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At SoulStirred, we believe life is unfolding as it should and we're dedicated to telling the truth of our stories, while giving respect to all the characters. We will surface the million tiny moments that have shaped us. We are opening our hearts and inviting you in.
Each week, we’ll come together, sometimes with other incredible thinkers, creators, and adventurers — to generously share stories of self-discovery, recovery, triumph and what it means to live life on purpose.
We will delve into the fabric of life to explore the threads that weave our stories of growth, failure, faults and magnificence- the tapestry of the human experience.
Emily Garcia (00:03)
Welcome lovely listeners to SoulStirred Stories of Growth and the Human Experience. I'm Emily Garcia. And I'm Kasey Clark. We will be your guides on this journey. We are so glad you are here. Each week, we'll come together, sometimes with other incredible thinkers, creators, and adventurers, to generously share stories of self-discovery, recovery, triumph, and what it means to live a life on purpose. No matter where you are in your own journey,
connection is here for you at SoulStirred Settle in, take a deep breath in, and let's inspire each other. Welcome to SoulStirred
Emily (00:49)
Hello, SoulStirred listeners. Welcome back. We are excited that you are here to share this special episode.
Kasey (00:56)
Today, we are going to talk with you about a book that is really close to our hearts. It is The Four Agreements by Don Miguel Ruiz, a little Toltec wisdom we thought should be shared with our listening audience. And especially for SoulStirred where we talk about stories of growth and the human experience, this book, The Four Agreements, we feel is like a playbook for how to be human.
It's a really small, short, concise little read and living by the content of this book is a practice. It takes a daily reminder to return to the agreements. And so we're gonna have a conversation today about what the agreements are, what it's like to live in the practice and why it can feel a little bit like a hard thing. So.
Turning to Don Miguel Ruiz and the four agreements, the first one, the first agreement, is to be impeccable with your word. And what he means by that is to work yourself towards never thinking or speaking a negative thought about yourself or others. Those words feel loaded to me, M.
Um, tell us what it's, what it's like for you when you work towards living in, in alignment with agreement number one, being impeccable with your word.
Emily (02:22)
Yeah.
Agreement number one, being impeccable with your word, is probably for me the hardest agreement. Because we are always alone with our own voice in our head. The voice that is challenging you to be better and sometimes criticizing you. And so I can say that.
Kasey (02:39)
Mm-hmm.
Emily (02:55)
it hit in my life, it is a moving target. There are times where I feel like I am impeccable with my word. I speak kindly to myself and I speak kindly about other people around me and I don't want to put energy into saying anything negative about anyone. And then times where I feel like my willpower is down and I get
Kasey (03:12)
Mm-hmm.
Emily (03:19)
really upset with myself and it can be something simple, but yeah, that is the hardest one because I always have this voice that's like, hey, what are you doing? You know, you could do that better. Or you might have offended that person with what you just said and then I'm like, why did I say that? Those kinds of things can happen. Yeah.
Kasey (03:30)
Mm-hmm.
Absolutely, absolutely. And there's like this part, I think, that lives in all of us, right? Where there's like, do more, be more, get that even more perfect. And so the wisdom in Don Miguel's, you know, urging us to be impeccable with our word is really to settle in and lean in to letting what is in this now moment be enough.
and be right, whatever that word means, just as we are and as it is, right? And I, like you, especially when I experience a life fall or failure, the volume on the voice that says, you're not good enough or you're too much seems to get turned up. And then.
Emily (04:18)
Right.
Kasey (04:35)
What I've also noticed is the harder I am on myself, the harder I am on others. The flip way to say that is the more compassionate I have become with myself and my own human experience and failing, the more compassionate I am able to be with others around me.
And so I think one of the things that we get up to in the human experience is we find people who are like, we judge in others what we're not okay with in ourselves.
Emily (05:12)
Right.
Kasey (05:13)
We find people who we perceive to be doing worse than we are in the areas of our life that we feel we're doing poorly, and we cast judgment. And so this first agreement, I think, really is about healing that relationship with self and with other and between self and other, that when we're able to hold ourselves in a place that-
knows that failing is part of being human. You know, I like to say we're either winning or we're learning. There really is no failing. Like failure comes so that we can get uncomfortable and grow, right? And so I think this agreement invites us to hold all of those parts of the human experience with a whole lot more compassion.
Emily (05:53)
Right.
Kasey (06:03)
and then hope that the voices in our head follow suit.
Emily (06:06)
Yeah, it's an interesting thing because part of that first agreement is that you're using the power of your word in the direction of truth and love. And when you come back to that, it makes sense. However, I would say in the day to day moments, like if someone I love is being hurt by someone else, like someone else is talking about them, I...
