Season 10 Changes EVERYTHING, Casuals are SEETHING and F*CK Wolverine ft Gallus & Mung

In this episode we break down the new season 10 patch notes and decide if this saved Marvel Rivals! 

What is Clear Comms Podcast?

A Marvel Rivals Podcast hosted by Coach Mills and CaptainCoach, two creator and educators for Marvel Rivals. We discuss all things Rivals including META, balance and the future of development. We will often debate controversial topics that surround the game and plan to bring on many exciting guests from pros to devs!!!

mung (00:00.259)
Ha ha.

Coach Mills (00:00.477)
What's up everyone and welcome to a brand new Clearcoms episode. Season 10 is finally here along a new hero, Gore, the God Butcher, and of course, buffs and nerfs that fixed the game. Maybe we'll find out after a honestly really terrible 9.5. Let's see what the future is looking like. I first wanna ask Gallus. I wanna I wanna, you know. No, you know this people. Okay. Okay.

CaptainCoach (00:24.291)
Wait, we're not gonna introduce we're not gonna introduce aga restart, restart, restart, restart, restart. Restart, restart, restart, restart, restart.

Gallus (00:27.419)
Mm-hmm.

mung (00:28.826)
Ha ha.

Coach Mills (00:30.459)
no, I I I can act I can just I can cut it. I mean I can just I can I can have them introduce themselves now. Okay.

CaptainCoach (00:34.799)
All right, all right, I'll I'll introduce him. Okay. So we got two of my favorite c opinion leaders right now in the community, I would say. I'd say for Gallus, he's my favorite when it comes to balance philosophy, design philosophy. I love hearing his takes on heroes like Fant and and his idea on like what is a good change, what is a bad change. He makes some of the best content. short form is is where he's killing it. And then Mmung

Gallus (01:03.326)
Right.

CaptainCoach (01:04.044)
Mmung talks about like everything else. Like Mung Hmong, if if you don't know who Hmong is, he he'll he'll do rod reviews of people and he's it started out him he made like a hate video of me kinda a little bit well critique and I never watched it. I still haven't watched it, but people

Coach Mills (01:13.895)
Let's go.

Gallus (01:19.064)
Ha.

Coach Mills (01:19.367)
By by by the way, if you make if you make a hate video on Captain Coach and it goes viral, you are guaranteed a spot on the podcast. Anytime. I'll bring all of you on. Every single one of you. I'm just letting you know. I'm just letting you know in advance. It's my favorite kind of content to watch. It is my favorite. A hundred

CaptainCoach (01:26.861)
Ha ha.

mung (01:31.171)
I mean there could be a long list of people, man. There's like how many at this point?

CaptainCoach (01:32.857)
But

Gallus (01:34.806)
Yeah.

CaptainCoach (01:35.883)
There it's f it's funny before we started this pod, apparently there's there's some guy on on TikTok that we were we were doing our support challenge that you know we were talking about before we started. Apparently it's there's another one going off. I'm yelling at some kid.

Coach Mills (01:48.443)
It's popping off. You're you're welcome on the pod too. Yeah, you're you're everyone everyone anyway, sorry.

CaptainCoach (01:51.375)
geez. Anyway, so so Hung, you got some base takes, man. a lot of stuff that you talk about is is going after the the cheaters and the snipers and y you got some inside sources which you have a track record of like being right about a lot of the things that have happened.

mung (02:08.077)
Yeah, that's I mean, if you knew how bad it really was, man, like it's believe me, there'll be some more in the future for sure as well.

CaptainCoach (02:14.318)
Well there you go. I w really happy to have both of you guys on. I'm actually really, really excited for this episode. This is gonna be a based episode. I can already feel it. So

Coach Mills (02:21.267)
Yeah. Yeah. I'm I'm I'm really hyped. I'm really excited. But the first thing I wanna ask, and Galls, I'm gonna kick this question off to you, is how did you feel about nine point five? Like where exactly do you think things kinda went wrong? I think like people were really excited at the beginning of nine, but then things progressively kind of got worse. And I I I personally agree or believe, I don't know if you agree, that nine point five was perhaps one of the worst seasons we've had as far as, you know, like

Streamer and high level experience. So what is your takes on, you know, the end of nine point five? What is what what went wrong in your opinion?

Gallus (02:59.17)
Look, like I think it I think it excuse me. I think it was like a like a combo of two different things. Like I kinda I kinda agree, but I've been pretty I feel like I personally hit a bit of burnout way earlier. So like around the time Gambit came in. So with with everyone, like I think there's been quite a bit of community like people are just there's a lot more vocal

what the hell is going on with the game, basically going on. And there are sort of like two things that come up for me. I think one was that the whole viral like three and a half minute teamfight thing, I think was actually just bigger than maybe I expected when it first happened. and everyone was talking about it. And, you know, when that happens, I think this far on in the game's like lifespan now, I think it's like I think it wasn't just

that that this patch happened or season nine happened. It was that it was another reminder that a lot of the same pain points are still there for a lot of people. And at the same time, I think with season nine, I I think season nine was a really good patch. I think it was a really, really good update. I think it was a great idea, but I think season nine was like the first step in that direction. Like they threw all this new content, all the new team ups at the game, and it was by design gonna be unbalanced and a complete like haphazard mess.

And of course it's gonna get solved, and I guess the more lopsided is, l the lopsided it is, the quicker it's going to get solved. And once it was, they didn't do the first balance pass. Like I I feel like we're not in the new t we're not in like team ups two point We're we're in like team ups one point nine. And it's like we still haven't seen what the new team ups system is gonna be if it actually like i if they could stick the landing. And we we didn't even get

Coach Mills (04:37.173)
Yeah.

CaptainCoach (04:37.473)
Yeah. Yeah.

mung (04:38.501)
Yeah.

CaptainCoach (04:45.774)
Mm.

Gallus (04:53.804)
We didn't get that for season ten and that's what I wanted to see.

CaptainCoach (04:56.546)
Mmung.

Coach Mills (04:56.711)
We didn't I mean we didn't get anything for nine point five, right? Like w during that transitionary phase, right?

CaptainCoach (05:01.25)
Not much. We got the Je d Dino Jeff. They buffed one. F if you're talking about team ups. But Mung, I I wanna talk to you 'cause your your content was specifically warning us about season nine. You knew something big was coming. Well yeah, just go ahead. Yeah. Whatever you want to say about it. Yeah.

Coach Mills (05:05.651)
Yeah, that's yeah, yeah.

mung (05:14.689)
yeah. Well Yeah. Let me I'll I'll just get into the whole thing. I think the conceptually the team ups are not a bad idea. They kind of had to rework it in some regard. But the problem is they implemented a lot of team ups that were just so bad for the game in a lot of ways. Like one that I don't see people talk about a lot Invisible Woman. What's the damage boost percentage on her shield? Does anyone here know? No? Get ready for this black pill.

Gallus (05:37.495)
Nope.

CaptainCoach (05:37.57)
No clue.

mung (05:40.23)
20%. It does 20% extra damage on any projectile going through it. Does that not seem brain dead to anybody? We're going into a poke heavy meta. Poke heavy meta, and these Invis players are just a step above cloak players. They don't even know what they're doing. They're just spamming the shield on these people. No, it's true though. It's true. They're spamming the shield on these people and they're getting free value. It's basically a permanent 20% damage boost that's up for the the entirety of the game.

Coach Mills (05:47.987)
That seems like that's pretty s pretty upset.

Gallus (05:49.278)
Yeah.

CaptainCoach (05:55.947)
All right.

Gallus (05:56.32)
Ha ha ha.

Coach Mills (05:56.802)
Okay.

mung (06:07.171)
And it's brain dead too, because it's not even a toggle. Like it would be reasonable if it was maybe like 10%, which would still be obscenely busted. But if she had to press a button to toggle it, let's say like it starts off like the blue normal shield, then she presses a button and it switches from healing to damage. But instead it's a permanent effect. I think team-ups like that aren't a good idea. Like that's not even a team-up, she's just infused with the power permanently. And then if torch is in the lobby, this is another thing that's busted with that team-up. The shield gets bigger. The shield's the size of Emma's shield.

With the same HP, but the thing that's even worse is the radius of the slow gets bigger. So if an Invis is using it well, you basically lock down an entire choke and everybody is slowed until it's broken. That's a bad team up for the game. Same with Mantis. Mantis is a already problematic hero in high elo. I used to play I finished top 500 twice. Like I I that character was always a problem. She would enable triple support cons, but now we gave her the ability because any character that applies speed boost and damage boost, that's a strong hero.

Coach Mills (06:49.032)
All right.

mung (07:05.827)
And then on top of that, now she could do it in a two two two comp even if it's a triple support comp, she's even better.

Coach Mills (07:09.002)
man, wait. I got you you brought up Mantis and this is actually something I wanted to show you guys on the pod.

CaptainCoach (07:09.804)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (07:18.717)
Because this is let me share my screen. So I was browsing through you know reactions on TikTok. And I know like a big debate we've had is like casual versus competitive. And I think TikTok has the most amount of casual people. So if you can see this, this was this is a I took this screenshot from TikTok. And it said the face you make before destroying the balance of your game, and it's you know, you know, it's of course double G and Z Young. And the top comment by a mile with

mung (07:33.354)
for sure.

Gallus (07:36.419)
Ha ha.

CaptainCoach (07:37.801)
wow.

Coach Mills (07:48.187)
With almost 1200 likes. It probably has over 2K at this point. Their obsession with nerfing Mantis is so weird. This is what the casuals believe. This, these type of takes, this is why we just we will never truly achieve any semblance of a of a reasonable bounce patch as long as Netties is intent on trying to appeal to everybody, which is I think is what they're doing.

They're trying to do a little bit of this, a little bit of that. And he got fucking people thinking that Mantis is s some oppressed support that doesn't deserve this. Why do they keep nerfing her? What what are you doing that for?

mung (08:24.791)
Yeah.

CaptainCoach (08:27.148)
Y you could cut Mantis's damage in half and she'd still be useful. Like she'd she'd still probably be picked. Yeah. Like I like she's so she has so much going for her and I think a lot of these lower rank players probably don't tap into the damage part of her kit. They're kind of more just sitting back and, you know, fire shot here, fire shot here. At least that's my guess.

mung (08:34.757)
Still be probably pretty good.

Coach Mills (08:48.123)
And and and and that's kind of the I mean, not to harp on this whole conversation again too much, but if you're not hitting any headshots, which is a key part of her gameplay loop, right? Hitting headshots to get back her leaves, and if you're not damage boosting that reliably, you're just healing and you're not really able to be aggressive, you're really not even playing the character how she was designed to be played, like at all. So why would we balance for that person?

mung (08:59.139)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (09:16.701)
That is not playing a design character how they're designed. I just I just don't understand it. Like I like is does do either of y'all have some takes on on that for clarity or Gallus, maybe?

CaptainCoach (09:26.306)
I mean having a a character with a headshot mechanic like that they need to use to get the max potential is in a game like this naturally going to cause problems.

Coach Mills (09:37.251)
May maybe they should have just body shots. Maybe that's the way that they need to balance the fucking character. Make it so you when you hit a body shot you get a leaf back. Then we can actually fucking nerf the character cause the casuals are more in line. I mean seriously, is that what we have to do?

mung (09:38.201)
Yeah.

CaptainCoach (09:40.588)
Maybe. We've been talking about We've been

CaptainCoach (09:48.397)
Yeah.

mung (09:50.659)
I mean if we heavily nerf her first, maybe, but like we gotta tweak the numbers on that character heavily in order to like rework it.

Gallus (09:50.853)
I mean like maybe.

Coach Mills (09:56.115)
Well, that's what I'm saying is you can't you can't nerf her because then it's the character doesn't even function for a low ranked player. Well, they did.

CaptainCoach (10:02.178)
Well they did. They did nerf her. Right. And they nerfed the the casual part about her. Like now you have to land headshots more to use her if we wanna get into the notes a little bit 'cause they reduced the recharge rate of reliefs. Yeah, spoilers. It

mung (10:04.485)
Well you did.

Gallus (10:04.514)
They did.

Coach Mills (10:13.94)
wait, wait spoiler spoiler. Yeah but yeah, yeah, it's just

Gallus (10:16.202)
my g that that's gonna I I swear to god, if I see in the next patch there is then a compensation buff because they accid they accidentally raised her floor. Like

CaptainCoach (10:22.678)
Yep Yup.

Coach Mills (10:22.739)
No, just just wait. They're g they're gonna say some shit like these pro and and s these pro players and streamers ruined the game because they kept on nerfing Mantis and now the character's unplayable in gold. You're gonna see it. You're gonna see it. I'm just gonna I'm just letting you know. Yeah. Yeah.

mung (10:27.365)
I mean they always do that though. Like that's just how the game is.

Gallus (10:41.068)
Like like y if they never buffed her in the first place, you wouldn't be saying this. And she'd still be your goat. Like I I I don't know what to say to you, bro. Like

CaptainCoach (10:41.538)
Yeah. They

CaptainCoach (10:49.624)
They use bad balance to justify more bad balance. And we've seen that with the season ten patch, which we'll get into. Spoiler alert, I don't think it's great. Okay. And they'll do a a lot of what Yeah, we'll do they'll do a lot of what I like to call double buffing and sometimes double nerfing, but knowing that's usually double buffing, which is they'll have something like, we'll just use an example as BP.

Coach Mills (10:54.01)
Ha ha

Coach Mills (11:03.227)
I probably think it's better than you, but not great, yeah.

CaptainCoach (11:17.982)
Actually I don't what's what's someone who's bad into thing who got buffed this patch? Like I like Thing Thing got nerfed this patch and and naturally

Coach Mills (11:23.463)
I mean group group got a little or you said bad into thing? bad into bad into thing. Like everybody.

Gallus (11:23.511)
No anyone with hands?

CaptainCoach (11:27.862)
Yeah, d well I'll just leave an example. Like like it would be it would be like buffing BP the same patch you nerfed thing. Like you don't gotta buff BP the same I mean you probably do, but like just, you know, for argument's sake, right? And they do this all the time. They I I counted, they did it like at least four or five times, you know, with the the support alt nerf, something that should have not even been in the game at all. Now that they're now they're compensating all these underperforming supports, even though, you know, it it was just a result of

Coach Mills (11:31.687)
Ha ha ha.

CaptainCoach (11:56.973)
Like them being pushed out, right? And Gauss you you said you wanted to say something.

Gallus (11:59.064)
Yeah. l like if they just bop the meta on the head, then a new meta will emerge. They don't need a they don't need to like reflexively knee jerk and try and force the complete opposite. Or like, I I mean, I I'll wait for specific heroes till we get into it, but like they they took the thing out of his spot and I think they just replaced it with someone else. And like yeah. yeah. Like

Coach Mills (12:15.111)
Yeah, there's a that's gonna be a lot. Yeah. Well Well Let let's let's Yeah, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, okay. We're getting too let's let's let's talk real quick. I wanna get y'all's opinions about give me a score about nine point as a whole, including nine point five, out of ten. Well like like ten being it was the fucking best and one being

CaptainCoach (12:16.141)
Uh-huh.

mung (12:16.973)
There's a lot.

CaptainCoach (12:21.496)
Dino, you you think?

Ha ha.

Coach Mills (12:43.551)
like literally unplayable, quit the game, go play Fortnite or some shit. like what is what is your what is your score among I'm gonna start with you. What's your score out of ten? For all of nine all of nine point So yeah I mean you gotta think of even nine point five and you know the beginning and the end. Okay, yeah well yeah what's yours? Yeah.

mung (12:54.469)
Ten

CaptainCoach (12:59.734)
I got mine. You want me to go first? Give it to Okay, so nine point was a ten out of ten. Because something like that will never be perfect. You know, they they I mean, the game was kinda in a balanced spot, but as far as making it fresh and and raising the ceiling, which I mean in hindsight, I don't even feel like it did, but it felt like it did at the time. I like you can't really fault the dev team for swinging big. So I like even though it wasn't perfect, the nine point hotfix

Coach Mills (13:23.57)
Right.

CaptainCoach (13:29.036)
That was a one out of ten. That was genuinely one of the worst possible changes. I I get why they did it. Maybe I'll give it a two out of ten because you know, they're saying, like, okay, we're like these support players are struggling, which they were, which is what the game needs. We need that band-aid to be ripped off and have everybody actually have the same level of responsibility and agency in a game, which unfortunately we're not really that's not really

realistic anymore, I feel like. I think we're kind of past that now with the season ten changes. And then nine point five, I'd say it's like a three or four. Like it just not enough changes, not really targeting what was OP. Now obviously ten got some of that stuff, but even ten not it not enough. So I mean it it was not in a good spot. And and we could we kinda predicted that. Like we kinda knew that that it was going to be that way. We all had a feeling that nine point five wasn't doing enough and and lo and behold here we are like begging

having for a good patch, having pat flats and l and light, have like duke it out, which I I'm curious to hear you guys' opinion on that too. We'll probably get to that. And yeah, then now now we're kinda in this spot where it's it's mixed feelings, you know? So

mung (14:31.585)
Well, for nine, I'm gonna be honest with you guys, some of you might disagree with me. I'm gonna say it was maybe like a a five out of ten. Now, let me give you my reasoning. The concept is cool. I like the new team ups in a lot of ways. Some of them are really awesome, but what they needed to do was they need to do maybe weekly hot fixes on some of these things instead of waiting so long to do balance. So

CaptainCoach (14:38.243)
Okay.

Coach Mills (14:52.848)
I agree. Yeah.

mung (14:53.269)
Just off of that, I can't give them anything higher than a five, right? Like think about that hotfix. When you looked at that hotfix for the supports, I couldn't believe it. Like they cried for what, twelve hours a day before they went there and they like patched for them? Like I thought that was a little bit too much.

CaptainCoach (15:06.488)
They they weren't even crying that much. I didn't even see that much. It was really.

Coach Mills (15:07.025)
Yeah.

mung (15:09.773)
I saw I saw a few people complaining, man. I had people even in my chat saying this is unplayable. Now I granted I think some of that was also because of BP and Silock when they released like that busted. So I don't know if there was like maybe just miscommunication, but I don't think that hotfix really needed to go through in the first place. That kinda ruined it because you had all these characters running around with busted team ups too that really did need to be tweaked. Like look at Magneto. Like that that team up should have been hotfixed immediately. like let's be real. Twelve seconds? Like it should have been like a thirty second one.

Gallus (15:25.826)
I mean yeah.

Coach Mills (15:33.235)
Immediately. Yeah. No, a hundred percent. The the Gambit too. Like the the the hey the the gambit change that they did in ten in in season ten where it does one boop, one one form of C C they could have done that from the beginning. Like what I don't understand why all these team ups are so fucking strong. What's the reason for it? Why are they insane? Like

Gallus (15:39.734)
That's what I've been saying, bro. Yeah.

mung (15:41.368)
Exactly.

mung (15:50.597)
Hundred percent.

Gallus (15:56.866)
The they i it's it's like whatever whatever reason for like it being good because it's new, just take it to the extreme. I think they treat they treat making something like th they they treat buffing something for no reason the same as they treat adding a new hero into the game. It's like, it's gonna get eyes on it. Look at the spectacle of it. I mean like the dopamine farm only goes so far, bro. It's been like two years. Like if you make something busted, it's like I've already played the most busted thing you could release seventeen times.

Coach Mills (16:15.964)
Ha.

CaptainCoach (16:23.128)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (16:23.244)
Ha ha ha.

Gallus (16:23.35)
Like I it's kinda just bouncing off me at this point, bro. Like I

CaptainCoach (16:25.774)
To me No, go for it. You're the guest. Go.

mung (16:27.563)
It comes down sorry, go for go first, man. Well listen listen, this is what it comes down to as well. It's also a money thing, right? Like that's why they don't do patches where it's only nerfs. Like realistically, this was a prime candidate for a nerf only patch.

Could have done it. It would have made the game all the all the more better for it. But realistically, a casual who loads in, if they do look at a passional, they don't like seeing only nerfs. They like the fantasy of imagining their character's gonna be buffed. They can turn they can l open up the passional. They see their character got f three extra damage on their primary. And they like that. They they think they're gonna slingshot to one above all. Maybe they buy more skins. That's kind of realistically what it is. It's a it's a financial incentive a little bit.

CaptainCoach (16:58.072)
Yeah.

CaptainCoach (17:04.576)
My my problem with the team ups, I agree with that, I agree with both of you, is that they made them too OP, kinda like Gallus was saying, and they're kind of now moving away from these cool hero identities that they had at the start for the sake of what like novelty or or or ex like just just new cause new. like I one that we've been using recently on the pod is the Star Lord seeds.

Is one I I really like to bring up because for me personally, I mean, obviously in its own little bubble of design, that's like a fun little mini game, right? You put little things on the ground. we've got to walk by it, walk by it. Like they're thinking in terms of like this is a game, this is a little a skill check that that is fun for players. And you know, s good Star Lords will just throw it right on you or whatever. But you look at it from the Star Lord, a Star Lord's point of view.

And and how does that fit at all with a hyper mobile, like flank aggressive, like slash diver hero? Like I I guess it does a little bit, but like to me, they it doesn't really emphasize what makes Star Lord Starlord. It it doesn't really emphasize what makes him cool. It's it's kind of something that another hero should have. Like AoE C C like that that to me is not a Star Lord thing. So we're we I feel like we've been losing a lot of our hero identity. Like Gambit, another one. I mean that that ability I think is cool, but yeah, like the bubble, like

Gan Gambit's whole thing was he was not good into dive. He actually had a weakness and and they're just I I I d I think it's just too random and it feels like, yeah, they're just kind of throwing darts at a wall, or they were. And and I think a lot of cool heroes are less cool now because of it.

Gallus (18:41.272)
Like yeah, I I think you can see that with a good few of them, basically because like my guess with how they worked on team ups at all is that they likely like I I'm just I'm just using I'm sorry, I'm gonna say it Overwatch as an example, but how how

Coach Mills (18:56.414)
you yeah, no the comments are gonna bro, everytime you can't say that no, you can't say that word. The comments are gonna lose the nope, nope no no, you fucked up. No hate comments.

CaptainCoach (18:58.903)
Ha ha ha.

Gallus (19:01.154)
No, I'm talking about how the d how the devs work. I'm talking about how the devs work. How that would make a hero is they have a sandbox. They use like a they use like Bucky as a template. And they just that's the hero model. And they use this to test and try out new heroes. And they have a box of 200 ability concepts. And they throw them onto a hero and they try different combi combinations to see how they work. And I do wonder if Netes has just like a just a box full of abilities that they haven't used.

basically. And the team-ups were a system to get some of them in the game and just cycle them in and out. and I I I have I I wonder if Star Lords is one of those that could have been put on you could put that ability on like half the cast. I think there I think there actually is an argument for putting it on him, but I'm only thinking about that now because I don't play the hero. Like well like if you if you put a minefield on the ground and people sort of have to navigate it.

CaptainCoach (19:37.91)
Mm.

Coach Mills (19:39.868)
I like

Coach Mills (19:43.772)
Right.

Coach Mills (19:47.859)
That's what I was about to say, yeah.

CaptainCoach (19:51.458)
Hmm. I'd be curious to hear it.

Gallus (20:00.406)
And he has this sort of like he can sort of be top top down like he can fly or use his alt. That means you can put an obstacle there to stop people getting to cover. Or you can make it trickier for them to get away or like c control an area as he uses his fucking spin bay blade thing. Like there's an argument for it.

CaptainCoach (20:10.99)
Mm.

Coach Mills (20:17.863)
Yep. I actually have more of a problem with the Adam one. I think the res one is extremely lazy, in my opinion. I hate any of the team ups that are like that, that are just it's value without skill. I'm I I personally. Value without counterplay, value without skill. I my to me it's I hate that more than anything. I do understand the hero design aspect of it though.

Gallus (20:35.992)
Well Yeah. Hold on. I feel like we're talking about this and I should give like my rating before I I have a response to that as well though. Bro, it's like a I I feel like nine point was like yeah, an eight to nine out of ten for me. I think that was I I think it's such a or like maybe ten. Like straight up, I think in terms of all the updates rivals could do, I think genuinely

Coach Mills (20:42.888)
yeah, yeah, yeah. Give me give me your rating. Give me your rating,

CaptainCoach (20:43.355)
yeah.

Gallus (21:00.886)
Especially when the game had its most appeal ever. I think the experience for rivals for a lot of people was getting into rivals. I think that's what was special about rivals for people. And it's the absolute novelty and everything's new experience and the game not being solved yet. And the team ops update is as close as you could get ever to doing that again. And I think that it was a really, really good idea from them, right? And

Because it was also power creep, I think it was way quicker to find what was super super broken. Which is why it needed a couple of steps in order for them to iterate and make it stick the landing, but they didn't do that. So I think really like their whole development cycle is I mean, something's changed this this time around, but it's new content. Like they release a hero every month, they want people coming back, they want to keep throwing shit at the wall and like jingling the keys or whatever you want to call it. But

that that was a hundred percent in line with that entire experience and I think that was what to be honest, w probably what the broader player base just wants. And when they don't help it stick the landing with hotfixes, I think they are like pulling the blocks out from the Jenga Tower underneath themselves. Like it that it was so cost effective for what they made, and they didn't help it go further.

Coach Mills (22:14.649)
Right.

Gallus (22:24.482)
You know, I feel like they were hijacking themselves by not balancing it because it was a massive burst of new content and we're not using half of the new content. It's sitting there waiting to be used and we can't use it because it sucks. Like

Coach Mills (22:38.435)
Wha why did they tell us they were gonna make active hotfixes and like they understood like they even said that. They said we understand that this is gonna change up the meta in a really dramatic way and that the team ups are gonna need to be balanced aggressively and then they didn't do that at all. They didn't hotfix anything else besides that one hotfix they did at the beginning of nine point They didn't target many team ups in nine point five and spoiler alert, even in season ten

They have not addressed any of the weaker team ups. Maybe they're afraid of power creep. If that's the case, then nerf all the stronger ones and bring them down to the weaker ones. One of them has to be picked, right? Do one of the two. Don't leave them alone. It feels like you're you you you present an amazing idea and then you just let the idea die and then I I mean I mean you I think everyone can like this this is an analogy people could relate to. Like imagine you come up with this idea for work, like this new idea.

And someone really hates it, but they begrudgingly accept your idea, but then they do everything they can to not support it, sabotage it, and then ultimately when it crashes and burns, they get to point at it and say, Look, your idea was shit. It's like, No, you let this idea fucking crash and burn. That's it feels like they're self sabotaging this great thing that they had. I mean, I I don't I don't I I can't understand why.

CaptainCoach (23:55.331)
No, I'm just saying, like, why did we nerf mantis? Like, why did we nerf mantis? Like, what are we doing? That was

Gallus (23:56.226)
I think it yeah. Sorry, you got cutch.

Coach Mills (24:00.229)
Okay.

mung (24:00.326)
I think we should buff buff cloak and dagger. I'm waiting for the rebound buffs on that hero. That's gonna be cinema in season ten point five.

Gallus (24:01.006)
Ha ha ha.

Coach Mills (24:05.095)
That was shit.

CaptainCoach (24:06.166)
Gallus (24:06.282)
Bro. Yeah, like I I think yeah, the it it's it's self-sabotage. I think it's good for their wallets. Like I think they make more money if they make this update land. Genuinely, because it's it's more like I mean in the same light, you know, if you make Mantis more versatile, then all the people who defend her no matter what can play her more, no matter what, and succeed more no matter what. Right? And if you're only using one of the team ups, like what's the fucking point? Like what was what are we doing? yeah.

CaptainCoach (24:34.156)
I'm not gonna say in the same light, in the same flats, I think this team up says it's actually gonna be pretty good, actually. Sorry, this very unbiased podcast, guys. Yeah, yeah.

Coach Mills (24:38.107)
Okay.

Care the king, care the king, care the king. Okay, okay. Jesus Christ. Okay. okay bef Okay go go on. Yeah, yeah, yeah, go on.

Gallus (24:44.716)
I hate you bro.

wait wait wait wait sorry. I'm interrupting, sorry. Only thing I want to say about that, unless you guys want to like talk about it now or later, is that for the whole team up system, I feel like yeah, the the the power creep is an entire extra topic that's a lot to go into. But I feel like the team ups should just all have some sort of drawback. And I think the game is losing sight of the fact that weaknesses make a hero interesting.

CaptainCoach (24:53.848)
Ha.

Coach Mills (24:59.645)
No, we can talk about it now.

mung (25:13.711)
Yeah.

Gallus (25:19.166)
And when they keep trying to round everything out, it really is just everyone everyone's trying to approach being this archetype of you you never die if you're a tank. You do so much damage it's like disgusting if you're a DPS, and absolutely nothing can die ever if you're a support. And where is the wiggle room in there for any unique design whatsoever? Like what is it? Like, you know, you g you got Gamp, Gambit's a great example, right?

Coach Mills (25:20.957)
Agreed.

Gallus (25:48.894)
Especially now with the with how they balanced his one team up and that's the only change he got. It's a cloak bubble. That's all it is. That is not the fantasy of Gambit whatsoever. And that not being that not being something that has its own weakness means that necessarily this is not going to be used in a creative way. Gambit is going to be less fun using this. Like you just use it. yeah, I'm just doing the

The heel botting stuff, that's why I picked up Gambit. Like, yeah, bro, that's why we wanted another character in the support roster. So they did exactly what C and D did. Like, that's not the point. Like, these heroes having weaknesses is something players want. They will never tell you, but that's the whole draw of this this format, you know? They don't want the feeling of hopelessness, but players like the advantages and disadvantages in this game. Like and this format of game.

CaptainCoach (26:39.544)
They and and they feel wanted, right? They've you feel useful. You're like, hey, I can do this thing that our support who's complaining about, or or our tank just like, I can't reach that guy up there. Well, now you being the whatever, we'll go back to Star Lord as an example, get to go up and get You know, that that's your job. And now you're really good at a thing that your team needs you to do. It's the kind of the whole idea of making things different. You know, when you give throw out like some random AoE route to a hero that's based on mobility and and

you know, doing these cool plays, right, y you kinda have to take away from that identity if you want to make that strong, right? So and that's kind of the whole point is like you can't be good at everything or else no one's good at anything. You know?

Gallus (27:20.514)
Yep, you you can't baby proof everything because then it doesn't matter if you can not hit your head on the counter. You know, like like it's a it's a it's a dumb example, but it's like that's a skill. That's a skill, bro. Like why does it why does it feel good to hit that headshot? Because you can miss it. Because you can miss the headshot. Like

CaptainCoach (27:27.926)
Right. Right. Yeah.

Coach Mills (27:28.359)
Yeah. Yeah. No, but it's it's true. It's true. That's you can't you can't exactly

CaptainCoach (27:37.934)
'Cause my father never loved me. sorry. I'm on one today, boys.

Coach Mills (27:40.237)
Okay.

Gallus (27:44.046)
my fucking god.

mung (27:45.902)
I mean we we know why they make these characters busted though. Like is it is for the gold, for the plat, for the diamond. Like they make them low-hanging fruit abilities, low-hanging fruit characters, because they want them to feel the power fantasy. Let's be honest, some of these people, they aren't especially very skilled, and that's fine. There's no problem with that. But the what what we're advocating for, it it's right, but I don't think they're just they're not gonna do it. If they wanted to do it, they could. They could do patch notes, hot fixes on these abilities every week and get them to a point where they're balanced.

Where they're fun to play against, where it's fair, but they haven't done it. I don't think they're gonna I mean, like realistically, I think they also have a content scheduling problem too. Like, think about all the stuff that's really happening regarding Marvel too. They got Doomsday coming out. I mean we know Dooms coming in season eleven. That's like everybody knows that. And I've heard some crazy things. It's gonna be cra it's gonna be cinema, but I've heard that it's maybe two Dooms, unironically, so you know, they probably got a lot of stuff on their table as well, so

Gallus (28:27.576)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (28:31.347)
It's gonna be fucking cinema though.

CaptainCoach (28:37.736)
Ooh. That's crazy.

Gallus (28:38.072)
That'd be sick. That'd be so sick.

I mean like I'd I'd accept them like releasing less if Doom was just like is such a phenomenal release as well. Like

Coach Mills (28:48.123)
I mean, speaking of releasing less, season ten, first season with only one hero. What do you all think about that? That is

mung (28:48.942)
I have hope.

mung (28:54.501)
Think that's good. I think it's time.

CaptainCoach (28:56.138)
I I agree. I'm that's that's there's a couple, there's like three or four good things in this patch I think are just objective like that they exactly what they need. That's one of them. Is is just to slow down the balance, get make it a little easier on yourself. We know you're not perfect. We also know your goals may not necessarily align with us all the time. So now I'm hoping moving forward, n there no more excuses, you know?

Coach Mills (28:57.075)
Think it was about time, right?

Coach Mills (29:19.923)
Right, like ten point five better be fucking b a banger. You know what I'm saying? Like I mean I mean it better be a fucking banger. Yeah, yeah, it's I mean I mean i one hero every month is just fucking ridiculous. I mean everyone I mean we we understand that coming from game who sh shall not be named, but just like any game really, like the release of heroes is just typically so much slower, like unbelievably slower.

CaptainCoach (29:26.686)
Yeah. Where's my content?

CaptainCoach (29:48.509)
Gallus (29:48.536)
Yeah. it it's it's it's funny that there's so much I could say there. Like it's so weird that I'm saying it again. I'm saying it again, Overwatch. But these games content cycles they're they're their content cycles are doing this, they're becoming the same fucking thing, bro. Like they're basically fucking the on the on the whole hero releases thing, my theory was actually that they had a team A and a team B.

CaptainCoach (29:58.351)
Strike two.

Coach Mills (30:00.647)
Double the hate comments! Double the hate comments!

Gallus (30:15.892)
And team A would work on a hero for two months, and team B would work on another hero in the in the other like two months and they'd just alternate. because I feel like the same team the team that made White Fox was not the team that made like Black Cat. You know? White Fox had like four abilities, black cat had like four hundred. And one of them was a lot more refined and had drawbacks, and black cat kind of just did everything. And similarly, I don't know if the same people who have a hand in balance

Coach Mills (30:34.877)
Yeah.

CaptainCoach (30:35.734)
Mm-hmm.

Gallus (30:45.848)
have as much of a hand in the actual designer heroes. Because I think that the way that they balance things kind of erodes or cheapens their own art. Like I think White Fox is the best example of that for me because I think she was really she was a standout in all the releases for the past little while. She had drawbacks. You had to be a good White Fox to be a good White Fox. you had to use her ult well to use her ult well.

And now it's this Luna Snow Alt Gambit Alt hybrid that fixes everything. There's nothing interesting about it to me. It was the Hulk alt of supports and it's just you know, it's a it's another save everything button instead. Yeah.

mung (31:22.947)
Yeah, I think they probably do have multiple teams. I mean, they're gonna go back to two hero releases or like f per they're gonna go back to one hero per season or l pro every point five or whatever you call it. They said that in the video. I think what they're doing is they're slowing it down right now because when Doomsday comes, they have a big patch planned. Like I've heard some things that's kinda crazy and I think it's gonna be really like it's gonna that's actually the real make or break. I mean I c I can say can I am I allowed to say it? I can say a couple of things if you guys want.

Coach Mills (31:43.931)
Any leaks? Leaks? Leaks?

CaptainCoach (31:46.37)
Mmung

Coach Mills (31:49.519)
I don't if it's ac if it's real leaks, probably not. I don't d I don't I don't think Okay, okay.

CaptainCoach (31:50.007)
That's a

mung (31:52.747)
I mean, I don't have I don't have a like, you know, listen, all I know is that it's two dooms. That's all I could say. All right.

CaptainCoach (31:53.28)
huh.

Tal tal talk about your your leakers though, because I like do you have people that you know from like how do you how do you have contacts that even have this kind of info? Like with with

Gallus (32:05.644)
It's just Guangguang. Okay.

mung (32:06.021)
I mean I don't w I don't wanna say too much. I don't wanna say too much, bad.

Coach Mills (32:07.419)
He can't even say that. No. No, it's okay. No, it's okay. We let's let's let's move on. Let's move on. Let's move on. Okay, wait, but wait. okay. So the last thing I want to talk about is Gore before I I know it's just initial repressions. I wanna talk about Gore the God Butcher. How do y'all feel about the character overall for first impressions? What do you think?

CaptainCoach (32:09.714)
Alright, alright, that's fine. But bl but he's like blackmail. Okay, well there we go.

Gallus (32:14.453)
Yeah.

mung (32:14.627)
Yeah, blackmail. No, yeah, yeah. No that that but unironically.

CaptainCoach (32:34.427)
that's my new main.

Gallus (32:36.302)
Damn it.

CaptainCoach (32:37.474)
No, I'm serious. I'm serious. I'm not just being funny. Like that is could I can I give let's go

Gallus (32:41.624)
He's also my new main. Yeah, yeah.

Coach Mills (32:43.185)
Needs my new main as well. okay.

mung (32:46.201)
May or may not be locking him first day. We're gonna have to see. I mean, I think he looks cool. I I I don't know how good he's gonna be from what I I haven't seen the previews yet. I know they're out. I I just haven't got the chance to see it. I've heard people saying that he looks very strong. And there's a good ch like I I heard that his primary fire looks actually really good. Like he does a surprising amount of damage. He could be busted. I mean, I I saw him peeking at like what 500 HP. Like I don't know. Could be could be extremely busted.

