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The world is just so interesting that it's impossible not to be fascinated by it, and the people who inhabit it. Join host Dave Moss on this long-form interview podcast, as he follows his curiosity to learn new things from some of the most fascinating people and hopefully introduce you to some amazing things along the way.
Dave Moss (00:01.538)
All right, so here we go. My friend Jos, I was telling you before we started recording that when I had this idea that you were the top of my list of people that I wanted to have on this podcast, just because you are possibly one of the most fascinating people that I've ever had conversations with. Your breadth and depth of knowledge is just unbelievable to me. And this was a little...
JOS WOODSMITH (00:03.602)
Yeah.
Dave Moss (00:31.034)
selfish, selfish thing for me to want to know more about you. And one of the first things I wanted to know, because I don't know this, this part of your journey is, is how is how it'll begin. You are a photographer and that's how I knew you. But I feel like the story of Joss has got to be
an interesting one, a circuitous one, is full of twists and tails and damsels and dragons. So did you grow up, you live now in Portland, Oregon, but is that where you grew up? Is that where the story began?
JOS WOODSMITH (01:02.88)
Hahaha
JOS WOODSMITH (01:12.254)
Yeah, I, you know, I was lucky. I was very, very lucky. My father, first of all, he grew up in Nebraska and he grew up with six brothers and one sister and they were dirt poor, they had nothing. I remember my father telling me how he and his brothers would go to the local bakery and rake the dust off the ground and sort out the wheat kernels from the dust. Take the wheat kernels home and make bread.
And I think that stirred a passion in him, not only to have compassion for others, but it built this tremendous momentum for him to take off on his journey, which I won't tell that entire story, but it basically landed me.
in the beginning of this environment, which by the way I think is really powerful for how we're shaped in a home. It was a custom home at the end of this flag law in this custom housing development that he built. He was a builder. And I was in this room that would look out over the whole valley, looking down over the forest.
that would go down these trails would go down to this river. And I had the whole river and forest to myself as a child. Like, you know, it's, you know, like, I think I was from eight years old to I think 14, I had access to this river and I built a, I built a dock, you know, he was inspiring me about how to build stuff and I was building tree forts. And so I saved all my money earning
picking strawberries and I bought a boat. And that boat was down on this dock above this waterfall that I would go down to. And I would go down there before school and I would fish, I would catch these beautiful big trout and I would watch the geese coming up over the morning fog and all the muskrats and nutrients and beavers and raccoons and the whole wildlife scene was a big part of my life. And so I was like,
JOS WOODSMITH (03:38.946)
doing this early in the morning before going to school. And I'd come back home with these fresh trout. My mom would cook the trout and I would begin my day. And that was a big influence for me as a starting point to be connected to nature. And it's maybe not as grand as the Canadian landscape, but for me, as a kid, that was big.
Dave Moss (04:01.742)
I don't know. There's something about the Pacific Northwest that tugs at my heartstrings, so I get it.
JOS WOODSMITH (04:09.563)
So yeah, that's where it began. And then my mom and dad were always encouraging. My parents, one thing, I suppose to say one thing about them is they always woke up in the morning, they read to each other. My dad would have a stack of books. My mom would have a stack of books. And I remember coming out to breakfast.
and they were always reading parts of the books to each other. And that's how they started their day. And I was like, you know, if I reflect back on that, I'm just like, that is really powerful. Right? Like, right. Like, because they're on the same page, you know, like, and they're teaching each other and they're also taking turns in sharing and listening, which created this, this dynamic between them. And I always wondered why they had such an emotional presence.
And I think that was the seed. That was the mustard seed that was right there and I was witnessing it. And I watched that happen for years. And so I eventually started diving into the conversations with them. I remember sometimes talking to my dad for over eight hours. And, you know, of course I was studying communication when I was in college, when I got to that level of being able to have that conversation. But...
Yeah, every once in a while I'd go, wow, we just had an eight hour conversation. That's crazy. Or maybe it isn't, but I thought maybe. But then I soon realized that when he passed in 2004, at the age of 77, not too old, that I treasured those conversations very deeply. And so every person I speak with, I kind of carry that dialogue that they shared with me.
And I think every person has something to learn from. And so I think, I try, I don't think some people who know me would think that I would, I strive for listening to be my super power. So.
Dave Moss (06:17.76)
I would say you've nailed that super power. You are probably...
A friend of mine, I was spending some time with him out on Big Island in Hawaii. We were sitting in this hot pool and he said something that stuck with me. And it definitely strikes me as something that it'll make sense in a second, but he said that conversations are ideas, where ideas come to have sex. And I feel like every time I have conversations with you, it is like that, it's just like deep, intimate, passionate, sometimes messy.
JOS WOODSMITH (06:44.91)
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah
Dave Moss (06:54.343)
uh, experience. Uh, I have learned so much about the art of dialogue and the art of conversation by just having conversations, uh, with you because you just, you listen so intently and then you have this really, really great, you know, gem to take, take the conversation on. Whereas I feel like some people, when you speak with them, they're just waiting for their turn.
They're not present with you while you're speaking. They're already formulating what they're gonna say in the next place. Do you feel like that, was that the type of conversations that you had with your father? Did you learn that in those dialogues?
JOS WOODSMITH (07:18.722)
Hmm
JOS WOODSMITH (07:24.238)
Hmm
JOS WOODSMITH (07:32.983)
Oh, yeah.
JOS WOODSMITH (07:37.602)
I feel like my dad would tell me sometimes he was, I think he had a special tuning fork, you know, and he would vibrate with certain people or thoughts, probably thoughts more than just people, right? And he would tell, he told me once that he would be, he could be in a room full of people and then he could look over and that same person would be looking right at him because he felt them. And I'm like, whoa, that's, that's
That's cool. Like, but I guess, I don't know why I'm saying that, but I guess what I'm trying to say is that he distilled a sense of sensitivity in me.
JOS WOODSMITH (08:21.818)
And particularly because of some of the events that happened in his life, early in his life and at the end of his life. But I had a lot of other influences too, above and beyond him. He was a definite starting point of that. But I had an amazing grandfather and grandmother. And I just came back from a whole family gathering where there's 100 of our family gathered for a family picnic.
And so I saw a hundred of my relatives just last week. But my grandfather, just to say one thing about that guy, I recently learned that he hoed 20 acres by hand in the middle of the depression and he planted potatoes. And he hoed the whole, he hoed and planted the whole thing, 20 acres.
Dave Moss (09:18.716)
That's a lot.
JOS WOODSMITH (09:18.838)
I was just like, God, wow. Anyway, hard work and respect and, you know, you listen twice and you speak once, right? Or maybe listen four times and you speak once, right? But yeah, I mean, there's a whole other story about listening that I could share with you that I think I've shared with you once before.
Dave Moss (09:32.416)
Mmm.
Dave Moss (09:43.662)
Please do. Yeah.
JOS WOODSMITH (09:48.934)
I just finished, I'm kind of all over the map here, by the way, but I just, I just, I just had finished, you know, my whole study of rhetorical tradition at the University of Oregon, and I had this opportunity to witness about five professors that were at the end of their career, right? So these, like we were going into classes where it was the last class they were teaching.
Dave Moss (09:52.094)
No, no, that's the point of this, just room.
JOS WOODSMITH (10:16.69)
And it was just like, you just like, there's this term in rhetoric called exigency. And it was this exigency of wanting to listen and change and grow forward with what is being said. And there was an urgency because that's the last moment that they're teaching. And you're like, wow, I gotta write this down. It's like, if I don't, you know, this is a piece of gold they're sharing with us. But anyway, this whole thing is, is that this one professor invited me over to Holland.
And he was, at the time, considered the number one theater arts professor in the U.S. His name was Grant McKernie. And I'll never forget it because I, you know, as a 23 year old I went over to Europe and he invited me into these villages. One was called Leiden and it was outside of Amsterdam. He would ride me on bikes and he would tour me all through Amsterdam and tell me the whole history and the meaning behind everything. I'm just like following this guy. Like...
as he's stopping and reciting poems and quoting literature and the history to me. Anyway, the point I'm telling you this is because he guided me and he introduced me to all these people. And he shared with me this concept called Chazalekh. And Chazalekh is a Dutch term, I think some of my friends who know me have shared this before, but.
I want to define it the way he defined it to me, to you. And maybe I've shared this with you before, but... Oh, right, okay, so that was interesting. They brought that up. I was like, wow, they brought that up. So the way it was taught to me was when you are interacting with another person...
Dave Moss (11:44.842)
No, I'm only aware of the term from Ted Lasso.
Dave Moss (11:51.501)
Yeah.
JOS WOODSMITH (12:03.286)
You enter a space of authentic listening, which means that you're 100% focused on being wide open-minded and curious about pulling the other person out of them. And that is the whole goal. To pull them out of them.
And in the in the efficacy of gazelle when I was taught it the other person does the same thing back to you So their 100 goal is to pull you out of view And when this thing happens between two people who are genuinely You have to be in love with kind of the person and what you get to that level of curiosity you suddenly be had this dense form of presence that shows up and so
this, like you were saying, I'm not like sitting here thinking about what I'm going to say next, because I'm so involved and committed and curious about who you are and what you're saying, not only that, but feeling and trying to visualizing the whole thing. And there's this timelessness that happens in that process, and it's beautiful magic. It's so gorgeous. It's like the best dialogue can last a lifetime, right? Like good dialogues last a lifetime.
Dave Moss (13:18.023)
Mm-hmm.
JOS WOODSMITH (13:19.314)
And so I was following Grant McCurney around in Leiden, and he was introducing all these people, and he would step back and he would say, that's happening right there. You see that? You know, and I'm like, whoa, I'm watching this. And so I have carried around this term with me in my head, thinking of chazalekh when I speak and look at people.
And I'm not perfect at it by all means. I get caught up in the whole fast-paced, multitasking thing, of course. But when I focus and I have people who I care about or who are curious with me, I just engage in that. And it feels really beautiful and timeless. And I think what I'm saying here also is that I believe that a third identity shows up between two people when you have a good dialogue.
