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*Winner - Best Tech Podcast - 2025 Quill Podcast Awards*
British Columbia is experiencing an unprecedented housing crisis. While addressing various aspects of the housing supply chain is essential, no single approach can fully solve the challenges we face in scaling housing production. So, what's the blueprint for growth?
In November 2023, DIGITAL — Canada's Global Innovation Cluster for digital technologies — launched its Housing Growth Innovation Program with support from the Province of British Columbia through the Ministry of Housing and Municipal Affairs. The program brings together collaborative teams of industry leaders to accelerate technology-driven approaches that are driving real, tangible growth for British Columbia's housing production sector.
Amy Vilis, Director of Housing Growth Innovation at DIGITAL, chats with innovators doing groundbreaking work within DIGITAL's Housing Growth Innovation Program to develop and implement technology-based solutions within British Columbia's housing sector across the full scale of end-to-end production. These conversations showcase how ideas are making it into the real world where they can become comprehensive, viable and, best of all, achievable solutions to accelerate housing production for British Columbians.
Clip Series: (00:00.46)
Working together, we are making a positive impact on the region's urgent housing challenges. Guys, we are undergoing a monumental shift in... ...are tackling the housing crisis. If we don't make some of these changes, don't address these gaps, don't address these costs, we will see less homes being built rather than more. Once we increase as a country the rate of home building, then that is going to make home... ...as much lower than they otherwise would be and how the province and cities price.
Canada needs to have one native offering environment. Promote and mandate being bringing all the stakeholders together. Become more pragmatic in its approach to the delivery of housing.
Invest more in skilled programs.We really need to adopt and innovate to meet the challenge where it's at.
And changing that is hard. it's nobody embraces change easily.
If Canada doesn't adapt. We'll be kicking this problem to the next generation.
Amy Villis (01:02.252)
If you're listening, you already know Canada needs more housing and it needs it fast. Across the country, individuals and family are feeling the squeeze as demand continues to outpace supply. Canada's housing system is at a turning point and with that comes enormous opportunity. We're entering a new era, one where governments, builders and innovators are rethinking how homes are planned, designed and delivered.
There's a lot of talk about modern methods of construction and industrialized approaches, but the real backbone of change is the digital technology powering these products and processes. It's what connects data, AI, automation, Internet of Things, and digital twins across the complex housing production lifecycle. But here's the thing, even the best innovations won't move the needle if our systems can't talk to each other or if they don't have the data to rely on. Interoperability and data quality go hand in hand.
When our tools, platforms and information all speak the same language, accurately and consistently, it's when innovation becomes impact, when the progress really sticks. And that's what this podcast is all about, where new ideas, technology and leadership are reshaping the future of Canadian housing. Welcome to Blueprint for Growth, Innovation and Housing. I'm Amy Villas, Director of Housing Growth Innovation at Digital, Canada's global innovation cluster for digital technologies.
This season is powered by the Housing Growth Innovation Program with support from the province of British Columbia through the Ministry of Housing and Municipal Affairs. Who, I must say, are making real progress with the BC Building Permit Hub, a provincial initiative creating a digital gateway to streamline and standardize construction and permitting information with an aim of helping communities across BC grow. This season builds on last year's global award-winning series. You'll hear from builders, designers, Indigenous leaders, digital pioneers, academics,
regulators and workforce changemakers, all helping shape the future of housing in Canada. We'll also be talking to the Honourable Christine Boyle, BC's Minister of Housing and Municipal Affairs, about where she sees the future of housing production. We'll explore how innovation, collaboration and digital technologies are reshaping every part of Canadians' housing production system, from permitting and design to manufacturing, workforce development and housing projects led by Indigenous and community innovators.
Amy Villis (03:15.916)
And throughout the season, we'll unpack how data, AI, automation and modular construction are connecting the dots across a complex ecosystem, showing how leaders from across the country are turning big ideas into real results. Let's dive in and see how Canada's brightest minds are building what's next. So whether you're working in construction, policy, tech or community development, or you're simply passionate about where we live and how we live, join us as we explore the stories and ideas driving Canada's housing future.
Innovation in housing starts by asking practical questions. How do we move bold ideas from concept to actual construction, especially when every region faces its own challenges and opportunities? This episode explores practical context driven change, how modern methods of construction, regional innovation and smarter digital integration are shaping what's possible for Canada's housing.
