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Fearless Creativity, T-Rex Handbags, & AI Innovation
How do you convince a client to make a handbag out of lab-grown T-Rex DNA? And more importantly, how do you even come up with the idea in the first place?
In this episode of Why Didn't I Think of That?, hosts Rick Brown, Jeremy Lens, and Tim Voet sit down with a true industry visionary: Bas Korsten, Global Chief Creative Officer of Innovation and EMEA CCO at VML. Bas has built a legendary career by turning the impossible into reality. From using AI to paint The Next Rembrandt to creating the viral Mammoth Meatball, his work consistently blurs the lines between technology, biology, and world-class storytelling.
Now, Bas is making global headlines again with his newest project: the world's first lab-grown T-Rex leather handbag – a project that just took home four Lions at Cannes. Bas takes us inside his creative process to explain the art of the impossible idea, why the future of innovation might just be prehistoric, and how to sell wildly ambitious concepts to the most skeptical clients.
Later in the episode, the hosts dive into a roundtable discussion about the evolving role of AI in the agency world, exploring the realities of voice cloning and how generative AI is empowering the next generation of creative talent.
In this episode, we cover:
- The T-Rex Handbag: The incredible science behind using fossilized T-Rex collagen to grow dinosaur leather in a lab.
- The AI Sparring Partner: How Bas uses custom AI agents (like VML's "Creative Brain") to push ideas further and inspire better creative work.
- The Art of the Pitch: Why courage is a team sport, and the exact mindset and prototyping strategies you need to confidently sell massive ideas.
- Navigating AI Ethics: Thoughtfully approaching the boundaries of AI voice cloning and understanding how agencies can safely integrate this technology.
- The New Junior Portfolio: How young, digital-native creatives and developers are utilizing AI tools like "vibe coding" to rapidly build fully functional prototypes and elevate their portfolios.
Whether you are a creative looking to thrive in the AI revolution, an account director selling brave work, or a developer adapting to new tools, this episode is an absolute masterclass in fearless creativity.
Creators and Guests
What is Why Didn't I Think of That??
"Why didn't I think of That?" is brought to you by the Innovation Team at VML Canada. Join us for a relaxed, round-table chat where we break down the latest in innovation – from the complex world of tech to surprisingly simple, yet brilliant, creative initiatives. We'll cover news, offer deep dives, and share fascinating interviews, all through a distinctly Canadian lens. Whether you're a fellow innovator or just keen to learn about the exciting developments shaping our nation, this podcast is your go-to source for understanding what's new and next in Canada.
Bas: We're creatives. We can think our way out of any situation.
Rick: Welcome to Why Didn't I Think of That? I'm Rick Brown, and with me are Jeremy Lens and Tim Voet. Today we're joined by a true visionary. Bas Korsten is the Global Chief Creative Officer of Innovation and the EMEA CCO at VML. Bas has built a career out of blurring the lines between mad science, AI, and storytelling. He has brought the world incredible cultural moments like The Next Rembrandt, which used AI 10 years ago to 3D print a brand-new Rembrandt masterpiece, and the Mammoth Meatball, and so many more. These campaigns go beyond advertising. His work has earned recognition at the highest levels in the ad world, and they're also covered in science journals. Not many campaigns can do that. In today's episode, we get a look inside his creative process. We discuss how he uses AI as a sparring partner to help shape ideas, and what it takes to pitch wildly innovative concepts to clients. His latest project has been making headlines all over the world. Welcome to the show, Bas. Can we start with the T-Rex leather handbag?
Bas: Yeah. So in 2023, I launched a project for a company called Vow, Australian cultured meat company. It's called the Mammoth Meatball, and basically what it did was it changed people's perspective on, on cultured meat and lab-grown meat, basically. That was the intention. And the reason why I wanted to do that was because if you look at how food is being produced, how meat is being produced, that's not sustainable. We, we, we need two planets in 2050 to feed all the people because despite all of the meat alternatives and, and vegans, there's... The, the numbers of our meat consumption are still growing. So we need a, an alternative that is as good as regular meat.
Jeremy: And clearly incremental improvements like Beyond Meat type products weren't cutting through.