There's this unknown flow that happens out of nowhere that is kind of like the stream of consciousness that's coming in between you and I when we do this together. And it's beyond, it's almost like it's our muses that are kind of talking through us, I think. Does that make sense? Like, I mean, it's just like a...
Dave Moss (14:29.327)
Yeah, absolutely. I was just drinking that all in.
JOS WOODSMITH (14:34.53)
I don't know. You know, not you don't always have the time. I mean, you can't always do it. But you know, when you could pull it off, it's really powerful. And, you know, like, I don't know, I've always kept journals in my life. So like, I have conversations from people that I've had with, you know, all throughout when I like this is a journal that I've had that I look at how beat up this journal is right.
Dave Moss (14:59.854)
amazing.
JOS WOODSMITH (15:00.21)
It's like this journal that I've carried around. I basically have been like writing down thoughts and quotes about, like distilled thoughts and quotes about what people have shared with me. And I always date it, and I always say who it was and where we were. So it kind of like takes me back in time and brings me back into that conversation. Like here's like with Francis Bacon, readeth, make a man broad, speak a man ready and writing an exact.
Like, I thought that was really cool. Like, anyway, so I just got these endless things in these journals. Here's this one journal I carried all the way through Europe for six months. And I've got drawings in here. I've got like, I put in like, you know, this is in Prague, Czechoslovakia. You know, I started, my camera broke when I was in, I was in Turkey. And so I started drawing.
Right, so this is like this Turkish man in this, in this bus stop between Greece and Turkey that I was sketching him because he pulled me off of the heater of where I was sitting to keep warm because it was the middle of winter in Turkey. And he's feeding me Turkish delight and he's telling me all these things and I'm writing about what he told me. And you know, he's smoking here. He's just like this, he's this, and he was a police officer. Like, but anyway, like.
Yeah, I think journals are incredibly important. Really, really powerful tool to have.
Dave Moss (16:31.642)
How often do you go back and flip through them?
JOS WOODSMITH (16:35.118)
Um, honestly, I'd probably like to do it more than I have, but I have looked through them many times, yeah. And sometimes, it just kind of pulls my brain back into fullness, it kind of keeps me a little bit more whole, because sometimes I get so caught up in like, oh, well, just, I'm Joss who I am in these last two weeks, that's all I am, you know? It's so easy to get so hyper-focused and not step back and feel and see the big picture of the wholeness of.
Dave Moss (16:57.717)
here.
JOS WOODSMITH (17:05.102)
we are. So I don't know, I brought these journals along to refer a conversation to reference because yeah.
Dave Moss (17:13.334)
Yeah, I love it. You had talked about your journals before, but I had never seen them. And I certainly had never seen your sketches of Turkish policemen before, but that's, it's just a modern day Renaissance man. You've got all of these journals and sketches and photos and everything else. I think that's amazing.
JOS WOODSMITH (17:26.3)
Oh, God. Yeah, that was. Oh, there was one. OK, let me say this one thing. OK, so we're on this bus and it was 18 hours of a bus ride going to Turkey. And then we're going to Gourmet in the center of Turkey. This place called Gourmet. It has it's a place where these two volcanoes had erupted back in second century. And these volcanoes had put all the ash on the ground.
Dave Moss (17:35.597)
Yeah.
JOS WOODSMITH (17:51.778)
and they had formed what's called these fairy chimney castles. And so as you look into the valley of Gourmet, I don't know if you've seen this or been there, but it looks like giant asparagus everywhere, like, but they have a rock on top. And so they're like, oftentimes they're like three or four stories tall, these pieces, these big rock configurations, just literally thousands of them. But anyway, the reason I'm telling you this is because
Dave Moss (18:06.638)
Hmm.
JOS WOODSMITH (18:21.494)
My hair is stuck against the window because I'd been waiting for them to change the chains on the bus. We were stuck in the snow. And the bus driver's out there changing the chains on the tires. And my hair froze against the window because I was waiting there. And I remember like pulling my hair off the window because it was frozen, right? And this woman to my left, she's...
Dave Moss (18:33.825)
Mm-hmm.
JOS WOODSMITH (18:50.582)
this Muslim woman, she comes up to me, you know, and she has, you can see like three children behind her, and she kind of unveils this thing that she's holding, and she unveils this piece of bread, and water, and an egg, and she looks at me, and she gave it right to me, and I like, I will never forget that moment because it was such.
Like, here she has children and she's giving a stranger food. I was like, wow, that was extremely powerful, like wow.
Anyway, that was... I brought Turkey into the situation, so...
Dave Moss (19:33.45)
Yeah, no, I mean, you've been on so many wild journeys. I feel like every time we talk, it's like, how many lives have you lived in one life? So many places and so many different things. What brought you into communication in college?
JOS WOODSMITH (19:43.651)
Yeah.
JOS WOODSMITH (19:49.428)
I am.
JOS WOODSMITH (19:53.262)
That's a good question. You know, I think I'm dyslexic. And I think that can be a good thing too. But I didn't know, or maybe, you know, how they talk about ADHD or ADD in today's world, but I didn't know any of that back then when I was a younger kid. And I think I had a learning
JOS WOODSMITH (20:25.898)
I struggled all the way. I barely got into college. I was more into sports. I was a gymnast. I was a downhill ski racer. I was a soccer player and I was also on the golf team. I was like really, really deep into sports. And so when I barely got into college, I got on probation because I was partying and it freaked me out.
Right? Like my other friend was also partying and there was a moment where I had to decide like, oh my god, I cannot get kicked out of college. And so I did this huge about face, right? And I started going to parties and I would like fill up my beer with water and I'd be chugging beer with guys and they'd be drinking water all day. The other parties, I just made a comedy out of the whole thing. They didn't know, they never knew. But the reason I'm bringing this up is because I ran into some friends at the University of Oregon.
kind of like the dead poet society. And all of them were studying this topic called rhetoric. And I fell into that because communication is how I learn. If I can speak it, I can think it, and I can act. And those three things alone are huge, right? So the clearer you speak, the clearer you write, the better you think.
the better decisions you make, the better actions you have in your life, which develops your character and your destiny, right? So I ran into those, these, I started, I was kind of bored out of my mind in some of the other college classes until I ran into these classes that were just so engaging and freaked me out because they were inviting us to stand up in front of everybody and talk. Not only talk, but say something compelling in an argumentative, persuasive way with humanity.
with sound reason supported with evidence and examples. And it was so powerful to do that. So I just became, I fell in love with it. And I would go to the office hours with my professors. And one professor I had, he had his office hours at 4 a.m. in the morning.
JOS WOODSMITH (22:39.542)
I remember him saying, he's like, so anybody interested in my office hours, they are at four and he paused. AM. University was like, whoa. So of course I get up in the morning and I rock all the way across campus to go meet with this guy who's been teaching for 42 years in his office in the honors college up in this highest little perch spot in this old, old building at the university where you're in having these conversations in the morning.
where I can see behind him, he's got pictures of Michelangelo's paintings with God touching at him. And it says something like, you will fail to notice what one is not prepared to see. You know, like, whoa, you fail to notice what you're not prepared to see. And I'm like, oh wow, what does that mean? And so then the conversation would go on and on about all that kind of stuff. But I fell in love with.
the art of communication because it was my way of that vehicle of learning and my vehicle, my way of connecting with other people. And, and that's how I actually evolved into actually after college, becoming a communication consultant for nine years. And that's where I met another mentor of mine. Um, his name was Randy Harrington. He was the debate coach at the university of Oregon. And he branched away from the university and started a consulting firm and I joined him.
So I was a communication consultant for nine years, teaching, doing teamwork training and technology with him, traveling around the US all over the place. That was before I became a photographer.
So that was kind of a roundabout answer to your question of how I started communication.
Dave Moss (24:21.074)
No, I mean, that's a great answer. I feel like so many, we were briefly talking about this before we started recording about, you know, one of the reasons behind me doing this podcast is like I never grew up knowing what I wanted to be when I grew up, you know? Like I was not a kid that had a career path ahead of me.
And when it came time for me to go to post-secondary, I didn't know what I was going to do. I wanted to go to art school. My dad wanted me to be an engineer. And I'm like, I'll just go into engineering, whatever he says. That makes more money. Also ended up a photographer for a while. But it's like this concept of, I think more people than not don't have clear paths in front of them. We sort of like let the winds guide us. And so I kind of had a hunch that.
that communication was something that you had a passion for, but maybe, and you could tell me where I'm wrong here, but like you didn't have a clear outcome of what that was. Like, did you go into communication thinking I'm gonna go into, you know, this sort of like corporate training position afterwards, or did you just get into it because of the love of communication, the love of speaking?
JOS WOODSMITH (25:35.114)
100%. I had no clue as to what I was going to do. All I knew is that I really was enamored with this to the point where I would actually, you know, in high school, when I was in college, I was, you know, I felt like first of all, I had a learning disability. So I, I might, I upped my level of discipline. I remember checking out, buying all the books the year before heading into some of the other more intense classes and I'm reading all the books over the summertime so that I knew I could then at least start.
a little bit ahead of the game going into that education. But I did not have a path in mind at all. I remember my grandpa going, what are you gonna do with rhetoric? And that was a huge discussion in some of our classes. I remember the debate coach of the University of Oregon, he was walking into the audience with his hands like this. He goes, so when you go home over Christmas time,
and your parents ask you, what does rhetoric mean and why are you studying it and what are you gonna do with your life with this? Let's just talk about this. And so yeah, I mean, of course he went into all these definitions of rhetoric, which I can still define and recite right now if I wanted, but I just felt, I just followed my passion, you know? And...
And then I knew that, you know, I ended up training all this software when I was right out of college. So I like the Microsoft Office suite was just being launched to the world then nobody knew what a motherboard was. Nobody I would I would totally tear apart a computer and show them all the components and totally demystify what a computer was to people. And because all these people in corporate America just freaked out about like how to use software and all these skills and everything. And
And I knew how to teach or I knew how to articulate things. So it just mattered to me learning it. And then I was like in front of all these people teaching and then I was growing as a person. So I was like more enamored by the fact that I was growing and learning by teaching. And I was paid okay, yeah.
