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Join us, feminist coaches Taina Brown and Becky Mollenkamp, for casual (and often deep) conversations about business, current events, politics, pop culture, and more. We’re not perfect activists or allies! These are our real-time, messy thoughts as we make sense of the world around us. If you also want to create a more just and equitable world, please join us on the journey to Messy Liberation.
Taina Brown:
Hi, how are you?
Becky Mollenkamp:
Well, to be truthful, not great. Kinda shitty, kinda shitty. But okay, you know. Isn't that what we always do? We always say, "I'm fine," and we're not really fine. So I'm trying to be honest and not do the "I'm fine" when I'm actually kind of in a shitty mood. I was fine a couple of hours ago, and now I'm kind of in a shitty mood.
Taina Brown:
Yeah, something triggered.
Becky Mollenkamp:
Yeah, isn't that funny? Like I just got an email. It's not even a big deal, really. I don't know what it is. I don't know if I'm a highly sensitive person. I know that's a designation that could be, but I feel like that's more about noises. Although those bother me too. So maybe. I don't know if it's because I'm a Pisces. Oops, I need to cancel my notifications. I'm not even gonna edit that out, everyone. I don't know if it's because I'm a Pisces and we're notoriously sensitive.
I don't know what it is. I just know that when one little thing goes wrong or it's not even about it going wrong, but when there's one little thing that feels like it could potentially be some sort of judgment on me, it just takes me down. It makes me sad. And I hate that that happens. So I got an email from somebody saying they didn't want to be part of a community I run. It's totally valid. They were very kind to say it's not about me or anything, just wasn't the right fit. And still, I immediately felt all the energy drained out of me. And I'm just like even though I can objectively realize like, it's not about me and it's fine, like my brain sort of catastrophizes first, going like, "Well, now everyone's gonna wanna leave the community. What's the point of even having this community? You suck." And there was also that part, it like goes, it catastrophizes to the worst case scenario. And then it also creates like the shame and makes it about me, like, "You suck, you're the reason, why can't you do better?” All from one silly email. Like, it's just wild how my brain does that and runs, runs away with those sorts of thoughts. Even when objectively I'm sitting here going, "Brain, don't be silly, that's not true." And then it derails me for at least hours, if not the whole day.
Taina Brown:
Wow. I'm a Pisces moon, so I kind of feel that a little bit. I don't think I catastrophize as hard as you do, probably. But my wife does. My wife does. She has similar moments like that where everything could be going great and then just one thing just kind of disrupts. We call it a spiral of catastrophe, right? Like you just kind of get out of control. I'm trying not to put on my coach hat right now.
Becky Mollenkamp:
I mean, it's okay if you do a little, like, cause I can objectively, although it might be helpful for other people listening that have the same thing. And it's funny because I'm okay when things don't go the way I expect. Like if I'm doing a project and there's a wrench that gets thrown into the plans and we have to come up with a plan B, like that kind of stuff doesn't bother me. It's things that my brain can turn on and make it about me. Like, so this is a community I run, so someone's leaving, so it feels personal, even though I know it's not, I hope it's not, you see, even though my brain's still going, "Even though she said it's not," like there's this little part of me going, "But is it?" But anyway, but anything that my brain can make about me. Like, it's not, I'm not in all scenarios, am I going down the like, this is, you know, this is all ruined now because I couldn't figure out how to do X, Y, or Z. I don't know. So like, I have some growth mindset in that like, I will very often be like, let's figure out how to make this work. What do I do? But when it's something that feels like a judgment on me and my worth or my ability or whatever, then that's where I immediately go into like, worst-case scenarios and all of that.
Taina Brown:
Yeah. I mean, I think part of that is a little normal, right? Because the things that we build, the things that we put our hands to do, it is a reflection of us, right? So in some way, I would think it would be weird if you didn't feel that way at all. If you were just like, "Well, that's just that person," right? I don't know.
Becky Mollenkamp:
You think so? That makes me feel a little better because I feel like it's extreme. Maybe it's not because of your first reaction. Now we'll see was like, and that made me immediately go, "Shit, I am fucked up." Like it's not normal. Well, we are. But in this particular way, I feel extremely fucked up. And of course, we're all fucked up. You're right.