Brandon Searle is my first guest. He's the Director of Innovation and Operations at UNBC's off-site construction research center, and he shares how modular building and digital manufacturing unlock new approaches. He emphasizes that innovation works best when it's built around people, process, and technology, not just a one-size-all solution. While Brandon lays the case for regional and people-centered transformation, my second guest, Philip Gruner, dives into how closing regulatory and supply chain gap and scaling digital platforms
can move the whole sector forward. Philip draws attention to harmonized standards, adaptable construction, and the need to empower Indigenous communities with practical tools and local solutions. Brandon Searle is the Director of Innovation and Operations at the University of New Brunswick's offsite construction research center. He has led the center's rapid growth, building national partnerships, launching research projects, and expanding its technical lab.
Canada is signaling quite strong that modern methods of construction are something everyone's looking at right now. From a definition standpoint, the other term I hear quite often is industrialized construction. Maybe you can provide me a little bit of an understanding, what's the difference between the two and what the implications are and what they have in common.
Brandon Searle (05:25.838)
We kind of use industrialized construction and modern methods of construction interchangeably. The way I interpret it is MMC is like the broader definition. So it includes the industrializing the industry, which is more towards like mechanization and automation, that type of stuff. But it also includes using like digital tools, new materials, advances in design, et cetera, that will really...
enable increased productivity in the sector, whereas the industrialized definition I view as more like the mechanization and kind of transition from construction to manufacturing. And it kind of falls in the MMC definition a little bit, but that's kind of how I like to think about it. And I think most people still will for a while.
So when people are throwing around modern methods of construction as a term, what does that actually mean in Canada and how does it stack up against places like UK or Sweden?
So there's seven categories. I'll do my best off the of my head here. But the first one is volumetric modular. So that's the traditional boxes that we think about. Next one is panelization, like structural panels.
Next one is like non-systemized components that are part of a building. Those could be like pile caps and different things like this. The fourth one is really what I like to think about as like mechanical pods, bathroom pods, kitchen pods, different sub-assemblies that aren't structural in any form. And then the UK has included additive manufacturing or 3D printing as category five. And I kind of view the first four categories as like offsite specific category five is like an in-between and category six
Brandon Searle (07:03.108)
and seven is on site. so one's focused on like digital tools that enable productivity increase on the job site. And that can be things like drones.
Scanners, like things that we use every day, we just don't realize it, but like using an iPad on the job site or whatever it might be. The last one's all about products on the job site that increase productivity. And the easiest one to think about is insulated concrete forms or ICF. And there's more, you know, plug and play type technologies that are coming out to speed up construction on the job site and increase quality and repeatability. Nice thing is like a lot of that on site, those on site categories, particularly around digital tools will actually enable for more offsite construction to happen and for it to be more effective and efficient.
Bringing it to the idea of whether we're talking off-site and or a hybrid on-site with off-site product, where is the differences between a Canadian-owned solution and as opposed to what we're seeing in Europe? How are we doing things different or how do we need to do things different to meet the need in Canada versus always looking at a European model?
The culture is much different. if you go to the UK, the hotel rooms are smaller. You're usually in a single bed, not a queen or a king. Your bathroom is relatively small. And so it allows modular offsite construction seems to work best in those cultures. But in some provinces, everyone drives a truck. You need a garage for your truck. You need a deep freeze for everything from Costco. We're just used to a different way of life, I think, over here. And that needs to be thought about when we're thinking about how we have
Brandon Searle (08:44.88)
by MMC, how do we increase productivity through innovation and modernizing this sector? And offsite construction may play a role in that. You for us, I think we just have to apply it based on what makes sense in our jurisdiction. You know, up north, there's labor shortage, difficulty accessing equipment at times, difficulty accessing certain materials. So certain types of MMC may make sense. In BC, leaders in mass timber.
You know, that makes a lot of sense to consider building a whole sector around mass timber. The other piece I guess that we have to think about is just in terms of population trends in different spots of the country. In some provinces, there's a rapidly aging population compared to other provinces. And with that has different impacts on the sector and the needs of the region. So there's a few considerations I think we have to do. But overall, there's there's an opportunity for I think a national strategy and then some nuances within each kind of province and region as well. Now, the
The other big opportunity is around panelization. And when I say that, I don't mean specific like wood, light wood panels. I'm thinking mass timber, CLT stuff that BC is doing a great job on. around for a long time and know, CPCI is an association that's been advocating for that industry for a while. And then like gauge steel panels. And so I think there's a huge opportunity there.
