Melissa Rappaport Schifman and Jim Schifman

Show Notes

This week I talk with Melissa (Lissie) Rappaport Schifman and Jim Schifman, the husband-and-wife team behind Project Hive Pet Company. We talk about what led them to start their business, how their individual backgrounds mesh well for the venture, and creating a company with a social mission while also being a capitalist, on this week’s Who the Folk?! Podcast. 
Plus, for a limited time, when you order from the Project Hive Pet Company website, use the code TCJEWFOLK15 to save 15% on your order.

The Who The Folk?! Podcast is part of the Jewfolk Podcast Network, a product of Jewfolk, Inc. Episodes are produced by Jewfolk editor-in-chief Lonny Goldsmith. If you have questions, comments, or a guest to nominate, send an e-mail to [e-mail]. For more information, go to TCJewfolk.com/podcast

Creators and Guests

LG

Host

Lonny Goldsmith

Host/Editor/Producer

What is Who The Folk?! Podcast?

This is the Podcast home of TC Jewfolk's Who The Folk?! Podcast. Hear from interesting Members of the Tribe from all over the Minneapolis and St. Paul area.

[MUSIC]

Welcome to this week's Who the Folk Podcast.

I'm Lonny Goldsmith, the editor of TC Jewfolk.

This week I talked to Lissie Rappaport-Shiffman and Jim Schiffman,

the husband and wife team behind Project Hive Pet Company.

We talk about what led them to start their business,

how their individual backgrounds mesh well for this venture,

and creating a company with a social mission

while also being a capitalist.

On this week's Who the Folk Podcast.

Plus, for a limited time, when you order from the Project Hive Pet Company website,

use the code TCJEWFOLK15 to save 15% on your order.

But before we hear from Jim and Lissie,

this week's episode is sponsored by TCJewfolk's annual storytelling show,

Stories from the Tribe.

Stories from the Tribe is a live on the Beema show

that features 12 women telling their true Jewish stories

that have a thread to being a momela,

whether it's their own momela or being a momela,

and includes all of the ups and downs,

highs and lows, laughs and tears,

that come with the real-life experiences of momela's in the Twin Cities.

Our second annual show will once again be MCD

by the incredible Jordana Green,

co-host of the Adam and Jordana show on WCCO Radio,

and promises to be a stunning night of storytelling.

Our show is Monday, June 23rd at 7pm,

don't miss this wonderful night of stories and community.

Get your tickets today at bit.ly/sftt-20205.

Melissa Rapplport, Shiffman and Jim Shiffman, welcome to the "The Photo Podcast."

Thank you for joining me.

Thank you.

Thank you for having us.

Very excited to talk with you both.

You two are the founders and creators of the Project Hive Pet Company.

Dr. Lewis, Dr. Treats,

All Manor of Dawn, Items, and I guess I'm curious.

What was the impetus for starting this company? Where did this idea come from?

Well, I should say Jim and I are a husband and wife team,

and we came from different backgrounds.

Jim has experienced in the pet industry.

Over the past two decades,

he has seen the pet industry grow. My background has been in sustainability,

we kind of merged the two together because we had not seen very many pet companies come up with

sort of better for you or better for the planet type of product.

We've seen it in food, we've seen it in cleaning supplies,

personal care products, but we weren't seeing a whole lot of innovation in the pet industry.

And so that's how we came up with the idea of Project Hive Pet Company.

We have a mission to save bees, so a portion of every purchase helps plant wildflowers to help

establish habitat to nourish and sustain bees.

That's amazing. And there's all kinds of companies that have the, you know,

by a pair of shoes, we'll find to tree somewhere, sort of, situation.

So that sort of social good isn't unusual in this space.

But Jim, given your, your expertise in the pet industry,

why do you think it is that the pet industry is sort of lagged behind where others have with respect to

sort of be friendly or environmental-ly, sort of,

conscious type products like this?

Yeah, thanks for the question. I will tell you that the pet industry overall is a pretty

antiquated industry about how to get a product from a manufacturer or from a concept

into a consumer's hands. It's through most of the pet products go through a distribution.