Taina Brown:
Yes, you are, we're all fucked up, like honestly, but yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp:
And I'm sure that if I think hard enough, it has something to do with like my core wounding and trauma and all that kind of stuff, right? Which is actually not that hard for me to figure out because I have a lot of abandonment issues and feeling not particularly wanted. And so I think it probably very much goes to that. So there is the trauma piece that's always at play. Okay, so maybe your wounds are different and maybe you're in this exact sort of situation doesn't apply. But when you have something that it triggers or hits a spot, hits a nerve for you, and that's a wounded soft spot like this is for me, how do you pull yourself out of that? Because I think I'm in that very much. I have an open wound. You just poked it and it's feeling very tender, right? Like, there's that wound again, which by the way, like as I'm talking this out, okay, this is becoming real therapeutic, which is probably, because I do, I am seeing like, shit, this is probably that core abandonment wound of like, this like core feeling of not being wanted, which I often fight off by being the one who leaves first or like I reject first so that I don't have to be rejected and when I feel rejected. And so this like relates to like a client. If a client doesn't renew with me or if I have a discovery call and they don't book with me or in the space of, you know, I'm running a community and then they opt out. Those kinds of things all feel like even like unsubscribes, right? Like silliest things all feel like I think they're hitting that core wound and feeling like I'm feeling soft and tender and vulnerable in those moments, right? And I think going back to that unsafe place. So when that comes up, for you in your own way, we all have it, what are the things that help you like tend to yourself so that you can get back to functioning?
Taina Brown:
Yeah, yeah, that's, I think it's a little bit different every time. The one thing I want to say is like, I'm really good at rationalizing, right? And I also have abandonment wounds, like really, really bad abandonment wounds. So like, I think it's one thing to like intellectually understand what's happening, but a completely different thing to like actually like, feel it and feel your way through it. And for a long time, felt like thinking about it intellectually was enough, right? But then like something really devastating would happen and it would just like, the flood gates would open up and it was like, shit, okay, this has all just kind of been building for however long. And so what I try to do now is just let myself feel like shit. Like just let the feelings be there. Like try not to fight the feelings. I'm getting emotional just talking this out. But yeah, just like, because the feelings are there as data points, right? And again, this is, this is how I try to like merge the feeling side of myself and like the intellectual side of myself, right? The feelings are there as data to like, communicate something to me about myself that I'm blind to or that I need to spend some time with. And if I try to rush away from the feelings, I miss out on that information. And I say this, but with the caveat that like, I don't always do this. Like there is more often than not. I'm trying to rush out of the feelings because I don't want to feel that way, right? Or I'm trying to ignore it. But when I do allow myself to think of the feelings as feelings are our friends, Fish are our friends. Then it helps me to just discover something about myself that allows me to move through it, I think, in the best way possible, even though it can be uncomfortable in that moment. So that's been the strategy that I've been working on. That's been my method that I've been working on. Just a few weeks ago, I don't know what was going on in the stars or if it's just like, I don't know, 2024 has been such a shitty year for me so far, but I went through a couple of weeks where it was just like, I felt like I was reliving these core moments that triggered my abandonment issues. And so it was just really, really heavy and I could barely get out of bed. It was really bad. And so eventually I was just like, I have to let myself sit with this and I have to find a way to explore this. And so when I felt ready to explore it, when I felt ready to like get out of bed and do things, like I just, wrote, I wrote about it for a little bit. And that, that really helped to just kind of unlock the door to the other side of it. I don't know if that, if that's helpful or if that makes sense.
Becky Mollenkamp:
Yeah, well, what I'm thinking is that everyone just needs to have a podcast like this where they come and talk the shit out. Because what I'm noticing, I'm already feeling different, which is great because I can feel some of this moving through me. I really honestly think even though I think maybe intellectually, I would get that this is like an abandonment wounding thing. In the moment, none of that came up because I think my body just immediately went into protective mode of like, it went into fight, fight, freeze. And my response, is typically like flight. I'm a flight kind of gal. And so like I could feel so as I'm thinking through it. The email comes, I see it, and I immediately feel this pit in my stomach, and I can feel my body kind of going concave. This is this feeling of shrinking in, and I think that's my body signaling, "You're feeling little again. You're feeling little you," right? So I think it was this going into this youthful kind of state of getting small, and then I could feel, I think the catastrophizing piece, my brain goes there as this flight mechanism of saying, "well, everything's shit anyway. Everyone's gonna leave. You should just fold this thing. Just don't even bother with it," right? Like, because that's where my brain immediately goes to. And I think that is my version of flight of like, well, then if I close it all down, no one else can reject me, right? No one else can leave because I'll shut it down first. Like, I don't think my brain was getting all that, it was just like going spiraling. But as I think it through, I'm like, yeah, this is just, it is just that core wounding around feeling abandoned, feeling unloved, unworthy of love that no one wants me, right? That feeling, feeling small like that again. And then the reaction being, well, then I need to protect myself by