CaptainCoach (32:49.61)
I changed

Coach Mills (32:57.897)
Gallus (33:11.448)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (33:11.665)
Yeah, it's crazy. A lot of I I saw here, I I saw the comments, I saw the DPS player saying if you're not a DPS main, don't lock gore. And here's here's what I'll say to you. Here's what I say to you. As as a tank player, that's gonna lock gore. If your reaction time is not fast enough to lock that motherfucker over me, you would be ass on the character anyways. So it's fine. It's fine. It's my character. I'm sorry. yeah, yeah. Well, hey, at least they're at least they're dedicated.

CaptainCoach (33:18.782)
What?

Gallus (33:19.79)
That happens every season, bro.

CaptainCoach (33:28.216)
True. It

mung (33:28.857)
True.

Gallus (33:30.638)
It might be true though, I feel like a lot of DPS used configs. A lot of DPS players use combo. Yeah, they're but their PC can't handle loading into the game.

mung (33:32.069)
It's a truth nuke. my God. my God. Don't get me started.

CaptainCoach (33:34.293)
Coach Mills (33:38.543)
It at least they're dedicated. Dedicated to get the gore, right? Like I want you to be dedicated. I want you to be a no-life. I want you to have fast reaction time. That's what I want every one of my DPS players to have. Those three things.

CaptainCoach (33:40.887)
Yeah.

CaptainCoach (33:50.466)
Yeah. Doing the

mung (33:50.946)
Are are we allowed to like go on on tangents here? Because you said config, right? my god, man. These configs have have been so out of control for so long. It's embarrassing. We have people selling configs. That's crazy to me that that's even allowed in this game in the first place. And then they're going on Twitter crying, acting like victims when they get patched out. Of course they're gonna get patched out. You guys are sitting there making the game look like Roblox, no fog, no screen shake.

Coach Mills (33:54.603)
quick yeah yeah Are you say

CaptainCoach (33:56.587)
Yeah, yeah, go for it.

Gallus (33:57.005)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (34:06.547)
What the fuck?

Coach Mills (34:16.848)
Yeah.

CaptainCoach (34:17.228)
Ha ha ha ha.

mung (34:18.905)
Should be embarrassed with yourselves. That's cheating. You're cheating in the game. Taking screen shake away from some of these characters is egregious, man. I just have to say that. You know who you guys are.

CaptainCoach (34:26.804)
I it's funny you bring that up because every time I see someone's like loadout of of like what the maps look like, it looks so bad that I can't even like summon the energy to get mad like you are, because I just feel sorry for them. I'm like, this doesn't even look fun. This doesn't even look fun. Yeah.

Coach Mills (34:38.991)
Absolutely.

mung (34:42.189)
It's just sad to me. I it's but it's it's the this hard cheating though. Like if I'm on Kunlund where I'm behind the thing with the fog, if I'm being shot through that, what it like what is that? You're cheating, man. You should be banned. These guys got hit with the ban wave.

Coach Mills (34:43.645)
See I

Gallus (34:49.912)
Ha ha

Coach Mills (34:50.819)
Ha ha ha.

CaptainCoach (34:52.205)
Yeah.

Gallus (34:53.908)
I didn't I didn't realize that was possible on that map. That's so stupid.

Coach Mills (34:55.891)
yeah, no. You just can't you ca the smoke you might as well not exist.

CaptainCoach (34:57.558)
It it it it it it hides flags, like banners that hang, it hides like tree leaves. It's it's total cheated. Like I totally agree.

mung (34:58.053)
They yeah, it's just ridiculous.

mung (35:05.805)
Yeah, well if you take screenshake away from deep from tank pool or or any of some of these hit scan, it's come on, this like the difference is massive.

Coach Mills (35:06.323)
So like he

Coach Mills (35:13.605)
So my my I might have a different take than some of y'all. So I think that these like the configs that give you like an advantage like that, like looking through shit is bullshit. Yeah, no, I love it. It's but it's broken. The dedicated. No, I I I the w the people that use configs because their PC can literally not run the game. Like, I don't I'm not gonna judge these people because like I'm privileged enough to have like a nice PC. Like I don't need that. Really, netties should just

Gallus (35:21.144)
gonna be like, Yeah, I love that shit. Keep that in the game.

mung (35:22.681)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (35:39.943)
Fucking optimize their game. Like it's on them to make it so the game actually runs and functions so people don't feel the need to use configs to play the game. At the same time though, any of these configs that actually give you an advantage over a normal player and like there's a lot of people that use configs despite having a good PC just because they want the advantages. Like you're just a cheater. You should get permaband forever. Like, I mean, it is what it is.

mung (36:02.061)
Yeah, I agree.

CaptainCoach (36:02.624)
I don't care if you're broke and can't afford a PC. Fuck you. Fuck you. Broke cheaters are still cheaters. Okay?

Coach Mills (36:05.459)
I can't yeah.

Gallus (36:05.865)
Ha ha ha.

mung (36:10.689)
I mean, realistically, you have these people making these configs.

Coach Mills (36:10.897)
Right. I don't care, little boy. I don't care you're an orphan. You better not take my fucking bread. That's my bread. Get the fuck out of here Like the fucking Ofram boy trying to take an apple from your fucking stand. You're like, no, get the fuck out of here, bitch. What's a thief, always the thief. Okay, alright. It's alright. any any other any other thoughts about gore?

CaptainCoach (36:13.046)
Ha ha ha.

CaptainCoach (36:16.75)
Yeah Fluck orphans

mung (36:28.802)
Share that.

CaptainCoach (36:36.014)
Gotta have an easier screw, you

Gallus (36:38.242)
CaptainCoach (36:40.46)
Yes. Okay, I wanted to I wanted to talk about Gore. So when the season ten notes came out, which, you know, I keep, you know, bringing those up. We'll get to those. I made a post saying that I didn't like them and that they were bad for the game. And then at the same time I said I was gonna main gore and then I changed my ex account name to Cap the Coach Butcher. So that's that's a

Coach Mills (37:01.363)
Okay, what the fuck? That's actually good. That's actually good. That's good, that's good. what the fuck Yeah butchering coaches everywhere. What the fuck?

CaptainCoach (37:04.884)
I'm f I'm full committing, dude. So Mills, you're getting butchered. Agore's mine when we play. no, just a little, just a little about me. when I was pushing rating in other games, I made pet classes in back in WoW when I was at one point the rank one death knight, which was a pet it was pet-based. That was like why Death Knights were good too, is this I had a really strong pet. So I love pet classes. I played Hunter back in the original WoW.

Gallus (37:31.192)
Mm.

CaptainCoach (37:33.561)
And then in league I I played a hero called York and actually jungled with him, which I was the only person ever like who did that. So I to me, I really like I pet classes are right up my alley. Like I love pet classes. And then Factoring Gore is like already one of my favorite Marvel heroes, new to the IP, but I will be playing this guy a lot. I I I really think he and I love stance based pe people. It looks like he has like weapon swap mechanic that he can swap between like different modes. I I he's going to be my new yeah, if not number one, my new number two. Like I

'cause Hulk is

Coach Mills (38:03.783)
That's gonna be it's gonna be actually fun watching you like play like try hard on a different character. That's gonna be cool. Spoiler alert Okay, okay. Let's let's let's start let I know this is gonna take a while, so let's let's already get into it. break this down so we don't have another the so so it's it's actually been funny. We've been doing two like we for in the beginning we did like an hour pod and we're like everyone was like push it further, make it longer. We did two hours, and like still not long enough.

CaptainCoach (38:07.64)
Thanks, man. Yeah, Hulk's Hulk's found dead in a ditch somewhere right now. We we don't we we don't we don't talk about Hulk.

Gallus (38:08.546)
Yeah, yeah.

mung (38:11.161)
It's it's actually tragic.

Coach Mills (38:32.347)
Stop cutting it off. We did three hours. They're like, let's go. It's it's it's great. Then we did a four hour pod and everyone's like, I'm too employed for this shit. Whoa. I I didn't realize the cutoff is three hours. We could ik our pods can be a movie, but it can't be a T V show or they're fucking okay. Yeah, yeah. so okay. The very first thing that we have to talk about is the strategist change. So

CaptainCoach (38:38.626)
Whoa.

Gallus (38:39.574)
Until well Mobbed.

CaptainCoach (38:47.178)
And I it turns out

Gallus (38:48.61)
Yeah. If you're employed, get the fuck out.

mung (38:52.485)
Legit.

Coach Mills (39:00.945)
Healing to energy conversion from 70% to 65%. Remember, in the hotfix patch, it was 60%. before pre-hotfix in 9.0. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's it's it's in the midway point. But then they also did the damage to energy conversion from 55% to 50%. What are your thoughts about this? Gallus, I want you to go first. What's your opinion on this change?

CaptainCoach (39:10.07)
It was sixty to seventy, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Gallus (39:26.23)
I could just edit chip. well

CaptainCoach (39:28.878)
I

Coach Mills (39:30.459)
He ate a he grabbed a chip and eat it. Do you know that never mind, sorry. Do you know Let's go

Gallus (39:33.09)
Okay.

look, I know they they had their reasons they had their reasons for it, but I've seen enough optics changes at this point to not take them at their word. the first time they did it in season seven, why did you treat strategists differently to the other roles? Why did you do that? Make that sixty percent healing to energy conversion. Make it sixty percent. They did the most, they did the most like people didn't like that? Okay, we'll walk it back 50%. No, undo it. Undo the hotfix.

mung (39:36.261)
Understand that reference.

Coach Mills (39:53.763)
shit, he said fuck home.

Gallus (40:05.388)
Now, you can make the argument for whatever, what whatever you want to say, but you know, people aren't dying. We're currently playing a game that has a three and a half minute long time to kill. Okay, something needs to change. And I don't think a 5% nerf. And if you scroll down, half the strategist roster, compensation buffs to their healing numbers to make this a net neutral or actually a net positive change for their alt build rate when healing. Right? The only argument I can make for the second one is that.

CaptainCoach (40:28.425)
Yep.

Gallus (40:34.186)
Maybe the strategists that just deal more damage like Ultron, it actually nerfs triple support directly. My argument against that is just change the alt build rate on those specific heroes instead. All right. I want you to incentivize strategists to get something out of dealing damage, right?

CaptainCoach (40:51.106)
D Gallus, don't overthink the second part. They think you're stupid. That that's what it is. I don't overthink it. You're cooking, bro.

Gallus (40:55.374)
Well yeah they do bro. I was I was reading this last night. I was like, do they think I can't read? I I scroll up, I read that, I scroll down, I read the healing buffs. I'm like, what what did you nerf? What did you nerf?

CaptainCoach (41:06.7)
Yeah. They think five percent plus five percent equal ten percent. everything's okay. It's like, no, I'm so glad you went first because I I wanted my opinions like validated because I know if Gallus thinks it, it's probably trycause this is a bullshit change. This is bullshit. This is total like healers obviously do more healing than damage. So you're you're not bringing them down to everybody else's level. You are bringing them down a little bit, but still better than everybody else. Sorry.

Sorry. And it's just like, what are we doing? They already generate their alts faster. Even at sixty they would.

Gallus (41:35.938)
Yep, yep. Also. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. Exactly, right? And also, I hate the sister the structure of incentive that exists in these two changes, right? If you have someone who's going out and dealing damage on SUP, what they're doing is they're building support alts at a rate of fifty percent and they're feeding support alts at a rate of sixty five percent to anyone they damage that is getting healed by the other team. Right? They're making it worse.

CaptainCoach (41:58.605)
Right.

Coach Mills (42:00.008)
That's true. I mean that's been true, but yeah.

CaptainCoach (42:01.293)
Yeah.

Gallus (42:03.404)
Yeah, they're making it worse every time they reinforce this, at like this is why it shouldn't exist, to to deal damage and do something proactive, right? The incentive exists there for you to sit back and be a victim. Hence, like it's not just in this system, but hence the need for I need a button to save myself, right? Because not only through the incentives in the game, but like teaching players over time, you are teaching them not to fight back over time and just be a resource pool and just heal everything.

Like this is not like players are gonna have these frustrations because you never guide them or make them feel like they're in the flow state by fighting back in a PvP game.

CaptainCoach (42:43.17)
Pe people don't think this change matters. The people think this is a good change. Let me let me let me tell you. This change matters and it matters a lot. And and this is why I've this change right here mean I I've lost goodwill. I've lost goodwill with Netties. I'm I've I've come like full just like what are we w what did Meng say? Black pill? Like I I am done with this this

Coach Mills (42:59.667)
So so so real quick, I'm gonna let I'm gonna let Mung go in a second. Cause I I actually I kinda disagree pretty hard with both you both of y'all. well I I do agree with the the thing you're saying about the difference between healing and damage. Like I think that, you know, healing is more incentivized, but it's always been that way. I I don't I cannot criticize them over a good change. This is good. This is objectively better than it was before. Like it's not enough, but you gotta understand that

CaptainCoach (43:09.514)
Okay.

Gallus (43:10.702)
You're going, yeah.

Coach Mills (43:28.849)
When this was at 60%, triple support, like pre-hot fix patch. I mean, you played on it. Triple support was basically unplayable. A lot of supports were free-falling. I think it's reasonable for them to f to try the middle ground. I think that that is reasonable. If they thought that the 60% was extreme, you could say, hey, let's just revert it back to 60. But so far they've tried it at 70 and it's ass. They've tried it at 60 and

Internally or otherwise, they found a problem. Now you might not agree that that's a problem, but they obviously do have data that says that hey, this shit's a problem. So they're trying the middle point. And so that's my that to me, I think that this is gonna matter a lot more than people think. Because because everyone said when when I remember when everyone was reading the patch notes originally and they saw it from 70 to 60 percent and they said this shit's not gonna matter, and it instantly did matter. So I think that this is gonna matter. I think this is actually important, and y'all do talk about

Gallus (44:05.688)
Look, that's fair.

CaptainCoach (44:06.669)
Mills.

Coach Mills (44:27.089)
Some supports getting buffs. A lot of them didn't. A lot of them didn't get buffs. Some important ones didn't get buffs. And so we'll we'll talk about those when we get there. I think that this is an objectively good change. I think characters like Gambit are gonna get ultimate really slow. I think characters like Mantis are gonna get ultimate a lot slower. I think characters like Cloak and Dagger are getting ultimates a lot slower. I think it's a big deal. Like this is a noticeably big deal. It is a nerf to every support at the same time, even if it's not a massive one. Like you could also th it like think about this change like

Gallus (44:31.458)
Yeah, sure.

Coach Mills (44:55.065)
Every ultimate goes up from forty one hundred to forty four hundred cost or something like that. Like it's very similar to that that being done. And if that was on the page for every support, y'all would probably be like, Hey, cool. That's literally what they did.

mung (45:07.781)
I actually I I I like your point and you're right in a lot of ways, but I think I think they should have retried 60. I wanna see how how the supports would have kind of coped with it now because you gotta understand they did that at the start of all these team-ups being brought out. People didn't really understand what was going on fully. I think 60 would be a lot more reasonable right now, or what they could have done was maybe I don't know. See this this is tough. There's so many different variables. I think just the sustain overall is too much as well. Like

If you've if you're playing some of these games, it's really you can't kill people, man, half the time. Like you just have dyno and thing. It's just a problem. So I think this is a step in the right direction, but they shouldn't have buffed the the healing on some of these supports either. I think it should have just been like maybe the healing number nerfs.

CaptainCoach (45:54.317)
Yep. I I would have gone with reduce seventy healing to sixty and fuck it. Go from buff the damage. Go from fifty five to f to sixty on the dim. So it's sixty sixty. That

Coach Mills (46:03.699)
So I think that they would I think they're st they would be worried about triple. That's what I would argue is that they're worried about when Mantis and Ultron are mainly getting their ult charge through damage dealing, I think it's a little scary to give them more incentive to shoot things.

mung (46:03.981)
You could have done something like that, yeah.

mung (46:08.825)
Yeah, there probably would be.

Gallus (46:14.892)
Right, but at the same time you you you can say like I I I I can't remember who said it earlier. That might have been you, Mills, that putting it to sixty would've killed triple sup for the healing energy conversion.

Coach Mills (46:26.471)
Yeah. Yeah, I would. Unless you unless you up the damage. If you up the damage, then it'd be different. I mean you have to build real triple subs. You can't build like fucking Luna Cloak Invis triple subs. You to build like Adam Mantis Ultron pit triple subs, but if they up the damage, triple sub isn't dead. It's just some of them are, in my opinion.

CaptainCoach (46:39.576)
See, I

CaptainCoach (46:43.848)
I I don't agree with that. And and a lot of people were talking about on 9.0, like the day it released, said it's like, you can't run triple because the game's too fast and you just don't get your alts fast enough. Everybody's dying. And I remember thinking about that and I'm like, is triple support really bad or have people just not figured out how to play it yet? Yeah, it wasn't because the the the the reason triple support is so good.

Gallus (46:44.067)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (47:04.836)
so you d you don't think it was actually dead. I see what you're saying.

CaptainCoach (47:13.674)
Isn't because you have more healing all the time. It's because you have more healing when you need it. And then you have more damage still when you need it because all the healers do damage. So it to me, better cooldowns, better alts, right? So right. So it to me hundred percent.

Coach Mills (47:26.321)
Better cooldowns too. They have a lot better cooldowns. I agree with all that. Their data's probably flawed. Like a hundred percent. They own they only got one day of data and it was early. Like I agree with all those things. I mean I I'm gonna criticize them in the same way there. I but but I'm I'm just I'm just trying to understand I like I understand why they did this change. I'm not saying that it's like my ideal change. Cause my I my ideal change would have been

Gallus (47:36.76)
Well that's the that's the thing. I it's it's like their if you apply their rationale for not making serious changes.

CaptainCoach (47:37.773)
So

mung (47:40.961)
You you know what the only problem would be

CaptainCoach (47:50.06)
Yeah. Because they want support to be better than everything else. That's why. That's why they made it.

Coach Mills (47:55.461)
I i my ideal change would have been all ult charge from tanks, DPS and supports is down by like twenty-five percent. Like everything reduced by twenty five. That would be my ideal change. and then like all team up cooldowns increase by like fucking five seconds. That like

Gallus (48:10.636)
Yeah, somet something something I sort of w like wanna add in there is like shout out, trust me. I don't know if you guys saw his document he posted. yeah, you saw that he posted a document, but to to see the document is another thing, bro. It's it's wordy. It's a fucking lot. It's either like the most boring thing you've seen in your life or it's a fucking page turner.

Coach Mills (48:19.395)
I saw that he posted a document. I it it was a fi it's a fifty page document, right? yeah, I mean I I I I I know what people feel like when they saw our four hour podcast. I get it, 'cause i I felt it right there. I was like, I'm not reading that either.

CaptainCoach (48:22.912)
Me too.

mung (48:25.613)
Mm.

CaptainCoach (48:29.72)
It's

CaptainCoach (48:36.928)
It it's a thirty Yeah, it's a thirty page document with like twenty seven pages of sources.

Coach Mills (48:42.919)
That's insane, bro.

Gallus (48:43.474)
yeah. it's it speaks from his perspective as a pro, etcetera, etc., but it describes very well and comprehensively the web of problems that necessitate things like support alt build rate, the amount of sustain, the amount of damage in the game, the amount of CC in the game, and they all sort of keep each other together in this problematic web where you kinda and you see it a bit ev every patch, that th that the problem just gets kicked to the next system that's a problem, and we just keep in this this circle that stops a lot of things changing.

Coach Mills (48:52.337)
He he needs

Gallus (49:12.16)
And I I absolutely see the argument for look look, I think it's fair what you've said, Mills, about the the old change. Even though I would like my take on it was like Super Doomer or whatever. Like, yes, hamster on the wheel. But but like

Coach Mills (49:20.147)
Hello? What it what is going on? What wait hello? Wait. you're sharing. Okay. I was like, what the fuck happened to me, bro? I thought I thought it was an ad. Like I thought I got added. I was like, where's an ad? I got holy shit.

CaptainCoach (49:24.79)
Yeah, yeah. Wet this is the web right here. Yeah, yeah, sorry. My bad.

mung (49:25.454)
Whoa, do we just get

mung (49:30.094)
okay. I was gonna say we got infiltrated. Over.

Gallus (49:30.254)
Yeah, yeah. Who the fuck did that? Yeah, but I I don't see them moving in a in a positive direction to rectify that that overall issue either, in my opinion. And really what happens when you nerf ult charges ult charge in this way is that it simply extends the time that people wait for ults and doesn't doesn't change the necessity

and reliance upon them. And that's really the point.

CaptainCoach (50:01.902)
Yeah, I like that.

mung (50:01.955)
And yeah, I wanna add one thing, Coach. You said like maybe buff the damage to energy conversion rate. You know what the problem with that would be? You're just gonna see the most soulless triple support comps, actually. You'll see Mantis Ultron Adam. And that's like that's the death rattle of comp. You never wanna see those, man. That's like it's the end of times type of shit. Like that's the problem if you buff that.

Coach Mills (50:17.906)
Ha ha

Coach Mills (50:21.494)
Holy shit.

CaptainCoach (50:23.478)
My I I get your critique. I agree with your critique, but my problem with looking at games in in terms of like always comps and meta rather than just individual power level is something like you described, having s like some comp be really good. Well you can just nerf the heroes in that comp. Because I as l Cause yeah, you're right. Like to me, when you make that fifty five go to sixty and then make it go down by ten, technically, like if you want to say like how much percentage was lost, they're actually still

They're actually gaining it relative to the change they made. But to me, the nerf to healing is so much more impactful for the broken parts about healers, but also the bad healers. So I it to me it's like, I'm okay with that. Hey, like like at least

Coach Mills (51:09.765)
Okay. May make people get aggressive pat make people hit the shot on Adam. Right. I see what you're saying. I I got you. I I understand.

CaptainCoach (51:15.051)
Yeah, I

Gallus (51:15.416)
Yeah. Like Adam's about hitting shots.

mung (51:15.833)
Yeah. I mean, I I agree, but they just they've never shown doing that though.

Coach Mills (51:19.837)
I still Yeah. It it it would definitely it

CaptainCoach (51:20.962)
Well, like I say, ha hamster wheel. They want you to be seal button most of the most of the time. They don't want you to they don't want you to think too much. I really like your point by the way, Gallus, when you said like, yeah, players will adapt. They'll they'll know that 'cause like when people were talking about I I was saying the Mantis nerfs we'll get to those that they hit hard, but they're not gonna hit as hard as people think in the higher ranks. Like this is gonna be more of a lower rank change.

mung (51:25.38)
Unfortunately.

CaptainCoach (51:43.949)
Because the good Mantis players are just gonna go for more headshots to farm more leaves. So they'll play a more aggressive style, it'll be a little bit more risky and it'll get punished more. It's like, hey, that's what we wanted. Right. But like low Yeah. So it's like I think the Mantis actually got good nerfs. But when when you do it in a way that disencourages these brainless playstyles and that you don't really have any other options, that's when I think we have a serious issue, which is why I was so upset about the this change, Mills. But I I I appreciate your take. Like I feel like

Gallus (51:51.736)
Yep. That's what you want, yeah.

CaptainCoach (52:12.404)
I'm going rogue and you're trying to pull me into the light. Like I'm I'm I'm not gone yet.

Coach Mills (52:14.611)
I know I I I h here's the thing. My expectations for these patch notes is so on the fucking floor that I did not think they were gonna do one of these. Like like I thought they were not gonna do a global change. I I I was expecting no s alt charge nerf. And so from that point of view, this is good, you know? Yeah, I I I expected nothing and they gave me a piece of moldy bread, but like it's better than nothing. Like I'm not gonna starve, right? so anyways, let's

CaptainCoach (52:23.194)
Yeah.

I was expecting this.

Gallus (52:29.178)
Expecting this.

Gallus (52:42.942)
Yeah, yeah, you can say it's objectively good or whatever, but if they just did something that was objectively twice as bad.

CaptainCoach (52:43.704)
Mm-hmm.

Coach Mills (52:44.323)
Hey.

no not objectively, subjectively. Remember? We stand with flats. We stand with Okay Okay, sorry. Okay I sat I slick Okay sorry. I just sat the key range baby

CaptainCoach (52:49.944)
Good point. Well see h here's Okay. Well c

Gallus (52:50.83)
Stop! No!

I can't do it anymore, bro. Fucking

CaptainCoach (52:58.988)
This is I want to say one more thing. I wanna I wanna say one more thing. If they came in with a change like this, which I would say is not tone dev, right? It shows they've been somewhat listening and they refer to their their data, right? In the the dev vision, which you know, Mills still will not accept that they they use a ton of data for their balancing. this to me shows that they know what

the community ones, but are kind of just unwilling to really give it to us because their data says otherwise. So it's like this is them just kind of keeping us on the the hamster wheel, not so much in the game, but through the the EOM logic balance patches. Like they're they're they're

Gallus (53:33.132)
Bro, they know.

Gallus (53:46.19)
Yeah, well h how long ago was it when they made that patch note where there's they were like, see, we do buff Luna. Like they know, bro. Like they know, and and and there was that I I don't know if it was actually a rivals comic or if it was just a Marvel comic where they canonized rivals as a game and there was a joke about them still not nerfing Gambit. Like they fucking know, right? It's whether or not they act on it.

mung (53:47.481)
God

CaptainCoach (53:51.495)
Yeah. They know what they're doing. that was a good

Coach Mills (53:52.211)
Ha ha ha.

CaptainCoach (54:04.173)
Right.

CaptainCoach (54:07.704)
To me, my favorite thing about these balance changes now is trying to, you know, kind of see the bigger picture of netties in and you know like how they run rivals as a company because it's it's so fascinating to me. Cause they're they're basically gambling with our our goodwill. They are. They are. That's what they're doing. That's what they're doing. It it's fascinating. Yeah. That's all I wanted to say.

Coach Mills (54:23.987)
Okay. Yeah, that's I mean it's kinda true, but But it's funny it's funny this out like I I if you think about it hard enough, everything in life is gambling. You know what I'm saying? Okay, anyway, sorry. All right, yeah, all right, all right. Angela. Okay, so they made it so that the team up with Loki, the maximum damage the illusions can take is a hundred less. So you can you can break these motherfuckers, I guess. I mean

Gallus (54:25.244)
yeah.

mung (54:26.029)
They are though. No, they are. He's not wrong.

Gallus (54:36.62)
True. True. You should treat it like that actually.

Coach Mills (54:52.123)
It's just like a non I mean, it's almost a non change. Like it's very marginal. But like you know, like if if Captain Coach is getting pulled off the edge, I can bop by it at as Bucky, you know, before I'm bah bah bah bah he's dead. You know, like I can't I couldn't save him, you know. It's it's probably better. I think this team up was really is really strong still and it was very strong before. I mean it's like it's fine.

Gallus (54:52.502)
Yeah.

Gallus (55:10.902)
Yeah. Yeah, I think it's just a minor change. It's like to to me when I see that I'm like, okay, who does this actually affect? Like who can break it at that stage? And and it's like maybe a bit of extra focus fire from the back line will do it across a variety of heroes, but I think the main thing is like poke heroes can break it. And I think that's about it.

Coach Mills (55:19.738)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

CaptainCoach (55:20.855)
Yeah.

CaptainCoach (55:29.626)
Well the the thing is too though, she stealths when she uses it briefly. So I haven't really ever seen an Angela do this, but I'm sure if, you know, it's in the game long enough they'll eventually try is is using it to kinda hide behind it so you can live for a little bit and use it as a shield. But that I I don't think is really too important. I think this is more directed at lower ranks and lower rank players are just hitting the the clone and not realizing it. So now they

Gallus (55:45.206)
Mm.

CaptainCoach (55:57.379)
won't realize it as long 'cause it'll be like, I killed it. wait, you know. So

Gallus (56:01.558)
I w I will say with this and like other changes in the patch is that I think they they made some buffs to Namor. So for like lower ranks this might this might affect that as well. But also Gore coming into the game with summons as well. Like might might that might have an impact on this too, but

mung (56:01.688)
I think this is

CaptainCoach (56:08.877)
Hm.

Coach Mills (56:09.043)
Spoiler.

Coach Mills (56:18.909)
Mm-hmm.

mung (56:19.077)
I mean, I think this is just better for the game in the future. Like when we're inevitably out of like a certain meta. I'm not gonna spoil anything for the patch notes, but down the line where if Angela's like really good, if Angela's really good down the line, I think it's better. Like yeah, like Mills said, if you're pulling someone off the map, you can blow it up now faster. I think it's better in terms of balance for her.

CaptainCoach (56:26.486)
Mm.

Gallus (56:27.042)
How how does he how does he know?

Coach Mills (56:40.113)
Yep. I think it's good a good change. Good. I'll I I any nerf I'll take. Any nerf. Any fucking nerf in the entire pack. I like I'll literally take it. I care. okay. I said any nerf. I gotta stand by it. I'm still locking him. Hey, it's I'm gonna just tell people in advance we're losing this game, but it's not my fault. I'm just alright. Okay, anyways. Captain America. so Captain America's base health got up from three hundred to three fifty. Now his vibranium shield energy saw bounce damage fall off is removed.

CaptainCoach (56:46.638)
Thor's health reduced by four hundred?

Gallus (56:47.181)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (57:08.369)
The team up with Thor now lasts ten seconds instead of seven. And when he's selecting the team up with Winter Soldier, slightly increased movement speed after using the team up. It's a slightly I don't fucking know what that means. W patch notes. Yeah, yeah, go for it.

CaptainCoach (57:21.548)
I want to take the lead with this one to kind of start the conversation. So there is a YouTuber, former fighting game player. I referenced him on the light versus flats pod. His name is Adam Hart, known as Keats. Gallus, you're nodding. You know who he is? Or you Okay, okay. So he All right, all right. So he he is a game dev. He has released.

Gallus (57:38.208)
No, I know when you referenced it because I edited a six point five hour long fucking reaction to that debate, bro. I've heard you say this like ten times now.

Coach Mills (57:40.057)
mung (57:43.907)
Mm.

Coach Mills (57:47.858)
Yeah.

CaptainCoach (57:51.195)
balance changes for games on and I r recently listened to a podcast of him discussing the the types of strategies he would use as a game dev to release patch notes that are received better by the community despite not making whatever change that the community wants. And a lot one of the things one of the things he referred to, I know they just do things in order here, but was it was the order at which

Gallus (58:11.717)
absolutely. Yeah, that would be. Yeah, go on. Sorry.

CaptainCoach (58:20.568)
They present you the changes because a lot of things are affected by other things. And I found that so interesting because to me, if if I were to see Cap get a 50 health buff, in my mind, I'm thinking, yes, he for sure needed a health buff. Absolutely. 50. I thought it could have probably been more. But in my head, I'm thinking, well, they're probably gonna nerf Bucky. They're probably gonna nerf Elsa. And then we scroll down. wait.

Gallus (58:22.882)
Yeah.

Gallus (58:45.998)
Scroll down one hero, bro. What if you put cap ahead of the next hero? Like

CaptainCoach (58:48.158)
One damage. No, so so so what I'm saying here is that had they done what they were supposed to, I think fifty health is an appropriate amount. But they this is not nearly enough. Like he needs like a hundred and fifty health or two hundred health in my opinion.

Coach Mills (58:48.753)
Wait, y'all are spoiling again No

Coach Mills (58:57.478)
yeah.

Gallus (59:02.958)
I I don't I I feel like I'm a the like in the tech in the landscape of this entire patch, I don't know how much Cap has moved really, but to me, like I I don't know if he needed much at all and if other stuff just needed nerfs, but I'm pro nerf. Like I d fifty health to him is a lot, bro. That's a fucking big change. Like that's a big deal for Cap. And now it's kinda just like whatever. I'm like I I guess like is this where w yeah, sorry.

CaptainCoach (59:30.456)
So you don't think it's enough. Or you sorry, I don't think it's enough. You think it's you think this is plenty.

Coach Mills (59:31.015)
Well w what

Gallus (59:35.82)
What was it like like a a season ago this guy was like he was actually him?

Coach Mills (59:39.697)
Yeah, the the the character himself is not flawed. Like he in his current state he's stronger than he was in eight point five and the character was the best tank in the game at eight point five. It's just the it's just him relative to everything. Like it like if i i like you said, if they nerfed the characters they were supposed to nerf, that is the biggest buff to Captain America we could possibly ask for. Right.

CaptainCoach (59:51.874)
Well I I'm just

CaptainCoach (59:59.469)
Yeah, right. Well that's my point. That's kind of my point. But I guess I you guys still think the health is yeah, I mean health health is pretty good.

Coach Mills (01:00:05.061)
I get I I don't I don't think any ch any of these changes matter. They just don't they just don't matter to Captain America's viability, like at all. but here

mung (01:00:12.101)
I mean actually I think some of the changes are really sh I think some of the changes are really strong. Like stars aligned speed boost. Like we gotta see how much that actually is. I I mean with them I don't even I don't trust the word slight with them, man. I really don't.

Gallus (01:00:12.578)
Health is absolutely a big deal for him.

Coach Mills (01:00:18.291)
it says slight. What does that actually look like? I don't know. But he So I'm I'm curious if y'all agree with this take. I actually think Captain America is gonna be substantially stronger in season ten. And it has nothing to do with these changes, nor the nerfs. It has everything to do with the new band system, which we didn't talk about. But there is no not only are there gonna be no double bands, but you're gonna be able to ban intentionally. and

CaptainCoach (01:00:24.856)
Ha ha ha.

Gallus (01:00:37.388)
True, yeah.

mung (01:00:37.721)
Yeah, I agree completely.

Coach Mills (01:00:45.903)
I think that's really important because we can clear the way for this character and dive in general a lot more. Like there's ways to clear it because you don't have to like you don't have to really ban Black Cat, especially if you're trying to force Captain America. I think we'll we'll get to the thing, but I think he's gonna be specifically weak against certain type of divers more now than he was before. And, you know, Elsa and Bucky, you can easily ban those characters if you really want to. I think it's possible to clear away for Cap to be good.

In a way that you could never do that in in fucking nine point five ever. You could never clear the way.

Gallus (01:01:19.838)
yeah, and and a big and a big dive enabler is buffed later on, sorry spoilers. yeah, like I I feel like this is gonna bring Cow back. If it if it doesn't, it's because he's being gate kept by another hero or team comp. But this is like this hero is absolutely I I I don't see a an argument for this hero being bad unless he's just getting dumpstered by something that's insanely still broken.

Coach Mills (01:01:44.731)
Yeah. I also the nerf to the rage bait bubble helps.

CaptainCoach (01:01:46.85)
So Mil Mills then, would you say that due to meta shifts because you know a thing being nerfed that he didn't need these buffs?

Coach Mills (01:01:56.263)
Well, I d like I think that so it's it's kinda like a spectrum 'cause it it's like characters are not strong or weak in a vacuum. They're only strong or weak in comparison to other things, right? and so like Captain America, like these buffs probably moved him up a couple of inches, but it's not gonna it's it like if they didn't nerf anything, right? It wouldn't have mattered. The power level of Magneto, the power level of thing, the power level of all this stuff would like

How strong would you have had to buff Captain America so that he would be good in 9.5? I mean, what would you have to do? Like triple his damage or some shit? Give him 400 HP. Like what would you have to do legitimately to make him good? and and and it but it's easy it's reasonable and easier to just meet somewhere in the middle, right? Like bring things down, bring him up a little bit. But like I still don't think that's enough. I still think he's substantially weaker.

Gallus (01:02:34.04)
Proli s straight up maybe. Yeah.

CaptainCoach (01:02:34.572)
Yeah. That's a good point. Yeah.

mung (01:02:36.399)
Actually.

Coach Mills (01:02:49.863)
But with the bands, I think you could probably snake in there. Like that's hit and like like like Venom's not on the Vanguard list, spoiler alert. I think Venom's gonna be substantially better in ten because you can find that band line more reasonably. And things are also weaker than they were before. Like not everything, but some things are weaker than they were before.

CaptainCoach (01:03:08.556)
He he he's gotta be pickable now. Like there's no way he's not at least pickable. He might not be great. I probably agree with you on that, but I think he's pickable now for sure.

Coach Mills (01:03:13.276)
Right.

Coach Mills (01:03:17.585)
Yeah, yeah, I I I definitely agree. And he he might be really strong in in pro play, with their ignite bands and all I don't know. Maybe. there's a chance.

CaptainCoach (01:03:24.418)
Also, that winner soldier team up Mung was saying, like I I think that's actually pretty good too, 'cause a lot of times you're just using that as a reposition to kind of get out of a sticky situation and you wanna be back in the fight, it's gonna help a lot with his damage. Like he's gonna get a lot of extra damage just 'cause of the uptime he'll get from being able to move around the map more when he gets kind of pulled out of a fight. Like I I think it's actually people are gonna be using that one quite a bit.

Coach Mills (01:03:47.399)
Yeah. no.

mung (01:03:47.461)
Yeah, well it also depends on what what the bands are too, like Mills said. Like that's gonna enable dive like heavily as well. Like you're just gonna be I think I don't know, we gotta see how it plays out.

Gallus (01:03:53.484)
Yeah, yeah.

CaptainCoach (01:03:56.77)
Yeah, for sure.

Coach Mills (01:03:58.347)
the next one is Tank Pool, which is my filthy one trick. Apparently it apparently ever since this character ever since this character got nerfed, I just can't play the game anymore, I guess. and now he's fucking back. Okay, let me I gotta read him for those that are listening. So his pistols now do at at 30 meters, they do fifty or they do 75% damage instead of fifty percent. So you're still you're always gonna do 75% no matter how far you are. and then

His banhammer, which is his pistol ultimate, now is going to heal him by ten more per second and it's gonna have a max or the big test ultimate ability is going to it's gonna gain him three hundred instead of two hundred HP, which is his big test is sword, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Sword.

