving don't give a shit guy and i am gonna
be here to party and I'm going to sleep around and do what I want. And he goes home and he doesn't sleep with anybody. Because ultimately that's not what he actually wanted and that's his space. So I would sort of put him in that sort of chaotic one more often than not.
Neelam (27:14)
Yeah, I think that checks. I think I initially thought of him as anxious, ambivalent type. ⁓ Because I was also, I guess, thinking about he grew up with two parents, right? Like, I can't remember when his mum passed away, like how old he was, but 12. Okay, so he grew up with her for most of his, well, for his younger life, but unwell and like his dad was always going to be his dad and like all of those pressures were always going to come. So
Declan (27:30)
I think
Neelam (27:44)
Yeah, I think chaotic for sure. I wonder if ambivalent because of that, like, obvious definite anxious, just definite definite anxious. Two anxious babies meeting. There's not like a hint of security in there. I think it's that like, the intensity of which he becomes like his, his, the intensity of his laser focus, I guess.
Declan (27:53)
yeah, yeah, we can agree on that. ⁓
Neelam (28:12)
But then the intensity of which he pulls away and it's like he doesn't trust himself in either moment. It's like he's all in or all out. And meanwhile, in here, it's just like different fireworks going on and some are not good and some are great. And just like no idea how to manage that other than like pleasure seek. Like he's just pleasure seeking over and over in like the shortest term ways that he knows how. So it is like getting laid or it is going to a club because that's what he thinks he needs. But then, like you said, at the end of the day, he's going home alone because he runs out of steam.
Declan (28:24)
Amen.
Neelam (28:41)
And I think that's, I think my association with being anxious, ambivalent type is that energy can't persist. Like it runs out quickly. It's the same with chaotic. Definitely the same with chaotic. Um, but yeah, he's so, he's so interesting. And I think that him having lost his mom at 12 and him having the dad that he has, that's just going to have further like pushed him from pole to pole. I think any sort of reasoning that he might've had in the meantime.
Declan (29:04)
Mm-hmm.
Neelam (29:10)
Like that's gotten harder and harder to do and especially he's become more and more successful.
Declan (29:15)
Yeah.
Silvan (29:17)
I really like your take on that because as you were talking, I was like, I was almost gravitating towards more an insecure avoidant attachment style. For me, it's that like you talk about that push-pull and I'm like, there is that avoidance element to him. He avoids getting closer to Shane for a very long time, for example. There's that avoidance of that emotional connection. He keeps Shane at a distance for a long time. He tells Shane about other women that he's sleeping with.
Neelam (29:26)
Interesting.
Silvan (29:47)
I know there's more layers to that than we probably have time for, but there is a criticalness that he would have grown up with and been exposed to that I think he internalizes and then projects out himself. You know, the can't do math bit is the funny bit, but that's still...
Declan (30:01)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
I it's only occurring to me now that Ilya mentions that his mom wasn't really always happy which tells me that she may not have always been a reliable parent either. So maybe he never really had a secure attachment style at all because his mother wasn't able to be there for him to meet his needs in the way that maybe she should have.
just because of what she was going through and what she was suffering. And then to lose the little security that he did have with her, where she seemed to have met his emotional needs, by what he says anyway in the show, the book's a little different. But yeah, I think that's a sort of thrust him into this really messy relationship with his father then who
is completely avoiding his emotional needs in their entirety and seem to be pushing his physical needs but only to the point where ⁓ he's a success. it's yeah very tough parents Ilya has and I don't think they've been very you know beneficial in turning him into a particularly trusting person we could say.
Neelam (31:23)
Yeah.
It's so interesting what you said about his mum just then as well, because I think if we're thinking about very classic like Ainsworthian ⁓ attachment theory of like, you know, the ambivalent style is when your mum sometimes comes when you cry, sometimes doesn't come when you cry. And that being really unstable when you're growing up. It's almost like, it's interesting because the stability almost must have come from his dad, because at least he can be certain that he's not going to be there. You know, he's never questioning.
Declan (32:00)
can protect this behavior.
Neelam (32:02)
Exactly, there's a predictive behaviour which has continued through his whole life. But like you said, without the comfort of there sometimes being someone there. And then once that's gone, all you have is predictable, but this isn't serving me.
Declan (32:16)
Exactly. It's not meeting the needs that he actually needs met at that moment in time. ⁓ And then you have Shane who is, I think, very hard to pin because I think he presents definitely dependent on what relationship you're talking about. I think he has, I would say, a secure attachment style with his parents, but he has that sort of ambivalent avoidance with Ilya.