Dave Moss (27:44.734)
Where did the technology knowledge come from? Were you already a tech geek or did that come with the job?
JOS WOODSMITH (27:51.538)
I came with the job. Yeah. I had a Magnavox video writer when I was in college. The orange and black screen, right? So I could type pretty good. I was good on a word pro.
Dave Moss (28:00.124)
Mm-hmm.
JOS WOODSMITH (28:08.058)
Yeah, I was good with typing and crafting things, but nothing like with Excel or teaching people databases and PowerPoint and all that stuff. But I mastered the whole Microsoft Office Suite. I could still recite all the keystrokes in any of those programs, because I taught it. But yeah, so learning, and it was all new then, right? It was just like a firehose of information coming at us. So I...
Dave Moss (28:36.384)
Mm-hmm.
JOS WOODSMITH (28:36.902)
I would stay up until like sometimes one and then one of the nights studying all this stuff so I could teach the next level, the next day to this group of people from something that I had just learned that night. So that was like a boot camp for me.
Dave Moss (28:52.935)
How did that conversation with your grandfather go when he asked you, what are you gonna do with rhetoric? Cause I feel like that is a quintessential, at some point in time, no matter what you study in school, somebody in your life or in your family is gonna be like, yeah, but what are you gonna do with that? So how did you respond?
JOS WOODSMITH (29:13.278)
Well, I responded by saying, I wanna be able to critically think, and I wanted to be able to express myself in powerful ways. And if I can do that, I can do anything. So,
You know, it's not just a matter of absorbing information, but it's how you assimilate the information, how you organize the information, how you dissect the information and then distill it into meaningful conclusions or actions that it was a vehicle for my life, right? So, I mean, Aristotle, no, yeah, Aristotle defines rhetoric as the faculty of discovering all the available means of persuasion in any given instance. Like,
Oh, okay. Or Cicero says, you know, it's linking eloquence with wisdom. Or, you know, there's just so many definitions of it, but a lot of people misuse the term rhetoric in today's turn, like in vernacular. They like say, oh, well, it just so-and-so's rhetoric. But really, like they didn't study the whole rhetorical tradition and they don't know what they're really, they don't know what they're referring to. It's just a negative term out in today's vernacular. But to me, it's extremely powerful.
And if you look back into the classics of like Cicero, Plato, Quintilian, Socrates, all those famous retours of back then, they were all about dialogue. They were about what's called dialectic, the discovery of truth together with the use of rhetoric between two people who come to the table with love and who are speaking honestly, who see all sides of the argument.
and he'll continue to speak and admit ignorance. And when you have those four things, you have a very powerful dialogue. That's the root of dialectic. When people follow that, they're entering into more of a loving debate about sifting out the truth to build each other up, as opposed to like this war.
Dave Moss (31:14.758)
Hmm.
JOS WOODSMITH (31:17.994)
of who's better because of your ego. Nobody knows everything. The fact that I'm looking this way means I'm not looking that way. Same with you, right? So let's learn together and talk about this together to grow and become better together.
Dave Moss (31:25.175)
Yeah.
Dave Moss (31:31.23)
Yeah, I love being the dumbest guy in the room. It's always my favorite thing when I can talk to people who are experts. Like my only knowledge on rhetoric comes from Robert Persig's book, Is That in the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance? Cause that's what he was a professor of in the book, like the main character was a rhetoric professor. And I remember reading that book and just being like, I have no idea.
JOS WOODSMITH (31:46.76)
Oh yeah.
JOS WOODSMITH (31:50.786)
Totally.
Dave Moss (31:59.234)
And I'm so excited that I have no idea. And this concept of discovering the truth together, before reading that book and before coming upon that sort of concept of rhetoric, to me debate was always about winning, right? It was always about like my truth is greater than your truth as opposed to, kind of like what you were saying about when you have good dialogue, there's this third entity that...
JOS WOODSMITH (32:17.781)
Right.
Dave Moss (32:27.746)
that joins the conversation. I feel like with debate or with rhetoric, it's the same thing. It's like, there is no, this person is right and this person is wrong. It's like coming to this new understanding. And I feel like a lot of people could do well with like that type of conceptual understanding of conversation and of dialogue. And it's not about winning, it's about everybody coming out richer.
JOS WOODSMITH (32:29.384)
Uh-huh.
JOS WOODSMITH (32:56.786)
Exactly. We can all win together. I remember, I think in Bali, I think Tree and I had done a presentation where we were talking about that in every conversation there's six conversations. Right? There's you, then there's me, then there's my perception of you, then there's your perception of me, and then there's my perception of your perception of me, and then there's my perception of your perception of you.
Dave Moss (33:01.17)
Yeah. And I feel like that's been lost a lot.
JOS WOODSMITH (33:27.91)
makes your head spin, right? But the shadows of communication, right, are always around us. And I think it takes a discerning, thoughtful, sensitive presence to be able to have that form of connection between us.
And I don't claim to have, I'm not like an info guy where I collect tons of facts in my head. I'm a little bit more conceptual and more philosophical. So often times I end up actually asking tons of questions and then trying to unpack information out of people. Occasionally I write them down in my journal so that I can then quote them back to other people.
Dave Moss (34:09.31)
Yeah, if you, you know, were sat in front of a, you know, you kind of have an audience here, hopefully. What would you say to somebody who wants to improve their skills of rhetoric, improve their skills of dialogue and communication and step into that sort of
dance, that beautiful creation that dialogue can be. Are there some tips or tricks or things that people can sort of like hold as they move forward with that?
JOS WOODSMITH (34:43.874)
Oh, there's so much. It's like, oh, God, it's just, I mean, I studied all the classics, you know, like, I studied. There's this book called The Traditions of Rhetoric, and I had to memorize all of the arms of rhetoric as it broke down, you know, from logic of argument, logos, pathos, and arrows, and I did like
completely be able to recite this whole page 69 in front of 100 students at the time, if ever I was called upon to do it. And, you know, maybe it sounds a little like completely tedious and everything, but it really helped me understand the difference between logic and passion, for example. Like a lot of people are super emotional about something.
pathos and as opposed to logos, which is the logical, you know, reasoning of A, B and C, you know, deducting conclusions from evidence, right? So I guess if you're asking me if I if I if I would recommend like a student going into college with what they would, how they would pursue this or anybody.
Dave Moss (35:57.066)
No, just like Joe off the street. Like if you were sitting across from somebody in a coffee shop and they said, Joss, I'm terrible at communication. I'm terrible at dialogue. I don't mean to buzzfeed your entire college education, but like is there like a top five with sort of things that people can keep in mind or practices that they can do to lead to better communication, lead to the concept of coming to a collective truth or anything like that.
JOS WOODSMITH (36:14.058)
Right.
JOS WOODSMITH (36:29.278)
Yeah, I would be, I would, um, I would encourage them to just like, you know, just get ahold of any book of communication they can and just start absorbing that and practicing it themselves. I think the art of practicing is like, is, is where all the learning happens. Right. So for example, um, I had that one professor I was talking about who I would go visit at four AM in the morning. He was saying,
in listening, you start off with a temporary abdication of power. And I thought that was an interesting way to say it. And maybe it even sounds like it might sound overly scholarly. But if you think about that for a second, the temporary abdication of power, in other words, a temporary surrender of your own power to completely open up yourself to take in what is being said to you without any filter. And that's the first thing, right?
And then the second thing would be to respond with an immediacy. That timing of communication is extremely powerful. The timing of a response back. And then the third thing would be what's called not feedback, but feed forward. How can I add to what you just said to me? And so that we're building upon the information that we're talking about learning together. That's like the rock of communication right there, like a dialogue.
Right, so that was like a small example of one of the things that I often carry around with me in my head. It's like I've got to remind myself, okay, am I doing a temporary abdication of power right now? Like, so that I can absorb, because in today's world, it's so easy to just like gloss over and just multitask and just skip over everything.
And so nuggets like that, like if you can learn some of the principles of communication, the principles of debate, just like right there, that phrase right there, the principles of debate, right? Can teach you so much. Here's another one, like the Socratic method.
JOS WOODSMITH (38:39.294)
So you would always start off by defining the terms. Like, okay, if we're talking about some issue, like, well, let's define this issue or let's define this topic. And we have an agreement around the definition of that term. Okay, so then the second thing would be to find examples that test the definition of what we agreed upon to see if that definition really holds its truth.
Dave Moss (38:48.782)
Hmm.
JOS WOODSMITH (39:04.894)
And then if it turns to be true, then we would, or if it kind of disproves our definition, then the third thing we would do is redefine the definition of what we're talking about. So like that right there is kind of like this principle of debate.
that you would follow to kind of work through issues or tension between people. Let's just start off like, hey, you know, you have a dispute with your spouse. Like, let's define why we're upset. You go, and I'll listen, right? Okay, so let me say that, let me say back why you're upset. So then I would repeat back to my spouse why you're upset. So did I hear that right?
Okay, so, and then if I didn't, she would tell me a more refined definition of maybe why she was upset, right? So, starting off with definition alone, it was called definire, which was one of the canons of rhetoric, is a great place to start, right? So, like, if I just shared, if I shared that example maybe with somebody, it might spark an interest in the principles of communication and how that might fit into their own lives.
Dave Moss (39:58.503)
Mm-hmm.
Dave Moss (40:17.79)
Yeah, yeah. This is fascinating and it ties into so much. I have a lot of conversations with people about conversation, because in my coaching business, working with creative business owners, they have problems with clients and things like that. And something that I often say is like, the myth of communication is assuming that it's happened, because you haven't set those terms. You haven't set.
JOS WOODSMITH (40:18.674)
Anyway, I could talk for endless. Listen about these.
