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In this episode, we talk about how conventional wisdom around pricing is sometimes wrong.
Two founders talk about how to build software businesses that are meant to last. Each episode includes a deep dive into a different topic related to starting, growing, and sustaining a healthy business.
00:01.56
Rick
What's up this week Tyler
00:01.77
tylerking
This week now a whole lot been been busy with interns and whatnot which we can talk about in a bit. What's going on with you I know.
00:13.34
Rick
Um I am returning from Disneyland ah I'm I yeah you know how they say with when you have kids vacations aren't vacations or you need a vacation from your vacation. it's real. yeah it's real
00:35.49
tylerking
Yeah, said how you're feeling how how old is Oliver like two fourteen months so okay this was not an ah like you didn't go to Disneyland for Oliver's benefit okay got you.
00:48.20
Rick
For fourteen months yeah thanks
01:01.84
Rick
This is a sable trip. Yeah, sable loves Disneyland and I love love I love watching her enjoy Disneyland so it's fun, but but we shared a hotel room with the baby and it was ah woof. Yeah, that was hard straight back to work I got back at midnight jumped got some sleep sables not feeling great so she asked me to help out with Oliver but like as soon as I was about to help out with Oli ofver I realized I had a meeting with Jd and so I was late for that. It's been.
01:38.93
tylerking
Gotcha and then straight back to work when you get back home.
02:13.22
Rick
Yeah, and then you know a work day and and we're getting to record a podcast on a great day I'm actually been looking forward to this all day. Yeah yeah, ah ah, um, well JD and I are um, we we kind of have this cold outreach thing on autopilot.
02:18.13
tylerking
More money. Yeah, you have all right if you say so um, well, cool. Yeah, what's what's on your mind to talk about today. Why.
02:53.00
Rick
Um, it's getting mixed results like we definitely had some really I think strong wins out of the gate and then they haven't really happened as much since then which you probably expected when we were talking but we kind of we have a number of those going out each week we've refined some messaging and I think it's it's just one of those things. It's going to build for q 4 um. So we get a few profiles every every week and then we're starting to. You know we got that going and it's now like what other plates do we want to get spinning and so we're going to try a couple of different things. Um, so I thought I could update you on that.
03:54.71
tylerking
Um, yeah, yeah, that sounds great before you do like what a bummer that it's never as easy as it seems like it's going to be right? like why? Why do you think those early winds weren't I don't know sustainable or whatever.
04:06.70
Rick
Um, ah.
04:22.56
Rick
I Don't have an answer for that I think if I knew that like we would fix it and do it more. But I.
04:32.27
tylerking
Yeah I Just like it sounds like every marketing experience I've ever had where you run you like fire up a new campaign or whatever and like there's there's like it looks like it's working and it just it never does. It's never as good as it seems.
04:57.24
Rick
Yeah, yeah, so I don't know I'm not I'm not saying it's not working but it's not like it's not gonna get us there alone. so yeah yeah so 2 2 other two things we're gonna prioritize this quarters one. We're gonna spin up. Um.
05:13.75
tylerking
Yeah, it's not like you can build your whole business around that model. Yeah, which likes but okay, cool. What else are you working on another.
05:36.14
Rick
There are people who sell leads sort of like what you're buying with theerm. What was the company that you updated on last week saltra advice. So um, we looked into some health insurance specific lead vendors. Um, and we selected one and signed the deal today with been a path.
05:44.71
tylerking
Yeah, software advice is what we're using. Yeah, so we looked at.
06:12.12
Rick
Um, which is a basically a lead purchasing tool and so we're going to buy I think it's a None leads or something like that over the course of a month um that's not right? Maybe it's 10 40 leads for a month and we're going to see. They're basically people who have requested health insurance quotes and in Utah and so.
06:29.29
tylerking
Deep Okay was oh great.
06:51.88
Rick
We're we're going to um, basically it's twenty bucks a pop pretty expensive but we'll we'll run a test for a month and see if it works and if it works we'll keep doing it if it's um, not working and then we won't do it.
07:14.31
tylerking
Yeah, remind me what your kind of Ltv or average. Um Mrr whatever you want to say it you know.
07:24.92
Rick
Um, I you know I I my goal is to pay back in two and a half months so it's all cash payback for me. So that's about that's about $100
07:34.33
tylerking
Back back. So okay, yeah I mean twenty bucks doesn't sound that expensive. Yeah I mean we're we're in like similar ltv situations and um, we're making again very small sample size I expect it's going to stop working the same way. Just discussed but um, yeah, we're we're making it work. we' paying quite a bit more than that I think we're paying maybe 80 to $100 a lead. Ah, it's still pretty early and we have a really small sample. The the answer is yes, but it's like 1 out of 3 people.
08:21.82
Rick
And are you getting conversions.
08:42.50
tylerking
It's like oh man or 30% conversion sounds amazing but like who knows what that'll look like after we bought like a None leads. You know.
08:52.22
Rick
Exactly? Yeah, so we'll have to see but so we're going to do that. Um, that launches today and then we have been just sort of climbing. We talked about programmatic seo last week and so if you think about it like about a year and about a year ago maybe a little over a year ago. Invested pretty heavily in programmatic seo and for like super long tail keywords that that ranks for were. We're um, pretty much number None or number 2 on but when you start getting into like more generic longtail searches like affordable Utah health insurance. As an example. Um, we're we're kind of in the top 20 now for a lot of those searches. So I I want to prioritize a phase two of seo I'm calling it Seo part 2 it's clever and so we're going to invest in some you know onsite and offsite Seo to try to boost the rankings on those particular. Um.
10:05.95
tylerking
Got enough. You know this right? So I.
10:22.73
tylerking
This is. We're going to invest.
10:41.41
tylerking
1 Okay.
10:42.38
Rick
Long tail twor keywords these are searches that get anywhere from a None to 200 searches a month but are super targeted.
10:51.23
tylerking
Great. So the the point is not to get more Keywords It's to get higher rankings for the Keywords you got. Um you said onsite and offsite can you share What specifically you're gonna be doing.
11:11.22
Rick
Yeah there's like None main tactics that that I that I will try out of the gate None is writing new content that targets those long tail phrases. So right now we don't have any content that is really specific to affordable Utah health insurance and the you know second onsite piece. Is once that page is up making it clear that the current page that is ranking for that term points to that new page. So yeah.