Neelam (32:19)
Yes.
Silvan (32:45)
Yeah, because in a way, you talked about Ilya's dad being quite hard on him. And in a way, Shane's parents, at least his mom, can be seen as being quite tough on him in terms of a perfectionistic kind of trait. There is that element of you do things and you do it well, and you are the best, and you get the sponsorships, and you win the cups. And I'm going to help facilitate that for you.
Declan (33:02)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Silvan (33:16)
But there is still, I feel like there is this expectation to be good at what he does for Shane.
Declan (33:21)
Yeah, I think, I don't know, has Shane sort of internalized that now where he believes that he needs to constantly succeed to get approval from his mother or that seems to be the suggestion at the end of the show at Episode 6 where he is so afraid of disappointing her that he can't come out there because he
Even though he knows rationally that she is not going to judge him and she's going to be loving and welcoming, he seems to have internalized a sort of ⁓ reluctance to admit failure to his mother and to turn her down in a lot of ways as well. ⁓ I think you can also see that in the dinner scene where ⁓ they're at dinner and he is not looking to discuss relationships at all. She is trying to push him to this sort of Wimbledon match where, you might be the...
know, a princess or duchess or whatever, some Norwegian model or whatever. And he is pushing back, but when he sees that they're sort of emotionally responsive to them, he begins to appease. He's like, no, no, okay, like, no, we can go, we can do this. He's sort of compromising. He tried the enforcer boundary and then he was like, no, I'm not getting a good reaction off them. I'm not getting the
happy song, everything's fine reaction so I'm gonna appease a little bit here, I'm gonna bend my boundaries a bit there.
Neelam (34:51)
That's kind of why I think he's probably anxious avoidant. Like in my, that's my take on him. I think, and I think a lot of that is down to that last scene in episode six where he wasn't able to tell his mum. I, like, you know, the thing that sticks out to me most when I'm, when I was thinking about his attachment style is I, from everything we've seen of Shane, I was really surprised when he was like, I bought property and I was like, you, you who are under the thumb of your parents who are doing everything to appease them have.
Declan (34:56)
Bye.
Neelam (35:21)
have become this mogul, like what? Yeah, everything that we'd seen of him seemed like he needed to be a good representative of being a mixed race boy, of being an athlete, of being from a good family, and everything that he does.
Declan (35:22)
Ha ha ha.
Neelam (35:34)
And obviously there's, you know, there's links in with his OCD and lots of other things, but him needing to be seen to be eating well, him needing to represent the best side of himself when he's in ads. And I just, every single lunch, every single dinner felt like a, like a business meeting. And it's obviously that's where we are now. And he, that wouldn't have been his childhood growing up or like, or would it? And like, you know,
Declan (35:53)
Yeah.
Yeah, I mean...
Neelam (36:04)
You don't
get that successful if you've not been trying hard for a really long time.
Declan (36:09)
And that's you know, having read the next book that becomes a problem. it does. ⁓ Like Shane is constantly striving for perfection. He is a perfectionist and sort of every sense of the word. He has to be the best at hockey, has to score the most goals. He has to be the player of the year. He has to be the rookie of the year. And he gets genuinely like that first episode whenever Ilya has lost the sort of rookie of the year award.
Shane wins it and he goes and he sees Ilya and he seems withdrawn and quiet and he's so different. Shane's initial instinct is that, ⁓ he's clearly mad that I won and he lost because winning is the most important thing. Whereas he didn't once think that maybe, ⁓ someone happened. Like his immediate response was to go, ⁓ you're just jealous because you didn't win. What, you're mad because you didn't win this one time?
like it's a very childish thought sort of and he's not sort of reading the cues that Ilya has given up at all that this is a lot more serious.
Silvan (37:23)
And we know that he has difficulty reading cues. There's this sort of hint at a neurodivergence in the show. know Rachel Reed has now confirmed that since, but we know that Shane struggles with that anyway. But this sense of competition and being the best definitely stems from Mama Yuna. Like she's instilled that. Mama Yuna is the one who's buying the properties for him. Let's be honest. The boy just wants to play hockey and go to sleep.
Neelam (37:48)
Yeah. ⁓
Declan (37:48)
Yes.
Neelam (37:51)
Hahaha
Declan (37:51)
Yeah, yeah. He doesn't design it himself. He hires a designer to do it for him.
