BACK TO READING CREDITS - EPISODE 4 - April Walker
PUB: 06.26.24
EPISODE TRANSCRIPT:
[MUSIC BED: Slow, heavy beat]
[INTRO]
[VO] Wes Jackson (WJ): Welcome to Back To Reading Credits – a new, 6-part audio-visual podcast from BRIC Radio celebrating the 50th Anniversary of Hip-Hop, and the people behind the curtain who drive the culture. I’m your host, BRIC President Wes Jackson.
[FADE MUSIC]
WJ: For episode four of Back To Reading Credits, we have April Walker in the house.
WJ: April is a fashion icon, entrepreneur, educator, and author whose work has been featured in Forbes, In Style, Essence, The New York Times, Drink Champs, Vogue, CFDA and many more I’m sure. Right, April? April is a pioneer in urban fashion. Her brand, Walker Wear, helped to create a multi-billion dollar industry known today as streetwear. She commanded millions in sales, and kicked in distribution doors for other’s working in urban fashion. April was one of the first designers to start a styling division working with clients like SHAQ, Wu-Tang, Hype Williams, and many more. Icons such as Tupac, BIG, Jay-Z, and Aaliyah have all donned her brand. When April is not sitting at the helm of Walker Wear, she is an author, educator, TISCH/NYU adjunct professor, contributor to Parson’s “Streetwear Essentials”, and producer. And all that is barely scratching the surface… I know about the NYU, the academic stuff. How long you been doing that?
[APRIL WALKER INTERVIEW - PART 1]
April Walker (AW): I was doing that, right after the pandemic. And most recent is Pensole Lewis College. I have to plug them because they are the first business and design HBCU school. And they are located in Detroit, and they're doing amazing work, with a strong lens on people of color. Of course. And really teaching them it's the first HBCU that is like "We are taking space and holding space for all elements of design, from apparel to footwear to interior design. And we have the masters teaching it." So like the guy that created the Jordan Shoe teaching the class, you know. So you actually get to see, ideate a foot wear piece. They teach me how to engineer and architect it. And then I get to see the product development. I go to the factory and watch it being created and then it goes in DSW. So now I'm actually seeing it for sale. And I'm a part of that whole process. So it's really revolutionary. And I'm very honored because they just named the apparel studio after me.
WJ: Shut up! What!
AW: So that's going to be at the next homecoming they'll announce it. But they, like, gave Ruth Carter the sample room. Mine the apparel room. Is just all...
WJ: You kidding me?
AW: All Black everything.
WJ: That's great. Well, we done jumped right into it.
AW: Right, I'm sorry.
WJ: No it's fine!
AW: I just I had to bring them up.
WJ: No, I think it's good. I've known April... I've known you for...
AW: Long time.
WJ: Long time, you know, and we we've done this before.
AW: Since Myles was a baby.
WJ: Exactly. Since my oldest was in a stroller and you had a, you and your dad had a shop on on Fulton Street. So I think... I'm so excited to be... I say that to say, we can get right into it. So I'm so excited to have you now back into the BRIC universe. You know, we were joking before we started here, you know, you was such a big deal. I was intimidated when I first, you know, saw you because of the things I said in the bio, right? This whole sector, you know, was created by you. I know, and you give props a Dap and and Karl Kani, but I, I love lifting you up because I want to make sure that people undersatnd, you know, this is the Mount Rushmore that needs to be remembered. You know, Walker Wear with, you know, Pac and Big. And we don't even talk about Mike Tyson had the trunks on and all of that. Again, you created a whole world and then you walked away. We'll get to why. And then you came back.
AW: Right. I think for me, there's different seasons in life, right? Like you're in a different season now. I understand that in that totality. I think I was there when I walked away. Right? And did some other things like the pet shop and other entrepreneurial ventures. But I also had a consulting company. So time was actually, history was being made. Like, we weren't in the digital era when I walked away. So I was seeing that change as it was becoming so much more about hype over substance. And for me, being somewhat of a truist, when I started being one of the first architects, that was painful to watch. When you see real designers with great, great fashion, and it was a lot of unsung heroes that weren't getting real estate space, because maybe there was a x line coming out by this artist that would be around for maybe 6 to 12 months, but they can make $10 million with them and then... next! Next. It was becoming that. More about, just like albums, like there was a time when music artists would be developed. And it wouldn't be about "You got this one hit wonder you better make it!" They would hang in with you for a few albums and develop you. So, the analogy to fashion was seeing that change.
WJ: Mmm.
AW: If that makes sense. So that all burned me out, along with being a woman and being one of the only women when I started. And I mean to date, we need more women, right? Like, and more women of color. But we have a lot more in position now, so I'm happy about that. But when I started just dealing with that and always... Trying to find your voice without sounding like the angry one in the room because you're not.
WJ: Mmhmm.
AW: But I think as a woman, it's changed. When I started, if you were strong, if you were independent, if you were all these things and had your own independent ideas, you were perceived as a word.
WJ: Mmhmm. Yeah, yeah.
AW: You know what I mean? And that word spread pretty quickly. And you just get tired of wearing that. Like, I just want to create, I just want to make, I just want to... Lean into the life I love and collaborate with other creators and make money while I'm doing it, but also serve the community. And that's always been my thing. So when I felt like it was changing and becoming something else and just being so heavy of just business without the creativity and all the other stuff, I was like, "I'm out, y'all got this!" You know? [laughter] And so that's really what happened. And I found in that, my love of nature, my love of... Just my calling, like, "Okay, that's why I'm here. This is what I'm supposed to be doing." Like, just spiritually, I feel like it was a chance for me to get to know myself while also being in alignment with God and what I'm supposed to be doing while I'm here. And that was able to connect me to come back.