11:57.85
tylerking
Work that. So this is something I often wonder about is like you know Google doesn't want anyone to understand their algorithms obviously because then they're easier to game but like I I always worry that I'm like watering down the keywords somehow there versus like trying to invest more in. Like you're pointing a current a page that's currently sort of working at a new page that isn't yet working could that tell Google like actually don't look at that first page look at the None page and potentially even hurt.
13:01.20
Rick
Maybe? um, my experience says that like when you write a better article for the query Google rewards you for that. So um, you know I think I'm not trying to game anything here necessarily I'm actually like there's someone searching for affordable utah health insurance and. Um, try to give them something that's more likely to help them and I think Google rewards that.
13:38.63
tylerking
Okay, so you've got a page that's ranking for that keyword but the page you didn't mean to rank for that keyword. Okay, okay I misunderstood I got you? yeah.
13:55.60
Rick
Yeah, it's Utah individual health insurance guide that's ranking and so um I'm going to you know I think we can write a ah better um, a better piece of content for that person that's searching that query and and then Google you.
14:18.23
tylerking
Yeah.
14:34.10
Rick
And you kind of point Google towards it and then yeah we should I know that we'll definitely beat our current page right? and so then the question becomes what are the pages they're out ranking us can we also beat.
14:34.81
tylerking
Point. Yeah. Right? So if anyone is trying to like generalize this. It's you, you've got a website. It's already attracting some traffic you go look at what keywords it's attracting and say oh I didn't even mean to target that one. Whatever page. It's pointing to whatever page is generating that traffic. You have that point to a new page. That's actually targeting that specific keyword. Okay, so that's an interesting way to find. Yeah, we should probably do that less annoying where like rather than try to figure out through more complex means what keywords to Target just pick the ones we've already got.
15:34.54
Rick
A.
15:58.20
Rick
Oh yeah, the best stuff is the stuff that you're in the top 24 and it's like you want to get on the None page on that makes a huge difference. But yeah, we have a bunch of them. So I I don't know I would probably target um just look I'm pulling up the list right now. But I'm thinking I'm like if we can find 10 to 20
16:00.50
tylerking
Ah, that are kind of mediocre.
16:11.23
tylerking
Okay, cool and.
16:37.40
Rick
That's you know piece of content a week for a quarter and then so phase one is write the content phase 2 onsite and linking strategy make it so the content it's clear that like content supersedes the all content for that particular keyword and then the none is sort of offsite inbound linking. So you know. Finding a question on core I was like where do I find affordable health insurance in Utah answering that question looking back to the article in question pretty.
17:31.33
tylerking
Gotcha cool, you're not doing like like kind of go out and like reach out to bloggers and try to get them to link to you or and it's all kind of like user generated content sites that that you can create these backlinks from.
17:46.86
Rick
I I usually do pretty minimal stuff like which if it's a pretty long tail keyword. There's not a whole lot of competition in the none place. There's not much you need to do and our site's already getting pretty good credit from Google so I expect we'll probably you know like and um, um, oo it's interesting like The other thing is back like what we're talking about is backlinks um a great tool for this is arefs. Do you have a tool. Do you have that tool I mean it's incredible like I just logged in and I'm seeing all the pant pando I'm not Pando excuse me I'm seeing I'm seeing all the backlinks and I'm just noticing like all these different sites are linking to us now that i.
18:32.47
tylerking
Yeah, yeah, we use that.
19:04.42
Rick
Even covered California is linking to us which is this California state marketplace so we're getting because we have good content. We're starting to getting inbound links and that makes it easy to you know it's kind of a virtuous cycle that that leads to easier rank so that's that's the None thing and then we'll we'll come up some other growth tactics. But um.
19:07.79
tylerking
Ah, interesting.
19:26.99
tylerking
Yeah, that's cool.
19:43.16
Rick
You know do you have any need. What do you think about that like is it. It feels like we kind of it kind of felt like we were hitting diment returns on um, our effort. It's not like something we want to stop doing. We definitely want to continue doing it so we're basically like yeah, we'll do like 100 new leads per week that are cold keep that going and then we'll start a couple of other.
20:19.73
tylerking
Yeah I mean that sounds great I Especially I like the buying leads thing because you know we're going through this last snowing serum where you're trying to generate leads right? but everyone else in your field is also trying to generate leads and the nice thing about this is like.
20:21.48
Rick
Ah, channels.
20:53.75
tylerking
What is a lead worth to you versus what it's worth to someone else and if you've got good operations in certain ways or like in our case I think we've got good once someone sees us they're likely to use us. We have really good conversion rates from then on. But we're like generating those leads is super hard. So it's kind of this weird arbitrage where some other companies like we're good at generating leads and terrible at servicing them. You're certainly good at servicing them I'm not saying you're as bad at generating them as I am but like it seems like there's a pretty clear business model there where someone else already has the lead. So yeah, I'm pretty bullish on that and Seo as you know I always say it's it's like the dream.
21:42.90
Rick
Or bad.
22:04.87
tylerking
Ah I've never gotten it to work all that well I've gotten it to work in kind of like medium ways and then every time I try to be deliberate about it like here's the keyword I want or whatever. It's like oh no 50 other companies wanted that keyword too and they won.
22:27.00
Rick
They want? Yeah exactly. So yeah I don't know we'll have to um, we're not good at at generating leads either. So I think ah I think we want to get better and so we need to try new things.
22:39.89
tylerking
Yeah.
22:51.90
tylerking
Yeah I did want to that made me think I'm not taking any action on this right now but we talked I brought up programmatic seo ah an episode or None of the ideas that I think if I remember correctly you were bullish on was that but I was I wasn't sure if I wanted to do it. But I'm getting more bullish on is. Giving profiles to our customer like like ah giving our customers the ability to create pages for their business I've just like since we talked about that I've been thinking more and more when I talk to a customer or read an email I've been asking myself does this company have a website and like a lot of the time. The answer is no.
23:54.60
Rick
Are a.
24:02.39
tylerking
Like more than I because I hadn't really been paying that much attention to it before a lot of the time the answers. No and if I could just give them a really simple like it. It wouldn't be less annoying serum because that's not a very professional brand but you know like small biz pages dot Gov or whatever, not that. But ah, give them like a little profile somewhere I actually think a lot of them would take us up on it.
24:26.68
Rick
Yeah.
24:41.10
tylerking
And it pairs really nicely with a different feature. We want to build which is web forms. Yup, so it's like if you want a web form and scheduling links. Yeah, exactly so it's like you can kind of have this little mini website with these things.