No. Am I trippin'? Chat I say chat like anyone's here.

Gallus (01:04:52.536)
Yep. Big test is solid, I think, yeah.

CaptainCoach (01:04:52.726)
To honest, I I zoned out 'cause it was tank pool changes. I was just waiting for the Hulk the Hulk changes.

Coach Mills (01:04:55.488)
my god.

Gallus (01:04:57.24)
Banhammer's the gun one, Big Test is the other one.

Coach Mills (01:04:59.761)
Right, right. Okay, yeah, yeah, okay. I was I was right. I'm just making sure s for accuracy's sake. Okay, cool. but yeah, so basically his ultimates are gonna be like they're gonna give him more survivability. he's going to be able to shoot like more damage from range, but the most important change, and we'll talk about this throughout the entire patch notes, is the fact that the upgrades are now the e XP you need for each upgrade is seventy five percent of its original values. So twenty five you know

mung (01:04:59.831)
Yeah, I'm pretty sure big test is what you said.

Gallus (01:05:25.934)
That's huge.

mung (01:05:26.965)
That's massive.

Coach Mills (01:05:28.669)
Twenty five percent easier to get every upgrade and with tank pool it's like it's like a snowballs effect. Like getting through the beginning phases is really hard because you're so weak. Now you can deal more damage from range and then like s easily scale up those first couple of abilities and like snowball off of that. I I mean, this scare just fucking back, baby. He's Yeah, what's up?

CaptainCoach (01:05:48.089)
Question for you, Mills. Same question I had for Cap. Would you say with the Thing nerfs that he really need like these are way bigger buffs than Cap, right? Like this is way bigger. And I would argue that this guy was already better than Cap and also benefits from Thing getting nerfed. So, like, what are they like? Is is is this not just way too much?

Coach Mills (01:05:56.083)
That is huge, yeah.

Gallus (01:05:56.92)
yeah.

Coach Mills (01:06:07.475)
So I think there it's a couple things going on. I think they're doing it by comparison a little bit because I think that the hood does eat up some of Deadpool's, you know, versatility, his role, his identity. Like they're similar in some ways. So I think, you know, there's not really a character that does what Cap does, so he's kinda unique in that environment versus they they're not a one to one. I don't like it how people say that they're a one to one, but the hood does get played in spots where Deadpool would have traditionally got played in.

And so that's probably one of the reasons why they want to buff this character, not only in comparison to the field, but also in comparison to Hood. without nerfing the Hood too like severely.

CaptainCoach (01:06:47.84)
Yeah. I I see what you're saying. This to me still just looks like a double buff that they didn't really need to do. They're just being like, Okay, Deadpool players, here you go. We see ya.

Coach Mills (01:06:56.807)
I mean, even with these buffs, I don't think Deadpool is as strong as the hood was in nine point five. So like it's not the worst thing in the world, but I'm also gonna be biased. Like I'm just gonna be a biased person.

CaptainCoach (01:07:06.04)
Well, I mean, Hooded nine point five is like pretty much best tank, so it's

mung (01:07:08.237)
Yeah, he's not.

Coach Mills (01:07:09.561)
Right, right, right. Right. But I'm I'm I'm just saying like but like even with with Hood being the best tank, I don't think he creates as bad of gameplay loops as Mag or Th or Thing. I don't know y'all might not agree with me there, but I think Mag or Thing like Hood there are certain characters that I think are more okay to be good. Thing is not one of them. I think Thing is one of the worst characters to be good in the game. I think the Hood at least requires skill and there's more ways to interact with that character than Thing is. Like it just

Gallus (01:07:30.328)
Yep. Mm-hmm.

Coach Mills (01:07:37.723)
So I I feel similar about Deadpool. not release Deadpool, by the way, but Deadpool in his current state or like

CaptainCoach (01:07:40.395)
Okay.

Gallus (01:07:44.216)
Deadbill's scary as hell. He he's scary as fuck. I I I actually I actually really like the first change. because I I don't know if you can really say that this game actually has poke tanks because their range is so limited. And this is easily like probably the highest damage you have at range from a tank at this point, unless you count penny. so that's like I I feel like that's a sleeper change. the the fall off is kind of a big deal to me.

CaptainCoach (01:07:46.295)
Yes.

Coach Mills (01:07:46.759)
Yeah, you think so? Yeah.

Gallus (01:08:12.076)
And the rest is like I feel like just the upgrade is insane. It's genuinely like that that is so good. And the rest is like i is that a revert plus a buff to the alt on the gun?

Coach Mills (01:08:21.139)
They

mung (01:08:24.697)
Think so.

Coach Mills (01:08:24.867)
for for just the HP game, not the damage. Like before the thing was broken because it made him unkillable and it killed you. But now it it still doesn't do as much damage, so

Gallus (01:08:27.97)
Yeah, okay.

Gallus (01:08:34.86)
Yeah, and also about like the hood slot is that like the gun ult would like kill the hood because he shot so many bullets. Apparently. I never had that interaction 'cause no one picked tank pool, but like, yeah.

Coach Mills (01:08:40.755)
Right. No, I don't Yeah. Right.

CaptainCoach (01:08:46.542)
All right, well you play tank pool at Mills and I got gore. Nice. Mong, is this too much poke slob?

Coach Mills (01:08:50.639)
no, I'm locking court too. Locking court too, no but no, no, I yeah, it's it's

mung (01:08:56.869)
I mean we gotta see how it plays with these bands. It it very well could be like that's a big upgrade, man. Seventy-five percent and legitimately twenty-five percent decrease on upgrades, man. He might be unironically really good now.

Coach Mills (01:09:07.471)
It we got upgrade by and there's the And here's a spoiler, this isn't even the strongest pool. There's another pool that we'll get to that is fucking busted. We'll talk about I honestly both of them, but we'll talk about. double dino. Okay, so increase bleed duration stacked on enemies per beam hit from point five to one. Increased bleed damage from point seven five percent to one point two percent, and then with the team up with Punisher

mung (01:09:14.851)
Yeah, not true. Spoiler alert.

Gallus (01:09:15.679)
yeah, bro.

Coach Mills (01:09:35.281)
The primal punishment projectile speed goes from one twenty meters per second to one fifty. can y'all answer this one question? Why the fuck did they buff Devil Dino?

mung (01:09:48.954)
Because they're incompetent. Like, I don't know, man. Like the what's what's the answer? Like, what was the bleed damage percentage when when Dino was considered the best character in the game? What was it? I can't remember. Was it? Was it one point two? Like that's ridiculous. Like that's a massive buff. And on top of that, the duration is doubled. You're you're just gonna see Dino thing thing comps if you don't ban them. That's what you're gonna end up seeing again. Like nothing changes, guys. Nothing ever happens.

Coach Mills (01:09:50.285)
Okay.

Gallus (01:09:51.054)
Okay.

Gallus (01:10:00.654)
I'm pretty sure this was the number.

Coach Mills (01:10:16.369)
It's

CaptainCoach (01:10:17.108)
I have a theory, but I'll let you guys go.

Gallus (01:10:17.218)
They they put him in the thing slot from last season. I I just like th yeah, the he he's taken the thing slot, surely, right? Plus plus one of his team up partners is buffed as well. All right, so we'll get into that. But it it's just i i like it seeing this after the cap change, I'm like, okay, yeah, cap gets fifty bonus health. Yeah, no shit, because the because Dino can just like rip his throat out. Like he it fucking kills the guy. Like I I d

Coach Mills (01:10:20.667)
What's it? you did you just take that slot? Okay, yeah.

CaptainCoach (01:10:27.094)
Okay, so

mung (01:10:27.365)
I think you could just run both.

CaptainCoach (01:10:30.58)
My

Gallus (01:10:47.426)
Why why? Why? Why? I feel like Dino with his team ups, what they did with Jeff team up, all right, nerf the thing, all right, some nerfs are other things. This guy is primed, and he's also just a stat stick. He just stat checks, bro. You don't need to buff him further because it just makes that more prevalent. It's not like, yeah, this the skill ceiling's going up and there's more wiggle room for you to like make Dino work. It's like he works or he doesn't, okay?

Right, we got the new snake the snake ban system, you know, like fucking I I I'm I'm a I'm against the dino buff, bro. I think it was fine. I think it was absolutely fine.

Coach Mills (01:11:13.179)
And now he just works.

CaptainCoach (01:11:20.184)
So

mung (01:11:20.421)
Well the cope is he's just a perma band now. That's the cope. Yeah.

CaptainCoach (01:11:23.405)
I

Gallus (01:11:23.446)
Yes. Yeah, it's band manipulation. Yep.

CaptainCoach (01:11:26.922)
I was going to actually bring up Dino when we talked about the healer alt charge nerfs, but I figured we'd get to it anyway. So Dino, to me, why they're doing this is because this is a hero that does not operate under the traditional I shoot you, get alt charge, I get healed, give alt charge because Dino gives less values. So they're I think they're kind of testing Dino.

And also the same reason why I think they put it on more of like an introductory character, like an easy character, some someone who's unique and and not of the Marvel like imagery that a lot of people have. He's like the Jeff of tanks, right? Like he's he's f so they they make him specifically this way to be this like you kinda said it like like just like a battery. We want the battery hero to be really good. So there's enough games where like Dino's in, okay, maybe not in this one, but like

Gallus (01:12:11.843)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (01:12:12.211)
Right.

CaptainCoach (01:12:26.464)
Where this very like heel-body, like spammy main choke type play style gets reinforced and encouraged. And that's why the Dino is like their baby. They're they're never going to let Dino be too bad because they saw what happened when they make thing too good and they they give make thing take Dino's place. People find it miserable. So now they're kind of just.

Gallus (01:12:51.118)
Well that yeah, well that's not why people found it miserable. People found it miserable because y I could teach my dog to do what the thing was doing, bro. And he just kills everything. No, it wasn't

Coach Mills (01:12:53.043)
Yeah, I I I honestly think

CaptainCoach (01:12:58.636)
Well was the Dyno meta no different? Was season eight no different though? Right before that?

Coach Mills (01:13:02.885)
No. I actually think I think Dino is so much more preferable as a meta tank than Think. Personally. I I actually hate the Think so much. Dino isn't as good against Dive as Thing is. By cause Think has like a double usage where he gets to be this frontline spammy nonsense character like Dino is. And then he can just neutralize entire dive teams. Devil can grab one tank, but he's not simultaneously stopping or Dino can.

CaptainCoach (01:13:30.094)
Dino can.

Coach Mills (01:13:32.593)
Yeah, Dino can grab one tank, but he's not stopping like the Daredevil and the and the Venom and the Cab all at once. Like he's not capable of doing that.

Gallus (01:13:39.776)
like sh sure, right, but against a hard dive team, like he he's necessarily gonna have better bubble up time to block off heals from the people diving. He's also got the Jeff team up, so he actually can peel against that, and he's good against the dive tanks. Like, so d I wouldn't like hold your breath. And I I I a hundred percent agree with the ban manipulation. Like the ban manipulation basically you ban dino to enable dive, like you can now run the cap, run the

Coach Mills (01:13:56.935)
I mean we we didn't see we didn't see I mean he's gonna be he's gonna be good. No. He's a hundred percent gonna be good.

CaptainCoach (01:13:57.529)
Dino's gonna be good. He's gonna be good.

Gallus (01:14:06.83)
Right, I don't know, like g maybe Gore, fucking magic with the chain, black cat, blah blah blah. But if Dino's open, then this now s occupies that slot in the roster to maybe do something about it at the skill floor. l I I see the I see the argument. I'm I'm I'm still against it though, because you wouldn't enable those things without compensation, like knee jerk buffing them and Dino wouldn't have to occupy the slot that everyone was complaining about last season.

Coach Mills (01:14:35.879)
Right. So i I I'm curious what y'all think about this take, because I had this take about I think there's a problem with Dino's design, but maybe it's unfixable. So I said I said when I got to this in my like Patch React, I was like, Dino was already seeing a lot of play in high levels. He was doing really, really well. He's d he was dominating in some lobbies. Why did they buff him? And then someone in like a whole bunch of people in chat were like, He's t he's he's feeding. He's doing terrible in low ranks. He's not winning the game. And I I said if

CaptainCoach (01:14:36.695)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (01:15:03.395)
You have to buff this character that is already good in high Elo so that he's playable in low ELO, then it's a failure of design for the fucking dinosaur character that is supposed to be like d like this is the type of hero you want to be good in casual play, right? If you cannot make him good in casual plays specifically, he should be one of those characters like, you know, fucking Scarlet Witch or Squirrel Girl, whatever, that is good in low rank but not good in high rank. If you cannot do that with him, you need to fix his design. I think that there's a problem

CaptainCoach (01:15:17.806)
Mm-hmm.

Coach Mills (01:15:32.783)
If you want to make because basically what they're saying is what Chad is saying is that this character needs to be stronger because he's terrible in low elo. But he's really good in high elo and buffs like this are gonna make him dominant in high elo. Just though he's playable in low elo, it's it's a flaw in his design. I don't know how to fix it though, because the other point they said is it's his hitbox.

Gallus (01:15:49.878)
I is that is that actually true? Was he really underperforming in low Elo? Because the the The only justification I can think of for that is that they've designed healing to be so accessible that I don't think the size of Dino changes anything. But maybe it just makes him so reliable to hit at the skill floor that the dynamic between damage and healing against him is the difference.

CaptainCoach (01:15:55.278)
I believe so, yeah.

Coach Mills (01:15:55.837)
That's what they said. Yeah, he just we're just popping.

CaptainCoach (01:16:10.382)
That's

Coach Mills (01:16:10.488)
Yeah, that's exactly why. Exactly. Exactly. They don't use cover and it's super easy to shoot

CaptainCoach (01:16:14.71)
That's one and then and two Yeah, that yeah. And then two is there's not as many tanks and Dino Farms tanks. There's not many tanks in lower rank. At least I don't think so.

Gallus (01:16:24.556)
Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

Coach Mills (01:16:24.765)
Yeah, everyone's playing triple DPS as well. Like that's that's my problem is like, how do you fix that from a design perspective? It's or not like you have to try to fix it from a design perspective because we cannot just have this character be broken so that he's playable in in in like the lower ranks. It just doesn't it it it's just nonsense.

CaptainCoach (01:16:26.926)
Right, everyone's playing dive, they're all playing B P.

CaptainCoach (01:16:44.29)
Yeah. I I'm glad we all agree that that's what it is though. Because I like I say, they buff Jeff too. Dino is the Jeff of tanks and then they buff Jeff and they they're they want people to be playing Dino Jeff.

Coach Mills (01:16:51.187)
Right.

mung (01:16:52.003)
Yeah. You you know you know what the funny thing is too Mills, you're not wrong. If you look at the hero hot list, he's got like a forty eight percent win rate in low Elo. So he probably is under.

Gallus (01:16:59.79)
Damn.

Coach Mills (01:17:02.481)
Just they're just playing out in the open and it's easy to shoot him. But like we we cannot we can't fix that we can't fix that problem. Right. But yeah, no and agreed.

mung (01:17:05.029)
Just get blown up.

Gallus (01:17:05.538)
That that j that's a justification of the that that makes sense. Sorry, sorry. It makes sense that they increase the projectile speed of the punny team up. That's a low rank buff.

CaptainCoach (01:17:16.086)
And and and just to p wrap it all, put it a put a bow on it, this is an example of a low rank minded change negatively affecting the higher ranks. Okay, so this is there it is, right there. Like Dino was in a like a perfectly fine spot, perfectly viable, pickable.

Coach Mills (01:17:30.023)
Well, I don't but I like to play devil's advocate here, I don't think you want this character to be bad in low ELO. Like, this is the type of onboarding character that people play rivals casual for, right? So I would love this character to be viable in low ELO. What do you have to do to him to make him terrible in high ELO? But viable in low ELO. Whatever that is, find that design.

Gallus (01:17:52.595)
I might have to take that. I might take that away and and see if I can think some stuff up. Like I might do that on a stream. I think that's really interesting.

mung (01:17:59.01)
I mean I have a I have a concept that they could implement for certain characters that are really hard to design. I don't know. It's it's really risky, but you could do per Elo type of balancing for certain heroes. Like this type of design for Dino, like you can have it maybe once you get to Celestial his numbers are a little bit different compared to like slow. I don't know, 'cause otherwise I don't know what you do. Like like what do you do otherwise?

CaptainCoach (01:17:59.928)
Do it.

CaptainCoach (01:18:11.276)
Mm.

CaptainCoach (01:18:18.134)
I don't I don't like that.

Gallus (01:18:19.874)
No.

Coach Mills (01:18:21.235)
I mean I mean you have you have to reduce his skill expression, which is fucking terrible, but you actually have to. You you you would have to remove all the grab text from him. You would have to remove the I mean, the one eighty kick, the one eighty melee. I like I don't know. It's like it's it's a very it's a very it's a very frustrating designed character because I don't really know what the way like I don't think we can just say the character just needs to be bad.

mung (01:18:25.669)
'Cause they have to rework the whole hero then. Like it's just will they do that?

CaptainCoach (01:18:40.558)
I've

Gallus (01:18:47.278)
Just rotting it down.

Coach Mills (01:18:50.407)
Because like he's fine in high elo. You just don't get to play him in low elo. Like I don't really think that's the right solution. So I I just I'm d I I d I just don't know. I don't know how to fix him, to be honest with you. I have no idea how to fix him.

mung (01:18:57.315)
I agree.

CaptainCoach (01:19:01.038)
I always thought they sh his AoE shield should be probably about half the radius it is, but if it pops, it gives Dino a damage reduction buff to help him against like high damage situations. So like the extremes, that would be when it kicks in. But in other all all other situations, he'll still be able to do his kidnap, but it'll be a little you have to be on top of them to do it, and you won't get this just guaranteed value. So it encourages gameplay loops that like you actually being aggressive on him. And then it would be to give him two charges of the

the the chomp, but make it so you can only chomp somebody once through either like like one of them applies a stack and then the second one actually chomps them, right? Or some some something like that where he so he can use it to kinda move around.

Coach Mills (01:19:43.015)
I have a I have a dumb idea. What if he has a passive that's called no fear? And if you're if you're playing him out in the fucking open, not next to cover, he gets like 10% damage reduction or something. It's like no fear. It's just the no fear. I don't know. I don't know how to fix it. I don't know how to fix him. I don't know how to fix him. Alright, well well, make a video like how to

CaptainCoach (01:19:51.374)
Ha ha ha.

Gallus (01:19:53.826)
A pro

mung (01:19:55.141)
That shit would be like, bro, come on.

CaptainCoach (01:19:56.631)
Gallus (01:19:59.002)
No. We just we just had a three and a half minute long clip of people standing out in the open not dying, bro. No.

Coach Mills (01:20:10.877)
How to fix X character. I told Death to make I told Death to make these kind of videos. I think these would be cool for you too, Gallus, as shorts. Is like how would you redesign a character to make him healthier? Yeah, it it it'd be cool. It'd be cool. Yeah.

Gallus (01:20:12.162)
I'll think about it.

Gallus (01:20:20.62)
I yeah, I think this could be a long form video, it might do. Yeah.

CaptainCoach (01:20:24.195)
shit, I gonna say if it's a short form well actually long form, you put me on the thumbnail and like make it look like I'm yelling at you. Like Captain Coach disagrees with my idea. He's really taught There you go. There you go for the thumbnail. I got you. Screenshot that, you're good.

Coach Mills (01:20:29.907)
Okay.

Gallus (01:20:30.414)
True, yeah. Thanks, bro.

Coach Mills (01:20:34.323)
Bro, you need get I sorry this is a random tangent. You need a positivity arc thumbnail with you like in like a like a nun outfit like pray like praying like this, like I want Yeah, yeah, it's yes. No, but that would be the best that would be the best stream ever. Positivity, you know, positivity arc. And then it it's like when you slip up once, every slip up equals drink or some shit. I don't know. I don't know, I don't know. okay, anyways,

CaptainCoach (01:20:42.19)
A nun outfit. Nun cosplay? my god!

Gallus (01:20:48.48)
mung (01:20:49.551)
Be powerful.

CaptainCoach (01:20:54.936)
Alright.

Gallus (01:21:00.43)
I made best friends with my Spidey OTP who was zero and nineteen. Like

CaptainCoach (01:21:01.717)
shit.

Coach Mills (01:21:05.559)
Okay. Okay, Doctor Strange. So now his his primary projectile speed goes up from 60 to 80. I mean they're gonna keep they're gonna make this shit hit scan at some point. It's going really fast. the attack interval between casts goes down by 0.1 second. And now when you're on the Hulk team up, there's no spell field damage fault.

mung (01:21:06.977)
Ha ha.

mung (01:21:33.487)
That's a big improvement for him. I think it's gonna be very noticeable.

CaptainCoach (01:21:35.384)
W you can you can you scroll it up a little bit?

that's it. Okay. Sorry.

Coach Mills (01:21:44.293)
It's just yeah, I mean just more consistent damage, a little bit faster and the gamut team up is reasonable to pick now probably, but before it was kinda ass.

mung (01:21:53.764)
Horrible.

CaptainCoach (01:21:53.891)
Gallus, what what would you say to the argument that it it's more interesting to keep the projectile speed wonky and slow and unique, but just increase the damage so you get more rewarded for it? Like where do you where's what's your opinion on that? I'm kinda curious.

Gallus (01:22:09.87)
but I I I I think that's fine. I I I'm not sure Yeah, I like that. I like the skill expression of it because it's only got such a it's it's such a short effective range, right? So you know the hitting your shots on strange is a thing. Like it's not like it's always guaranteed. Like I I think most higher rank people is j are just hitting everything on him anyway, but like there's an argument here for that. I I

They keep buffing this left click, bro. This left click was good. This was good. And I think Strange is one of those heroes that people like playing with and against. And I think he's a gold standard they should try to make the rest of the tank cast emulate. Right? But he's being he's just having his left click crept patch after patch now to keep up with the rest of what's going on. And I think he's like he's something that the rest of the cast should they should aspire to make the rest of the cast emulate his level of power. And

CaptainCoach (01:22:55.565)
Yeah.

Gallus (01:23:06.414)
Instead instead he's he's being buffed and buffed and buffed. And I'm yeah.

Coach Mills (01:23:06.48)
Agreed. A hundred percent.

mung (01:23:07.919)
Yeah.

CaptainCoach (01:23:10.294)
Right, 'cause they in a previous patches, I think more than once they've they've tweaked the numbers of the individual bolts that he fires. So they have actually increased the damage. But yeah, like when you say how how well designed he is, I think part of it is 'cause of his primary. He's strange is more of of a of a melee here in a lot of ways. Like he hit most of his output is like when someone's really up close. He's so I'd say he's like a short to mid range kind of tank, like a really short, like like shorter than Emma, right?

Coach Mills (01:23:10.403)
He's

CaptainCoach (01:23:39.853)
So to me, doing something like this, I I get why they're doing it. I'm not against it, but I I I warn of changes like this because you talk about that that gold standard. I I think this is moving away from that just just a tiny bit. He's a little bit more range heavy, a little bit more pokey, kind of losing a bit of that identity. And yeah, so I'm I'm not I'm not a huge fan of this buff. I this is not the way I would have gone about it. I I don't think it's terrible, like I get why they're doing it.

Gallus (01:24:00.802)
Yep, I agree.

CaptainCoach (01:24:09.154)
But this is again just where I go back to like my principles and and it's just I gotta stand by them, right? So I

mung (01:24:14.275)
Well, I mean it's just power creep, right? Like this is just their quick solution to try to get closer to everybody else. But, you know, it's just a symptom of like the greater problem.

Gallus (01:24:19.704)
Yes.

CaptainCoach (01:24:22.422)
This is a low rank buff for sure. Like it has to be. Like the it's definitely harder to lead, with a slower moving shot. It just is, right? So this is definitely more at lower ranks, I would say.

Gallus (01:24:33.144)
To and to to me the attack speed is this is an insane change. Like I feel like the attack speed on him is really good, bro. And, you know, also you can ask the question, where does this actually matter? And I feel like every target who was a good target for Strange is there's less and less wiggle room for you now, bro. That's like an anti counterplay thing when you just creep and creep stuff like this. And yeah, yeah, I I guess we'll see where it lands. I'm not saying strange is now S tier or anything, but it's the

It's how he interacts with the game. It's you know, are they are they doing something to his design that they should never have done? You know, does it does it make the rest of the game maybe slightly less lower quality because Strange can just bulldoze more targets now?

CaptainCoach (01:25:08.781)
Yeah and and

CaptainCoach (01:25:16.172)
And and and he's gonna feel more sp spammy, which I I think has been already a complaint of nine is that th we're on this like I said, hamster where we're we gotta keep firing or else we're we're gonna fall behind. Like supports especially, I feel like feel that way. I feel that way when we're doing the supports. Will you just yawn at me, Coach Mills, when I'm talking about supports? You mother f no, I'm kidding. I'm just joking. I'm just joking. Well, I was looking at you 'cause we're Coach Mills and I are doing a support challenge and I feel like if I stop healing for ev if I even reload, my team's dead. Like I feel like I cannot

Coach Mills (01:25:33.029)
I'm bur I'm unclenching my jaw. Ugh, you're boring you know.

Like fucking

Gallus (01:25:44.237)
Yes.

CaptainCoach (01:25:45.814)
And and I am just spamming, spamming, spamming. It's like I wanna go do other stuff and w changes like this over and over

Gallus (01:25:50.552)
Yeah bro, that like that's like a core experience of support. That's that's part of the whole incentive structure that teaches players across all the ranks to to play like this. Like if you look away for a second, someone's gonna die. It's actually one of the situ it's it's one of the circumstances that caused a death in the whole three point five minute teamfight. Like someone was reloading and someone actually died. That's why they died. Like, yeah.

CaptainCoach (01:26:08.598)
Right. Right. So like all you support players out there, I know we got it like two watching. we the these changes like with Strange you should you shouldn't be happy about if you're the type of support who wants to go and make plays because this is this is going to go on to you. This is more healing for you now that Strange is just going to be spamming from a range and nothing's happening like

Coach Mills (01:26:31.121)
I mean

So I'm I'm gonna play devil's advocate again for I I hate KPV constantly playing devil's advocate, but okay, like the best case scenario I think we all could agree is they they just nerf every fucking thing to Strange's power level. They stop buffing him every time. And like Strange is an A tier tank or even an S tier tank without giving him any buffs, right? But if they're not doing that, which they're fucking not because they hate they hate me personally, they I

Gallus (01:26:36.459)
It's this guy bro.

Coach Mills (01:27:00.829)
Would love a meta where Strange is the best tank in the game. And the reason is because he's so much more interactable than any other fucking tank. If I'm Luna Snow, I can I have counterplay to his ultimate. I can freeze it. I can hit like it's it's not like Magneto Ult, which I know that Magneto Ult is is like a necessary and it's like a like a necessary evil or whatever. There's no counterplay to that motherfucking thing. The counterplay is begging your team to help you, is the counterplay. You can't you don't have the agency that you have against strange.

Strange also doesn't have an infinite HP fucking shield that just gets to absorb everything. He doesn't have like these bubbles that can be used to just deny like entire good plays. Like, I to me personally, we have not had a strange meta in so long. Like, when's the last time Strange has been S tier? Legitimately. Since

CaptainCoach (01:27:45.58)
Like gamma.

Coach Mills (01:27:46.951)
Gam this Gamma. That's fucking forever ago. And so like I am a f I'm in favor of buffs if you're not gonna do the right like it's it's the s it's the second best decision besides doing the right decision.

Gallus (01:27:48.162)
Yeah, maybe.

CaptainCoach (01:28:01.016)
So what you're saying is that they need to make Doctor Strange's ultimate instant cast. Please, I need this. My hero's so weak. I love Strange.

Coach Mills (01:28:05.659)
No, they okay. No no no i no they should've did it when you select team up, he gets the bubble that Iron Man gets, you know, when he pops the fucking, you know And and and I can't even be mad at a change like this when we when there's the next change that we have to talk about in the patch notes. which which which is the the change that actually triggered the fuck out of me.

Gallus (01:28:06.926)
my god. Sh shut up. Don't give them the idea. Shut up.

mung (01:28:07.487)
Okay, let's let's not Okay, man.

CaptainCoach (01:28:17.825)
yeah. There you go. That's cool. Kinda.

Gallus (01:28:18.314)
my god, bro. Fuck you.

Gallus (01:28:28.206)
Oof.

CaptainCoach (01:28:28.514)
Hmm. I I say we just skip

CaptainCoach (01:28:34.998)
Yeah, just skip.

Coach Mills (01:28:35.533)
Emma Frost, base health from 650 to 675. The telepathic pulse, which is her primary, is not 18 meters. It's 20 fucking meters. And the carbon crush, which is her fucking dash into grab, goes up from 7 meters to 8.5 meters. Gallus, tell me what the fuck.

Gallus (01:28:57.922)
Do me next. Like I I don't know, bro. Like fucking t 25 health is insane for Emma. The range is insane for Emma. The choke distance, Emma Dino's back, bro. I don't know what else to say, man. Like, this hero, this hero was good. She's been good. Okay, you just nerfed a lot of other shit. Like, I ch I d Dino Emma, bro. Dino Emma, that's through. With a new draft, I don't know how much dive you're running. You know, I I I

Coach Mills (01:28:59.699)
Ha ha ha.

mung (01:29:09.537)
Exactly, thank you.

Gallus (01:29:27.861)
that's all I got to say, bro. Like yeah, sick.

CaptainCoach (01:29:29.25)
Com compare this to the Cap buffs, who is already way weaker than this hero. Anyone who doesn't know Emma like top five tank. She's hard like I she's hard meta. Like I she's n she solo carries. She's unbeatable. She forces you onto a very specific type of comp if you're like a a tank player. I and then this is a bigger buff buff than the one Cap got, and she's already better. I have a theory on this, but I I'll I'll let you talk on it, Mung. Like if if you want

Gallus (01:29:34.001)
mung (01:29:56.198)
I mean, just the base health buff alone is like hilarious to me. The fact that we're increasing the range of the primary as well. Like, twenty meters, guys, twenty meters is a lot, man, in this game. Like, unironically, on Emma, plus when she has her ramp up damage. Like, yeah, that's really, really fun to play against. And on top of that, now you got the dash 8.5. I'm good, bro. I don't want to hear about no Emma ever again. This shit needs to be reverted at some point, please. Nobody has fun playing against Emma Dino. Who here enjoys that?

Coach Mills (01:30:03.507)
Ha ha ha

CaptainCoach (01:30:22.232)
So

CaptainCoach (01:30:26.126)
mung (01:30:26.723)
Anybody? No? Okay, well there you go, right? Like that's what it's gonna be. You're gonna see your dyno, it's just gonna be grab simulator, or it's just whatever. I'm good, man. I I just don't.

CaptainCoach (01:30:36.214)
I the reason the reason they're over buffing Emma, they if anything, they could have gone the opposite direction. They could have actually nerfed this hero and have like, yeah, that's a pretty good change. Like they could have taken 25 health off. They could have getting two taken two meters off, maybe left the grab the way a way it is. I've been like, yeah, that's probably where she should be. she's the most played tank. And sh I think that is mainly because she is the tank most DPS. And I think especially from just my experience.

Gallus (01:30:36.446)
Hehehehehe.

Coach Mills (01:30:37.645)
Hay

CaptainCoach (01:31:05.946)
personal anecdotal experiences supports default too. So sh I I think Emma is played by a big subsect of people who barely ever have to tank and and that naturally makes her win rate lower. you could get into the reasons why they want to play this hero because she's like does a lot of damage. She's simple. She's very useful. But I I I think their data on on this hero is just completely wrong. And and it's she's always either strong or about to be strong and and

Yeah, I mean this is this you gotta ban this hero. Like you're just gonna have to ban her

mung (01:31:36.261)
I mean we know that there's a big skin coming up for her soon, right? You know?

CaptainCoach (01:31:38.915)
Yeah.

Gallus (01:31:42.499)
Yeah.

CaptainCoach (01:31:42.6)
there it is. Goon creep.

Coach Mills (01:31:43.517)
Goon creep.

mung (01:31:45.797)
That's all I'm saying, right? You know, push the sales up.

Coach Mills (01:31:46.589)
Take a shot, Goon Creep.

Gallus (01:31:47.53)
My fucking god. I I don't know what I don't know what to say about her, bro. especially if we see Dino like buffed by proxy anyway. Like I she's crowbarred into this patch, man. That that's a lot. I don't I'm sorry, I don't want to be doomer on every fucking change. There's some stuff in here that literally had me like yippee, yay. Like fucking your boys your boys happy about some of some of it. Okay. yeah, Emma.

CaptainCoach (01:31:49.006)
Take a shot.

Coach Mills (01:31:50.963)
Okay.

mung (01:32:10.029)
There's some good changes for sure.

Coach Mills (01:32:14.577)
Yeah, we'll I mean we'll get your final like full takes up.

Gallus (01:32:15.09)
Bro, I I think I think just ki keep it keep it moving. I think it's the same sort of power creep opinion that we've got. Yeah.

Coach Mills (01:32:22.887)
Root bonus eight HP gain from awakening on the ironwood wall from forty to fifty. my god. It's it's I mean it's it I mean is it though?

CaptainCoach (01:32:29.262)
Mmm. It's like, why even make this change? That's that's that's a lot though, by the way. Like I know that's a lot. That's hundreds of shield in a fight if you don't break it. Hundreds. Hundreds of health. Okay.

Gallus (01:32:31.278)
Okay.

Gallus (01:32:37.036)
That's good.

Gallus (01:32:44.098)
Mm-hmm.

Coach Mills (01:32:46.515)
Okay. I mean a after the meta we just w were were in, I'm I'm actually I'm down with a group meta again. Like I which is crazy to say. Somehow he's the lesser of of some evils in this fucking game, but

Gallus (01:32:47.98)
Hundreds. Like it is it is five billion h health in a fight, bro. Like come on.

Gallus (01:33:06.808)
I don't know how I feel about this. This is this this to me reads just like the strange change where they upped his ammo last patch or w the one beforehand. I i it i it it's just it's just creep.

Coach Mills (01:33:07.487)
yeah, yeah, okay.

mung (01:33:08.517)
It's like whatever to me.

Coach Mills (01:33:16.391)
Like Okay tell me tell me w tell me why though. Like I I want you to know like try to get into their heads a little bit for what was the reason?

mung (01:33:27.513)
They could. Why not? Might as well just throw one out there.

Coach Mills (01:33:29.011)
I just don't understand what data or what person was telling them to do this and why did they like I I it I don't really think it matters all that much for his viability, but I just don't know why. Like I have no fucking idea. Anyway, so I I'm I feel like I'm I asked this every patch. Okay. Okay.

Gallus (01:33:29.902)
Okay.

Gallus (01:33:45.326)
It's like it's it's nothing burger. It it's gonna accumulate to the moment there's a slot for him in the roster. Whoops, he's broken. Like that that's what it is. Yeah, I I I can't justify it.

Coach Mills (01:33:52.179)
So next is Magneto, which this is a big deal, but there's some weirdness going on. So the first thing is that his base health got reduced from 650 to 600. Now, this is a change that apparently was already in the game, but maybe wasn't. According to this, the metal both the bubbles, the team bubble and the self bubble, got reduced from 250 to 200. From my understanding, it was already at 200.

CaptainCoach (01:33:53.33)
Gallus (01:34:00.044)
Yeah.

mung (01:34:19.161)
Yep, exactly. I remember that too.

Gallus (01:34:19.544)
I remember this wrong. I was like, wait, they they buffed it back to two fifty? And I was like, I must have been misremembering when they did that. But apparently that was never listed as a buff.

Coach Mills (01:34:27.975)
They they did do that. So I don't know if I mean I haven't tested this officially. I don't know if it's actually lower than two hundred now. Or if

It would they just said they f they just fucked up. Like I I'm not a hundred percent sure. Look

I don't know. It to me this is extremely weird because they it should already be at two hundred. I don't really understand.

mung (01:34:53.613)
I I I think I think they shadow buffed it they just didn't tell anybody. Because I remember seeing they s they say it put it to two hundred.

Gallus (01:34:58.156)
Yeah, I think that's true. It's not listed. Yeah, th it's not listed that they moved it back to two hundred fifty. So either they didn't implement it by mistake or they shadow buffed it, yeah.

Coach Mills (01:34:58.728)
Coach Mills (01:35:02.486)
so

So they moved it back to 250 without telling people. I gotcha. And now they nerfed it. And everyone, that's okay. Very funny. Very funny, Netties. the team up with Scarlet Witch is now 18 seconds instead of 12. Let's fuck it go. now when there it's also getting a reduced in damage. The spell field damage, which is the AoE damage, is down from 40 to 35.

mung (01:35:04.953)
They just did it. A hundred percent they must have. What's the other explanation?

mung (01:35:13.541)
Where are you? Very funny.

CaptainCoach (01:35:23.502)
That's a good nerf.