Kasey (06:07)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Emily (06:34)
realize the thing that comes out of me is I want to protect that person I love and I'm so mad at the person or the people who are causing them pain. And so my words at that time are not in the direction of truth and love. They may be truth and love for the person I love, but really what you were saying about we see in other people or we have a hard time with in other people the things that we aren't okay with within ourselves.
Kasey (06:40)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Emily (07:04)
When I realize that, I also can go, oh, I at times, I'm sure I've been that person who was hurtful to someone else. And I bet there have been some people who were pretty angry with me because I said something or did something that hurt someone they loved.
Kasey (07:12)
Mm-hmm.
Right, right. So it's like the protector in you that gets activated.
Emily (07:27)
Mm-hmm.
Kasey (07:27)
is really wanting to protect some part of you.
probably the part that hurts, that's been hurtful, right? It's like the old saying goes, hurt people, hurt people. And then there's an addendum to that saying, healed people help hurt people to heal.
Emily (07:39)
Yes.
Mm-hmm.
Kasey (07:48)
And so this first agreement, I think, is an invitation for that. Hold yourself with the same sort of loving kindness that you wish to be held by others and vice versa. And this is why we spoke at the top about how this book is an invitation to a life practice for the human experience.
Emily (08:11)
Right, exactly.
Kasey (08:12)
You read it and it invites you to give it consideration every single day. And to be more intentional and conscious with how you're holding yourself and how you're holding each other. So agreement number one is to be impeccable with your word.
Emily (08:28)
Yes. One other thing about agreement one is that our word, you know, it starts with ourselves, the way that we talk to ourselves. And we don't always realize that the way that we're talking in our head about the world is this consistent pattern that we start to believe. And so it could be, for example,
you know, in a negative way, it could be, I'm driving down the road, there's someone who's like really aggressive and driving, and I have this automatic, like what's their problem? And then being able to shift it and go, maybe that person has something big or hard happening in their life, and they need to get it be on their way. And wishing them well as they go, or.
Kasey (09:00)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Emily (09:15)
I think that we live in such a fast paced world that we want things now and we want it, we want it done. We want it right. And so it could be in the grocery store while you're in line and you're annoyed. You know, the person in front of you is not moving quick enough or the cashier is not moving quick enough. And those little moments of like the talk in our head to shift that and go, it's okay. If it takes me two more minutes, it will be okay. They're getting their stuff done. They're not in my way. I'm not in their way. We're all just here trying to.
Kasey (09:27)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Emily (09:45)
to live. Yeah.
Kasey (09:46)
Yeah. To live and interact and be in connection and in community with one another. It's interesting to hear you describe everything that you just said because it's sort of, it takes me to this place that wonders about like self and other and how we interact and it's
There's a sound of selfishness that comes from the perspective of, can the people in the line in front of me move a little faster? Can the cars on the road get out of my way? Can the, you know, whatever it is that's annoying us by being surrounded by other, um, it's like what, what might we need to think instead to return to a place that gives some unconditional positive regard and live as a community where we need each other.
We don't want to be the only person on the road or in the grocery store line or in the world. We wouldn't survive. Social connection is part of human connection and we're neurobiologically hardwired for connection with each other. And so it's like moving beyond tolerating one another to actually wanting and longing for each other to be in the same space as we are.
Emily (10:47)
Exactly.
And that comes with a sense of curiosity because tolerance is like, okay, fine, you're here, I'm here.
Kasey (11:13)
Mm-hmm.
Emily (11:18)
Like when you walk into any situation with a sense of curiosity back to the grocery store, it might be like, oh, like, look at how, you know, that person is like getting all of their groceries and lining them up and, you know, just like watching the way they move and honoring that they're just another human being and you can be curious about them in a completely innocent way.
Kasey (11:35)
Yeah.
Exactly, exactly. Curiosity with its volume turned up, I think is wonderment. And so I like to think these thoughts like, I wonder what might be happening for that person. You know, maybe the who I just thought was an asshole who cut me off on the road because he needs to go way too fast. I wonder if he just really needs to poop. So he's driving as fast as he can to get to a bathroom. You know, and who can't relate to what that's like.
Emily (12:05)
Yeah.
Kasey (12:13)
when that needs to happen and you're stuck in traffic and you got to get somewhere right now, right? And so we are more alike than we are different. And there's grace, there's grace and wonderment for that, that can, I think, help us all want to lean more into connection instead of away from. So what a great lesson agreement number one is.
Emily (12:13)
I know.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Agreement number two. Let's do it.