Amy Villis
So are there big policy regulatory roadblocks that you see that are affecting MMC?
Brandon Searle (10:22.476)
Yes, on the technical side, like I think there's still a bit of a learning curve for like building officials and things to understand the difference between their CSA Z240, which is standard that's for like manufactured buildings or mobile homes. And then there's 8277, which is for permanent modular buildings or buildings built in a factory. So if you start closing the interior and the MEP behind those walls, you should.
have A27 certification, A277. And then ideally the building officials will accept that. But we hear stories of where some jurisdictions, they get you to cut open all the walls and you gotta do all that rework and stuff afterwards to make the building inspectors happy. That's also a reason why some companies are just enclosing the exterior and not the interior. Yeah, there's also an issue around procurement, financing, insurance.
So in traditional financing, the funds are released based on on-site progress and then progress claims throughout. And in a lot of prefab projects, the reason why there's cost certainty is because the companies are procuring materials in bulk at a certain time and you're locking in your most costs early on, but they're taking on a lot of risks. So a lot of times they'll say, we'll need 20 % down at the beginning of a project and then
up to 80 % of it gets done and then they'll get the remaining payment of the module when it arrives on site. While most banks won't give that down payment, most contractors don't have that cashflow to pay for that. And so it's just not happening right now. And the traditional design bid build just won't work to do this at scale or even like we really got to think about to really leverage the sector the right way. Think about how we
Brandon Searle (12:14.744)
procure for a program rather than procuring for a one-off project to really gain economies of scale. So you should really be thinking about a progressive design build approach, which is you bring your design team, often led by the architecture firm. You bring in a GC who is familiar with prefab and you bring in that primary prefab manufacturer. So companies brings everyone together from the onset and they go through this progressive kind of design build process.
and that's proven to work well. I've heard that CCDC, Canadian Construction Documents Committee, which it's my understanding is it's a committee formed from like the Canadian Construction Association, the Royal Architects Institute of Canada and Engineers Canada, they come together to create these contract templates. Now I understand that they've been working through a progressive design build and we've written with a group of organizations a letter suggesting that they
consider doing a template looking at first like volumetric modular, and then there'd be options to scale it back to like panelization and other forms of prefab.
When we look at modern methods of construction, the digital heartbeat of all of it. Maybe if you could speak about where digital products are really moving the needle on how we're engaging with multiple trades or how we're engaging with our design for manufacturing. Maybe if you could talk about the digital products that are going into things.
So what we often found was that back at the design phase, they're not equipped with the right tools to actually implement any of the automation and stuff that may be recommended further down the line. On the digital front, like getting your house in order on the design side is the most important thing to then look at automation and speeding things up in the factory. And if we got into this more manufacturing mindset where it is almost like plug and play like IKEA, then
Brandon Searle (14:16.983)
It would make a lot of sense.
Yeah, digital designs that then get fed into a digital software that incorporates that into the manufacturing process.
And they can start optimizing for like the size of materials. So you're reducing the waste throughout. It was a translator between like the software and the equipment and it optimized and rejigged the whole design to optimize for what the equipment's capable of and also what the size of the material is. And so there's more of that stuff going on now. Any organization that is working in construction or building housing should consider how can they do this in a more modern, repeatable quicker, more productive way.
Amy Villis (14:59.992)
While Brandon brings a lens shaped by Eastern innovation and industry research, our next guest approaches housing transformation from the intersection of supply chain, manufacturing and national standards. Philip Gruner, a leader in digital and offsite construction with nearly 20 years in the prefab housing industry explores how regulatory harmonization, supply chain modernization and hybrid trades can unlock Canada's housing potential. As a former CEO of Paradigm Building Solutions and now a consultant, he helps organizations and governments understand the advantages of offsite construction, combining European and Canadian best practices to create true Canadian solutions that keep people, data and communities at the centre of innovation. Can we drill into what it means to create modern methods of construction that align with Canada, whether it's our climate, codes, workforce? What does it look like to you?