24:45.10
Rick
Web Forms I also goes just I was thinking contact forms and you yeah, totally and and scheduling links. It's.
25:15.13
tylerking
But like in order to use the web forms and the scheduling links. Well every every customer that uses it gives us another page that can rank.
25:26.66
Rick
Do you remember when I said like when you you remember had to you that you had that long list of things that or that sorry I meant short list of things that like development engineering could help drive from a growth standpoint.
25:40.77
tylerking
Um, yeah.
25:55.82
Rick
I Just think I think the more you focus on this the more ideas like the one you just came out like which is like good for customers good for our long-term product roadmap and we'll help like generate leads. It all comes into one and man find more of those and work on them.
26:02.15
tylerking
Ah.
26:17.79
tylerking
Yeah I've actually got a pretty a much longer list than I did when we talked about it exactly like you said once you start thinking about it and paying attention to it. The the opportunities start start kind of smacking you in the face. So yeah, we're in the middle of we've basically got the bandwidth to do 3 kind of.
26:26.24
Rick
Me.
26:40.40
Rick
That's so cool.
26:50.21
tylerking
Medium to big projects at once and we've we in the middle of good three good ones. It's not that I regret picking any of them. But they're not quite like that. But the next round ones these are done I think we're going to really open up a lot of new stuff. So I'll keep you updated. It'll probably be months before we do that. But ah I'm excited about it. Um.
27:24.20
Rick
That's awesome.
27:29.23
tylerking
Yeah, what else? what else is going on with you.
27:31.26
Rick
Um, tell me I've got like a couple other things to talk about, but it's a little bit I Guess it's kind of related like so so when we were doing our personalized Outreach. We've been testing with different outreach strategies and. What did expose We got a reply from some person. It's like hey like that was a really good personalized email but it'd be better if you didn't focus on so much personalization actually told me what you did you know like it was like we we we got a reply. Yeah and ah and so.
28:16.45
tylerking
Yeah, this is not like oh I see you have a dog and yeah, yeah.
28:35.14
Rick
We we took that to heart and we we started working on messaging and it sort of exposed like okay, how do we? How do we tell people about us in like the elevator pitch. Um, and so we started working on that and we know we need to update the website with what we've learned. It's too like generic and overcomplicated um, but ah. You know we don't know necessarily what to say and so None thing we did to solve this at people keep which jd and I both were involved in was we created ah ah a point of view and we realized like we're we're kind of missionaries in a way. Um, in that we're going out to this very old market and saying. We don't want to say this is a new way of doing things but we have a better way and we so we're promoting like this like why you need an agent why you know why? it's good to have an agent with health insurance. Why you know leg up health is is worth taking you know a minute to make your agent and so um, the concept is called a point of view and.
29:53.79
tylerking
The.
30:29.20
Rick
Basically, it's like a brand story but you write it as sort of a pretty missionary-driven None second None to None pitch and you get that right? and you fill it with all the meat of the problem that you're solving and you know the solution that you're that you're bringing. Um, and your differentiation and um, if you get it right? What should happen is when you talk to an ideal customer. They go yes, that's exactly right for me and when you when you talk to someone who's not an ideal customer. They kind of look at you like I have no idea what you're talking about because it's so targeted.
31:41.23
tylerking
Ah, yeah, so we're.
31:45.64
Rick
And so we're um, we're working on that pov for leg up health together and it's a really interesting exercise.
31:55.11
tylerking
So a challenge here that I can imagine is like it's I imagine it's a different point of view depending on whether you're talking to someone who has an agent and you're trying to convince them to switchish to you versus someone who like just went online and bought something and doesn't have an agent because I imagine one's kind of like. Younger I don't want to talk to people the internet solves all problems and the other is like very old school and their objection might be like you but you really have my back like can we can we go play golf together. Um, can you target both of them at once or are you picking None or the other.
32:42.54
Rick
He I.
32:59.28
Rick
That's interesting I haven't really thought about it from that like demographic perspective. Ah, but yeah, it's a good question. We haven't figured this out I Want to be very clear like I don't know the answer to this and we in.
33:20.90
tylerking
Yeah I don't know.
33:29.46
Rick
But I think we probably need to pick our a generic one and and focus on that It's probably more like likely to be the millennialt doesn't want to talk to anyone versus the guy who wants to play golf. Um, but but yeah, like well you know we've got enough of clients to say like hey let's talk to you know.
33:44.79
tylerking
Yeah, that makes sense to me. Yeah, like.
34:06.44
Rick
Steve you know, let's pretend we're talking to Steve what do we want to say um, but man it's a hard exercise and it's but it's a fun. Um, it's a fun one and I think what? what our plan is is that we're going to spend like the next few it probably take a couple months to work to get it right? actually like um.
34:09.21
tylerking
What do we want to say to abandon some hard exercise.
34:45.40
Rick
You know test it and then once we have it right? we'll we'll sort of align the whole website we should run us massively simplify the website and like align it around the pov. So we're just saying the same thing over and over again. Um, and then I think we'll be in a good place for open enrollment.
35:07.39
tylerking
Great, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Yeah, we're kind of going through. Yeah I mentioned we hired demand Maven this consultancy to like they're doing it all so I have a few updates related to that but like they're ultimately doing exactly what you're doing for us but like I'm kind of like making up in my mind I'm like what like. Guessing at what they're going to do because like like they're like dripping information to me and um, but None of the things on my mind is exactly what I just said to you. We have 2 different types of people coming to lesssoming serum. There's you're switching from a different crm or you were using like outlook or nothing at all and how do you talk to both of them I think we figured out or I think i. Got a theory as to how to speak to both of them. Even if you're switching from excel you almost always evaluate multiple crms at the same time and if you're using a crm you're at least comparing us with what you're using. So I think we can do the like aren't those other crms annoying regardless of which of the two it is but like we. I think we can tweak our language to like fit both of them a little bit better. Probably.
37:01.50
Rick
Yeah, and there's probably like your core purpose that like shines through on both of those just so the pov would sit on top. The the pov that I'm thinking of would sit on top of that and would really get your emotional connection and then you would adjust it and align to it for each of those.
37:22.39
tylerking
Yeah.
37:40.42
Rick
Ah, viewers but like more specific to their to their needs on a particular website page. For example.