Kasey (12:37)
All right, shall we move on to agreement number two? Agreement number two is the hardest one for me. And it says, never ever to take anything personally. Because according to Toltec wisdom and Don Miguel Ruiz, nothing that anyone who is not you ever says or does to you or about you is about you. And isn't that the truth?
Aren't we most of the time in our minds thinking more about ourselves than we are about anyone else? And yet so often when anyone else does or says something about me, boy does it take a moment of pause and some breathing to go, wait, I don't have to make this mine. This doesn't need to belong to me. I have a choice.
Emily (13:12)
Absolutely.
Kasey (13:31)
that I could totally not personalize what's happening and not give my power away to what's being said about me.
What are your thoughts about this one? Agreement number two, never to take anything personally.
Emily (13:45)
Everyone has opinions, including us. And when we have an opinion about someone else, it really isn't about them. It's about our own experience in the world and the paradigm that we have, that we live by. And so it's like we put on our glasses with our particular lens and we see the world through that lens and we forget that people have a totally different perspective.
Kasey (13:49)
Mm-hmm.
Emily (14:15)
and different lens that they're looking through. And so I think that when I can shift that and think I would never want anyone to take anything I did personally, I realize I also can't take it personally. We all have moments where we just don't show up in the best way and it can feel personal to someone, but.
Kasey (14:30)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Emily (14:37)
It's very rarely intentional and about them.
Kasey (14:42)
Yeah, yeah. Well, and it's like there's something for me here about what you said about agreement. Number one, when you have had moments where you've maybe reacted to someone more harshly or from anger or something and you wish you hadn't. And I too have done this where I'll lay in bed at night and just for hours, I will recover some conversation that I had. And it can be from years and years and years ago.
where I said or did something that I'm not proud of, the way that I said or did it, or that it hurt someone's feelings. And I can hold myself on a hook for that, for years later, that's like, I feel bad still, for hurting that person's feelings, you know, in fourth grade, or whatever it was. It could have been 40 years ago. And so this one works towards self too, right? And so it's like, what?
What is that mechanism? Speak about that, that makes it so hard for things to not be personalized.
Emily (15:45)
Right. You know, I studied abroad when I was in college and there were a handful of people that I became really good friends with. And after coming home, some of the people I got together with and was really excited about it. And then there was one friend who suddenly stopped taking my phone calls. She wouldn't respond to a text from me or an email or phone call and...
I was really hurt. I was so confused, but also in my mind going, what did I do? What did I, did I say something or do something that made her not want to be friends with me? And for years, I thought about it. I mean, still even saying it to you, I'm like, what? I have no idea what happened. And this is, you know, over 20 years ago, the last time I talked to her.
And I still wonder what did I do? And yet I have no idea what was happening in her life. And it may have had something to do with something I did, but if she didn't tell me, I don't know. And it may not have. It may have just been that her life, she had circumstances that had nothing to do with me. And yet here I am 20 years later taking it personally. Yeah.
Kasey (17:00)
Yeah, yeah. And why is that, do you think?
Emily (17:04)
Well, we think that we are more responsible than we are for the world.
We think that we can control everything and take responsibility for everything. There is the internal locus of control and the external locus of control and the idea that if we have an internal locus of control, we are in control of our destiny. I'm responsible for myself. If something good happens, I praise myself. If something bad happens, I say, okay, what did I do to create this? And the external locus of control
The world is doing whatever it's going to do. And if something good happens, well, I don't know, that has nothing to do with me. And if something bad happens, look, I'm the victim and look what happened to me. Not that 100% of internal or external is good or bad because there are times when having an internal locus of control is good overall. But if I think I can control how other people feel about me.
and how the outcomes are going to be for other people and I'm taking everything personally, that's me trying to control everything that is not mine to control. So you need to like kind of put it out there a little bit. Like there are things that I have no idea about.
Kasey (18:13)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. Yeah. What I'm hearing you describe that I think is brilliant in this is how everything is in a polarity or in a paradox, right? Self and other, control and I don't know what would be on the other side of that one, surrender. Right? It's finding your way into the middle.
of all of it so that you are responsible for your impact while not over-owning what other people think, right? Because it's a slippery slope, what you're talking about. The need for controlling what other people think of you can quickly slide you into manipulation and take you out of your own authenticity.
Emily (18:56)
Right.