WJ: Mmm, I see.
AW: If that makes sense.
WJ: Yup.
AW: Because I was doing other entrepreneurial ventures and I felt them, but, I started a consulting agency, which got started getting a lot of work just coming to me while I had the pet shop. So I was actually doing some work with, Tupac's family. They had Machiavelli. I did a lot of stuff from footwear with Ron Artest. There were so many things going on behind the scenes. And what I realized with clients, when you're consulting -- you might understand this -- they they pay you, but they don't listen all the time. And that frustration, if you're a creative consultant, it's like, "No, no, no, no, you're going to hit that brick... You're going to hit that wall! Why are you paying me and you're not listening?" And so I realized I had this brand equity sitting on the shelf with my brand. I'm feeling the bug again, creatively. And the digital era kicks in like, bam! Oh, I don't need a middleman. And if I put 1 thing out a year or 100, it's going to be all good. Or thousand or two thousand. I can go at my own pace, write my own story. And the other thing I saw was this disconnect. It's funny how technology is, because I think that it's connected us in so many ways and disconnected us in so many ways. And I saw the disconnection happening with this face to face and with our, our, our generation's understanding the history. And I say, "How can I share our history without being preachy?" So Walker Wear was that common denominator and then reverse mentorship. Me, I'm big into like tapping into what younger people are thinking about, and I felt like this is a way for me to be able to do that with my brand and give them gems and get gems at the same time. And just spreading the love with culture. And really, that's where I started being able to do what I loved again, but not worried about everything else.
WJ: You could feel, like, I've mean, knowing you so well, like, there's such a peace to it now. You're like, "I'm not bothered by that, that and that." Where you didn't know before. But as you know, obviously we can get into it. But I'm going to just for those who may not know the awesomeness of April Walker, we gonna rewind the clock. Talk to me about those formative stages...
AW: Formative years were very important. So I grew up as a jazz baby and we moved around. So I was born in L.A., people don't know. And then, my father had pursuit of music and jazz and love, and we moved around. So we moved from here to, actually South Bronx, from South Bronx, we went to Boston, we came back to Lower East Side and landed... Where we landed was in Bed-Stuy on Madison between Nostrand and Marcy, right next to the Old Boys High. And lived there, those were my formative years. I grew up at The East with the Uhuru Sasa, and went to school there actually. First grade. And that was big for me because getting to see like, Mtume and so many people, so many legends, from Gary Bartz to Sun Ra, it was so many people that played there and were a part of that from Roy Ayers on. And those were the relationships. Jackie McLean, all these -- Max Roach! All these people that I was around in my formative years where... You know, how jazz people dress, they dress differently, especially then, right?
WJ: Yeah no doubt.
AW: In the 70s was different. But my father felt a little left like, because that was his world. But because of that, I was exposed to a lot of different elements. And one of them was community very early on, because The East was really about that. And it was really about community building. So I think... and it was a fighting spirit, I think very early on. I grew up during the time of Vietnam War and, you know, Watergate scandal. And really seeing the disparity growing up in Bed-Stuy at that time, at that age, knowing that something wasn't adding up, you know what I mean?
WJ: Mmm.
AW: It wasn't. In some ways, life didn't seem fair. So I think that The East brought it home about building a sense of community for us, no matter what the world looked like. And how we needed to build together. And I think part of that spirit has always stayed with me.
WJ: The East, 'cause because I imagine some people may not fully get the reference. Just break that down for a second if you can.
AW: So the East was a community organization that existed, I think it was on Claver Place and it was right off of Fulton Street. And they actually down the street from The East was actually a health food co-op that you could go to before co-ops where a thing. But The East would celebrate community. They would do all kind of workshops. That's actually where the African Street Festival started. For many that don't know, that's where it started, but it started from these, these concerts that would go on right in the community, and people would come and they would play and they would have these jam sessions. And it was a great. But these were all tribe members that kind of had the same sense of community and then their kids and then, the offshoots of that. And then from The East, they started Uhuru Sasa, which was a school, and that school was about empowering us, about cooperative economics, about so many things, right? When you think about the principles of Kwanzaa, you can just think about The East, you know? And so that's the spirit we took with us, like each one to each one. But this is what it is, and we're more powerful together.
WJ: So back in those days... I guess when when did the fashion hit you? Was it an offshoot? Was it like...
AW: It was an offshoot. I was a hustler, like straight up and down. I was trying to figure out my life. By the time I was in high school in the 80s now, I was... My dad was now in R&B. So he managed D train. I remember I was dating someone, shout out to Rommel in Marcy projects. [laughter] And and in Marcy right next to Rommel was Jaz. Jaz lived in the next building, and he knew my dad was in the business. And so...
WJ: Oh, Jaz like Jaz-O?
AW: Jaz-O. He gave me his demo, and I gave it to dad. And then that's how dad started managing Jaz and Jay-Z. So then they, in high school, they grew up in my living room. So like it was a move from Boston and became, literally, I was in 1A, he was in 1C. Easy Mo Bee was in 430. I was in 420. So there were all these different connections coming from all these different ways. And then at the same time, I was sneaking in like Copacabana and Bonds and Broadway cause dad was managing D Train. So me being 16, 17, I'm in all these clubs getting all these energies from Studio 54 to, you know, Zanzibar... Insane. And I was a skate head. So I grew up in Empire. All of these things.
