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The Try Tank Podcast is about innovation and the church
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: From the Try Tank Research Institute,
this is the Try Tank
Podcast.
Welcome to the Try Tank Podcast. It's Father
Lawrence Labrija with you. This is episode
027, episode 27 on,
um, the Power of Living Stories.
Our guest Today is the Reverend Peter
Levinsung. He is the Associate Rector at St.
Gregory of Nyssa. That's that famous
church in San, uh, Francisco.
Uh, if you've never had an opportunity to go there and you're
ever in the San Francisco area, you must visit just for how they do
worship as a totally different sort of way of being.
He's, uh, also the creator of Living Stories
Sermons, which is an innovative, monstrous,
inspired preaching model that
transforms the sermon into a
totally different thing. It's like a communal act of storytelling
and reflection. Uh, it's an
interesting. You'll hear all about it on today's program.
Peter and I, actually we met because he's interested also in
artificial intelligence and Shameless Plug.
He also has a podcast sponsored by Try Tank
on artificial intelligence. So you'll
hear about that in this program as well.
And you're going to hear about, uh, the congregations that are
currently trying out the Living Stories method.
There's I think about 18 of them. We'll talk about the
wanderings, why that's important. Uh, we'll talk
just about how you can get more information. Information,
how it even could be impacted by
the, the advent of artificial
intelligence and all this work. So it's a, uh, it's a pretty
neat conversation and I hope you enjoy
it.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: And Peter, welcome to the Tri Tech Podcast.
Good to have you with us.
>> Peter: Thank you. It's good to be here.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: All right, so I said a little bit in the
introduction about Living Stories, but I want
you, if you and I were just like bumping into each other at a coffee
shop and I said, oh, you're Peter. You're the guy that's doing that Living Story,
saying, explain it to me.
>> Peter: What would you say?
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Like, that's the elevator pitch.
>> Peter: Yeah, let's see. I'll do my
best. So I think if you believe
that God speaks through the voices of all
God's people, that people are hungry for
actual connection in church and not just content,
and that, uh, transformation happens through participation
in worship, then Living Stories is
a transformative preaching model that might just, uh, be for
you and your community of worship. In
Living Stories Sermons, preaching is no
longer the preacher's monologue, but rather
the congregation's co creation.
So as a preacher, you
become a facilitator rather than a
lecturer. The, uh, preacher's role shifts from
delivering conclusions to
nurturing a space of curiosity
and shared reflection. And, and all
of this happens as, first of
all, the preacher shares the gospel story using
Montessori style figures and tactile
objects to tell the gospel story in a
multi sensory approach and, and help people
enter into the story more deeply.
But we do this all in a way that is using the
actual lectionary reading. And it fits right
into the BCP liturgy where, you know, you have the gospel
reading and then the sermon. So we're using the
actual lectionary gospel reading. It's not paraphrased
stories. We are creating these scripts
that other people can use and adapt to their own
contexts. And as we tell the story, we
also offer exegetical support
for the congregation so that they can dig deeper into
doing the work of scripture interpretation. But we
offer that exegetical support without imposing
interpretation so that the congregation is free
to truly create their own meaning in
response to the story and co create that, that
sermon together. Okay, you look like you were going to say something. I'll stop.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Yeah, yeah, because I figured, you know, let me let him go
for a little bit and then I'll interrupt with my questions. But it's like, okay,
Peter, you and I are going to work together on your elevator pitch because
this was one big, uh, elevator. This must be a really
tall building that we just traveled here. All
right, so let's go back.
>> Peter: Uh, I'm excited about it.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: I can tell it here I am. You know what, I'm going to let them go for a little.
Okay, now you've just like, gone a little too far.
When you say, let's begin with, with some basic
stuff. When you say we. When I hear you say
we, you're talking about living Stories.