Kasey (19:11)
Like if really the goalpost for you is worry about what other people will think, then you're going to be behaving based on what you think other people think, which has very little actual data in it. Usually, um, there's just a lot of stories being made up in that space. Let's put it that way. And it moves you away from what's true for you. And so that, thank you.
for wrapping that context around that, because for me, that is what is so powerful about this agreement, is it puts you, me, right in the choice seat for what do I wanna give my power to? Whose opinions do I care about? What kind of person do I know I wanna be? And when I stop taking personal...
what everybody else is thinking about me or the stories I'm making up about what they're thinking about me, then what do I act from? Like what's here for me instead of that? Well then for me it's meant living and loving and leading in alignment with my values. What I know the true forms of me are when they take shape in my behavior. And
I've discovered, for those of you that are only listening and not seeing us with video today I'm doing a lot of moving with my hands. And it's because this line of conversation that we're having it really is in motion. It's not a static way of being. It's noticing yourself in relationship with others and moving yourself around and adjusting ever so slightly so that you're staying tethered.
to what you know matters most to you. And from there, you can release that personalization of what is everybody else thinking about me. Well, I just, my life has started to shape up into like chapters of before and an after. And so I'm gonna reference this before way of being when I was a person like many humans who took everything personally.
And it's just such a painful way to navigate the world. It to me felt like walking around almost like a burden victim with raw wounds hanging out and just allowing anybody to poke their fingers into those wounds at any time. And then sitting and knowing I was gonna suffer the pain of it until I met a leader of mine.
and interestingly in a leadership program where I was compelled to read this book, The Four Agreements, and having a conversation with him at one point about some feedback I had received following a failure, a professional failure opportunity. And I remember sharing with him this feedback that I got and he says to me, so how much power do you want to give that feedback?
Emily (22:17)
Wow.
Kasey (22:18)
And that just right. Wow. Right. It landed for me as like the first time I had been invited to even think about the fact that I get to be a choice. About how much power I want to give to what another person is saying to me or about me. And that to me is what this agreement is all about.
Emily (22:42)
Yeah, I saw a video that is the perfect visual of what you're describing. It's a woman and she's standing with two tall glass, like vases, one on the right and one on the left. And for every compliment, like there are all these like nice affirming phrases and words that are being said about her. Like she is kind, she is consistent, she is dependable, she shows up,
Kasey (22:53)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Emily (23:09)
one of the containers is full of M&Ms, like colorful. And right as that happens, she was really rude to me, gets dropped in the other one. And one other thing, you know, it was like, you know, she forgot about her child's assignment for school. What a bad mom gets dropped in. And they're the two in one container and a whole bunch of nice ones in the other one. And all she can focus on are the two bad things. And we tend to do that that...
Kasey (23:19)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Emily (23:38)
we hear something negative. We have a million good things about us and we hear something negative and it's all we can hear, it's all we can focus on.
Kasey (23:47)
Exactly. And then for me, that takes my inside voices, my mind to that down place also. So here we are, the two brown M&Ms in her glass cylinder that say to like quote bad things or negative things, small fails, mistakes, how human of her that she had in her life. And it can take you away from agreement number one.
which is to be impeccable with your word. It's like immediately that negativity feeds some story I have going in my head that I am bad or wrong in some way. And then suddenly whatever you appreciate appreciates, you get more bad and wrong. So these two agreements to be impeccable with your word and to never take anything personally, they really are threaded together with each other.
Emily (24:42)
Yeah.
Kasey (24:44)
And what we would love for our listeners to take away from this is that gets to be a choice.
It's a choice what versions of yourself you want to listen to inside yourself and outside yourself. And it's also a choice how much power you want to give to either one. And I, in my opinion, this goes for feedback that's positive or negative. Because you're also there's a choice to make for all of those wonderful things when someone says you're so kind.
You're so intelligent. You're so smart. You're such a great mom. That gets to be a choice too. Are those things the truth about me? And how do I know? Yeah.
Emily (25:20)
Yeah.
Yeah, how have I proven that to myself? There is the muscle that you work with, knowing who you are, knowing when you have not done what you believe you should do, that maybe you haven't been impeccable with your word, or you did something that...
Kasey (25:31)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Emily (25:45)
you normally wouldn't be okay with and also honoring that we get to be celebrated. We get to celebrate just the little things in life. Like I got up this morning and I honored myself by having a warm cup of coffee and just sitting in silence. Like we get to celebrate the big and the small.
Kasey (25:51)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. And know that all of everything that we're saying is part of being human. And so to hold ourselves and each other with a whole bunch more grace and positive regard, I think, is a big part of the point of this conversation. Which takes us right over to agreement number three, which Don Miguel invites us to stop.
Emily (26:09)
Right.
Kasey (26:27)
making assumptions. This is a hard one. Because as human beings, we are assumption-making machines, right? Our brains love to make up stories. If we don't have any context already inside our own mind for what's happening in front of us, in the absence of information and in the space of uncertainty, our brains will make up a story because it wants to know.