So if you shop at your local neighborhood pet store,

more than likely it's gone through two or three stops to get to that store and into the hands of

the consumer. When you talk about selling into the big box retail environment like a pet co-or,

pet smarter target, those sales typically go straight from the manufacturer to that retailer

then to the consumer. But there's several stops along the way because of the, this is the nature

of the pet industry where it's very costly. The can't, costly to move product is also very

challenging for individual stores to stock enough product from a manufacturer where they would hit

any sort of volume to efficiently move product. And the third thing is that food really drives the

pet industry, so pet food. And all the other ancillary products kind of ride for free on those trucks

to those individual stores because they're replenishing the pet food several times a week in those

stores typically. Okay, so are there certain levels of regulations that have to be met with the

pet industry, pet food industry, the same way there are food for humans and is that part of the

challenge that stores or manufacturers have with pet products? On toys typically or hard goods,

typically there isn't a whole lot of regulation on that. It's, I mean, a lot of it has to be compliant

with a child safety stuff because typically there's toys and other pracks on the floor in a home.

When it comes to food and even treats, it is highly regulated from a, from a organization called AFCO

which is specific to pets and how you get to label product. Each state has its own licensing

kind of process, so they're not all the same. And it's pretty, pretty much a hardship for small

companies like ours to manage that process is very, very challenging and expensive and time-consuming.

I'm really surprised that there aren't more nationwide standards as opposed to state by state.

Was that something that sort of struck you as odd as you were learning the ropes of this?

Yes, absolutely. Yeah, every state, as Jim mentioned, has its own process of registering every label

that, so if we have five treats, we have to register all five of them annually, we have to pay for

them. Many states require quarterly tonnage reports. We're not selling tons of treats. I mean,

we're putting in, you know, point zero or something in terms of the tonnage reports. It's quite

onerous for small businesses to do this. It really should be a federal process, not state by state.

I'm thinking about writing an article about that.

I mean, and that's the thing when you're a small business and you have to put a percentage like that

through those, it's, and I don't mean this pejoratively, it's a rounding error compared to some of what the

bigger companies are doing. That's any small business, I think, probably falls into that kind of level.

It's a hardship that you all face no matter the industry, right?

I think that's right. Small businesses, the chips are stacked against small businesses to

survive and flourish based on a lot of regulations that are meant for bigger companies.

And it's just, it's unfortunate that you're trying to start up this company. I mean, you have

started up this company, but it's unfortunate that you run into a level of just roadblocks that small

businesses aren't equipped to face and shouldn't be, frankly, because it's the two of you coming up with

this, the product and the idea. Right. I mean, it's from minimum order quantities for the packaging

or for the initial manufacturer. All of the startup costs just to get in it in the first place is

quite expensive, but then you have to get the volume in order to make it up. You know, and so the volume

is usually typically through retailers, but we are on Chewy and Amazon as well, but trying to get

noticed on those dot coms can be quite difficult. I mean, Amazon is its own expensive. Yeah, it's expensive.

You have to do promotional things in order to even get noticed. Really.

Not being somebody who runs small business more honestly has any interest in it.

Right. Hearing these stories from people is really, it's fascinating to learn this stuff and also

or you want to head in to do this. Yeah, I mean, one of the things we learned early on, you know,

we wanted to start getting noticed on Google and other search engines and we tried out doing banner

ads and other types of ads and it was like, you may as well be lighting your money on fire because

there is no return on it. And the pen industry is quite competitive. So to actually purchase

keywords, you know, pet toys, dog treats, things like that, it's very expensive. And when you're selling

things that are only 899, 1199, you don't have enough margin to cover those costs. So even if you

get a new customer that buys a treat or a toy, it's, you know, companies that offer products that are

$80 or $150, it might be worth it, but it's really tough for it to pan out financially.

And as a USA-made dog toy and dog treat company, which is one of the reasons why we started this

company was to use business as a force for good to make USA-manufactured products, which is

interesting, given the political environment we're in today about tariffs and everything,

we feel like what you were sharing about the cost of promotion and ads,

as the USA-manufactured company, we don't have the margin as if we were making it in Asia.

So we don't have the margin built into the product to support a USA-manufactured

dog toy or dog treat company, which makes it doubly frustrating from an entrepreneur to say,

we're doing everything that we have in our values to build something with a foundation that's

sturdy and structured to support USA-manufacturing. But yeah, we get whacked in the head because

our margins aren't there and it's much more difficult to survive against those Asia-manufactured

dog toys. Right, you're doing the thing that you feel like you read that can...

What? Business is here, they want products made here and yet it's...

Yes, that's not so simple. No, much easier said than done when you cut through all of everything.