Let's do it another way. I'm very practical, and I try to make the
podcast as practical as possible. If I am in
small congregation in rural Arizona
and I, and I'm, um, like, okay, this is interesting. You know, I, I'd like to get
more people involved in my work in, in the sermon so that
it's not just this. I want certainly connection and
participation. All right, I'm in. What does this look
like? So what happens if I'm interested, say, for example, in
Living Stories? Is it a way of training
me to bring people into it, or is
it a set of resources that you provide
for me to do this? Think of me again. I'm this rector in rural
Arizona and I'm like, I'm in on living stories. What do I.
For what's it going to be?
>> Peter: Sure. So at St. Gregory's um, you know, I've
been exploring this way of
preaching with our congregation for the past four years
and a little over a year ago is when we, we began
intentionally sharing it with other congregations. And
the way we've been doing that is, you
know, I'm, I'm creating the stories for our own use. And these are
digital documents. Uh, and we're also
uh, figuring out what materials work, what
don't. And so the scripts that we
create have suggestions for what
resources, what materials to use, but congregations
are actually finding, uh, a wide variety of
materials. Some are going and creating their own, some are
adapting things they already have. We're not in the business
of selling materials. We are
sharing digital resources that equip
congregations to tell the stories and
co create sermons using what they already have
or with minimal, you know, extra things they need to buy
or create. So.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Okay, so that answered one of the questions. When you're saying we, you're
talking about yourself and St. Gregory Nyssa, uh, in San Francisco,
that have put this together and have tested it for several
years. And so what you're doing is you're, you're going
through it and you're. Am I okay to say you called
it at one point a script? Is it like a manuscript of a
sermon that has places for, to invite people with
questions?
>> Peter: So yeah, basically how it works is
there's the lectionary gospel
reading. Uh, we're typically using the common English Bible
translation, which is one of the approved translations for worship in
the Episcopal Church and many others. And
we, so we're reading the scripture text
but interspersed interlinearly.
However you say that. I'm putting in suggestions for
how to uh, move the tactile
figures and tell, tell the story in a physical
manner while you're reading the gospel aloud.
And so the script has stage directions, if you
will.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: That's what I was going to say. So if this were, if this were Hollywood, you
can tell some of us live in la, right? If this were Hollywood, those
would be the directions of what's actually happening or
things that you, as the person who's reading this
said, I would suggest that at this point you move your
character this way or that you do this. The stage direction is a
great way of putting it. So then what you're providing is
the English standard.
What is it? The uh, CSV, The Common English
Bible. Yeah. Ah, ceb, which is actually a
great translation. So you're doing the ceb, but within
it, you write in, if you will, for those of us
who speak
Episcopalianese, you're sort of
doing a little like, rubrics in between. That said, here, you
may want to move the character from this to this or to do this with the
other. Okay, and then what happens?
>> Peter: Well, so. So that's how the scripture reading
itself plays out. I will say there are. There are two other
parts to the script. One is an
exegetical introduction. Uh, this happens
basically as the preacher is getting ready to share the
story. They also. Congregation is also getting
ready, and the preacher who's
about to tell the story, um, also
gives an exegetical background to
what's going on in today's story. This allows, you know,
normally if you're preaching, uh, more traditional sermon, you
would do some of this in the moment of preaching
the sermon. But we shift this up
front. You know, we. We front load it so that it
then becomes easier for the congregation
to enter fully into the story as it is
happening.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Okay.
>> Peter: And then the last part after the story is done
is wondering questions. Uh, that's
in the script. And, you know, I'm coming up with these various
wondering questions that I think will help
the congregation dig deeper into the
scripture reading of the day. And there's
basically a sort of an arc to the wondering questions
where you start off with, let's just fill in some
context here. I wonder what was going on, why Jesus was here
on this day, saying these things, whatever. And then we dig deeper
and then always wrap up with this wandering question about,
I wonder where the good news is for you
in regards to today's story. And so these are. Except for
the last one. Each wandering question is unique
and tailored to that story. And
I see the wondering questions as a trellis on
which the sermon grows. Right? The. The
congregation. The wondering questions are not the sermon, but
the, uh, the congregation's response and the, uh, the preacher's
facilitation of the communal conversation is
the sermon. And that grows on the. The
foundation, the trellis that is there in the script.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: So.