Coach Mills (01:35:31.203)
And the single strike damage is reduced from 85 to 80. and the but the enhanced effect, the single projectile damage goes from twenty to ten, and the total single shot damage is reduced from forty-five to thirty-five. So what are your thoughts on this change? Meng, I want to start with you. Just comprehensively, what's your what's your thoughts on it?

mung (01:35:50.956)
Okay, well Magneto's been a big problem now this entire time for all of season nine nine point five. I think these nerfs are on our unironically not bad. I mean 50 HP, that's that's very noticeable, right? That's like on paper. But the shield stuff, I don't know, we'll have to see. I mean the bubbles are gonna be good no matter what, I think. You if you take 50, yeah, they're gonna break faster, but like fundamentally as an ability is really good. The sword is the problem.

Gallus (01:36:15.96)
Yes.

mung (01:36:18.177)
I still think even at eighteen, unironically, it's still such a almost one of the best team ups in the game. Now is he gonna be like the hard meta pick still? Probably not. Depends on what the band phase looks like, but I still think Magneto's here to stay. Like you're gonna be seeing him picked a lot.

CaptainCoach (01:36:35.404)
Wow. Yeah, I I I didn't really think I I thought he'd be picked as well, but you don't think this I mean, that's like a fifty percent nerf to the cooldown. I mean that's pretty massive, no? Like

mung (01:36:46.125)
I mean I s I still I still think it's very good, man. Like think about realistically eighteen versus twelve. Think about the fight where you're I just don't see how it's bad. I just think you're still gonna be good.

Gallus (01:36:49.603)
Yeah.

CaptainCoach (01:36:57.065)
Gallus (01:36:57.248)
You can see it. You can see the how they approach the sword and they have in the past with Magneto is that the problem with the sword is that it adds damage to Magneto. That's pretty much it. Like you can't really increase Magneto's damage by much from his base kit at all. So there's really little wiggle room for the sword to exist in terms of the numbers it puts out. So like besides the numbers it has now, I don't know how much further they can take it.

mung (01:37:05.829)
Yeah, exactly. That's it.

Gallus (01:37:21.556)
And I was I was of the opinion, yeah, if it was the numbers on the l on the team up from the last patch, this needed to be a thirty plus second cooldown. but like this, this all of these changes to him, I think are good. Yes. They're good changes. Yeah.

CaptainCoach (01:37:28.834)
Well

mung (01:37:29.125)
Yeah.

mung (01:37:32.569)
I think it's okay, yeah. It's like whatever.

CaptainCoach (01:37:33.495)
I I I don't disagree with you. Like I would be for all the team ups being anywhere from like twenty, thirty, maybe even forty second cooldown. I'm cool with that. But for me, I view it more in a way that because this cooldown was so short and Mag's tankiness was so high that you could start a fight with like a push, then go right into your sword, and then cycle through all your defensives, maintain somewhat of an aggressive positioning, harassing them, and then get right back to your sword.

Coach Mills (01:37:33.671)
Very good.

Gallus (01:38:03.288)
Yes.

CaptainCoach (01:38:03.554)
That he had no moment of weakness. Now I think he has a moment of weakness. Right.

mung (01:38:04.709)
Yeah.

Gallus (01:38:06.336)
Exactly, yeah. He he was too threatening to approach with a sword. Yeah, and then and then he would just cover his he w he would cover his weaknesses with the with his base kit. Like there was no there's no chink in the armor. So yeah, that that might exist now.

CaptainCoach (01:38:13.58)
So Yeah.

Right. Yeah, exact. So I think there's Windows now where he's not just so giga OP where you could actually fight back.

mung (01:38:24.303)
yeah, no, he's certainly weaker, but I still think he's not bad. Like we ha you gotta remember we have six bands. Six separate bands. Like there's gonna be situations where Magneto's still a really good pick.

CaptainCoach (01:38:27.704)
Right.

Gallus (01:38:29.816)
Yeah.

CaptainCoach (01:38:30.968)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (01:38:34.129)
No, I I I think he's gonna be good. he's probably still gonna be S tier, but my problem with like Mag in the state he was in nine point five was just he was just an out he was an output merchant. Like it didn't make sense to play anything else because of his output, and I think they addressed his output here. He's still insane at doing all the stuff that Magneto has always done, and he still does that a little bit better. But I don't think he's just a a raw output merchant to that level. Like, I'm really glad they didn't do

mung (01:38:42.767)
Just ridiculous.

Coach Mills (01:39:02.343)
fourteen seconds or fifteen seconds on this metallic, you know, cooldown. Cause I thought that they were gonna do just that and nothing else. I I do wish they nerfed that damage a little bit more on the sword, but it you know, I I I wanna give it a try. I think I think we're gonna all feel this. I don't think he's gonna be the most picked, most banned character in the game anymore.

mung (01:39:03.961)
Yeah, thank God.

Gallus (01:39:05.219)
Yeah.

CaptainCoach (01:39:05.528)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (01:39:22.459)
I do I think he also gate he's like the main thing that gatekeeped him at a in my opinion. and I think that that's gonna change. But but I guess we'll see. I guess we'll see.

Gallus (01:39:30.552)
Yeah. yeah, and the la last tiny point on like the the band manipulation tinfoil had or whatever. But with with what they've done to other tanks like Dino Emma, I think Magneto's just never gonna occupy a band slot. So you probably see him about as much. Right? So that it's like they've positioned him basically to avoid the band slot and still stay as prevalent as he is. Yeah.

Coach Mills (01:39:52.503)
okay, let's move on to a penny. can we skip penny? I'm gonna move on. I mean I mean, seriously though, like what the fuck does this even mean? Cyberweb Cyberweb cluster firing interval from point three to point two five seconds. Remove the self-slow effect when firing the clusters. When the team up selected with Black Panther, the cooldown is down five seconds from twenty seconds, and the enhanced effect.

Gallus (01:39:57.514)
Ooh

Gallus (01:40:02.496)
Woo!

Coach Mills (01:40:18.033)
means that you can reduce the firing interval even more from two point two to point one eight percent on this cyberweb cluster firing interval.

Gallus (01:40:27.128)
Yeah, that that enhanced is over five shots a second. That is insane. It's like, yes, they're they're gigabuffing using the Panther team up, so potentially not double nesting. Whatever, right? So maybe just nerf the double nest. But it it's a five second long shield. Like okay, what what's that? Nerf, what's that? Fucking five second five second long shield, fifteen second cooldown, I think. I think it's five seconds long.

Coach Mills (01:40:44.519)
What's the nerf, bro? The book? Hello?

Gallus (01:40:54.388)
I think if you made a penny on the flank, I don't know what you do against this, bro. Like this is scary as hell. it's it's a lot. This is a lot. This is really, really good, man. Yeah.

mung (01:40:58.211)
Yeah, shredded.

mung (01:41:04.249)
I don't think they need it I don't know, man. I I just don't like buffing Penny. I I don't think it's like I think it's a toxic character for the game overall. So I don't know. It's just unfun.

Gallus (01:41:11.394)
Yeah. Yeah, I don't know how much low ranks like her. Like everyone raise your hands. Who likes having to break the nest? Nobody? Yeah, I didn't fucking think so. Yeah.

Coach Mills (01:41:18.835)
I mean the only people that like this fucking character are Penny character Penny players. I that's it.

mung (01:41:22.661)
Yeah, no, that's it.

Coach Mills (01:41:25.395)
I mean, this character is this character is either irrelevant or broken in any one of my games. So like, I don't know. It's just whatever. I'm I'm bored over. Rogue? Okay. A lot of lot of changes to rogue. So regenerative shield capacity up 25 from 250 to 275. The defensive stance, energy regeneration speed when inactive, goes from 15 seconds to 25 seconds. So you're gonna get more of your energy for that defensive stance when you're not using it.

mung (01:41:30.157)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (01:41:51.655)
The consumption speed while it is active goes from 50 per second to 60 per second. increased defensive stance effect coverage rate from 23% to 30%. So you're you are gonna be consuming more when you're using your defensive stance, but it covers more. It's like bigger. and then increase the health gained when using it.

Gallus (01:42:11.382)
Yeah, I I don't know I don't know if that was sorry, I don't know if that was a translation error or something. Sorry, you keep going.

Coach Mills (01:42:17.575)
Yeah, I'm not I'm not sure. increase the maximum health gained when using ability absorption on Vanguard from one twenty five to one fifty. I mean overall, my thoughts is that this is I mean, they're nice buffs to the character. What matters more about Rogue, once again, is not her strength. It's mostly about how she lines up. and she still doesn't really line up well against all these hyper damaged characters. She doesn't really line up very well against

Emma, she doesn't really line up very well against Dino. She doesn't line up very well against Bucky or Elsa. But I do think that there's a band line that she's more viable. So like it it like she's good against some tanks, and she's she's good against some DPS. so it kind of depends. I think it's more you're more likely to have more playable rogue games, I will say that, just because of the band system.

CaptainCoach (01:43:06.594)
This to me this these are good ethical buffs. I I really like these buffs. And I think they tackle her in higher ranks and lower ranks. They it's universal. the regenerative shield is not something that really is going to be probably felt a whole lot because that's not really Rogue's gameplay roop loop a lot of the time. But I think that that sh having that shield up, Mills, I think will actually let her stay in fights and actually brawl with people. And it's gonna be more about the timing of how you use it because it does

Gallus (01:43:07.102)
Pretty much.

CaptainCoach (01:43:36.357)
drain faster. So you're gonna be able to have a lot more opportunities where if you time it well, you're gonna be able to charge that bad boy real quick and then get it up again to r to re retaliate. This is a bigger buff than y I think a lot of people realize. Like this is this is a really big buff. It's it's it's it's buffed to good rogues too. And and bad bad rogues will still feel it. It'll still feel nice. So 'cause they they may not use the reflect, but now they have a lot of extra defensive utility 'cause they'll be spamming it up more. I I think this is a really good

Gallus (01:43:43.148)
Yeah.

Gallus (01:43:47.906)
True, actually, yeah.

CaptainCoach (01:44:02.018)
good change. This is an example of like why why I I give netties so much props and why I give them shit for when they make bad changes. Like this is really clever. This is like a really this is like a really well designed change. It doesn't make her over the top or power creeper to some crazy amount. And I think the ability absorption

Gallus (01:44:02.776)
Yeah, I like that.

Gallus (01:44:15.33)
Yeah, I I don't think it I don't think it interferes with her identity is like a really big point. Yeah. I like a ceiling buff, good shit. Yeah.

mung (01:44:19.523)
Yeah, exactly.

Coach Mills (01:44:20.167)
That's a good point, yeah. It's a good point.

CaptainCoach (01:44:25.324)
Yeah, and then the the abs absorption on tanks, like it's probably the worst thing you could absorb in a lot of situations. Just the easiest. Yeah, yeah. Which most rogues do.

Coach Mills (01:44:30.333)
Yeah, more more reason. More reason to grab a tank. Yeah. Which is kind of like this kind of change where you're encouraging the other option is exactly what we're talking about with fucking team ups. so they understand the concept, but they have not implemented it. The hood. Jesus Christ. Okay, so 600 base HP down to 550.

mung (01:44:33.903)
I agree with that.

Gallus (01:44:44.12)
Yes.

Apply it, yeah. The hood.

mung (01:44:50.745)
Hood.

CaptainCoach (01:44:51.958)
You should probably take the lead on this one, Mill, since you played a lot.

Coach Mills (01:44:58.151)
The Mantle of Oblivion, which is the the Fent Walk shift ability, goes up to seconds from ten to twelve.

Gallus (01:45:06.83)
I don't know, I th I think that's the that's the right click, that one. The bubble. Yeah, it is. Yeah.

Coach Mills (01:45:09.747)
N is it? Okay, i if if if it is chat lied to me when I went over this in the patchness.

CaptainCoach (01:45:16.844)
Me too, actually, 'cause they told me it was the teleport.

Gallus (01:45:17.166)
'Cause I I I pulled up his hero page and I was like, shit, that's his right click. Cause chat was gaslighting me too. Let me I'm I'm pulling it up again.

Coach Mills (01:45:21.41)
Is it?

it is. Wait, Chad is Chad is straight up lying to me. What the fuck? Hello?

Gallus (01:45:28.45)
Yeah, right click is mantle of oblivion. It's the bubble. Yeah.

Coach Mills (01:45:31.237)
Alright, chat, chat legitimately lied to me. Alright, thank you, Chad. Yeah, I mean, what the heck? Okay, anyways, yeah, 10 to 12. Okay, so not the Fentwalk ability, it's the it's the bubble. the Abyssal Veil damage reduction ratio against enemy projectiles goes down fifteen percent from thirty-five percent to twenty percent. the damage to bonus health is

Gallus (01:45:35.032)
Void walk is the shift.

CaptainCoach (01:45:35.064)
That happened to me when I did my notes.

Coach Mills (01:45:56.359)
Conversion during the D the demon, the ultimate, goes down from sixty percent to fifty percent. And then with the team up with Moon Knight, the enhanced effect, the detection range for hood bouncing the bullets off of enemies after passing through his barrier, goes up from three meters to six meters. I think that was probably the weaker of the two team ups, so it makes sense. my take here is that they they nerfed him in all the right ways. And the the problem with the hood mostly comes due to his survivability. I don't want them to make his guns do no damage.

I don't want them to ruin his gameplay loop of like building up charge and going in aggressively. The problem is they felt like there was zero window where he was ever weak or vulnerable to die. Like there were games where he would just never die because he could just bubble into wall, into fade, into bubble wall, fade. Like he could just cycle these things, right? So hitting him surviv he they hit his survivability in three raids, right? The mantle, the health, and the veil reduction of damage. I think this is I think this is good. I th I honestly think this is the right way.

Gallus (01:46:33.432)
Yeah.

Gallus (01:46:50.85)
Yeah, when you say it like that, it's like God damn, Jesus.

Coach Mills (01:46:53.254)
Yeah yeah.

mung (01:46:53.829)
I mean, Mills, let me ask you, do you think that this is this is enough though? Cause I don't play the character. No? Okay, because that that's the whole point. It's hard to balance a hero like this.

Coach Mills (01:46:57.893)
No. No. No, no, no. He's still he's he's still he's still he's still he's still gonna be S tier. But you gotta think about Hood is a character that is really it's gonna be really hard to make him bad without nerfing his damage. Because Yeah. Because any amount of survivability nerf, like it's kind of like how it was with with tank pool, is like the damage is very relevant and good players can make themselves more survivable by just positioning better and timing their engagements better. But you can't

Gallus (01:47:03.768)
Still pretty good, yeah.

mung (01:47:11.075)
Yeah. It's either he's gonna be shit or he's gonna be good.

Gallus (01:47:14.744)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (01:47:28.451)
Like not necessarily like if you're already playing him close to the skill ceiling, you're not gonna just make your damage meaningfully better if he gets like a twenty-five percent damage nerf, right? You're just like not hitting the break points, which is what they did to pool. That's kind of what made him bad, is that they just like heavily nerfed his damage. Without nerfing his damage here, this is gonna be a nerf to like a lot of hoods that were LARPing on the character. I think the good hoods are still gonna be just as good.

It's kind of like, you know, like good Star Lords didn't need the H the shield gain on flip. They didn't need that. they would still they're still good Star Lords. but like the bad Star Lords definitely benefited from it. Like, like, I think these are the right type of nerfs to a character like this. He's probably still gonna be ARS tier, but he's definitely gonna be more healthy than he was before, and there's gonna be more windows where you can punish especially a bad hood.

Gallus (01:48:03.074)
Yeah.

CaptainCoach (01:48:16.066)
Yeah, just something to consider real quick when you talk about specifically tank balance is a a nerf to a tank's tankiness is inadvertently also a nerf to their damage. So just remember that because that means they can stay in fights longer because they're the ones typically taking the abuse, right? So that y a lot in a lot of situations that's what that means. So i if you wanted to see a damage nerf on on Hood, well, you got it. He's not gonna be able to stay in fights longer, he's gonna have to play differently. So but

Coach Mills (01:48:43.805)
He he is a character that gets to kind of offset the like part of the reason why he was so broken is he had all the survivability plus he doesn't have to engage in the same way that other tanks do. Cause he can play like these weird like close off angles that only one person can shoot at him back. and then like when they finally commit to him, then he had like all this fucking survival tool. So I still think he's gonna be really good, but I I agree with what y'all are saying, which is like he's gonna be noticeably weaker. I think they nerfed him in the right way.

Gallus (01:48:44.141)
Yeah.

mung (01:48:44.589)
Yeah, that's true.

CaptainCoach (01:49:00.984)
Right.

Coach Mills (01:49:12.635)
If they have to nerf him again, I would like that they keep going down this path. Like like don't nerf his damage, but keep nerfing his survivability in my opinion.

Gallus (01:49:17.122)
It's interesting.

Gallus (01:49:21.132)
I personally really liked how they introduced mitigation tools to this character because I thought he was just gonna be like a stat stick, whatever. Like he kind of is in a way. Like he vomits bullets everywhere. But I I was expecting them to adjust his damage. I was expecting something along those lines, but I agree with I don't know how much lower you can really make it like per bullet. you could make it a tiny bit lower. I think really

CaptainCoach (01:49:43.384)
Yeah.

Gallus (01:49:47.862)
if there's a problem with him, it's his ability to farm tanks or the incentive to farm tanks, especially at lower ranks. Like I feel like there should be some inverse relationship for how much lifesteal he has in in his form against squishies and against tanks. Like I feel like he should life s lifesteal based off how much max health of the target he's doing damage. Like of.

Coach Mills (01:50:10.43)
so you want him d more encouraged to shoot at tanks, is what you're saying?

CaptainCoach (01:50:11.066)
no less.

Gallus (01:50:12.822)
I want them to I want to I want them to encourage more shooting squishies so people so people learn it, etcetera. And also so it makes him worse at just sitting at the front.

mung (01:50:14.917)
Interesting.

CaptainCoach (01:50:17.111)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (01:50:19.003)
Reverse reverse damage reverse like like how Iron Fist does damage based on the max HP. I want reverse rever rever the less health you have, the the less max health you have, the more damage you do.

CaptainCoach (01:50:21.312)
I really like that, Gallus. I really like that.

Gallus (01:50:28.322)
Yeah. Yeah, it's it's yeah, however Yeah, the yeah, basically the less health the less health you have, the more he lifesteals off it. But I wouldn't want it to be really a whole lot more than it is now. It should be less against tanks, that's the point. And I I would have liked to see that direction for him because to be honest, I thought it was a creative they didn't explicitly add another shield to the game. They introduced the reduction and I think that was utility for something that was just gonna be guns and they just made a big DPS in on tank again.

And it was in a way it's creative utility in some way. But I I s I see the argument for everything and whatever. the veil is very good. so yeah, like see where he lands, but I I think I think the main thing for me is that the lower half of ranks are not gonna be able to make this guy work nearly as often just on the front line. And there's a there's a drought for that for for vanguards. Yeah.

Coach Mills (01:51:24.679)
I mean, yeah. I can see I can see what you're saying. Yeah. All right. We have arrived. We have arrived. reduce base health from seven fifty to seven twenty-five. Adjust the stone haymaker damage from fifty five plus ten percent of max health to fifty five plus eight percent of max health. So the difference in a six hundred HP enemy is instead of one fifteen, it's doing one three.

Gallus (01:51:31.971)
The thing.

mung (01:51:33.189)
Big one.

Coach Mills (01:51:50.621)
The the Yancy street charge cooldown goes up two seconds from ten to twelve, and the spell field duration, which is also the thing that prevents movement abilities, is down from five seconds to four seconds. And when selecting the team with human torch, increase the cooldown from fifteen seconds to eighteen seconds and reduces duration from ten seconds to eight seconds. So these are a lot of changes to this hero. What are your thoughts, Hmong? I want to start with you. What are your thoughts on the scare two?

Gallus (01:52:11.192)
God damn.

mung (01:52:17.029)
I still think the character's good. I'm gonna be honest with you. I don't think like I think Dino maybe takes his slot a bit for sure, but I I I think you're still gonna see the thing. I mean, realistically, the thing people aren't talking about, no pun intended, is the Invis team up. That's a very slept on team up for this character with survivability. Like go watch someone who plays Thing in high ELO, like someone like Khalel Mr or someone who like hit rank one. He was playing Thing, they were target banning his Fanta.

But he was running Invis team up, he was running Torch team up. I mean, is it a step in the right direction? Yes. Do I think he's maybe gonna be as meta? No. But I still think he's very, very good. I w it's situations where you already saw him, you're gonna keep seeing him.

CaptainCoach (01:53:00.172)
Yeah, I I agree. I think the number one thing I was looking for for the nerfs was the stone haymaker, his right click. Just and also remember that the damage nerf, which I think he needed a damage nerf, is also a shield nerf because his shield is based off the amount of damage he deals. I don't know exactly how much that's going to matter. I think maybe in single target

s situations you're gonna get less shield, but in multi-target situations where you're hitting multiple people with it as thing, you'll probably get the same max shield, is my guess, but I I haven't really done the numbers. But either way, good change. The biggest nerf to me though is the the ner nerf to the charge with the one of my chatters pointed it out to me that five s second duration on the spell field with max up time for a 10 second cooldown.

Gallus (01:53:36.13)
Yeah.

CaptainCoach (01:53:55.95)
It's down fifty percent of the time if you can keep it down all the time. Now, four out of twelve, that's only thirty three percent. So it's going to be down seventeen percent less than it was before, which I think again, I a lot of these heroes that I feel like are gate kept by broken mechanics just don't feel like they have windows of opportunity to ever really go in and make a play. So I think this is going to give like the BPs and whatever whatever magics a lot more options.

Coach Mills (01:54:19.279)
It it it's it's kinda interesting to me here because I've always thought that the thing was better like before this change, I thought the thing was better as an anti dive character mostly. or like a double like a double shield shield tank destroyer, but mainly like an anti dive character. And I thought that it would be healthy for the thing to revert his playstyle back to that. They instead went the opposite. Where they're like, We don't wanna fully gut this fighting, brawling playstyle of his.

But we are gonna heavily nerf the anti-dive aspects of this character. Cause I think that this character is not I mean, this is a big like anti-dive nerf to the character. I think you could actually play dive into thing and it not feel horrible. I mean, twelve seconds you can actually bait out this ability. Four seconds you can actually get out of this ability. I d like I just like five seconds is so fucking long. Where like I just know like when I'm Thor or whatever, like trying to get out within five seconds is like impossible.

But trying to get out within four like reasonable. I I I think that it's interesting the way they went with this character. I don't know if I agree with it fully. I I I kind of wish they would have just hit this fucking character extremely hard and like actually just straight up killed him. Like it it is kind of unfair. So here's the thing. I don't know. It it it to me it's unfair. When when we when we talk about it's okay that because we you and I have both had this kick take, Captain, where it's like, it's okay that BP is bad and

Gallus (01:55:23.331)
Yeah.

CaptainCoach (01:55:25.387)
Mm. This is kinda doing that. I see I I think this is I think you

mung (01:55:29.987)
They kills him.

Coach Mills (01:55:39.783)
Because he's unhealthy. And if they wanna if they want to add him to the meta, they need to rebout like they need to rework him to make him healthy before you reintroduce him to like being good. I think the same thing applies to thing. Like the to me, the character is not being treated the same, even though his design is just as unhealthy as Black Panther is. Personally, I would like them to more dramatically rework the character, but to play Devil's Advocate, I don't think he's gonna be anywhere near as strong as he was in ten. I think

CaptainCoach (01:56:06.446)
I I get what you're saying, but when you when a character is this strong, I I do think just kind of blanket nerfs for everything, just raw power is the first step. And then to me they targeted the the problem area, which is his his charge too. Like i it like if you're talking about like counterplay, like obviously his raw power was too high and that's why the right click got nerfed. But then yeah, like the the charge getting nerfed to me, thing was it was already not as good as Hood and I I think he

received about the same level of nerfs. Like I think Thing will actually yeah, like probably get overtaken, probably not be the pr a premier tank anymore. I think he'll probably be like A tier. He'll be good, but I I think he's gonna fall off I I

Gallus (01:56:41.438)
Yeah. Yeah.

mung (01:56:45.027)
No, he's still gonna be good. I mean, you gotta think about how ridiculous the thing was, though. How stat padded the hero was for him to be good in a meta where you're seeing poke, you're seeing Hood. Like he should have been like shot dead like Avatar where the navy were falling out of the helicopters and you heard the music in the background. That's what that should have been like, but he was surviving. That's what he was like. That's what that's what he was doing, though. It's ridiculous, bruh. we spoiled a a very old movie, My Bad Guys. What can we do?

Coach Mills (01:56:47.091)
I could see that.

Coach Mills (01:56:51.367)
Yeah yeah yeah.

Gallus (01:56:52.012)
Yeah, bruh.

CaptainCoach (01:56:52.418)
Yeah.

CaptainCoach (01:56:58.71)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (01:56:59.507)
SPOILER MOTHER FUCKUD

CaptainCoach (01:57:04.399)
R Shut up. Shut up.

Coach Mills (01:57:10.355)
shit.

mung (01:57:12.751)
Like I think it's good. I think he's still gonna be A tier. I you're gonna see him. You're still gonna see him under certain circumstances.

Gallus (01:57:15.86)
yeah, I think I think the thing that sticks out for me again after the team ups update is if he gets so much bonus health from hitting a group, then still why do you run the Invis one yet? not saying there isn't a place for it. I feel like they need to add drawbacks to the team ups to make them more interesting. So what they should have done with a torch team up is he doesn't generate bonus health with his right clicks when he uses it. That's it. Now there's a place to use it, now there's a risk to using it.

CaptainCoach (01:57:16.939)
Yeah.

CaptainCoach (01:57:42.934)
No

Coach Mills (01:57:43.313)
What what about this? What about this? You activate it and it puts you on fire. You're taking a little bit of damage the whole time. And so you have to hit every fucking haymaker to justify, you know, to to to make it a net positive. Heheheheh.

Gallus (01:57:55.34)
Yeah, yeah, and you and you have to be careful how you use it because he was overwhelming with pressure. That's just what it is. Like he was too survivable and he would just shred your front line. So it's just like the numbers coming out of one team just beats the other team's numbers. That's all he did. Right? So like I I like the

CaptainCoach (01:57:55.502)
Guys

CaptainCoach (01:58:00.789)
I was

Coach Mills (01:58:08.029)
We got a filthy d a filthy thing player about to say something.

CaptainCoach (01:58:08.162)
Gallus Gallus, what is wrong with you? Netties doesn't do risk versus reward. They just do reward. Like what do you tell like what do you d no why is the that's too good of idea to be in this game? Like, what are we doing?

Gallus (01:58:14.306)
I date.

mung (01:58:15.471)
They just buff.

Coach Mills (01:58:19.475)
Alright, we're skipp we're skip we're skipping the Thor. We're skipping the Thor. We're skipping the Thor. Thor didn't get any changes. Neither did Hawk. Okay, alright, we'll talk about Thor. real quick. Three hundred to three twenty five base health. You get f ten more damage. Okay, nice. Ten more damage when people leave the bubble. and the Angela team up is down five seconds.

Gallus (01:58:20.483)
My bad.

I'm sorry. Like what

CaptainCoach (01:58:26.21)
You're taking a big risk saying this. you're about to I don't know.

CaptainCoach (01:58:38.852)
I'm gonna go get a energy drink. I'll be right back. I don't care about this.

Coach Mills (01:58:50.067)
Okay. I mean this this change is like legitimately irrelevant, like actually irrelevant?

Gallus (01:58:53.996)
Look, o out of everything here it's pretty benign. I I think it's j he it just makes him better like when he grabs a squishy and isolates them, I don't know what they can do when they keep buffing him with these tools specifically, like

mung (01:58:56.772)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (01:59:04.465)
I mean it doesn't it but he's already really good at that. Like it doesn't really meaningfully like it just doesn't meaningfully change anything about him is my p and and for some reason they don't they don't like the

Gallus (01:59:07.8)
That's the thing, right?

mung (01:59:11.567)
I've been seeing a lot of Thors use the Angela team up a lot more. So maybe that that's a a buff, a noticeable buff if you use that. But I mean

Gallus (01:59:17.496)
Yeah. And and this is like a this goes with that theme of I I there's a lot more back line access.

Coach Mills (01:59:19.093)
no no no no. True Thor's use the hella team up. I'ma say it right now. No, I'm just kidding. I I like the hella team up because I ain't a little too much, so it like saves me. Yeah, I mean it's just it's just a nonsense change, but like w at this stage of the patch list when I read it, I said Sit like Thor didn't need changes. Thor has never need changes. What he what he needs is for the characters that counter him to be nerfed or or meaningfully changed. Thing now, it's like I actually think that Thor

Gallus (01:59:26.783)
okay, yeah. Well

Gallus (01:59:39.576)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (01:59:48.027)
Like before it felt like I did net zero damage to the thing, and now I feel like I could probably do a little bit of damage to him, which is cool. I wish that there was, you know, some of the other DPS, spoiler we'll get to, got nerfed more. but like these changes don't matter. The the patch as a whole getting changed matters way more. so yeah, and that and also l more double bands. A character that never gets banned, the the fact that there's no no double bands is good for Thor. I mean, there's just gonna be more there's gonna be

Six unique broken shit not in my game. More likely that Thor could be good. Any any character that is not gonna be among the top six characters in the game is gonna get or the top ten characters in the game is actually just all automatically getting buffed because of the the the band system. You're never gonna have like only three bands, right? You're always gonna have you are always gonna have six. So I'll take that. before we move on, there is one character that is noticeably not included on here.

And I think it's a really important character to talk about Venom. No, I'm just kidding. Hulk. Hulk is not on here. What are your thoughts about that, Captain Coach? Is that Hulk is

Gallus (02:00:50.424)
Yeah.

CaptainCoach (02:00:50.584)
Mm-hmm.

CaptainCoach (02:00:56.254)
you want me to go first? I I thought you wanted to get someone else. I'm a Gore the God butcher main, Mills. Yeah, Hulk's dead in a ditch somewhere, bro. What are we doing? Bottom three tank. We're not gonna even give him a little little love. Like, whatever, bro. I when I saw no Hulk changes, I was like truthfully, my my initial reaction was yes. That means

Coach Mills (02:01:00.471)
shit shit That's no.

Gallus (02:01:01.622)
Ha ha ha.

mung (02:01:01.721)
don't know about Hulk anymore, man. Well who's Hulk?

Coach Mills (02:01:12.733)
That's

CaptainCoach (02:01:20.258)
The duelists that we're about to go through are all getting nerved. Lo and behold, to my surprise,

Coach Mills (02:01:25.617)
we cannot talk about it. It's a spoiler. All right. Yeah, but Yeah. That's very funny.

CaptainCoach (02:01:29.344)
So yeah, obviously Hulk could use a buff. this I I'm gonna say, i i if Captain Coach says this, what I'm about to say, then it is a canon event. Hulk is now at the point where he needs probably a re a rework.

Coach Mills (02:01:35.399)
That's crazy that it's actually not

Gallus (02:01:46.1)
That sucks man. He's so cool.

mung (02:01:46.799)
Really.

CaptainCoach (02:01:47.97)
Yeah. Yeah. Like a mini one, but i it it's just if we just keep buffing these heroes and don't like you can't just in keep making him more mobile. Like he's not he's gonna be like a gnat or like a spider rather than a fucking a big bruiser. So you're gonna have to rework

Coach Mills (02:01:59.56)
No. And every here every punch every punch reduces his bubble cooldown by two seconds. Just make him jump and bubble, jump and bubble, jump and bubb I don't know. Da what are they gonna do eventually to this hero to power creep him till he's stays relevant?

mung (02:02:14.211)
That would be that'd be something.

CaptainCoach (02:02:17.63)
Is that is that Hulk though? Does that feel like Hulk? Just spamming a shield on yourself? Like it's like no. You should be big, you should be powerful. You your your punches should have weight.

Coach Mills (02:02:22.971)
I don't know. I don't know. All right. Give him give him twelve hundred HP. I don't I don't fucking know. I I I really love I would love a mechanic where the less HP he has, the more he does, the more damage he does. Like at very low HPs, he does like crazy damage would be cool. Cause then you're rewarded from pulling like going in at like it'd be you it would be really rewarding if you could jump in at like 120 HP, like two tap a fucking squishy, pop your ultimate.

I don't know. But

CaptainCoach (02:02:53.748)
I my prediction is actually that they're reworking them and that's why they didn't give him any changes. They're they're doing like a mini rework. I think something along the lines of slowing down his jump charge, but potentially making it able to go further and just giving weight to all his attacks, like more damage but slower, just kind of slowing him down, make him that easy to hit target that everybody wants to shoot at, but you're going to not get as much value from it. But Hulk now has like less windows to be able to.

like stay on some like a person. It it's it it's the only way I think if they just increase his raw numbers that he's gonna be able to survive right now. Cause right now he you have to just your movement movement on him has to be so good. It to the point where it like you're watching a Hulk go. It's like don't even look like Hulk. It's like what what is that? Like it he he he's not really right. Like I I gotta do so much crazy shit. Like you should go watch my recent video my most recent video mills. Like some of the shit I'm doing. Like I am like zipping around the map and I'm like

Coach Mills (02:03:40.632)
Buddy hop in and fucking like

mung (02:03:42.137)
Legit.

CaptainCoach (02:03:51.437)
Yeah, it's cool, but that's not really what Hulk is. So, like I'm gonna miss it. But to me, based off of the direction, reading the writing on the wall, Hulk is at the point where, sadly, probably needs a rework, which

mung (02:04:02.168)
Well, it's also just bad it's like so sad because you're putting in such a high amount of effort versus someone else could just sit in on Magneto play down lane and it's kinda like everything you do is just what's the point? So I don't know what they would do for him. Like we'll see. It's it's upsetting.

CaptainCoach (02:04:11.672)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (02:04:14.215)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, imagine a couraging skill.

CaptainCoach (02:04:15.415)
Yeah.

Yeah. So I I'll be I'll my this will be the first season where I play someone more than Hulk. This will be the first one. It'll it'll unless I just don't like gore at all, then I'll play Dino. So yeah, there it is. Yeah.

Coach Mills (02:04:19.795)
Wrong game.

Coach Mills (02:04:29.139)
Shit, let's go. boom. okay, we're finally at the duelist. we're finally, finally here. Duelist first one, black cat. There's a wall of text. Okay. The invincibility effect on her phantom pursuit now grants fifty percent damage reduction and unstoppable, but it's not invincible anymore. Reduce the fortune consumed to cast Phantom Pursuit by 50.

mung (02:04:29.743)
Jesus.

Coach Mills (02:04:59.015)
And you get the fortune gained when hitting enemies, reduce that by 25. The helmet of Hades duration from 2 to 3 seconds and adjust movement decay from 2 to 3 seconds. New effect when using the helmet of Hades, Black Cat's movement trail will now be visible and her full form will be revealed periodically. So this is her invisible ability. Increase the volume of the footstep sound of Black Cat. And

The new team up with Panther, a new effect upon hitting an enemy with the ability, gained fifty fortune per enemy hit capped at 100. That teamup was not used at all, so this is like more of a reason to play that team up.

I'ma real quick give my thoughts. I I think this is a very, very good rework, personally. Because it addressed it addressed the two pain points I had with this character, which is even if she's one fucking HP, I can't shoot her. And when she goes invisible, I can't find her. It just I felt like I was fighting a fucking ghost. And now I actually am fighting a real character. So that's my that's my thoughts.

Gallus (02:05:54.146)
Yeah.

I think the yeah. The trail change is really good. I agree with Light in that I think the iframes might have been necessary, but you needed to decrease the frequency by literally like double the cooldown. it was that times the invis, and the invis needed to be more expensive. I'm not actually against this change either though, and I'm actually impressed that they addressed iframes. Like they I I I was almost I was almost gonna be like, do they even know that it's like a problem?

Coach Mills (02:06:19.165)
Thank God. Holy shit.

Coach Mills (02:06:23.955)
Holy

CaptainCoach (02:06:24.706)
They know there's iframes on their premier diver. They have gallus.

Gallus (02:06:26.187)
you brought it.

mung (02:06:26.221)
No, it's just too much, man.

Gallus (02:06:30.734)
Do they notice in the game? yeah, man, like I I'm all for this. I I don't know enough about the nuance of her economy for the for the fortune stuff, but she might still have insane uptime, which is what I'm getting from this. But you can punish her a bit easier, you know. she won't vanish, basically. You know, if she get if she would get out with Invis. Yeah.

mung (02:06:45.955)
Yeah, I have to figure that too.

mung (02:06:53.093)
Yeah, I think that I think it's a good change. I mean, I listen, I understand what Light was saying too, I get it, but realistically, man, everybody's crying about it. They nobody likes the iframe. I think this is probably the best way they could have done it. the thing that's kinda weird about it though is the Black Panther team up, I don't think you ever picked that anyways. Like, why would you? Like the Spider Man team, but you just do insane damage. So that's kind of like a nothing burger.

Coach Mills (02:07:15.763)
Well it's also it's also about ki it's also keeping your your fo your fortune up. So like because because this gains you fortune now, it might be an alternative that is worth using. 'Cause before like that's the problem is that like you didn't get enough.

Gallus (02:07:27.926)
I I don't know.

mung (02:07:29.797)
I don't I don't think they would pick that to be honest, man.

Gallus (02:07:31.638)
I do wonder if the devs think that like the rest of the items in her shop are low-key broken and no one's just using them. But I I maybe maybe with this iteration of her, because she she can keep the fortune up and like spam the the Phantom Pursuit like cooldown more, like then maybe then maybe using like the CC cleanse and shit like that. There's a bit more room for that. But I think like I'm not an authority on Black Cat, to be honest, so I don't know how much better that is really.

mung (02:07:56.399)
Yeah.