Bas: So I needed to, to come up with something that, that opened people's eyes to this new way of producing, meat that was more sustainable, animal cruelty-free, and just better. But, but if I would've launched a, a chicken meatball, I don't think anyone would've necessarily noticed, so that's why I went back in time to, to mammoths. And, and so the, the reason why... I'll come to the T-Rex handbag in a, in a minute. But the reason why I chose the mammoths was they lived like a million years ago, and that allowed us to actually still have DNA of mammoths that has been preserved.
Tim: When you say DNA's preserved, how does that actually work? Isn't DNA supposed to break down over time?
Bas: DNA disintegrates in two to three million years, and I've always been fascinated by T-Rexes, but so far the technology didn't allow me to do anything with T-Rexes just because of the lack of genetic information that's available to do anything with. So then there was a Scientific paper that was published in Nature, and Mary Schweitzer, who's a, a, a, a leading paleontologist who also advised Steven Spielberg on Jurassic Park, she wrote a paper together with some colleagues about fossilized collagen found in a T. rex bone that was found in Montana. That basically then allowed us to at least have something to work with. And I got in touch with my, my good friend, Professor Ernst Wolvetang, who's at the University of Queensland, but who also started a new company recently called The Organoid Company. And I, I spoke to him about it, and he said, "Well, it's not easy because the amount of information that we have is, is very little, and so we need to work with LPMs, large protein models, which are the protein equivalent of large language models that basically have laid out evolution of all the species and all the protein development within the species." So the, the team at The Organoid Company, customized a large protein model to be, to work with the information that we had. And then they had several genetic engineering techniques as well to get to a full-length protein. And so one- once we had that full-length protein, we could then insert that into carrier cells and grow them and see if they express the T. rex information more than... I don't know what's the right word, but at least s- significantly express T. rex collagen information, and they did. So And The Organoid Company in January of this year launched a scientific paper, or published a scientific paper with the findings of that, because that's, that was never done before. And then we basically handed over the cell with the T-Rex protein to the lab-grown leather company, and they then grew a lot of them, formed leather. And once we had the leather, we gave it to Enfin Levé, which is the tech fashion brand from Poland, and they created the bag. And so then on April 2nd, we launched it in Amsterdam in, ARTIS, in the ARTIS Zoo Museum, where they ha- had a model of the actual T-Rex that was found in Montana that we got the original information from. So the bag came home to its rightful owner in, in the ARTIS Zoo Museum in Amsterdam. And so, and then we got some PR.
Rick: That's amazing. How long did it take to grow the pieces of dinosaur skin?
Bas: So I think that took less than two months. So we just need to now scale up, because this was just enough material to create the bag, and then two, two basically samples that people can, could, could use to feel the actual structure of the leather. And, and so we created those in parallel. But, but now it's time to scale up and, and make more leather. And looking at the interest there is for this, I think, yeah, we won't have any issue finding the n- new owners of large T-Rex leather. I... What, what would be the name for that? swaths? Anyway, large T-Rex leather surfaces to create new things with and whatever that may be. Wristwatches, jackets, boots, wallets, leather upholstery.
Rick: I think what amazes me about all this is, you know, it feels less like you're talking to, you know, like a global creative director at an advertising agency. It feels more like we're talking to, you know, a c- you know, a scientist in a, in a lab who, who's building something brand new, and I think that's what innovation is all about.
Jeremy: I think that's what's, you know, pretty inspiring about this. How do you... I guess, how do you bring those worlds together of being a creative director and, you know, kind of this mad scientist?
Bas: Yeah. Adver- advertising's mad scientist. I've heard that a few times now this week. That might stick. So- I, I don't know. I'm, I'm just fascinated in the past in a way and how that can inform, how that can inform the future. So I, I did The Next Rembrandt in 2016, which was very much AI before AI knew it was called AI. That was also about what if he wouldn't have died, what would he have painted? And I think the Mammoth Meatball was a similar, exercise. And then I think the, the T. rex leather product is, was the most challenging and, and the, the most technologically in- innovative one just because of the, the, the, the little information we had to work with. And so we had to, to do all kinds of things to- To get to that full-length protein. But luckily, technology develops rather quickly and, and what wasn't possible three years ago is possible now. And so, and, and I'm running out of mythical creatures, so I, I need to come up with something new now.