37:46.39
tylerking
The problem is the jobs to be done is different for the 2 like if you're using excel the job to be done is like I need better reporting and stuff to stop slipping through the cracks whereas if you're using salesforce or hubspot the job to be done is like you're you're already. You've got the reporting. That's not the problem. It's that you you can't.
38:12.54
Rick
A.
38:21.85
tylerking
Onboard new users or it's like a totally different problem. You're solving. That's probably not true with you though. Even though you're talking to 2 different types of people. The problem is like you you want health insurance and you don't want to be uncertain about it.
38:23.40
Rick
Oh that's interesting. Yeah.
38:39.46
Rick
What it's I know you're It's actually you're you're hitting the same thing like when when you're looking to buy health. It's either you, You don't have health insurance and you want to buy it or you have health insurance and you don't have an agent or you do have an agent. It doesn't really matter. Um, you know your pain when you need a quote is much higher than.
38:56.61
tylerking
Buy it right.
39:18.14
Rick
You know when you need a health insurance. You don't have it. It's It's a much more like you know, different pain point than if you have health insurance on an agent.
39:32.75
tylerking
This is why I think like all big companies. Their websites end up turning into like just meaningless platitudes like I haven't checked. Slack's website recently. But I know for a long time.. It's like where work gets done.. It's like that doesn't tell you anything about what slack is and it's because. There are so many Personas and so many use cases that they just can't speak to them so they have no choice but say something super generic but that also means like that's our opportunity right? As small businesses is to like just pick one and speak directly to them and and say okay, we're gonna alienate everyone else. Is it.
40:35.22
Rick
Slack is your digital headquarters is what it is now.
40:40.97
tylerking
That's a little better than where work gets done I guess um, yeah, so well another update on the the demand Maven stuff. So again, they're they're doing this whole thing and they're going to like give me a report so the fact that I'm paying attention to it is sort of like a waste of time. It's just fun. Um, but what they're doing is they're doing customer interviews so they asked us for like.
40:45.38
Rick
What it tell me about you.
41:19.71
tylerking
Ah, we're starting with 10 interviews of our happiest customers which by the way, let me just pause. This is something I was always really nervous about with customer interviews is I was like I don't honestly want to get on the phone and have someone tell me why they're unhappy or all the things that we could do better it just would be demoralizing. Demand Maven's like well no fuck them like if they're not happy. That's not the type of person you're trying to target so don't talk to anyone that doesn't already love you which what a relief none of all. Ah, but so they're going out and doing all these customer interviews and they record them all. It's like over Zoom and so I just I'm doing like no work. But I've got this.
42:06.72
Rick
Yeah, yeah.
42:31.19
tylerking
Library of customer interviews to watch and it's been like really eye-opening and interesting. Um, like none of all just seeing a professional do a customer interview has been nice and it it isn't hard is one night like it's there's literally a script of questions that she's running through and asking which isn't to say she's not good at it just like. I'm a lot less intimidated by it than I would have been before um, but then also like I've been really kind of fascinated by the answers. We're getting so I thought maybe I could run through a few like takeaways. Um, so first you've you've done this type of thing you know how to do like customer research. But for people who don't like the questions are very behavioral. It's like.
43:21.72
Rick
I Would love to hear this.
43:44.61
tylerking
Tell me about you tell me about your company. Um, what were you using before lessening serm. What was the the thing that caused you to look for something else. Why'd you go crm with lessening serum and then a bunch of questions that it's all the same question but like phrase different ways like what do you love about lessening serum. What's the number None thing lessening serum does for you. If you describe lessing to someone else. What? how would you describe it and it's just trying to get like all these buzzwords and keywords out of people that we can then take and put on our our homepage and stuff so that's that's more or less how you would do it right? Yeah, okay, so that's just the for for the listener who hasn't done this before That's the basic. Ah.
44:40.96
Rick
Um, oh yeah.
44:57.31
tylerking
Kind of template here. So none of all a couple of the things that we've so I've listened to maybe None of these interviews so not a huge sample size but enough a lot of stuff goes against what all the thought leaders in our space say um, the biggest one I just tweeted about this earlier today I think. Out of the 6 I've heard None of them said the main reason they used us is price which you just hear everyone say nobody buys based on price customers are not as price sensitive as you think they are raise prices. You only want to go after the big ones now.
45:40.42
Rick
Um.
46:06.29
tylerking
None None of those people might counter what I'm saying by being like well you've got shitty customers right? They'd be like you. You got the customers nobody else wanted just because they bought because of price doesn't mean that's a good way to go but I don't know that that's just wrong. We have great customers these people like love us. They're super easy to work with. They're actually relatively high ltv because they're they're all 10 plus users. Um, so just one one anecdotal data point some people buy stuff based on price and they said if we had been more expensive. They wouldn't have used us. Yeah.
47:10.92
Rick
That's awesome. Do you think that they would have um, but like so so do you think that? That's why they started looking at I would so the other follow up questions about that that okay.
47:31.11
tylerking
Yeah, yeah, yeah, okay, yeah, so so let me I can answer what you're thinking right? now they picked us because of price when asked what their favorite thing is none of them said price different things like um, really a lot of it. A lot of it has to do with customization. Um.
47:44.30
Rick
Yeah. What do they say.
48:08.10
tylerking
And the reality is we're less customizable than most of our competition but it's so complicated with them The the funny thing is the people the the customers they interviewed they didn't say less knowing serum is easier to customize. They say it has customization features that the competitors don't but it's because they couldn't understand the competitors.
48:35.16
Rick
A.
48:44.95
tylerking
Just wrong about what the competitors could do because it was so complicated they couldn't that they they didn't They don't even understand what the features are which I thought was kind of interesting so customization was one simplicity is another this. This is kind of point number two here. A lot of people say you can't sell with simplicity is not a feature. Ah you got to do jobs to be Done. You got to do like. Is going to make you more money or get you more leads or whatever and multiple of these interviews they were like simplicity is my favorite thing like basically they were saying the word simple needs to be plastered all over the the homepage. Um, oh absolutely.
49:50.92
Rick
That's that aligns with less annoying.
49:56.90
tylerking
Hundred percent but but I've just seen so much advice that like you you can't build a marketing message around that because everyone says they're simple which is fair. Maybe there's something to that. But ah, um, anyway, so sorry I'm kind of bouncing around but back to that so they they looked at us and took us seriously and chose us largely because of price.
50:10.42
Rick
Now.