Dave Moss (40:46.53)
What are we actually talking about? And I was speaking with a friend a couple of days ago, and they said, you know, I have this other friend who's got this problem and they're sort of dumping to me and I don't know what to do about it. And I said to them, well, define the conversation first. And I'm like, what do you mean? Said, well, ask them, do you want me to be your best friend right now and just listen to you unload this? Do you just need a listening ear? Or do you want my advice?
because if you just make an assumption one way or the other, you might not be giving them what they want. And so define the terms of the conversation and you will have better conversation. And that's something that I've done for years. You know, I'll go out for beer with a friend and they'll be like, oh, I have this problem with my business or I have this problem here. And I'm like, okay, do you want coach hat or do you want friend hat? Like, what are you looking for right now? Because I don't wanna just assume, you know, you want me to solve your problem or you want me to work through this with you
I had done that in the past and that doesn't go well. They're like, well, I'm not actually asking for your advice. It's like, oh, yeah, sorry. Okay. And so it's like these little tricks about being relational. And you mentioned this with your spouse and Abby and I are constantly working on our relationship and this is something that both our relationship therapist and also this course that we had taken on being relational and your relationship is all about that mirroring back. You said, you know,
JOS WOODSMITH (41:52.77)
Right.
Dave Moss (42:15.498)
what I'm hearing from you is this, is that right? The power in that is huge. Because if it is right, then they're like, yes, and now I feel heard. And it sort of like diffuses a little bit of that anger. And if it's no, okay, this is the definition, we're gonna redefine it. And then it just allows that moving forward. And I think that some people are afraid of maybe creating the structure. They're like, oh,
I don't want to create the structure then we're not having communication and I'm like actually you'll be communicating better
JOS WOODSMITH (42:47.946)
Right, I don't want to follow this equation. It feels too contrived or forced or, yeah, surgical. Right?
Dave Moss (42:54.189)
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah. Like one of the things that Abby and I do, we do this thing called dyads. And I can't remember where she found this, but it's an active listening exercise. And it has been one of the greatest things for my brain. I do have ADHD and I get distracted a lot. But when we do this, the whole concept is, you know, you ask, I'll ask Abby, hey, how are you feeling? And then I can't say anything else until she's done. And she just...
says however she's feeling, and then she asks me that question. And then I say, and then I ask her the same question back, and we just go back and forth with that same question going deeper and deeper and deeper and deeper until there's nothing left. And then we move on to whatever comes next. But it's like, this isn't a place where I'm here to solve your problems. Or this isn't a place where, you know, if you're upset with me, I don't get to be defensive or anything else in this situation. This is just a space where you can un-
burden yourself in this structure. And without that structure, like we used to try to do this back in the day without this dyad structure, and it would just turn into a fight. Somebody would say, oh, I'm feeling this way. And you're like, whoa, why are you feeling that way? But in the structure of these dyads, it's just like by the time you're done, the problem's not a problem anymore because you've defined the terms of the communication.
JOS WOODSMITH (44:06.765)
Right.
JOS WOODSMITH (44:22.51)
It's interesting you're saying that because it reminded me of this other coach I had. His name was Randy. He was one of the mentors I had. He was, he's the kind of guy that could learn about the whole Microsoft culture and then go there within a week and then stand up and lead them and then make them all laugh and cry at the same time. Anyway, he taught me this thing called the spiral of reciprocating perspectives.
And it's when I start making up what's going on with you and you start making up what's going on with me, and we go in this downward spiral. And when that starts to happen, we need to stop and do exactly what you said. We need to unpack it until these assumptions kind of dissolve, right? And I think most importantly is to have a sense of humor about it, right? If all of this could just have a mindset and I'm equally as guilty as anybody else.
Dave Moss (45:11.41)
Yeah, I mean, it just, it.
Dave Moss (45:15.571)
Ugh, you have to.
JOS WOODSMITH (45:21.058)
to have the mindset of comedy. Comedy is so powerful and life is full of chaos and stress and tragic, devastating things all the time. Not that you won't take those things seriously, but some of the minor hiccups and tensions I think would be better off approached with comedy.
Why shouldn't we? Like, I'm a blind man. We're all blind people running around this world, right? We're blind to death trying to communicate our way through out of these storms.
Dave Moss (45:43.431)
Yeah. Yeah, being able to laugh about something.
Dave Moss (45:55.49)
Oh, yeah, I feel like the moment I realized I was an adult was the moment that I realized that no other adults have any idea what they're doing. And we're all just kind of making it up as we go along. And I was just like, Oh, okay, now, now I understand the world. Now. And it's like, you have to laugh at it at that point in time. It's just like, you know, we're all just figuring it out. No one has any idea. We're all making it up and no one can know everything. And, you know,
perspective is everything. My perspective is so different than yours. And so it's like, once I realized that, I'm like, oh, this is hilarious. Like now it's like, don't, you know, there's that old phrase, like don't take life too seriously. Nobody gets out alive kind of thing, you know? And so it's just like, yeah, you have to, the comedy aspect is really important.
JOS WOODSMITH (46:41.358)
It is. Yeah, yeah. I mean, even with your own dialogue, your own soliloquy, right? It should be a comedy. My mom, my mom's interesting. I just spent two months with my mom here. She visited for two months and she's starting to share space with my sister who lives in Chicago. She lives with her and then she comes and visit. She's been visiting us spending these bigger chunks of time. Because we realized that when she was alone in her apartment, we weren't these little visits weren't really
in death. But yeah, so I've had these long conversations with her recently. And she was just reminding me of so much about just humility and comedy and the way she approaches things like that. The thing I wanted to share with you is that she told me just yesterday, she goes, yeah, I'll be in my study and I'll just be laughing to myself. And I'm like,
Wow, that's really cool. Like you're laughing with yourself in your own dialogue. I think that's a sign of probably good mental health, right? If you're constantly amusing, it's just yourself, right? Because I'd oftentimes ask her, like, how are you doing during COVID? And like, you're alone, you live alone, you know? Like, how is that? And she goes, oh, I'm amusing myself all the time. I'm laughing at myself all the time. Like, I'm chuckling out loud.
Dave Moss (47:48.011)
Yeah.
JOS WOODSMITH (48:05.706)
And I'm like, wow, I want to be like that. Right?
Dave Moss (48:08.33)
Yeah, yeah, I feel like that's like, that's the goal, right? When you're when your inner dialogue, when your self talk is, is light and jovial, you know, on that point, what is what is your self talk like you're such a good communicator, how do you communicate with yourself? What does that look like for you?
JOS WOODSMITH (48:19.723)
Right.
JOS WOODSMITH (48:30.126)
Oh, it goes phases for sure. I think it used to be a lot better than it is now, actually, to tell you the truth. I used to travel a lot on my own, and I would be journaling and adventuring all the time, and I would go to Europe every year. I've probably been to Europe over maybe 25, 28 times, I think.
But I used to go over there for like a couple months and just wander, you know, and I would develop this dialogue with myself. You know, here I am in foreign countries and trying my best to learn some of the language. So journaling was a huge part of that dialogue, right? And that would help clarify so much in me through that journaling process. And sometimes I like to just...
I like to like take in quotes and I memorize quotes and then I use them as kind of a building block of thoughts that I sometimes meditate on. Sometimes I like to memorize a whole passage and it becomes like this whispering friend in my head that I can reference to every once in a while. Once again, I think I had this learning disability when I was younger and so I kind of took on this passion of memorizing larger pieces. All my friends in college, they would be...
they could read a textbook and learn all this stuff and then just perfectly regurgitated or answer all the perfect questions in these multiple-quaste advanced questions and exams that they were taking in. I would always struggle with that. So I was like, damn it. Well, if they can do that, I'm gonna do this. And so I would memorize large sections that I thought were super critical things to know.
and then I wouldn't know the rest. So I have big gaps of knowledge. I have big blind spots, but at least I have these chunks that are really, for my dad's tuning fork that he gave me, it's like, okay, I got that tuning fork, that's super important information, and I'm gonna totally lodge this into my permanent long-term memory. So for example, I fell in love with this poet named David White. He lives up in Canada. I know, I'm sorry, not in Canada, in Seattle, but he's Welsh.
JOS WOODSMITH (50:49.33)
is this wonderful Welsh voice. So I started studying and memorizing some of his poems because he had this passion to take these poems, really super select poems, and take them and recite them back to audiences and then unpack the meaning behind all these poems with repetition and unpack the meaning of them, super powerful. So I just kind of fell in love with that. So I did a little bit of that myself.
So I've got these poems and quotes all lingering around my head. And so I have dialogues with those, if that makes sense. I don't know if that's weird, but it works for me. And I don't know, would you like to hear one? I think I did one, actually. I think I did one when I was at, I did one when I was at, I was like, I did one at the training when you came, when we had the evolve class.
Dave Moss (51:36.106)
Absolutely. You did, you did. This is actually a skill of yours that I always thought was impressive. Just the ability to recite poetry.
Dave Moss (51:46.335)
Yeah.
JOS WOODSMITH (51:48.514)
So this one is called.
JOS WOODSMITH (51:54.371)
Uh.
JOS WOODSMITH (51:57.846)
This one is about grief. It's called grief. It's gonna make it kinda heavier. So, those who will not slip beneath a still surface on the well of grief, turning down to the place that we cannot breathe, will never know the source from which we drink its secret waters cold and clear, nor find in the darkness glimmering the small round coins.
thrown by those who wished for something else.
Dave Moss (52:36.302)
What does that mean to you? Yeah, yeah.
JOS WOODSMITH (52:36.386)
So let me just say that real quick again. Those who will not slip beneath the still surface on the well of grief turning down to the place that we cannot breathe will never know the source from which we drink its secret waters, cold and clear, nor find in the darkness glimmering the small round coins thrown by those who wished for something else. If for me, that poem,
It talks about faith. It talks about hope. It talks about what you've been so gracious in sharing with me and the life coach of finding the gold through the darkness, through the grief, through the surface, through the dark, you know, going diving deep into the murky waters and the cold waters where the...
the small round coins glimmering by that were thrown by somebody else. Like that gold is waiting for people. And having a poem like that in my head just gives me strength, you know? And so I'll have a dialogue with myself sometimes about that, like, so I lodged it in my head because, you know, sometimes I have the doubt or I fear or I run up against obstacles and I just like, I gotta step away and just kind of
remind myself of what I know are the people that I've been lucky to experience and allow those voices to speak to me, which gives me strength. And it's all about community, right? And being able to pull from whoever it is. Maybe it's Rilke. I fell in love with Rilke too, but you know, sometimes I'll visualize going back to Bali and all the conversations that all of us had there.
