Empower Apps

Peter comes on to discuss how to prepare for WWDC, what to really do that week, and what to focus on during the summer.


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We talked about 

  • (00:00) - Pace Yourself
  • (10:29) - Installing Betas
  • (19:11) - Headset Apps
  • (22:22) - Remote vs Live WWDC

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Creators & Guests

Leo Dion
Swift developer for Apple devices and more; Founder of BrightDigit; husband and father of 6 adorable kids
Moved to https://t.co/cMG5BnWESw

What is Empower Apps?

An exploration of Apple business news and technology. We talk about how businesses can use new technology to empower their business and employees, from Leo Dion, founder of BrightDigit.

Leo Dion (host): Welcome to
another episode, empower Apps.

I'm your host, Leo Dion.

I'm joined once again by
Peter Witham of Compile Swift.

Peter, thank you so much for coming on.

I think this is appearance number four.

Maybe I don't know.

I lost count.

You're one of, you're one of the regulars.

You're one of the regulars
on this program, so I

appreciate you coming back on.

For people who don't know
you, I'll let you do your own.

Peter Witham (guest): Thank you.

Yeah, I think I'm, I now have
more appearances than there are

spinoffs for Game of Thrones.

I'm not sure, but I think
I'm winning that fight.


Leo, thank you.

Thank you for having me back again.

Yeah I'm Peter Witham compiled Swift
is what I'm known as for the most

part in our development communities.

Obviously with a focus on Swift and all.

Development fund and yeah, no it's great
to be back and I think we've got a topic

that is not only informative, but people
should really pay attention to, because

it's something people don't think about
when it gets to the exciting season.

Which is where

Leo Dion (host): we're at.


So we, we do our yearly WWDC recording
and it came to me that for a lot of,

especially newbie devs, what, how
should they approach WWDC because

there is a lot of stuff going on.

And it, it could be overwhelming.

And I feel like I've done this
enough years now that I know the

pattern and know the dos and don'ts.

And I figured.

Yeah, it'd be good to
cover that in an episode.

But a month before WWDC actually
happens, what do you, before begin,

maybe you can say what do you think is
the number one thing developers should

take away when they get ready for Wwtc?

Peter Witham (guest): I think
the number one thing is pace.

Not everything has to be done the day
the conference starts, or even the couple

of days before it starts, regardless
of whether you are watching it remotely

or you are traveling it, you've got
one of the golden tickets or you are

just traveling out to be close to the
event, which fantastic if you are.

But either.

Pace yourself.

Remember it's a week long conference,
but it's really the week that starts

off the next year for all of us.

Doesn't have to be done the first day.


Leo Dion (host): Yeah.

I think that's really good point.

They're all recorded obviously, and Much
better quality, I would say, recorded

than they used to be when they were live.

And they're gonna be around.

The talks are gonna be around for a while.

Take your time with it, pace it.

Depending on what kind of learner
you are, you may want to just open

up excode, which we'll get into a
little bit later and just k at it.

But let, I think it's a really good
point to pace yourself because these

talks are gonna be around for forever.

There's no reason to hurt rush into it.

What do you think, what do you think
are some things that devs should

do to prepare for WWC right now?

Peter Witham (guest): Yeah, so I
can run through what I do and I

think, like you said, like yourself.

This is something that I've
adjusted and figured out a game

plan for me over the years.

A lot of it by trial and error, the
number one is okay, wiping my production

machine and downloading the first beta
for Mac os not the first thing to do.

And so the first thing I do
is I say to myself, okay, i.

I know I'm gonna take notes.

I know I'm gonna watch a bunch of things.

I know I'm gonna forget a lot
of the things that I watch and

that's okay cuz like you say, it's
gonna be there for a long time.

But I also back up.

I use it as like a signpost
to back up all of my machines.

Even though for me, rarely if ever, do
I install whatever we may get on that

from the conference that first day, but
I use it as a good excuse to just, okay,

back everything up, because you had
that it's like that midnight craving.