50:33.85
tylerking
But they're not listing that as their favorite thing now which I think is an important distinction. Well, it's that the price got them in the door. But then you need to like all the things that thought leaders are saying you need you need a great product. You need to provide a lot of value. That's absolutely true, but they might look at you because of price.
50:35.42
Rick
What does that tell you.
51:08.37
tylerking
Like if I wanted to start an intercom competitor right now I'd get a lot of eyeballs by being like intercom's pricing is terrible. We cost a None what they do, but then you also still have to have a product that competes with intercom what? What do you think.
51:25.84
Rick
Um, I think that's right and I'm just thinking that like if you can. It's really interesting to think about how to do that. With ah with an entry level product and then have an upgrade path that extracts more value I feel like front figured that out for some reason like that's the company I'm thinking of that is easy to enter into as a small company but like and you get It's a great product and you get you know.
51:52.25
tylerking
Of have great to have extract more value.
52:26.74
Rick
Yeah, why did I pick front like it's cheap, but it also is a great product. But if I really want to unlock its full potential I've got to pay lots a lot more money.
52:38.17
tylerking
Yeah I was gonna I don't think of it as cheap because we pay them a lot. What's their entry level twenty bucks a month. Yeah per user. Yeah I think we're paying their next level up. It says is 49 I think we're paying somewhere in between I think we're paying None but yeah i.
52:52.78
Rick
That's not that's probably not what you're paying.
53:04.00
Rick
Are. But yeah.
53:15.91
tylerking
Yeah, there are a lot of Saas products that are cheap that are like on the venture like notion I think is pretty cheap. Slack is pretty cheap but that's because they're going for like a mass market thing. That's not really what like the bootstrapers I don't think that's a model I would recommend companies like us follow probably um.
53:28.40
Rick
A.E.
53:48.31
tylerking
Cool and then ah another note I had here. This is only 1 person that mentioned it. So like I haven't heard this repeated but like 1 person was like the thirty day free trial was huge everywhere else is trying to give me the shortest free trial. They possibly can you know five days seven days and it's it's not enough time and this is another thing thought leaders always say it's plenty of time if they're serious.
54:09.52
Rick
Seven days yeah
54:24.77
tylerking
Don't need more than seven days and anyway I just had like None person say out loud. She she tried multiple products and she's like at the end of the trial I couldn't tell yet I didn't have time to get my users on board get my data imported I couldn't tell if they were a good fit less knowing serum gave me another month so I continued the trial for the 30 days and it was good enough that I didn't you know. I didn't need to pay the other ones because I could keep doing this trial for longer. So yeah, just all of this conventional wisdom I've just heard contradicted and it could be survivorship. Bias could be selection bias but like it's something it means something.
55:09.48
Rick
That's awesome.
55:24.40
Rick
Do you? um are you so watching these interviews So I've watched customer interviews before too and I always like find myself going, ask this ask this did you have any moments where you're like.
55:39.83
tylerking
I Watched that I always find myself going.
55:54.80
Rick
Please go like please ask them this like where you want to follow up with these people and ask them some um, some clarifying questions. That's good.
56:03.63
tylerking
Ah, not really no. But I think it's so partially. Yeah,, they're good at doing this and even though they're following a script like they go off script when necessary but also this is like really specifically for marketing and not.. It's not a product customer review. They're not trying to figure out what feature should we build next or whatever. Um, so they're what what? the what demand mavens really looking for I think is like what words do they use to describe it and I don't think you need a ton of followup questions to get that type of information. Yeah, yeah.
57:08.68
Rick
That's cool. Well this is man that's that's a lot of value. Add the Demand Demand Maven is providing I'm impressed.
57:16.41
tylerking
Yeah, yeah, it's also really cool that they they let us they were like are there any other questions you want to ask So I added a question to it which is are there other people at your company that probably should be using lessing serum that aren't because I'm curious about like is there expansion room for expansion and so far I haven't gotten any super interesting stuff out of that. But it. It is kind of cool that ah well and sorry I'm just going to like say nice things about Demand. Maybe another cool thing they do is like even though they're not us they represent the company real well where if someone like they have a question at the end where like anything else I can pass on to lessening s Hereum team and if if someone complains they're like oh I'm so sorry to hear that like. Definitely like they represent us well which I was really I was really really worried about a None party company acting on behalf of us because our customers don't get that the person they're talking to doesn't work at lessening s hereum So I was really nervous about that and they've done it like a super good job of representing us. Well.
58:51.52
Rick
E.
59:04.60
Rick
Um, and have you got anything from that question I Love Broad open questions like that at the end of a customer interview.
59:14.39
tylerking
Um, anything you want to pass on to the team. Um, a couple people have just been like I Love you guys like amazing customer service and then a couple people a couple of people like kind of said what features they wanted built but there was a different question. There was already questions like what's.. What's the thing that stresses you out about lessening serum is how they phrase it ah different things like everyone's got their own feature and they're all super understanding right? These are people who love us so they're like oh I would love integration with this product but like that's only for credit unions and I get that they're not going to do that.
59:57.60
Rick
What's the question. What are the answers to that.
01:00:27.95
tylerking
Or better reporting was one but I actually did take a handful of notes like oh yeah, like we should do that. So it's been really good so far is there.
01:00:41.22
Rick
Did did you is there a takeaway for you that like maybe you should hire someone to do this regularly full time.
01:00:51.89
tylerking
Ah I'm not quite there but my my takeaway was this I I don't like talking to people I'm a huge Introvert it's It's draining for me if I have one customer conversation I Always enjoy it but it it kills my productivity for the day. What I'm realizing from this is like I can still. Learn all the things from a customer interview without being the one on the call which I had never considered before before I was like well someone if someone else does it. They also have to be the one to take all the notes and to take get all the insights out of it and I'm like oh someone else can just go do the call record it and show it to me I just I never considered that as a possible workflow. So yeah, I'm getting there. Yeah, um, so yeah and we haven't even gotten to the good part of the engagement. Yeah, where they start saying hey here here are our marketing ideas based on that so we'll we'll see what else comes out of this. Um, so I did want to Speak. Ah.
01:02:10.28
Rick
That's awesome.
01:02:45.25
tylerking
1 of the topics I said there was people are saying the low price mattered a lot and as you recall two years ago we raised our price from 10 to $15 and I am like a little in my in my own head here like was that the right decision.
01:03:19.84
Rick
Um, you'll never know.