Okay, let me go back here. So
you have the. Are the wonderings. When I hear wonderings, I'm thinking
sort of in the style of godly play, right? To get you to think
deeper about your life that way, which I think is a beautiful,
wonderful model. Sam, uh, Wells uses it as well in the
Being with program. It worked right there. It. There's a reason
it works not just on children. It works on us as humans because we
are meant to wonder about things. So do you pose the
questions as again, I'm this
pastor, I'm a rector out in rural
Nevada or Arizona, I forgot which one. I said anyways, out
there in the Southwest. And uh, I
finished have read it. If I have the little figurines, I have done that.
I'm guessing the figurines are to bringing more
the younger people to be involved. Is that the thinking behind it
or.
>> Peter: Not just the younger folks. I mean I think everybody benefits
from a multisensory approach. We
tend to shy away from
PowerPoints and Episcopal worship and probably
for sensible reason. But this is a
low tech way of creating
sacred space where people are
able to enter more fully into
scripture than if they just hear it
read aloud. For so many of us, I'm a visual learner. So many people
are, you know, they.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: It just the majority, 65% of people.
>> Peter: Are to have a physical
manifestation. You know, imagination. It helps our imagination
to. And it helps our ability to uh, enter into the story more
fully. Whether you're a kid or not. It's, you know,
people often hear oh, living stories. We are
deeply inspired by godly play and their approach to
storytelling and wondering questions. I'll let them describe
what they do for themselves. But uh, living stories,
we've intentionally made some shifts
in our approach as we have been
exploring what actually works best for the Sunday
liturgy rather than Sunday school. And so
this is intentionally intergenerational for all
people. It's not a children's sermon. And
it's, you know, really trying to uh, figure out
how to equip the whole
congregation in the process of co creating
meaning.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Okay, so going back to
the firm, uh, example that we've been talking
about. So I go through the sermon, I've moved the
little characters. I have then gotten to the
wonderings and I now do I post them one
at a time and wait for answers or do I say, here are the four
wonderings? Let's go.
>> Peter: Yeah. So we have a huge variety
of uh, ways of doing it. We have like 18 different
preacher practitioners who are currently exploring the model and people
have adapted it in their own way. I'll just speak to the way that I do
it. Um, I have
six wondering questions that I choose.
And again, the first one is sort of just filling
in context. There are about four questions, um, that are really
digging into, you know, let's uh, explore the
meaning behind what's going on here. And then the last one to
wrap it up, I ask these questions one at a time and that
Allows time for people to respond. And then
there's also time for people to respond to what other
people said. But sometimes I don't end up using all the questions that I,
that I prepared because the conversation has a life of its own. And so
as the facilitator, there's a real deep sense of
listening to what the Spirit is saying through the people
assembled, inspired by Scripture, and trusting
in that process. So that
regardless of what I may think is most important,
people are going to always have their own opinions about what
is most important. And together
trusting that the Spirit will speak through all of us
assembled and everybody will have the message that they needed
that day to take home with them.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Okay, so we go through the questions. So
for me, just an, I think an obvious question on this one, and
I guess this is just a facilitation skill. How do you keep it
from not going off the rails? How do you make sure that it
stays within point and how do you make sure that it doesn't
become. I could see that it could become political in some
cases, if somebody's example of the lived experience happens to be
a political movement. And then you end up into the.
Once again, from the pulpit, there's politics. And what if someone
disagrees with the politics of someone? How do you keep it from
not becoming something that ends up
being sort of the antithesis of what we want from the
gospel, which is to receive the message of Jesus Christ, to
just becoming like a free for all discussion at a town
hall.
>> Peter: Yeah, I'll say two things about that.