Maybe I just will try this new thing.

So backing up is number one yeah.

Taking notes and I don't take exhaustive
notes while I'm watching the sessions

so that I can enjoy them because you

Leo Dion (host): know it in,
you want to be able to just

Take in the information first.


And then go back and, play it at Yeah.

Two speed.


And figure out what are the specific APIs
you should be really be looking into.

Peter Witham (guest): Think of
it as, in some ways it's like a.

Think of it as when you are, we used
to, back in my day, we would wander

around the video store right before
we picked what we were gonna watch.

Now we might, scroll through the
endless list on choose your streaming

service, treat it like that.


Make notes for yourself that
says, oh, there's something on.

Topic X and I will go back and watch that.

So come up with a viewing list for sure.

But don't feel that there's that pressure
to, okay, now I need to get into it.

If you are in a position like you and I
are, for example, you're in a Slack group

or a good Slack group or discord or some
community, Share it and have fun with

that community while the event's going on.


There is plenty.

That's a really good point.

Solo time afterwards.


Leo Dion (host): Yeah.

We'll post some links to some of
the WWDC groups out there, WWDC

by notes and there's a ton of 'em.

Apple actually links to a lot of
'em too, but what I was gonna say

you, what you wanna do is like that.

They usually post the schedule
with funny names that aren't like

anything related to the topic.

And then right after, probably State
of the Union or the keynote, they'll

like actually fill in the names.

And I think that's a good
opportunity if you wanna do anything

to prepare, go through your.

Developer app or whatever wwc app you're
using, and clear out all your favorites.

And then when the day comes start,
like going, when the actual topics are

announced, go through and mark like
what you want, be very picky because

there's gonna be a lot and pick what
are the talks you really want to cover?

And for me, it like comes down to what
you're interested in, what your apps, your

current apps could use, or what feature
that you think is gonna be released.

That is gonna be like something
you could really build on top of.

Yeah, and I think those are
the kind of the three things.

And then I would also say one more thing.

There's a lot of especially their
design talks are really good.

And if there's some business talks
too that you can tap into that gives

you a good insight into what Apple
is looking for and what they think is

gonna be a successful app, and yeah.

If anybody's gonna know
it, they're gonna know it.

So those are would be the
four talks I would look into.


Peter Witham (guest):
I agreed and I think.

Almost subconsciously take note of
patterns because if there is some new

APIs and let's pick one for example.

Let's say that there was a lot
of talks on location services.

Just, I'm just picking one.

That's usually a good
sign that says, Okay.

You know what, if you want to maybe stand
a better chance of getting featured in

the store when this stuff comes out,
this might be the thing to do, right?

Because Apple will want to push
whatever their agenda is for this year.

And for example, location services
whatever the new hardware is this

year, they're gonna want to push that.

Now, I'm not saying, if you make a, a.

To do planning app, right?

Don't go throwing in something that's
completely useless in your app.

But if there's a way to tie in what
the trend seems to be that they're

talking about, that might be a good
plan as well, and you're only gonna

Leo Dion (host): know that.

So a good example.

The good example would be
WidgetKit from a couple years ago.


Was a great example of something
that you could throw in.


Last year we had live activities, which is
both a good thing to put in your app, but

also was a great indicator of where the
iPhone 14 was headed with Dynamic Island.

So Those are the things that
you want to look out for.

That I think is a great way to get
yourself featured in the app store and

take advantage of whatever iPhone is
gonna become out in September or October.


Yeah, I think, yeah.

So how can you tell.

How can you tell though the difference
between something that they really

talk about and push and something
that quite frankly is gimmicky?

And what I mean by this is we all know
the feature that Apple will really

talk about a lot in June and then know
everybody forgets it by like December.

Yeah, like the thing that
comes to my mind would be like

message kit like messaging apps.