Rick: How does your creative process shift when you're doing these wild proactive ideas versus tackling a, a more of a, a standard kind of client brief?
Bas: Well, o- other than in the executions, I mean, I, I, I'm not an artist, so I, I, I, I still need a problem to solve. And in that sense it's not different, it's just that the brief was never written, but it's out there in the world. And so if you, if you look at how lab-grown leather is struggling in the luxury space just because it's seen as a replica, as imitation, and it's sustainable and a- animal cruelty free, which is all great if you, if you look at things rationally, but when it comes to luxury, it's all emotional, and that's... People don't wanna necessarily be thinking about sustainability when they buy a $50,000 handbag, or at least that's what the numbers are showing, that people are not necessarily willing to, to give up the original for something that isn't, what they feel original or doesn't have history. I think the, the CEO of Cartier said, "We don't do lab-grown diamonds because they don't have a history." And so if you wanna elevate lab-grown materials, you need to come up with something that is unique and can only be done in the lab, but still has that appeal and that exclusivity, and I think this, this pro- project does that. And so all of a sudden lab-grown materials are, are not just replica or imitation, they're actually becoming inspiration and, and unique versus, "Oh, that's just cow leather,"
Rick: but then that's interesting. I wanna pivot to your broader philosophy on creative development. You've spoken recently about how the barrier to entry for creativity has completely vanished, and how modern tools have essentially enabled anybody to become a storyteller. Could you expand on that and what that means for the industry?
Bas: If you think about how creativity in a way is democratized by the, the platforms and creativity showing up in, in very interesting and different ways on these social platforms, that basically is what I'd meant when I said that now everyone's got the tools. Because with an iPhone, you can basically tell any story in a rather decent manner. And, and so, and people are getting well-versed in it as well from, from a young age. They're, they're learning how to tell the stories and edit the stories and, and so- That's definitely happening, and that's, I think, a good thing. There's also a lot of crap out there, but, and, and I think that's where our, our, our value lies is in making sure that we select those ideas that are that we feel are gonna hit in the right way and, and, and sway our, our target audience to do or think what we want them to. So I think, I think it's still a, a, a craft that we have that a lot of people don't. But you can definitely see that the, the floor has been raised by all of the technology, and that's available, and now with AI even more so. I still feel that it needs really good, good curation. That's not something that you, when you ... That's not something that you're born with necessarily. That's something that you develop, taste, creative, critical thinking. Those are skills that a lot of the creators on, on the platforms don't necessarily have. And so I, I still feel that there's a place for us, but it's clear that the world has opened up lots and lots of possibilities for everyone to be more creative and more storytellers than, than ever before.
Rick: So as agencies with AI increasingly doing more of what we do, where do we actually fit?
Bas: So I think having done The Next Rembrandt in 2016, I was fascinated with this idea of man versus machine and, and are they coming for the one thing that we all hold sacred, which is creativity. Over time, I've been shifting from the man versus machine to man and machine, and I think I'm working on something which is called Creative Brain, which is a tool that is a sparring partner for creatives, and it's, it's very high quality, it's very, It's coming up with really, really good ideas. It's basically proprietary thinking of the agency for the last hundred years worked into this sup- super agent. And, and so it's funny because it's creative problem-solving, so it can help you write a really good email as well. It's not, it's not just conceptual ideas per se, but, but I think that tool, is something that hopefully makes us better and it's, it- it's not just faster or more efficient, but also it allows you to get inspired by more things than, than we, we have in the world right now. So I think that's gonna help us become better creatives, and I think that's the fact that we are able to work with really smart people that can help us come up with those kind of tools. I think that's the, the value of being an organization like we are, where you've got really smart people that can help with tools that are better than other tools, and so therefore it'll always give us a competitive edge and give us a, a leg up to a, a creator that, that's using regular ChatGPT, for instance. Which he also, or she might get there as well, but I think because we have so much experience built up. And then the second part is I think, so, so it is about those tools, and then I think the longer term brand guardianship role, you can say, well, AI can do that to a certain extent. It can, it can flag things that are off-brand. But at the same time, thinking about the longer term vision of a brand Working with strategy and making sure that that... And then just been, I've just been working on Kit Kat quite a bit, and that, that's a, a brand idea that's been out there for 70 years, and it, it's, it's getting only more and more relevant with the world speeding up as it does. So I think being the brand guardians of that and making sure we stay the course, I think is an important role for us as agencies and us as creatives to make sure that those brands are, are safeguarded and, and, and kept on, on track. So I think There will be a different setup in a way. Things will change. How they will change, I don't know. I don't think it'll go as fast and as fundamental as maybe some people thought. But at the same time, I just embrace it, like I embrace the possibilities to do things like T-Rex handbags and, and all the things that weren't possible. So I'm not one that is looking at all this development from a negative perspective. I'm, I'm... We're creatives. We can think our way out of any situation, also this one.