Where do I put this piece of information? How can I make it fit with the other pieces of information that live inside of me? And we also know that this sort of assumption making is the number one thing that disrupts and gets in the way of our having intimacy in relationship. Said another way, the stories I'm making up about you.
are what is getting in the way of my being meaningfully connected with you.
So how do we stop? Why is it hard to not make assumptions? And how do we engage in this practice? What to do instead?
Emily (27:34)
Right? Yeah. I think that part of making assumptions is that we, we want to understand the world. We want to understand other people. We want to understand what we're doing in it. And so we, like you were saying, we create that story. We start to create a story about whatever is happening and that story becomes our truth because the story is on a record in our brain. Like, yep, that's the story. That's the story. We hear it over and over.
Kasey (27:36)
Yeah.
Emily (28:02)
a belief and we assume that we're right. I think, no, I believe, not, I don't think, I believe that the best way to combat making assumptions is asking questions, being curious, knowing that the world often lives in a very black and white way. Like, well, I'm right.
Kasey (28:03)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Emily (28:28)
and you're wrong and you're, I'm right and you're wrong. And, you know, people who are like, you know, on both sides making assumptions, but there's a whole lot of gray area in the middle.
Kasey (28:38)
Yeah, yeah. I was working last week with a couple at Tribe in our therapy practice and I heard myself say to one half of the couple, would you rather be right or in relationship?
And I feel like that affirms this point that you're making. It's like, guys, the future belongs to the curious. What would it take for us all to get with the practice of being more a learner than a knower?
Emily (29:00)
Yeah.
Kasey (29:08)
so that instead of playing off of the stories I've made up about you, I can get into getting curious with you, like not assuming that I know who you are and what you think and how you feel and how you operate. That instead I embrace the idea that all of us as human beings are evolving all of the time. We're changing every single day, every minute of the day. I am not the same today
If you get into the danger zone of believing that the person across from you is the same today as they were yesterday, then you stop wanting to learn them. And so remembering that we are always changing and there is always learning and staying curious and in wonderment. So it's like, who friend is here with me today? Let me not assume that I know who you are today because I knew you yesterday.
What are your thoughts about that today? How are you feeling today? What's here for you now?
And in order to do that, Don Miguel, you're so wise. Of course, these are all threaded back into each other, right? Because in order to stay learner with you and in my relationship of curiosity with you, I have to not be taking anything personally. And I have to stay impeccable with my word, with both what I'm thinking about myself and you, right? That it's because I think all of this requires
Emily (30:16)
Yeah.
Right.
Kasey (30:38)
um, I shouldn't say requires, it nudges us to start getting comfortable being in the discomfort of uncertainty.
Emily (30:46)
Yeah.
Kasey (30:47)
Right? To be OK with asking questions when you might not know the answer. To be OK with being surprised by the people you've been in relationship with for all of these years. Like letting them surprise you with who's here and in front of you now. It requires a certain letting go of knowing. Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Emily (31:07)
I think it's also...
Yeah, yes, letting go of the knowing. You said asking questions when you don't know the answer. And I think the other, the flip side of that coin is asking questions even when you think you know the answer.
Kasey (31:24)
Mm-hmm still being curious even then too. Yes
Emily (31:28)
Yes, like I think I know the answer and I think I'm right. However, what if I'm not right? What if there is more to the story to paint the picture and make it more colorful? So I'm going to ask you the question. I'm going to be open to the response, which is a really, really hard thing to do. I think, you know, in long-term relationships, that it's like with the couple you were working with, it's so easy to go,
Kasey (31:46)
Yeah.
Emily (31:56)
I already know what your response is going to be. I don't even want to hear it. I get myself in trouble with that. There are times where I'm like, I don't even ask because I think I know. And we're not done learning. We're never done learning about ourselves. So how can we be done learning about our partner?
Kasey (31:58)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, yeah, and our friends and our parents and our siblings and all of the relationships that we're in.
Emily (32:16)
Yeah.
and people in our community. We don't know anything, everything about them or the world.
Kasey (32:22)
Yes!
What we think we know, I would articulate, is based in the assumptions that we've made. And so back to Don Miguel and the Toltec wisdom, stop it. Know that you are making up stories about people based on small pieces of information, that you really truly have no idea what all of life has been like for them.
Emily (32:32)
Mm-hmm.
Right, yeah.
Kasey (32:53)
and that has brought them to this moment, and that we can never know how we are all evolving, but we do know for sure that we are all always evolving. And so it really is the truth that even if you've been married for 25 years or best friends for 45 years, or you meet a stranger on the street, no matter who it is, you don't know.
Emily (33:05)
Right.