like the way that my protection always showed up is, well, then I will make sure that you can't reject me, right? So I will just make sure that I'm out of here. And so I think that's where that like, so let's just give up. Let's just close it all down. It's not really like a depressed reaction. Like it's not like, I guess it's catastrophizing, but what it really is is flight. I can see it now as that's flight. That's exactly what I do. And this is just another way that I was like, my brain is trying to go into that. It's that automatic response, right? Like this is what it knows to do. When that feeling comes up, it knows time to flee. We gotta get away from this, right? So then in this situation, in a business situation, what does that look like? For this, it looks like, then let's just close it down, because then no one else can reject you. And just talking it all through and like making those connections, as you were saying, taking time to actually feel it instead of just being like, "It's fine," or what I was trying to do, which is like, "How do I just fucking get through the day and like put this behind me?" I was trying to rationalize, like, "This is stupid. Stop being stupid. You know that this isn't about you. Get over yourself." You know, that kind of stuff that we do. And it wasn't working. But I actually feel much lighter now just by making those connections, talking it through with you, making those connections. Because then I can tend to that part of myself to say like, "baby, you're okay," right? Like, "This is not about that. And you can protect yourself now and you don't have to flee, right? Like there are other people in this community that do want you and that do need you and they're gonna be there for you. And even if they aren't, you're there for yourself." But yeah, anyway, I don't know. That was really helpful. And ended up being therapy. So I think for me the takeaway is talk it out. I love what you said about feeling your feelings, but then like I like it as information because I think just feeling my feelings, we hear that all the time, feels like maybe for the heady folks here, the intellectuals, the people who are more intellectual with these things like us, intellectual makes it sound like I'm judging people who aren't. I'm saying people who are more in their brain than people who aren't, right? The people who are less somatic and a little more in their head. For those kinds of folks, saying, "Feel your feelings," first of all, it feels impossible and hard and overwhelming and icky, but it also feels kind of pointless in a way, right? Like, "What am I going to just sit there and wallow in my feelings?" So thinking of it as feelings as information, I love that because it makes me think, "Okay, so what is this feeling telling me?" Which is that when you said that, that's where I started to go like, "Okay, where was I feeling it in my body?" And I was going back to getting the email and what did that feel like? And then what is that telling me? And it made me like suddenly feel like, "Yeah, I was feeling small like my little youthful self and like it's it helps to start making some of those connections so that was really helpful.
Taina Brown:
I'm glad. When this has happened before, how do you usually manage it?
Becky Mollenkamp:
Exactly the other things I said. I try to push through, soldier through it, right? I try to talk myself out of it. I mean, there are times when I manage to feel, like do what we did here, right? But often I'm like very much in my head trying to use logic and reason. And the thing is, and I tell clients this all the time, but it's hard for yourself. You can't use logic and reason on these core wounding things because they aren't logical. They happened when you were a child who didn't have any logic and reason. Those kinds of core wounds are not up in your brains. They are in our bodies, right? And trying to logic and reason with it doesn't work. You have to feel it. But I will often try to just logic reason, push through, ignore it, and then do a lot of flight. I go to my fight, fight, freeze. I go to flight all the time where it's just like, I'm just gonna, this is probably why I also have a bit of a track record of starting and finishing, starting, not finishing things. Like I love the start because that's when people are excited and they're coming on board and they're there saying, "I like you. I like this thing you're doing. I want to be with you." When the churn starts to happen, when people aren't renewing, they aren't buying as much anymore. They aren't saying, giving me that positive, that like, "Yes, we still care about you. We still love you. You're still worthy." When I start to lose that, I start to fizzle out on things and let things go, which I'm seeing could be a bit of a pattern related to that trauma as well in my typical trauma response of fleeing.
Taina Brown:
Wow. Yeah. That just like, I feel like that just kind of hit me in the gut because I'm that way with my business. Like starting. Yeah. Yeah. Starting something is really exciting. And then after a while, when it feels like there's either no response or not the response I was expecting, I'm just like, I'm just going to give up.
Becky Mollenkamp:
Yeah, totally. Because I guess in those moments I haven't done, there's still clearly a lot of work here in this core wound of mine that needs to be tended to because in those moments I haven't developed the understanding, first of all, but even if I think I could make that understanding, which I am here, I don't know if I have the full strength yet to be like, "I can love myself and protect myself through the discomfort of waiting for people to come on board or of people saying, 'No, this isn't for me.'" Because that's really, really, really hard for me. And that is where I've had this track record of I have started so many different things. And the second it gets hard, I mean, just this summer, I started a new membership and one person signed up. I barely talked about it. Right? I sent out to a few people. One of those people signed up. None of the rest did. I think I did one follow-up email. So like literally two emails to maybe 50 people or something. One person signed up and that was it for me. I was like, "I'm done." I like, could feel myself shut down as soon as people don't immediately give me the feedback I'm looking for, which is, I mean, ultimately is, "We like you. You're good enough. We want you," right? You're wanted.