Jeremy: I think that's... I mean, I think that's wonderful advice. I think, you know, and something that we also say quite a bit around the office, you know, we're, we're the artists in the room, you know. The AI is not the artist, so they don't know what looks good, so it's all about, you know, being the proper curators of the work. Just knowing that I know there's a lot of conversation now around AI kind of racing us all to mediocrity as it kind of spits out the same ideas over and over again. I guess tools like the Creative Brain would help kinda combat that a little bit.
Bas: I think, I think... And again, at some point things are very hard to, to, to keep to yourself. I think at some point things will come out and, and then the, the, the playing field will be leveled again. But at the same time, while we can, let's use the, the advantage of having a tool like that and, and making the most of it. So I don't know. I, I, I'm... Even though there is a lot of negativity in the industry at the moment, I, I, I find it hard to be negative with every s- every possibility, all the possibilities out there, to be honest.
Rick: We're 100% with you. Like, we are super excited about all the, the new tools and the new opportunities that they give us, and, and quite honestly, that's actually why we even built this innovation team. And I love that you called it a sparring partner because that's really, that's how we use it. You have to have the back and forth and work with it and push each other. It's, it's such an amazing tool if you use it correctly.
Tim: Yeah, we, we get both pushing both extremes, but my, my concern was the same to yours, Jer, is if you're not careful, AI will push you to the lowest common denominator, not the best. So it's challenging and understanding, and that's where it's like, "Hey, this is the lowest... Like, this is the least option. Like, what's the best one? How do we push it further?"
Bas: Yeah. Yeah, and it's, it's, it's interesting because it is... That's why I say sparring partner as well. It's, it's starting points. My only worry is if, if, if you grew up being handed these starting points, w- will you be able to get to the same level of critical thinking that we- Have gotten to in 20 or 25 years, getting slapped around and being criticized and, and... And so, so that's, that's the only worry I have with young people coming into the business. But at the same time, I don't know. Even, even that I think we'll find a way around.
Rick: Completely agree. I, I still love starting with my notebook just to, you know, think things through, but these custom AI tools have become an amazing layer on top of that, and we've been very lucky to beta test your team's Creativebrain. And it- what I love about that is how it shows its work. You can literally see it talking to a virtual art director and copywriter, and, and we'll even pair it with Jeremy's, Casey agent, which has all of the award-winning Cannes work in it. And just to see what happens and have them battle it out.
Bas: Yeah. That's cool.
Rick: It introduces brilliant wild cards into the process, but to your point, it's not gonna do the work for you. It's a conversation.