Like they didn't go anywhere.

What else?

I'm trying to think what else.


There's a few, there's a few of
these things where it's just they

talked about it, and then it,
like it just didn't go anywhere.


Peter Witham (guest): Yeah.

A classic and this is not to pick on
anybody, there are those previous years

when things were live and they would
have third parties come in and do demos.


And yeah, you knew why
you were watching it.

It's this is going nowhere.

What is what is this about?

And that kind of thing.

And I think that you have to
just trust in your gut that says

this doesn't feel like the thing.

Now there are sometimes too,
I think they show things.

Are too early.

And for example, AR and vr great.

That they jumped on it, but I think,
not that it wasn't ready, but it wasn't

ready in the sense of there, there was
nothing really, anyone had anything good

to take advantage of it until recently.


So something like that where it's okay,
bookmark those videos, but put that on

the B playlist, something like that.


Leo Dion (host): Until this year,
like there's yeah, I'm a, I'm

actually like, side note, probably
more skeptical that we're gonna get

anything in June, but we'll see.


I don't know.

I think, yeah, go ahead.

What were you gonna say?

Peter Witham (guest): No, I
was gonna say I got a, we've

got a viewer slash listener.

Third may come into play on that
particular topic when we get there.

So I'm gonna edge my best for
now until I have to commit.

Leo Dion (host): Okay?



Yeah, I think.

Yeah, I think we've, we
covered that pretty well.


let's talk, you talked a
little bit about backups.

How do you go about installing or trying
out new oss and new versions of Xcode

and stuff without breaking your setup?

Peter Witham (guest): Yeah, so
great question because I had a plan

that worked for me for years and.

Didn't not because it, it went
wrong, but because it's just

not really practical anymore.

So I'll dive into how I'm gonna
try and do it this year based

on what didn't work last year.

So normally what I would've
done let's take Mac Os right.

I would install it.

First thing I would do, clone my
internal drive to an external drive.

Make sure I can boot from it.

That's my emergency.

Get me up and running fast system.

Put it somewhere safe.

Don't touch it.

Then I would take another external
drive and try to, you remember

when you used to be real easy to.

An os on an external
drive and booted from it.


Still, one of the things I
loved about Matt and that's

not as easy as it used to be.

So it seems now that the opinion now is
and something that I might try this year.

Is to create, if you have the
space, create another volume on your

internal drive and put it on there.

So that's, yep.

Probably the plan I'm doing
this year for the Mac.

When it comes to my iPhone
I don't install betas.

Period, because I just, remote working
and full-time day job in that I gotta

be contactable 24 7 and I don't have
a spare device here that I could do

that with for that particular purpose.

Ironically, I do have lots of phones here.

I think they got about five right now.

But they all need to work, to test
things cuz they're radically different.

But I don't do anything with
my I guess you would call it

production iPhone, everyday.

iPhone seems weird when we're
talking about these phones to say

I've got my, like everyday carry
phone, my test phone and so on.

But that's in the same

Leo Dion (host): boat.

I have five phones.

I gotta.



So that's, yeah, the partition thing
is pretty much what I've been doing.

To test out Mac Os.

Hopefully there's not a reason for me
to test out Mac OS 14, but we'll see.

But what I'm more worried about, I
think for me is as a watch developer,

there's a lot of rumors that watch West
10 is gonna be big release radical.


And that means I have to install
the beta on my phone and my

watch, which is gonna suck.

Because those first
betas can be really bad.

If you really wanna be safe, wait
until the public beta, if you really

want to be safe, then you put it
on a different iPhone and watch.

But we all know how difficult it
is to put it on a separate watch.

That's not very practical, but yeah.

And also something I think
about is probably putting him

on a different Apple account.

I don't do that, but.

It's probably what you should do,
honestly, because you're updating your

iCloud stuff as well as your software.

So keep that in mind.


Good point.

But yeah, that's that's
the way I would do it.