Taina Brown:
Yeah, acceptance, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp:
As soon as I don't feel that then I'm like, I'm out of here. This is way uncomfy. I'm done. Even though my brain will say something else to me. It will go into like marketing mode of like, maybe your messaging wasn't right or this offer isn't fully formulated or blah blah blah. Like it'll start to go there. But as I'm reflecting on this, I think if I'm really honest, I think a lot of that like fleeing quickly, shutting things down quickly, not following through or sticking with something is absolutely about that core wound of abandonment. Ew.
Taina Brown:
Yeah. So how do you separate yourself from the business then?
Becky Mollenkamp:
You don't. Can you? Do you? I don't think so. I mean, I think this idea of trying to act as though we have a siloed existence of business Becky is one person and personal Becky is another, to me, it just doesn't make sense because I'm still, that core wound is inside of me no matter where I am. It's still there and it's going to get triggered by, clearly this email was nothing about, it was strictly business. And if I were able to silo off my emotions, then it wouldn't have bothered me at all. But like, I'm still showing up as my full self inside of my business. And so I don't know how I could separate those things.
Taina Brown:
Yeah, yeah. Because I've heard other business owners who run primarily service-based businesses, right? Say things online like, "You know, think of your business as an entity outside of yourself, and that's how you should approach it." And so I think there's a way to not detach yourself from it, but kind of step outside of it to just kind of see the big picture. But I think the challenge becomes in figuring out how to do that back and forth, right? Like how to be in it, but then like when you need to step outside of it to just kind of like see the bigger picture, like it's not like a one-time thing that you do where you're just like, "Okay, I'm stepping outside of it and now I'm completely outside of it forever." I think it's a back and forth and at least that is what kind of makes sense to me in my head, but I haven't quite figured out how to do that.
Becky Mollenkamp:
Yeah, I haven't either, other than these kinds of situations, which is why I think I crave community so much, even though I'm like deeply, deeply introverted and need massive amounts of alone time to recover. When I'm alone though, I will think things through. I can get really in my head. But the problem is once I'm in there, I have a hard time seeing the forest for the trees, right? Like everything gets very jumbled and like I'm a verbal processor despite being very introverted, if that makes sense. And so like I need community spaces to be able to talk things out because being able to get it outside of myself, first of all, just through talking, like I can start to see it a little more in front of me. And then having other people reflecting what they're seeing as I bring it out also helps me with being able to sort of remove it from myself. When I'm trying to do that internally, I just can't do it. I try, but I just can't seem to do it. And so I don't know if that's just the verbal processor part of me or what. But that's, I guess for me, the thing that helps me the most with trying to do that is community and having a space that I can go to with people that share values that I can trust, that I can have those kinds of conversations with and get some outside perspective. And honestly, sometimes I don't even need the perspective. I just need a space in which to speak it. And I've tried it alone, it doesn't even work speaking out loud to myself. I don't know what it is, or something about having someone else there that helps.
Taina Brown:
Yeah, yeah, no, I can see that. Because I'm the same way. If it's just me, it's like a ball of yarn, right? Just all tangled up and whatnot. But if I have someone to just kind of bounce ideas off of or just to listen, then things start to click much faster. And I just want to say also, I think you're great at building community. The podcast collective, the FEO, like the feminist founders, there's so many. Those communities, I think, are just really awesome people in those spaces.
Becky Mollenkamp:
Isn't it fun how my brain can hear that? And I love that, thank you. And I can see spaces I'm in, the particular community, this person left, there's like 25 of us, one person left. I can't see the other 20 people or whatever that have been giving me, like not all of those 20 people are giving me incredible feedback, but there's at least a handful of them that are constantly telling me how much the community means to them and how much it's helping them and that they really love it. And like, I see that stuff and it's just kind of like water off a duck's back. Like it just comes and goes. But an email from somebody saying, "This community isn't for me," is like a punch to the gut. But that's just, I think that's how core trauma and like wounding works, right? Like it's the thing that reinforces the narrative, the thing we want to believe or that we've been made to believe is that stuff that sticks. Anyway, this has been helpful though. Not that we needed to do therapy in front of everyone, but I'm hopeful it's helpful for other people too though, because I can't be the only person. I mean, it sounds like we share similar wounding, how it gets triggered or how it manifests or the ways we respond to it might not be the same, but I think just for anyone to like notice, I think for anything, I think the thing that comes out of it for me the most is. Whenever you're upset about anything, but I think as a business owner in particular, is to really investigate like, is the story that my brain's telling me the truth, right? Is there something else here? And I love that like also, like, so what are the feelings? What's the information these feelings are giving me? And I also think the somatic experience of that, like where am I feeling it? Not just what are the feelings, but like, where am I feeling those feelings in my body? And what messages might that be giving me? Because I think with a little investigation, so much of the stuff that we believe to be true, about like, "Business needs to look like I need to do this thing or this thing means this thing." Very often it's not at all that, right? Even when we think we're being objective, I mean, it's impossible to be objective.