Lanny sitting there, beginning the whole reunion by that one long passage that he shared with everybody. So beautiful, powerful. How lucky are we, right? So I guess some of the dialogues I have with myself, when I take the time, pull from some sources that I've lodged in there, I guess, yeah.
Dave Moss (54:54.202)
Yeah. I want to. Yeah, I mean, but we have grief about so many things, right? We were talking earlier about before we started recording about how I had this grief around my projects in my life, I wouldn't start new things. If I couldn't already see the outcome of them. Doing it for the sake of doing it wasn't enough. You know, you had mentioned Liz Gilbert and Big Magic and the concept of like just
JOS WOODSMITH (54:58.745)
So, that was grief, right? I was talking about grief. Ha ha ha.
Dave Moss (55:22.262)
the purpose of it is the purpose of it. It doesn't have to be bigger than that. And I had grief over that for years. And the release of that, when I decided to finally start this project was huge. It's not the grief of a loved one passing or something like that, but it was the grief of this thing that I never thought I was going to be able to have. It hadn't even existed and I was already grieving it. And so releasing that I think is...
JOS WOODSMITH (55:49.559)
Hmm.
Dave Moss (55:51.766)
we, everybody experiences this, like, you know, we talk about, you know, microaggressions and microemotions, like, I feel like we have microgrief and stuff like that all the time. Of FOMO is grief, you know, the fear of missing out, grieving that you don't get to go and have an experience. You know, you talk about missing solo travel, that is a grief in and of itself.
JOS WOODSMITH (56:04.696)
Right.
JOS WOODSMITH (56:15.442)
And then somebody introduced me the grief of, the opposite of that, not the fear of missing out, but the fear of actually being involved. Because sometimes that can be very, very torturous in and of itself too, like overstimulation, too much socializing, too many people, too much energy, and like, you know, to be able to come back to yourself and have alone time, you know.
Maybe the fear of missing out on your own alone time too, right? Right? I think Abby would have a lot to say about that.
Dave Moss (56:41.217)
Hmm.
Dave Moss (56:45.745)
Yeah.
Dave Moss (56:49.202)
Yeah, Abby has the joy of missing out. Where she, yeah. Yeah, yeah. She has, she's very particular about what she does and what she wants. Although lately she wants to drink from a fire hose. She wants more socialization, more connection and she's really working on building a community and having that because over COVID and everything, she lost touch with all of that.
JOS WOODSMITH (56:52.906)
That's what I'm okay that I think that's what I was trying to say the joy of missing out.
JOS WOODSMITH (57:05.95)
Hmm.
JOS WOODSMITH (57:15.678)
It takes work. It's like, you know, it's like, it's like, you know, you got to eat every day, you got to work out every day, you got to commit, you got to like, nurture your community every day, because it's always shape shifting right in front of you. It's just, yeah, you're doing it, you're doing it right here with just the always you're committing, you're committing to 1000 interviews, is that right? Or 100? Okay, I was like, wow, 1000 like
Dave Moss (57:24.278)
Yeah. So I'm doing it. Yeah, this is my community. 100. I feel like 100 is, yeah. I mean, that's a little over two years. You know, if I do release one a week, it's two years of conversation. And I feel like, my feeling is, is once I have that momentum, I'm not gonna wanna stop, you know. But I didn't want it to be a small number.
JOS WOODSMITH (57:44.335)
Okay.
Dave Moss (57:53.51)
And I was a quintessential researcher. And so reading about podcasts, you know, it's some huge number. The numbers are gonna be slightly incorrect, but I think it's something like 90% or 95% or something of podcasts don't make it past three episodes. And then 90% of those that do don't make it past 20 episodes. And so it became this challenge for myself to be, well, I'm gonna do at least 100.
If I can do 100, then I will feel like if I have 100 interesting conversations with people, if nothing else comes from it than that, I will be richer for it. And so that was my intention behind doing this. I mean, it's a big step. Yeah, but yeah. Yeah, small, simple steps. My, one of my mentors.
JOS WOODSMITH (58:37.526)
Tiny steps, right? Yeah, but yeah, but yeah, but one step at a time.
Dave Moss (58:49.59)
She talked about turtle steps, you know, this concept of like, if you have a goal and it feels too big, you have to break it down into smaller and smaller and smaller steps. And she shares this anecdote about, you know, she knew she had to go to the gym and start working out because she was getting older, but going to the gym just felt, it felt too big. So for the first week, all she did was drive to the gym and sit in her car for an hour and then drive home.
The second week she would put on her workout clothes and sit in the car for an hour. Third week she would go and sit in the gym. And then it was finally four weeks in when she actually picked one machine and started exercising. But that's what it took for her to build that momentum and make those choices in order to do these types of things. And so like for me, I'm like, okay, it doesn't have to be anything but conversations. It was very easy for me to just set up a Calendly.
and just start reaching out to people and make these conversations. And so I wanna challenge you because you said something earlier, I'm gonna coach you here for a second, Joss. Guess sometimes I can't turn it off. You had mentioned that in the past when you traveled, you would journal and you would work out your inner dialogue and you would work out your thoughts in that way. And I think travel makes us richer selves because it strips away the distraction.
JOS WOODSMITH (59:53.986)
Please, absolutely.
Dave Moss (01:00:13.394)
Like when we're traveling, we don't have to worry about, did I leave the heat on or are my bills paid? Or it's like, I have to feed myself and I have to experience, that's about it. So I would love for you to bring that journaling practice back into your life on a day-to-day basis and start having that dialogue with yourself again, because I mean...
JOS WOODSMITH (01:00:34.071)
Hmm
JOS WOODSMITH (01:00:37.453)
Mmm.
Dave Moss (01:00:38.134)
You showed me these journals that are on your desk from your travels. And I mean, this is obviously like a rich part of your journey here on this planet. And I think the world will be richer for it if you do that.
JOS WOODSMITH (01:00:57.09)
I accept that challenge. I've, you know, the thing is, is that here's my newest journal, but it's, you know, it's just small pieces, right? So...
Dave Moss (01:00:58.282)
Hehehehe
JOS WOODSMITH (01:01:11.266)
but it's not full entries. I'm just writing down quotes or things. But at least there's something, right? There's something there. But I think having one of the books that I love reading over Coda was The Miracle Morning. And getting up in the morning and practicing those six habits.
to start your day, even if it was only a minute for each one of them, within six minutes and practicing six extremely powerful things.
Dave Moss (01:01:45.942)
What are the six things?
JOS WOODSMITH (01:01:48.374)
Well, there's an acronym for it. It's called SAVERS. So the first S is sitting in silence, just listening, right? Temporary abdication of power, right? Then A was stating your affirmations. And not just saying, they have to be measurable affirmations.
I would like to, you know...
JOS WOODSMITH (01:02:24.75)
Today I'm going to post my workshop that will be launched by, you know, December for a winter wedding workshop on the top of Mount Hood at Silcox Hut. And I will do that for, you know, for the next 10 weeks. Something specific, right? So affirmation, so silence, then affirmation, then V was visualization.
Dave Moss (01:02:45.609)
Mm-hmm.
JOS WOODSMITH (01:02:52.738)
to actually visualize those affirmations coming to life in you. So really seeing it, right? So that's kind of going back to my days of pre-visualizing the golf shot where I would get up and I would swing the club, visualize the ball going on to the, right next to the pin and visualizing that whole thing and then coming up and actually that visualization would come into reality. So that visualization is super powerful.
Dave Moss (01:02:57.45)
Hmm.
JOS WOODSMITH (01:03:21.17)
E was for exercise. So he would, even if it was only a minute, right? Just do jumping jacks for a whole minute. Get your body moving, right? So that was really powerful. And then R was for reading. So yeah, reading something. Maybe, I don't know, for me, I like to read at least maybe 15 minutes, something, right? And then the last S was called scribe, which is what you're hitting at.
And they used the word scribe instead of writing because it fit into the acronyms of script to journal. So those six things, I said six of them, right? So silence, affirmations, visualization, exercise, reading, and writing. And if you could spend, like imagine you could spend.
Dave Moss (01:03:58.007)
Yeah.
JOS WOODSMITH (01:04:18.026)
you know, let's say 15 minutes on each of those, or maybe the exercise part is a half an hour. Man, you got a miracle morning just launching in front of you to start your day and like getting up at five o'clock in the morning, spending like an hour, totally your time to develop yourself, you know, working on yourself to become the best version of yourself. That was what that book really was about, that practice. And so I...
Dave Moss (01:04:39.467)
Yeah.
JOS WOODSMITH (01:04:46.81)
I was weak in the writing aspect, so thank you for encouraging me that. I think I'll take that on. Keep me accountable for that. As a friend and a coach.
Dave Moss (01:04:54.974)
Yeah. Yeah, I will. I will. As a friend, yes. Yeah, no, I mean, this is something that I've been looking at and working on with myself, you know, for so long, I was so bad, like I'd wake up in the morning, just grab my phone right away. And then it was gone, you know, and so now I keep my phone on the other side of the room, and I wake up and like, I want to want to live before I consume.
you know, and maybe not necessarily create before I consume, you know, maybe if I do journal or morning, do morning pages or something like that, but just separating myself from that immediate consumption of, of the feed, you know, whatever it is. And, and, uh, I've noticed a direct correlation on, on how my self talk has gotten better and, you know, just like everything has improved. Just this one little thing. I eat better.
JOS WOODSMITH (01:05:21.261)
Mm-mm.