What are what are some resources that
you've followed every year besides.

Obviously using going through
Apple's website or going

through their developer app

so what are some other resources
that you would recommend following

just off the top of your head?

And if we don't think of it
now live while we're recording,

we'll put 'em in the notes.

So yeah, you can look
in the links in there.

Peter Witham (guest): There's always
gonna be, thank, thankfully internet

people are always good at telling
us, Hey, you didn't mention this one.

Thank you.

Internet people.


A good one.

And of course one, I'm sure
everybody knows, but it's always

so good, so reliable, right?

Paul Hudson's hacking with Swift.

He's usually really good and fast
at getting out there to answer

things like the questions that we as
developers should really care about.

What's the differences?

What's the key things
we need to know about?

And also some extremely good
examples, especially when it comes to

Leo Dion (host): even.

I like, like in the interim time we
get new re we just recently got Swift

five eight and I'm like, I don't know
what that, what's new with been, he has

really good articles with each sublease
of Swift that happens in the interim.

So yeah, I totally agree with Paul stuff.


Yeah, Google agrees with me so I know.

I agree.

I agree that Pulse stuff
is solid, there you go.

Yeah, so

Peter Witham (guest): there's that.

Of course there's a, a slack that you
know, again, if you belong to a good

slack with lots of good folks like the
one that you and I belong to, lot of

good folks in there from many different

Leo Dion (host): vendors.

There's usually a WWDC Slack.

Yeah, there is iOS happy hour.

That's a really good group.

And obviously all the other
iOS developers, slack you,

were there other resources?

Apple has slack too.


So join the Apple slack drink during dub.


They have a slack.

It's, oh, I did not know, okay.

Where you could do q and a.

They have exercises and
events going on okay.

Throughout the week, so
definitely take advantage of that.

That's where you actually get
to talk to Apple developers on

Slack and ask them questions.

It's not like a regular Slack, but
it's like very rigid q and a style.

But I highly recommend
taking advantage of that.

I've been doing the, I've been
taking advantage of one-on-ones

throughout the year, which I love
that they do that now, where you

can do one-on-ones with developers.

Super helpful.

And also take advantage of
off like their office hours.

Get if you have a burning question for
an apple dev now is the time to Oh yeah.

Start coming up with those questions and
get those appointments like they have.

You can ask Apple developers.

They're awesome.

It's basically like using
a DTS ticket almost.

It's, they're really helpful.

They know what they're doing.

Take advantage of that.

And then what's the other,
they have another event going

on, so they have the slack.

Yeah, I think I did that.

The Slack and the Office Hour Q and A.

Both of those are really solid
opportunities to like actually have

one-on-one time with Apple developers.


And the Apple

Peter Witham (guest): developers the ones.

I've dealt with in the past that
they are absolutely fantastic.

They will they'll listen to you
and, obviously be, I guess it goes

without saying, but I'll say it.

Don't go asking them to reveal
secrets not gonna happen.

Leo Dion (host): They might not even know.

They might not even, yeah.

Peter Witham (guest):
They may not even know.

I re I remember it's funny
so slight side story there.

I did a podcast recently with Joel
Kean and that maybe a name, some

folks know May, maybe not, but
he was telling me a story about,

he was at Apple and was working.

The the SDK for the original
iPhone with the iPhone folks

working next door, and they had
no idea what they were working on.

They didn't know what it was for.

Happens on both sides, but it was, yeah,
it was one of those where it's yeah,

they didn't even know what it was, yeah.

It happens.

Leo Dion (host): Yeah.

Yeah, totally.

So that, I gotta put that, I'm
gonna put that on my to-do list.

I need a couple things I wanna ask Apple.


Peter Witham (guest): No.

I was

Leo Dion (host): saying I need to come up
with a, my, my to-do list for coming up

with questions for Apple Apps when done.