Kasey (33:18)
What the story is that has brought this person to this moment in the shape and form that they are in You can only learn that by getting curious With their experience of it to learn how it shaped up inside of them It's it's interesting back to that same couple. There was another moment in session where I remember saying To one side of the partnership. Are you willing?
to make learning how she's feeling right now matter more than what you're thinking about her.
And that's what I think is the invitation of this one, this agreement. Not making assumptions means being willing to let the person you're in relationship with, their experience of whatever it is you're talking about needs to matter more to you for a single moment, to be willing to turn the volume all the way down on the stories you're making up about it.
in order to come from a place of genuine curiosity and wonderment to say just tell me what it's like for you. I want to know. I want you and your experience of this moment to matter more than what I've got firing off in my own mind about it.
Emily (34:35)
you know, it's popping up for me is I'm wondering, you know, we're talking about the people who you do care about in your life and using, using this agreement as you think about them. What happens when there is someone who we are connected to or we don't particularly like them, but we will not be done with them. You know, it could be a family member. It could be, uh,
Kasey (34:41)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Emily (35:03)
a boss at work, a coworker, some, you know, there could be times where you could end that relationship, but what if you have to continue to see this person or have interactions with them and you just are like, I don't think you're a good person because your pattern has shown me that you don't really care or you're going to do mean or hurtful things. And so I just like to explore that.
Kasey (35:25)
Mm-hmm.
Emily (35:31)
What does that look like? Yeah.
Kasey (35:31)
Mm-hmm. Within the context of agreement number three and not making a sentence? Well, I mean, this is just my answer, right? I don't know the truth for everyone. I think it probably depends on the person and the relationship. And I think there's still opportunity to not assume. Because what you can get on the other side of not assuming and then going instead to genuine curiosity is more actual data.
Emily (35:37)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Kasey (35:59)
And so what you might find from that data that you gather is, yeah, it's true. I really don't like you very much. Like, right? The data are in. And it turns out that I was leaning in a way that's kind of right for me around this. And then I might go to, so what has me staying in this relationship?
when I neither like nor respect nor feel like what I'm receiving from it is good for me or my system. You know, I may ask myself like, so why am I still in this? Perhaps is there a boundary needed here? And or on the other side, from a place of genuine curiosity, you may get some new data. You might learn something new. You may give that person a chance to have changed or evolved. And where you came to the conversation thinking I really don't like you,
Emily (36:36)
Mm-hmm.
Kasey (36:45)
You may learn something new that's like, oh, here's an opportunity for us to connect. I just heard something that, you know, makes me want to know more or to have more time with you. What do you think about that? How does it land? I feel like you're asking this maybe with someone specific in mind, but I won't make you name them.
Emily (36:51)
Right.
I do like that.
Oh, it's just curiosity. I think that the other part of that is that we can say, is this a story I'm telling myself? Or is this truth? Is this the ultimate truth about who this person is? Or maybe they were hurt. Maybe they're the hurt person who doesn't know how to show up and how to be different.
Kasey (37:12)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Emily (37:26)
and it can help us to depersonalize Agreement Two not take personally their behavior in order to not assume about them because their behavior is truly about how they feel about themselves. And however we feel about ourselves is reflected into the world. And so we see the world as we see ourselves and then we show the world how we see ourselves. So yeah.
Kasey (37:29)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah. We see out there what we believe in here. Yeah. And there may be an opportunity in the relationship with this hypothetical person that we're discussing for boundaries. And it also can go back to agreement number two, which is they are who they are. And that doesn't have to mean anything about you.
Emily (37:59)
Great.
Kasey (38:17)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Nice. Lovely, right? Yeah. All right. So agreement number four. And I really do love this one. It is simply stated, always do your best.
Emily (38:20)
That's good. Yeah.
Mm hmm.
Kasey (38:33)
What does that, how does that land for you or what does that bring up for you as you hear those words?
Emily (38:37)
Can I tell you a little story about that? Right, so there was a huge forest fire and all of the animals in the forest needed to get out or they would be taken by the forest fire. So you see the bear and the elephant and the wolf and the owl and the bunnies, you know, they're all getting out of the forest and they're all looking at the fire in disbelief and not knowing what to do.
Kasey (38:40)
See ya!
Emily (39:03)
and they look up and up above there are birds flying over and the birds are flying frantically. They don't know what to do. And suddenly there's a little hummingbird and the hummingbird flies to a stream nearby and it gets one tiny drop of water and it flies back to the fire and puts it on the fire.
back to the stream to get the tiny drop of water and back and forth it goes. And as it's doing this, the animals are going, this is too big, it's too hot, I'm only one being, what can I do about this? There's nothing I can do, there's nothing I can do. And finally, the bear looks up at the hummingbird and says, what are you doing? And the hummingbird says, I'm doing the best I can to help.