Bas: It's, it's a conversation, and I think what's- what I like about, and, and all kudos to, to Marcus Robson, who was the actual brains behind the Creativebrain. He, he created these agents like the anarchists and the more regular person. And so... And there's one that never has any money- ... so always has to come up with ideas that, that don't... we don't have any budget. So he's created this, like, interplay of agents, and they're challenging each other. And, and so to have this is a great tool to help us be more creative, as long as we just don't forget to- Because that, that was my worry about this falling into the wrong hands and, and people going like, "Oh, that's good." No, that isn't good. That's the beginning of something good maybe, but now y- you gotta s- you gotta basically tear it apart, rebuild it again. But I think, I think the thinking that has gone into it is, is really, really deep. You need to have a creative in the weeds of a tool like that because even in the way that ideas are, creators don't want to get one idea. They want to get a few so that they can go like, "Oh yeah, all right, I'll d- I'll use a bit of that, and then I'll make it my own." And so even in, in the way that the front end works, I think having a creative that knows what it takes. And then there's a lot of s- stuff like that also I found out in the process. So it wasn't like that we had the perfect idea from the get-go. But I think having creative people thinking about these kind of things, where usually you think of creative people like they get a brief and then they gotta solve a client's problem. No, actually, creativity within these tools, creativity within operating models, I think there is a lot of creativity that's left on the table, and I think creatives are, are gonna have to use their creativity on a much broader spectrum than, than they're doing at the moment. Which to a certain degree will, will happen automatically, and to a certain degree you have to push yourself into these spaces that are unknown to get to reinventing yourself and, and being the right creative for the new, the new era basically.
Rick: Your point about reinventing yourself naturally leads into a philosophy that you've shared before, the need to kill ideas that you love. And it seems like the more innovative the space, the easier it is to fall in love with a concept just because it's clever. Do you find yourself having to actively fight the emotional attachment when you're reviewing a board full of work?
Bas: Yeah. Although I think when I get presented ideas, I can get ... I can be real quick in assessing whether something has potential. It's just ... But that's the, the beauty of good ideas is like you can see 100 ideas and all of a sudden you go like, "Hold on," because it touches something within you. And so, I don't know. Killing ideas is more like which one is the one that's gonna- It's gonna hit hardest.
Rick: So how do you go from that to, I can sell this idea through?
Tim: 'Cause sometimes the idea is phenomenal, but getting to client to buy in or something, that's where it's like, we love the idea, the g- idea is great, but no client will sign off on that one.
Bas: For me, creativity is a lot about self-confidence. And so, and, and you, you notice it when, when you have an idea that, that was sold and that w- did well, you kind of walk a little straighter into the presentation next time. And I think that self-confidence is, is underrated in our industry. A T-Rex leather handbag, how many times do you think that people said yes to that when they could have easily said no? You need to convince people of the power of the idea for, for them to come on board. And, and I think that's... I- if you have that conviction, and sometimes you need to help yourself a bit building up that confidence and that conviction, but that is so powerful. Something I read some- somewhere, which is that courage is a team sport. And so it's hard to be courageous by yourself, but if you find people around you that you can share that with, then it's much easier.
Jeremy: Yeah, I think that's really good advice. I th- I know I, I had a creative director once say, you know, "Who is your per..." Or I asked him, like, "Who is your perfect partner?" And he said, "Partner with a great account person because he's gonna take you a lot further than anybody else." And it's true, you know, they help sell the work, and they help, you know, get that client trust. I'd say the same thing to a tech person, saying, "Hey, partner with a creative because they'll take your thing and make it sellable, make it pretty, make it understandable by somebody else."
Tim: coming from a very tech background, it's like you can build the coolest thing, but if you can't make it appealing to the everyday user, it'll be u- it will never be used.
Bas: Yeah. No, and exactly. That, that was my point with the lab, the, the lab people, the scientists that, that are They're in need of creativity and, and, and people that can help them tell stories.
Jeremy: When it c- 'cause we're all, you know, trying to sell more innovative work, I think, all the time, and I've, I've seen it go both ways where, you know, we'll have a presentation where we've taken that work really, really far before an initial presentation with a client, you know, to the point of even having a prototype or, you know, something they can visually see. And I've also seen it presented as just a, you know, a, a simple paragraph on a page with a, you know, a really nice headline. And I've seen it go both ways for both types of presentations. Is there a, you know, is there kind of a s- I, I don't wanna say a secret sauce, but if there's a, you know, is there kind of like a, a process that you find is, is helpful for selling innovative ideas to clients?