WJ: Mmm.
AW: You know, New York was like an outside museum at that time. And it was so much happening. It was electricity in the streets. And then it's always been a melting pot for fashion. But at that time it was all fleek, the 80s, you know. And so I think a lot of that stirred in me. And we gotta, we can't forget Hip-Hop. Hip-Hop in the 80s became commercially viable in a big way. And I had that hustling spirit because... I didn't want to work for someone else. I was real clear on that. I think my father was a guiding light in that, dancing to his own beat. I couldn't sing, I was around all these elements, and I always loved to dress. I didn't own that. Because I was doing everything from selling pots and pans to going to the fashion industry and buying linen suits and silk dresses and selling them wholesale. I was baby boy before baby boy in high school, [laughter] so I was always figuring it out. But by the time I was in college for communications and for business, and that's when I was hanging hard and I wentinto Dapper Dan's one night and I was like, "Okay, like, I get it!" Because Brooklyn boroughs were really different at that time.
WJ: Yeah, yeah. So so you'd go from Brooklyn all the way uptown to see Dap was a...that was a big thing.
AW: Oh, it was a thing. I was going to Apollo all the time. The Amateur Nite at the Apollo.
[CLIP: Unknown Barbershop Quartet at Amateur Nite At The Apollo]
Oooo weeeeeeee, Ooo-weee-ooo. Oooo weeeeeeee, Ooo-weee-ooo. Oooo weeeeeeee, Ooo-weee-ooo. [indistinct lyrics] [FADE OUT CLIP]
AW: Walking in Dapper Dan, I saw the Willy Wonka, but like, we don't have anything like that in Brooklyn. There was no place that was serving what we did. And we didn't dress like they dressed uptown.
WJ: Right, right, right.
AW: So I was like, I could do this. Like, this makes sense. And I had the customers by this time. My dad was working with Jay, Jaz. I knew everybody. Like, I was in the streets. And the hustlers! Like, like, literally at that time, the hustle scene was crazy. So that's how it started.
WJ: So is, so Dapper Dan, I've heard you say this before...
AW: He was a big part of the tapestry.
WJ: ...Seeing that show was what flipped the switch.
AW: He flipped the switch. I think prior to that, when I... Now I give my dad a lot of credit because I think that was first and foremost gave me the spirit and the gumption that you can do this, you know? And even when I started, I had taken corrections and fire department before this just to be safe, you know. And when I signed my lease, I got called for both and my mom cried and my dad was happy because she was married to a creative. So you know what that was like?
WJ: She she was worried for you.
AW: Right, I get it now. But, I was like "Imma go after this." And he was the only one that was like, "Yeah".
WJ: Yeah, yeah.
AW: You know, everybody else was like, "Are you sure you want to do this?"
WJ: Shout out, mom and dad. I don't know mom, but I seen dad. Yeah, he's...
AW: Yeah. both of 'em.
WJ: You need that. Just quick point of clarification, you said you went to school for like, business. That's high school, not college yet?
AW: College.
WJ: Yeah. Okay, so...
AW: I went to Bishop Loughlin and Brooklyn Tech.
WJ: Okay okay. Oh shout out Brooklyn Tech, up to block. So what's the first project because it wasn't... Walker Wear wasn't the first venture was it?
AW: No. So I signed my lease with Fashion In Effect at 212 Green Avenue. And I was a junior in college when I did this, and I decided I wanted to start. I didn't want to wait. I always say "Start before you're ready." Because that's what I did. I listened to Hip-Hop. I was following it hard. I was believing in it. I saw the tsunami and that energy coming, and I knew what it was because I was living it. But I felt like there weren't any examples. When I went to... At that time, my mom would take me to Sims -- shout out to Sims! -- For my outfits. I was buying Oscar de la Renta, Tahari, everything, but there was nothing that looked and felt like what I was listening to. Public Enemy, Run DMC, all of that. We were already putting together our stuff and ripping up our jeans and just bling bling-ing all the things. But I wanted to serve and I could give you that because I know what that is. So that's really how it started. And I think once we commit to it, the world will assist us in, in, in aspiring to give us what we need. And that's what happened. It became a magnet, that little shop. It was a hole in the wall. I literally was liquidators. I went to the fashion industry to get my machines. All the things I borrowed some of Daps' workers.
WJ: Oh ok.
AW: And this is how we started. Like clues, success leaves clues. I just looked at where it was already and literally stood outside of factories and, you know, did what we needed to do.
WJ: So just to be... So Fashion In Effect was your own design or were you...?
AW: It was all original. I was doing, it was a custom ateliers shop that really was doing everything from like sweatsuits, velour sweatsuits, denim with kente, puffer coats, all leather. And then we did tuxedos. We did all the ballers, like, Ballers Ball, we were fitting all the tuxes, all the sequins gowns, like we did everything. Easter Sundays. We had you.
WJ: Yeah. When does Fashion In Effect then turns into Walker Wear, what what year are we in?
