Burnout: Why You’re Exhausted (Even When Life Looks Good)

🎙️ Episode 12 – Burnout: Why You’re Exhausted (Even When Life Looks Good)

In this raw and honest episode of The Lion Counseling Podcast, Mark Odland (Certified EMDR Therapist) and Zack Carter (Counselor & Coach) open up about their personal experiences with burnout—and what they learned through the process. Whether you're a business owner, husband, leader, or just a guy trying to hold it all together, this episode will help you understand why you’re running on fumes… even when life looks “successful” on paper.

🔍 In This Episode, You’ll Learn:

The real symptoms of burnout and how they differ from depression
What it means when you're successful but numb
Why you might feel angry, exhausted, or apathetic without knowing why
The 6 root causes of burnout: Workload, Control, Reward, Community, Fairness, and Values
How even faith-driven men with great families can burn out
Why resentment, over-functioning, and people-pleasing drain your strength
How to know when you’ve hit your emotional breaking point
The critical difference between “self-care” and selfishness
Why burnout is a warning sign—not a life sentence—and what to do about it
Real-life strategies you can use this week to reclaim peace and motivation
💥 If you’re tired, bitter, or just not feeling like yourself—this episode is for you.

About the Show:
The Lion Counseling Podcast helps men escape the cages that hold them back and become the lions they were created to be. Hosted by Mark Odland and Zack Carter, we explore issues like masculinity, trauma, anxiety, relationships, leadership, faith, identity, and emotional health—with truth, clarity, and courage.

Click here to watch a video of this episode.’
👉 Want help navigating burnout or life transitions? Book a free consultation at www.escapethecagenow.com

Creators and Guests

Host

Mark Odland

Founder of Lion Counseling, Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, Certified EMDR Therapist

Host

Zack Carter

Zack Carter is a Counselor and Coach with Lion Counseling LLC.

What is Lion Counseling Podcast?

The Lion Counseling Podcast helps men escape the cages that hold them back and become the Lions they were created to be. It exists to help men obtain success, purpose, happiness, and peace in their career and personal lives. The podcast is hosted by the founder of Lion Counseling, Mark Odland (Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist and Certified EMDR Therapist), and Zack Carter (Counselor and Coach with Lion Counseling). In their podcasts, they address a variety of topics relevant to men, including: mental health, relationships, masculinity, faith, success, business, and self-improvement.

Mark Odland: 00:00

So then my dad was deteriorating with health. You know? My dad was starting to die. It was really, really rough time. And then COVID slams.

Mark Odland: 00:07

Right? And then so it was kinda like a perfect storm. And then here k. Here's Confessions of a Therapist. Not proud of this, but it got so bad that I would see certain clients on my schedule, and I would not wanna show up for work.

Mark Odland: 00:28

Welcome to the Lion Counseling Podcast. I'm Mark Godland, founder of Lion Counseling and certified EMDR therapist.

Zack Carter: 00:35

And I'm Zach, counselor and coach.

Mark Odland: 00:38

Our mission is to help men break free, heal deep, and become the lions they were created to be. And today, we're talking about burnout, what it is, what causes it, how it's different from other issues like depression, and we'll even share, our own experiences of burnout and how we got through it. And make sure to hang on till the end because we've got some practical, practical takeaways that you can put into practice right away. If you're looking for support, of course, as always, check us out at escapethecagenow.com. And, let's kick it off.

Mark Odland: 01:09

Zach, what is burnout? Sure.

Zack Carter: 01:13

Yeah. Burnout is super common with people. And if you feel like you might be experiencing burnout, here here are some symptoms you might wanna look for. Do you have a lack of energy? Do you see that you have a lack of empathy for others or a lack of empathy for yourself?

Zack Carter: 01:29

Right? So you're starting to become a bit cynical. In addition, a lack of enjoyment in your job. Is your job unfulfilling? Do you feel like you're not moving the ball forward?

Zack Carter: 01:39

Do you feel like you're not making And lastly, irritability. Do you do you find that you're having a short fuse? So it's it's gonna be a combination of these different things. Now there is a debate that's going on in the in the scientific field in the literature at the moment around is burnout the same as depression? Sure.