Neelam (37:56)
Yeah, high designer, high stylist needs someone else to do that labor so he can demonstrate success. And I think, and you know, I think they both, both Ilya and Shane like are chasing success, but I think that looks very different to them, or I think their drivers are very different. Cause I think I feel like with Ilya it's he wants to be the best because he wants to be the best, you know, whereas Shane is like, he wants to be the best because he wants to be the person who has achieved the most. And I think there's a difference there.
Declan (37:58)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Thank you.
Mm-hmm.
Neelam (38:25)
And I think with Shane that kind of comes through to all the other areas in his life. Like he wants to be the person who has property, who is successful in this area. He wants to be the person that looks the part. He wants to be the person who is doing X, Y and Z because that's what he's meant to do. Whereas Ilya was just like, I want to be the best. I want to be better than everyone else because I am better than everyone else.
Declan (38:40)
Mm-hmm.
Ha ha.
Silvan (38:48)
I'm so glad you said that because what he's doing is he's projecting this image of what society deems successful. And what society deems successful is not being gay in the show. And that's the struggle he has coming out. And we see that in episode six where he tells his mother, I really tried.
Declan (38:53)
Yeah.
Neelam (38:53)
Yeah.
Declan (39:10)
Try doing what?
perfect. Yeah, exactly. And this is the perfect son, but he is internalized this idea that being gay is wrong and that it's not, it interferes, it's messy. It's not a clean cut thing and it creates huge issues and it's very disruptive to his life and his image and to everything that he is sort of obsessed over building.
Silvan (39:14)
tried not being gay, right?
Neelam (39:15)
trying to be what society wanted to be the perfect.
Mm-hmm.
Declan (39:41)
the idea of someone coming in and threatening that to tear it all down is enough to give you a panic attack, which is exactly what happens then. He has a panic attack at the kitchen table whenever all this starts to come out because he starts thinking about the implications of how insane this is going to upend his image, his life goals, his trajectory, his plan. Yeah, his plan is completely disrupted. he comes across as someone with a
Neelam (40:05)
Is planned?
Declan (40:11)
20 year plan, not a five year plan, like, and any sort of disruption at all doesn't work, so it doesn't.
Neelam (40:14)
Yeah.
Silvan (40:20)
And this is why that relationship with Rose was so important to him. And it could have been Rose, it could have been another character, but Rose specifically, he really wanted to make that work. On paper, it made sense. It aligned with everything that he's been working towards. But to quote Selena Gomez, the heart wants what it wants. I'm going to get roasted for that.
Neelam (40:42)
hahahaha
Declan (40:42)
Hahaha.
Silvan (40:45)
So we see the complexities and the nuances with Shane and Ilya. Now, when I think of a more secure attachment style, I'm thinking about Kip specifically. I don't know how you feel about that. But Kip's relationship with his father is, we see it as very loving. Kip is very in tune with his father or,
is in more of a parenting style that Kip's father has that appears that Kip has a secure attachment style.
Declan (41:12)
you
Yeah, I love Kip's father. I think it's such a beautiful depiction of a father-son relationship and it is fully without judgment, completely full of love. is what every parent says they want to be, which is unconditionally loving, which is exactly how he presents himself. The way that Kip is able to go home and fall into his father's arms knowing that he's going to be lifted and cared for and
know, have someone there. ⁓ To the complete contrast then of Scott who has literally nobody to turn to. I mean, it's just a perfect way of demonstrating the differences in how they've grown up. Kip coming from his background of this really secure, loving family dynamic where his needs and his emotional needs are met.
mean his father doesn't let him leave the house without saying that I love you. Yes, I say I love you back. That's sort of like reinforcing that love and affection has allowed him to form his own connections with people as well. And he out of all the main characters in the show has the deepest friendships. he does. is surrounded by friends all the time. There's when he's in a scene, he is in a scene with a friend.
with a co-worker that he gets along with, with a long-term friend, with his buddies at the bar. He has such a large social network. Whereas we never see Shane or Ilya with any friends outside of the ones that they're talking about in hockey. They are their work colleagues. then Shane eventually acquired Rose as a friend and Ilya has Svetlana. ⁓
And she is a good emotional support for him. And you can see that in the sort of vulnerable moments whenever he's having them in the show. She is actually there. She is the friend that she needs to be. But I think it does speaks on that Kip being the one that comes from the most secure sort of family dynamic is able to surround himself with the most sort of full social support and social circle.
Neelam (43:35)
It's interesting that Kip, I agree, I think he does have the most secure relationship out of anyone we've seen, but interestingly as well, he still lies to his dad about where he's going at the beginning, about where he's staying and these sorts of things. I think that maybe doesn't, I don't think that speaks so much to attachment, but also just our need to keep something to ourselves, to figure things out by ourselves. But then, like you said, to trust that that person will be there for you and support you and comfort you when you're ready to let them in.