Dave Moss (01:05:48.042)
I'm sleeping better, I feel better, I think better, just by separating, just having that time in the morning that is just to be, you know, whatever I choose to do with that. And maybe I'll add practices. You'll never get me in a cold plunge, but you know, maybe I'll add other practices or things like that in the morning to do that. And not, you know, not with any intention of...
hustle or grind or anything else like that, but just with that intention of improvement and for whatever outcome, you know? Cause you know, anybody who's spent any more than eight minutes with me knows that I'm anti hustle culture. I'm not going to be the one here saying, you're going to rise and grind, you know? But like rise and be and connect with yourself. Yeah.
JOS WOODSMITH (01:06:18.562)
Oh, yeah, yeah.
JOS WOODSMITH (01:06:33.494)
Right? Rise and be. I remember when I was with Erica Mann in Bali when we were going around the circle when we were all getting to know each other and they would have all these questions that they were answering and we were all shifting in different kind of ratcheting turns remembering more about each other. When it came to her, I'm like, oh, Erica.
And I think I remember telling her something like, something that somebody else, another mentor taught me. And I said, I think we have it all backwards. We think we have to do, then we can have, and then we can finally be. As opposed to being first, then you have everything you need, and then you just do. And I think that's a good approach to remind myself, like, especially like just even like taking a breath, you know, and just.
Dave Moss (01:07:13.358)
Hmm.
Dave Moss (01:07:20.511)
Yeah.
JOS WOODSMITH (01:07:30.198)
you know, centering ourselves throughout the day as a great practice, you know, being. It's like, who knows when, you know, your last day will be also, right? So, yeah.
Dave Moss (01:07:41.342)
Yeah. Well, and speaking of doing and creating before you consume and all the rest of that, I'm curious how, because I don't actually know this, how you and Tree, your wife, for those of you who don't know Joss, who are listening, his wife Tree, how did you two end up, you know, shifting from corporate America and becoming photographers and wedding photographers and international destination wedding photographers and all of that? What was that?
Journey like, did you grow up with a camera in your hand? Did you have other photographers in your family? Or was this just another thing that you kind of fell into?
JOS WOODSMITH (01:08:20.682)
Well, there was an uncle that I had. His name was Uncle Harold, and he, his wife was a writer, she was a journalist. And this is back in the 1930s. Yeah, he was an older uncle, of course. A grandpa uncle of sorts.
They had a dynamic duo there that was super powerful. You know, they would be traveling, they would be flown over to Europe to go interview certain people and he would be photographing them and she'd be writing the whole thing about the whole thing. And I was like, that was really inspiring to see. And I remember my Aunt Lily, who at the time she was in her 90s, you know, and she would reach underneath the table to me when I was like 10, you know, or maybe, no, probably like seven or eight.
And she would hold my hand and look at me right in the eyes and she goes, you know that you're my favorite. And I'm like, oh wow, really? Like me? Why me? You know, like, and then she would go, you have to remember who you are. You have to remember who you came from. You are a Madsen. That's what she would tell me. And I'm like, okay.
And what she was referring to is that these teachers, her grandparents were teachers in Denmark. And, oh, I lost you there. Are you still there? Okay, yeah, your visual went away. But so I guess what I'm saying, I guess what I'm saying is that she like kind of inspired me at a young age to go after stories. And...
Dave Moss (01:09:48.81)
No, I'm still here. Yeah. Oh, I probably got too still.
JOS WOODSMITH (01:10:03.474)
They were a great example. And the reason I'm bringing them up is because I just recently saw these old black and white photos of them together. And it just kind of confirmed them again. But, and I also have my Uncle Harold's camera that I got when I was 12. And I remember the story that she had gotten the front page of the New York Times, one of her articles. And she didn't tell her husband, Uncle Harold, that.
that they got the front page and he had taken this picture that was also on the front page. And so she brought it to breakfast the morning and put it right down in front of him and smiled, looked right at him. So then the front page of the New York Times, her story in his photo, that was pretty powerful. But anyway, I'm going way back. But the way Tree and I...
You know, I was a consultant out of college with this other team. And so I brought all of my communication skills from being a consultant into the realm of photography. And I had been traveling and I fell in love with the romance of Europe. And so I was a super romantic at the time. I'm still romantic but I'm a little bit more of a realist now. But.
I could take those skills, those communication skills, and bring it into wedding photography, or just portrait photography, for example, or whatever type of photography, because I love people, I love people. And so Tree, when I met Tree, I had just kind of, I was at the tail end of my consulting career, and I had just, I had been a wedding photographer for four years before I met Tree. And I had another business partner at the time.
He and I didn't have the same values, and so we went different directions. But it was, right at the moment where I met Tree, was the moment that I was, that he was exiting my life, and Tree was entering it. And so when Tree and I fell in love, and we started to build a relationship, we went to Argentina for our fifth date, for seven weeks, to learn how to tango dance. To learn how to tango dance. That was our mission.
Dave Moss (01:12:07.808)
That's a hell of a fifth date.
JOS WOODSMITH (01:12:14.078)
Actually, it was a seventh date for five weeks, sorry. But still, we were in Buenos Aires, Argentina for five weeks with the whole intention, 100% focus was to learn how to tango dance. In that process, I ended up sharing the new 5D Mark II with her and then I was teaching her how to shoot and everything because I was building my new website with all this stuff. But that's how she came into being a photographer.
And I knew that she was really good because she had those people skills. She loved people. Like it was never an exaggeration to see like 100 people show up at a party for a birthday. Like that was just, I was like, okay. So she didn't have any of the technical skills, but so I taught her all the technical skills can always be learned, but the people skills. Yeah, people skills. So.
Dave Moss (01:13:04.654)
That's the least important part of photography I find. Yeah.
JOS WOODSMITH (01:13:11.254)
That was in 2008. And that's where she and I became this dynamic duo. She was, of course, assisting me, but then I was eventually putting a camera in her hand, and then we became two shooters. And then we started incorporating other assistants to have more of a team approach to shooting these weddings together. And then, of course, we built our commercial brand, too, Wood and Smith, which is our two last names combined, mine's Smith and hers, Wood.
And so our wedding photography brand, Joss and Tree, is all about weddings, and then the commercial brand is Wood and Smith. So we've got a commercial brand and a wedding photography brand that complement each other really nicely. Was that your question? Yeah.
Dave Moss (01:13:57.37)
Yeah, yeah. Well, and I feel like one of the things that you two excel at is, I mean, obviously your photography is phenomenal, but your ability to engage and create relationship with your clients, I think is...
Unmatched. I don't think that there's anybody out there who creates the level of relationship with their clients that the two of you do Was that intentional right from the beginning? or was that something that evolved over the over the growth of Of your studio
JOS WOODSMITH (01:14:34.007)
Um,
JOS WOODSMITH (01:14:39.131)
I think I just, at the beginning I always ended up falling in love with all my couples. And I got this super emotional connection with them all the time, because how can you not? And I think I was lucky to run into the right couples. And then that would, you know, like begets like, right? So the laws of attraction is to start attracting more people that were kind of similar.
uh, in that reciprocal way. And maybe, I think it showed in the photography because we always try to drive the photography from the experience. We had to, we tell the couple is that we're, we're more interested in their entire experiencing and supporting and creating a space for your true selves to show up and have the most, the best time of your life and have the most epic experience and that will just reflect in the photography. So right there, there's, we're setting the expectation for that intention.
Dave Moss (01:15:35.723)
Mm.
JOS WOODSMITH (01:15:36.746)
And I think it wasn't as strong as it is today because today we're doing more multi-day weddings where we go on an adventure with people and we're fully committed to like a three or four day adventure with them. And so in that process, we get to know all their friends and family and we're so intimately connected with them being their photographers or shadowing every moment.
How can you not get involved in all the emotions with that? That's a big reward to us. You can also be careful with that too because you have to protect your own energy to a degree because you can get lost and kind of fall out of a business mindset too. You can lose a lot of time if you're not careful with that. I always push it over the edge.
JOS WOODSMITH (01:16:32.758)
you know, just crying and hugging all of our clients all the way to the end, and even when we're delivering their albums. Like yesterday, I spent two hours with this couple that I dropped an album off, and I just, you know, reflected about their whole wedding and where they are at in life, and the whole meaning of their relationship for two hours in their backyard yesterday. I'm like, I come home and Tree's like, where have you been? I'm like...
I couldn't help it. I'm like, you would have been there right with me. It's like good that we're dividing and conquering a little bit, right? We got to...
Dave Moss (01:16:57.945)
Hahaha
Dave Moss (01:17:03.366)
Yeah. Yeah, I mean, if you're if you're essentially like embedding with these families for multiple days, like, do you find like, are these relationships that carry on?
JOS WOODSMITH (01:17:18.334)
Well, you know, yes and no. It's hard to manage that many relationships over time. It just gets to be too many and you spread yourself too thin. So...
JOS WOODSMITH (01:17:33.138)
I try to like, I'm not a guy, I'm not a one liner email guy kind of guy, you know, like, but maybe I'll sit down and write, you know, a really good long thoughtful paragraph at least every couple of months to a few people, you know, I can't do that with everybody. And not everybody's obviously the same.
Dave Moss (01:17:38.815)
Yeah.
JOS WOODSMITH (01:17:54.226)
But I've had like particularly that some of our French clients, you know French culture is super interesting because when I write to them they will write back a whole Chapter of their life to me. It's just like wow And it's so you know first like wow, I can't read this whole text But then you start reading it you're like, oh my god, like there's just it just You know this firehose of culture just being poured into your veins, you know, it's just beautiful
So at some point we kind of have to be selective about the type of people that reciprocate back to us. Cause that can be, you can put yourself in a straight jacket of unrealistic expectations, right? But you know, yeah, so go ahead. Oh, just.
Dave Moss (01:18:35.826)
Yeah. You mentioned. Nope. Go ahead.
JOS WOODSMITH (01:18:44.754)
I just got this video message from a couple that we photographed in last year in a mafia and they were, they sent a whole like two minute video message of to us just literally crying about how happy they were about the experience that they had with us and how thankful they were and I was just like, you know, we're crying all over again. This is a year later, right? And it's so
Dave Moss (01:19:11.083)
Yeah.