Zack Carter: 01:59

And so the main point for people that say like burnout is different than depression is that anhedonia, which is a lack of pleasure. So if you're feeling a lack of pleasure, whether you're at work or lack of pleasure when you're at home with your family or living your your life, that tends to be depression. So if when you get out of the workspace or when you get out of serving at church or when you get away from being around your family too much, whatever it is, and you feel good, you feel more energy, you feel more enjoyment, that's probably gonna be more burnout than depression. Mark, do you have any thoughts on that as far as burnout versus depression or burnout in general?

Mark Odland: 02:43

Yeah. That's that's a really interesting distinction, I think I think, between the two. But, yeah, I could see how there'd be overlap, but how you could also think of it, as as distinct categories as well. So I think, like so many things in psychology, you know, that there's a healthy debate, and and we can kinda grow and learn through that process. But at the end of the day, I think if someone's experiencing those symptoms, it's kinda like whatever they call it.

Mark Odland: 03:07

What do I do? You know? What do I do with this, and how do I understand myself? And is it something deeper that's kind of, embedded in my physiology that needs deeper attention in some way, or is it, like, situational? And there are actually things that I can do to help move my way out of that burnout or heal from that burnout.

Mark Odland: 03:26

Right? And that that ties into some of, the rest of this conversation.

Zack Carter: 03:30

Right. Well and so has there been any times in your life where you felt burnout, Mark?

Mark Odland: 03:36

Oh, man. Yes. That's the short answer, Zach. And as I as I'm telling this story, I'll try to keep it brief, but, feel free to chime in with any questions or curiosities as I as I'm sharing it. But, so some I know you and some of our listeners know that, you know, my my life's work really has focused in on on trauma therapy for guys.

Mark Odland: 03:57

And so I'm doing a lot of EMDR therapy. I'm I'm sitting with with men as they're describing their their deepest traumas and pains and insecurities. And, some are more run of the mill, and some of them are pretty dark, pretty, pretty rough stuff. And so I think what happened to me and what happens to some therapists is I started to get burned out, because of what they call vicarious trauma. I was kind of I was seeing the images that my clients were describing in their trauma.

Mark Odland: 04:24

I was feeling the empathy, imagining what they went through. And, and what was happening was this it was sneaking up on me. Right? I was working too hard, seeing too many clients a week, absorbing these tough stories. And even as a man of faith, I was not tending to my, soul care the way I needed to.

Mark Odland: 04:43

Right? So I wasn't resetting. I wasn't doing kind of the contemplative work. I wasn't talking to enough people about what was going through. So I was kinda silently suffering and putting on a brave face and just working really hard.

Mark Odland: 04:56

Right? So that was kind of the setup. And then what I've another thing I've learned too is there's this stuff happening at work, which is a big contributor, but then life happens. Right? So then my dad was deteriorating with health.

Mark Odland: 05:12

You know? My dad was starting to die. It was really, really rough time. And then COVID slams. Right?

Mark Odland: 05:17

And then so it was kinda like a perfect storm. And then here k. Here's, confessions of a therapist. Not proud of this, but it got so bad that I would see certain clients on my schedule, and I would not wanna show up for work. That's not something you wanna hear your your therapist confess.

Mark Odland: 05:35

Right? That's tough.

Zack Carter: 05:37

There'd be there'd be yeah.

Mark Odland: 05:38

I mean, there would be times when my, compassion fatigue, you talked about empathy, you know, was was fading. I'm a compassionate person. And so I didn't feel like myself. I felt more numb. I started to feel numb inside.

Mark Odland: 05:51

And so there would be times when my client is talking, and I could feel the weight of what they're saying. And in in my gut, I'm like, I just can't go there. I don't have any more emotional energy to give. And part of my brain would say, Mark, it's time to check your emails. It's like, woah.

Mark Odland: 06:10

That was, like, a wake up call, man. Like so, like yeah. It was it was rough. And so it ended up looking like me, and I I'm blessed to have this option, but I was able to take some time off. I was able to take some time off, and I had to be really intentional about my healing process.

Mark Odland: 06:28

I had to take time to, you know, spend time with my dad. I had to take time to go back and get another round of my own counseling, saw a spiritual director, learn to delegate things a little bit better. So through that process, yeah, that was my journey. It was it was pretty rough, honestly. Looking back now, I see the signs, and that's part of how lion counseling, I mean, was birthed actually, which is pretty cool.