Declan (43:44)
Mmm.
Mm-hmm.
Neelam (44:04)
Yeah, and he's only able to do that because of the strength of their relationship and the strength of the support of people around him. Like Kip, more than anyone has people who advocate for him. And I don't think anyone else has that. Like, Liana's great, but I don't think she advocates failure in that way, you know? But yeah.
Declan (44:21)
⁓ Yeah,
it doesn't come across that she is very present in his life most of the time.
Neelam (44:27)
Mm. Mm.
And I'm sure that's to do with Ilya not allowing her to be as well.
Declan (44:33)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's a big element of it. I Ilya is like allergic to forming like meaningful relationships with people. he is like the only, I think we discussed this in one of the previous episodes as well. So when that, I think the only reason that Svetlana is friends with Ilya is because he was friends with her when they were children. I don't think if he met her now as he is now that he would be able to form a strong attachment to her in the way that he has.
⁓ so I don't know if the timeline of that is before his mother, but they were friends. It's implied by the father that, ⁓ she has had Ilya chasing her since they were kids. ⁓ so I think that relationship was already well established and obviously the events of Ilya's mother passing then.
I've completely closed him off from that. I can imagine that loss and being left without any emotional support has made him very weary of forming emotional attachments to people. And he also doesn't seem to express or emote his frustrations or his pain in an outward way until we get to those deeper moments of connection between him and Shane.
episode 5 at that hotel scene whenever they've had their break. was dating Rose and then they broke up and then they're meeting back in the hotel room for the first time. And it ends with Ilya crying because Shane is saying, I like you. And he's saying, no, you don't. And he's like, no, I need to make this clear to you. I like you, like you. And I like, I'm constantly thinking about you. I am, like I am attached to you at this point. And
of a sudden Ilya opens up in a way that he never has before and he cries for the very first time. we don't, well we do see, no actually the funeral point comes after that. So yeah this is the first time we actually see Ilya outwardly expressing what feels like an authentic emotion.
Silvan (46:39)
And I completely agree on your take with Elia. And I think when we think about attachment style, we think about how a secure attachment for someone like Kip, for example, will allow him to be able to be more explorative in his adulthood and form healthy relationships in his adulthood, but knowing that he has something called a secure base to return to. And so for Kip, his secure base is
is his father, essentially. I think for Ilya, his secure base is Svetlana. Wherever Svetlana is, that's where he will gravitate towards. And in a way for Shane, I'm thinking, what's his secure base? I feel like his parents would be his secure base, because he builds a cottage 10 minutes down the road from where they live. And
Anyone who's tried to move away from their parents' house knows when you do that, you go far away at first. Like, especially if you come from an ethnic household, you are gone. But there is this gravitational pull that eventually pulls you back for some people. ⁓ And so I think for Shane, his secure base is his parents. But when we think about someone like Scott, Scott, and we've talked about Scott, Scott is completely alone.
Neelam (47:29)
you
Silvan (47:57)
Scott has been completely alone for a really long time. He doesn't have the Elena, the Svetlana. He doesn't even have a Maria to send him girl, you know? So where do you resonate or where do you gravitate towards sort of Scott's attachment or where he might sort of fit into this landscape, Neelam?
Neelam (48:17)
feel like he is so avoidant, like so on the edge of avoidant that there's nothing typical like touching the iceberg. And he's been so alone for so long and he doesn't even have anyone to talk to about hockey other than his teammates who, you know, we're seeing all this stuff about him kind of like losing it and him not playing at his best and other people are not kind to him about that. And like, where does he take that? He's so...
like having to just brace his brace himself and get through that and he's it feels like he's had no one for so long and probably didn't have anyone who he could be emotional with when he was growing up that he's so out of practice but then in contrast when he meets Kit he's he's quite he's so intense he's really intense but he names it he's aware that he's intense he was like i'm gonna say all this stuff to you and i know it's gonna be a lot but he does it anyway
So there's like, there is some hope there still, but I figure it must just take him so much to get there. I wonder how many times he walked past that coffee shop before he actually went into the first movie. Like, I wonder how much mental preparation it took for him to get there. How much scripting, how much of that, putting himself, like empty chair work basically of like, how would I do this? What am I going to say? How am I going to be funny? How, like, what am I going to, you know, how, yeah, how did he get there? But.
Declan (49:26)
Yeah. ⁓
Yeah.