One is about the magic of
wondering that I've discovered, which is that, you know,
this really creates a heart space where people feel
the ability to say things
that they don't hold as tightly, not even, you know, to
the level of an opinion, but rather this is
something that is authentically arising. For me, it's on my heart. I
don't know if I have the best words for it, but
I'm going to share this. And there's a, uh, lighter
touch to it where because
of that approach and that energy that
people feel when responding to the wondering, there really
hasn't been nearly as much, you know,
deeply divided opinions as you would expect. I
think people are able to engage, in my
experience, in a way that understands that we're,
we're entering into this heart space together and
we may go in different directions, and that's okay. It's
actually a rare and beautiful thing in our very
polarized time. Um, the other thing
I'll say is that in addition to offering the wondering
questions. The, the most important
part of what the preacher does in
the facilitation role as you're
facilitating the creation of the sermon, is
mirroring back what individual people
are sharing. So, you know, someone may go on
a, um, you know, one or two minute sharing
something way long. And I try to, you know, synthesize what
they're, what they're saying, um,
succinctly. And, you
know, I guess I try to, uh, sum it up
as, ah, succinctly mirroring back the best possible
interpretation of what someone just shared. You know, um,
and that has real power. There are three
reasons why I find it to be really powerful. One, um,
it proves to the participant, the
individual, that, yes, I'm listening to you, what you said is
valid and important. Two, it offers the
preacher a moment of, well, first of all,
just, I guess making sure that everybody in the room can hear
what was said. Because often we as preachers
have more training and experience than speaking loudly
enough so that everybody can hear. But then third,
finally, what you were saying about something going off the rails, if
someone said something that was, you know, truly, I
would guess, I guess I would say, uh, theologically concerning, you
know, there is often it's more
ambiguous than you may think.
So if someone is saying something in response
to the gospels that could sound
and could be interpreted in a way that is
perhaps anti Semitic, that's a very easy
pitfall for preachers as they are trying to interpret
the gospels. And participants in living stories
sermons may not realize that they are saying something that could go in
that direction. That's an opportunity for the preacher
to mirror back what they just heard and
move the interpretation in a way that they know
because they're theologically trained or whatever is,
um, true to the gospel. So there's
that pastoral like, pastoral authority,
pastoral concern and care for the participants.
But it, and ultimately the preacher has a very active
role in shaping the conversation. But
the, the insights that come about are so much more profound and
meaningful when it's the. The participants themselves who
are offering these to the group. At least that's not what
I found.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: And, and I'm curious actually, to be. To be honest, when
I was saying goes off the rail, I was not even thinking
theologically like heretics.
>> Peter: Okay.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: I was thinking more like they just start talking about their car and go on
talking about their houses. Like, how is this
related? But thank you for, you know, uh, I'm
reminded of my. My professor of homiletics was
always reminding us that Lorenzo, there's a
reason the creed always follows the
sermon. It's like whatever they just said,
here's what we actually believe. Just keep that
in mind. This is our creed. It's like, oh, that makes a lot of
sense.
So, okay, so if you brought together now, does the,
um, does the preacher. In this case the
whole congregation is a preacher, but does the celebrant. Does
anybody close it up and say we've
now wrapped up or sum up what we've heard
from everyone? Or is. Do we just sort of leave
it hanging with questions and lingering about? Both
are good Hollywood endings. You know, uh, which
one. Which one do is part of living
story.
>> Peter: Yeah. So what I typically do is ask that last
question about where, where the good news is for people
based on everything we've just shared. And various people
will have different takeaways and things that
are speaked in speaking to them most profoundly
based on the. The discussion thus far. And I
try to not impose my
own interpretation of what is most
true or most important from the conversation
because that gives people the
authority to truly explore scripture for
themselves. It's a strengthening the muscle, if you, uh, will,
of their relationship with scripture, if they are
licensed to speak to it themselves
and understand not only privately at home, but also
in the context of worship. And so I find it so much
more meaningful to simply let people respond where
the good news is for them and then thank people for
wandering along with me that day and say, all right,
we're now going to move on, um, to the next thing.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Okay, now are you, are you
like, do you use. Is this your style of preaching now? Whenever you
preach every Sunday or every. I don't know how to appreciate your
rotation.
>> Peter: Yeah. So I do this. We do. We collectively at
St. Gregory's do this every Sunday. At our early
service, our 8:30 service. Uh, we have two Sunday
liturgies. And. And so I'm, I'm doing it most of
the time there. We have two other preachers who are also exploring it.