Taina Brown:
It's yeah, it's impossible to be completely objective, you know, and I think in a situation like that, too, like there's a little part of you that probably is grieving that loss, right? Even though it to some people, might seem like not really a loss, but because you are so invested in building these communities, like it feels it's going to feel like a loss whenever someone wants to leave. And so allowing space for you to grieve that. Right. Is going to be important too, I think.
Becky Mollenkamp:
Yeah, well, and someone told me too that grief is just because I think we often think of grief around like death. And for sure, that's grief, and I've had that kind of grief. But I think it's important to know that grief is just, it's loss, but it's also just when something isn't what you thought it would be, right? Like when something doesn't go the way you thought it would be, which even can be, we often have to have grief around things that are really positive too, right? So like getting married or having a baby, like these are things we wanted, but then we may also be grieving the change, that loss of what was, of like my single self or my childless self and like so I think it's important remember that and so I definitely think that there's grief inside of that. So yeah, and I We had down to talk about and I think we should at some point to better talk about grief I don't want to too far down the rabbit hole because I feel like it'll take forever and I want to talk about your neighbor Which is the other thing we were gonna talk about but I do feel like something I need to work on is grief practices like some rituals or something to help with grief. And like in those moments when I recognize there's some grief of like, what are some of the rituals that could help me? So maybe that's something we can put on our notes to talk about when we talk about grief, because that's something that I think about a lot. I talk to clients about a lot, and then I'm like, what are my own practices? I don't really have any, you know, other than for like death. And that's really just because other people have created those practices and I just observe their practices. So anyway, I think that could be interesting to talk about.
Taina Brown:
Yeah. That'd be an interesting conversation. I have some thoughts about that because grief came up in a group program I was running and it ended up taking over. And so I had to like pivot, you know, and so which, but it ended up being really, really good.
Becky Mollenkamp:
Well, and who was I? Where was I? I'm not gonna go too far down that. Doesn't matter where it was, but just recently I was on a call. It was a networking call, which those calls for anyone listening, it's a networking group that I helped create and that Taina's part of. And we have pretty deep conversations because we all get to know each other and we all have these sort of same shared values. And people were talking about like their own experiences with their kids in schools and stuff and how things have changed. We all sort of like this idea of grieving for the life we could have had if patriarchy didn't exist, if racism didn't exist, if all of these like structures and systems were different, that grief of what life could have been for us. And I was like, that's heavy too. So like, just feel like grief comes up all the time because it's such a, I mean, it is like a critical part of our lives and one that I think doesn't get taught. Okay, so let's put a pin in it because I want to come back to grief and if it deserves its own episode. Okay, so thank you for helping me with my issue. We were just gonna talk about like the shit that's happening right now in our lives and like random shit that is keeping us up at night or whatever and so you have a problematic neighbor. I can't wait to hear the story.
Taina Brown:
Yes, I do. We just bought a house earlier this year. It's a townhouse set up like a duplex. We live in Baltimore, it's a lot of townhomes and real homes. That's the architectural style here. We bought it because we were tired of renting, spending so much money on renting. We needed a backyard for the dogs and it's really, a quiet neighborhood. There's like an athletic field across the street. So we don't have a whole bunch of neighbors. So it's pretty quiet. But so we share a wall with one neighbor. We'll call her Lilith. I don't want to put real names out there just in case. And then on the other side of our driveway. So we have our driveway and then like a little patch of grass and then another driveway. And then it's the next set of townhomes. So on the other side, we have an older white male neighbor. We'll call him Peter. Chad. No, he's not quite as bad as a Chad. We'll call him Peter. So it was him and his wife. His wife passed a few weeks ago, which was really sad. Both of our neighbors are really, they're just really nice. They've been really welcoming to us. They're really nice. But Peter.
Becky Mollenkamp:
Chad, okay.
Taina Brown:
He's an older white man, has historically voted Republican. So, you know, just some like microaggressions.
Becky Mollenkamp:
And isn't Baltimore pretty overwhelmingly Democrat, if I'm not mistaken? Like, because you're in the city, right? Like you're in the city. Yeah, and it's pretty, pretty blue, I thought.