JOS WOODSMITH (01:19:13.738)
You know, it can be really time consuming. You're like, you gotta be careful about your time like that. But at the same time, it just gives you an extra energy that you didn't know where, that came out of nowhere, right? So it's feeding your battery, your heart, your soul with something that you can't put a price tag on.
Dave Moss (01:19:31.53)
Yeah, and I mean, you had mentioned earlier, sometimes it's hard to separate the business from that piece, but I mean, the point of a business is profit, right? But the profit doesn't necessarily, this is my own opinion, I'm sure somebody out there who's an investment banker will cringe at me saying this, but the profit doesn't have to just be money. We were talking about just being earlier, and it's like receiving a message like that from a client a year after their wedding, like that's gotta be...
JOS WOODSMITH (01:19:54.882)
Yeah.
Dave Moss (01:20:00.878)
just so fulfilling and so rich to receive. And I feel like there's a lot of creatives out there where it's just a transaction and they never get to experience that level of gratitude from the work that they've created. Does that fuel you and tree in some way into wanting to maintain this style of wedding photography?
JOS WOODSMITH (01:20:22.335)
Yeah, I mean, well...
JOS WOODSMITH (01:20:27.35)
Well, you know, that's why we narrow it down. We're shooting like 10, 12, maybe 15 weddings a year. And, you know, it's, we, we have to charge more for all of that. And they understand that investment because they, and interesting at the, on the front end of the whole sales process that we lead them to, I kind of like.
Dave Moss (01:20:34.594)
Mm-hmm.
JOS WOODSMITH (01:20:49.986)
drop in a few truths to them like, hey, when we shoot your wedding, it's gonna probably be a commitment on our end anywhere from 100 to 120 hours of work. And if they do the math on that, and then they see the number we're charging, they can, like, the analytical person quickly understands the investment of what they're committing to, right? And...
So that's worked pretty well for us. It's kept our lifestyle also up super high. Don't get me wrong, it definitely comes with risk, right? Cause those types of clients don't come along every single day. They're very, very unique. And the thing is, with the balance of having commercial work where you can go in and just like, boom.
you know, super linear, super cut and dry, which is awesome. So if you can fill in the gaps with that type of commercial work, but at the same time preserve these really special clients that walk into our lives, that's a great balance. So take that in your hat, banker, right? Investment banker.
Dave Moss (01:22:07.054)
Exactly. Yeah. I mean, do you feel like, do you feel like you're
Dave Moss (01:22:15.87)
has the choices that you've made in your life up to this point in time.
Did it ever feel like you were just...
collecting things and hoping the outcome would work or Was it just a joy to have the journey I asked this selfishly as someone who I'm a collector I love different things I love reading lots of different things like earlier when you were talking about your parents reading books to each other like My brain immediately wants to know what type of books did they read just because I'm just curious of cuz like that rich connection That your parents had
But like you learned the rhetoric and the communication. You've had all of these amazing mentors and grown and had this experience and now have the photography business, both commercial and wedding, as well as your education that you guys teach other photographers. When you look at where you are now, does it feel like the culmination?
of everything that led up to this point? Or does it just feel like this is just a chapter and the next chapter is yet to be written?
JOS WOODSMITH (01:23:30.166)
I think it is a culmination for sure. Like for example, you know, if you look back on how many times I traveled Europe alone, I know I had a Canon AE-1 film camera. I also had a Mamiya 7, you know, with film with a six by nine negative, right? And I was coming back to Portland and processing all these, this film on my own dime, you know.
going to the lab and processing all the film and talking to all the photographers at the time where we could do that, which culminated, right, into this understanding the creative process and also all the technical aspects and just the rewards of all that. But at some point, I was like, I had all these albums from all this traveling that I'd done kind of breaking even along the way. Like coming back to save money.
going off on these adventures, printing all these images and making these albums and writings and then doing it all over again. And it was just like, what am I doing? Am I just like writing this really sensitive wave that is gonna crash on me eventually and I'm gonna just tumble onto the coral and die? You know, like, but it...
I was so filled with energy from that, that I just kept doing it, even though I knew the risk of it. So even today, I still am on these edges that I come and go through. It's just life, right? It's the risk of running, being an entrepreneur, you know, the economy, the climate of the culture is always changing and...
But today, I guess to answer your question, I feel at this point in my career after doing this for almost 19 years, or 19 years now, when we run up against questions of like, oh my God, what's our business doing? There's this kind of inner peace trust that I trust.
JOS WOODSMITH (01:25:45.742)
the accumulation of all those experiences will bring something good back again. If that makes sense. It's like, I think it was referred to, and going back to the rhetoric terms is called ethos, which is competence, integrity, and goodwill. So having competence, integrity, and goodwill, and on, onima, that was it. Onima is spirit. When you have spirit and passion tearing through you in your voice, in your mind, and you have competence, and you have integrity, and you have goodwill.
that is a force in and of itself right there. I think that's, and that can give you, I think at some point it can give you this momentum that you might not even be aware of, the laws of attraction just come. Maybe I should be quoted against me if something happens to me in the next year or two, but that's, you know, right now, like this year for example is a little bit, is lower bookings for us.
And I'm like, hmm, when did that happen? I started questioning, like, OK, well, we were in Europe last year, and so all of our marketing went to Europe last year, and it didn't go locally. Hmm. Maybe that kind of messed with something with SEO or whatever, or word of mouth, or maybe people think we're too untouchable because we were over in Europe. But still, deep inside of me, from all the experience that I've had, I'm like, hmm.
experiences leading up to this point, I feel trust. I trust myself that something, even though I continue to take risks or maybe look into the face of doubt, something will come because I'm following my heart, following my bliss. Trusting in that goodness. If you put good out to the world, I think it will come back. Garbage in, garbage out, right? Or good out, good back, or however that phrase goes.
Dave Moss (01:27:40.909)
Yeah. Okay, complete tangent, but I'd be remiss to not bring this up because the concept of it in my life came from you.
JOS WOODSMITH (01:27:43.626)
Yes.
Dave Moss (01:27:51.15)
Fasting, Prolon, five day fasts, that sort of like that whole world. Where did that enter your life and why?
JOS WOODSMITH (01:27:55.054)
Oh, yeah.
JOS WOODSMITH (01:28:05.054)
Yeah, right. Well, I, you know, as a photographer, it's very, very taxing on our bodies and our minds. You know, if you're shooting like 16, 17 or more hour days and you've shot over, you know, we shot 30,000 photos in Italy last year at a wedding.
And you wake up with cramps in the middle of the night at 3am and you're walking a cramp off and you're like asking yourself, Whoa, what did I just do? Right. Um, um, but, but going back to your question, uh, the practice of yoga is, is the answer to what you're, you're asking me.
And I had learned to practice yoga. I'd been practicing Ashtanga yoga, which was like a three hour practice of yoga. Here in Portland, there was a community that I was connected with for about five years and there was this yoga studio called Yoga Pada, which Pada means foot, right? So everything rooted from the foot. And this teacher that was in there had studied with all these.
these yogi masters around the world and then brought back all of his teachings into Portland and started a whole community. And he was a master chef also from San Francisco. He was a very interesting guy, very, very articulate. So such a good practice, a practicer of yoga himself. But he had two assistants in the room while teaching. And so these assistants would come around.
and they would adjust us while he's teaching us. And it was like crazy powerful. Like, you know, we're practicing over like five in the morning till like eight in the morning. And you'd walk out of there just beaming, you know, you'd just feel like, wow, I just felt so light. I felt so strong and I felt so flexible and I could breathe and I could, my mind was clear and I could work myself through intensities with grace, gravity and grace. And...
JOS WOODSMITH (01:30:08.466)
So to answer your question about fasting, fasting became kind of like a yoga practice to me.
Because when else do we give our organs a break, right? Like if we're constantly feeding our organs all the time, that's super taxing. And if we want to look at the long haul, why not just cleanse ourselves of all the toxins through fasting? Tests are also mined in our character through actually being able to endure the fasting process.
JOS WOODSMITH (01:30:44.426)
And then of course I had a great friend by the name of Jeff Grimm who is a nurse practitioner who specializes in anti-aging medicine. And he has a clinic here in Portland called BioLounge PDX where he invites people in to hack their bio. And he's the leading spokesperson for Prolon therapy that was written by, it was the best fasting mimicking diet in the world written by this guy named Oulong, Dr. Oulong.
and um Longo, Oolong. Okay, I'm thinking of I'm thinking of I'm thinking of tea, Oolong tea. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, um, but Jeff is like this walking encyclopedia. It's kind of like you. He has that kind of mind. He's like a scientist. He's like a super nerdy geeky scientist with a lot of humor and compassion and he's promoting um people to
Dave Moss (01:31:14.578)
Longo. Yeah, Dr. Valter Longo. Yeah.
JOS WOODSMITH (01:31:39.31)
do intermittent fast, not only intermittent fasting, but this fasting mimicking diet that's a five day fast that you've done. And he suggests we do it three times a year. So that's, I mean, he just really reinforced that whole thing. So it was a combination of yoga and then being around my friend Jeff with the fasting mimicking diet that I feel like is kind of a sort of a fountain of youth to me.
for being able to deal with the stress of life and being a photographer particularly, it's been very helpful to slow down.
Dave Moss (01:32:15.722)
Yeah, I mean, there's not a lot of photographers, wedding photographers who make it past, you know, their early 40s in the game because it is just really, really hard on your body. And so if you don't, you know, if it's not like you and Tree with yoga and fasts or Lanny and Erica and, you know, running marathons all the time, like I feel like the body just can't keep up.
JOS WOODSMITH (01:32:35.902)
No, yeah, especially shooting at that level of intensity, right? Where you're just shooting like documentary wedding photography is so, so demanding, so demanding. It's crazy. Like you're sweating so much that the sweat is going through your eyes and your eyes are stinging as you're shooting through these crazy moments and you're trying to breathe because you just ran around this whole thing and dove on the ground. You know what I mean? Right?