Yeah, well consumers, we would like consumers to look at it and say, yes,

I want to support a USA-made dog toy or dog treat company and buy it, but people tend to look at

the cheapest offering. Which is like... Your pet is, you know, like a member of the family, right?

So I don't know why people feel like they should chip out on certain things.

Because I mean, yes, you could buy the cheap stuff, stuff to animal for your dog and my dog will go...

He's a seven pound markian. He will go through one of them really quick and leave it in tatters

and then never pick it up again. So great, we spent four bucks on it and we're going to spend four

bucks again and again and again, but at a certain point, I'd rather pay a little bit more for something

that's a better quality than what follow Bartho first time. Yeah, and the cool thing about our toys,

which they're not indestructible, no dog toys indestructible, what's great about our product is,

not always in the US, but we have the ability because it's nontastic, BPA-free, all the things that

you as a human care about for you and your children and your pets are your children. But we also

the ability to recycle, recycle number seven on the curb if you live in a municipality that has

a recycle number seven and you can send the toys back to us and we'll re-grind them into new toys.

So circular economy, we thought through a lot of kind of sustainable practices with Lissie's

expertise to bring this to life and so as an entrepreneur, we're learning, we're on this journey and

we're trying to be flexible with what is thrown at us. I mean, clearly a lot of thought has

gone into it if you're offering for people to send them back to you so you can remake them in

your toys. Where are they being made right now? They're being made in the US. In the US. Yeah.

Are like locally or in Minnesota or? They're not local in Minnesota.

I don't need the address or anything. I was just curious of, you know, how do you find just as a,

as you're coming up with this, how do you find somebody to manufacture this? Like what goes into that?

Well, in transparency when I started thinking about this with Lissie, my expertise in the

pet industry for the last 25, almost 30 years, I have a lot of contacts, a lot of trusted partnerships

in the industry that manufactures products and so that was where I kind of started and when I came

back and said, I found a manufacturer, my buddy's going to manufacture this for us in China.

And Lissie said, that's awesome. You can take our finances and invest it into your company that we're

going to support, but I'm not going to be a part of it. She goes, why would you start a company?

We're starting from scratch. We have our values about USA manufacturer. We have our values about

being sustainable, making stuff in China is an sustainable practice. So if you want to think about

making the US, let me know when you figure that out. It took me about a year to figure it out.

And we had a USA manufacturer that was making our products for us and we've since moved to a different

manufacturer for a couple of different reasons, but it's just networking and having contacts in the

industry. Yeah, I mean, you do this long enough, you meet enough people that you're able to piece

together the right approach to get things made. So I think the thing that one of the things that

impresses me the most about this is, so I love my wife. We have a great relationship, great partnership

in your writing our house, raising our kids. I don't think either one of us wants to run a business

here yet you two are doing that. I'm a good sales guy.

How do you do it? It's fascinating to me just that it feels like it's always on.

Businesses, there is no separation of work and work-life balance as it's all intermingled.

When you are business partners together. Yeah, I mean, I would say I think part of the reason why it

works is because we have sort of complimentary skills. Jim is in sales and marketing and has the

relationships in the industry and I am a writer, a sustainability expert and I have a finance

background. So those two areas don't overlap that much and we have a sort of mutual respect for

each other's expertise. So that's the good side. The difficult side is drawing boundaries because

work is always there and so there's sometimes I don't want to talk about it. So I have to say

it gently and say can we not talk about work right now but it's always there because this is our

company. We did around a financing where we raised money from friends and family and so it's not

just our money. It's our friends and family money and they you know entrusted us to do something

with it and so that brought on a lot more pressure. It feels like it's good pressure at all

in some ways or not you're looking at it. It's not bad pressure. No, it could be a lot worse.

Sure and also I mean you're doing both doing I mean clearly you're passionate about the business

I think not just because it's yours. If you weren't passionate about your business I have concerns

but you've you both bring a level like you said you both bring a level of expertise in your various

areas that mesh pretty well with the products. I would say we have confidence in each other in

their respective or respect yeah I guess the respected kind of expertise for each other.

Lissy's got you know she's way smarter than I am when it comes to almost everything.