AW: So. So in '86 I started out the house. That's what happened. And I was still in school. But I had the machines and I had the workers. And they were literally... And and my mom was like, "No, more [laughter] like, you got to get out." So that's how I got the shop in '87. In '87, I was officially a business. And then, what happened was, as Hip-Hop kept growing and I was starting to make... We started a design. We started custom-making. Our first artist was Shinehead, Shaggy and then Audio Two, right? And Audio Two said, "You can do our cover." From that cover -- we did that in tandem with Shirt Kings -- and from that cover, they came back like, "Hey, can you style this next video for us?" Knew nothing about styling, but I said "Yes."
[MUSIC BREAK: “I Don’t Care” by Audio Two]
[Milk] Yo, my name is Milk, when Milk is on the mic I say all the rhymes you MC's hate
I really don't care what you think or say
I gotta bust a rhyme in my own special way [FADE OUT CLIP]
AW: And from that I learned about styling. And we started a styling division. That opened the floodgates for me, for product placement and for me seeing other revenue streams and listening to my customers. They kept asking me... at that time everything was so fitted. You know, "[sung] Calvin Klein's no friend of mine!" like, that was a real thing! [laughter] So Calvin Klein owned the streets, pretty much. But what we were doing was seeing and listening to them saying, "We want more pockets, we want to be able to fit our hands in our pocket." Basically the stash pockets came from that period and we were like, one of those early ones to get bigger pockets, deeper pockets, more legroom, lower the crotch, more, what do you call bootleg now? Like, they wanted, they kept asking, "Can you make my pants so they could fit inside of my Timberland boot or right outside of it?" So, like those things we kept hearing over and over. And that's how the Rough and Rugged suit came about. And that was the first suit that I finally said, "let's try it."
WJ: Wait a minute, wait, we gotta rewind. I didn't realize… So, so those pockets were the stash...
AW: I mean, that's what people call Stash Pockets. Yeah, but we started oversized pockets. We were one of the first.
WJ: So that is... so that Rough and Rugged suit, that's iconic.
AW: Yes.
WJ: Big. Big cut.
AW: Yup. Oversized jacket. And at that time and still to this day, workwear is always really a big inspiration for me. And I thought if I could make workwear -- which was very functional, and utility wear almost -- If I could make that sexy, so to speak, and if I can make it fashion where it's less is more. Understated but still like, "Oh, that's nice!" Clean, where you could wear to work, but you could wear it at the club. You know, that's really what I was going for. And I wanted durability, you know, because Timberlands were so big at that time, you know, I wanted... I worked from the floor up more than anything.
WJ: No. It's interesting. You're giving me so many new thoughts. That work wear that you see, like a Carhartt, right, is workwear, which is now popular in different ways. We can almost rewind that back to Walker Wear.
AW: Yeah.
WJ: Y'all were... that was a dude going on the construction site.
AW: I would say Carhartt I would say Dickies. Those were big influences for me.
WJ: Dickies. Yeah. So Milk and then which I know you still still it's a shout out to Milk -- Milk Dee.
AW: Yup.
WJ: You know, great great brother. So he was your first artist. But then I'm thinking, you know, what was the first time that it hit me? Because I didn't know. When I think about Milk, I think about Shirt Kings, because they had that design. It was, the Run-D.M.C.. Right? Was it was it "Down with the King"? Did you do that one?
AW: That was later. I did that.
WJ: But that's much later, right?
AW: Yeah. So, so after Milk one day Biggie came in the store -- and this was before he was signed -- when I do the math, he must have been about 15 then. Yeah. So that's when we first met and he first bought something from Fashion In Effect and I found out he was an artist. I knew him from the hood. You would see him in the neighborhood. But, after that, he got a deal. When he got his deal with Bad Boy he didn't forget us.
[MUSIC BREAK: “Juicy” by B.I.G.]
Celebrating every day, no more public housin'
Thinkin' back on my one-room shack
Now my mom pimps an Ac' with minks on her back. [FADE OUT CLIP]
AW: And then that's how I met Diddy and that whole Bad Boy team. And I started working with, you know, all of those artists, you know, a lot of those artists. And then from that, you know, word spread because at that time we were all networking, So Heavy D.
WJ: Right.
AW: And that led me into Uptown, and I started working with a lot of the Uptown artists. It was just so incestuous at that time, and there weren't a lot of stylists. So it was like once I started Walker Wear, I would start getting calls.
WJ: And shout out, I know we've done other events that shout out Misa.
AW: Shout out to Misa. Right before Misa though, or around the same time, was another stylist that we don't talk about enough, and that was Sybil Pennix. And Sybil Pennix was actually instrumental at Uptown Records. And she actually did a lot of Jodeci and a lot of the work you see today. She's done Mary J. Blige. Some incredible work early on.
WJ: Yeah. I think this is so great because I think, you know, what we wanna do with this podcast is like these things that you don't realize. People don't understand, that look, for those artists, it was a sound in obvious ways, …
AW: Absolutely.
WJ: But they had a look! And and the fact that you dreamed, imagined that look. You know, I always talk about you and like Ralph McDaniels of like, if these two people did not exist...
AW: Absolutely. Ralph is instrumental.
WJ: ... This whole world that we are all eating off of -- I'm not gonna say wouldn't exist because it would have evolved a different way -- it would not look like this. So my question for you, when was the moment... Because I do remember all of those things and it was the Walker Wear, it was, I was looked at as elite, like, you couldn't get to it. I was in the Bronx, so coming down to Fashion In Effect seemed like another world. What was the moment when you, I don't know, somebody came into the shop or you style somebody, and you were like, "Yo, this is, this is it!" Like, "I am making a... I'm moving the needle with my designs!" Like, "I'm defining the culture." What was that? Or was there a one moment that you can point to?