Mark Odland: 06:52

And that's that's the encouragement as I finish my story is my encouragement to guys listening. If you're starting to feel that, you're starting to feel numb inside, you're starting to feel super stressed, you're you're avoiding things, you're feeling like certain things in your life are suffering, and it could be burnout. You know, God really can use that experience. And on the other side of it, there can be something beautiful that that that comes out of that. And for me, it was a passion for helping other guys not to burn out the way I did, not the way that my dad did in some ways, and to try to catch it early if possible.

Mark Odland: 07:25

And and if not, if it is a crisis that brings guys to counseling, we're there too, and we can help them get through it. And, and that's really hopeful. Now I've got a renewed passion for what I do, and and it's exciting. And I and I'm working with guys where I can see a little bit of myself in them as I work with them, and, it's very, very gratifying. So there there is light at the end of the tunnel.

Mark Odland: 07:45

I will say that for guys if you get the right support.

Zack Carter: 07:48

Yeah. And and and maybe I'm wrong on this, Mark. And so definitely correct me if I'm wrong, but it it sounds like a lot of things were going right. That there were some things going wrong, like your dad and COVID clearly. At the same time, I know just in in general, I know people don't think counseling is a sales job, but it it is.

Zack Carter: 08:05

Like, part of part of our job like, don't think about it. Like, I didn't think about it till I got into the profession. It's like, I meet with people, try to say like, hey, I can help you. Right? And try to like sell myself to the other person.

Zack Carter: 08:15

And then like Right. Once they're in therapy, you've gotta keep helping them and they're gonna they're gonna get out. Right? They're gonna be done. Yep.

Zack Carter: 08:21

I'm like, alright, you're not helping me.

Mark Odland: 08:22

I'm I'm

Zack Carter: 08:22

out here. And so like a lot of a lot of people in sales, a lot of people in even therapists would would kill to have, like, a full load and have, like, plenty of people to help, be making good money. And it sounds like there were a lot of things in your life that were that were going well, but yet you still burn out.

Mark Odland: 08:40

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Exactly. I mean, I've got a beautiful, caring, wonderful wife. I've got four amazing kids.

Mark Odland: 08:47

I've got friends, owning businesses, having as many clients as I want, you know, lot of lot of success on paper. Mhmm. Right? But that didn't necessarily shield me

Zack Carter: 09:00

Right. Right. From this. Right? And that's and that's that can be very typical of burnout is that guys listening might say, well, I've got nothing to complain about.

Zack Carter: 09:11

Like, life is going well. I've got a good job. I'm making good money. I've got a family that's awesome. I've got a community.

Zack Carter: 09:20

I've got friends. There's something wrong with me. I shouldn't feel this way. And it's actually very common, even if things are going well, for you to feel burnout. So you can you can hate your job and and not have people around you and get burnout, but it's also super common for a lot to go right.

Zack Carter: 09:37

And it sounds like not everything was going right for you, but it sounds like there was a lot going right, and then there was also some things going wrong, and that's kinda what tipped it over.

Mark Odland: 09:46

That's yeah. That's a great point, Zach. Yeah. There was a lot going right. I mean, it's so many things to be grateful for.

Mark Odland: 09:52

Right? And and and I affirm that gratitude is such an important practice and gives us perspective on how good we have it. But we don't wanna take that so far that we minimize the very real things that we're going through. Right? And, and as guys, sometimes that means we stay busy, we work harder, we ignore our feelings, and we numb out through, you know, an extra glass of wine or a little bit more binge watching on Netflix or fill in the blank.

Mark Odland: 10:22

Right? There's ways to unhealth healthier and unhealthier ways to cope. Right? And again, for me, it was like, man, I'm I'm I'm leading a clinic. I'm trying to infuse faith in the in almost everything I do.

Mark Odland: 10:36

But when it came into my personal life, I was like, yeah. Avoidant. Right? I I wasn't tending to my you know, to those deep emotions and and issues of the the heart and the soul. And, and so I it was kind of a perfect setup in a way.

Mark Odland: 10:51

Yeah. And, and back to the self care, man. Like, it's not selfish to do the self care necessary Mhmm. To avoid those things because it's it's pretty key. It's it's almost like, you know, all these bridges that are crumbling in different places around the country.