I like to sell I like to build product I like to like jump out of an airplane through how to build a

parachute away down. It doesn't work for a finance person. Yeah I mean it wasn't you know in the plan

that like some day we would like to work together it just sort of came together we you know with our

different careers and backgrounds and I had been a sustainability consultant and so I was always

telling other businesses like oh here's what you should do get you know lead certified or get

this and here's how you can save money and so what I like about this is this is an opportunity

to author our own you know path of sustainability and we get to decide is this worth it is it not

worth it does it cost too much does anybody care so it you know it brings kind of another sense of I guess

meaning to my work. Yeah I mean we so it's funny the two terms Lissy you and I had spoken before

today were both sort of around sustainability initiatives once was at the Cantico ribbon cutting and

I drove her in 2023 where you have to see the solar panels on the new building at camp and then a

year ago when Tom Lysrail was got me certification which is a very rare for an existing building

particularly one that is as old as this temple and you were a key component of that so all the

exactly and which is when you first mentioned project hi to me but all of you know all the time

to talk that sustainability is sort of at the heart of that. Yeah so it's clear that that's

you know it's a big part of you know what you do and where did that passion for that come from for you.

A lot of it came from just my background and growing up being outside in nature I majored in

government and I worked on Capitol Hill and I handled energy and environment issue area so academically

that kind of peaked my interest of like huh what's you know the government's role in making sure we

have clean air and clean water but then I I lived in Arizona in the 1990s and I used to hike outside

and there would be these air quality alerts saying it's unhealthy for you to hike outside and I just

thought what are we doing? What are businesses and you know consumers doing to make our planet not

healthy for us to breathe our air or drink our water or eat our food and so after my last corporate

job I decided to commit myself to sustainability and that was in 2003 and figure out how to use my

you know education and experience to help businesses become more sustainable because I am also

still a capitalist and you know it's the system that we have and so working with businesses and I

do think businesses have a responsibility to you know help out. And this has been a huge huge

influence on my kind of business world the same time that Liz he was mentioning that she

just dedicated her career to sustainability and doing better for the planet.

I have another business that I am a manufacturer's wrap and I sell into target stores and when our

oldest daughter who is now 21 was in diapers she said could you stop by the co-op and pick up

some chlorine-free diapers and maybe some laundry detergent those you know free of all the

nasty stuff and then as I'm leaving she says better yet why don't you get them in a target?

So I called the CEO of seventh generation and a year later we had them on the shelves of target

and that was an opportunity for me to learn that sustainability is not only good for the

environment it's good for your pocket book it's good for a capitalist and have built another

business around a lot around sustainability. Sustainable consumer product goods everything from

clean canteen which is you know keeping plastic water bottles out of the waterways to organic and

non-gemo project verified human food cereals and granola and some other categories.

I love that you know you guys have made it so like being a capitalist and you know

sustainable at the same time can happen. I think there's a lot of people that

think that it's one or the other. Yeah that is what we are working on I mean it's sort of

you know can we make this happen and you know there's not one right answer we've gone through

a couple different certifications we got B Corp certified we're certified by 1% for the planet

we looked at getting carbon neutral certified and decided against that so you know not we can't do

everything it's really about prioritizing what you're doing but being made in the US is a big one

our treats are vegetarian so it's not you know animal based products those by themselves are more

sustainable than the conventional alternatives and so I don't really like to say we have sustainable

products because nothing by itself is sustainable we are still making things and cause you know takes

energy to make but it's relative to what is in the marketplace and what's the dominant player in

the marketplace so we are more sustainable than those simply because we you know make our toys in

the US they're recyclable and because our treats are vegetarian and non-jumbo probably verified

and then we also have a mission so we have a give back where we're not only helping save bees

but we help the ecological health of the planet yeah so where do you guys plant your wildflowers

as people buy yeah well we work with being butterfly habitat fund in the US and they are

primarily planting in like the middle of the country like the farm felt because it has it they will plant

two acres or more they have a program called seed a legacy and if you have two acres or more

and you commit to five years of transforming whatever it is whether it's lawn or gravel or

into habitat they give you free seeds and they give you direction on how to do or they can give you

support on that as well that feels like that's the key yeah it's it's wanting to plant stuff it's

another thing to know what to do once it's planted yeah that is true actually we're doing that at

Camp Tico we got seeds we planted the honey bee seed mix which is a mix of clovers on where where

we did all the construction by the new building and then we're working on a pollinator garden on

the wet the east side of the camp for the higher like the taller flowers like a donation and

you know cone flowers and choreopsis and things like that so that will be another one of the projects

but we also started a program in Canada so we sell our products to Canadian retailers and when

we started that they said that's great that you're saving bees in the US what are you doing in