And so, yeah, so we, we do it every week.
There are other congregations who are using it every week. Most
congregations and preachers who have been adopting
this are doing it at uh, a. On a monthly basis. But.
But some are using it more often, like us. And I will say
also, like about the last point I made about, you know, wrapping it
up, I actually find that way of
wrapping up to be more authentic to
scripture. You know, we. Scripture is messy and,
you know, we. And living stories
allows for us to find the
beauty in the mess. Right. And there
can be different ways of, of
engaging with Scripture and different uh, things that come, come out
of any particular scripture passage. Anybody who's tried
to sit down and write a, a sermon, uh, a
traditional sermon based on a particular scripture
passages passage knows there could be so many different ways of
taking it and there's value in authentically
recognizing that in our liturgy.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Well, I certainly, you know, you, you, you began by talking
about that this is a good way for people to connect with each other
and uh, with the congregation. I mean you do get to know how somebody else
is thinking. It sort of is, you know, just
by, by doing it that way. It is for those who believe that the age of
association is coming to an end. And this is why we have the polar position
that we have because we don't generally get to see people
that are not part of our own sort of echo
chamber. But in a church you would, you would get red and blue
people sort of states, you know, featured uh,
in the same. And you could hear someone else's perspective be like, well I
hadn't thought of it quite from that way and that might expose you to it
doesn't mean you're going to change your, your, your mind on or something.
Now are, is anyone else using it? Perhaps not
for the, for the service on Sunday or as a way of
preaching, but more for forum, uh,
afterwards as part of the discussion or as a
Bible study tool or any other ways that, that anyone's
using it.
>> Peter: I could see it being quite applicable in
those uh, ways as well. For my own purposes.
I've had to sort of focus and think about it as
a way of preaching in the Sunday liturgy. Other
folks have adapted it to a midweek
liturgy that they do based on the coming
Sunday's reading or whatever. Other people have
used it in Sunday school to
have a way of engaging with
story and wondering that is
connected to what the adults in
the liturgy are hearing. You know, because we're
following the lectionary and they want the kids to be able to
follow along with that as well. For us it's been really
valuable as an intergenerational experience
of preaching where everybody is all together in
the sanctuary worshiping and wondering together. But
yeah, there, there is a lot of different ways that it could
be applied and used. And I, I'm
learning from all the people who have been taking this and adapting
it to their own context. So I'm always excited to hear how,
how people are using it.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Absolutely. And as with most things right is it's always
contextual to, to where you're at don't, don't do
something that is not who your people are. If your room is
filled with, you know, 50 PhDs
and you go out there with little dog, well, actually it might be perfect for them
to have a little figure.
>> Peter: It might be perfect. It can be such a rich conversation, uh, for
people who are so used to just being in their head all the
time to actually get into their heart and try to
engage, uh, authentically with each
other.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Yeah.
>> Peter: Ah, you know, it's, it's good.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: You never do. You uh, never can tell.
So, um, here's. I suppose. So
when someone reaches out to you, is participating with you
in Living Stories, do they get an email with the sort
of suggested script and copy for the week? Or
how do they get. Is it just a website that you
download stuff? You mentioned that you don't sell it, which is
wonderful.
>> Peter: Yeah. But, yeah,
so right now what we're doing is I'm
doing a monthly introductory
workshop where people can sign up and
hopefully we can put this link in the uh, episode description
so that people can sign up for the upcoming
workshops. And that will give, uh, people the
opportunity to choose which one. And then, you know, hour long
free workshop, you just show up and we create a living story
sermon together online on Zoom. And then we talk about it.