Bas: With innovation, it's oftentimes something that the client didn't ask for. I remember when we did Degree Inclusive, that was an idea on paper, and we invested, some of our own money to get to a, a working prototype, and that sold the client because they, they, they saw that it could work and that it, it wasn't just a thought on paper. So I think going a bit further than with a new regular concept is al- is important often to To help sell clients. And, and then to my earlier point about when I reach out to people to come on the journey of the, the T-Rex leather, it helps that I've got a mammoth meatball in my back pocket, giving them the, the right amount of confidence to, to believe that you can pull it off again.
Rick: You just mentioned how having that experience and those past successes really helps you navigate the room and sell in those massive ideas. But for the next generation coming up right now, the landscape has changed completely from when we started, with AI changing how everything works. How can young creatives actually learn the trade today and build that confidence?
Bas: Yeah, it's, it's, it's difficult. As I said just now, it's like, okay, how do you, how do you learn the trade when there are so many tools that can help you with it? So maybe we need to help young people a bit more by, by teaming them up with experienced people and learning the trade that way, than being left to their own device.
Rick: Absolutely. And it's funny because we're realizing just how much we can actually learn from them as well. We had some young people start recently, and Jeremy pulled me aside one day and he said, "You've got to watch them work. They don't work the way we do." They they use multiple screens and spaces and active desktops and all kinds of crazy stuff, but they're digital natives, so they think completely different than the way we do.
Bas: Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. No, and also the way they look at the world, the platforms they use, how they use their, their phones, I mean, I, I... The stuff that they can do with it and the way that they look at the world is, is definitely something that we need to learn from just because that's the way that they go through the world. So yeah, I'm- I'm always super excited. I've got four kids. Always looking over their shoulders, what they're looking at and which, which people they're following and yeah, super interesting.
Rick: Bas, thank you so much for being here. This was an absolute masterclass in fearless creativity. You constantly push the entire industry out of its comfort zone and, you know, it's just so inspiring to watch. We can't wait to see what you come up with next.
Bas: Thanks so much, guys, for, for your, for your questions, your time, and, yeah, let's, see when we can meet up in, in real life, which is so much better.
Rick: Love that.
Jeremy: Yeah, right?
Tim: Thank you, Bas. See you guys. Bye.
Rick: In this part of the episode, we're taking a look at the ethical guardrails of AI in the agency world. We get into the reality of using deepfakes, the legal red tape of AI voice cloning, and how this technology is completely changing the way junior creatives are building their portfolios. Let's start with the voice cloning. Jeremy, how easy is it to do that?
Jeremy: Like, these deepfakes, like what we're talking about here, where I can pick up a voice from three seconds of a telephone call, you know, we can do that already with anybody who's done an interview, anybody who's, you know, spoken on TV, on YouTube, on the radio, anything. They could do it of us now, you know, speaking on this podcast, right? And I guess, I guess it's, you know- Let's
Rick: not give them any ideas ...
Jeremy: is there a difference between, you know, a scammer doing it to, you know, bilk my poor mother out of money versus an advertiser who knows that this is my voice and can advertise back to me, you know, in my voice? Or can, I don't know, clone me and somehow sell something to myself, to me, you know, with that voice? Like, is there a line in any of this?
Rick: Yeah, just, I mean, stop and think about that for a second. The, if someone scraped your voice just to pitch a product back to you, I mean, the, it crosses massive ethical lines, consent issues. I mean, there's just a ton of things wrong with that. And you know, who knows, I mean, if they're trying to do it to be clever or something like that. But I think if a brand actually did try that, public backlash would probably be pretty immediate.
Jeremy: Oh, 100%. You, I mean, I, I think most people, like especially my kids, they can see an image and immediately tell you that's AI, you know what I mean? Like, yeah, there's... It's, it's very simple now to kind of pick them out.
Rick: Images, for sure, and even video, I think people are getting pretty good at, you know, being able to differentiate. I think it's the audio that's a little tricky. Like, there are days where I s- I second-guess myself. In the link I shared before for that mosquito zapper, you can easily tell the actors describing it are fully AI.
Tim: Like, there's no doubt about the lips don't match, none of the sound matches. Those are the obvious AIs, but some of them are getting so real that, like, I know it can be done, so I was like, "We could do that. Is it AI? I don't know." Like, I could absolutely AI it, but you almost look at the worst quality videos are now the real ones.