Taina Brown:
Yeah, yeah. We're in the city. Yeah, we're in Baltimore City. Yeah. It's very blue. So, you know, he's, he said some things here and there that, you know, are a little bit problematic and we're just like, well, I'm trying to think of something super specific.
Becky Mollenkamp:
You want to give any examples or no? Just to give a flavor of the kinds of problematic things?
Taina Brown:
Like, so it's summer, right? It's summer now. It might not be summer when listener as you're listening to this, but it's summer as we're recording it. Yeah, it's their winter. Yeah, if you're listening in the future or in the Southern Hemisphere, it's not your summer, but it's August, so it's summer for us. And there's not a lot for like teenagers to do here, which is part of the reason why a lot of the crime rate is so high because, you know,
Becky Mollenkamp:
If we have Australian listeners or something, when they're listening to it, I gotcha. If you're listening in the future.
Taina Brown:
When there's nothing to do, kids get into trouble. And he was complaining about some of the Black kids who just ride around in their motorized bicycles. And just like, they're making so much noise, blah, blah, blah. I'm going to call the cops. It's just like, dude, it's a park across the street. That's what it's there for, for kids to have fun. Chill the fuck out. So we're trying to keep the peace. We're trying to keep the peace because he is our neighbor and we're not necessarily giving him a pass, but we are a bit avoidant, right? Because we also spend a lot of time outdoors because of our dogs. So it's somewhat gotten to the point where we're just like, is Peter outside? Should we wait? And so we're trying to like come to terms with that and figure out the best way to handle him. Also, and this is going to sound really horrible, but I'm not sure how much longer he's gonna live. You know, cause he's really old, his wife just died, and usually older men don't last much longer after their wife, who is basically their caretaker, passes. He did tell my wife, he's a talker, he has a lot of dad jokes, and he gets a little too personal sometimes. He told my wife about some extra skin on his groin area that he had to go to the doctor for. Yes, yes, it's just... Yeah. I know, I know. I was just like... My wife started telling me and I was like, I don't want to know anything else. Just stop talking. Please don't tell me what he told you. But, okay, so...
Becky Mollenkamp:
Okay, now that's the most problematic thing you've said. My God, that's so inappropriate. I don't even know. Well, like, I wouldn't even know how to react to that.
Taina Brown:
The people that we bought the house from, to get to my question, so it was an older woman who lived here. She bought it when they first built it in the 60s. And in recent years, she developed dementia. So her family put her in a nursing home, a caretaking facility. Some wannabe investors bought the house from them and did a few things to like, quote unquote, flip it. I'm doing air quotes because, according to them, they flipped it. They didn't really do hardly anything. And we bought it from them. So we're really the third owners, the second set of people actually living in the home. So the older lady who was the original homeowner, she planted this magnolia tree in the strip of grass between our two driveways. He wants to cut it down. And we're just like, we don't want to cut it down, one, because we want to honor the original homeowner. Plus, it's a tree. It brings shade. It helps with the atmosphere, right? Ecologically speaking, we're trying to minimize how many trees are getting cut down. But he's like, won't let it go. And so I don't know if we should just give in to just kind of like... And I hate to use the phrase "keep the peace" because that's often used to repress people. But I will say I don't know if we should give in to just consider the relationship that we're trying to have with our neighbors or if we should just be like, "No, we're not cutting down the fucking tree." It's the tree of stake.
Becky Mollenkamp:
How long do you think he has? Is it on your land or his? Is he wanting you to pay, like does it need to, can you take it down or would you have to pay to get it taken down?
Taina Brown:
We would have to pay to take it down. He said he would split the cost.