And after that, well, whether you attend the workshop
or you just sign up for the newsletter, regardless you
will be getting the newsletter which has links to all
the, you know, latest stories and news and et
cetera, that'll all be in there. So the newsletter is how
the community stays up to date with what's going
on. Also we have a website,
livingstorysermons.org people can learn all about
it there and watch videos of other
congregations using it and see how they've adapted it to
their own context. And starting in
May, I don't know when this episode is coming out, but May
1st is going to be the first date of
a podcast, uh, not, sorry, not podcast of a
training cohort. So we'll have a six week
training cohort that meets over Zoom weekly,
uh, successions to dive
deeper into our practice of using living summary
sermons and offering each other feedback, uh,
on each other's ah, use of
living stories in our own home base, you know, on
Zoom, um, and so we can give and receive
feedback and dive deeper into some of
the topics we've talked about. And then finally, um,
I am in the beginning stages of working on
a book about Living stories, which we'll see
hopefully is coming out in the fall of
2026. I have a sabbatical coming up this
summer and we'll spend time writing the book to share living
stories with the broader church and share all about that.
We've. The things that we've been learning so far.
I think this is doing this together.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Perfect model that could be used. So, uh, for
everyone who's heard me talk, I talk a lot about the numbers. We have
6,757 congregations in the
Episcopal Church. Of those, we have
425 congregations that are
entirely lay led. There is no
supply preacher, there is no supply priest. There's nothing. It is
all worship. Everything is led by lay people. I think
this would be an easier way for them to be able to
access and to work together on um, the sermons or
however they might be doing it. It could also be, I could see a
tool for smaller congregations that may
not always have a priest, certainly also for
bivocational priests. So that because a good sermon for
those of us who have done sermons can take time. You sit with it, you pray about
it, you do lecture with it. You're, you're living
into to the God story. And this is a way
of letting the congregation. So you could say as the.
I could see why some of the people who are trying it with you, those, uh, those
ancient congregations are saying, um, I'm going to try once a month
to see how it goes. But I can also see that there's others who be like.
But I, I like to be able to sit with the scripture and
see what God, through my training, through my whole
experience wants me to say to the congregation, through
the people that I have seen, right through their birth, through their death,
all throughout, I think that the priest and the preacher has
a certain role to play in that. And uh, uh, to that point,
actually I'm guessing that there's special care
to be made so that we priests who are there that
Sunday don't want to just jump in and
correct erroneous theology or to
say like, I'm glad you said that, Peter. Now let me, let me give you
to the right side of the theology on that, because
that's our tendency, right? And people would look to us, turn
to us to forward that in a lot of ways. How would
you respond to that?
>> Peter: Yeah. So, okay, I want to say a few things.
First of all, I would say we're not coming up with new doctrines on
the spot. It really is about
entering more deeply into the story and making
connections between the story and lived experience
and the theology that we've
all absorbed over time as participants in
church. And, and there is a special role for
the preacher who's facilitating the
conversation to shepherd the people along as
they're co. Creating meaning in response to the story.
Um, and I also wanted
to say, you know, with. In regards to the lay, uh,
led congregations, smaller worshiping communities.
Absolutely, I agree with you 100% on that. And I
also wanted to say, like, just so that people don't get the
wrong impression, uh, living stories
sermons still, uh, require
the same amount of exogenetical
study and preparation for
you to be able to preach it well, just like it would if
you were writing some other sermon. So you can do
that whether you're a priest or not. But you have
to put in the time to understand the story deeply, to
understand what's going on and what the connections are. But
then you don't have to spend the time to type it all up
into a thesis paper. You get to turn to the
congregation and create the sermon together.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Okay, isn't that, Isn't that in some way creating
a. So say, for example, that I spend eight
hours working on where I think this is. I do. I look at
commentaries, I look at all the things, where's God speaking and all this. And
then if all of a sudden the conversation with
it, with the wanderings in my own congregation starts
and it's not going in that direction, am, um, I then
not sort of tempted to just bring it in the direction that I
did all those verses say? But, but doesn't it remind you, Peter,
that I, uh. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Isn't that sort of like a human.