Jeremy: Yeah. The ones that don't have the imperfections. Yeah. I, I mean, I'm seeing tons, tons and tons of, you know, smaller businesses obviously using AI to, to try to sell things, and it's, it, it's never great. You know what I mean? Like, it's never the greatest AI. It's usually the, kind of the same, you know, video formatting. You see the same... You know, the head is always in the same place. They always have the same kind of mannerisms, the same kind of movements, and you kinda get it. And you know, and I, again, I'm kind of torn a bit 'cause if I'm a very small business and I obviously can't afford actors for my spot, like, do I use AI, you know, or-
Rick: Forget just actors. Can... Like, you can't afford the studio-
Jeremy: Yeah ... the producers, the edits. Like, it's not just the actors.
Rick: Oh, 100%, yeah. It's all the stuff that goes with it.
Jeremy: Yeah, 100%. You know, I, I feel like everybody now has Industrial Light & Magic or Pixar kind of in their pocket, right? And they can, they can create m- anything that comes to mind.
Rick: I mean, the trick is, is, you know, having that professional, sort of eye and that a- ability to kind of know what to do to, or what to ask it, to, to make it look, better. But it's getting better and better all the time. So we're kinda relying on those people, the ones that are maybe a bit more sophisticated with visual AI.
Jeremy: We're rely- we're relying on them to have the kind of ethical fortitude, right, to not necessarily do anything that's gonna be You know, disparaging to the, you know, whoever it is that we're depicting, right?
Rick: Yep. You just have to hope that people have some basic common sense. But realistically, agency legal terms and client contracts are gonna prevent that stuff anyway. you know, it's funny that we're worried about creatives sort of sneaking fake i- AI stuff into their portfolios when half the time we're not even allowed to show real campaigns, approved campaigns on, on our website. Tim, have you ever run into that on the development side?
Tim: Yeah, I have. I've had clients... And I'm just talking web. I'm not even talking studio stuff here. I'm talking like, "You cannot use our website as a portfolio piece. We do not want to be associated to any given agency, development shop, or anything like that. This is our intellectual property. We own it."
Jeremy: So how would you feel about, I mean, I mean, this kind of goes a little bit with the portfolio thing. Like, how do you feel about, like, college kids, university kids using generative AI in their portfolios?
Rick: Oh. Well, I do a lot of work with students, and I see a lot of portfolios. They're all using it.
Tim: Oh, they 100%, every last one of them does.
Rick: Yes. You know, it's, it's just, it's the new reality. I mean, we're using it. They're gonna be using it when they get jobs in the agencies. you know.
Jeremy: Yeah. If they used a, like a known person, you know, brought it in. Trying to think. I actually, I don't think I've seen people do that. I haven't seen celebrities in any of the portfolios I kind of saw recently. But I would be okay if they did that.
Rick: I, I don't see an issue with it. It's, it's student work. It's, it's spec. So if they had, like, a killer idea that completely hinged on, you know- I don't know, Matthew McConaughey being the spokesperson, and they wanted to present that idea as kind of a portfolio piece-
Jeremy: Yep ... to an agency.
Rick: I don't, I don't have any huge problem with it. I think that, you know, it depends on what the idea is. If he's running naked down a street, there might be an issue with it. You know, if, if something, if somebody does something, you know, really crazy with a, a celebrity and it's a deep fake, and they put it on their portfolio site, and then that gets picked up and goes viral, they're gonna create a whole bunch of legal trouble for themselves. And, you know, at that point, you also, you know, as an agency, you're interviewing these, you know, somebody that's doing that, you kinda have to question their judgment. So maybe it's a learning thing for the young people. But you really gotta use your head. And, you know, there's, there's certain things that you can probably do. Maybe, you know what, maybe the best advice is to av- avoid that kind of thing, or maybe keep that one in your back pocket and show that during the interview or something like that, but don't put it on, public, on the public site.
Jeremy: You, you would advise against that?