Becky Mollenkamp:
Then hell no, I wouldn't do it. No, I would say we love the tree. If you're that invested in taking it down, we could talk about you paying for it, but we love the tree. I mean, I don't know why it would need to even be... I mean, it's hard, but I don't know. I think I would just be like, "Yeah, I know you don't love it. We really love the tree." And just like every time he talks about it, you're like, "We just really love the tree." Like, I don't know. Or I would, I mean, I guess if he was kept bringing up like, you know, we just don't really have a problem with the tree. You know, we really like the tree. Like, I think that'd just have to be my response. It'd be different if it was like a shared responsibility where, I don't know, something, some clear thing where he has some actual legal stake in it or something, but if he doesn't, I would just... I would try not to be rude about it. I think I would just be like, "Yeah, I know, but we just really like the tree." Like, I think that would just be kind of my response. But also, just to be clear, I don't care very much about people on the whole. And I'm not a big person to worry about relationships. I'm a person who's like a family by choice, like friends because I want them to be. Like, I'm not somebody who's like, "I'm going to maintain relationships just because we're family or just because I've known you a long time or just because of proximity." Like, I'm just not somebody who's like that. My husband's much more the kind of person who's like, "Keep the peace with the neighbors." He's the one who will talk to our old neighbor who comes over and just blah, blah, blah. I'm like, I just walk away. Like I just am not that kind of person, which I know people probably think I'm a giant bitch. Like my kid's friends' parents probably are like, she's cold. She's a bitch because I'm just not, I don't like small talk, first of all, as an introvert. And secondly, like I definitely am not interested in talking with people that I know have like, we just aren't values aligned and there'd be no point. And so yeah, I'm not the person who's like very concerned about the feelings of that. So you might want, I think you also have to think about like how you show up in the world, because I know I'm wired very differently, probably because of the abandonment stuff we talked about where I'm a little less like worried about it. I think my reaction, I think some people who have abandonment issues, their response is to be more concerned, like to get into that people pleasing, "I'll do whatever it takes, just love me." And I am wired sort of the opposite. Like mine was more of that, like I said, the flight of like, "Fuck you then, I'll just get out here before you can hurt me," kind of a thing where I, and that has looked like I've had a hard time establishing bonds with people. And so sometimes that helps me though, because I'm not much of a people pleaser. At least not, I want to care for people I care about, but like with strangers and stuff, I'm just never really all that concerned. And my husband's the opposite where he's very concerned about like, "They're going to think we're horrible or whatever." And I'm always kind of like, "I don't fucking care." Right? Like, so, so I guess it depends on how you and your wife are wired and how much you care about his feelings, his impressions of you, all of that. But like, it doesn't sound like you're the kind of neighbors that are having barbecues together or like, you don't have like, sometimes there are things I will now do because of my kid having friends, being friends with somebody's kid and like, you know, there might be some things just for the sake of the kids that I might do more than I would normally have or whatever. But generally I'm the kind of person who's like, I mean, I don't even have relationships with most of my family because we just don't like, we don't share values. So why would I?
Taina Brown:
No, definitely not.
Becky Mollenkamp:
Like I wouldn't choose to be friends with you. That's sort of my philosophy is like, if I wouldn't choose to be friends with you, then why am I going to be friends with you just because I live next door to you or because we're related?
Taina Brown:
No, I'm actually the exact same way. My wife is the, you know, super friendly, like, talk to everybody kind of person, and I'm just like, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp:
Then let her be that one. That's what I do with my husband. I let him be the, I'm like, okay. And I walk away, I let him take charge of all of that kind of stuff. And when there's issues, anything that you need to talk about with the neighbors or something, I just, he does it. I walk away and they're very used to, think they're used to that. I'm just like, I'm out of here. And I let him do it. We do talk though about like, where are we taking a stand or what do we think about something? And I do get worried sometimes because left to his own devices, he would be a little more people pleasing than I would. And I do worry sometimes of like, are you going to stand firm on what we've talked about? You have to be careful with that too, of like leaving them be. So yeah.
Taina Brown:
Yeah, no one. Well, one, thank you, because this is our first time being homeowners. So I'm just like, we doing, like, how do we navigate this? Like, should we just like... It's a money pit. Like, even if you get a good home, a good solid home, it's still a money pit. Like, it always needs something.
Becky Mollenkamp:
Well, welcome to the bottomless pit. That's all it is. I'm on my one, two, this is my fourth home that I've owned or co-owned with a partner. And this is the first one where we've made money, where we will, like if we were to sell it today, where we actually have sizable equity, every other time I have either barely gotten out or have, in most cases, I have lost massive amounts of money on home ownership.
Taina Brown:
God, don't tell me that.
Becky Mollenkamp:
Yeah, but you're in a different time now. Like I'm hopeful that this means that you'll have a good, like right now this home we're sitting on is the first time I'm like, "Holy crap." Like I now I get what people use. Like people have always talked about money, all this equity in homes and how it's like the best investment you can make. And I have been like, what the fuck are you talking about? I have lost money, but I think it has been poorly timed. Like I have bought at the wrong time and sold at the wrong time in previous situations. Well, two homes, I lost money on two homes. The third one, we would lose money on it, but we're renting it. So that's another option just to keep in mind, because that means it's now making money instead of what would happen, which is losing money if we sold it. But anyway, it's hard because you're constantly putting money. It's just a never-ending, like this needs to be done and this needs to be done. But then also, like I got to paint my walls blue and I don't have to worry about who's gonna tell me what. I can plant what we, my husband has gardens and he can make them what he wants them to be. Like there's so many nice things about owning a home.