Philip Gruner
Canada is obviously a large country with different climate regions. think one of the biggest challenges, and I think we're to talk about this after a little bit, is harmonizing a building code coast to coast. And I think one of the big success stories that Europe has faced is because they have something like that. They have a harmonized building code. Since the creation of the European Union, it even went a step up. They have a harmonized European building code.
that still allow some modifications for countries in certain areas. The second thing is the availability of lumber in general. Europe, for example, you can buy any type of OSB sheet you want, like different sizes, different thickness, same with dimensional lumber. We are very standardized here in Canada. You can only buy certain sheets of OSB, you can only buy certain sheets of plywood, and then not to get too...
too much into the costing side of things. When you go into the mass timber side of things, such as glulams or CLT, we just don't have the supply chain, the providers to that mass yet where it makes economical sense to utilize that. We did a study a year ago or so where we looked at purchasing glulams here locally in Canada versus bringing them over from Europe. And just a crazy thing to think about that is the lumber or the wood is harvested in Sweden.
It gets transported to Germany. gets put together or the glulams are being produced in Germany. They go into a container. They're shipped over to Vancouver and they arrive somewhere in BC and it's still 25 % cheaper than what you can get here. So if he as an industry can focus on that and bring that down, I think would be a big step.
Amy Villis
So demand, we've all established a bill Canada Homes is really pushing some audacious numbers out around the housing starts that we need to accomplish in the coming years. So talking about offsite, your experience in the sector, do you think that we need more manufacturing plants?
I understand that work is being done right now to actually figure out how much we can produce in Canada with our current capacity. What I can tell you right now, and that's not a big secret because the construction industry is in a bit of a low point right now in Canada, there is definitely capacity out there. So I think there are ways to utilize existing manufacturing facilities and see how we can optimize their production. There's things we can do with double shifts, maybe even triple shifts.
As far as shoring up the supply chain and the manufacturers in this space, what are your thoughts and feelings about how to get those traditional builders involved? Because I think they're a very important part of shoring up the manufacturing elements of our country.
And the issue with that is we have to figure out that there's a coexistence there. So if you're a volumetric builder or if you're panelized builder, you still need onsite trades no matter what. And I still chalk that up to traditional construction. There are actually many examples where traditional home builders use components of offsite construction. So this whole discussion about only prefab, only traditional, I think that narrative has to change in both of those industries. need to start looking at
Philip Gruner (19:08.172)
How can we optimize each side's skill set to really make this happen? One last quick example on that is, I always say to customers, it's great if we can put a frame building up in eight weeks. The problem is, if your plumber and your electricians and the sub-trains don't keep up with that speed, then you've lost that advantage at the front end. So that's why I think it has to be a common approach. It has to be really rigid.
project management approach right from the get-go to actually optimize off-site manufacturing with what can't be done off-site yet.
Amy Villis
Yeah, I agree. How do you see in the near term different technologies such as obviously robotics in the sense of the manufacturing space, AI or other digital tools feeding up that design permitting or project delivery? Maybe start on the robotic side in manufacturing for a little bit.
Philip Gruner
It's quite interesting in Europe, a lot of the robots are starting to be actually removed out of factories. The cost benefit of actually paying for a robot versus what the return on investment is and the speed, I think they figured out by now it's not necessarily there. There's still some components that you can do that with. They've started to figure out that there's a balance in automation. There's automatic framing tables. There's, you know, the conveyor systems.
how in your example technology goes into the whole production line and make it smoother so there's no stops, starts and stops throughout the production of something is becoming more more important. So the way a whole factory operates and that's from procurement to when it's fed into the machine, to when it comes out, when it's bundled or volumetric if you know what the sequencing is or how the inventory is controlled.
Amy Villis (20:56.46)
I think there's still a lot of room to grow there for sure. There is a ton of systems out there. A lot of them don't talk to each other. So now you have the problem of finding a tool that actually combines it all together. So kind of taking those digital designs and the out of the gate stuff that gets designed for then it actually you know, has interoperability with all the other data and programs. know the machinery has its own software that doesn't talk to the ERP systems and sort of tying all that together. I indeed see that and have multiple conversations with people going, if there was a silver bullet, but there isn't, I call it creating the connective tissue, finding those opportunities to use digital technologies, to theme APIs, to talk to different systems, to get those efficiencies. And I really appreciate your viewpoint about the robotics and those heavy investments. think we've had these conversations that what we don't want to see is mega plants and major robotics spends in the next couple of years. The roots here too is thinking like how is the best way to bring the trades together to learn these new skills to thrive in these environments.