Dave Moss (01:32:40.49)
Yeah.
Dave Moss (01:32:46.25)
Yeah.
Dave Moss (01:33:01.326)
So do you feel a direct benefit like after doing the five day, the fast memicking diet? Like does your body feel better? Cause when I did it, I've only done it the one time and admittedly was not at the peak of my health. I was in probably the worst shape of my life, which was one of the reasons why I decided to do it. And I just felt like it took me weeks to recover from it. Like I was just, yeah. But for you guys, three times a year, like what does it feel like after?
JOS WOODSMITH (01:33:19.054)
Mmm.
JOS WOODSMITH (01:33:26.478)
Oh wow.
Dave Moss (01:33:31.328)
after you do it.
JOS WOODSMITH (01:33:33.726)
I feel I feel a little bit weary in the middle of the process for sure. There's a kind of a you hit a kind of a wall Wait, but then you go through that wall and at the tail end of it for me Anyway, you kind of hit this point where it actually you have energy on the fifth day and then it kind of lasts after that according to Jeff we're stimulating our Or stimulating the what are they called the
the telemeters in our DNA, I guess, and those kind of determine your youth or your length of life. It's more than just losing weight because it targets body fat. The fasting mimicking diet, which is really interesting because it doesn't, you're eating just enough where it doesn't eat your muscle, but it targets body fat.
Dave Moss (01:34:20.897)
Yeah.
Dave Moss (01:34:30.142)
Yeah. Yeah, what is it? Itovashi or autophagy, I can't remember how it's pronounced, but yeah, it's like, it cleans the system up. It gets rid of all of that, the bad fats and things like that. It's really fascinating.
JOS WOODSMITH (01:34:31.734)
but it also cleans up all your organs and
JOS WOODSMITH (01:34:43.154)
Yeah, yeah, your body just freaks out and goes, okay, I'm gonna clean this up over here, clean this up over here. It's just cleaning house, right? So, you know, that on top of eating clean is what we like to do. I wanna live as long as I can. I love life, I'm in love with life, right? So.
Dave Moss (01:34:49.921)
Yeah.
Dave Moss (01:35:02.63)
Yeah, well, it's not just a mutual friend of ours, Andrew Funderberg, he talks about it too. It's like, it's not just about living as long as possible, but it's having the best quality of life while you're living as long as possible. And yeah, like there's so much there's so much about it coming out now with Dr. Longo and you know, Dr. Pedia, Peter Attia talks about it a lot and got a podcast around it now and everything like this concept of longevity is
JOS WOODSMITH (01:35:13.894)
Exactly. Totally.
Dave Moss (01:35:32.27)
It's quite fascinating to me. It's exhausting reading it all, which I feel like I need to step back from just like absorbing the knowledge and just get into the practice of it. Yeah.
JOS WOODSMITH (01:35:43.622)
Exactly. Yeah, yeah, just dive, just trusted it. I mean, there's so many scientists surrounding it, so many great, good, you know, people with tremendous ethos encouraging this. And yeah, I mean, I've had resistance with it, of course, like I've woken up in the middle of the night, kind of like feeling like a little bit of a panic attack, like it's my...
You know, my energy, my body's just kind of readjusting. I can feel all my organs and everything just kind of like recalibrating themselves. And when I first did it, I was kind of like, whoa, I felt kind of like high in the middle of when I was trying to sleep. But it's proven itself. Like, you know, every time I do it, I kind of shave off this like maybe eight pounds.
And at the end of that, I feel super light. I'm like, wow, I feel really clean. I just reset my whole system. And now I can kind of take myself to the next level. So Tree does a lot of intermittent fasting. I think Maitlani does a lot of that too, right? He's intermittent.
Dave Moss (01:36:34.775)
Mm-hmm.
Dave Moss (01:36:42.634)
Yeah, yeah, lots of people do. I did it for a while, and then my therapist was like, stop it. But yeah, no, all of that stuff is super fascinating, and I think there's a lot of different methodologies that work for different people. Okay, so we've talked parents and grandparents, we've talked communication, rhetoric, photography, travel, poetry.
JOS WOODSMITH (01:37:05.435)
Yeah right.
Dave Moss (01:37:11.486)
Is there any part of you that I haven't touched on that you feel is missing that is like a really big piece of your journey and that has brought you to where you are today?
JOS WOODSMITH (01:37:30.66)
You know, um...
JOS WOODSMITH (01:37:39.588)
I think it's really important to be your own mentor.
You know? And I also think it's important to always seek out mentors throughout your whole journey. I think, you know, it could be a really good friend. It could be a professor. It could be, you know, who knows? It could be, you know, the woman on the bus in Turkey who just gave me, you know, water and bread and...
and an egg in a matter of five seconds. And I'm still telling that story today 20 years later, right? But, you know, like, yeah, like being your own mentor, like, which takes on, I think, being your own, your own accountability partner.
Dave Moss (01:38:16.363)
Mentor in kindness and generosity.
JOS WOODSMITH (01:38:31.538)
I had a great, I have a really, my best friend all the time, his name is Danny, he's an acupuncturist, and he in the middle of, he and I in the middle of the, of COVID decided to be accountability partners. And so every two weeks we would get on at 6 30 in the morning and we would have a video call and we would talk about what's going on and keep each other accountable.
And not only, because we were realizing, because he lives in Southern Oregon now with his wife and I don't see him as much. And I mentioned to him, I'm like, oh, I really feel like we're not connected anymore a little bit and we're kind of starting to become distant. And he's like, hey, let's just be accountability partners. And I thought that was extremely, it's been extremely powerful to have somebody to where you can really be vulnerable and totally transparent with.
and you can ask them to keep you accountable. And you've done that for me too. You know, being a business coach has been incredibly profound. And I think that's a golden nugget. That's kind of like, you know, rooting from the same thing my parents are doing, reading to each other. There's something powerful about that. And I think with that, what I wanted to, my original thought to that question that you answered was having a sense of humility.
That, I think, is a huge mindset. And not coming from a sense of lack of confidence or lack of powerlessness, but to surrender to being open and learning and never assuming anything. It's like, it kind of goes back to the four agreements, right, where you're being impeccable with your word, you're...
You're never making any assumptions. You're always doing your best. And you're, what was the fourth one there? But you know what I'm saying? Like the four agreements, that was a super powerful book. But that comes with humility. And I think, you know, through all the experiences I've had, maybe I've developed all these skills and I have somewhat some ethos in my life. It comes back to though, remaining humble.
Dave Moss (01:40:30.172)
Yeah.
JOS WOODSMITH (01:40:52.542)
and displaying humility in front of somebody who is standing before me that I could listen to really closely and learn something from or listen to my own thoughts. So I think humility would be an interesting exploration to talk more about or just have a practice of humility I think is great.
JOS WOODSMITH (01:41:19.042)
But there's many things we can talk about, of course. Ha ha ha. Part two, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Dave Moss (01:41:23.645)
Maybe on a part two someday, I think that would be beautiful. Yeah, yeah. I feel like we could probably do this once a week and still come up with different things.
JOS WOODSMITH (01:41:32.734)
I was humiliated because I was riding a skateboard because Tree was taking on roller skating in the middle of COVID and I started riding a skateboard, longboard. And I almost like crashed and fell on the concrete and I went into this diving roll to get out of this whole, because I hit the curb in the front of the, the skateboard goes behind you and then you're on top of the skateboard, flies behind you and you do this tumble.
Dave Moss (01:42:00.514)
Yeah.
JOS WOODSMITH (01:42:02.062)
I was like, ooh, I can't injure myself. I got too many clients to serve, right? It got me humble. Yeah.
Dave Moss (01:42:10.45)
Yeah, humility is good. Humility is a good thing. Amazing. Well, where can people find you? If they wanna connect with you, if they wanna learn from you and Tree or hire you for a wedding or anything, where's the best place for people to seek you out?
JOS WOODSMITH (01:42:15.383)
Um, but yeah.
JOS WOODSMITH (01:42:26.674)
Yeah. Well, I think it was you and I that you strongly suggested that we brand our name as jossandtree.com. So J-O-S-A-N-D-T-R-E-E.com is where we are. And that translates into Facebook, it translates into Instagram, it translates into everything we have. In addition to our last names, woodandsmith.com.
which is our commercial brand. And so that's where you can find it. You can find our education there underneath Joss and Shree where we do all our workshops. Of course you can see all our portfolio. You can see everything we write, all the suggestions and tips and tricks about everything that we do there. But yeah, that's the main hub of how we can find us. And we always love a good dialogue. So people who write to us and immediately wanna jump on a video call, that's kind of our style.
Dave Moss (01:42:57.262)
Amazing.
JOS WOODSMITH (01:43:24.522)
you know, as opposed to this back and forth of writing all this stuff, all that, you know, which became, feels really kind of like one dimensional flat, you know, people jump out of video call with us, that's the magic right there.
Dave Moss (01:43:32.822)
Yeah.
Dave Moss (01:43:37.494)
Beautiful. Well, thank you so much for hanging out with me today. It's always a pleasure getting to have a conversation with you.
JOS WOODSMITH (01:43:38.582)
Yeah.
JOS WOODSMITH (01:43:44.298)
I think it's a total honor Dave. I'm kind of, I'm not used to talking about myself so much, but it's easy to do it with you and we always have a good talk and I appreciate your, I was describing somebody, I was describing you to somebody recently and I said, you know, it's not every day you run into somebody who's extraordinarily knowledgeable from all the passion, from all the information that you absorb, which I think equates to highly intelligent.
Dave Moss (01:43:49.825)
Hahaha
Dave Moss (01:43:54.644)
Yeah.
JOS WOODSMITH (01:44:13.486)
and somebody who's kind. The combination of intelligence and kindness is a very rare combination, and you have that. That's a gift, and I really appreciate that. Yeah.
Dave Moss (01:44:24.45)
Thank you. Amazing. All right, well, this has been an absolute pleasure and hopefully we can do it again sometime.
JOS WOODSMITH (01:44:33.83)
Absolutely, anytime.