AW: That were many moments like that for me to be honest. I remember I was at Kilimanjaro's, shout out to Kilimanjaro's Club, and I had on a custom made sequins gown. And you know, Run DMC is and will always be Run DMC [emphasized]. And and Jam Master Jay came up to me and asked me who made the gown, and I gave him a card and he was like, "Yeah, right. You didn't make that!", you know? And I was like, "I did! I do custom.", you know? And the next week I got a call from Run DMC, like, "You want to custom make our next..." Whatever. And that's how I started working with them and styling them. That was really a big moment. I remember the first day we went in the stores, there was, a chain store that was huge at the time called Merry-Go-Round.
WJ: Oh, yeah. Yeah.
AW: And one of their stores was in the Empire State Building. And I remember going in the store and seeing how they were selling our stuff. I didn't want to ask them. I actually found a sales rep there from them trying to sell it to me. And the way they were doing it, shout out to Dwayne, he was selling it. He believed in it. And I was like, "Okay." When I left the store, I came out the store and across the street there was a dude walking and he and on a Walker Wear a t shirt. And I was like, "yes!" [laughter] Because I didn't know him, it wasn't like this networking thing. So he just, we just really started getting out there and distributing our stuff in a national level. And me seeing the first person that was really big. I remember my sister calling me in Japan, like, "Yo, I just saw somebody wearing your stuff." Like, those are the moments that keep you going, you know? But I remember the first time Tupac called me and said, "Yo, I want you to do the wardrobe for Above the Rim".
[CLIP from “Above The Rim]
Birdie [Played by Tupac]: Fucking make sense to me now. All this time, people have been telling me Tom Shepard is so fucking raw. Too bad he started tripping when his friend died. He got all the fucking talent with no heart. I'm sitting here thinking, "A brother can't be this fucking weak." [FADE OUT CLIP]
AW: That was a moment, you know.
WJ: So did you know Pac? Or did he call you because you April Walker?
AW: No, I was styling him by this point. I remember meeting Pac on a few occasions. One was BWP and we kept running into each other while I was working. I remember I wore a velour custom suit to try to get into... I wanted to be an extra or whatever in the movie Juice. And Ralph McDaniels was a part of that, and he had a casting call. So I was like, "Imma wear, and if I don't get business, I'll get business." So that's what happened. I wore the suit and I didn't get the part, but a lot of people asked me for cards and he was one of them.
WJ: Ohhh.
AW: And so, so I don't know... around that time is when we really cemented, "Okay, we gonna work together." And so by this time I'd done "Holla If You Hear Me" and a few of his other style.
WJ: So he was really, he, that was like Pac…
AW: I met him, when he was a roadie for Digital.
WJ: For Digital Ungerground.
AW: And so watched his climb. And he was telling me his dreams. And once he started getting on, I met Karen and, you know, all his PR and started working with him.
WJ: Yeah. So you really caught him...
AW: At the crux of it.
WJ: Yeah, right when he was exploded as the icon, you know, that he is and was. But then even when like Wu-Tang was coming on, right?
AW: Right.
WJ: And I know you still have a relationship with Method Man at least.
AW: Yup. Yup.
WJ: So how did that... You were just the... You were the person everybody was calling after that, is that fair?
AW: Yeah and I think, whoever's listening to this, a big thing that still counts is relationships. What did you say when you started? Like, we've known each other a long time. Relationships, if you if you really hone your skills and really are about about that life and you can build will relationships authentically, they count. People know the authentic relationships. And I think that also being young, being a creative, not having a big budget, when you believe in someone before they hit fire, they remember that.
WJ: Yeah.
AW: And it really counts. So most of the artists we're talking about, I didn't work with them when they were who you know today. I worked with them before they became that. And I give my instincts credit, and probably growing up in the music business I knew was something was fire. Even if it made it or not, that didn't count. It's like, "Do you believe in it?".
WJ: Mmhmm.
AW: And I think that's the art first. And so all we had was each other because at this time, even though it was a multi -- becoming a multimillion dollar business, it was still at the point where people were saying, "Oh, Hip-Hop isn't gonna last, it's gonna go away." It's, you know, "Why should I buy your stuff?" You know, "Why should I pay this instead of paying for a Fila sweat suit?" So it was very debatable. So we had each other, and I think that's how we were supporting each other.
WJ: Yeah, I think that is so [sigh] just as I think about you, right, all of those people, you can still see, they still love you, they still rockin' the, you know, I still see Meth, you know, on the website when he's now gone to six levels up.
AW: Right? Oh, I'm so proud of him.
WJ: It still is like, "But I want a Walker Wear suit". It's still this very specific status.
AW: We were building these dreams and like, "I don't care what you say, we're gonna do this!" [laughter] You know?
WJ: Yeah, yeah, listen, I could go on. I do want to, you know, I think you talked about the sort of, I don't want to talk about the the ups and downs of Walker Wear. You kind of covered that beginning. I want to, you know, pushing sort of forward unless you want to get into it…
AW: Yes. Let's do it.
WJ: I think there's some lessons we can get into. But I just cannot like... Y'all wouldn't be wearing your jeans the way you wear them if was for this woman. I just like --
AW: Thank you.
WJ: It's a simple thought of like, "Y'all want wider legs." It was like, "Alright, bet, you get wider legs." It's so Hip-Hop.