Canada and they challenged us and so we found the Canadian honey council is a nonprofit and they

they work to help provide education and resources to honey beekeepers and a lot of them are located

you know near canola farms and those bees will go then pollinate the canola flowers for a couple

weeks and the rest of the time they feed them things like sugar water so the Canadian honey council

because of us said hey do you guys want habitat planted by your canola farms and they were all

very enthusiastic about it so they already have two projects going and they've got more projects

in the works as our Canadian sales grow and hopefully they will the you know Canadian habitat will

be grow you know augmented as well incredibly saving bees is really important I mean they represent

about third of our food supply right now they're at their risk every season because of farming practices

climate change there's a vero mite which has come over from Asia in the 80s it is also a detriment to

the to the bees and here in Minnesota we have almost 500 species of bees in the state of Minnesota

and so yeah it's a lot we've learned a lot about bees by the way we also learned that there's there's

kind of conflict between the native bee lovers and the honey bee lovers which would have thought

there'd be political issues around the bee we're all trying to save the bees yeah but yeah we're

we're under the big 10 philosophy of we want to save all bees and you know when you plant wildflower

habitat you really are helping native bees honey bees because it's habitat for both of them yeah as we

think about our company and we've been around for about over three years in the marketplace we've

created over 30 million square feet of beepeller and habitat through our donations of creating habitat

so we are making an impact that was the goal I mean obviously through as a capitalist we want to

sell products to make money but we also want to do good and be of service to the planet and so we are

doing that and we have big aspirations to do a lot more yeah it's incredible and one of the most

funny stories that I've gotten to do here in my guy plus years at Chupo is a couple of yeah 2023 in the

summer there's a group of Jewish beekeepers that I got in the bee suit and interviewed and kind of

the eyes and you know interview the beekeepers and got some really good honey yeah out of it and

it's just the whole experience which fascinate it and like the people who who are beekeepers are

super passionate about it yeah really amazing group of people that do that kind of stuff yeah that is

true we actually would like to you know get to know them a little more they're in July there's a

honey producers association meeting that we're going to go to yeah now the small like the small

neighborhood producers up in our just they're so the passion is great and they're here to teach

one of them is really excited to help me set up a hive in my house which I'm not doing because my

wife would leave the house I think I am not interested I am happy for people to do and I understand

the importance of beekeeping but I think actually really my entire family really.

Yeah it's an interesting one because the the native bee proponents say you know they talk about

that beekeeping is not an act of conservation because it's more like of an agricultural thing like you

keep the bees and you know they're like livestock honey bees are and they get trucked around you know

we're pollinate all the almonds in California and so for conservation you know there's more talk

about planting habitat and making sure your your lawns are good for hosting native bees because they

you know the ground nesters or you know you might not see them as much but it's it's sort of it's an

interesting you know different types of groups of people the honey beekeepers and the native bee

advocates don't always agree we support all bees yes well one of the native bees

stunned me when I was mowing the lawn was in the ground and they held me yeah yeah so coming up out of

the hive I tried to avoid them and I did not they got me so wasn't real happy with them that day

yeah but you're still here to talk about it but I'm still here I'm not I'm not allergic to so wasn't a wasp

I don't think so I was a grunt baby yeah I don't think it was a wasp yeah they only mean stepping on

brownbleen I don't blame them didn't enjoy I was trying to avoid them but yes I'm here to tell the

tale so Ian you said three years since you guys have you started this company is the trajectory

you know without again spoiling company secrets here are you moving it in a path that you

hope to at this point when you can see good no okay it's not going big enough it's not going

fast enough for for us and there's a lot of reasons for that I mean there's been a lot of stuff

happening last four or five years in the in the world everything from COVID to you know the

political situation we're in today and also everything in between you know we again going back

to we make our stuff in the US and inevitably it's more expensive in some cases then conventional

or stuff this made over in Asia or other parts of the world we believe that we're not out of the

realm and depending on distribution of where we're going so a neighborhood pet store we're very

competitively priced when you get into the bigger box retailers that have less customer service

per se where there's not a customer service person in the store talking about our brand

it makes it more difficult for someone to pay a bit more than the competitor

we have some ideas that we're going to be working on here shortly to to maybe

combat that but that's a long answer to your question of I would like to be selling more products

and we'd like to be making more money to be supporting the bees and that's really our goal