Mark Odland: 11:07

Right? And Mhmm. It's like if you wait too long and neglect neglect something too long, then there's a collapse that happens. Wow. And people people are like, what caused the collapse?

Mark Odland: 11:16

You know, what caused the collapse? Was it this heavy machinery that was up there? Was it too many cars at once? It's like, that was just the tipping point. That car was the last straw with all these little cracks in the foundation that building up for years.

Mark Odland: 11:29

Right? So it's actually not fair to to even blame the last thing that made the bridge collapse. It's it's almost more like, have we been tending to those those cracks that have been kind of slowly developing under the surface? Right? And to look at that honestly, to have the courage to do that and to to take care of them Mhmm.

Mark Odland: 11:49

Is not selfish. And even if it takes away time from a little bit of family time or a little thing, you know, guilty sometimes as guys. Like, I shouldn't take away time for my wife to work out or to do do counseling or do this. It's like, man, you can't afford not to, honestly.

Zack Carter: 12:05

That's so good. So let's dig into what are the cracks? What are the things that slowly erode before we had hit our breaking point and we're we're burnout? So as as counselors, we're gonna be looking for six big things in our clients to show, like, hey. What are the things that have been leading to burnout?

Zack Carter: 12:28

So Yep. Let me list them real quick, and then we'll kinda dig into what each of these six things are. So number one, workload. So Mark was just talking about he he was overworking himself. Right?

Zack Carter: 12:40

He had too much on his plate. Now Right. Workload can be from the workplace itself. So if you have a boss that gives you too much too much to do, it it could be that you haven't been setting boundaries. You haven't been saying like, hey.

Zack Carter: 12:54

You know, I'm sorry. This is kinda feeling overwhelmed on my end. What can we do to make sure that we spread out the work amongst different people? Right? And in some workplaces, everybody's overworked.

Zack Carter: 13:07

There there can also so it can be the workplace that is giving you too much work, but it can also be yourself. You're taking on too much. And it sounds like, Mark, that might have been what was on your end is that, like, no one was forcing you to take on all these things. You took them on yourself and said, like, oh, I'm gonna make the extra money. I'm gonna, like, I'm gonna fill up my caseload more and more and more and more and not saying no when it was ideal.

Zack Carter: 13:32

Right? And it sounds like that that might have been what was going on. So number one

Mark Odland: 13:36

That that's right. Mhmm. Yeah. That's right. And and, you know, I think part of it too is knowing that even if I mean, I'm with EMDR therapy, therapy, without trying to oversell it, I've become very good at what I do and lead others, train others in that field.

Mark Odland: 13:53

And yet, over time, sometimes you get people you work with. Like, I've had some clients that, for whatever reason, it just wasn't the right match where I wasn't I wasn't successful in in helping them. I might, you know, help 95% of the the people I work with, but that 5%, that made me feel more and more unsuccessful, right, and more and more drained. And so no matter what job you have, there might be little pockets where it's like, man, this thing just keeps draining me. And in those circumstances, I probably should have, like, had some more honest conversations with those few clients and been like, you know, you've been working so hard.

Mark Odland: 14:34

For whatever reason, our approach isn't working. I wonder if we should explore some other options here. And that probably would have been better for both of us. So that was another big learning moment for me in hindsight is recognize our own limitations. Right?

Mark Odland: 14:48

Even if we're great at what we do, we still have limitations. We still have blind spots. We still have certain pockets where we just need to be you know, just need a little support or need a need a refer, need to be have an open mind.

Zack Carter: 15:01

Mark, that's that's perfect. And that that actually leads us into point number two. So point number one is taking on too much, whether it's your work is putting on too much on you or you're putting too much on yourself. Number two is is control. Right?

Zack Carter: 15:17

And so what does that look like in the workplace? That looks like bosses who are micromanagers, where you have zero control, where you feel like you're told exactly what you have to do. You have no creativity. You have no ability to just, like, kind of do your own thing. Right?

Zack Carter: 15:31

But getting back to what Mark was saying, we can also do this to ourself. Right? So it doesn't necessarily have to be the workplace. So what what Mark was talking about was delegation. Right?

Zack Carter: 15:42

And so as therapists, if we have a client where it's just not working, sometimes that that happens. Right? So that's happened to both me and Mark where we've had some clients where we just don't click. And like in our heads as therapists we're like, of course. Of course, we click with everybody.