Gallus (02:08:01.472)
Otherwise, yeah, great. I like it.

Coach Mills (02:08:01.575)
Hope the ca I hope the character is noticeably weaker. I hope I hope she's like a lot weaker. I'm I'm I'm I'm always afraid that they don't do enough for characters that are this strong. Like I really don't want another season where Black Cat feels like she has to be on the ban like the ban list. which might be the case still, but we'll I guess we'll see. I I I yeah.

mung (02:08:19.725)
Could be.

CaptainCoach (02:08:20.738)
It really depends how the the helmet works, like the stealth, 'cause it it does last longer. It gives apparently I mean it did it they're doing exactly kind of what we wanted them, or at least what I wanted. But i if she still gets that instant stealth and then there's like a second where she s has basically what the ability was before this nerf, then it's she's still gonna be good. But if if she stealths and immediately you s you see her flash and you and you see that trail and you know it's it's really just gonna d depend on how it's how it's implemented, yeah.

Coach Mills (02:08:47.815)
How it's implemented. I I got you. Yeah, that's a good point.

mung (02:08:49.701)
I th I think from how it's worded Yeah, okay I was gonna say I think from how it's worded you could see it permanently.

Gallus (02:08:49.922)
Yeah, I g I've got I've got a clip of it actually.

CaptainCoach (02:08:54.143)
perfect.

Coach Mills (02:08:55.845)
Let me stop my share. Can you share the sc your screen?

Gallus (02:08:58.766)
It's a yeah, yeah, I could do that. give me a sec. Where is my Okay, how do I do this? Wait actually how do I do this? share screen.

Gallus (02:09:17.112)
There we go. You see it?

CaptainCoach (02:09:17.378)
Minute for the long long haul boys, I just ordered McDonalds. Here we go.

Coach Mills (02:09:20.837)
shit. I got pizza downstairs. Let's for that later.

Gallus (02:09:24.022)
A clip of Aramori's stream? it's pixelated as far.

Coach Mills (02:09:27.988)
that's great.

CaptainCoach (02:09:28.718)
wow. Wait, can you slow mow it?

mung (02:09:29.081)
Yeah, that's good.

Gallus (02:09:30.408)
Yeah, yeah. It's very visible. Yeah, yeah.

Coach Mills (02:09:32.497)
Look at that. Yeah, look at that. That's crazy. You just get to follow her.

CaptainCoach (02:09:34.538)
Wait, that's that's not even stealth. You could do you could see her. Wait, hold up. When I wanna see when she goes stealth, right nah what? wait, yeah, that's she's nerfed shit dude.

Coach Mills (02:09:42.033)
Right there, yeah.

Gallus (02:09:45.443)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (02:09:49.555)
I mean, I think she's still probably gonna be playable. But he here here's the thing. Here, so wait, wait, wait. I I so I have a I have a really hot take here. or this is a this is a a real take. Can you D screen share for a second? we moved where all of us were. here's my hot take. This character has to be played l as a dive character. Because up until this point, this character has not been a fucking dive character. I've gotten so many messages about this where dive is broken, dared or black cat.

CaptainCoach (02:09:54.255)
that's way worse than I thought it'd be.

Coach Mills (02:10:19.035)
Is like the worst character to play into. Black Cat was one of the best DPS in the game, if not the best DPS in the game, in a meta without any dive enablement at all. No dive tanks, no other dive DPS, no dive support. She can operate completely independently and completely suck resources from the team or just kill them outright. She is not a fucking dive character. She was just a resource, like complete denier, plus just like forcing out every cooldown. Now she has to play as a diver.

This character is still gonna be good if she goes in with a cap or goes in with the venom or goes in with another dive. She's still gonna be very, very good. But in isolation, she's gonna get fucked up because there's actual counterplay to her that never existed before. I don't wanna I don't wanna like I understand like lights take or whatever, like all these like dive freaks takes, but like this character, in my opinion, is gonna be way more healthy in the game. And they didn't nerf any of her damage output.

Gallus (02:10:51.256)
Yeah.

mung (02:11:10.693)
Well that I mean

Gallus (02:11:13.56)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (02:11:17.095)
Which is a big deal. Like she's still gonna be able to fucking destroy people. Like she was able to before. So like

Gallus (02:11:21.954)
Yep. Yep. And the whip is still incredible and Yeah, yeah. well who's who's she gonna be diving with?

mung (02:11:23.535)
I mean you know who she's gonna be diving with, right? Like someone if in a little bit lower in the patch. Someone a little bit lower in the patch will be getting to soon. So you're gonna be seeing some some scary moments with her anyways. Like she's still probably gonna still very good.

Gallus (02:11:31.714)
Yeah,

There's there's also like for me there's the the gore question as well because like from what I've seen like his cleave and his ability to hit groups is pretty decent. And I am wondering with what they're doing with heroes like Cap, etc. etcetera, if there are quite a few and like Scarlet we'll get to as well. there's quite a few options to do like AoE damage to a clumped up backline that's infinitely sustaining.

And I do wonder if there's like enough options now to literally just layer all these on top of each other and you d you guys just AoE kill the back line and just destroy them. like we'll like we'll see. We'll see.

mung (02:12:09.989)
I'm gonna get a water, I'll be back in a second.

Coach Mills (02:12:13.169)
I actually love Gore's interesting to me because he just he feels like he's almost slow and sluggish, but his cooldowns are so powerful. It's crazy. Like it just feels like I mean, he feels like almost like a spellcaster like what what Captain Kush was talking about. Very I'm very interested in how that character will affect the game.

Gallus (02:12:22.04)
Yeah.

CaptainCoach (02:12:28.642)
He he's gonna be good because he has not one, but I believe two instant teleports on top of range options. That's s something that Blade and Fant, who I feel like are kinda in a similar area, don't really have. Is that instant get in, get out type ability. So I I think that's gonna be real and he it it seems like his damage really?

Coach Mills (02:12:34.599)
Yeah.

Gallus (02:12:35.042)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (02:12:46.759)
Yeah, that makes sense.

Gallus (02:12:48.75)
It's like it's a three second cooldown as well. It it's fucking insane. Like

Coach Mills (02:12:53.777)
That's I'm I'm I'm excited for him, but he I mean hey let's be honest, guys. It's a new hero. He's gonna be broken. Like we already know. Like let's not act surprised when he's broken. He's gonna be. He's already we already know. I know. okay, Black Widow, the red wait, wait, wait. I'm not sharing my screen. I'm not sharing my screen. okay. Black Widow, the primary, the fall off goes down in st at forty meters from seventy-five to sixty-five percent.

mung (02:13:02.989)
a hundred percent. Yeah.

Gallus (02:13:10.904)
Wait, share, share it back. Yeah.

Coach Mills (02:13:22.705)
And the ultimate is now three hundred more.

CaptainCoach (02:13:28.344)
Good nerf. Not enough.

mung (02:13:29.263)
Yeah.

Gallus (02:13:29.39)
Sure. Sure with minor like balance.

Coach Mills (02:13:30.841)
It's probably too probably too light on this character, I'm not gonna lie. But devil's advocate. I think Divers is divers can dive tanks especially can actually contest this character. some DPS that are buffed like Starlord and Silock can also contest this character. So like I like that's my devil's advocate for it, but yeah, she would definitely undoubtedly was one of the best DPS in the game and she didn't really get hit that hard, but

CaptainCoach (02:13:54.518)
Yeah. I would like to see a bit more. I just really just target at at her damage. I I'm glad they at least got some some of it, but forty meters is like y you'll see that sometimes with like a flank widow trying to harass, but they they they do.

mung (02:14:02.253)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (02:14:05.329)
I mean she she do they do it a lot. I mean, Widow especially is so annoying 'cause of her range.

CaptainCoach (02:14:11.468)
Yeah, i it's a good nerf. It's a good nerf.

Gallus (02:14:13.998)
Yeah, it's funny. I feel like the hero post rework is already having an identity crisis because of this. Like she's kinda the sniper character. Like, yes, it's more of just like a rifle now, sure. But this is harsher fall off than Punish's gun. Just FYI. Like

Coach Mills (02:14:21.194)
Yeah.

CaptainCoach (02:14:30.06)
Okay.

Coach Mills (02:14:30.075)
Yeah. I mean i i surprise, surprise, gals, we there's no other game that could have possibly told us this. Sniper characters are not fucking fun to play against. When when they sit at a range that you can't do anything about, that's not interactive. It's just not. I mean I'm

CaptainCoach (02:14:39.592)
Hey, you got two strikes.

Gallus (02:14:45.964)
Yep. Yep. True.

CaptainCoach (02:14:50.582)
You got two strikes.

Gallus (02:14:50.894)
True. He didn't say it.

Coach Mills (02:14:52.029)
my god, these fucking streamers just want to make rivals Overwatch. We don't fucking care about that game. Hey no, no, no, you can't. You said it twice. It's over. No, I'm just I I I read the comments and that's like half the complaints, by the way, is we can't we can't reference that at all. I I don't know, I don't really know what it w what it is. Maybe it's they they they say that the game can't be that, or maybe they feel like they were not included in the fucking party that we had.

Gallus (02:14:57.43)
No, I want them to not make the same mistakes so I'm not playing Overwatch. I don't want to play Overwatch, that's the fucking point.

mung (02:14:59.183)
It's it's the opposite.

Gallus (02:15:05.144)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (02:15:21.905)
Because they never played the game. I don't know. I don't know what it is. Don't br we can't bring it up. We can't bring it up. There's too much hate.

Gallus (02:15:28.782)
Appeal to you're not allowed to like learn anything from any other product in a market fallacy or some shit. Like

Coach Mills (02:15:32.785)
No. No, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Whatever that is. Yeah. Cannot I c I I can't use any of my experience or any of the fact that we have went through the same bullshit that we're going through now in a lot of ways, but whatever. It just matters.

Gallus (02:15:47.448)
I'm getting water you guys.

Coach Mills (02:15:49.912)
Blade.

mung (02:15:50.403)
Blade. I mean, I'd love to I'd love to like start on one. I've playing a lot of blade. I a Blade the Celestial challenge. Yeah, yeah.

Coach Mills (02:15:54.533)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Let me let me let me let me read the changes and then I'll let I'll let you go 'cause just so that they can hear it at home. Team team up with Captain America base effect, gain two additional max stacks of bloodline awakening, and the enhanced effect is increase the extra max stacks from two to four. So I think you can have fourteen, right?

mung (02:16:13.077)
Yeah. so basically the Captain America team up beforehand like one of the lowest effort like cosmetic team ups I've ever seen. Basically all it was if you didn't have cap on your team, which you basically never did, right? You essentially when you went in bloodline awakening mode, like when you pressed your E, you would gain stacks upon the damage you take. That was pretty much it. Versus you had Moon Knight where you gained a whole extra dash, which is that's you know, extra movement's always good.

That's saved my life many times. And then you also got the actual Moonblade projectiles, which was also very, very good for pressuring. Like you go onto the back line. Let's say they're together, you shift onto them, anti-heal into like a a bl into the team up and you almost you probably kill them, man. Most of the half the time you probably would. So you had no reason to ever use cap. Them adding the this was the enhanced effect was the two stacks into the base. Makes it maybe slightly more viable. It's a bit more damage.

With cap now, I gotta see how what that's like with 14 stacks. That unironically could be very good, because you're probably gonna see cap now a little bit. Cause the moon knight team up upgraded unironically is like really, really strong with Blade. But you never get to play that. So having it like an actual enhanced effect that might be in the lobby is is really good for the character.

Coach Mills (02:17:29.139)
I'm glad you're excited. Cause I think that they fucking hate this character, I'm not gonna lie.

mung (02:17:34.379)
I mean I I don't I think he slept on. I I think Blade's not that bad, man, I'm gonna be honest.

CaptainCoach (02:17:38.881)
I mean

Coach Mills (02:17:39.313)
I I sh I'll be sure. Good good.

CaptainCoach (02:17:41.592)
Do you think I just kinda going with current things happening right now, if Blade's mobility was like gore's, do you think he would be broken? Like instant instead of the dash forward?

mung (02:17:55.225)
I don't know, that's a good one. I have to see how everything plays out. I mean, I don't think Blade's like a an A plus tier, S tier hero. I think he's just he's serviceable. Like what you what do you expect for them to do with this type of character? He's got insane HP reserves, like he's got good sustain. You know, it is what it is with Blade, right?

CaptainCoach (02:18:11.51)
Yeah. Yeah, I I I like this change. I think it's it's cool. I d I didn't know that it was yeah.

mung (02:18:15.333)
Yeah, I think it's good. I think that's a that's a good rework for the team up.

Coach Mills (02:18:19.127)
They might have backed themselves into a hole with Blade's design. I'm not gonna lie. Cause like you said, like he he does have crazy survivability and good mobility. If they just gave him like Bucky's gun with ante, he did just like break the game like instantly.

mung (02:18:22.681)
Probably.

mung (02:18:32.389)
Wow, you'd be busted. You'd be busted. It would be it would be insane.

CaptainCoach (02:18:38.22)
My I idea for Blade was just to kind of completely just go fully away from the gun damage altogether, make it do basically no damage. Yeah, like just make the gun just tickle you, like literally do n I it kind of already does, but like do even less damage, but have it have it like lower your cooldowns when you you in land shots.

Gallus (02:18:38.36)
Mm-hmm.

Coach Mills (02:18:46.281)
you think the the character called Blade shouldn't should use his fucking blade? Okay.

Coach Mills (02:18:55.251)
Yeah.

mung (02:18:58.083)
May I could be wrong about this. I think he I think he's fine the way he is. I like his design.

CaptainCoach (02:19:01.566)
Okay. Fair enough.

Gallus (02:19:04.482)
Yeah. I agree with that. I I think it was a shame when they nerfed his shotgun a little while back. not that I think he should be like dependent on it or whatever, but I think it it took a l took away a a lot of the cool factor a bit. Like it the there's there was a lot of that that thing was a fucking shotgun. Like it Yeah.

Coach Mills (02:19:04.519)
Any thoughts, Gallus, or?

mung (02:19:23.269)
It was cool.

Coach Mills (02:19:26.628)
okay.

Gallus (02:19:27.576)
Otherwise, yeah. No, good change. Cool. fucking pick him against Dino, maybe? Was that ever happening? Yeah.

mung (02:19:32.207)
Maybe. Yeah, you can.

Coach Mills (02:19:33.127)
Maybe. Yeah, he was actually seeing some play against Dino in Dino Meta, surprisingly. I think at 14 stacks. How fast is this motherfucker swinging? Cause that's what he can get. He can get up to 14 stacks.

Gallus (02:19:37.762)
Yeah, well there you go. All right.

mung (02:19:44.589)
He's moving fast. He's moving that's probably pretty good.

Gallus (02:19:45.582)
I don't know. I does it does it increase does he increase further or does it just is it like a buffer before he starts decreasing from ten? Is that how it behaves? Yeah, yeah.

Coach Mills (02:19:51.377)
No no, max stacks. Max stacks. So he can go he can go up to fourteen.

mung (02:19:53.849)
No, this is maxed out, yeah.

Gallus (02:19:56.61)
Yeah, yeah, I know. It just I I never noticed the twelve didn't feel faster than ten, right?

mung (02:20:02.38)
It's it's very, very minimal twelve, but fourteen might be noticeable now.

Gallus (02:20:05.142)
Okay, okay, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, okay. All right, sweet.

Coach Mills (02:20:08.883)
Elsa Fucking Bloodstone. Yeah, they kill this character. We can just move on. No, in my the monster piercer damage per shot from 13 to 0.8% of maximum health to 12 plus 0.8% of maximum health. Reduce the bonus health gained during casting advanced helix and ruthless pursuit from 30 to 25. And when selecting

Gallus (02:20:15.608)
Haha.

mung (02:20:16.37)
Yeah, I don't know.

Coach Mills (02:20:38.535)
The Devil Dino team up. Increase the smoky snare cooldown from twelve to fifteen. Wow, dude. my god, they fuck they killed this character. I cannot believe. No, I'm just kidding. This is

CaptainCoach (02:20:45.047)
Wow.

Yeah. Well they clearly just don't care about heroes that aren't big in the Marvel IP, obviously guys.

Coach Mills (02:20:52.699)
Wha Why do they like this character, bro? Like why? She doesn't even have any Gunnar skins. I don't understand. Like I don't get it. What the fuck?

CaptainCoach (02:21:01.822)
Ha ha ha.

mung (02:21:04.685)
What what what patch was it when they upped her ammo count? I thought that was one of the dumbest changes ever.

Coach Mills (02:21:10.919)
What why does she get a flat damage increase when you pick the Devil Dino team up, by the way? Why is that in the game?

Gallus (02:21:11.606)
Mm.

mung (02:21:18.799)
Good question.

CaptainCoach (02:21:20.888)
Can someone tell me why she gets shield?

mung (02:21:22.755)
You did you not know that? You didn't know that? my god. No, she gets like a straight up damage boost from the double dino team up.

Coach Mills (02:21:24.623)
It's dumb as hell. Look what it's actually stupid. Straight up. Where

Gallus (02:21:24.68)
I f I fucking didn't know that bro. I try to keep her out of my I try to keep her out of my head, alright?

for God's sake. Yeah, okay, maybe nerf that with a dino teen up. Not the cool the cooldown. my god, it's still complete bullshit like every fifteen seconds. Like I I don't think that was really cooldown dependent, bro. She puts the trap down and it's like, whoops, I'm dead. Like fifteen seconds, yeah, until I come back from spawn. Like w what is this change? Okay.

Coach Mills (02:21:36.798)
Yeah.

Gallus (02:21:55.854)
Scroll down to the yeah, yeah, yeah.

Coach Mills (02:21:58.387)
Base studs?

Gallus (02:22:00.452)
look at the yeah.

Coach Mills (02:22:03.251)
I don't see where it says it, but it definitely does it. Yeah, it doesn't maybe that's why it's not maybe that's why people don't know because it's not here, but it is true. Are we deadass?

mung (02:22:05.121)
It d i it it it does, Brad. She d she she gets a boost.

mung (02:22:12.813)
I don't even think it's listed. You could just compare it.

Gallus (02:22:15.47)
Yeah, it's not listed. I would have remembered. my f well.

Coach Mills (02:22:20.379)
Let's see.

CaptainCoach (02:22:24.461)
The the power.

Coach Mills (02:22:24.595)
I'm gonna go the wiki. I'm going to the wiki. I am going to the wiki because the w you know, the wiki might tell the truth. somewhere.

Gallus (02:22:37.902)
I think it's all the way down.

Coach Mills (02:22:39.432)
Would it be?

Gallus (02:22:41.57)
The balance history.

CaptainCoach (02:22:42.978)
You're right, there are no Gunnar skins. sorry. I had to do my research.

Coach Mills (02:22:47.937)
Horror.

Yeah, look, double barrel blaster damage five per pellet instead of four point five.

CaptainCoach (02:22:57.06)
that's what you were asking? I knew that. Yeah, they they nerfed it by five damage instead of taking a hit at the percentage maximum health, which is clearly what the issue is.

Coach Mills (02:23:05.319)
No, 'cause well look, 'cause like the double barrel blaster damage does four point five per pellet. But it does five per pellet when you select the devil dinotima. Because why? 'Cause why?

Gallus (02:23:14.126)
That's ridiculous.

mung (02:23:16.526)
W Net Ease. I love that change. I think we should actually buff it, in my opinion.

Coach Mills (02:23:22.835)
Bro. I don't understand. Like, do they not understand that Elsa, in my opinion, had like I don't think that this character has weaknesses. Legitimately. She has a she has a top two ultimate in the DPS c slot. She's good against tanks. She's good against divers. She's good against other poke characters. She's good against supports because of her ultimate.

CaptainCoach (02:23:23.094)
Mm mm mm.

CaptainCoach (02:23:36.301)
No.

CaptainCoach (02:23:47.966)
Who do you have higher altwise? Wolf?

Coach Mills (02:23:50.565)
It's between her and Wolf. That's the those are the two best ones in my opinion. I I like I don't know which like I think you could make an argument for either or. I think like effectively the Elsa one plays better because you like you can build your ult without ever taking risk on this character, basically. just like like the actual building of the ultimate, unlike Wolf that has to like go in and this comps the counter him. Elsa's not so much. So she can just sit there and build an ult.

CaptainCoach (02:23:52.813)
Right.

Coach Mills (02:24:17.393)
Like there's some games that Elsa's literally like what I would call Okay, I'm making an overwatch reference. Calm down, chat. A blade bot, which is what happened to Genji, where they basically heavily nerfed his neutral and they made it so that the only thing you could do on this character is like poke till you get an ultimate and you win the game with an ultimate. Elsa can do stuff in the neutral, she's really strong there, but she also just like in the games where it's hard to find any line, she can just play for ultimate and just like win fights just by itself. Completely isolated. Doesn't need a combo.

CaptainCoach (02:24:44.994)
My yeah, I kinda like where you're going with with that line of reasoning. My thought on why they keep this hero really good is because by design they kind of want her to associate dealing damage with with a certain level of risk and and we've kind of talked about about it before. They don't really like having heroes with too much risk. You look at the the damage they deal, like any time a tank gets close to you, they they don't get to play the game.

So you're you're there you're no risk being up near the front lines. But then you look at the shield, any kind of burst that you have from like another DPS focusing you, that shield is obnoxious. She could do with no shield. It could just be the mobility alone is is providing her like enough survivability. Like where's the shield for Star Lord then? Because he does something similar, probably takes more risk, right? so to me, I just it's it they just do not know how to balance this hero. I we're we're at that point. And then three seconds on trap, like can we at least

D give the the traps the black cat treatment? Like let's l let us right let us see Maybe they're popping out of the ground or something. Like I it that's not fun. I don't agree with that, but like give like we need something. It's the this mechanic is

Gallus (02:25:43.582)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (02:25:46.385)
Yeah, make him suitable, yeah.

Gallus (02:25:56.632)
They they should the traps should trigger and then not snare you for a full second. So if you see it happening you can step out of it or destroy it. Like that's how it should work. Yeah.

CaptainCoach (02:26:04.79)
I'd be cool with a slow.

Coach Mills (02:26:06.181)
Or or or like you could look down and shoot it, right? Like and break it would be cool. like another like like like well like that was a there was I th I've I've played games I forgot what game it was where like you could respond to it really quickly and deal with I forgot I there's been games that I've played

CaptainCoach (02:26:11.074)
That'd be that'd look pretty funny in game, I think when people do that.

CaptainCoach (02:26:22.074)
yeah. Like horror games I'm thinking. Like that maybe

Coach Mills (02:26:26.875)
Yeah, you s you step in a trap, you have to hit it, maybe it's a small moving hitbox or something, but you instantly hit it, you break out of it right away. It's like a skill check type thing. Here's here's what I don't understand. How are you gonna nerf the cool like how are you gonna nerf that team up without just taking away the flat damage buff?

Like like you obviously know it's the overperformer. The flat damage buff was put in because you thought it was gonna be the underperformer, and you were fucking wrong, so why don't you remove it? Hello?

mung (02:26:55.019)
I mean I think I think they just understand that the characters busted top to bottom and they don't they just like it there maybe. I don't know. There's no other really like what what's the other explanation? The characters busted top to bottom.

Gallus (02:27:04.834)
The the mentality is Yeah, especially for not changing any of the problem with the team up specifically. It's like she's another Bucky to them and Bucky to them is a necessary evil because of like, the people are gonna get dove and you need to do something against it. So it's like it's a circle it's a circle that disables a mobile hero instantly. That's what it does. That's the same with the what they did with the thing, right? You know?

mung (02:27:13.145)
Exactly. Thank you.

mung (02:27:18.977)
Exactly.

CaptainCoach (02:27:23.704)
There Yeah.

El Elsa is the thing of DPS to counter heroes like Thing. Like just power crept to crazy to be able to deal with like brainless, mindless stuff. Like Thing is an answer to all like the the strong tanks. Like he can just do like obviously Elsa's a bit harder. But I think they want to have an option in the game to counter brawl. Like just to just be like, yo, you pick this, you shit on brawl no matter what. I don't know why Wolve isn't good enough for that or Iron Fist or whatever, but it they for whatever reason I they they

Coach Mills (02:27:27.378)
I also

CaptainCoach (02:27:56.141)
refuse to make this character anything other than OP.

Coach Mills (02:27:59.261)
So people might not agree with me. Y'all might not agree with me. I think Bucky, so like as this denial of divers and denial of mobility, I think Bucky is far healthier for the game than Elsa is. And there's there's like the reason for that is because Bucky has several weaknesses in his kit. He has all these crazy strengths, you know, crowd control, lots of close range damage, lots of close range burst. He has a pretty bad ultimate. I think one of the worst ultimates in the DPS catalog. Not everyone's gonna agree, but it's it's pretty weak, especially when compared to fucking Elsa's ult. Pretty weak.

He's pretty bad against ranged characters because he doesn't have good mobility, right? Elsa has all the strengths that Bucky has combined with a top two ultimate and great mobility. So if you give a character like zero weaknesses as at all, they don't they stop being the the the answer and they start being the threat. The same logic applies to Magneto. When you get when he has a fucking 12 second.

Thing that can just kill things, right? He stopped being the answer and he started being the threat. Elsa does not have like a like a defensive identity anymore. She is just the she's just the boogeyman now. Like she always has been. She because she doesn't like she just doesn't have any weaknesses. She just does everything. I don't know why.

mung (02:29:13.505)
I agree. I think she's she's far more cancer than Bucky, I think. I mean, maybe not far more, but she certainly is more.

Gallus (02:29:21.57)
Hero's just that good. look, I don't know what if there's much else to say about it. I think the way they've they tiptoe around the hit scans is very bizarre to me, and I think it's probably because they designed themselves into a corner. What's the experience of playing against Elsa? Well it's the same experience as playing against Phoenix when she was good. It's the same experience of play playing against Hella when she was good, as Cyclops when he's good. They do the exact same fucking thing and they bulletproof all of them and make them incredibly well rounded. Like

CaptainCoach (02:29:21.805)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (02:29:37.849)
Yeah.

Gallus (02:29:47.01)
You know, i if you if you feel like they all need to be like on the same tier, either forcefully put the one of them in S tier and the rest of them are in B tier so that the band slot isn't wasted, but you guys are against that. Or here's an idea, like maybe they can all actually do something slightly different. Like and I don't mean putting a trap in the corner and forgetting about it. Like yeah.

Coach Mills (02:30:02.451)
Yeah, the the the homogenizing design like Captain Kitch has been talking about. It's a hundred percent true. I mean, it really is.

CaptainCoach (02:30:12.212)
Here's here this has been something that's been circulating recently. It's it's rage bait, but see how you guys take it. Talk about Elsa Bucky. Are they poke? I would say yes, but

Gallus (02:30:22.944)
my god.

Coach Mills (02:30:23.767)
yeah, well apparently Silock I mean the the whole argument the Silock is not dive argument. Like th there this this dumb fucking what's an off tank, what's the main tank? my god, dude. I cannot stand some of these some of these Yeah. man. Anyways, fucking like I I he I never thought it I would live to see the day where I say that Hella is like

mung (02:30:25.199)
Be engaging with that.

Gallus (02:30:26.38)
Yes.

CaptainCoach (02:30:32.834)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Gallus (02:30:44.45)
They're they're poke brawl hybrids, but they're poke heroes. Like they just poke most of the time.

Coach Mills (02:30:52.185)
I think Hella is way more ethical than most of these new fucking hit scan characters coming out. I actually like Hella meta's because I can actually interact with Hella in a reasonable way. Like if I'm like as an example, if I'm Thor, I can dash at Hella, force her fucking flight, and then I can chase her down, right? Or I can force her out of the angle and then she's vulnerable. What does Elsa do? I she probably wins the duel against me. If she doesn't win the duel against me, she backs off slightly and then is right back there. She just dashes back.

Then she dashes forward, then she dashes back, and I'm just like like I don't know. This character is just an abomination to me. I can't believe it. They they they saw everyone complaining in season zero and season one about Hella and they said, just wait. Just fucking wait. We'll give you something to complain about. And they did. So Yep.

Gallus (02:31:38.444)
Yeah, pretty much, bro. Like I don't know what else to tell you. I think Yeah, I I think also like her base kit, like when she was released, the trap stood out as something that was like this is fucking weird, bro. Like her kit was complete without it. It's uninteractive, it goes invisible, and they had the opportunity to fix that or turn it into something interesting with the team up, and they just compounded the problems that were already there, so it's a shame. I I think Elsa's one of their better designs.

Coach Mills (02:31:39.377)
Yeah, no I don't know.

mung (02:31:39.781)
I mean like it's just it's bo it's horrible.

Coach Mills (02:31:51.247)
So weird.

Gallus (02:32:06.334)
from the player's perspective. Like the gameplay flow, how she moves about and everything is so fluid and it it's it's genuinely like beautiful. It's so good. But does she need the bonus health? You know, does she need the trap at all in that case? You know, I think this hero this hero is like a a Star Lord two point but then there's extra abilities in there that just round out absolutely everything and how it's balanced as well. And I don't think they need to be there. Yeah.

Coach Mills (02:32:33.767)
No, you don't understand. They needed to preserve her identity as a hunter. You know, her th her hero her hero fantasy 'cause everyone had hero fantasies of this character no one knew about. anyways.

Gallus (02:32:37.697)
True.

mung (02:32:40.484)
God.

Coach Mills (02:32:45.575)
DPS pool. DPS pool. yeah, this character won't be good. No worries. No. single shot damage from his pistols go up from 38 to 42. And now he gets the same change where you can upgrade him, you know, 25% faster. It's now 75% of the original values. I think everyone of us has had this common experience where we have gotten fucking rolled by a a

mung (02:32:51.769)
Mm-hmm.

Coach Mills (02:33:15.185)
A duelist pool that knows what they're doing. That motherfucker is rolling everybody, bro. Whoever that is, whether it's fucking Welvin or like whoever, there's like a million of them that you run into. Those guys, like when they get max level, they actually feel like they're the strongest character in the game and they are getting max level exponentially faster now. Like not even it might be fifty percent faster because of the damage increase. Like it actually it's gonna be fucking insane.

'Cause I feel like a lot of the times I beat this character by winning early. Like you win the first map for free, and then you win the second map bi by ba maybe barely. but like if you would have gotten to overtime or the third map, you probably lose to this character because he gets so strong. You're just gonna have to deal with that by the halfway point in the game, max level dead point.

Gallus (02:34:03.799)
Yeah.

mung (02:34:06.021)
That's gonna be very very fun to play against it. I love DPS pool. I love playing against Jitword. jumping on my head 85 times. I can't wait for it. That's the greatest thing ever. Awesome one. 75% of the original value. Like, that's a problem, man. That is a problem for some of these characters. Maybe they shouldn't have done that for for this one specifically. But actually it doesn't matter because they'll just do it on on another character and the transfers over. So you're screwed anyways. Like.

Coach Mills (02:34:11.761)
Ha ha ha.

CaptainCoach (02:34:17.934)
Yeah, and again

Gallus (02:34:20.162)
Sh

Coach Mills (02:34:27.603)
Hey.

Coach Mills (02:34:31.379)
Ha ha ha.

Gallus (02:34:32.502)
I I think this is a theme in this patch is that I think they're making quite a few changes that's really gonna piss a lot of the backliners off. I think. Like all of this stuff is like like cat in this duel pool, adding cap in there. but like gore, I'm I'm a bit s I'm a bit scared about the presence gore is gonna have in just putting out like sheer amounts of pressure, the the lurking threat of him showing up and just like doing cleave AoE damage to the back line. Like fucking surprise, it's him and jewel pool at the same time. Everyone's dead, bro.

Coach Mills (02:34:40.237)
Ha ha ha.

CaptainCoach (02:34:40.242)
yeah.

Coach Mills (02:34:56.403)
Surprise, yeah.

CaptainCoach (02:34:58.166)
I'm telling you.

CaptainCoach (02:35:02.508)
Those healers those healers, they're gonna be begging for thing buffs, bro.

Gallus (02:35:02.638)
They're just at

Coach Mills (02:35:02.759)
Ha ha

Gallus (02:35:07.982)
fuck, they're like yeah that they did this on purpose. okay.

mung (02:35:08.037)
A hundred percent. They will be.

Coach Mills (02:35:08.697)
CaptainCoach (02:35:12.718)
It's a necessary evil.

Coach Mills (02:35:15.205)
mung (02:35:17.207)
You're not wrong. They will be.

Coach Mills (02:35:20.519)
This one I was very surprised by. Iron Fist. So the first full strike first four strikes of Jeet Kundo, which is his primary, is from thirty five to thirty eight. And the fifth strike actually does sixty damage instead of fifty five. When you have the team up with things selected, you can actually chain the existing enhanced effect follow up after the first hit. You don't need thing to do the full combo. but it is increased by four seconds now. So

the character just gets to have this effect. the damage dealt to enemies with the enhanced though does go up by the enhanced second hit goes up from forty five to fifty, and his ultimate is reduced from thirty four hundred to thirty one hundred. What are your thoughts on this this massive amount of changes to the character?

CaptainCoach (02:36:08.984)
It's a fist meta baby.

mung (02:36:10.317)
Am I crazy for saying that I already thought Fist was decent before this? Is that a crazy statement? Yeah, I thought he was okay, man. I mean, I have a friend who's he's finished rank seventeen planet Earth off Iron Fist one tricking. And he's been telling me this character is busted or are actually pretty good. I have a feeling this is gonna you're gonna start seeing a lot more Iron Fist players who are like C three, GM one, they're gonna be like creeping up into like high ELO now. You're gonna start seeing it.

Coach Mills (02:36:15.559)
He was not bad. He was definitely not bad.

mung (02:36:39.813)
Like I think this character is very good.

Gallus (02:36:40.536)
Yeah. And again that's like Yeah. Yeah, maybe. And that's flat damage there against squishies, like backline is under pressure again. But also this this hero is there for the dyno question, you know? Yeah. Mm-hmm. yeah, he's good. He's fucking scary, this patch bro, this hero.

CaptainCoach (02:36:42.094)
Yeah, I think you're gonna be banning this hero.

Coach Mills (02:36:54.02)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, good point.

CaptainCoach (02:36:54.125)
Mm-hmm.

Coach Mills (02:37:00.305)
I I mean the something else is so like normally people did pick the White Fox team up, I think. Like they picked it a lot 'cause it was really like it it insulated your back line a lot. With especially 'cause when you didn't have a thing. but now like b you get to pick this effect all the time. You're gonna do more damage with your combos, your primary is gonna do more just normally, and your ultimate is is three hundred less. I honestly think that you're gonna get ultimate crazy fast on this character.

mung (02:37:00.757)
Hundred percent.

Coach Mills (02:37:30.077)
Like unbelievably fast on this character. Yeah, I mean it's it's actually gonna be insane. So

CaptainCoach (02:37:36.322)
DPS are gonna be running every lobby, this patch.

Gallus (02:37:40.311)
Looks like it. Yeah.

Coach Mills (02:37:41.469)
There's there's a there's gonna be a lot I mean like maybe that's why they didn't nerf characters like Elsa too much, characters like Bucky too much, spoiler alert, is because they literally turned on the fucking I mean they turned on the flames with like dual pool, iron fists, like some of these divers are just like ridiculous. I like actually just insane.

CaptainCoach (02:37:41.557)
Every l every lobby, bro.

CaptainCoach (02:38:01.422)
You know what's crazy though? I I think this is the appropriate level of buff. Maybe not the ultimate, because you know, you already get it quicker with everything else. That this hero needs to be able to compete with people like Bucky and Elsa. Like I actually think that they need it this much. I know you say there's some high rank iron fists, but like at a core fundamental level. yeah. He's good. No, he's definitely good. So I mean, this is obviously too much, but

mung (02:38:20.453)
There's there's actually quite a few of them, and you'd be surprised. There's a lot.

mung (02:38:29.891)
Yeah, I think it's too much.

CaptainCoach (02:38:31.21)
I I'm I'm here for it. Like I I'm actually you know what, it let these heroes be meta to let everybody know what it feels like.

mung (02:38:37.857)
Hm.

Coach Mills (02:38:38.333)
Yeah, I he I don't think he's ever been above B tier for a while. I think this I think he's gonna be legitimately A tier of this patch, which is crazy.

CaptainCoach (02:38:44.716)
I think it'd be us. I think it'd be us. No.

mung (02:38:45.603)
I think he's us. unironically I agree with Couch here. I think he's us.

Coach Mills (02:38:48.657)
He could be. He could be. He very well could be. Definitely in the hands of the people that fucking know what they're doing on Iron Fist, they're gonna be complete demons, bro.

CaptainCoach (02:38:54.466)
Yeah. And the and the freedom to use your primary and not always have to go into parry mode for more like actual damage. Like he actually does damage now with his normal punches, which has has been a big issue with him in in one v one duels, is because he you want to save your parry and then you just do no damage, you fuck all before it. So I mean th he's gonna be very good. Very, very good.

Coach Mills (02:39:10.917)
Any Iron Fist mains out there, hit me up, hit me up. I need that dude. I need that boost. Okay. Just let me know. All right. no. We're cooked. okay. Magic. the team up with the hood, the cooldown got increased from 15 to 20. And now the limbo demon health boost goes from 100 to 25. total health reduced from 200 to 125.

CaptainCoach (02:39:15.86)
I'm learning I'm gonna play Iron Fist and Gore bro Wanda. Those are my three. I'm done tanking, I told you.