>> Peter: That's, that's what the wondering questions are for. The
preacher can use the ones that I am sharing
in the script or make their own. I always encourage people
to adapt the script to their own local
context. And that is really important because they know their context
best and they need to be able to fully and
authentically offer the. This trellis
for the sermon to grow on as wondering questions that
they think are important for the congregation to dive
deeper into. But then once you've offered those questions,
you have to sort of give up a bit of
the illusion of control over where the conversation
goes. You can offer more wondering questions, you can always
improvise or whatever. Um, but
there is also the possibility for the preacher
to engage in the wondering
themselves in the moment as a participant.
But offering wondering questions and
offering exegetical background and
offering their own spontaneous
noticings or wonderings about what's going on
are all great. Ways of supporting the
conversation and helping all
participants dive deeper into
scripture. But as soon as you start saying,
well, I think it's really important we talk about this and this is the main
takeaway for today that ends up clamping down
on conversation a bit. And so we try to, we try to
avoid that and be clear about the preacher's role
is not to um, have a
heavy handed approach of guiding, but rather a
very invitational, open ended
way of guiding the congregation through the
wondering.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Has any evaluation been done as to how people receive
this? Do they receive it better than just uh. Let me get up there
and read from our transcript. From a transcript.
>> Peter: Yeah. So we've, we're beginning on that. We, you know,
anecdotally, people love it and at least you know
what people tell me. And, and that's also why we've
been, we've been looking into ways of getting more third
party research done. And um, a colleague of yours, Sarah
Allred, or she has been, you know, she's a
contractor for us through a grant that we got to.
To do some independent research on
congregations that are, that are using this in their worship. And so
that's going to be happening this coming summer.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Excellent. And is it available in Spanish as well?
>> Peter: So the Scripture itself is
already available in Spanish. And then anybody
who wants to take it and use it in
Spanish, please do. I. It's, uh, it's
basically just me producing these scripts uh, on top of
my parish job. So I am, I am
trying to grow and offer it in more
cultural contexts. One thing you should check out,
uh, since you're moving to Miami soon. Adiel
and Million is she, uh, she's a rock star. She
works for. As a director of communications for the President of
House of Deputies.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Yep.
>> Peter: And she's in Miami.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Yep.
>> Peter: And she is sharing this with two of her parishes. Her
two parishes in Miami. Iglesia Santissima to
Nidad. If I'm m. Butchering that. Sorry.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: No, no.
>> Peter: And um, St. Paul de Haiti
again.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: That one you did butcher terrible even enough that I don't
know.
>> Peter: So that's a Haitian congregation. The second one, Haitian congregation.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Okay.
>> Peter: The, the first one is a Latino
congregation, both in Miami. So. Yeah. So again, as
always, uh, I'm learning from the people who are
adapting this to their local context.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Listen, this is why we have you on a tri tank. We're always learning
from when we try and experiment out in the field. It's like, okay, that's not quite
working how we thought it was going to work. But this is pretty interesting.
Now, is this something where AI could help or
could hinder? Are you going to be replaced by AI
Sometime soon, Peter?
>> Peter: Yeah, well, uh, it's an. It's
a thing that I've. I've asked myself and m. People who know
me know that I'm interested in artificial intelligence
as well. Uh, you and I have had many conversations about this.
I was very grateful to you for, uh, having me at the
AI and the church summit last summer. And
the way, you know these, these two, I guess,
passions of mine intersect is not visible on the
surface, but there's a real intersection there.
And for me, what I am, um, as I've
been exploring this, I think the living stories
preaching method is made both
possible and necessary by
AI and the reason for that is
content is cheap, right? AI makes content very
cheap. And there's a. And I love the word cheap because
it has two meanings. Both, you know, costs less
and worth less. It
is. Makes it less costly
in terms of my time to produce all the materials that go
along with creating a thing that people
can adapt and use in their own context.
So it's possible for me to put this out there because
of AI but it's also necessary
because in an age where content is
cheap, I think we need to lean into ways
of preaching that center human relationships as a
source of formation and meaning. Because, you know,
soon, maybe even now, uh, everyone, anyone could
carry an AI that knows them more intimately
and carry this AI around them in their pocket, you know, knows
it more, knows more intimately than any pastor could
and could preach with more rhetorical and theological
sophistication than most preachers.