01:03:21.29
tylerking
I don't have yeah, we'll never know we'll never know but like the way the numbers look right now. Our revenue is going up entirely because of the price increase right now we're basically not growing users hardly at all. But as $10 users churn and $15 users join. We're not growing quickly but we are growing and. We wouldn't be at all without the price increase the flip side of that is well well okay, it sounds like a good decision when you look at it that way flipside. Maybe the reason we're not growing users is because we went from being the cheapest crm to like tied with 20 other products for the cheapest Crm.
01:04:01.32
Rick
Um, sounds like a good decision.
01:04:29.72
Rick
You? Well why don't you I have suggestion run a $10 campaign for sixty days you don't have you know this look for that. Do you? It's impossible.
01:04:32.73
tylerking
I wouldn't have thought that $5 would matter. But after hearing these interviews. Maybe they do know? yeah a campaign. Yeah well we've talked about this right? I think a B testing pricing. I don't I don't think you can do it the way people say you can because there's so many None and None order effects about this that you that you wouldn't notice.
01:05:08.32
Rick
No I agree I Don't think that's why I say you? you don't know like I think you just have to be mean I don't think you've made a huge mistake with the pricing but like have you left money on the table. Yes. Somewhere like eitherre not raising prices enough for not raising or raising them too much but like I mean are you happy? Yeah, Are you happy with where you are as a business I think the answer is yes so you've got to say like good job.
01:05:43.30
tylerking
Not really very much like we're probably not at the perfect level. Are you happy where you are? Yeah yeah, absolutely I I guess ah, ah my thought for for the the audience is like. Right now we are a I think good product with on the the cheapest level I think if you're starting a new Crm right now you want to be the cheapest one I don't think you want to be the same price. Everyone else is. And then compete on features I think you could get a significant number of customers just being the cheap I don't mean carm specifically but any of these mature software categories being the cheapest one I am more convinced than ever is a viable strategy What do you think about like.
01:07:08.86
Rick
What do you think about like ah the most expensive but perfect for like the credit Union integration As an example like a niche go after a niche like and just say like I am for let's just say real estate agents. Um.
01:07:23.19
tylerking
The most sorry rephrase that yeah I am or.
01:07:40.16
Rick
And I am the perfect serum for real estate agents and I'm 3 times the cost lessening ser m but it's worth it because I'm for you.
01:07:49.15
tylerking
Yeah, so those exist in almost all of our verticals right now. Definitely real estate has like 20 of these. Um, and yeah, they're 3 times across is almost exactly right? They're normally in the kind of $45 I range um and a lot of people use them. But the people who use us.
01:08:09.40
Rick
Um.
01:08:23.45
tylerking
Like oh yeah, I used them. They had all the integrations I wanted but a the product was shittier more on that in a second and B I I couldn't afford it now the product being Shittier. You could say well could we build a really good product. Could we build a nonshitty version of those and beat them all out but I kind of think no and what I mean by that is like you. If you have such a small niche like you're you're capping the size your company can become. You could have a really nice profitable high-margin business but like the best software is always going to be built I Think by the biggest companies. And I think if you don't go mass Market. Someone else is going to come along and use those economies of scale to like just have a more polished product than you. That's my theory.. What do you think about that.
01:09:39.60
Rick
Um, no I think that's probably right.
01:09:46.49
tylerking
Yeah, So I think the future is specialized crms that are unpolished but exactly functionally what the customer needs competing with Mass Market crms that are like way more like consumer level polished products. But it's like a million zapier. Workrounds and stuff like that to get it to actually do what you want it to do which do you think wins or or is is it just both. Yeah yeah, all right? Well I've rambled a lot about myself. Um.
01:10:25.98
Rick
Yeah, every everyone both of them. Both of them markets. Huge Do you? What is your answer did your price increase help like do you feel good about your price increase in hindsight yes or no.
01:10:59.79
tylerking
Yes, but that's because we've made other decisions as a business that make our made our margins troubling at $10 if we didn't have the really good customer service. The really small average account size. All that stuff I think being at $10 would have been better. The problem is like we made so many other. Constraints around Ourselves. We just couldn't We couldn't be profitable enough at that price point.
01:11:43.76
Rick
Makes sense What else you got.
01:11:48.61
tylerking
Yeah, um, all right? Yeah, this is again I don't know what there is to talk about here but I've just noticed myself listening to fewer and fewer podcasts like this one. Ah I don't know Well yeah I used to listen I Still do but like.
01:12:07.96
Rick
Why is that.
01:12:20.41
tylerking
Used to be the only podcast I listened to were 2 founders talking to each other about stuff and I don't know if I'm like having a mood just like burnt out on it or what but I'm listening to more and more podcasts that I don't expect to learn anything from like.
01:12:48.96
Rick
It's just pure entertainment.
01:12:51.13
tylerking
Pure entertainment like I just found out I do do you watch always sunny Philadelphia you have okay, it's not like 1 of your favorites I love that show. That's like that's my comfort show. So I just found out that they have a podcast and it's every bit as comforting as a show. It's just so easy to listen to time just passes.
01:13:00.62
Rick
I've watched it with you when we when we live together and yeah I know you do.
01:13:20.54
Rick
Um, wait are they in character.
01:13:28.51
tylerking
No, but they're more similar to their characters than you'd think the 3 guys who are the writers. So um in the and the show their names are Charlie Dennis and Mac the the 3 of them they write the show. Um, it's just like super fun.
01:13:32.10
Rick
Wait who's on the podcast.
01:13:49.36
Rick
Oh my gosh.
01:14:02.73
tylerking
And I've never listened to entertaining podcasts before but I found myself recently I don't know I'm just like burnt out on like trying to learn all the time or whatever.
01:14:14.44
Rick
Yeah I mean that happens well are you writing I'm curious like are you is this like ah across the board or is this like maybe you've replaced your podcast habit with other learning avenues.
01:14:21.79
tylerking
Yeah I Wonder if it's a phase or a writing or.
01:14:46.93
tylerking
I don't think I've replaced it with anything. No I mean I'm still learning most of my learning comes from Twitter and I'd say second most was podcasts before and I'm still listening to like my top podcasts or just if I'm if I do a lot of gardening one week I I get through everything. But a lot of these if I were listening to this podcast regularly I probably stopped in the last few weeks anyway.
01:15:38.22
Rick
Well maybe outgrew them. Maybe you're like this is um, it's It's pretty repetitive isn't it.