And that's a Quechua saying, Quechua people in Peru, that's one of their stories that they tell about, we can all do our best in our little tiny way to make a difference in the world. We're capable of making a difference, even if it's one tiny drop, we're one tiny hummingbird with a tiny drop.
Kasey (40:05)
I love that story. Reminds me of the starfish poem.
Emily (40:10)
Oh, what's that?
Kasey (40:11)
You remember the starfish poem from social work where the man walks up to the boy on the beach and the boy is standing amidst, there are like hundreds of thousands of starfish that have swum in from the ocean and gotten stuck on the beach. So the boy's picking up the starfish and throwing them back into the beach or into the water. And the man approaches him and says, what are you doing? And he says, these starfish need to get back into the water, they won't survive.
Emily (40:14)
I might after you say it.
Kasey (40:40)
And the man says, there are hundreds of thousands of starfish all over the beach. You'll never make a difference. And the boy bends down and picks up another starfish and tosses it back into the water and says, I made a difference to that one. I love that. I love the hummingbird dropping its water droplets onto the fire. Always do your best.
Emily (40:52)
Right? Yeah.
Kasey (41:01)
Do you believe that people are always doing their best?
Emily (41:04)
I think that for each of us, whatever is doing our best changes moment to moment or day to day depending on a lot of factors. I mean, when I am doing my best, it's not the same as someone who maybe doesn't have a roof over their head or doesn't know where they're going to eat dinner. Their best is going to be totally different than mine.
My best is also different than someone who is on vacation today and has their toes in the sand and a meal that's getting delivered to them. You know, we get to show up and do our best, but I do think whether intentionally or not, we are all doing the best we can in any moment.
Kasey (41:46)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, for me this, yeah, for me this kind of goes back to what I said a minute ago about how we can never know the whole truth of the story that brought any person to any moment. Because from that perspective, you know, the way we are all made and the way we are all wired and what we all have experienced in life is different for each of us.
Emily (41:49)
What do you think?
Kasey (42:12)
to me means that whatever our best is, is also different for each of us. And I do generally believe that all of us are always doing whatever that is. I think it's my belief that as human beings, we are intrinsically wired to be our best all of the time.
And yeah, sometimes my best means I'm too tired to get out of bed today. My best today was to give myself permission for more rest. Um, and sometimes my best means I'm ready to work really, really hard at something for the sake of something bigger than me. Um, and so I, I think that this, this too, weaves back into all of the other agreements.
about not making assumptions, not taking things personally, and remaining impeccable with our words, both thoughts and spoken. Anything to me, I guess the way that I'm shaping this in my mind is anything that wants to go to, oh, so I or someone else wasn't doing our best, feels like a judgment for which I have no data.
to prove its truth. And the bottom line here is, I feel better when I believe that everyone is doing the best that they can.
Emily (43:39)
that is part of my choice. I guess it is the assumption I choose, even though don't make assumptions, is that I choose to believe that people in the world are inherently good and that they're doing the best they can. I don't naturally believe that people want to hurt others or do things that make the world worse. I think that people show up in the way that they know.
Kasey (43:52)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Mm-mm.
No.
Right, yeah. I remember one time a marriage counselor of mine who was treating my marriage saying to me, the one thing I know for sure is that there are two people who are both 100% responsible for the relationship you are in. And then he goes, so how are you being your best?
And that for me was like a punch in the gut because I, that's what I think this agreement is really about. This always do your best. Doing your best means really asking yourself more than it is about judging others. Am I bringing my best to this moment? Whatever this moment is that I'm in.
And in the context of my marriage, it was because I was so busy, you know, blaming and criticizing my partner for the lack of fulfillment or satisfaction in our relationship that I hadn't turned the spotlight back towards, am I being and doing my best and giving this everything that I've got?
So for me, I guess this one agreement number four about always doing your best, I think it's really personal. And for me, it's directed more at self than it is outwardly at other.
Emily (45:32)
Great. Yeah.
Kasey (45:33)
Mm-hmm.
Emily (45:34)
I think questioning, it just, as you were saying that, I'm thinking, when do I show up as my very best? And particularly with my family, I always think about my husband and my kids. Am I showing up as my best? And the thing that I do that I know takes away from me being my best is picking up my phone and getting into social media or, you know, like starting to look at something and getting drawn into it.
I leave the room. I physically am there, but I'm mentally somewhere else. And I have to bring myself back and go, am I my best when I'm doing that? Am I the best wife or mom if I'm not there and they're in front of me?