Zack Carter: 15:55

And just unfortunately, that's just not the case. Right? Yeah. And so Mark took complete control is what it sounds like. Instead of like delegating and saying like, hey, you there might be someone that's a better fit.

Zack Carter: 16:08

And that that's a hard thing to do as a counselor. One, there's humility involved, but at the same time, we also don't wanna hurt clients feelings. Like, oh, is there something wrong with me? Did I do oh, I'm the one I'm the case that he can't fix. Right?

Zack Carter: 16:20

And so it to be fair to Mark, like, delegation and and can be very difficult even as counselors saying, like, hey. There there might be a better better fit for you. Apparently, like, my approach is just not working. And that's why Mark and I both have different you know, I'm cognitive behavioral therapy focused, and he's EMDR focused. And so EMDR is awesome for trauma.

Zack Carter: 16:47

CBT, cognitive behavioral therapy, has some of that, but it just it it has a harder time digging into trauma in the way that EMDR does. And so sometimes switching over can be the best thing. So number one, we've got workload. Number two, we've got control. Number three is reward.

Zack Carter: 17:05

Right? And so at the workplace that you're working, you could be working hard and feeling like you're not rewarded for it. You can feel like, hey. They're not paying me enough. And sometimes that's accurate.

Zack Carter: 17:17

Sometimes the places that we're working are not paying enough. At the same time, right, so that's that could be the workplace problem. It could be a you problem. Right? And so sometimes you expect to pay that is not realistic for the kind of job that you have.

Zack Carter: 17:33

And I probably had that for years, especially coming out of college, you think like, oh, I'm gonna make a hundred thousand dollars a year in my first job. I ended up working at Lowe's for like $30,000 a year. And I was like I was like, who would pay me $30,000 a year? I deserve way more than this. And that was a me problem.

Zack Carter: 17:52

I didn't have any I didn't have experience. Right? And so like, why did I deserve $30,000 a year for instance? So workload, control, reward. Number four, we've got community.

Zack Carter: 18:06

Do you feel isolated? Do you feel like at your workplace, you aren't able to connect with others or the workplace seems like people don't wanna connect with you? Like, that's even worse. Like, people just it seems like people don't even like you. Right?

Zack Carter: 18:20

That can that can burn you out. It can also be that you're avoiding social situations that everybody's going out and getting drinks afterwards or going to a meal afterwards or going to get coffee or or doing stuff together and you you just don't engage. Right? So if you don't have community, that could also lead to burnout. And I'm curious, Mark, you didn't say this, but Yeah.

Zack Carter: 18:44

I know from my experience in being a pastor in the past, I was a I was a college pastor. They say being at the top can be really lonely. And, you know, you don't have to be, you know, overly overly share if you don't want to, but I was just curious if maybe that had a component of, like, maybe some isolation in the burnout. You didn't mention that, but I was just I was curious on that.

Mark Odland: 19:03

Definitely. I think I see that in myself and also a lot of the guys that I work with who are business owners and entrepreneurs. Mhmm. Right? Because there's this sense of, like, you genuinely build a a certain level of friendship with with, you know, employees and some more than others, but then there's always this thing in the back of your mind.

Mark Odland: 19:26

Well but I'm still the boss. And and so there's this feeling of, like, separation that sometimes happens. And and and it's almost like it's a false dichotomy, but it's almost like if you get too friendly, then you feel like you might lose respect or lose your professionalism or your you know? It's it's so there's there's a a tricky dance, I think, that a lot of business owners do knowing how best to relate. And then throw on top of it, a lot of us as guys are afraid of being vulnerable and being real.

Mark Odland: 19:56

And we with pastors, with business leaders, it's like if we expose our weaknesses, people will think we're incompetent. Mhmm. And so we have to put on somewhat of a facade. And, of course, the irony is sometimes, just being a little more open about our humanity, people disconnect with us even more, and and they get it. And it's it's a worthwhile risk to take.

Mark Odland: 20:16

But Yeah. That's part of the part of the reason why I'm going to Denver on Sunday, for the Dave Ramsey Entre Leadership Summit is because it's gonna be 3,000 people who all feel that way.