AW: Yeah.
WJ: You know, to the way... And where Dap was very fancy and Gucci this and Gucci that I think you kind of went the other way.
AW: The other spectrum, like less is more.
WJ: That less is more.
AW: And Just like listening to those customers, if you listen to them, you can serve them, you know. And, and it's always about a pain point and a solution. Right? And I think that that was were I was lucky.
WJ: Yeah. So I want to talk to you a little bit about, you know, sort of like the broader April Walker empire, brand, you know, the person. Because you're riding high. You know, we talked about these things, a little bit of, the patriarchy, misogyny. All of a sudden you have a, you have a Black woman, a Afro-Latina woman shining. People don't aren't too happy about that. It comes out in different ways. I don't want to bring it down, but, but if you want to talk about, you know, what that, kind of how you walked away.
AW: Right.
WJ: But then you sort of came back even stronger. Now, you're this author and I want to talk to you a little bit about that resurgence, that sort of April Walker 2.0, the author, the advocate, you know, the mentor. What was the first book you wrote, though? What was the...
AW: “Walker Gems”.
WJ: Walker Gems.
AW: “Get Your Ass Off The Couch”.
WJ: [laughter] Yeah, get -- that's right! It with the donkey, it had the donkey on the cover. So that was the first one! And that one was really, you channeled a lot of those challenges in a positive way.
AW: Right. That time away was so enlightening for me to, like, not look at things as good or bad, but understand myself in the process and the part I played in all of it. And, and what was really important to me versus aspirations and ambition and all the things that we chase and success really, to me, is like a butterfly.
WJ: Mmm.
AW: The more you chase it, the more you can't ever catch it, because it's always going to be something. So you have to be fulfilled from the inside. And for me, that is like right now it's mind, body and soul and being in alignment with that. And that's a daily challenge. But it's one that I'm always intentional about. And I have good days and bad days, but I'm at peace with myself in a world full of distractions, and there are abundant distractions way more than when we grow up. But it's really... I think we're all living in our own dream. So for me, it was just, "What is your dream? And what do you want to accomplish while you're here?" And I think the biggest part of it is my character, right. So I had all of this, all of this richness inside of me from these experiences and knowledge and knowing what it takes and and knowing what burnout feels like. And knowing all of that, knowing how to take care of yourself by this point, but also knowing how not to take care of yourself to get to that point. And then being a Woman Of Color, like, understanding how to find your voice and utilize it and stand up, and express yourself for others that may not have that voice, but just you have influence so use that influence! Like, at least enlighten others to your experience. Because I'm sure if I experienced it, there are others that are experiencing it that might not have that bullhorn.
WJ: Yeah.
AW: So those were kinda some of the perspectives besides really wanting to serve, because I feel like God didn't bring me all this far for me to just put out my own light, and I was missing the creative element. I really was missing just being creative and building with other creators. And I wanted to do that worldwide.
WJ: Has it been longer this sort of April Walker, Walker Wear 2.0? It's been...
AW: It's been, it's been a minute.
WJ: Like 20 some-odd years, right, since the brand's been back? Or, right, give me my timeline.
AW: Not 20 years. I came back... Well it might be? It's getting close. So 2000 in totality, in 2027 it will make four decades. And one of the reasons I find, I'll be honest, I want the Walker Wear brand to stay alive and well, we have to redefine what success looks like. Because I think that too many people are chasing bags without knowing their reason. And I think that if we find our reason, the world would be a much better place and people would be much happier. And that is success. When you are doing... Planting the seeds you were here to plant. Like to me, that's it. And I think that if you do that, the money will find you.
WJ: Yeah.
AW: You know, you just have to trust that process. And it's hard. But that's that's faith, right? That's believing in yourself and something more. But that part and also, we don't have enough Black brands that are legacy brands. I can't really name one right now. Except for Karl Kani is still going? Shout out to Karl Kani, Cross Colours. There are some. But if we compare the level, the playing field, we're nowhere near leveling the playing field of the world. And it's a micro -- the fashion industry is a microcosm of the macro situation of our country, you know, and our world.
WJ: Tell me more... Why you say... give me more on that. Like how do you... Why do you say that?
AW: Do we look at Black and Brown people? Like, let's just start with Black Lives Matter. Like, that trended during the pandemic. Diversity and Inclusion is... The departments are closing everywhere now. That is over in their eyes. And it's it's not it's not the hype anymore, you know. And we -- I love us, but we spend over $1 trillion. Annually. Think about that. As consumers, we're the first to spend our money. And if we only spend $0.10 on every dollar in our own communities, we can employ everyone in our own community and uplift our communities. And it would be a healthy ecosystem. Just $0.10. Our dollar stays in our communities for six hours, where it stays in other communities for 30 days. We have a lot of work to do. That's part of it, you know? And then the other part is when not living... like I was that little girl, we're still not living in a fair society.
WJ: Yeah.
AW: So we have to do our part to make it fair. Like voting is a big part of it. Whatever you think about voting, our ancestors worked too hard for us not to be a part of that process. So you have to pick your poison sometimes. I hate to say it like that, but it's real. Like you got to be proactive. If you're not proactive, don't talk to me.
WJ: Don't complain without action. I do want to come back and I'm very wary of turning it, I don't want to turn sort of negative, but I wrote a note down that, you know, you were doing... there was a time when everybody was flourishing, right? When I was coming up and sort of admiring you, right, it was you, and Two Black Guys, and Karl, and Spike had his shop.