Gallus (02:39:21.92)
my fuck.

Gallus (02:39:39.822)
It's like a tiny change, bro. I I feel like this patch in general, like all the dive happening, I feel like the chain got buffed. Like if you can tie two people together, cat, gore, like all the cleaving, slashing, BS, fist, whatever, like, yeah. I I think this hero's fine. I I don't consider this to be a major change at all. Yeah.

mung (02:39:41.369)
Yeah. I mean and I mean too

CaptainCoach (02:39:58.029)
Yep.

I think it's a good way to nerf her because those things are annoying and brainless and you just put them down and they're just there and Yeah, th this is a perfectly Right. Right. This is a perfectly good change 'cause again, like I y you talk to a magic and ask what their favorite part of her kit is. You think any of them are going to say the demon? Or demons? No. They're gonna say the teleports, the dashes, the bursts, the combos. So this is just this is this should be like a little secondary, like a quirk.

Gallus (02:40:05.954)
Yep. Black Else is trap.

Coach Mills (02:40:24.335)
Yeah.

CaptainCoach (02:40:27.81)
That you you know, good magic still uses it to block skill shots and stuff, but

Coach Mills (02:40:29.107)
Yeah, and and it only nerfed it only nerfed the hood team up too. Like the the strange team up's still good. Like it's really good. I think Magic is fine. I think she's she's actually. Mr. Fent. We brought the boy on to talk about Mr. Fent. 'cause I don't know what the fuck this ability does. I'm gonna read it for the people listening at home. Team up with the thing, adjust clobbering research department to toggle to be a toggle ability.

mung (02:40:38.029)
I think it's all right.

CaptainCoach (02:40:38.958)
It's good change. It's a good change.

CaptainCoach (02:40:56.952)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (02:40:57.009)
Allowing Mr. Fantastic to turn it on and off freely. After entering the brawler stance, reduce the brawling punch full charge time from one second to point seven five seconds. Increase the damage at zero charge from fifty-five damage to sixty-five and reduce the launch effect from a fully charged punch. Okay. I don't know what the fuck this means, Galls. Let me let me know. Let me know.

CaptainCoach (02:41:13.88)
Take it away.

Gallus (02:41:14.114)
Alright, alright. So the thing team up, absolute dog shit. No one uses it. Terrible, right? Two reasons. Like, one, it doesn't do enough damage. Right? So it's not worth using. It was a time-limited thing. You activate it and you're stuck there. But all the damage you did with the new team up ability didn't build elasticity. Like his core mechanic. Like for the inflated state, right? So when you enhanced it with the thing, you get the right click as well, which does this overhead. The overhead does this does the same damage as the punches.

Right. And I I think it took longer to charge. Right. So the only thing you gain from the overhead when you're enhanced with the thing now is that it pulls people towards you when you hit it. Okay? Still not worth it, because what it did when you have the enhanced one is the right click, that doesn't build elasticity either. So it removed your lowest cooldown freest use ability to build elasticity outside of the team up. And then like if you had the enhanced with the thing, it was worse than the base one with the thing, which was also terrible.

I still think enhanced is terrible, it doesn't answer that. But the best thing they could have done is make this toggleable so you can weave this into your kit and still build elasticity, which was the main problem with it. So now there's a reason to use this. Also, elasticity or transforming is nerfed in the rocket team up because there was that exploit where you could keep adding health, right? It's not nerfed on Mr. F's base kit. So if you were good at the hero and you could use elasticity and play around it, when you transform, you get your health instantly.

Because it's at the end of the transform and his animations are clunky with the rocket team up. Like this is really fucking good. And the full charge punch is a 25% faster charge up. Like this is good, bro. I'm gonna be using this. I'm really excited to try this. Like, I feel like I have two team ups to actually use now. So this one impressed me. I'm excited. It's a hero I like. And it seems like they sort of understand. Like the the rocket team up is more of a skill floor, quality of life change. And this one has a ceiling. And I love that it's toggleable.

Because there's so many things you could think of, like how do I weave this into everything? Like there's like endless possibility. It's so cool. I really like it.

CaptainCoach (02:43:14.614)
That's really cool 'cause I I think that's what this hero needed was a a a higher s ceiling based around kind of his cooldown usage and how he plays rather than just like, let's just give him more ways to deal damage and whatever you like. I I'm glad you're happy with it.

Coach Mills (02:43:28.275)
That's a good that's a that's good. Actually that's a good point 'cause Mr. Fent is a character that has he's kind of the opposite of Dino where he's just been really like he's you couldn't make him as strong as he needed to be in high Elo because it would break him for low ELO players, but this is like

Gallus (02:43:40.642)
Yeah. Yeah, the the the one thing I've wanted for the hero is a higher ceiling. That's it. Like they need to figure out how to give him a higher ceiling without making him more powerful at like lower to mid ranks because they think he's kind of broken and he just walks him down. And like this is this is it, man. Because like also like the number one thing I'm hearing about him since the team up update is that everyone fucking loves the rocket team up. I hate it. it's a quality of life change, really. it

It means you can't you can't speedrun a second transform if you have all your cooldowns to build all your elasticity because it is a set eight second cooldown to transform. Like, I I I think it's good, bro. It's good. Like one of the team-ups appeals to the people like at the skill floor, whatever. Mid-ranks, whatever. Sure, great. Let them have it. Absolutely. It still has its uses as well outside of that. But give them a bit bit a bit of a ceiling, which is the opportunity with this team-up system to like maybe.

maybe solve some of the fundamental issues with the character. And it's not a it's not a massive thing. Also you build bonus health when you punch someone with that team up. So I don't know if this is sleep or broken because you can weave it in, but I'll see what the what it looks like when I test it.

CaptainCoach (02:44:47.116)
Will Fant be OP on console now? Or more OP I guess? Yeah. Is this gonna be too much, you think? For console?

Gallus (02:44:50.422)
He's already OP on console, bro. He's fucking hehehehe

mung (02:44:51.998)
Already, bro.

Coach Mills (02:44:53.346)
Yeah.

Gallus (02:44:57.844)
I I don't know if there's a if the precision requirement is too high. Maybe mid to higher ranks this hero becomes more like unbearable. But I don't know. I feel like maybe it's cause he was a stat stick in the cooldowns, etcetera, etcetera. I'm not I'm not sure, maybe. Maybe.

CaptainCoach (02:45:15.382)
Okay, fair enough.

Coach Mills (02:45:16.051)
Okay.

mung (02:45:17.125)
Yeah, I'm just glad they reworked it finally, man. Like that team up was like legitimately a joke. Like

Coach Mills (02:45:19.635)
So I guess th they did hit su to to give their f some some of their flowers, they did change some team ups. Maybe they're just taking it in parts. You know, like I kinda want them to hit every team up and fix But like they are hitting some and maybe Yeah. I I think Iron Fist, you know, it's a reasonable job too. Magic, yeah.

Gallus (02:45:22.04)
It was so bad.

CaptainCoach (02:45:35.906)
Yeah, did a good job with Mag, good a good job with magic, Fant.

Coach Mills (02:45:46.341)
I can and then maybe the blade one, like like Monk said, it's actually maybe pretty good. I like I I I don't know what y'all think, but I think this Black Panther one is more likely to see play 'cause it basically if it doesn't give fortune, it can't possibly see play 'cause he she needs fortune to function. Like she just needs it and that's what that's why she was unplayable without the Spider Man team up before. It's like you need so like I I understand what they're doing. Like I see they are hitting some of them. Maybe they just couldn't hit all of them and they will. They will, maybe. So

I'm just trying to give them a little, you know a little devil a devil's advocate in there. It's not complete ass.

CaptainCoach (02:46:19.426)
They have they have more good changes this patch than bad in my opinion. but to me I I'm just at the point now where I just don't think that's enough. I I I think I counted like forty changes, including the global alt nerf for healers. I I think I said like twenty two of them were good and then eighteen of them were bad. I mean we'll get to the rest here, but yeah, I mean there are there are a lot of good things.

Gallus (02:46:41.326)
Sure, it it's also like yeah, yeah, there's a there's a lot of good stuff, sure. but it's also like one change is not equal to another. You know, the number of them doesn't i it's not a measure of anything other than like w how many lines of text are in what direction or whatever, but it doesn't tell you how far you're moving in one direction. yeah, and you know, core systems in the game, alt charge, blah blah blah, you know, that that's that's a lot more fundamental and affects everything, as opposed to like Elsa getting a slap on the wrist. So yeah.

mung (02:46:49.113)
Yeah, that's true.

Coach Mills (02:46:49.127)
That's that's yeah, yeah.

CaptainCoach (02:46:53.358)
Sure.

CaptainCoach (02:47:10.092)
That's also kinda why I critiqued that change a little harder and I was a little harsher on it, even though like something like this is obviously like a great change, you know. So yeah, I mean, give their flowers, sure. This is what needed to happen.

Coach Mills (02:47:21.521)
No more. So the Trident of Neptune damage per shot goes up five from seventy-five to eighty. When selected the team up with Hulk, you reduce the gamma squid team like team up that you have by five seconds. So you get it every twenty-five seconds. And the single hit of it goes up from five to fifty five point five. Now just just But when you select the team up with Luna Snow, your normal squids

CaptainCoach (02:47:41.272)
GG's the devs are stupid, they don't know what they're doing.

Gallus (02:47:43.955)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (02:47:52.123)
Get replaced by frozen squid. So you're not getting a a separate cooldown frozen squid. It's just your normal squids are now frozen, and the damage remains the same as your normal squids, but it adds a 15 slow effect every hit lasting a second. That's just defaulted to all of his squids, like it's normal two squids. So you either have higher damage plus higher uptime with the Hulk one, or just perma slowing effect with the Luna one.

So I I like I think that this is actually like I mean, we can talk about how strong this character is, but in my opinion, it gives a reason to pick one or the other. I think the gamma one gives you more uptime and more like you can be more offensive with it, be more aggressive, throw it down, like maybe dive more. The Luna Snow one actually makes this character anti-dive when before I don't even really think he was anti-dive. Like, people like to act like he is, but he wasn't really not anti-dive. Like, not like a Bucky's anti-dive. He just because he didn't have the burst, but giving slow.

Gallus (02:48:20.355)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (02:48:48.305)
His squids hitting like all these divers and slowing them down, that's a fucking big deal. Like he is really anti dive now with that team up. So I don't know. What do you all think?

Gallus (02:48:53.197)
Yeah.

mung (02:48:56.293)
That's a strong change for sure. I mean

mung (02:49:01.037)
We gotta I don't know what kind of meta we're going into fully here, man. The bands make it like a wild card. Like he's he was suffering before he did need a buff. At least I thought so. Yeah, so he needed he needed buffs for sure. how much is this gonna boost the win rate? I don't know, but I think it's a step in the right direction. I mean 15% slow, that's gonna be very noticeable. It's gonna make it a lot easier for people to try to capitalize off of any type of fucking dive coming in. Like cause we're gonna be seeing a lot of that. So I like it.

Coach Mills (02:49:09.275)
Only forty percent win rate in Celestial Plus.

Coach Mills (02:49:29.895)
Yeah, especially with the fucking spoiler, Spider Man buff that we'll talk about in bit.

mung (02:49:33.145)
Yeah. boy. boy, stop please. You're gonna make me like legit cry, bruh.

Gallus (02:49:33.783)
No bro.

CaptainCoach (02:49:36.384)
N yeah. Num because of this change and then yeah, buffs to some other dive, yeah, I think Namor will be a pretty common ban, especially in the lower ranks. 'Cause he already he Namura, believe it or not, is actually a pretty popular ban. Like we we

Coach Mills (02:49:48.403)
We've been running into it a lot.

Gallus (02:49:50.392)
Bro they're gonna I th I was I was gonna be I like the Lurax are gonna hate this bro. What are they doing, man? Like this hero's fucking he's the worst. Like

CaptainCoach (02:49:55.395)
Ha ha ha.

Coach Mills (02:49:56.721)
No. No, you gotta think it's like this on the hierarchy of hate, Dive is at the top. Okay, so on that's the hierarchy of hate. And so Na Namor is the gatekeeper of, you know, the perceived gatekeeper. although some there's some people in Lo Elo that both hate Bucky and hate Panther, and it's like you you gotta hate one of them. Like you can't, like, we we can't hate them both.

Gallus (02:50:05.816)
Yeah.

CaptainCoach (02:50:09.144)
Well perceived gatekeeper, right?

Gallus (02:50:11.352)
Yeah.

Gallus (02:50:22.07)
Okay.

CaptainCoach (02:50:22.933)
Ha ha ha.

Coach Mills (02:50:25.037)
because anyways, the both the gatekeeper and the gate and the the gatebreaker. You hate yeah, you yeah.

Gallus (02:50:27.564)
No, that's the problem, bro. You can you can hit the bus. You can I'll allow it.

CaptainCoach (02:50:30.082)
I I think these changes I think I think these changes are a bit much. I think they're a little too much.

Gallus (02:50:37.74)
Yeah, it's pretty heavy handed. I this is really gonna affect low ranks, man.

Coach Mills (02:50:40.261)
I'm I'm down I'm down I'm down for it. W I think I think Namura is a po he's a ethical poker. You know why he's an ethical poker? 'Cause his bubble cooldown is actually a cooldown. It's not just a fucking I get a dash every two seconds.

Gallus (02:50:51.701)
True.

CaptainCoach (02:50:53.024)
I agree. Yeah, I actually talked about that on my patch notes. It's like they could buff Namor by just reducing their bubble. And I I did say something along the lines of that too, Mills. I was like, yeah, very ethical. 'Cause it's what is it? It's like thirty seconds. It's like a twenty seven or it's super long. Every cooldown needs to be like that. Every single one.

Coach Mills (02:51:06.053)
It's a ver yeah, it's very long. It's very which is li it's a hundred the e escape and mobility should a hundred percent be like that. Yeah, I I agree. A hundred percent. Especially on pokers. It's fucking nonsense.

CaptainCoach (02:51:18.658)
Right.

Gallus (02:51:19.194)
I think they just need to be careful they're not accidentally making every gore player hate their lives. Like, because there's a lot of changes in this patch. It's so like, this is to deal with gore. I'm like, Okay, d do you want no one to fucking play the guy? Like.

Coach Mills (02:51:23.855)
Ha ha ha.

are you

CaptainCoach (02:51:30.158)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (02:51:30.673)
I are are you ready for the Are you ready for the Here's the team comp, okay? I got you. Namor Namor Gore Loki. Just fucking Everything is and there's a totem there, and there's a fucking, you know, clone here, and there's a fucking squid there, and there's a fucking It's just like it's it's shoot shit doc I mean that there's there's no possible way that Dive beats that comp by the way. Like what the fuck

Gallus (02:51:40.558)
Awww Fuuuck

CaptainCoach (02:51:42.606)
CaptainCoach (02:51:48.014)
So ban ban Phoenix then, if you're running that. Yeah.

Gallus (02:51:50.636)
Yeah maybe. That's unbearable.

mung (02:51:54.639)
Cinema comp.

Coach Mills (02:51:59.409)
It's dy like a full dive card with no one to clear the squids? I and you you ha you would have to play like a pool, de like a tank pool or a fucking hood. Like you ha you need someone to break the squids. Like you just like or you're fucked.

Gallus (02:52:02.902)
I don't know what you do, bro.

Gallus (02:52:12.254)
It makes a lot more sense. Jewel pool got the gun buff as well now, actually thinking about it. Yeah.

Coach Mills (02:52:15.675)
Yeah. Can break some of those destructibles. okay, Psylock. So slightly reduce the psionic crossbow projectile speed. Once again, netties, please, please, please, Neties, nice, nice. Stop putting no context to these fucking changes. Slightly tells me fuck all. It doesn't tell me anything. What does that mean? Slightly. What is is it by this much or this much or this like what is slightly? Like what the fuck is slightly?

CaptainCoach (02:52:17.878)
Hmm.

CaptainCoach (02:52:39.51)
I'm slightly annoyed by these notes.

mung (02:52:41.401)
Not like actually though. Like put a number. Like what is it? Five, ten, like what is it? Something. Percentage. Slightly tells you nothing. It could be anything at this point. I don't know what's slightly to them. Fifteen?

Coach Mills (02:52:53.196)
Yeah.

CaptainCoach (02:52:54.86)
My favorite is when they'll be like, We're ignite we're igniting the battle with like amping up their damage, like, what the fuck does that mean? Like

Coach Mills (02:53:02.525)
Ha ha ha.

Gallus (02:53:02.772)
Hehehehehe.

mung (02:53:04.185)
Just I don't know man.

Coach Mills (02:53:06.669)
and then also the rings the wings sure can projectile speed, which is the is that the alternate or the primary? It's the primary, right?

Gallus (02:53:14.816)
It's the primary, I think. no no, the the Shurgan, that's the alt fire, the right click. Yeah.

mung (02:53:16.185)
Yeah. I think

Coach Mills (02:53:19.217)
the all for all far, yeah. It goes up from one twenty to one fifty and increased the damage for sure can from nine to ten, which is a lot. A lot. So it's so more more consistently accurate primary and then more burst in the combo and the alternate. power once aga once again, Silock was really good in the patch before the it it before nine point In the same way that Cap was really good.

Gallus (02:53:25.038)
That's Damn, like

Gallus (02:53:33.89)
Yeah. It's just like more more instant assassination potential.

Coach Mills (02:53:47.959)
Obviously it's not Silock that is the problem, it's everything else like

CaptainCoach (02:53:51.714)
Well, I I view this as a double buff. Like a lot of these are double buffs. Like they you could have just left the game as is and these DPS would have been fine and flourished a little bit flourished more if you just nerfed Bucky and Elsa like a little bit more and widow maybe a little bit more. And now we're having to bring everything up rather than just knock a few people down and and I just don't it's fine, whatever, but like I just yeah, I just don't agree with this change to Silock. I don't agree with the strength of change to to no more and some more DPS.

Gallus (02:54:17.73)
Yeah. Yeah. I would have gr I would agreed w I would have agreed with some slight revert to her fall off change because that seemed so steep that it was like maybe bonkers. Maybe I'm wrong on that, but I I I'll stand by it. Fuck it. Okay.

Coach Mills (02:54:31.641)
I

CaptainCoach (02:54:32.257)
Yeah.

mung (02:54:32.709)
Yeah, I don't know what you do with this character to be honest. Like a lot of people just cry about it no matter what, right? That's the thing. How many people in low ELO n constantly complain about Silock? I've heard it like nonstop almost, man, whenever she's meta. Even in high Elo, like I don't know about this change, but I agree with maybe with the with the with the falloff. That could have been something they could have tried again.

Coach Mills (02:54:57.363)
So this is Captain Curse does not agree with me about this take, but I'm curious if Gallus will. So I've said before that I think that there are certain DPS that are fine being the best DPS in slot. I think Silock is one of them. I think Psyloc is an acceptable best in slot, and it's much preferred to a lot of potential best in slots in the game. Like you y like I I I guess a another way to phrase this question is if you had to choose one DPS to be the best DPS in the game, what is that DPS or what are those top three DPS?

For me, Silock is on that list because I can't think of another one that I would rather put in that slot that creates meaning meaningful like interactions and gameplay. 'Cause Silock is always like kind of like a glass cannon, right?

Gallus (02:55:27.778)
Damn.

Gallus (02:55:37.388)
Yeah. Yeah. Alright, so first off I I reckon Wanda. Like I'm fucking with you, bro. No.

Coach Mills (02:55:43.047)
No, but that that here's the thing. No, no. Well someone someone told me that. They're like, ooh, what about Wanda? And I was like, You you do understand how strong that fucking character would have to be to be the best DPS in slot.

CaptainCoach (02:55:43.116)
Ha ha.

Gallus (02:55:52.492)
Yeah. Yeah. I might I might even agree with you. I I think I I think my issue with Psylock is the alt being really uninteractive because I found that very frustrating when I was new to the game. And that that explains quite a bit of that frustration that other people have to me.

Coach Mills (02:56:03.739)
Agreed. Agreed.

Coach Mills (02:56:10.819)
So so it's to kind of follow up on that idea, do you th so I always thought we should give her her ul more skill expression, right? Be like a more skillful ult. Do you think it would create a larger divide between higher and low ELO though? Like the low Elo play like we would be in a Silock meta, but the low ELO players would say Silak's trash. Like because of that, because the ultimate kind of levels that out a little bit, is is like the idea. I I'm not saying I agree with that, but if you're gonna if you're committed to making characters viable across multiple ranks

Gallus (02:56:28.29)
Yeah, maybe potentially.

Yeah.

Coach Mills (02:56:39.997)
Then you know, a brain dead ultimate is a way to do it.

Gallus (02:56:43.47)
It's a weird one. And like maybe maybe I don't have an issue with the ult fundamentally. As in like, you know, as you go higher up, it can present itself as less lethal or requires a lot better timing. Or instead it's used for like its iframes. And I think that's that's cool. Like I don't really have a problem with that. I think I I really have a problem with how much frustration it causes closer to the skill floor. I I don't think Psilock is super offensive. I think I'd actually add Star Lord to that list, but

Coach Mills (02:57:07.891)
Yeah, yeah.

mung (02:57:11.661)
I was gonna say that.

Coach Mills (02:57:11.847)
Yep, I would too.

Gallus (02:57:11.958)
Maybe more old s old Star Lord. 'Cause I think they he keeps getting crept up to keep up with things. He's got fifty ammo now. this the shit they did with readjusting his ult constantly was a bit I'm not sure about that. but yeah, I think Star Lord was yeah, pretty universal in like I I think being being more or less like feeling fair, as close as we could get, I think.

CaptainCoach (02:57:39.288)
See I I conceded that I when we were talking about that, that I think that yeah, she's like higher skill and and you know, she encourages good whatever gameplay loops. But to me, yeah, my my issue was always the ultimate and Star Lord, you know, it's kinda the same thing. It it's just a brainless alt.

Coach Mills (02:57:54.257)
We could replace Okay, I'm gonna bring up a reference again that I'm not allowed to bring, but like it would like as a hypothetical, you could replace one of their ultimates with like Tracer Pulse Bomb, which was like very impactful, skill expressive, would be really good in high ELO. But like basic you kind of know what Tracer Pulse Bomb is, Captain Coach. It was a very fast-building ultimate that you could stick to a single target and it would just kill that target if it was a squishy, not a tank, but a squishy, it would kill them. like it did like 400 damage, but it like you had to actually physically place it. So it was a skill.

Gallus (02:57:56.524)
Yeah.

CaptainCoach (02:58:22.892)
Yeah, no, I remember that. I I played I played when I was in the game. Yeah, to me sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt.

Coach Mills (02:58:23.853)
Right. Yeah. and that that would be yeah. I I was just saying that that's like a much higher skill ultimate, but it did create a bigger gap between the high and low elos for Tracer because Tracer play like Tracer was really squishy. Tracer could never like you couldn't play that character in low ELO because you'd like people just died because they had bad fundamentals. And they also could never hit the ultimate. So like but like I'm fine with that if they if their solution isn't

this character's really bad. This character's only winning forty percent of the time in gold. We need to buff her. Like if you rework the ultimate, you have to kind of be okay. Like if you make a hyper high skill character, you have to be okay with them being ass in low elo. That's my argument. Like it has to you ha you ha it has to be that you can't have both. You can't try to make the character viable in low elo and make them all hyper skill.

Gallus (02:59:04.526)
Yeah.

mung (02:59:11.939)
Yeah, I I agree. See the thing is with with Star Lord and Psylock specifically, I like their base kits, assuming they're not stat padded. Like if you have a stat padded Psylock, you're gonna it's not gonna it's gonna be a miserable time in the lobby. But assuming they're like fine, the problem is their ultimates are just kinda cheesy. It's just disingenuous to play against a Psylock all sometimes. Like you could play like I could be on rocket, I could play perfectly sometimes. Like I I could grab the corner of a wall, super dash out the corner, I'm out of it. I'm still hit. You know what I mean? Like that's not fun to play against.

Coach Mills (02:59:22.663)
Yeah, you're right.

Gallus (02:59:23.65)
Yeah.

Gallus (02:59:29.443)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (02:59:37.923)
Hey.

mung (02:59:41.921)
If you could like implement something different on the character in terms of her alt, I'd yeah, I'd like playing against Siloc. Same with Star Lord. I still prefer maybe with Star Lord meta over some of these other ones, even even with the alt. But it is kind of like a boring gameplay loop because it's just farm alt, alt cycle, it's just you know, I s I just don't like it.

CaptainCoach (02:59:59.395)
Yeah. You know what, Mills, I I I think I think you convinced me. I I I think you did, 'cause I think what I said last time for that was was something like Iron Man because there's just more counterplay. But you can't really have a character like that I mean you have to be realistic at a certain point. And and for Iron Man to be good, either he'd need a redesign to actually be like way less clunky, or you'd just need to like just make his damage number so crazy because

Gallus (02:59:59.63)
Yeah.

mung (03:00:20.313)
Big time.

CaptainCoach (03:00:28.462)
parts of his kit are counter play, like do have counterplay. And I think being realistic would would be taking one of those two evils and just being like, okay, we're gonna have brainless alts, but Silox Neutral is is super high skill soon. So I I I I could s I could s I I I do kind of agree with you, like realistically, but I think if you really want to just tear down the game and break it apart, to me, like the best ethical type of DPS is something like an Iron Man, is something like that.

Coach Mills (03:00:57.811)
I could see that. Maybe if they re if they rework give

Gallus (03:00:57.932)
Yeah, maybe, yeah. yeah, I could say that.

CaptainCoach (03:01:00.824)
But I I I agree with you. I y you've convinced me. You have.

Coach Mills (03:01:03.687)
I maybe a maybe a world where they like buff the neutral of the character and reduce the power of the ultimate or made it more expensive and then you know that that would be even more optimal. Yeah, because I I I do do know of bad metas with Psylock. That meta where they made it so she could build ultimate from far away and she built ultimate too quickly and she just like she became a Pokeslop character in that meta. Like like Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Gallus (03:01:22.988)
Yeah, being a yeah, she was an alt bot. Yeah.

CaptainCoach (03:01:24.246)
Yeah. And she would farm tanks and it was it was and then that's what I what I think of too when I think of Silock being good is that exact thing.

mung (03:01:28.29)
Miserable.

Coach Mills (03:01:30.791)
She's only she's only healthy when she has to take risks to be valuable. Like she has to go cycle back. Like if she takes no risks, then she's no better than fucking Elsa, in my opinion.

CaptainCoach (03:01:35.704)
Sure.

mung (03:01:38.147)
Yeah, then the problem is, like, depending on what's meta at the time, why would you play that versus Bucky Elsa ever if it's open? It's just that's the that's the compounding problem. And then you have stuff like Iron Man. Like the question is in terms of balance, do they want to have some characters that are just never gonna be super good in high ELO, but they just like how they're designed, they find them for fun? Or are they gonna maybe take the effort and try to balance them to make them like viable once they go higher? Because Iron Man, let's be honest, Iron Man's a a fucking joke. Like you can't play him super high up.

Coach Mills (03:01:43.517)
Right.

CaptainCoach (03:01:45.623)
Yeah.

mung (03:02:07.829)
Like it's just horrible. It's unplayable.

CaptainCoach (03:02:09.72)
I think all D P S Alts should be like Iron Man alt though, more or less or all everyone's alt. Iron Man, Magneto, those types of alts I think are really i they're exciting too. And and good for the game.

Coach Mills (03:02:14.407)
More

Gallus (03:02:19.266)
Yeah. Yeah, draw draw back, it's a big attention grabber. Like like it's a it's a it's a crowd stopper, the the Iron Man ult even like its effect in game, because you can you can pop him.

mung (03:02:24.538)
Yeah.

Gallus (03:02:31.394)
Like if he's ulting, bro, if he doesn't do it right, like he he's dead against good players. Yeah, I think the issue with him is the I think it's fine to have something that's bad in high elo, good in low elo. I think it's just that he he's presented as broken in low elo. I think that's the problem. Like they've had to nerf him in patches before, like, random Iron Man nerf. What the fuck's going on? It's like, yeah, because no one down there looks up or whatever. Yeah.

Coach Mills (03:02:31.888)
Yeah.

mung (03:02:34.425)
Done.

CaptainCoach (03:02:46.434)
Right.

Coach Mills (03:02:49.7)
Ha ha ha.

CaptainCoach (03:02:50.818)
Wouldn't it be cool? I I love thinking of just cool little balance ideas and things. What if Iron Man's Alt went faster the longer it travels? So it's kind of like speeds up like a comment. And then once it hits a certain distance, it can't be blocked or sucked up or anything. Like wouldn't that be kind of cool? Like something where it encourages you to go for like those crazy TikTok clips and actually have it be viable. Like I want to see more stuff like that, but you can't really do that when you have all so you like sideline where you just press a button and it just auto.

Coach Mills (03:03:02.387)
Gallus (03:03:03.234)
Alright.

Coach Mills (03:03:08.179)
Ha ha ha.

CaptainCoach (03:03:20.972)
damages. So Yeah, too much. You could do some really cool stuff if you kinda just had a little bit of what like what like r discipline or whatever? Restraint, restraint, yeah.

Coach Mills (03:03:21.427)
Too much value, right. You're just gonna lose the stat check, yeah.

Coach Mills (03:03:30.225)
All right, all right, gentlemen, we hit the three hour mark, so I'm gonna speed us up but just a just a s like one pace faster and in that vein, in on principle, we've done this every time, we are skipping Scarlet Witch.

Gallus (03:03:44.979)
Ha ha ha ha.

mung (03:03:46.361)
Honestly, that sounds good to me.

Coach Mills (03:03:50.239)
but I will give my take about Scarlet Witch. 'Cause we're we're skipping, we're not reading the patches. I think they buffed the anti dive low skill character because they're buffed a lot of divers. Like Scarlet Witch is gonna be a good anti dive option. They gave low Elo players a way to fight back. I think it's really smart. I think it's good. Yeah.

CaptainCoach (03:03:51.128)
That's a lot.

CaptainCoach (03:04:07.478)
And and she's gonna actually be probably not as bad with a single target. I w well actually probably it's probably still 'cause she has that instant ability. Never mind. Forget for

mung (03:04:07.811)
I agree.

Gallus (03:04:15.182)
Yeah, the the damage is a bit lower, but she lifesteals, so I don't know if it potentially makes her more toxic at the skill floor, because I don't know if the dynamic of how much damage she's doing versus how much they can actually hit a shot is worse with the bonus health. But other stuff, I don't want her to take Mr. F's cleave identity away and just do it better. I think the alt is potentially actually fucking scary because it does damage over time and could pop bubbles that are weaker now as well. Yeah, yeah. like she actually she could

CaptainCoach (03:04:23.234)
Yeah.

CaptainCoach (03:04:37.256)
Ooh, good point. Yeah, I didn't think about that.

Gallus (03:04:42.275)
I she might actually be played. And I think that yeah, I agree. I I think that with the

CaptainCoach (03:04:42.626)
She's gonna be good.

mung (03:04:44.015)
Not gonna be bad.

Coach Mills (03:04:45.123)
I know I I still I think in High Eelus she's still gonna be dog shit, but I might be

CaptainCoach (03:04:48.204)
Nah, she's I think she's eight tier, Mills. I think she's eight tier.

Gallus (03:04:50.232)
This this on top of the other stuff going on, bro, I feel like backlines are getting cleaved this patch, and she's got that AoE.

mung (03:04:50.627)
I don't know about that.

Coach Mills (03:04:53.139)
No, she's fucking awful. No, she's awful. If she's not if she's not awful, I will be incredibly surprised. I think the character is still awful.

CaptainCoach (03:04:59.746)
That's that's my number three DPS. I'm

mung (03:05:01.231)
Could be okay, but I don't think she's gonna be A tier or S tier. I just can't imagine that. Yeah.

Coach Mills (03:05:05.927)
I mean, she's better than Hawkeye and Squirrel Girl. I'll give her that. Like I don't know. I don't know. Maybe maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I'm wrong. if if I am wrong, a Scarlet Witch main can can make a montage of me, like say saying the character's ass and then fucking rolling me up. Okay, anyways. Spider Man. Spider Man. Okay. so first I'm gonna say the team up. So the the reduce the cooldown on the Penny Parker team up from 15 seconds to ten, which is actually like pretty massive. Reduce the amazing combo cooldown, which is his uppercut.

From two seconds to one second. I I wanna say something really quickly, cause I did climb to I I climbed to Grandmaster on Spider-Man, but I do w whip him out randomly on my main to get back fast. Like I know the combos and I know how to play them reasonably well. This is fucking ridiculous, by the way.

Gallus (03:05:50.356)
Yep. It's fucking terrifying, bro. Like I just Like d doesn't he just keep you in the air? Like completely? Like I just he's one shotting people, bro. He just fucks someone up.

CaptainCoach (03:06:01.006)
I I same.

mung (03:06:01.263)
mean, yeah, I've seen some crazy combos on Twitter right now, man. Go look at like you even have people like DeMar saying, yeah, this is obscenely busted. This is ridiculous. Like when you got actual good Spider Man players saying this, man, that's a big problem.

Coach Mills (03:06:04.883)
The

Coach Mills (03:06:10.781)
'Cause yeah.

CaptainCoach (03:06:14.048)
I I s I saw light folded out of strange in like two seconds.

Coach Mills (03:06:14.294)
and

It's so 'cause like this is the thing is like we talked about this on the last pod where Day even said, Hey, Spider-Man, I understand that his respawn mechanic, the fact that he can just kind of trade and come back really fast before they're back is overpowered. So he wanted to make it so that Spider Man's only started with one one swing instead of like spawning with three swings. And I thought that was an interesting change. and and then like obviously, like I think all of us can agree that any weakness that Spider Man showed in nine point five

Gallus (03:06:18.402)
Holy shit.

mung (03:06:39.097)
Yeah, I agree with that.

Coach Mills (03:06:46.673)
Was not really a fault of Spider-Man, it's just the meta held him down, right? and then they changed the meta and gave you more bands so you could probably pave your meta more as a Spider-Man player, and then simultaneously gigabuffed the character's every combo is so much more powerful. The uptime, the flexibility on the character to deal damage. There is so many cases where you you yeet out for a second only to come right back in and want to uppercut, but you can't quite, it's a little bit too long.

CaptainCoach (03:07:14.572)
Yeah, just just to simplify it for anyone who doesn't play like an assassin type hero, reducing the windows of burst is one of the, if not the best buffs you could receive, not only for an assassin type hero, but for for for any hero in a game where sustain is as high as as it is. The burst window being small smaller means you overload damage in a shorter period of time, which means sustain you have those windows now are even smaller to be able to heal someone. So for a character like Spider Man, this is the ultimate buff.

Coach Mills (03:07:16.275)
It's

CaptainCoach (03:07:44.662)
That you could get.

Coach Mills (03:07:46.141)
And the reason they buffed this fucking character, it's a domino effect. Cloak and Dagger got the busted ass ice block team up, and every Spider-Man player complained online about trying to kill Cloak and Dagger through her nonstop nonsense. in a meta that dive tanks were not playable, by the way, which is like part of their job. So like Spidermans would automatically have a better time when dive tanks are more played. Regardless, they saw all the complaints and they said, Okay, we'll just let you combo even more so you can fit

a kill in between this crazy fucking sustain. It's an arms race. Who wins? I don't know. No one fucking wins. Like like

CaptainCoach (03:08:24.618)
I I'm here for it though. I'm actually here for it. It's gonna be miserable to play against, but hey, at least Spider Man is hard to play, bro. Like I that I don't care. Like

Coach Mills (03:08:34.099)
True True.

mung (03:08:35.749)
I I think this is just a bad change overall. This is the you're gonna say that until you turn around and then your back line's dead, man, and then the fight's over immediately. my god. Okay, well he's gonna one burst you at 350, bro. Like either way, it's not gonna be fun.

Coach Mills (03:08:38.658)
CaptainCoach (03:08:39.31)
I'm a DPS mate now, man.

Gallus (03:08:44.206)
It's like, shit, man, I I forgot to like. Exactly. f whoops, I should banned Spidey and Panther and Cat and Gore and Cap. Like, fuck. Like.

Coach Mills (03:08:46.929)
I'm I yeah.

CaptainCoach (03:08:47.66)
Ha ha ha ha.

Coach Mills (03:08:51.228)
mung (03:08:51.608)
Not legit.

Coach Mills (03:08:54.035)
I w as as a when I play Thor, like I am fine with playing any diver 'cause I can interact. I hate playing all these characters that just poke. So like any buff to this to me makes my gameplay experience feel better. But I do know that it's gonna make a lot of people's gameplay experience feel fucking terrible. Like actually awful.

mung (03:08:56.9)
my god.

mung (03:09:18.642)
I I think this is just gonna end up being a ve a highly banned hero very quickly. I think that's what will happen. So

Coach Mills (03:09:24.08)
yeah.

CaptainCoach (03:09:24.602)
yeah. And gives the the more changes a bit more context too, I

Coach Mills (03:09:28.612)
Yeah, yeah, yo.

Gallus (03:09:28.78)
Yep. And like Spidey Mains can rejoice or whatever, but you're not gonna be rejoicing if your character's a permaban or if the only hero you ever go against is Namor with Ice Squids. Okay? So You know, there's a there's a point at which we're all being unreasonable.

Coach Mills (03:09:37.159)
True.

Hey he

CaptainCoach (03:09:43.82)
Hul Hulk should have killed him in the movie.

Gallus (03:09:46.328)
Haha!