Zack Carter: 20:29

Yeah. And and it's like, wait. We've got

Mark Odland: 20:31

this big community of people now who all get it. Dave Ramsey's, like, firing us up. Like, you guys are awesome. And Yeah. Yeah.

Mark Odland: 20:37

Like, you know, you need a little rah rah sometimes. Oh, %. But at the same time, you don't want it to be a once a year summit to build you up. You need you need more lasting community in your everyday life where you don't feel so so, like, isolated for sure. Mhmm.

Zack Carter: 20:53

Yeah. Well, thanks for sharing that, Mark. So it it it sounded like, so far, there's a a few of these components that that you're connecting with in your story. We've got two more. So after community, we have fairness.

Zack Carter: 21:08

And so if you feel like you're being treated poorly in your workplace, that your boss is picking on you, that you're given more work than everybody else, that can a % lead to burnout. Right? That's that can be so frustrating if you feel like you're working for an organization that is just not treating you fair on the other end. Right? So we're going back and forth between the workplace and you because it's and sometimes it's a combination of the two.

Zack Carter: 21:36

You can also perceive poor treatment that's not actually there. Right? Right. So you can say, oh, of course, they give this assignment to me. They always give this assignment to me.

Zack Carter: 21:49

And we don't know what's going oftentimes, we don't know what's going on in the background and who's getting what delegated. Right? And so part of it is having a conversation with your boss and saying, like, this is how I feel. And and you might get an explanation that if this is a boss that cares, obviously. Right.

Zack Carter: 22:07

But you might get an explanation like, dude, I have, like, a system, and I assign equally to everybody, or at least I'm desperately trying to. Like, this person got this. This person got this. And you may say, oh, man. I was just perceiving I was being treated unfairly when in reality, the the treatment was as fair as humanly possible.

Zack Carter: 22:26

So Right. On one hand, it might actually be happening. And on the other hand, it may not. Right? And so we actually have to get get that data to actually know about fairness.

Zack Carter: 22:37

Because if we don't, that fairness can burn us out.

Mark Odland: 22:40

Well, that's right. And and this may be a whole another conversation, Zach, but I wonder I wonder about the relationship between resentment and burnout too. Mhmm. Because just holding that in, holding in that that bitterness or resentment that builds over time, tragically, some of it might be unfounded and based on inaccurate information or perceptions that aren't aren't totally accurate. So, yeah, take some guts to have those hard conversations, but, at least you know what you're dealing with then.

Zack Carter: 23:09

Mhmm. Yeah. A %. Well so if you've been sticking around, great job. We got one more one more thing that could lead to your burnout that you can pay attention for.

Zack Carter: 23:19

And so number six is values. Okay? If you don't feel like you're being properly challenged in your workplace, that that can lead to burnout. Right? Being bored to tears every day.

Zack Carter: 23:33

Or if you feel like you're not valued, right, that you you go the extra mile, you try really hard, and no one notices. That could a % lead to burnout. And that is incumbent on the bosses to take note, to say, hey. I just wanna I wanna take a moment to, like, thank this person Yep. For all their hard work, for doing a good job.

Zack Carter: 23:56

They're doing awesome. And when we feel valued and with us, we wanna feel valued by our clients. Like, we wanna feel valued amongst our peers, but also in in counseling. We wanna feel valued amongst our peers, but we also wanna feel valued with our clients. Right?

Zack Carter: 24:13

And so what you value is so important. So that's in the workplace. And then for you, sometimes the values that we have don't align with the place that we work. Like, maybe you're doing something that you feel like there's something more important in my life that I could be doing. And if if you feel that when you're going to work every day and you're not align yourself aligning yourself with your core values, the the core things that you care about, that leads to burnout.

Zack Carter: 24:43

So those are the six things that that can lead to burnout that as counselors we're looking for in our assessments. That's workload control. Do you have any control over over what you're doing? Reward. Are you being rewarded fairly for your work?

Zack Carter: 25:02

Are you do you have community, or do you feel isolated? Is is your workplace fair, or do you feel like you're being treated poorly? And are you aligned with your values? So, you know, that's the six things I've got. It's it it was definitely interesting, Mark, to kinda see how how how you kinda fell into some of those.