Taina Brown:
Yeah, yeah, it's a little bit of a trade-off, but it does, whenever you do have to like, almost immediately after we moved in, we had to spend almost $9,000 on electrical work. And it was just like, my God, what? Yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp:
It is painful, isn't it? Like, it's just like, my God, where, and then you think, "Okay, then that's done, all right." But then something else comes along and you're like, ugh.
Taina Brown:
Yeah, yeah, the roof is next and then the windows. So yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp:
And then the walls. Yeah, it's just so much. It doesn't. And then by the time you get it all done, then you're like, "Our kitchen's out of date." Then you do that. And then the bathrooms now, because you've made that look better, now the bathrooms look bad. So now you gotta get those done. And then I swear by the time you get through the whole thing, you're a decade later and now everything's looking out of date again. Where you're like, "Nah, I gotta start back at the start." And it's just like, my God, is this worth it? It's so hard. You know, it is what it is. I don't think we have any questions to answer this time, but maybe we could pose a question. I'm trying to think if I have one, because we wanted to encourage our wonderful listeners to give us questions, because we really want to try and incorporate you all, whoever you are, while you're taking your shower or driving or whatever you're doing right now, speaking to you. We want your questions, because we want to talk about what you also want to hear about. But we thought we might throw a question out to end things. I don't know if you have one in mind.
Taina Brown:
Yeah, I mean, I think it'd be interesting to hear from people about how they navigate their relationships with their neighbors. Do they have any cranky neighbors that tell them about a growth on their penis? Like, our neighbor has told us.
Becky Mollenkamp:
God, I would love to know, I would love to hear questions, but I would also just love to hear that. What is the weirdest thing that's ever happened with your neighbors? So here's mine, which is not nearly as gross as that, but the weirdest thing that ever happened was we were at a place I lived 15, 20 years ago. It was a really quiet street. We had block parties, which was really nice. It was very, like it was quintessential Iowa where I lived and like everyone talked to everyone and all of that. So we were having our annual block party and everyone was out eating because it was a potluck thing. And someone was talking about, moving. He was like, "We're looking at this house wherever blah blah blah." And someone said, "The one at blah blah blah." And they're like, "Yeah, that one." And she's like, "You can't afford that house." And he was like, taken aback. And was like, "What?" He's like, "I know what you make." Because he was a public officer of like, he was like, he worked for the city. So we found out that our neighbor had been researching what we all make, like, taking the time to find out what this person earned and then have the audacity to, like, say that they had done it. Like, if you're doing that, why would you tell anyone, "Hey, by the way, I mean, listen, I cyber-stalk my kids' teachers on Facebook if I can find them just to get a feel for, are they normal, sane? And I have looked at their salaries only because I've looked at what the school pays because I pay the money to, like pay those salaries and I'm curious if my kids' teachers are making what they should be making, and by the way, they're not, but I had never looked up what my neighbor earns and have never said, "I know what you make and you can't afford that house." So that was mine.
Taina Brown:
Why would you say something like that? That's incredibly inappropriate.
Becky Mollenkamp:
Right? It's just wild. Also saw my other neighbor wheeled out on a stretcher after she died, which was really depressing. So there's that, but they didn't say anything. I know. Yeah. She had been housebound for, since we've been here for 10 years or more. I think she might've been like 15, 20 years. I think she had agoraphobia or something. And then she passed one day.
Taina Brown:
Oof. Oh my God. Wow.
Becky Mollenkamp:
Ambulance showed up and then out came the stretcher with the body bag. I was like, whoa, that was wild too. So those are my weird neighbor story is not as good as what's this growth on my penis, but still. So if you're listening, messy liberation at gmail .com, please send us your weirdest neighbor story and or any questions about navigating relationships, neighbor relationships or other ones. Cause I think we'd love to talk about that. We'll just end there then. Is that good?
Taina Brown:
Or tag us on social media.
Becky Mollenkamp:
Please, we're messy liberation most places. I think it might be messy liberation pod on TikTok because I think the other was taken. Yeah, you can find us on the socials. Taina is doing an amazing job there of managing all of that. So thank you. So go find us there. Send us an email, messy liberation .gmail .com. And thank you, Taina, because I feel way better now. Like I really do. I feel like I tended to that stuff. I've understood it.
Taina Brown:
I'm glad.
Becky Mollenkamp:
I can breathe through it and realize it's going to be okay. And now I can go and like go about my day, which feels really nice. So thank you. Can we just do this every morning so I can deal with whatever issue is going on? I need that every morning. So everyone go do that. Like find yourself a friend to have a podcast with and just turn it into your therapy session. And it's really good. Thank you.
Taina Brown:
Yeah, yeah. A quick therapy check in.