Rick: Well, now that I've sort of done that stream of consciousness and kind of went from, you know, I'm okay with it to suddenly jail, yeah, avoid it. And Tim, if you were to see a student and a lot of what they have done has been vibe coded, maybe that's a totally different type of question, but is that a red flag?
Tim: It's not a red flag for me because it's an unavoidable tool from vibe coding. What if I, what would bother me is, it only being clones of existing apps. Like, there's nothing innovative, there's nothing creative. There, like, if they vibe coded a clone of Uber, of, I don't know, Airbnb, of all these things and all they did was vibe code a clone, like, do you actually know how to do anything? Are you problem-solving? Are you doing anything? So to me, it's not necessarily a red flag to use vibe coded tools because they're unavoidable, and I would want a smart developer to know how to use them to make it easier and make it faster for a lot of the, I'll call it Executional work. good developers are not because they type fast, they're because they can solve complex problems. Solving complex problems is just adapting your tool set. So if you can type, I don't know, a class, an if statement, a for loop, any kind of connectors, an animation, how you built it, whether it's by hand or using the right library, is, is not, in the world I'm hiring today, not a red flag. If I was in a separate environment where you can't use external code because of potential, Trojan horse libraries or anything like that that's been popping up all over the place now, maybe I need somebody that writes all those things from scratch. But to me, it's not a red flag to see that in somebody's portfolio. To me, the red flag is to only see clones of popular apps, because everybody's done the clone through vibe coding. Like, you go around and there's so many clones of Airbnb, of Uber, of, what else? There's another one I saw go by that everybody's built one. Oh, to-do managers. Everybody's built a to-do list manager because it's such a known and common concept that they use it as, "Hey, could I do this?" Yeah, absolutely. Does it look like every other one? Absolutely. So having, having an example is not a big deal.
Jeremy: Mm-hmm. Well, yeah, I guess anybody these days can, you know, create something that looks like a functional site on the surface, but, you know, the real test is whether they actually understand the architecture that's holding it together. Otherwise, it's just kind of an empty shell, right? There's, you know... most big websites are built on a content management system, so if you just create something that visually looks like it, you can't really control it, right? It's, Loses the depth
Tim: Well, so here's the part that gets... And I agree with you, and, but here's the part that gets complicated. It's hard to see that depth without actually going in and trying the installation of one of those apps. So we, we tried, and I forget which one. I'd have to look around, but did it with one of the devs on the team, and we gave it the instructions, "I want an Uber Eats clone for my lemonade stand." And it built a fully functional, you could run it in the brows- build, didn't build the native apps, but it built a fully functional web browser version of Uber Eats to deliver your lemonade across. It had maps. It had directions. It had transactions. How accurate, how safe were they? I have no idea. We didn't get that far, but it did it in about 35 minutes of just AI-generating code. The prompt was, "I want an Uber Eats clone for my lemonade stand." I wanted to use the Uber style guide except replace, or add more yellow because this is a lemonade stand, and it built a full web app for it. Hmm. Server, client side, you name it, everything.
Rick: That's super cool. You know, I, I do think it's great for demoing something like that. But right now I'd be a little concerned about building a career on vibe coding. The second that app breaks, if you don't have the technical fundamentals and knowledge to actually go in and fix, you know, what's underneath, it all falls apart. And, you know, at this point anyway, AI can't do everything. We still need smart people to drive it.
Tim: And this is where my belief is we may get to a point where AI can replace a developer. Today, you need a good developer to make sure that the ID- the, the AI does what it's supposed to and only what it's supposed to.
Rick: Exactly. And listen, this is gonna be an ongoing discussion, and there's gonna be a lot of twists and turns along the way, so we'll keep talking about it. Special thanks to Bas Korsten for taking time to speak with us today. Late-breaking news is that the T-Rex leather handbag won four Lions at Cannes, including gold, silver, bronze, and landed on the titanium shortlist, all super well deserved. Congrats to Bas and his team. Thanks so much, and we'll see you again next time. If you'd like to talk to the hosts of this program or any of the leadership at VML Canada, email us at innovationcanada@vml.com. Check out our show notes for even more details and links to the cases featured in this show. Please remember to follow and rate us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Audible, or wherever you get your podcasts.