This is not a recommendation, but just
saying that it's possible, I don't think it's a great idea, But
I think you very easily could
make Ask Kathy a preacher
in your pocket for every Episcopalian,
right? It wouldn't be. The technology is there. It wouldn't be
that hard.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Yeah, but there's sermons, too. There would be really good
sermons, right?
>> Peter: But yeah, so like the old
justification for sermon for the
local sermon from your local preacher rather than just looking
up the best sermon podcast online is
contextuality. You know, the local pastor
knows me, knows my context, but that's
no longer going to be the best source of a contextual sermon,
because already the algorithms that run social media know us
better than they know ourselves. Just combine that with the power
of generative AI and you'll have a amazing
preacher that you can just ask. Okay, write me a sermon about this
and share some inspiring words, that technology is out there.
Someone's going to create the app. Uh, I'm not. I'm not interested in
that. I think we should. Rather than
resisting this somewhat inevitability, we
need to answer this challenge with a way of
diving deeper into a relational, embodied, and
communal, a vulnerable circle of
participants in authentic worship. And that can only be
given through human relationship and authenticity.
And that's what Living Stories does really well. It unlocks
this transformative capacity of interwoven
relationships and the genuine encounter that we
have with scripture and with each other. And so there's
mutual transformation there. And it doesn't matter
so much, you know, what was said as much as who
said it, because it means so much that this
person who's going through this thing in their life said
this in response to today's gospel. And you can't get
that through AI and so that's why AI to me, is both.
Makes Living Stories both possible and necessary.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: AI is a tool, as we keep saying.
All right, so here's your. Your quick fire
questions. Are you ready? There's four of them for you today. You have
to answer with the first answer that comes to your mind, hopefully is the right one.
Where'd you go? Where'd you go to seminary?
>> Peter: Elder Vintage school.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Favorite holiday of the church?
Your favorite. Your favorite holiday of the church. Which one?
>> Peter: Ash Wednesday.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Is it really? Oh, I'm gonna have to ask you about that.
What is your favorite spot on Earth?
>> Peter: A spot, uh, on a,
uh, lake in. It's either Montana or Wyoming.
Somewhere on the boarding border between the two called Granite
Lake. It's. Whenever I think of a place of, like,
holiness, I picture myself in the spot on the lake with the
wind blowing over me. My family would go. Go up there
backpacking when I was young, and I haven't been there in years.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: I think you should go. Final question. Hawaiian pizza,
yes or no?
>> Peter: No.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: All right, well, this episode is going to be deleted immediately.
No. Just kidding. Peter,
thanks so much for joining us. I really appreciate you sharing this with us in the
world. As a reminder, people, uh, you can see this in the
show notes, but if you want to find out more, you want to go to
Living Stories. Sermon is a sermon or
sermons. Sermons
plural.org so livingstory
sermons.org Sign up for one of their upcoming
workshops. Make sure you sign up for their newsletter as a
total shameless plug. Uh, Peter also
hosts a, uh, podcast on artificial
intelligence. What a surprise, considering his answer on AI, Right.
And why he's been thinking about this, which is sponsored a uh,
little bit by Tritech. They do all the work so we just get a little bit of the credit
every once in a while.
>> Peter: And that very grateful to you for.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Your support is called, uh,
AI Church Toolkit.
>> Peter: Yes.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: And can be
found@aichurchtoolkit.com
yeah.
>> Peter: And uh, yeah. So look for that podcast also wherever you're
getting this podcast.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Excellent. Peter, thanks for joining us. God bless you and your
ministry.
>> Peter: Thank you so much.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Thanks for listening. Please subscribe and
be sure to leave a review. To learn more About
TriTech, visit
tritank.org Be sure to sign
up for our monthly newsletter where you can keep
up with all of our experiments. The
Try Tank podcast is a production of Try Tank in
association with Resonate Media.
Try Tank is a joint venture between
Virginia Theological Seminary and General
Theological Seminary. Again, thanks for
joining us. I'm, um, Father Lorenzo Labrija.
Until next time, may God bless.