I suppose being capulose that you are you always want to sell more you always want to

you mean this is your business this is you always want to be doing as well as you can be doing

yeah yeah I mean our projections were a whole lot more we thought we would do better online we didn't

know how difficult it would be to get people to our website you know Chewy and Amazon do pretty

well for us the big box retailers are difficult you know they're looking at price points they're not

looking at innovative brands they want their own brands possibly sure you know where they put

their own you know proprietary brand are they source it or they or they take the big brands or

everybody knows the big brands and those large brands can afford to absorb maybe some of the

tariff costs or provide more promotional funds the other thing is you know we have toys and treats

that work together to create an engaging enriching experience for dogs and in in large stores the

toys and the treats aren't merchandise anywhere near each other they can be at smaller stores

smaller neighborhood stores when they're like you know they would they might say okay here's the USA

made you know toys and treats over here or here are the enrichment toys and treats that go together

and that's helpful to us I'd also say that with the current landscape of the environment or the

political environment you know we as the USA manufacturer dog toy company have some competitive

advantages where we're not hitting we're not getting hit with big tariffs there are some materials

or some ingredients in the supply chain that do affect us but we're not giving up we we're entrepreneurial

we're flexible and part of starting a company is being both flexible and entrepreneurial to

to figure out what the right path is when you start a company going it's not a straight line

never is so we're we're still on the path and I'm pretty tenacious awesome possibly the most

important question I'm going to ask where can people locally go go shop and find projects have

treats and toys for their dog yeah you can find them at some of the pet evolution stores

you can find them at the lunch and buyer these some of them have had carried our treats and toys

over the years you can find them at we certainly find them on our website projectivepeckcompany.com

you can find them on chui you can find them on amazon you can find them on target.com

co-ops have our treats many of the co-ops like the wedge

so some of the you know like natural food stores they like our treats they don't typically

carry toys so but a lot of them are carrying our treats downtown dogs I was gonna fly

it's where our dog is just rewarding and grooming next door so yes you would be the plug

I gave it was for downtown dogs yeah absolutely well excellent last couple questions before I

like you to get out of here and on with your day first what is your favorite Jewish holiday

was his start yeah

okay

my favorite Jewish holiday is Passover okay okay I love all the food I love the stories that we

tell every year it's a great way to gather um just remind remind ourselves or remind our children

um you know where we came from and what our what our story is

yes Jim

I'll say Shabbat um it's kind of a the weeks are long with running a company with all the

craziness in the world it's a nice time to to just stop um not super like we don't necessarily go

to services every Friday night but um Lucy Mesa Khala every every Friday when we're in town

and we have a dinner and it's kind of like the moment to chill whenever we make plans on a Friday

and I'm like do we have to I'm with you I just want to like chill my life's on board of that we very

rarely do stuff on but go on Friday night unless it's the only night we could see Friday by gift

we we really try to take it is yeah yeah I also like Passover I would have said that but

let's see said it first so I was like that's my second Passover is is the favorite answer yeah

so like you could have said it would have been fun can I do a different one no

really really draw for the balance that yeah and finally what is your favorite Jewish food

I can't throw away my least favorite Jewish food is good filter fish I knew you were going to say that

my favorite Jewish food um

hmm there's a bunch of them up there i good i wrote said um

yeah i'll stick with that i'll close it here good chase let's see i gotta go with homemade

hola yeah so you made that that's i make it yeah yeah it is dee delicious is it like a without

divulging the recipe is it like old family recipe or something you've developed over or just like

found a lie there like yeah no i'm happy to share um i believe in sharing recipes yes some people don't

um no i found it online ironically maybe through king Arthur's website it's it's called Molly's

hola okay and it's a really good one you you know can start it at noon and it'll still be ready by

six o'clock and what i also like about it is that um when you put the yeast in before you put it

in you put it with warm water and so you can see you know that it's foaming and if it doesn't

foam you know the yeast isn't gonna work and there's other bread recipes where you just hope

you know you don't see it foaming you put the yeast in sooner and you don't know if it's gonna work

and then it can be a bomb yeah hope is not a strategy in business or in cooking

or baking especially in college you don't miss me and hope with that absolutely not uh

let's leave around the porch if my engine of shifman thank you both so much uh we'll have links

to project high-tech company and uh people can check out your products and uh the best of both

but consider your growth in the business and that's why you need to support the community and

that's in the area so thank you both thank you thank you Lonnie thanks for having us

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