Coach Mills (03:09:47.353)
No shit. Wait, SPOILERS! I actually haven't seen the movie, you motherfucker!

CaptainCoach (03:09:50.254)
I I haven't either I haven't either it was spoiled for me, bro.

Coach Mills (03:09:55.795)
God. He becomes the enemy, bro. He becomes the Okay, anyways. Star Lord. Regenerative shield capacity from a hundred to one twenty five. Wait, wait, wait, wait. I'm rewinding. What do you mean Spider-Man doesn't die in his movie? Anyway, sorry. Regenerative shield capacity from a hundred to one twenty-five. so more HP. More more more overall max HP. His element guns fall off go from fifty percent at twenty-five meters to sixty percent at

CaptainCoach (03:10:01.494)
Sorry.

Coach Mills (03:10:25.011)
20 meters. So you're gonna do more damage, but it's at a closer range, a little bit closer range. the energy regeneration speed for the his boost, the time needed to fully charge goes from 18 seconds to 15. And the blast barrage damage goes up, which is a spin from 75 to 80. These are all pretty sizable buffs to this character. I think we are probably gonna say the same thing we said about Silock, where it's just like it's not Star Lord's power level, it's just his

You know, compares it to everything else in the game, it was just it was too much. So w what do y' do y'all think?

mung (03:11:01.069)
It's just power creep rivals, man. That's all it is.

CaptainCoach (03:11:01.41)
I think this is a Yeah. I I think this is one of the prime examples of the type of like AI balancing that they use. I think they use player t telemetry and and saw that Star Lord's at a certain range around that twenty to twenty five area, maybe like thirty, like their win rate just plummets. Right. And so they're they're trying to kind of push people towards a direction based on on the the data because they could have done any number of buffs. They could have given them more survivability, they could have given him his shield back. This

Coach Mills (03:11:03.286)
Ha ha ha.

CaptainCoach (03:11:29.602)
particular change means I think this is in their mind, they're thinking probably more about the lower ranks because of again, they can like track where players move, they can see where people stand and their win rates and there's all types of info on that. And I think this is one of the ones where they probably use that info to to direct their opinions. And I

Coach Mills (03:11:45.629)
Yeah, but little do they know that now they're gonna just stand five meters further than they were already.

CaptainCoach (03:11:50.241)
Right. They'll figure it out. It it'll it'll it'll take some time, but th the the naturally good ones who have like a a whatever playstyle that fits under this will will will climb. I don't think this is the right way to go about it, but I I do like the buff to the the spinny thing. I think that one's all right. Regenerative Shields like I don't think it's gonna matter too much. I I I'm not a big fan of these changes overall, but he's just yeah, I agree with you guys. Like super power correct.

Coach Mills (03:12:07.795)
I could see that.

Gallus (03:12:19.822)
Yeah, it's just more everything. They're just gonna keep pushing him until suddenly he slots into the meta. And he's fundamentally different and less interactive than he ever was before. And people are gonna find a Star Lord meta less enjoyable than they ever would have if he didn't have to have these changes. like I don't wanna I don't wanna keep hammering at home and being a fucking doomer or whatever, but like bro, he was good. He was good. I think he was a great standard for this game. And yeah, that's about it.

mung (03:12:46.917)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (03:12:48.891)
Okay, moving on to Bucky. single increase the time required to charge a single tainted voltage from five to six. Reduce the slow effect applied upon tainted voltage hitting an enemy from thirty five percent to twenty five percent. And then when selecting the Elsa team up, the enhanced effect reduce bonus health generated by ceaseless charge from seventy to fifty five.

I mean, w what the fucking slap on the wrist changes is this?

CaptainCoach (03:13:16.416)
Fir f first two nerfs first two nerfs are good. The team up nerf is a joke. I think they should have made it stack th three times slower, but kept the maximum maximum effect the same. And I think that's what they should have done.

Gallus (03:13:16.908)
Yeah.

mung (03:13:17.445)
Yeah.

Gallus (03:13:28.056)
Yep.

Coach Mills (03:13:28.057)
Yeah. It charges the same rate. Why didn't they Why can I headshot someone twice and get my max packs? yeah.

Gallus (03:13:33.494)
It's it's still it's still so good, bro. It's just so good. I I don't I don't see you using the punny team up and I wanna use the punny team up because it makes his fing claw arm like do something cool and that's what I like about the character. Like that's the bucky thing.

Coach Mills (03:13:44.861)
They should have they should have deleted this team up and replaced it with something else, in my opinion.

CaptainCoach (03:13:49.122)
I agree.

mung (03:13:49.477)
I agree. The legit that's actually a hundred percent true because l look at it, man, fundamentally it's not fun to play against. He just does these is he feels too tanky. Just too much.

Coach Mills (03:13:58.959)
Agreed. And and you know people call me people have always called me a Bucky Glazer because I like in the past I've historically said that Bucky is not broken. I think he was a necessary evil in a lot of cases, and he had the win rates to like not say that he was broken. But ever since he got this Elsa team up, he's just a stat merchant. He has too much uptime to the point where his design of

CaptainCoach (03:14:02.53)
They'll still be using it.

mung (03:14:03.549)
a hundred percent.

Gallus (03:14:04.408)
Yes, yes.

Coach Mills (03:14:24.795)
supposed to be a defensive oriented denial character, a an answer. He's just a threat where he just gets to run at you with fucking five hundred effective HP. I like I don't understand what why did they push his design this way? I cannot fathom it. I just cannot.

mung (03:14:42.437)
I mean, I I wasn't really a bucky hater before the the team up either. I thought he was okay. I thought it was reasonable sometimes, depending on the meta. But this is just too much. And he's still gonna be very good, so I don't know. Nothing changes really.

Coach Mills (03:14:54.547)
Fucking unreal.

CaptainCoach (03:14:55.724)
I'm telling you, man, he's he's tankier than a lot of tanks. Like just straight up 'cause he's harder to hit. Like it's it's so it and he does range damage and it's like super high. Like I just don't understand what they're Yeah, right. I'm with you guys.

Coach Mills (03:14:59.037)
Yeah he legitimately. Yeah.

Gallus (03:15:00.654)
Straight up.

Coach Mills (03:15:10.321)
And I, you know, I this was the first character I played back in season zero. this was like my first main. And from the beginning, I said that I wanted them to increase the skill expression and skill ceiling of this character because I thought it was too low. I thought he got too much value from his passive abilities. I thought it was too easy to hit his primary. He was not rewarded for hitting headshots. So I wanted them to do something like dramatically increase the size of the projectile, increase its speed, give you more damage for headshots, massively reduce his HP and the amount of shields he gained, maybe like something like 15 or 10.

Gallus (03:15:13.954)
Yeah, same.

Coach Mills (03:15:39.981)
I said that from season zero, and it felt like every patch since then, they have reduced his skill expression, reduced his skill ceiling, and gave him more stats for the easiest parts of his kit. I don't know why. Maybe it's because of low elo players. They're teas they're trying to give them an answer to like they I yeah, this is this is actually what I believe. I believe they were trying to give low elo players an answer to dive in the DPS category, and so they kept on making this character easier and easier and easier and easier.

And I think they have fundamentally ruined what could have been a very interestingly designed character with a high skill ceiling. that's that's actually my take. It it pisses me off. But I think they actually ruined this character for me.

Gallus (03:16:19.01)
Yeah, I agree with that. I think they yeah. They they moved him in a good direction. I I think when they extended the hook cooldown. And I I I can't remember I can't remember what else it was, but it was to me that was like the Yeah, yeah, yeah. They're moving him towards the the riskier stuff and like not the not the sitting back or whatever, but that's the only time they've really moved in that direction. And that that's what I liked about Buggy. I liked going in with my ult, you know?

mung (03:16:19.129)
Yeah, I agree.

CaptainCoach (03:16:21.806)
All right.

Coach Mills (03:16:25.917)
Yes. That's the first like one of the first changes.

Gallus (03:16:43.468)
Not that you should be able to just send it and just like in front of but like playmaking on this character. That that was really fun. I don't want him to be this one-dimensional, you sit back, wait for someone else to fuck up. And also his gun does everything. Like his gun does everything, bro. It's that's just it. Yeah. it's a nerf. I want to be able to use the punny team up more often. And I think the problem you have is that it's a cooldown that fits into his cooldown cycle and reloads his gun.

Coach Mills (03:16:43.793)
Yeah. Playmaking, yeah.

Coach Mills (03:16:55.517)
Yeah.

Gallus (03:17:10.614)
So it's always competing for real estate with the ELSA one which lowers all these cooldowns. So it's a catch twenty two.

Coach Mills (03:17:17.543)
Yeah. Fucking I wish they actually balanced these characters. It'd be nice. okay, last DPS and then we're gonna move on to the supports. Wolverine increase Savage Claw base damage dealt per hit from fifteen to eighteen and increase the percentage damage for each point of rage from one point five percent plus point zero five seven percent to one point five percent plus point zero six two percent.

mung (03:17:20.429)
Agree.

Gallus (03:17:23.276)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (03:17:46.779)
Adjust the bonus health provided upon triggering the regenerative healing factor to no longer be affected by rage, you get a standardized flat three hundred for the second life. And the psychops clean up the percentage damage dealt per kinetic clause for each point of rage from point zero one percent to point zero one two percent.

CaptainCoach (03:18:07.446)
I I think just to speed this up, I'm gonna simplify this real quick. Tanks were really strong. Wolve was not winning as much as they would have liked into all the OP tanks. OP tanks get nerfed. Wolve would be fine with no change because he's actually pretty good right now. They buff him anyway. Double buff, unneeded, overbuffed. This character's gonna be pick band way too strong.

Gallus (03:18:27.97)
Yeah, you need to ban this fucking guy.

mung (03:18:29.731)
Yeah, so w what what the like what does this actually look like in terms of of Wolverine damage?

Coach Mills (03:18:34.715)
He does a shit ton more w he does a shit ton more fucking damage is what it looks like. And and he has more survivability 'cause if he gets caught out in the neutral, which happens to Wol like that's the worst time to get caught out and it's the time that he really doesn't want to get caught out, he gets to have three hundred flat bonus HP just for free, so

Gallus (03:18:39.158)
Yeah,

CaptainCoach (03:18:39.382)
It's just more damage.

CaptainCoach (03:18:52.129)
It's a massive buff.

mung (03:18:53.573)
I mean th like the the problem is you have w with Wolverine, you just have this like dead by daylight, like aura monster character in the lobby. You just have your like your your tanks just grabbed, killed immediately. Like it's just kind of buffing him doesn't feel right. I always his stats weren't the problem here. Unironically. So I don't know. I feel like this is like leg un unironically turbo busted.

Gallus (03:18:53.858)
Yeah. This hero was good.

CaptainCoach (03:19:16.482)
Yep. He was semi gate kept. yeah, go ahead.

Gallus (03:19:16.62)
Yeah, I I think I I I sorry, I did a numbers, I think with the Cyclops team up at full rage or whatever, against a monster hulk, he's doing the flat damage plus a hundred and thirty per swing or something. So it's like four swipes without an attack speed boost is four hundred and fifty damage around. It's okay, bro, I guess, man. Like I guess we're doing that. Like fucking.

Coach Mills (03:19:36.775)
Nice nice.

CaptainCoach (03:19:40.002)
What what what what what dipshit is gonna be playing Hulk though, you know, like

mung (03:19:42.467)
Great.

Gallus (03:19:45.774)
Not you, bro.

Coach Mills (03:19:45.955)
No, i it it's actually crazy that in a fucking Mag Emma thing Dino Hood meta, Wolverine was not succeeding, so they thought, let's change that meta and buff this character crazy. It's like those are the tanks that two of those tanks are the ones that can't be fucking grabbed by you. Mag and Emma have crazy Mag, Emma, and Hood all have tools to not get grabbed by you too.

mung (03:19:46.573)
Mm-hmm.

CaptainCoach (03:20:01.272)
Mm-hmm.

Coach Mills (03:20:16.251)
Like, if anything, this character becoming stronger will gatekeep the other tanks that should be more viable from seeing any play.

Gallus (03:20:21.506)
Yes. Yeah, he he thus yeah, he thus makes the unstoppable tanks n more necessary. Like

Coach Mills (03:20:27.707)
And he yeah, it's Zach and that's fucking dumb as hell. Like why would they do this? It just reinforces the meta we were already in.

CaptainCoach (03:20:33.826)
Yeah. Well, actually I think we we went from a triple tank meta now to a triple DPS meta. So we're trading one for another. It's like it's like the head of Hydra, bro. You cut one down, two come up come back. Like we just can't ever get real balance. They just have to change things for the sake of changing things and and it's just I'm tired of it.

Coach Mills (03:20:39.874)
you think so?

mung (03:20:41.285)
Mm-hmm.

Coach Mills (03:20:49.203)
This is f this is fucking absurd. I just can't believe it. Okay. Let's talk about the strategist. This is probably the most important part of the patch notes, but let's get through it. cloak and dagger and cloak form reduced the vulnerability effect applied to enemies by Terra Cape from 28% to 20%, and dagger form reduced the area healing provided by lifeform's dagger hits from 25 to 20. because they do he do AoE for some reason. the team up with Luna Snow, the Frozen Haven Iced Shield duration from 2.5 to.

CaptainCoach (03:20:57.505)
Always is.

Coach Mills (03:21:19.069)
To two. now that this when we talked earlier about the support nerfs, this is a character that also got nerfs. She got nerfs to her survivability. She got nerfs to her AoE healing, which does nerf her ult charge building rate. That's like the big thing it nerfs. And then the tarot cape also is weaker. not as important, but it does matter. I do think Cloak and Dagger is gonna be noticeably fucking weaker in 10 than she was in 9.5 by quite a bit, because she got she kind of got d like double nerfed.

Gallus (03:21:42.796)
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

mung (03:21:43.733)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (03:21:49.044)
So yeah. Like like like imagine these changes plus ultimate reduced from thir for forty four hundred to four thousand. And it's kind of the same as this. So three nerfs and then the ultimate is four four hundred four hundred more expensive.

Gallus (03:21:49.539)
Yeah.

mung (03:22:04.741)
I mean the terror cape, that's a great change. That's a great change. 28. Think about how many times you just see these cloaks and they're just sending out two terror capes and your tanks just get like, you know. I mean, like, that's good. I like that. The fact that the ice block is even somewhat close to three seconds long is like ridiculous in the first place, too. Like, two seconds is more reasonable. I think the team up is just ridiculous in the first place, anyways. I don't like that type of like one button. You know what it is? Unironically, support players have become more specific.

Gallus (03:22:05.218)
Yeah, this is it's a big deal. Yeah.

Coach Mills (03:22:11.805)
True.

Coach Mills (03:22:21.375)
Ha

CaptainCoach (03:22:22.499)
Yeah.

mung (03:22:31.161)
post team ups because they've just gotten tools that allow them to turn their brain off even more.

Coach Mills (03:22:36.359)
Agree.

CaptainCoach (03:22:36.514)
These are probably the best nerfs I've seen for any hero this entire patch. I w I would have liked to see I would've liked to see bigger cooldown for the the ice block still. But that one's already not the best. So I I I think, you know, lowering the the duration, maybe now you won't go out then come back for a re engage. You might just stay in. So it does open some new possibilities, I think. I think this is a great change.

mung (03:22:39.481)
No, I I agree.

Gallus (03:22:41.556)
Damn. this fellow patch.

Gallus (03:23:01.516)
Yeah, sure. I I think I I think to I don't know if how much the half second affects things much. I know it was pretty razor thin the margin on perfectly changing it chaining every cooldown together, but is it does it work like that in application? I don't know. To me, this doesn't really address the full cooldown cycle. Bubble fade, freeze, bubble fade. That's still there. And that was the main pain point I think people were frustrated with. But overall good.

mung (03:23:20.985)
Yeah.

Gallus (03:23:29.092)
I think really the thing I actually really like is reducing the AoE healing in the on the left click, 'cause that affects her as well. And I noticed that in the patch when they increased that. I noticed it immediately. When she was in her own bubble, left clicking, she was keeping way more health than she used to. and it's 'cause I play Mr. Raf and he has flat damage. So I noticed like immediately. but yeah, anyway.

CaptainCoach (03:23:48.055)
I I I just think these damage amp effects, they have to be toned down. They have to be. Like it's just and if we're not getting we're we're actually getting damage increases on the on the DPS, not decreases, which is what we all kind of wanted. We wanted the damage in the game to go down, so at least they're taking a hit at it somewhere. I just that I mean I agree with you, Mung. That ter terra cape nerf is just absolutely massive. It's massive. So big change.

mung (03:24:08.549)
No, it's yeah I like that.

Coach Mills (03:24:12.077)
I would not be surprised if Cloak and Dagger is pretty bad. like and the reason I think she's bad is she's just gonna be bad in comparison to some of the other supports. Cause you gotta think about how many support or how many DPS are buffed that target her or them. from iron fists to fucking DPS pools to like

all the other divers that we we fucking we went through. Characters like Star Lord, characters like Sylock, characters like Iron Fist, characters like maybe and not probably not Black Cat, but then also like some of the dive tanks if they see more play like Captain America. Like the fact that this character can't crutch on their ultimate as much and they receive nerfs in several ways to the survivability. Spider-Man as well. I think Spider-Man actually can win this relationship a lot more now, more reliably

I really just don't think that you can crutch on cloak and dagger in the same way you can. I might be wrong. I would not be surprised if this character, their win rate, fucking free falls, like three to four percent. I would not be surprised. now this this is like one of my favorite characters to play, by the way. Okay, so increase base health of strat pool from 250 to 275. Reduce the deadpool in your area, the aura effect cooldown.

mung (03:25:13.953)
It could.

mung (03:25:18.553)
Here's another one.

Gallus (03:25:19.83)
Strapple, strapple. Fuck me.

Coach Mills (03:25:31.613)
From twelve seconds to ten seconds and the tw the seventy five percent upgrade now as well, just like with all the pools. By the way, this this is the pool that built levels faster than any other pool, and they could do it safer than any other pool.

Gallus (03:25:43.778)
Yep. And he stands outside of alt-charge nerfs because he builds combo. Right, it's a cooldown. Yep.

mung (03:25:49.029)
Yep.

Coach Mills (03:25:49.329)
Yep. Ts so yep. Yep.

mung (03:25:53.497)
Gonna be very good.

CaptainCoach (03:25:53.518)
So this is the best hero in the game now?

Gallus (03:25:55.471)
maybe, maybe. No?

Coach Mills (03:25:55.843)
No, nope. You know why? Because motherfuckers don't understand. There's three three things that hold this character back. Number one, motherfuckers don't understand how to level this character. That's a big one. Like a lot of people don't. Number two, people on your team don't understand that the radius for your ult is very small. So they have to walk with you to utilize it. And they cannot stand there or they will die. They have to they have to hug you. and number three, motherfuckers supports do not understand that.

You are often intentionally slow rolling jackpot. You will trigger jackpot. And they do not need the support in the middle of your ultimate, which has happened to me at every ELO. From fucking Grandmaster to Eternity. It's happened to me at every ELO whether my fucking cloak and dagger pops soul when I'm intentionally withholding jackpot. So there's a there's a there's a lot of there's miscommu there's misunderstandings on the person that is using the support pool side, and there's misunderstandings about the general populace of this character.

mung (03:26:33.091)
God

Gallus (03:26:33.698)
Yeah.

CaptainCoach (03:26:42.157)
Okay.

CaptainCoach (03:26:49.848)
But with teammates who are actually good, I mean, this is gonna be like a top five hero in the game, no? Like he's gonna be God tier, like S plus.

Coach Mills (03:26:52.839)
Yes.

Very strong, yes. Very, very, very, very strong. Like, you're gonna get you're gonna get walked on by Dino Jeff Deadpool comps. Dino Jeff Deadpool because de cause because Jeff's best team up is a Deadpool team up. And Dino and and Deadpool is really good with Dino because he's a brawl character and they can walk together. So you're just gonna see that core of of of Sutpool Jeff Dino just running at teams and murdering them. With maybe like an Iron Fist thrown in and a white fox? Or no, maybe not.

mung (03:26:57.487)
You'd be very good.

Gallus (03:27:03.776)
Yeah huh. That's the one.

CaptainCoach (03:27:21.464)
Can't wait.

mung (03:27:24.473)
Yeah, there you go. Now we're talking.

Gallus (03:27:26.254)
True. Yeah.

Coach Mills (03:27:26.457)
Yeah or or like some other some other bullshit. I don't know, but it's gonna be it's gonna be something. It's gonna be I mean I I'm gonna abuse the fuck out of it, but you know. Plus that t that f twenty five extra healing means this character can get active a lot more, like dive in and try to actually get kills.

CaptainCoach (03:27:36.738)
Damn right you are. I need my healer, bro.

Gallus (03:27:38.658)
He's

Gallus (03:27:44.984)
Yeah. Yeah, he's gonna be good. And he's he's so fun, so yeah, fuck it. Fuck it, yeah, sure. but it's the team comps that I have a problem with really.

CaptainCoach (03:27:52.044)
I his

CaptainCoach (03:27:57.004)
I at least it's not an easy character getting buffs like this, I will say. It's like the one silver lining here. 'Cause this this is just like absolutely absurd. Like giving that much health to a strategist, like th those twenty five like plus and minus on healers is way more impactful than when a tank gets it. Way more.

Coach Mills (03:28:14.227)
And this character's gonna get max level very quickly, by the way. Like insanely quickly. You the second you get your bouncing bobblehead, which is your first cooldown that you buy, the rest of the kit opens up. You're gonna get that super quickly, and then you're gonna be able to just snowball that into your ultimate, win the first fight, because no one's gonna be even remotely close to their ult because they're gonna be fucking at, you know, forty percent or whatever, fifty percent, and then you're gonna upgrade twice off of the dead bodies and you're gonna like almost a max level pool.

mung (03:28:19.353)
Are you

CaptainCoach (03:28:19.714)
I I

CaptainCoach (03:28:30.154)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (03:28:41.595)
If you win another fight, you're gonna be able to swap the gambit team up, go to the Hella team up, and just be like doing just as much damage as I mean, as a D PS is, plus all the surviv like it like the character's gonna snowball like fucking crazy. I'm just if you don't if you don't Yeah. Go on.

mung (03:28:54.315)
see you're gonna see legitimate demons on this character man like they're just gonna legit farm their all all their upgrades they're gonna walk at you with iron fist with dyno with emma with whatever they want and they're just gonna roll you over very quickly it's gonna be very very very strong because he is immune to the alt the alt nerfs so I don't know we'll see

CaptainCoach (03:28:58.848)
yeah.

CaptainCoach (03:29:13.57)
Yeah. Th this to me is a top top three healer, probably top one. And there's another one that we get to here that I also I'm curious for for Mung's opinion on, Jeff.

Coach Mills (03:29:14.546)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (03:29:23.175)
And don't forget the the super demons on pool specifically that we'll get this character to max level by like 30% of the game and swap to duelist pool with all the levels and cook your shit. so yeah, anyways it's gonna be fun. Yeah. okay, Gambino. So when selecting the team with Magneto, adjust the favorable odds ability effect, favorable odds.

CaptainCoach (03:29:31.887)
Oof.

CaptainCoach (03:29:38.198)
And y you can only ban one. So

Coach Mills (03:29:49.169)
It now triggers a launch effect once upon exploding against the environment of a character, removing the previous persistent launch effect when the spell field is active. If you don't remember, Captain Coach, this is exactly what I wanted from this this team up.

CaptainCoach (03:30:01.698)
They listened. They listened to clear comms.

mung (03:30:02.489)
Good change.

Coach Mills (03:30:03.379)
Yep. Hopefully. Ideally. I think this is great. This is so great.

CaptainCoach (03:30:09.09)
Yeah. I I don't think anyone's gonna disagree. I mean, it was just obnoxious. This is exactly what it needed. Lower the effect, make him apply once. Now you actually have to time it as Gambit to actually block like dashes and what whatnot, jumps. So this is perfect. This is exactly what it should be and it's still a strong ability. People will still probably pick it.

Coach Mills (03:30:26.289)
Yeah, my matchup against this character on Thor is completely flipped now. 'Cause I felt like this was one of the hardest characters for me to beat on Thor. 'Cause he could throw down the bubble and I had no choice but to leave 'cause it lasted too long and it just constantly boot me back and I can't play through it. now I don't. I can just kill him. So

Gallus (03:30:26.507)
Sure, fair.

CaptainCoach (03:30:42.604)
Yeah. It's balanced now.

Gallus (03:30:43.19)
I'm I'm of like a a different opinion. I feel like the best thing they could have done was remove the healing effect. because like now it's now it's more of a cloak bubble. Like I I just don't it it's it's a in ex it's an exclusively like reactive cooldown now. I want him to be proactive with it, and I think that's what was cool about Gambit. And they preserved his ult in favor of nerfing the neutral again and again. And it and it goes along that same logic.

CaptainCoach (03:30:49.657)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (03:31:02.227)
I'll probably

Coach Mills (03:31:05.819)
Cause I've been 'cause I've been playing Gambit a lot in the support challenge that Captain Coach and I are doing, which we hit Celestial last time we played, we're gonna play it tonight too. I think I'll still use that team up really aggressively, even with one boop. because like what I was often doing was like an enemy was trying to retreat around the corner and I'll just booped them back into the open, like one time and it would be enough. Like it's really cool if you can like completely wall off a door, but it did feel cheesy. Like some of the kills I got felt like they weren't really fair.

Gallus (03:31:27.064)
Yeah.

Gallus (03:31:33.912)
Yeah, fair enough, yeah. yeah, the frequency of it was like insane. But even if it was like I feel like the nerf they should have done originally was like two seconds. Or whatever.

Coach Mills (03:31:35.861)
Coach Mills (03:31:41.555)
Cause there's there's so many times where like there's there's like these tiny choke points that a tank has to walk through and then you just throw the bubble behind them and they cannot go back. And like to me that is it just to me it just it was very strong and I don't think people really have utilized the team up as far as it can go. Like most people use it very defensively. I think it was very a powerful offensively, but it was like a broken. Like maybe it's still silly though, but

Gallus (03:31:49.026)
Yeah, and they can't.

Gallus (03:32:06.71)
Okay. All right. Yeah.

Coach Mills (03:32:11.281)
You know. Hey, Gambit nerfs, I'm down for Gambit nerfs. They they still have never addressed the Ultima on this character. It it's I'm still I I really wish they would, but I guess they're just happy with it, okay? I guess. Okay. I I don't know. He's banned he's being banned less than ever, which is something that's surprising, but he's still very banned in the highest of healers, just like not every other Helo besides like

mung (03:32:18.297)
They never will, I don't think, man.

Gallus (03:32:27.011)
Yeah.

CaptainCoach (03:32:34.39)
Well that's I mean, he's more OP than ever too. So I mean I don't know really how much that says. That just means that everything else is even more broken. Like he's never gotten worse, like really. I that that one like micro nerf, but overall like net positive. So yeah.

mung (03:32:40.117)
I know, exactly.

Coach Mills (03:32:41.853)
True.

Coach Mills (03:32:49.253)
Invisible Woman, Orbal Protection Healing on Return from forty five to forty. the first step after entering Invis does not break her stealth if she takes damage within the first second.

CaptainCoach (03:33:04.982)
I I actually think that's a cool change, but they didn't nerf her hard enough in the other areas to where it really counteracts it. I actually think this this change is fine 'cause random damage I think can get you out a little bit and you'll still get pulled out if like you get Yeah, what's up?

Coach Mills (03:33:16.915)
That's why I love I love the bubble on Thor. She could never she couldn't leave me without revealing herself. So I would I would dash her bubble and then she'd jump through it and then get revealed. But now she won't get revealed.

CaptainCoach (03:33:24.099)
Right.

CaptainCoach (03:33:31.168)
Yeah, yeah. I it is gonna be annoying, but I I do s like you gotta look at it from an invis point of view. There is like just a lot of random damage that can kind of mess it up. So I I I think it's fine making it more reliable and there's still counterplay to it. So like you can still find her. Although I I think it should have been like half a second. Like one second I think is too long.

Gallus (03:33:32.081)
Coach Mills (03:33:33.222)
It it does yeah.

Coach Mills (03:33:40.157)
I get that.

Gallus (03:33:51.02)
Yeah, half a second I think it's good.

Coach Mills (03:33:51.589)
It have a second. It is understandable that they don't want to nerf this character too hard in a meta where Daredevil didn't get any nerfs and a bazillion divers got buffed. Like I understand. Especially when Cloak got nerfed that hard. Like to me, this is the character that you run to if you don't wanna like you wanna stop feeding. Like, I I keep fucking dying. What do I do? Alright, I'm going to Invis.

mung (03:33:51.641)
Yeah, yeah.

mung (03:34:12.865)
I mean I I agree, but there's just one thing that they didn't do. I don't know why the shield is still twenty percent damage boost. That is still so crazy to me. That doesn't make sense. It's it's ridiculous.

Coach Mills (03:34:17.199)
I didn't eat the flame.

Gallus (03:34:21.454)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (03:34:25.328)
Yeah.

CaptainCoach (03:34:26.434)
You know what's crazy to me is that that is in the game and I don't think I've ever once had an invisible woman be like, Hey guys, shoot through this thing so we can kill them They don't they just kinda bla they just autopilot. They just kinda autopilot and just do like play the way they normally do.

mung (03:34:34.041)
They d exact thank you. They don't even know. They don't know. It's it's hard autopilot, but it's legit insanely busted.

Coach Mills (03:34:39.215)
It it's w one of those things when they figure they have to figure it out before they nerf it, okay? Like you can't nerf it when no one knows like they're not doing it yet. I'm like

mung (03:34:48.173)
Yeah, but the the problem is it's so brain dead they're just spamming the shield button on everybody, it's getting free value anyways. That's the problem. They're not even thinking it through. Like if you're gonna have that, at least rework it to where it's a toggle. So they have to like actively do it.

CaptainCoach (03:34:53.622)
Right. Right. Yeah.

CaptainCoach (03:35:02.446)
Yeah, that's well said, Mung. That's 'cause it's it's like you can't it should be something that you have to yeah, like toggle or just like a cooldown that you have to have play around. It shouldn't be just something that's yeah, no, I totally agree. Anyway.

Coach Mills (03:35:02.545)
I mean I I a hundred percent agree. I a hundred percent agree.

mung (03:35:10.682)
Yeah, exactly.

Coach Mills (03:35:15.507)
Alright, let's move on to Jeff the Land Shark. Okay, in increase joyful splash, the primary healing from 130 to 140. Increase the Aqua Burst, the alternate fire, from 100 meters per second to 150 meters per second. And the projectile damage from 25 to 30. And in and after the ultimate, increase the healing pool provided healing amount from 100 per second to 130 per second.

mung (03:35:30.501)
Pretty big buff.

CaptainCoach (03:35:42.606)
Mm Mmung is a Jeff Main. L I wanna hear his thoughts.

mung (03:35:44.665)
Me, I I I don't make I've played a lot of things, but

Coach Mills (03:35:45.418)
I didn't actually know.

CaptainCoach (03:35:48.076)
Right. Every time I go to your stream you're you're spitting pee on

mung (03:35:49.887)
Yeah, well that's like I just AFK all that I'm just brain turned off, like I'm not even thinking.

Coach Mills (03:35:50.855)
So so so t he so so tell us, tell us what the fuck what is this? What is this?

mung (03:35:59.245)
I mean these are good changes. I mean, I think it I his healing beam used to be like 150, I think, but the in the past, but and then they when they were doing some reworks on him, they put it to one thirty. So it's noticeable. The right click will be pretty good, actually, as far you'll be far more consistent with it, and the extra damage is nice. The healing pool is an interesting one. 100 to 130.

Coach Mills (03:36:19.325)
How much how much healing is invis is ult per second?

mung (03:36:22.646)
how much is it? It's is it's like one eighty something, isn't it? Could have sworn. It's still pretty far away, I'm pretty sure.

Coach Mills (03:36:27.699)
Like I'm c I'm I'm curious how far away this is from like a defensive ult. Is it?

CaptainCoach (03:36:33.196)
I one hundred eighty does sound right. I think it

Coach Mills (03:36:35.227)
Is it at one eighty? It might be one eighty.

mung (03:36:36.899)
It's it's somewhere around there, I think.

CaptainCoach (03:36:40.118)
No, it's probably less than that actually, 'cause you can actually kill through. Two hundred holy

Coach Mills (03:36:44.726)
it's two hundred per second.

mung (03:36:45.037)
That's two hundred. No, okay. So I see it's actually worse than I remember. So you're still yeah, it's not it's not there, but you

Coach Mills (03:36:49.011)
Okay, so it's not quite to that level. It's not quite. But but it is I mean it it doesn't just do that though. Like you know, it lets you go and playmake potentially too.

mung (03:36:58.169)
Yeah, but I I think this character is just I think he just suffers from bad design. I'm gonna be honest with you. I just don't think it's good. He he enables too much dive if you wanna play him that way. What they should do is maybe rework it down the line. I don't know how. Maybe you can like limit the beam range so you can't enable someone that far away. Maybe something with the bubbles with the speed boost and just give him a different type of ultimate. I don't know. That's what I think. Just think about the amount of times you get griefed on by a Jeff. Like, you know what I mean? Like just

CaptainCoach (03:37:27.532)
Yeah. That's the coolest part about him though, is spitting your teammates.

mung (03:37:28.663)
I just don't think it's good. It's cool, it's hi it's high risk, high reward, but

Coach Mills (03:37:31.023)
I know I I th I actually like Jeff's design. I I'm I'm kinda inter it's interesting that you say that. I I don't think every character needs to be good in every meta. And I think Jeff has con consistently been one of the best dive enablers.

mung (03:37:40.037)
I agree. I j I think just the grief the grief is like so it's too much sometimes. Maybe just rework the eating of your teammates or something somehow. I don't know.

Coach Mills (03:37:45.749)
Ha ha ha.

CaptainCoach (03:37:49.418)
I how about get rid of the healing pool altogether? Jeff can eat his teammates and when he spits them, they get a movement speed boost like they he gets from the bubble and and a passive healing effect that lingers as long as they deal damage or something like that. So they just have like a perma healing. Wouldn't that be sick? They need more things like this in the game. So people wanna get eaten by the Jeff. They want to.

Coach Mills (03:37:49.526)
that g the that grief. I see.

Gallus (03:38:03.724)
Yes, bro.

mung (03:38:03.993)
Could do something like that. You could do something like that. Could be cool.

Coach Mills (03:38:07.293)
Super superstar, superstar.

Gallus (03:38:11.107)
Yeah.

mung (03:38:11.875)
Yeah. That'd be a better way to do it maybe.

CaptainCoach (03:38:12.31)
And there there needs to be more synergistic mechanics like that that are fun for the Jeff and Skillful 'cause it's like, okay, where do you shoot Well okay, we have a a Luna in my mouth and a Hulk. Do I shoot them both in or maybe a goal like and there's all sorts of cool things you could do. They don't encourage that type of stuff though. And and

mung (03:38:25.689)
Yeah, they don't. I agree. That could be cool. I I'd actually kinda like that. At least try it out.

Coach Mills (03:38:28.563)
I I don't know why I just thought of an idea where it's like Jeff goes underwater and he like swims a fucking like a like a like a think on the ground like he's he swims and it's like painted in water and it's like it's like speed boost and healing. Like people jump on it, like they're running like a slip and slide. Like he basically gets to pave the way for like an aggressive team to like fucking e I don't know. I'm thinking I'm I I think there's a lot of fun things they could do with this ultimate if they wanted to. But

CaptainCoach (03:38:45.718)
I coach Mills sounds like a

Mills, y y you sound like a guy who just took

CaptainCoach (03:38:56.334)
You you sound like a guy who d who just took S L L S D and is describing his dream.

Coach Mills (03:38:59.047)
I think this character's gonna be a fucking menace, bro. He's gonna kill like he's gonna he's gonna just straight up kill me. Like I don't know, I don't know. Isn't this character just gonna win a one v one with like half the DPS roster? Or am I tripping?

mung (03:38:59.629)
Mm-hmm.

CaptainCoach (03:39:03.404)
Is this thing on? Can you hear me, Mills? Is he lagging?

mung (03:39:09.069)
Mm.

CaptainCoach (03:39:11.394)
Mills, can you hear me?

mung (03:39:11.813)
I mean he's gonna be pretty good. Yeah, we ca we can hear you, bro. I think he's actively ignoring that.

Coach Mills (03:39:12.659)
wait wait did I mute myself? shit. no I I no I I I muted my fucking audio. I didn't hear anything you said. What did y'all say?

CaptainCoach (03:39:21.435)
I said you sound like a guy I was I was usually you stop when I joke we make a joke.

Gallus (03:39:22.006)
What the fuck?

Coach Mills (03:39:24.305)
Ha ha no, I didn't hear I no I no no No I I when I put my when I put my hand down when I was doing the fucking Jeff Wall thing, I I muted my headset and so I didn't hear anything just said. I thought What did you say? Wait, wait, wait, wait.

mung (03:39:27.31)
Ha ha ha.

CaptainCoach (03:39:35.73)
man, I had a zinger, bro. When you were describing like I think Jeff should like swim around under the sea. I'm like Bill sounds like a guy who who did drugs and is describing his dream. Like like took like it's it's like higher, so like you and Jeff like when I That's funny.