AW: Right!
WJ: But then the Rocawears, the Sean John, did they come and hijack the movement?
AW: Well, I think even before them. When I said about the micro and the macro, I think with any form of art, fashion, film, music, if it's a form of true self-expression I think once corporate America figures out, "Oh, we can make money off of this." They find a way to dilute it, to regurgitate it, and to sell it back to us with the price tag. And I think that that's what happened with Hip-Hop fashion, with urban fashion, with streetwear or whatever you want to call it. And don't get me wrong, we were in it to make money. But too often we find the originators of the forms of the self-expression, not participating in the equity for the long haul. Financially. We are not financially stakeholders, you know. To this day, there's still corporate looting happening every day from the originators and from people that are truists. You can go on... Social media is the best for that now. For people to say, "Oh, we can do this." Boom. And someone else is getting the credit. So is is a thing. It always has been.
WJ: Yeah.
AW: But to change the playing field would be changing the dynamics of a corrupt capitalist society. And I won't get too far into that.
WJ: [laughter] They’re gonna run us out the building.
AW: [laughter] I know.
WJ: I'm but I’m gonna go... I mean, I'm going to go there a little bit and ask a question I know there's noanswer to. But what's, you know, the solution, right? You see, you know, like a Pharrell at, you know, LV. That comes back to y'all and you.
AW: Right.
WJ: And I don't want to take any of that shine away, but this... Would you agree that there's another thing, we also have to invest? What's the solution?
AW: Right. So I think that there's not one solution, it's all solutions. I don't judge for Pharrell for going there. Like, that's his decision. And I hope he makes great strides there. But I don't think, I don't think three of us having those kind of positions is the answer. You know, I think that is a collective participation. So I think it's going to have to come from many touchpoints at once. So while others are sitting at the table, others need to build the tables. And I think that's the answer. And then we need to empower our own by supporting those tables in all aspects. And we need to build together. We need to be inclusive with each other and share information. Me getting screwed on in a deal, I need to pass that on to someone else so they know, "Okay, don't mess with this one. This is what it looks like." I've been through this experience. Share information, that's the best way to move ahead and progress.
WJ: Yeah, and I know you've been saying that for a while, "I'm not mad anymore! Like, look at me. I'm at peace. I'm just telling you that manufacturer, that distributor, you know, look out."
AW: Lessons.
WJ: You got to pass it along, or you gonna get hustled yourself.
AW: Or you gonna bump your head and you don't have to.
WJ: Yeah. Yeah, I think that's one of the greatest, you know, the greatest thoughts. And another thought I remember you said years ago is that you didn't... you almost stopped, I don't know if you still do this, you stopped wearing your own stuff exclusively when you at an event like this. And trying to find other designers.
AW: Right, I do. I'm very intentional about wearing Black or Brown designers because... So I think we have to get, I mean, I know that's like branding 101, I have on my stuff today I knew we were doing this interview, but I'll also support other Black designers because I'm in a different headspace now. It's it's not... I built my brand.
WJ: Yeah.
AW: I've become a multi-million dollar company and served the world and all those aspirations. And it it's funny, I was just talking to a friend today about... While it's important, none of it means anything to me now. It's it's interesting. You know, it doesn't. So my thing is how can I help as many people while I'm here on this limited time on earth. Because it's not it's not promised to us, you know? And so I feel like that's the work I'm supposed to be doing. And at any level, if I could wear somebody else's stuff and big them up so they can move up in the ranks, that's how we all win.
WJ: Yeah.
AW: You know? A win for all.
WJ: And, you know, you got to put walkerwear.com. Get your goodies.
AW: That's right, walkerwear.com. We have education-wise there's another course coming. I'm going to be doing some mentoring sessions online. You can look for that. I also have a project that I'm really excited about with BRIC coming. It's going to be a light insulation project, and that is going to be celebrating women in Hip-Hop, and it's going to have some really special guests involved. And you can see that through this summer down at Albee Square Mall. So definitely stay tuned for that announcement. I have a strong collaboration coming up with a company you would know, mainly you would know them for footwear. I can't say their name yet.
WJ: Okay.
AW: But that's really going to be dope. And it's empowering women. So there's a lot of great things coming down the pipeline. I'm working on a memoir, a doc, but it's legacy stuff and serving others. And, I'm in a good space, and I'm definitely telling us all to take care of our minds, our bodies, our soul. Movement is medicine. So move your bodies daily and take time for you. Like, nothing counts if you're not good.
WJ: Yeah.
AW: So save your mental space.
WJ: Before we, sort of start to wrap up, we were talking about the new exhibit at the Museum of Natural History, which you're in.
AW: Yes.
WJ: So, you know, talk to us a little bit about that.
AW: Shout out. I'm really proud of that exhibit because it is a celebration of history of Hip-Hop through jewelry and telling our stories. And it really... it's done well. it's basically been manifested through the Ice Cold Jewelry book. And that is through Vikki Tobak. So shout out to Vikki Tobak for bringing this all in. Coach K, there are a lot of people involved in it. Slick Rick was a senior advisor on it. Mandy, Bev Smith I know you guys know Bev. So it's a good crew. And then there are others. But, shout out to the Museum of Natural History, the American Museum of Natural History. It's a profound statement for this history, our history, to be there, which it should as a part of American history. But is in the gems and stones section, and it has amazing jewelry with amazing moments in time that these artists have owned and, and I'm privileged and I'm very honored to be one of 65 pieces that are in the exhibit. So everyone should go see it. It's there until January of '25.