01:15:52.37
tylerking
Yeah, that's a good point. It is and I the 2 or 3 favorites I still listen to pretty pretty heavily. So yeah, that could be that I they just I didn't like them that much. Yeah, yeah, and then when I finish those 2 or 3 I'm like let's go listen to something fun.
01:16:05.92
Rick
Ah, so you're down from like 20 podcasts a week to like 2 or 3 Okay.
01:16:28.23
tylerking
And actually yeah, it's a good point though the 2 or 3 I listen to are the ones where the founders have employees and like meaningful revenue. Yeah yeah, that's probably it. My.
01:16:38.18
Rick
Further along? yeah yeah, that's probably what it is. It's probably it's probably less the style and more just like you're getting into a phase where there are less founder podcasts that fit your your interest. Yeah.
01:17:01.31
tylerking
Yeah, but I've been in this phase since before I like I've I've been in this mode for like 5 years but anyway yeah, it's not interesting but I just figured I'd share that. Um you got anything your list seems bare in here. Okay, um so I saw this ah article online.
01:17:26.72
Rick
I'm done I got nothing else.
01:17:38.50
tylerking
That I will link to in the show notes and it's called we need a middle class for startups did that come across your radar. Um, it introduces this term I'm going to mispronounce this middle stand I guess it's like a german word that I guess Germany kind of famously has all these like.
01:17:47.78
Rick
I Have not seen it.
01:18:15.33
tylerking
Mid-sized businesses that have been around for generations and they're just they're just like good profitable businesses. But the point of this. Ah yeah I I read this like two weeks ago when I added this I think like you know None employees something in there.
01:18:22.18
Rick
What what is a midsize business.
01:18:44.46
Rick
Okay.
01:18:47.91
tylerking
And it even says like there are some that are None employees that probably still qualify but like they're still run more like a um, kind of family run or just just more like the the the ethos of a small business but but they get bigger. Um, and the the articles just talking about how like. It's not addressing our space specifically but how like in the bootstrap space. It's all about how much revenue can I get as a solo founder or a really really small team or it's like I want to become the next Google and it's just like there's a middle ground where you grow you do hire employees. You can get a lot more done. You can serve a lot more customers. But your goal isn't.
01:20:01.80
Rick
No, that's interesting. No I have to take a look at this article. It's um I'm I'm just skimming it right now and it's like basically um, you know there's this whole middle ground of exits. That's you know beyond 10000000 you know and revenues and.
01:20:02.27
tylerking
World domination.
01:20:36.24
Rick
But below the unicorn status that is pretty meaningful and important. Um, but like you know I'm looking at his advice and it's like basically be indie as long as possible. It's like do all the things a bootstrapper does until some point. Um.
01:20:36.65
tylerking
Below that.
01:21:08.29
tylerking
Yeah, but it's do the things a bootstrapper does but without the I feel like ah, a lot of the bootstraper space is all about Lifestyle ah engineering almost where it's like be able to be a nomad and don't take on any commitments and all this stuff which if that's what you want.
01:21:24.64
Rick
E.
01:21:42.10
tylerking
More power to you but it is true. You don't hear as much like I'm going to be a manager I'm like I'm going to take on all of the stress and risk and downside and and like it's like I'm working at a bigger company. Ah you don't hear that as much I mean I guess part of it is.
01:22:08.40
Rick
Why is that.
01:22:19.97
tylerking
No No one wants to and why would you if you don't have to like if you're some kind of maniac that wants to be a billionaire.. It's a small price to pay that you have to like every once while you have to fire people. But if you're like all I want is to build software. That's interesting to me and like you know, spend time with my family. Why hire that employee and risk needing to like have needing to fire them one day. Maybe I kind of get it. Ah yeah, So so maybe there shouldn't be these maybe there just aren't well sorry I'm gonna go off from wear tangent here.
01:23:12.32
Rick
That's fair.
01:23:36.30
tylerking
This this occurs to me ah often like less knowing serum has a kind of unique culture and sometimes employees have said to me like man more companies should be like this. Why aren't more companies like this and the thing that makes me uncomfortable is a lot of time. It turns to like that I'm some kind of amazing boss or something and then I'm like. If you were the boss Would you do anything differently and they're like no like everyone everyone you know would be generous to employees and would let people go home at 5 and stuff like that. That's not what's unique.. The unique thing is that people like that never bothered to start a company.
01:24:36.28
Rick
Yeah, that's exactly right.
01:24:42.57
tylerking
And I don't know how many people there are in the world that like have the weird drive to start a company and then also don't want to maximize profit or power or whatever it is once they get there.
01:25:09.78
Rick
That's exactly what it is.
01:25:16.35
tylerking
Um, one other thought I had about this article because I do disagree with None thing. It says it says more of these middlestead middle stand if I'm saying that right companies should ipo that that's like a really good option for mid-sized companies I mentioned what you think about this like. I don't think a publicly traded company can be what's what's described in this article I think the the way our our fucked up form of capitalism right now works is like if you are publicly traded. You have a bunch of shareholders and they are going to force you to try to grow as big as you possibly can. Is is there room in the world for publicly traded like just happy where they are companies.
01:26:37.56
Rick
I Don't know like I haven't been I haven't worked at a public company before I haven't experienced that but I imagine that if I mean if you're public and you I mean you don't have to give up control of your company if you go public.
01:27:06.33
tylerking
You don't have to give up control but you have some sort of duty to those shareholders. Don't you.
01:27:16.46
Rick
Yeah, but so I mean that's true if you have private shareholders So like I guess you know if you expand the conversation to like take on investors like more so than just ipo. It's like you owe.
01:27:40.43
tylerking
Like like yeah you have to.
01:27:45.26
Rick
You have fiduciary responsibility to any investor including your employees like if you are giving them any sort of compensation in stock. So it's like yeah.
01:27:54.85
tylerking
Sorry and I sort of mean that but if you read the article. It's kind of saying like you should not raise money for growth. But you you still want to like these founders should be able to exit. Ah, it's about liquidity. Yes, yes, like.
01:28:16.46
Rick
Is it about liquidity is that what he was arguing. Yeah yeah, so like I mean I get it? Um, but yeah, there are downsides if you go ipo for sure like there's lots of a lot a lot of downsides.
01:28:44.55
tylerking
A lot of them. Yeah, yeah, anyway control.