Because okay, I need to do that myself
because like I've apps in the works and

it's I have questions, I have really good
questions, and they're super helpful.

If they can't help you,
they'll follow back with you.

They'll email you back.

So take advantage of that and you'll,

Peter Witham (guest):
you are absolutely right.

Just to bring home the point
that you made, which is, this.

The time of year the, not to say you
don't get their attention, the risk

of the year, but this is when they are
laser focused on helping developers

because, they're also looking to craft
the products for the next releases, right?

When we're talking software.


So they need, they need everybody's
feedback and questions as

much as you need help from.

They need it from all of us to know, get
a feel if they're heading in the right

direction and what they should expose.

For example, I don't know this as
a fact, but I would imagine, trying

to decide what APIs become public.

If nobody's interested in one,
they won't focus on it too much.

Things like that.

So we should help them as
much as they help us for sure.

Leo Dion (host): Yep.



What should we, I guess two other
things I wanted to cover and

then you touched on this earlier.


You talked about some stuff
is not gonna be ready.

For the 0.0 release.


So that's something to keep in mind.

Just it's not, and they'll take
it out of the beta probably by

July or August and you'll know.


It's probably gonna end up in 16
or 17 one or whatever 0.1 that

comes out in November, October
with the next set of new hardware.

And what was the other
thing I was gonna say?



I don't.

What else did we not cover?

Do you want to answer
some of your questions?

Peter Witham (guest): I was gonna say
I got a, I I threw caution to the wind

earlier and asked the internet people
and we have a discord that we use for

a lot of our live streams and stuff.

And I put out there and said, Hey yep.

Any questions?

Anybody wants, and.

I got a couple, and one of
them is a topic that I guess

we knew was gonna come around.

Let's start with the let's
start with the easy one.

What apps are you planning
on building for the headset?

I don't know what they're talking about.


So let.

I think it's too dangerous
a topic to touch on.

Will there be a headset at WWDC But I
think what they're saying is if there

was what apps would you build for it?

And actually I think this is a really
good question for you because I know with

some of your watch apps, like some of your
you got hardware and things like that.

Is this if this hardware is a.

Do you have plans or do you have ideas
or maybe you don't wanna share them?

Leo Dion (host): I do actually.

I do have an idea.

I do have an idea on my bucket list.

I don't know if I should reveal it on
this show cause someone sale my idea.

So could you, if you don't wanna
steal my idea, skip ahead to whatever

time code I'm done talking about it.


So I, this is not an exciting
idea, but it's an idea I've been

thinking about around the Dion House.

We have some barren walls where I want
to post pic, I wanna do some pictures,

add pictures to the wall and stuff.

And so I think what would be cool is an
AR app, and I honestly, it would work

on the iPad fine AR app, which would.

Stuff from your photo library and put it
on the wall of your house so you could

see what that picture would look like.


Peter Witham (guest): that's a good idea.


That can

Leo Dion (host): Maybe order.

Dang it.

Peter Witham (guest): No, don't worry.

You know what, I'm gonna
give you this idea for free.


You because I don't think I've got the
time to build it, and I'm sure you do.

Leo Dion (host): Yeah.

I don't either.

That's why it's on the bottom of my list.


Peter Witham (guest): what about
okay, so I want you I like that idea,

especially as a photographer, right?

If I can have an original Ansel Adams
hanging on my wall virtually, I'll go.


Leo Dion (host): cool.

It's cheaper.

Peter Witham (guest):
So we're good with that.

But also what about taking like
the, the fridge shopping list idea?

You have a, an ar version of the
shopping list that you can write on

the fridge, and it goes up to cloud
for everybody, there there's one.

Someone can have that for

Leo Dion (host): free.



Yeah, a to-do list app would probably
be the first app I would do on the

app, because I don't know how to
build a to-do list in AR kit, so I

would probably end up doing that too.

Yeah, I know what you mean.


Peter Witham (guest): don't worry.