Neelam (49:44)
he at least recognized that it's something that he wanted for himself. At least he got, you know, he got to that point where he was like, I can pursue this.
Silvan (49:53)
I agree. Can you explain what empty chair work means?
Neelam (49:55)
imagine you're in a room with an empty chair and it's placing yourself in that empty chair or placing another person to that empty chair and practicing what the dynamics would be, what the dynamics would be between yourself, how you would interact with that, what you'd want to say to yourself, what you'd want to say to each other to basically practice, practice these tricky things that are
these big emotional cognitive blocks that we're experiencing and giving us a bit of room to practice something in a safe way before we go out into the big scary world and give it a go. And it gives you a chance to connect to that experience emotionally without any of the danger of doing it in real life.
Declan (50:38)
Yeah, it's quite a idea. it is, think, if you're someone that is sort of drawn to the arts and drawn to creativity, I think it's someone that you could get a lot of benefit from. I guess also a really good way of addressing sort of people you can't talk to anymore.
Neelam (50:58)
Yeah, so when you're alone, when you're isolated, like who else do you have but all you've got is an empty chair and you've got to have formed those scripts somehow.
Declan (51:03)
Exactly,
Yeah, so I wonder if Scott sits in his apartment and talks to someone in the back of his mind about his problems and issues, which, my God, that is so sad.
Neelam (51:14)
That's
Silvan (51:18)
No, but don't we all do that? Don't most of us have like an inner monologue where we replay an argument or when we're going to order a cup of coffee, we practice what we're going to say. So this doesn't have to be a symbolic empty chair. It's a dialogue that we continuously have for some of us in our heads that sort of prepares us mentally and sort of prepares us for one, disappointment, but two, for the anxiety that having that conversation might have.
Neelam (51:18)
I know.
Yeah.
Declan (51:25)
you
Neelam (51:28)
Yeah.
Declan (51:34)
Yeah.
Neelam (51:42)
Mm-hmm.
Declan (51:46)
Yeah.
Neelam (51:47)
Exactly.
Silvan (51:47)
And so
that's what it symbolizes for me for like the everyday type of interaction.
Declan (51:52)
Yeah, yeah, definitely. It can be such a useful thing. And I think so many of us just do it naturally. I think we do play out, like I definitely do. Oh my God. Like, and see when people go off script, what is going on? So if I go in and I am ready to order a burger at this burger place, I know exactly why it's going to go. I'm going to go, hello. He's going to say, hi, how you doing? Can I take your order? I'm going to get my order. He's going to say, no problem. Tap a tap a cart machine there. I'll choose there. There's a ticket number. I'll call you when it's ready. And then you walk up.
Neelam (52:03)
Mmm.
Declan (52:22)
and go, I'll have a burger. We're out of burgers. ⁓ What do you mean? ⁓ I'm like, the sweat starts pouring down. The face is going red. What do mean? This is not part of the plan. So I am definitely someone that does that religiously. So I can say it's definitely useful. So it is. is definitely useful, especially if you're someone that is quite anxious in social situations. I think it could be really, really helpful. So maybe it
Neelam (52:27)
And you're just like, brain can't compute.
Declan (52:52)
probably is a good idea for Scott maybe he does do this and this is how you use Baldur's Way up to the ask and keep out finally.
Silvan (53:01)
See, I was going to joke, and I don't mean this, but I was going to joke that Scott is probably disorganized only because he talks about serial killers and serial sprees and things like that in one of the first conversations. And that is proper psychopathic type of conversation that you would expect from a disorganized attachment style. I say that in jest, but we know he probably reads way too many murder books.
Neelam (53:11)
You
he's got nothing else to do! He's got no one to talk to! What else is he gonna do? What, he's got Netflix and books and hockey! Poor guy.
Declan (53:27)
⁓
So sad! ⁓ my god.
Silvan (53:38)
feel like you read him so well, Neelam.
Declan (53:40)
Yeah,
you're right. The boy doesn't even bear a thing.
Silvan (53:41)
Like, the boy needs a hobby.
Neelam (53:43)
Boys and therapy!
Silvan (53:47)
The boy needs therapy. I mean, we
can refer him to either of you very soon.
Declan (53:53)
So we have really been getting into it and we realised that this has been going on for a while and we still have so much more that we want to talk about with these characters. So what we're going to do is we're going to split this episode into two as well so that we get to cover everything that we want to talk about. So we're going to wrap it up here. Keep an eye out for the next episode coming out and we'll continue on from there. So yeah, keep an eye out for that.