Zack Carter: 25:24

I know in my past, I had a period of time where I I burned out. I was working a forty hour week job at a bank. I was being a college pastor nights and weekends, and then I, like, started my own podcast. I was just doing too I was definitely the workload was huge for sure. I also was hoping for I was hoping to make money on the podcast.

Zack Carter: 25:43

I was hoping to make money in ministry. Those were ignorant thoughts. That tends not to happen. Right? And so I was like, oh, I'm not being rewarded.

Zack Carter: 25:51

And the isolation, like we were talking about, you know, leadership when they say it's lonely at the top, it is true. Like it it's it's very difficult to connect with people and you connect maybe 70% of the way, maybe 80% of the way, but there's always feeling that, like, there's a little bit of a guard I have to have up because I'm in I'm in leadership. And and so there were definitely a few different categories I was falling into at that time that caused burnout for me.

Mark Odland: 26:18

Wow. Well, yeah, thanks for sharing that, Zach. I'd love to hear more sometime about the the depths of that, to what it was like going through those different experiences. And I know from experience that even at Lowe's, you still have a soft spot in your heart because when I told you I went to Home Depot that one time, that you got mad. I remember.

Zack Carter: 26:36

I threatened to quit. I was like, I'm out of here.

Mark Odland: 26:41

But but, you know, joking aside, if you guys are still listening right now, we we really genuinely, appreciate your thoughts. We've been able to respond to most of the comments that come come our way. So, if you've been burned out, throw a comment below. Let us know what that was like, how you got through it, or or if you're in the middle of it. There's a lot of, insights and, and ideas that Zach's throwing your way right now.

Mark Odland: 27:06

And, and just remember that if if you are looking for help, you know, escapethecagenow.com. We offer a a free thirty minute consultation just to test the waters to see if it might be a good fit. So that's all I got on my end, Zach. Do have any closing thoughts, to leave the guys with today?

Zack Carter: 27:25

Yeah. So I I I we we definitely love to give a takeaway. And so if you're like, okay. This is good information, but what do I do? First, like, knowledge is key.

Zack Carter: 27:37

Being able to pay attention and say say, like, okay. So what are the components in my life where I that are causing this burnout? And so even right now, if you wanna write these down and, like, kinda dig through it and think through, you know, is it your workload? Is it that control that you do or do do not have? Is it reward?

Zack Carter: 27:56

Do you do you feel like you need a bigger reward? Is it community? You're isolated. Is it fairness, or it or is it values, or is it a combination? So that's number one.

Zack Carter: 28:07

It's like write down the things. And then secondly, you you you pick the easiest one to fix and start there. So if it's boundaries at work, as long as it's appropriate, maybe you go to your boss and say, hey. You know, I just wanted to share that I've been feeling a bit overwhelmed lately, And I really care about this job, and I really care about this company. What do you think we could do to maybe delegate some of these tasks so that I can just, like, make sure I'm taking care of myself to continue to be a good employee?

Zack Carter: 28:39

Or maybe you have to reframe what how to apply your values at your workplace. So when I was working at a bank, I I didn't wanna work at a bank. I'm bad with numbers. You don't want a banker who's bad with numbers. I was not good with numbers.

Zack Carter: 28:58

Yeah. And so I had to I had to reframe in my head as I was getting frustrated day in and day out having to do this job because that's not where I saw myself. And, genuinely, I had to believe this, and I did. I I reframed it to saying, like, okay. Well, my job here is to help people.

Zack Carter: 29:13

People don't understand finances, and my job is to teach them finances so that they can get out of debt, so that they can save money, so that they can retire. And when I reframed it in that way, I was able to actually apply my values to my job. If you're lastly, if you're a boss or if you run your own company, can you delegate tasks? That's one of the things that Mark said was that he had to make the decision that, like, hey. I'm taking on too much.

Zack Carter: 29:43

How can I pass on some of these tasks to other people? And so these are places you can start to think through and begin to work on that that burnout. Begin to help that burnout.

Mark Odland: 29:55

Love it. Well, thanks, Zach. Thanks for putting together such a great overview of, of this subject. I think it's gonna be a really good really good primer for the guys who are listening, to understand it better and maybe have a few takeaways and, to know that extra support is always there if needed. So Mhmm.

Mark Odland: 30:12

As always, Zach, great talking with you.

Zack Carter: 30:14

Alright. You too, Mark. Bye, everybody. Bye.