I think by the, if the headset does
come out, w after about the first

week, there'll be a hundred tutorials
on making a virtual to-do list

Leo Dion (host): that's traditional
and probably 300, 300 bucks to file.

Oh yeah.


Yeah, sure.

Yeah, what other questions do you have?


Peter Witham (guest): so that,
that was the first question.

This next one you and I have
touched on before, but it's

always worth talking about.

What do you think, okay.

Of the one day format versus
either the historic in-person

format or the pandemic or virtual.

And what is that?


Leo Dion (host): those are three
different ones, three different format?

Peter Witham (guest): Yeah.

I think they've, or they're
basically so the old I guess if we

would break it down, the old style,
everything in person with live right.

The the new mixed style of kind of
this one day with and then virtual

and then the pandemic, all virtual.


I know for me, and I know from our
previous discussions, for you as well,

I love the mixed I think it's great.

I think it's important to have at
least the one day where, all right,

maybe you didn't get to the Apple ship.

But, some kind of in-person gathering.

And then the virtual for the real
technical stuff, because I think, you

and I were talking before the show.

We've lost that in person, in, connection
in some ways especially for folks

lazy like me that have not been to
a conference in person for a while.


So I actually think that the mixed
is a good idea because I think

that just doing the virtual is
great from a technical standpoint.

It's like doing your homework
as a kid at school, right?

It's great for that deep learning.

But the social aspect is
super important as well.

Very important.


You know what, but what do you think?

I like the mix, but how about you?

Leo Dion (host): I always
wanted to attend WWDC in person.

I think I was planning on attending
in 2020 until the apocalypse happened.

I never had that
opportunity to really do it.

I didn't, I couldn't
justify it before then.

Business wise.


I think honestly as far as like
ingesting stuff and taking in the

tutorials and the talks, I think.

I think the way it is now is fantastic.

I think it's unrealistic to do a
conference in-person conference

with as big as Apple is now.

I think 10 years ago, or even, 10
or 20 years ago, that made a lot

more sense to do WWDC in person,
but now it's it's so massive.

Like Apple's the biggest
company in the world.

I just couldn't imagine them doing a
conference and justifying it with as big

of a developer community as they have.

I do think.

That net, but you lose out on networking.

You lose up on meeting up with
actual Apple developers in person.

And so I think they're just, luckily folks
like Josh in our previous episode are

hosting conferences and folks like Adam
and the folks at synesthesia who are doing

Swift Heroes, like they have conferences.

We have Swift Toronto, and I
think that's filling in that

void of networking opportunity.

Obviously there's Zoom and
Slack and Discord and stuff,

but in Twitter and Macedon.

But like I do think yeah, the kinda like
in-person networking is something that.

Can't miss out on.

And it's unfortunate we don't have a way
to do that now formally through Apple.

But the other conferences are
just filling in that gap, I think.

Peter Witham (guest): And actually I like
that I think it feels more personable

when it's third parties saying, Hey,
let's do something, get together.

Because I, Anytime Apple's involved,
and this isn't a criticism of Apple,

but they're gonna be Apple, right?

And at the end of the day, that's
a company and so therefore it's

gonna be very it's gonna be the
way Apple does things, right?

Leo Dion (host): They have a legal
and a marketing department that

have a specific guidelines as
far as what you can and can't do.


It's gonna, it's not gonna
be a mock, it's losing.

Goosey has a.


Peter Witham (guest): Yeah.

Like for, so for example, you would not
go to an Apple driven event and be hyper

critical of Apple in some way unless you
never wanted to go to that event again.

Not to say that you shouldn't be
critical, we should, but the freedom

when it's a third party driven thing.

To be realistic, I think
is the best way to put it.

And to not let marketing and hype and
everything else get in the way and

really look at things and say, what's
the state of play for us really.


So I like the third
party approach as well.

Leo Dion (host): Yep.