01:28:50.66
Rick
You don't have to give up control that Ipo isn't synonymous I don't think with like not being able to control your destiny.
01:29:07.69
tylerking
I'm sure there are examples out there. None of them are high profile of like like there are examples of like Mark Zuckerberg or the Google founders like doing this weird voting rights on their like 2 different types of stock and they technically maintain control. But.
01:29:23.14
Rick
E.
01:29:33.97
tylerking
Like Google's a great example. They used to be the good guys. They used to work on cool tech just because it was cool to do and now they're just like a horrible advertising company that doesn't give a shit about anything else. Um like every company gets corrupted eventually. Anyway, sorry I'm just bitter.
01:30:03.14
Rick
That's the do you want to? are you ever going to ipo. Never.
01:30:13.99
tylerking
no no I mean well yeah I I have technically left the door open for some sort of exit for lessening serum. But I've told people well yeah, okay I'm gonna let's let's go there. Mailchimp had this exit. They told all their employees they weren't going to exit so they didn't give anyone stock options then they sold for like $12000000000 to intuit or whatever and all their employees were like what the fuck you told us you weren't going to exit and and now the founders are billionaires and the employees got close to nothing I do want to put something in place so that if if I change my mind in the future. I don't want like give stock options right now because I think that's misleading but I have been thinking about like rewriting the operating agreement to like give everyone a share in it just so that if we want to get greedy later. We can all be greedy together now I know I know absolutely. But um.
01:31:42.22
Rick
Yeah, but you don't need to do that now to be able to do that later.
01:31:58.91
tylerking
You know you you often comment on how like we've built an environment of trust a less serum and that is one of the ways to do It is to like get ahead of this stuff.
01:32:06.20
Rick
Oh no I I agree I'm I'm doing the same thing with leg Appel like j d there's a big difference between like what JD has in his hand signed from me versus like oh yeah, yeah, I'll take care you.
01:32:23.50
tylerking
Yeah, right, right? right? because that's what the mail and and mailchimps they they like quote unquote did take care of their employees but they gave them all like 10000 to $50000 instead of at any other startup it would have been millions for many of these people.
01:32:52.34
Rick
Um I I don't understand that decision like how many people was it. Yeah, the the problem that you run into when you exit like that is that if you give people too much money they leave and then the company isn't worth anything.
01:33:02.53
tylerking
How many employees at the company I mean they've got to have None I would think.
01:33:27.97
tylerking
Yeah, yeah.
01:33:28.74
Rick
And so you you have to tie it up to like all kinds of retention things and then you know now all of a sudden intuit's not as interested because all the employees are going to quit in 2 years when the retention bonus hits. So it's challenging. He.
01:33:46.97
tylerking
Quit that is tough I kind of like the idea of putting a poison pill in place though because it's like when I say we're not going to sell what I mean is we've literally made this in a worthless company to anyone else I think there's something kind of beautiful about that.
01:34:11.76
Rick
Yeah, yeah, it's exactly yep.
01:34:23.59
tylerking
I did we did we talk but no I talked about this when we were on our hiatus. Ah when I was doing the podcast with Drew Riley we did an episode on the book. Um, small small giants I think it's called have you read that one which is about.
01:34:47.38
Rick
And have it.
01:34:57.75
tylerking
It's about companies like us I I don't know it's a great book. But it's it's worth reading for any startup to last company because it's like oh there there are companies like us that started in the seventy s which is kind of cool. Um, but None of the big problems that this book faces is like how do you exit like the when when the founder is ready to retire. You can't give the company to people because it's worth so much that the tax burden would crush everybody. It's like the only option is to according to the book is well. It isn't say the only option but None of the options is to get acquired I have I don't know the legal stuff on this, you might know more about this than me. If you do something that effectively makes the company worth zero dollars to investors you could then give it to employees and they'd have no taxes to pay right? yeah.
01:36:17.14
Rick
Yeah, effectively yeah and the way you would. There's there's something called a None avaluation that for purposes of like issuing stocks and options to employees like sets the tax rate and so you can go if you can go to a firm and get a None avaluation that sets like the common stock to.
01:36:39.43
tylerking
Like said Tax-ray and then you can go to a firm.
01:36:53.89
tylerking
And yeah, exercise price like that.
01:36:56.50
Rick
Pennies just like a exercise price like that's that's what would protect the tax liability.
01:37:03.19
tylerking
Okay I I'm not anywhere close to the point where I'm like how do I You know how do I Egg How do I get away from this business while having like good stewards of it take over but that's on my mind of a poison pill.
01:37:24.26
Rick
The the reality though is like if you did that to get whatever you did to get the um stock to be worth that from a 4.9 a valuation standpoint would also make it worthless to the employee. But.
01:37:45.57
tylerking
Well, ah it would be worthless to the employee as an investment but it could be worth it to them to it's sort of like an employee co-op at that point but the book literally talks about employee co-ops and it's like literally there's not a good way to give them that control without them having to pay more in taxes than the money than than they can.
01:38:00.56
Rick
Yeah, yeah.
01:38:22.66
Rick
What if you said what if you put like the ownership in a trust.
01:38:24.45
tylerking
But it did not address the fact that if ah, it's been I think it talked I don't know if it talked about that. Actually so you put in the trust and then just like you have some kind of bylaws for like employees get to vote for what happens in the trust. Yeah yeah.
01:38:45.96
Rick
You? Yeah yeah.
01:39:00.71
tylerking
I Think the reality is that the book didn't want to Confront the possibility that the founder doesn't walk away with all the value. There's like how do I get all the value and give it to employees and it's like yeah you can't you don't get the value. Ah, which is fine because if you if you're like retirement age and you've been running this business your whole career.
01:39:17.82
Rick
Yeah, yeah out.
01:39:40.90
tylerking
Hopefully you paid yourself enough during that time that you don't need to cash out. Yeah anyway I don't have any other topics on my list. You know.
01:39:45.76
Rick
Um, yeah, you got it? Yeah I've got nothing else either I'm I'm slow today. Um I I understand what it means now to be a parent when you need a vacation from the vacation. But I'll have more I'll have more on the next episode for sure as we start executing on some of these um growth growth experiments.
01:40:28.37
tylerking
Cool sounds good and we've got we're gonna do three weeks between episodes for the next couple right? because of my my travel schedule so the schedule will be a little funky for a while but then we'll go back to biweekly all right? see you.
01:40:41.24
Rick
Yep. Cool. All right see it other.