Coach Mills (03:39:44.838)
that's gonna

Coach Mills (03:39:50.043)
It's the ultimate reality like when you dreamed of a job. You know what I'm saying? Like it's like that like no, I didn't hear that shit at all. I thought I'm just going crazy. No, because I saw Gallus like s like mouth words, but he's he said stuff muted before or like like mouth words but didn't actually say it several times. So I assumed that was the case. I didn't I wasn't looking at any of the other I wasn't looking at y'all. Okay, all right. I guess Okay.

mung (03:39:54.202)
Ha ha.

CaptainCoach (03:39:59.563)
You just kept going, bro.

CaptainCoach (03:40:17.046)
We heard it.

Gallus (03:40:18.786)
Yeah. Jeff Dano.

Coach Mills (03:40:19.609)
Okay, yeah, okay, yeah. My bad. I missed the entire conversation. Fuck me. Okay, anyways, moving on to Loki. Mystical Missile, which is his primary healing amount, goes from ten to fifteen. casting deception increased the continuous self healing during stealth from twenty to thirty per second.

CaptainCoach (03:40:38.52)
Former rank one Loki does not like these changes at all. I talked to him yesterday. Not a fin. Nexus does not like these changes whatsoever. He says they're pushing him too far down a heel body playstyle and they need to focus in on the things that make this guy fun to play. That's what it more or less what he said. I would tend to agree.

Coach Mills (03:40:43.463)
Who's that? the Nexus?

Gallus (03:40:56.162)
Yep.

Coach Mills (03:40:58.331)
Agreed, I can see that. I also don't think this character needed a fucking buff. Why are we buffing a character that was top four?

mung (03:40:59.781)
Take his word for it.

Gallus (03:41:06.894)
I don't know, bro.

CaptainCoach (03:41:07.126)
Yeah. Fuck it. Because the support's got nerfed and this is their their justification, I'm telling ya.

mung (03:41:08.505)
Yeah.

mung (03:41:13.283)
People suck with it in low elo, that's why probably.

Coach Mills (03:41:13.863)
Now now I will say the magic missile healing buff is not as big as it looks. Like it looks like a 50% increase in healing. It's not, because most of his healing comes from the AoE that is applied. But it is still an unnecessary hero buff. I think that buff, combined with his increased survivability with his deception, is gonna mean that the ult nerf is not gonna be felt by him.

CaptainCoach (03:41:15.734)
That too.

Gallus (03:41:16.418)
Yep.

Gallus (03:41:26.392)
The spellfield, yeah.

Coach Mills (03:41:41.839)
But bas that basically those two changes neutralizes the ultimate.

Gallus (03:41:45.154)
Yes, and also synergizing with like a Dino Comp because it's a projectile and he's the easiest to direct hit.

Coach Mills (03:41:49.351)
No shit. no. Wait, wait, wait. Okay, so here's the meta. subpull Loki Jeff. Subpull Loki Jeff. Dino Thing.

CaptainCoach (03:41:53.379)
Sure.

Gallus (03:41:58.583)
Yeah, yeah.

mung (03:42:00.389)
I could see it.

Gallus (03:42:01.506)
Dead b giga hill slop. Just charge him up.

CaptainCoach (03:42:01.698)
Dino thing. Thing will still be good. And then like wolves to counter

mung (03:42:03.695)
Yeah. Yeah, things will be good for sure.

Coach Mills (03:42:08.017)
Yeah. Or or or or Wolf, yeah. Well that's not yeah, insane. But I I'm not gonna lie, like it some of these supports that I think are gonna be like like d Sutpool, Jeff and Loki, I think that if any of those stay in the meta, it's healthier than what we had before, probably. Mantis, we will talk about mantis in a second. Mantis, Luna, Cloak are like the three that I really had a problem with and

CaptainCoach (03:42:11.47)
Just max brawl.

Coach Mills (03:42:37.139)
They got hit more.

CaptainCoach (03:42:37.6)
Mm, Mantis Mantis is still be good, I think.

mung (03:42:37.849)
We'll have to see how it plays out, man. It could be cancer too.

Coach Mills (03:42:40.103)
Well w yeah, well Okay, we'll we'll we'll we'll we'll hit it in a second. let's talk about Luna Snow. Increase self healing provided by the cryo heart from thirty per second to thirty five. So this is when she either claps or uses the snowball. and when selecting the white fox team up, remove the self cleanse. I'm not gonna lie, I fucking I I legit clapped. I thanked Guang Guang, I kissed his head.

CaptainCoach (03:42:44.888)
Yeah.

CaptainCoach (03:43:07.692)
Nope. Nope. Not clapping. Nah, nah, we don't we don't give them praise for a change that should have never been in the game. And then they use it as an excuse to give Luna yet another buff. No, sorry. I'm not g I'm not letting you guys applaud this. Yeah, okay, they did something really dumb and undid it. No, no, you're not allowed to. I did.

Coach Mills (03:43:07.751)
This is the best. It's the best. It is undoubtedly it is no

Gallus (03:43:09.068)
Ha ha.

Coach Mills (03:43:16.007)
I mean I

mung (03:43:19.141)
True. No, you know you're not wrong.

Coach Mills (03:43:23.293)
No, I'm applauding it. I'm applauding it. No, cause I didn't think that they would. I didn't think they would undo it. You actually you actually thought they would undo the Like my god, dude. Luna Luna players, they think that this was good. Like I I I read so many takes online that they said that this was the best thing ever. Somehow being able to just yeet yourself out of Angela ult or Grootolt or any fucking form of outplay, you could be grabbed by Spider-Man and yeet yourself out of it mid combo.

It was the dumbest thing they've ever done.

CaptainCoach (03:43:53.74)
I don't disagree, but it should have never been in the game. Like I'm not disagreeing with you, but like I'm just saying your praise is needs to be allocated elsewhere. This is not a good like this this is them now saying we're taking this away, we're nerfing supports, here's another little buff to Luna.

mung (03:43:55.777)
It is

Coach Mills (03:44:06.001)
I mean th they could've they could have just but they could have just replaced this with remove the self cleanse effect on the team up. Now when sh qu when the team up is selected, Cryo Heart gives thirty five per second instead of thirty. Like it like it the the White Fox team up is not that good without this. Like it doesn't really do like it's a bad team up. It doesn't really do anything, in my opinion. Like it's okay, but like you would probably prefer the Adam team up now, which I think is steps weaker than than this team up. So like like that

That's kind of how I think about it is it's like d sh they basically deleted her team up.

CaptainCoach (03:44:42.392)
Good. Delete Luna now.

mung (03:44:43.109)
I mean it was just it was just the most cringe way. It was just the most cringe way to do a team up. So you get hit by an ability, someone someone got you and then you just press one button. And then you get out of it. Like why?

Coach Mills (03:44:43.161)
Okay.

Gallus (03:44:43.821)
Ha ha ha.

CaptainCoach (03:44:52.824)
She's a support. Why why doesn't she have that like use that on someone else, like to get out once they're already hit? That'd be sick.

Gallus (03:44:53.144)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (03:44:57.595)
Yeah, they cleanse them, right.

mung (03:44:59.055)
Yeah, that'd that'd be more reasonable. Like a self cleanse w get out of jail free button. I just don't like that.

Coach Mills (03:45:03.175)
Well he here here's the reason I didn't think they were gonna do this.

Gallus (03:45:04.28)
Yeah, I think I think overall overall the the button in the team ups, in one or two of the team ups, to save yourself, if players are really needing that, then have it be one of the team ups and have it be the worst team up. It just has to be the worst one. Like the other one should be way better. I don't care like how we balance it to get there and I I'm like pretty anti power creep as is visible right now. But like look, if C and D needs the self freeze team up and people really like it, sure. The other one should be way better. Way better.

Right, if people need that button, fine, but they should be losing value if they pick it.

Coach Mills (03:45:40.647)
This is the reason, Cap, why I think that I'm very happy with this change is because there's a character in the care the game that should not be named that has a cleanse button that gets to throw it on themselves or a teammate and just cleanse them of all effects and damage. They become immortal. And people I have bitched about that since the beginning. Death and Gaming has bitched about that since the beginning of Conception. And they have never removed it or changed it in any dramatic way. They just kept it in the game as a part of the No, no, it's no, I'm talking I'm talking about Kyriko.

CaptainCoach (03:46:06.561)
Luna ult?

Coach Mills (03:46:10.375)
So Kirko Suzu, she just gets to cleanse herself, basically. It's like she's un intangible. She it heals her. It No, but but no, but it's an ab it's an ability on the character. And then like that to me, it's just like it's a White Fox team up, it's on Luna. I was just like, when I saw this on the character, I'm like, this is they just gonna keep this shit on here. Like they're like we're fucking cooked. Like that's what I thought. So, anyways. That's why I'm giving them a little bit of props, but I I do understand what you're saying, which is just like

CaptainCoach (03:46:17.228)
You're describing Luna Alt though. Yeah, like you're complaining about Yeah, I got you.

Gallus (03:46:17.422)
I thought you meant game.

Coach Mills (03:46:38.831)
It it's a nonsense thing that should have never been designed. I agree. I agree.

Gallus (03:46:42.238)
Yeah, I think of everything on the patch, I was happy to see that. I'm also at the end here, right? Like by now it's like my my my expectations have adjusted by the time I'm reading this and I'm like, yeah, that's that's pretty good. But I will say it's like the patch after they introduced it and they responded to something people were hating about Luna and they removed it within the t within the span of like one or like a full season. So I was kinda like, okay, like they're learning a little, you know.

Coach Mills (03:46:47.975)
Yeah, we're c we're we're yeah.

Ha ha ha.

Coach Mills (03:47:13.031)
Mantis. Increase the charge time for the single life of Orb from 3 to 4 seconds. When selecting the team with Starlet, reduce the Healing Flower's heal amount from 12 plus 3% per target target's maximum HP per to 10 plus 3% target target's maximum HT per HP per. Reduce the enhanced healing flower effect from 15 plus 3.5 to 10 plus 3.5.

When selecting the team up with Adam, increase the the flower's healing effect from ten plus two point five to twelve plus three. In so form increase the healing provided, you know, five seconds to thirty or five per second to thirty per second. Increase the healing field radius from five meters to eight meters.

This is a this is pretty good, right? This is this is I mean, like it's a pretty sizable nerf to the character.

CaptainCoach (03:48:04.002)
Yeah. It's a good nerf. The leaf, the orb, that's the biggest thing. Three to four. That's what you need for headshots to farm. I play a little bit of mantis. I I ran her to Celestial back in I don't know what season, just only Mantis. this is a great way to nerf her because that life orb now is going to encourage Mantises to play more aggressively. This is a nerf actually appropriately I mean it's it's targeted to all ranks. It's actually gonna probably affect lower ranks more.

Coach Mills (03:48:07.771)
Mm-hmm. Three to four.

CaptainCoach (03:48:29.752)
Because I think the higher rank players will be able to adapt. And I think, yeah, with as far as the team ups go, you'll probably just be using the Adam one, which while it is still very useful, is going to p push you more into a niche and having you're gonna have to only really be able to play Mantis viably in certain team comps. I if I think with like Brawl, like where you can get that AoE healing. I think this is gonna bump it down enough to where other picks are gonna be more viable than her. So I actually think this is great change. Probably probably

the best change I could have done.

Coach Mills (03:49:01.655)
And also don't forget that she's a support that does get her value from half healing and half damage. Both sides are gonna affect her the nerf to ult charge as well.

mung (03:49:09.049)
Yeah.

CaptainCoach (03:49:11.462)
And you'll still be able to pick her and and brawl heavy with and farm that AoE. It's just not gonna be as good, which I mean now she has less damage amps, she has less healing, she's just is just gonna really put her in line with everybody else. Really put her in line. And I think good Manthes will still find a way. Like I she's still hard to play and has a high skill ceiling, so I think this is

mung (03:49:30.007)
I think she's always gonna be fundamentally pretty good. I mean I don't know how much this this reduces like the amount she's picked, but we have to see how it plays out. I think it's a at least probably one of the better ways they could have handled a nerf on her.

CaptainCoach (03:49:43.436)
I I think she'll be like A tier. I actually think it'll be meaningful enough to where she's not like hard metal. But yeah.

mung (03:49:45.829)
We'll see.

Coach Mills (03:49:47.781)
It is very funny how she can fly around in her soul form after she dies and just heal people 30 per second. Like like she like she could die and then follow around her star lord and just give him fucking 30 healing per sec it's at I can just imagine some troll shit that it can be done with it, but like you can literally like follow. like Daredevil, go in, go in, let's go. Ugh. Like he is like flying with that.

CaptainCoach (03:50:02.048)
Yeah. That that's a little goofy.

mung (03:50:04.069)
That is a little goofy for sure.

CaptainCoach (03:50:14.306)
But it d it do it does kind of encourage her to be more aggressive, no? And I think that's kind of fun. Like w you know, she'll be more aggressive, more willing to die and and die near her teammates, right? So I think it kind of encourages i even though it's it's clearly a right, it's it's clearly like kinda dumb, but I I'm here for it. I think it's all right.

Coach Mills (03:50:27.119)
Inting and encourage Net Ease is encouraged inting. Yeah. No, I I I I actually I like changes like that because it's it it adds a different type of playstyle, which is cool. Okay, we're w comment Ultron after casting imperative firewall, reduce bonus health to ultron from sixty five to forty, reduce the bullet bonus health provided to nearby allies from fifty to forty.

CaptainCoach (03:50:39.202)
Feel. Yeah. In Teen Mantis video when Mills

Coach Mills (03:50:55.783)
New effect postcast. It provides Ultron a continuous 20% self-heal effect lasting for three seconds.

CaptainCoach (03:51:05.102)
Okay, I wanna kinda go down this one. I have my opinions. Whether or not you guys think this is a buff or a nerf. Mills, you wanna you wanna start? I'm not gonna give my opinion.

Coach Mills (03:51:18.051)
I Yeah. I I I I think overall it's gonna be a nerf because I think it nerfs like the nearby allies healing, like in triple support, especially it's nerfing this character. yeah, I I think it overall it's gonna be a nerf, but they it is weird because they did give him some amount of compensation. Like the extra survivability on himself means that he could probably go for like a little bit more long extended like mini flanks.

CaptainCoach (03:51:19.79)
'Cause I've I've been hearing mixed signals, but I I feel pretty strongly about it.

Coach Mills (03:51:47.559)
With someone. so yeah, I don't know. That's that's that's probably my first take. I don't know what y'all think.

CaptainCoach (03:51:53.974)
All right, Hung, do you think it's a buffer nerf?

mung (03:51:55.087)
I mean it's situ it depends on how the Ultron plays. I I don't I don't know, man. It's a bit of a nerf. It could be a bit of a buff. You know, his survivability is kind of increased a little bit, twenty per second? I don't know, man. I mean Ultron's one of those characters that just so slop designed that I just don't like it. I I I never did. It's just a DPS with a healing drone. It's always boring. It enables the worst types of comps in the game, like.

Coach Mills (03:52:21.745)
Mm-hmm.

mung (03:52:24.261)
It should have just been a big nerf, just kill the character forever and be done with it.

Coach Mills (03:52:27.219)
Ha ha.

CaptainCoach (03:52:27.786)
Yeah. Alright, what do you think, Gallus?

Gallus (03:52:28.302)
I think it I think it's a net neutral if not a buff. And my reasoning for this is yes, like yes, there's a bonus health nerf, especially like penny team up, whatever. But the effective HP he gets to do shit that's aggressive, and this character is good at DPSing, but importantly, you can pop this and then pop your ult. So this will cover this will cover you beginning an aggressor an aggressive ult as well.

CaptainCoach (03:52:52.59)
That's a very good point.

Coach Mills (03:52:55.379)
That's a guy, that's a good point. You don't need the fucking you don't need the fucking snowflake to to ult. It's a b that's a big deal.

Gallus (03:52:56.984)
For playmaking that sense.

Yeah, yeah. I think this like the twenty second heal over time is nothing to like to laugh at. That is good. Yeah.

CaptainCoach (03:53:07.938)
Yeah. So you you all make really good points. Mills, you're saying the overall value is less. I think you're right. You know, I think in in maybe even in pro play, you you're probably gonna feel this a bit more because you're getting more value with those shields and using them at high impact moments to use that damage amp, right? So you're right about that. Mm like for sure. Like people with that heel are now gonna play a little differently and and use it as a way to be more aggressive and yeah, Gallus with the all like this is to me is like a a pretty big buff.

I I I think this is actually, especially in in a ranked environment, not so much in like the highest levels like pro play, because it gives him a level of solo survivability and then solo playmaking that this hero didn't really have before. And and the shield is still going to be enough to avoid most damage thresholds. Like it's not going to matter too much, but that healing now is going to enable Ultron to make his own plays and ultimately be more survivable. I think this is a pretty, pretty big buff for a hero that was already

mung (03:53:56.921)
Yeah.

CaptainCoach (03:54:03.478)
quite strong.

mung (03:54:05.349)
yeah. I can see it.

Coach Mills (03:54:06.845)
Yeah, I don't know why they just send a flat nerf this character, but I still don't think they understand what to do with Ultron. I'm not gonna lie. It like Ultron's a character that has a high win rate and low rank. So what is the reasoning? This character has a high win rate and low rank and is an enabler of the worst compositions in high rank that no one likes. So what the fuck? Like i like if they're balancing for casual or competitive, this character should just get nerfed, no?

Gallus (03:54:13.74)
Yeah.

CaptainCoach (03:54:33.164)
Ultron'll I think be one of the most important picks this season because I think he's going to be a triple heel hero or enabler that doesn't feel shitty to go triple four. I think that's really gonna be the big reason. I Mantis will s feel shitty in some situations. I think Ultron with those drones will always not will always feel fine. And now he has his yeah, he has his own survivability. So I think we're we're in an Ultron meta, guys. I really do. Ultron, he'll pull Jeff

Gallus (03:54:52.6)
Yeah, I think you're right.

Coach Mills (03:54:59.207)
Hey, yeah, hey, all I'm saying, all I'm saying is Spider Man and Iron Fist, I think, do fuck with iron with Ultron. I'm just saying. Like I I actually I don't actually know. I know that Ultron Triple has historically countered Spider Man, but I'm not so certain that that's the case anymore with

mung (03:54:59.62)
Mm.

CaptainCoach (03:55:16.918)
I think the heel will will help him deal with Spider Man just fine.

Coach Mills (03:55:20.273)
Well, how long is the imperative firewall cooldown?

mung (03:55:20.377)
Yeah.

CaptainCoach (03:55:23.918)
like twelve seconds or something like that. So you this the Yeah, this is more overall defensive utility on Ultron alone. Less than like a burst window, but it's still enough to where you won't get bursted. And but the heal twenty per second is not nothing. It's it's decent. It's not a whole lot. So you'll you'll cycle that and then when you drop low again, you'll probably dash. And I I I think he's gonna be picker ban, but we'll see. We'll see.

Coach Mills (03:55:25.715)
Okay, then yeah, it's probably fine. If it was longer than that, yeah. If it w if that's yeah.

mung (03:55:53.689)
Think it's pretty good.

CaptainCoach (03:55:54.401)
I sp I I think we're still in a triple heel meta, by the way. I s I think. 'Cause the way you didn't support Alt Charge down to sixty. So I mean that's kinda where we're at right now. Triple heel's still good.

Coach Mills (03:56:06.321)
Last change, White Fox. The direct healing from the Yao. that's just the primary, right? 50 to 55. I don't I don't I don't know what the fuck that is. Bounce hit healing. Yeah. bounce bounce hit healing from 35 to 40. During the awakening, increase the healing provided by surrounding healing fields from 35 to 40. I know you've been playing white fox a What do you think, Captain Cage?

Gallus (03:56:13.687)
Left click, yeah.

mung (03:56:13.901)
Yeah.

CaptainCoach (03:56:15.561)
Ha ha

Gallus (03:56:18.466)
That that's the translation is left click. That's what

CaptainCoach (03:56:34.358)
Yeah, as a celestial white fox player, guys. Yeah, it's soon to be eternity. I'm gonna be eternity tonight. yeah, it's it's fine. a lot of people were saying this wasn't going to be enough. I I think it's fine. Like I don't think you should buff her neutral healing, but it's obvious that they want all these supports to have like a equal level of of power budget, and white fox's neutral healing is just way lower than other.

Coach Mills (03:56:36.564)
Let's go Raz up. Let's go. Yes sir.

CaptainCoach (03:57:02.456)
heroes. This is already such an OP ability though, so I I don't think they should have buffed her this way if if you really want my opinion. But in the context of the game, you know, being realistic like you were talking about with Silock, yeah, whatever. This is this is fine. This is going to make her playable. But yeah, not not the way I would have buffed her.

Coach Mills (03:57:16.753)
Right. A I do know like if we ever do end up in like a real dive meta, this character, if they keep getting power crept like this, is gonna become insane. Like if we ever really

CaptainCoach (03:57:25.996)
White Fox is she's super broken. She's so OP. She's just she just can't fulfill the role that other heal she's she's pushed out by better healers. I really that's it. She's OP but she just doesn't do what the other healers do as good, like just o healing per second. Really. I mean that's all it is.

mung (03:57:28.63)
She's good.

Gallus (03:57:29.144)
She's so good.

Gallus (03:57:41.462)
Exactly. Right? S thus thus make room for the job that White Fox does, not make her do the other healers' jobs. Right? Is what they should they should aim for. I think yeah, she's a big shame. yeah, like what they've done with with her ult with the AoE clans, etcetera, etcetera. I think it's it's just more homogenization of the of the hero. Like in the c in the con in in the context of everything else, fine, yep. Make her make her work, sure. but you know, I think something is lost over time.

mung (03:57:48.079)
But I agree.

CaptainCoach (03:57:50.786)
Yeah, well said.

Gallus (03:58:11.436)
with changes like these to a hero like that. But yeah, I think that's that's a good good final change to that patch to sort of round out I guess like my my view on it. Yeah, the nail in the fucking carpet, bro.

CaptainCoach (03:58:21.676)
The nail in the coffin.

Coach Mills (03:58:22.535)
Well and what's that so so to to wrap things up before we get to closing, I wanna I wanna get your actual score from one to ten of the patch. how much do you think it will improve the state of the game? One being almost not at all, ten meaning it will completely flip the game to a like a like a great time. Everyone's fucking having fucking fun and it's super competitive and perfect. Oasis gaming. Yeah.

mung (03:58:23.009)
Mm-hmm.

Coach Mills (03:58:51.827)
if it let me l I I'll go I'll go first. here is I think that this is actually a seven out of ten. I was gonna say six out of ten. I changed my mind, I'm saying seven out ten. which might be pretty aggressive, but I think that the nerfs to specifically Mantis, Ultron, and Cloak and the Luna team up, plus the support change, plus specifically Thing and Mag getting hit, to me is enough.

To move this meta away from whatever the fuck it was before with the old slop, the nonstop, the triple tank, the the hood mat, like just there's just so much nonsense that was in 9.5 that made it so that I felt like no character could see play besides like the top meta four picks in tank DPS and support. And I don't think that's gonna be the case. I mean, we see it, we see Spider Man's, we see Iron Fists, we see all the pools are like way more viable.

So for me, I just think for variety's sake and for the health of the game this was needed. I think they could have gone, you know, a little bit further with some of these nerfs and this could have been a nine out of ten. but but I'll give it a seven out of ten just because I think it's a really good step in the right direction.

Anyone else? Yep, go for it.

mung (04:00:06.133)
I'll go next, man. personally I'm gonna say five out of ten best, maybe a four out of ten. I mean, think about it right now. We got Wolve, Spider Man. Spider Man's a dark horse here. He's gonna be un unironically legitimately per like a either perma ban or or just turbo busted in the game's gonna be unplayable. Then you have Dino Emma comps that are gonna be coming out of the woodworks as well. You have Invis with that busted team up that's sitting there like the Phantom Menace from Star Wars, like I don't know.

Coach Mills (04:00:18.015)
Hey.

Coach Mills (04:00:33.532)
Mm-hmm.

mung (04:00:34.511)
Then you got Iron Fist and then the dead the support pool metas. I don't know how that's gonna all play, man. Like we have to see it first. My rating could change, but I think it's gonna be like a four or five.

CaptainCoach (04:00:46.732)
I guess I'll go next because I I kind of agree with you. I'm at a four. Mills, you said variety for variety's sake. you view viewing the game off of what meta we'll be in rather than the actual feel of the balance, I think, is something that I try not to do. I don't try to be

Coach Mills (04:01:08.307)
I I I'm always in a Thor meta baby. I'm just I'm just I'm just saying But but I give it his line.

CaptainCoach (04:01:10.942)
Yeah, I I definitely get the argument and I think the heroes being introduced and encouraged and that will be strong will be more interesting, more fun. It will just be the more skillful heroes that you see being picked and played that are going to be rising to the top. I I'm okay with that. It's not going to feel good to play though, because I I think we're we're a a lot of those double buffs, you know

mung (04:01:11.155)
Mm-hmm.

Gallus (04:01:11.207)
Yeah.

CaptainCoach (04:01:39.054)
It's like the like I said, the Hydra head. You you you cut down one problem, two more pop up. And and it's like we're we're not making a whole lot of progress here. So in a pivotal moment in this game's future where I where I thought that we needed to slow things down, really I I just don't see that happening. A couple of nice nerfs to team ups that they they seem to be aware of that they need to be nerfed, but overall i it's t t it's not enough. It's just not enough right now. And

Coach Mills (04:01:43.165)
Yeah.

CaptainCoach (04:02:08.824)
w you're making more problems than solutions. And that's not what I I need to be looking for. So to me, even though we're still technically making progress, we're we're not it's like one step forward, two steps back. I can't give it a positive score. So four out of ten for me.

Coach Mills (04:02:23.843)
Okay.

Gallus (04:02:24.654)
Okay, was was the question like the actual feel of the game? What was it?

Coach Mills (04:02:28.883)
Well you know, it's just it's just it like improved in improved the game compared to nine point five. Like like like like basically it would have to be a five to say that it's made in that you know, like a like a substantial positive experience.

CaptainCoach (04:02:32.888)
Patch notes. Like how do you think the patch notes did?

Gallus (04:02:39.116)
Yeah. My my my knee-jerk reaction without like thinking much further was I was actually gonna put it at a three and I was a surprised I was surprised I was lower than you guys. I think because I I don't really know how meaningfully the support alt charge nerf actually changes the dynamic of anything that's going on.

Coach Mills (04:02:49.447)
Wow, okay.

Gallus (04:02:57.644)
Right, there's that, but my number one thing I wanted to see from them was really comprehensive approach, a comprehensive approach to the team-up system. I didn't really see that here, which I think is a shame. And I think that that like I think absolutely all players benefit from a focus on that. now there are changes in there that are good. I think in terms of my personal fun, it's gonna be like a six or seven out of ten.

like Fanta got great changes. I'm not a big fan of Dino, but I think Gore is gonna be really great. he's not really like a patch change though. He's part of the he's part of the game though. in terms of everything else though, it's it's more we're we're changing things around, and I don't know how far into things being one shotted by oppressive dive we've we've strayed into the territory of. So I I think for me it's it's probably realistically all that considered. it sounded like I said.

mung (04:03:29.711)
It'd probably be fun.

Gallus (04:03:51.626)
Three in terms of like kind of what I wanted to see, et cetera, maybe how much has actually changed, but in terms of like my personal enjoyment, I'm like six to seven. So I think it's right in the middle. It's like a five out of ten for me.

Coach Mills (04:04:03.891)
I could see that. And I can definitely understand y'all's y'all's point. I'm I'm trying to make you know be as optimistic as I possibly can. but I can definitely see I mean they're really not fixing the fundamental problems like they could be. I I I don't know if I even believe that they're capable of doing that though. Like I'm maybe I'm I'm I'm well like reason like I like I I I because I talk about like I mean I said it on the light versus flats debate.

CaptainCoach (04:04:18.819)
Yeah.

CaptainCoach (04:04:24.205)
They are.

mung (04:04:25.699)
They probably are.

Coach Mills (04:04:33.601)
what's a like a reasonable or like non non fairy tale expectation. And like a lot of the changes that I truly want for this game, to me, don't feel like they're actually tan tangible. Like they're not they're not gonna happen. And they've consistently done things that go against my ideal vision for the game. So I'm just trying to embrace the vision that they see and try to engage with it as best I can. But I do understand that it's like not it's just not in line with what I would prefer for the game. I just think that like

The entire pl I we we've been doing the support challenge. I don't think that the support experience is really optimal at all. Like in any way. Like it it's it's it's so heel bot centric. there are some supports that don't apply, but like there's so many that do. and

CaptainCoach (04:05:08.142)
It's not fun.

CaptainCoach (04:05:17.996)
I started going to rocket just so you could have more fun mills. It's like I'm not having fun. I might as well let my buddy have fun. Like I this I I just and it's been working. I could just go Rocket Heelbot and you go get kills and it's like that's been working for us. So it's just like

Coach Mills (04:05:22.119)
Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it feels like one of the two supports always has to just play like the fucking just the resource battery. Like you always like one of the two has to play that way.

CaptainCoach (04:05:32.342)
That's miserable.

It's miserable, bro. Healing is not fun right now. We we we chose a bad season to do this challenge. We chose a bad season.

Coach Mills (04:05:40.305)
Yeah, we maybe maybe the worst season to f to do this fucking challenge. And and and it's crazy because it's it's like the fun experience of a character has nothing to do with the power of the character. Like I like like even i when I'm when I'm playing like Luna, like I think I'm more powerful. I'm gonna win more than playing Thor, but I have so much more pleasurable experience playing Thor, even if I lose. because I just get to have agency. Like I get options. I'm not just a resource

Gallus (04:05:40.78)
Ha ha ha.

Coach Mills (04:06:08.487)
Like I'm not this like s extremely powerful resource my team needs and is gonna use. I am like an independent being that gets to do what I need to do or wanna do. So anyways.

Gallus (04:06:17.55)
Yeah. Yeah, it's it's a it's a weird one, man. I think the something that I've been saying recently that I did forget, so maybe I think my baseline like rating is maybe more like a four. is that I really wanted them to nerf some permabands, bro, and they did. They did nerf some permabands. So I am pleased with that. I think that's like a yeah, step in the right direction.

The giga buffing of other stuff in response to the stuff they just nerfed, which thus is unnecessary, is I I do not like. But yeah, I I think overall this is gonna be a more fun season. Like it's gonna be a more fun season. We're gonna see new heroes, and I think we're probably gonna see a lot of gore if we're not banning him.

CaptainCoach (04:07:04.6)
yeah. I mean yeah, if if I if I factored in fun, I'd probably be at an eight or nine 'cause I I'm super excited for Gore, like genuinely. like I said, I really like pet classes, so I I will be finding a way to enjoy this game and it's really just, you know, just go with the flow. Play the broken shit, enjoy it. Like don't get too angry about stuff that's just not within your control and just keep voicing our opinions and try to have a positive outlook.

mung (04:07:18.701)
Yeah.

mung (04:07:26.053)
I mean. Just the the only disappointing thing though about this game, because I j I truly do like this game. I know I like make fun of it a lot, but you gotta understand NetEase does release a new hero every month. They they update this game a lot. It has a ton of potential. And you know, for the for the average player, they probably do enjoy it for the most point. But they promise to actively update these team ups.

Coach Mills (04:07:34.195)
Yeah.

mung (04:07:49.037)
And they never followed through with that. To me, that one was just so disappointing. Because when you implement a new system like this with all these new variables for all these heroes, you gotta remember all these character kits, they're designed on the knife's edges ability. When you start adding in a bunch of new abilities, new breakpoints, like someone like DD. DD's gonna be a big problem down the line one day. Maybe this season, maybe not, but something like that, give him a whole extra ability. Like all of these characters.

You need to look at them very carefully. You gotta maybe do like a weekly team up balance patch, man. That would have been so nice to see. It would have really fixed probably all the problems with nine to nine point five. It would have ended up being maybe like a ten out of ten season, but they just didn't do it. So that kind of just it just ruins it for me.

CaptainCoach (04:08:32.664)
Got a got a question for you, Hmong. So you wanted these week by week changes to the team ups. We don't have a hero releasing in ten point five. Do you think they really gotta hit it out of the park? Are you expecting a a a patch as big and comprehensive as the ten point patch in point five to really kind of bring it home and and get that kind of everything kind of brought in line and

mung (04:08:54.245)
I think we'll get a bigger one for the point five, but I don't think it's gonna be super big, I'll be honest. They have a bad track record of doing big updates and point five seasons. And they always say they wanna sit back and look at how the whole meta evolves for a season before they do big changes. I think we have to accept that's probably what they're just gonna do. I think we'll get a really, really, really big patch in eleven though.

CaptainCoach (04:09:02.211)
Yeah.

CaptainCoach (04:09:10.231)
Okay.

Gallus (04:09:13.122)
Yeah. I think the only other thing I'll say about this patch is I I think one of my chatters said it like with all eyes on this patch, I think they could have done better. I think everyone was waiting to see, and to be honest, most of their

most of their like creator economy as well would probably was all primed probably to be standing there like cheering and like hollering if everything got nerfed. So maybe a missed opportunity there. and I hope some of that gets through to them. You know, like you know, if the if people are if people are waiting for like just nerf everything at some point, you know, fucking do it once. You know? Yeah.

Coach Mills (04:09:38.515)
Agreed.

mung (04:09:47.895)
Yeah, one time at least.

Coach Mills (04:09:50.993)
Well, gentlemen, I I hate to cut this short, but I think it's time to wrap things up and I wanna thank y'all both for coming on. Where can people find and support you? First off, Gallus, what can people do if they wanna support you? They like what you're all about, they wanna hear you break down debates for six hours.

Gallus (04:10:12.598)
It's worst night of my life, bro.

CaptainCoach (04:10:13.388)
These are two of the two these are two of the best content creators right now. Highly highly recommend.

Coach Mills (04:10:16.337)
They're they're insane. I a hundred percent. If you're not subscribed, you're completely missing out to both of them.

Gallus (04:10:19.672)
Thank you, bro. you can find me. I'm Gallus OW on most things. on Twitch and YouTube are the main ones, really. I usually make short form content, but I've started long form recently. And that's a whole other experience. But yeah, I'm usually breaking down the design and balance of the game. And if I'm not doing that, I might be playing some variety or playing Mr. Fantastic. So yeah, thank you guys. I really appreciate it. I love I love the space. I love having these talks. I really, really appreciate you having me on. So

Coach Mills (04:10:41.299)
Hell yeah. Hell yeah. I

Coach Mills (04:10:46.171)
And you're welcome back anytime. You have a permanent spot. Whenever you want to come on, you want to say something, just let us know. Well, you're you're welcome back anytime. And and and Hmong, this is your first time on, but honestly, I've really, really enjoyed you here. I've loved your takes. I loved your insight. I really want to have you back on, hopefully, in the future. I do plan an episode in the future called The Roast of Captain Coach. And it's gonna be like like like legitimately like six haters of Captain Coach. and and

CaptainCoach (04:10:48.272)
Absolutely.

Gallus (04:10:52.216)
Thank you guys, thank you.

CaptainCoach (04:10:53.505)
Absolutely.

mung (04:11:07.237)
Ha ha.

CaptainCoach (04:11:08.338)
What What Bruh, I was gonna say like this format's not even great this format's not even great for Hmong. Like we gotta get Hmong on an episode where like drama's happening. I feel like it'd be way better.

Coach Mills (04:11:14.343)
The

Gallus (04:11:15.134)
Yes.

Coach Mills (04:11:19.539)
Well that's what I'm saying. The horse of catching coach would be fucking sick. I'm just gonna get everyone that's ever beat with you ever on the pod and I'm gonna I'm gonna egg them on. I'm gonna read some questions. It's gonna like fucking and and where can people where can where can people come and support you if if if if they like what you're all about, they like your content, they wanna see more of you, where can people where should people subscribe or come support you?

Gallus (04:11:19.853)
Ha ha ha.

mung (04:11:20.005)
no, for real.

mung (04:11:31.673)
I mean otherwise

mung (04:11:47.907)
Well if you haven't seen the Mutt of the Week, guys, check that out. It's a nineteen episode cinema series covering a bunch of people from the community. It's only on YouTube just like me. YouTube slash Mung underscore Mr. And you know, hopefully I'll see a couple of you there.

Coach Mills (04:12:02.247)
Let's fucking go. Let's fucking go. wait. Real quick, you need a f dude, I it I so Captain Coast is asleep. I was trying to contact you. You're impossible to fucking contact, bro. I go to your YouTube, I don't see the Discord. I go to your Twitch, I see a Discord, the link's expired. I go to your I go to your ex, your messages are closed. I can't message you. How the fuck am I supposed to contact this guy? I'm like, okay, I'm fucking cooked. So anyway, anyways, you're a hard man to c to connect with, but I I really appreciate you coming on.

Gallus (04:12:04.629)
yeah.

mung (04:12:12.106)
Yeah Well it's is it's not ling my god.

mung (04:12:23.395)
I'll I'll fix that. I'll fix that for sure, man.

Coach Mills (04:12:31.601)
And I want to thank y'all for watching at home. Make sure you check out these guys. I really highly recommend both of them. Smash the like, subscribe on us, and their channels. And we'll see you next time. Peace. real quick, Gallus, yours is not done uploading. so wait, let me stop it.

CaptainCoach (04:12:41.214)
Gallus (04:12:42.562)
Subscribe to ClearComms.

CaptainCoach (04:12:45.356)
No sir.

mung (04:12:46.085)
Down.

Gallus (04:12:47.916)
Yeah, it it always does that, yeah.