Kasey (46:06)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah. And then to that, if we were having this conversation, I'd say, well, maybe that was your best for yourself. You know, in that moment, because there are times when we need to tune out, right? Just like have an escape from inside our own minds, perhaps, especially for us as therapists. There are days when I see so many clients that I come home and my heart and my head and my body are all full
Emily (46:25)
Hmm.
Right.
Kasey (46:46)
of other people's stuff, right? And I do need that space and sometimes good or bad, judge it if you want to. We turn to our phones to find our way out, right? And it can be kind of a clearing to just not have to think, to get to do some of the mindless scroll and red dot erasing, right? At the end of a day. I think the lesson in it is to allow those moments to be for recovery.
Emily (47:08)
Right. Yeah.
Kasey (47:16)
and not necessarily to be a way of life, right? Especially when we wanna connect with our partners and our children and our friends and our family. And I just, yeah, yeah.
Emily (47:24)
Yeah, that is, I have to name it when it's that moment. Like I'm gonna go to the room, I'm gonna lay on the bed, and I'll be back in 10 minutes. And whether I lay there silently or I lay there and look at my phone, I can name it and go, all right, now I'm done and come back.
Kasey (47:32)
Mm-hmm.
Right.
Yeah, yeah. And though the, I love this line of question, this conversation though, because then it's like, and then when I come back, I'm gonna come back as my best, fully present and ready to connect, phones down, you know? Yeah, yeah.
Emily (47:50)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah. You know what happens when I actually do that is I come back and I'm more grateful. I'm grateful that they're there. I mean, just two or three weeks ago, I came home and the kids and I had been out the entire day doing stuff and I was kind of like sensory overload. I just like need to be alone for a few minutes after being out in the world the entire day and my husband was making dinner and
Kasey (48:03)
Exactly.
Mm-hmm.
Emily (48:25)
I said that I was like, I'm going to go to the room for 10 minutes and I'll be back. And I left my phone on the charger in the room. I came back and I was so grateful that he was there making dinner. And the four of us sat down and we had dinner together and I was present and I was grateful for the conversations and it changes everything when you name it and you're intentional about it. As long as like you said, it's not a way of life.
Kasey (48:47)
Yes. Right. Exactly. So it was your best. Yeah. And again, it's back to the movement and the motion and letting yourself design with yourself and your others one now moment at a time. That is what life is made of, yeah? So this was so fun.
Emily (48:52)
Yes. Yeah.
Yes.
Yeah.
Kasey (49:13)
Today we got to review Don Miguel Ruiz's book, The Four Agreements. We highly recommend that everyone who's listening read it and beyond reading it, engage with us in the practice of living it in your daily life. And as you're navigating this tricky little thing called the human experience.
Emily (49:33)
Yes, pick one of the agreements and just allow yourself to be aware of it and see how you can have that agreement be a part of your life.
Kasey (49:45)
Yeah. Start with just noticing how you're doing with that agreement currently. Take one and decide, like, maybe for February, you want to practice being impeccable with your word. Try not judging what you notice, but just notice it. How many times a day do your thoughts get taken away down like a lane of negativity?
about yourself or someone else. And if you could even catch yourself in one of those moments to pull it back and turn it into something positive, to think a thought that's loving about yourself or someone else first or instead. I love that invitation. I hope our listeners will come along for this journey into this new life practice as it is, according to Don Miguel Ruiz and the four agreements. I in fact have the number four.
tattooed on my wrist to remind me as a structure that I carry with me in my day-to-day life to remind me of these These four agreements and to practice them in my daily life. It really has Made my life better and made my relationship stronger To live into them so we invite you to do the same and thanks for coming along today for this conversation
Emily (51:03)
Yes. And we would love to hear from you. We wanna hear if you do choose an agreement that you're going to focus on or any of this has resonated with you, email us Soulstirredpodcast at gmail.com. We also would love to hear anything that you wanna know more about, any topics you wanna hear about, email us, we wanna hear from you.
Kasey (51:27)
We would love to connect. It is what we are here for, to cause connection and stir souls. Thanks for being with us.
Emily (51:35)
Bye everyone.
Emily Garcia (51:43)
Thanks so much for joining us on this episode of SoulStirred, Stories of Growth and the Human Experience. We hope our stories have touched your heart and sparked reflections in your own journey.
Therapist, we are not your therapist and this podcast is not a substitute for therapy. If you find yourself in need of professional support, please don't hesitate to seek it. Your well-being is important and there are professionals out there who are ready to help. We encourage you to carry the spirit of growth and connection with you. Life is a continuous journey and we're honored to be part of yours. Stay tuned for more captivating stories in the episodes to come.
Until then, take care of yourselves and each other.