Yeah, you're right. The equipment that's coming out now in terms of building some of these outside construction materials are highly computerized, automated, and really we're seeing a bit of a shift from more heavy machine operator versus the original carpentry trade. That being said, there are still components with assembling some of these parts that require some carpentry skills. So really we're talking about a bit of a hybrid role or position on the shop floor. But you're right. think universities, trade schools have to start talking a little bit more to industry and say, okay, do we just focus purely on the carpentry trade? We will still need carpenters. There's no question about that. But is there a hybrid program for somebody that wants to learn machine operation, CNC automation coupled with the trade of building something?
Philip Gruner
I agree. And I would take it a step further and say like that notion of a hybrid and multi-trade because we are embedding base things like, you know, electrical conduit or plumbing in some of these wall panels on an assembled site. It almost leans into everyone's got to be a bit of a jack of all trade in some cases as well. So yes, definitely our workforce is going to need some support and our educators around what that looks like. Looking at policy standpoint, what are the quick wins?
I think for sure looking at some kind of a standardization in terms of building code, maybe there's an opportunity right now that there's such a big focus with the federal government to look at offsite construction. Maybe there is some form of a building code that can be adopted there. We have something called CSA approval, which a lot of biometric companies are actually certified. I don't think dropping the building code is the right word, but it meets building code no matter what. Maybe that could be used as a baseline and built on top of that to just speed up approval processes support investment in Indigenous community and the underserved remote areas of the country in the use of modern methods of construction.
Philip Gruner (24:18.112)
You know, I think there's a big opportunity there, especially under the concept of nations or Indigenous communities building for Indigenous communities. I think there's enough know-how in Canada that we could actually support Indigenous First Nations to build some of these off-site construction facilities, either on the reserve land or their land or somewhere nearby. Having a strategic location out there, for example, we're in Northern Ontario to build for some of these communities, standardize some housing. I think it's a massive opportunity. It's got local employment. We could even take it a step further where it's a member harvest. If it's on the traditional lands, it's harvested material that actually gets produced into housing for indigenous communities. I think there's a ton of work that can be done there. My opinion is we don't need mega factories. And if you see over the past
A few years in the UK and the US, even to some extent here in Canada, these mega factories open up and then they close after two or three years. And there's just such an under appreciation of what kind of a cash draw these plants have. If there is a blip in the market, if there's a blip in the economy and you can't put stuff through that factory, that is a fixed cost and you are going to have to pay that fixed costs. I think there is a real neat approach to looking at something a little bit smaller, efficient and utilize it to some extent through shifts and keep a small plant busy versus a large plant that might be busy for six months out of the year and then all of sudden three months you have nothing. Going back to Indigenous communities, that's kind of their sweet spot, like a 20,000 square foot plant or a 25,000 square foot plant that produces one, two or three kind of housing types. I think there's a big opportunity there. I'm hoping that this initiative really finds a solution to the Canadian housing problem. We can use best practices from all over the world, but we're unique here. But we also have extremely skilled carpenters. We have extremely skilled people that have been building homes and large buildings for a long time. And there has to be a way of moving forward, not saying, you know, this is the only approach, this is the only approach. We need to do something that fits for Canada.
Amy Villis (26:35.254)
Now more than ever, I think with what's happening in the macroeconomic environment. I really hope that the whole industry from number providers to construction to also manufacturing really rallies around this and starts to build a really resilient industry here that we can keep local. Tie in multiple software solutions in a fabrication environment into one unit where you can use multiple benefits of those programs to optimize your manufacturing facility. So what do you see as the path forward?
Philip Gruner
It's just time to changing, right? Technology is advancing, AI is advancing, and we have to change with it. The traditional construction groups have to become more open to new products and also manufacturing technology companies need to be open enough to help traditional construction integrate that. And only that approach, I think, will solve our construction needs and become probably a big force. I'm hoping in 10 years, people are going to look at Canada and say, how did they do that? We're not quite there yet, but I think we can get there.
Amy Villis (27:40.896)
I love it. Those are beautiful, hopeful words. Thank you, Philip. Thanks to Brandon and Philip for showing that meaningful housing innovation isn't just about new technology or policy. It's about breaking silos and putting local context at the center. Today's conversation reminded us that progress happens when innovation is practical, grounded, and inclusive.
Whether it's modular solutions tailored to local climates or open regulatory systems that connect the entire supply chain. Up next, we'll move from concept to delivery, exploring how innovation works on the ground through digital tools, modular techniques, and real policy reform. This podcast and Digital's Housing Growth Innovation Program are made possible with the financial support of the province of British Columbia through the Ministry of Housing and Municipal Affairs.