Anything else you wanna talk about
before we close out or anything you

wanna mention that you're working on?

Yeah, sure.

Peter Witham (guest): I'll mention
something that I'm working on.

I'm working on an app at the
moment that I've been building.

I'm doing this building
in public, building.

And sharing with folks, and
it's been very interesting.

And one of the things that I've been doing
that with on the live streams is building

an app to help folks looking for work.

And it's not complicated by design.

It's not meant to be.

It just enables you to put details in.

To track a job application and, manage
all of those because you know how it

is you put a, you apply to a bunch
and then it's did I reply to that one?

Did I set something up?

And you can track it in there.

So I've got a beta.

Beta, test flight version of
that at the moment that I'm

getting feedback from people on.

And we'll put a link in the channel.


Leo Dion (host): people sign up?


Peter Witham (guest): that'd be great.


That is exactly what I want for folks.

It's and given the nature of the app
It's, it was an excuse as well for

me to do core data and cloud kit so
that it'll, for the syncing mechanism.

Nice, nice.


So I do want folks to use it.

It's not gonna cost anything because
the whole point is it's, it was the

idea came about when all, lots of our.

Friends, developers, and
that were losing jobs, right?

We, not to say that it's over by a
long shot, but putting it out there for

free in the hope that, hey, if I help
someone find a job, it was worth it.

Leo Dion (host): Put we'll
a link into the show.

Do you have an name?


Peter Witham (guest): the name?

The name is not one of my first choices.

I, so we should talk
about this just briefly.

It was one of those, I had a great
name, went up, went to put it in the

store, and it's yeah, that exists.

And you're like, ah,
didn't think about that.

It's the job finder tracker, which.

Is very descriptive.

Leo Dion (host): Yes.

Ariel Michaeli from AppFigures would love
that name because it's easy to search for.

So that's great.

Oh, there you go.

Peter Witham (guest): So yeah, it's it's
not listed in there at the moment, but

if you go over to my web website, you go
to peter whi.com it's there and you can

register to, to get on the test flight.

I will more than happy
to put people in there.

All I ask is that if they use it
and they find something, tell me.

But that's what I got.



Leo Dion (host): Yeah.

Thank you, Peter, for
coming on the show again.

We'll have you on again in a month
hopefully for our annual WWDC

where can people find you online?

Peter Witham (guest): Yep.


And Leo, thank you.

It's always a pleasure to
come back and talk with you.

And again, I should say right now,
thank you Apple for again putting

the conference on this year so
that, Leo and I can come together.

I think it's great that
Apple does that for us.

Leo Dion (host): For us.


I think that's like exactly
what they're thinking of.



Peter Witham (guest): They say that they
don't think about the little guys, but

they do it for you and I every year.

What is it?

Leo Dion (host): Apple?

Apple is number one.

Consumers, number two,
developers are number three.

I think we're like number 1.5.

We're like in between fair apple's and
the consumers on the priority lists.

Peter Witham (guest): We know that,
they're watching in their background.

Hello Apple?



So yeah, thanks Apple.

But yeah, you could find me two places.

Like I say, comp Compile Swift is pretty
much what I'm known for everywhere.

CompileSwift.com and every.

Anything else.

And then me personally, if you want to
reach out to me, you can go to Peter

Whitham, just my name, peterwitham.com.

And reach out to me there.

Leo Dion (host): Cool.

Thank you so much for
joining us for this episode.

If you enjoy this on YouTube,
please and subscribe.

I'd really appreciate it.

You don't know how helpful that is.

If you are listening to this,
give us a review in whatever

your favorite podcast player is.

We'll be back in a couple of weeks to,
I dunno, we'll talk about something.

Maybe I'll talk about my Swift
World tour, which I'm currently

on at the time of this release.

So maybe I can give
some insights from that.

We'll see.

Otherwise, thank you for joining us.

Talk to you in a couple weeks.

Bye everyone.