WJ: So I got my last question before we going to play a little the game of "this or that". So I'm starting... somebody out there listening or watching is in their home cutting and sewing. And they're like, "Okay, I want to be, you know, I want to follow April's footsteps." Outside of anything that you've mentioned, what's maybe the one thing that I should be thinking about that you find most entrepreneurs in fashion, or anywhere else maybe don't think about?
AW: Finance.
WJ: Finance.
AW: Study your money and understand numbers. I think that most entrepreneurs and creators have great ideas and romanticize the vision without really understanding the business. So I mean... Finance is a part of the business. And you can say you have a business plan. But if you really not intentional on knowing numbers and understanding where you want to go, and benchmarks with planning, with projecting, with reality versus where you want it to be, being able to look at a financial statement, a end-of-the-year, a balance sheet, you know what I mean? A P&L. You know, all of these things are to be learned, but the earlier you can learn them -- and it starts with financial stewardship with thyself. You know, I think that's the first step for any of us to really learn how to save and invest more than we spend.
WJ: Did you scale up Waler Wear pretty quickly once you started having these media hits and did that financial piece kind of creep up on you?
AW: So yeah, so the first year we really came out the gate hard with Fashion In Effect, even. Like it just was the right time. It was explosive with Hip-Hop. And then we had the great relationships and the product spoke for itself. So I think all of those things counted. I didn't have... I didn't know business like I know it now. You know, that's been a learned experience of wearing many hats. But I'm a fast, I'm a student always. So I remember the first few contracts I had, I've kept... Every contract I've done, I tried to keep. And then combed through it, learned the lawyers language, learned why I needed... Certain clauses are going to be in all these contracts, certain things you're going to see over and over. And then you start knowing. You start asking like, you know, "Why isn't this here? I need minimums. Why am I not having this? I need an escape clause. I need a parachute clause. I need these things." You know, you get burned once and then you learn next time, "Let's put this in the contract.”
WJ: No doubt.
AW: You know, like, so it's just it's it's part of it. It's a process. But the more you can be a student and learn from others, I encourage everyone to do that.
WJ: Yeah. Amen to all of that. So we like to do this thing at the end.
AW: Let's do it.
WJ: You know, before we go, you'll have your chance to say your last words. But like the old school, "this or that", right? So you pick one and build on it. And this is interesting, which do you prefer behind the scenes or in front of the mic?
AW: There was a time when I would stay behind the scenes always, But I can do either now.
WJ: Yeah.
AW: Because I feel comfortable now.
WJ: Because now you're much more in front. You were almost like a bit of a mythical character.
AW: Yeah on purpose.
WJ: You just saw the logo. I never, I can't even remember the first time I saw your face.
AW: I did that on purpose. That I was being a woman in a man's world, you know? But I think I was very intentional about that. But I think now, the other element is now we're all our own brands, whether we realize it or not. If you're working for someone or not, like, it's difference of you staying at home on a Friday or working late. So you need to know how to negotiate your own brand and stand for your own brand and build your own brand. And so in that, I have to be in front of the cameras more, you know what I mean? Because Walker Wear isn't my only tap dance. You know, I'm doing other things too.
WJ: Yeah. It's so funny. I mean, I think that's the whole thing of why you're here is, you know, you're out there advocating for yourself in such an aggressive, and I mean that in the best possible way, like a pointed way, when that wasn't always the case. That's true evolution.
AW: And I think that it's important for us to show a younger woman you can be confident and have humility at the same time. They can live in the same house. But advocate for yourself more than anybody else.
WJ: Okay, my next one... As you are such a visual artist in many ways, album art or videos?
AW: Album.
WJ: Album! Why? Tell me why.
AW: Because I'm old school, because it's just like to see... Like, are we talking about... Is it coming to life like, I'm going to hold it? I'm always going to want to hold albums. [laughter] Like that come from that school. I mean, I love video too. But there's nothing like real books, real albums, like tangible items. And to me, I like seeing ideation come to creation and physically hold it, you know?
WJ: Makes sense. You're a tactile person for obvious reasons. Even though you get much more playing time with the video.
AW: Right. I love the metaverse and all of the other things and videos. I love that too. But as an artist, I'm always going to say, "I want to see and feel it."
WJ: Alright, my last question: what's your favorite Walker Wear piece that you made. Like, what's that... Is there one joint that you're like, "That one is the one that, if I had to buy, if I had my last dollar, that's the one I would I would buy."
AW: I can't say one. C'mon that's such an unfair question. As a creator! No!
WJ: I know it's unfair on purpose! I'll switch it up. What's maybe the one piece that, you like, that maybe everybody doesn't know, right? Because you've seen the Jam Master hat, the "Here's this one joint I made that didn't get on the video. It didn't get in the stylists, but that was the one that I thought was going to pop." There's got to be something you gave to Pac that you thought he was going to kill, and he chose something. No?
AW: No, because you know why? He was so heavily involved in his process that it was almost like a collaboration, outside of him coming and saying something like, "Yo, I want that", you know? So that, and and I worked a lot with the artists. I've been very lucky in that sense. But what I would say is... What I have more right now is the next thing coming. And I'm talking about this print.
WJ: Oh.
AW: And the print is almost going to become like our trademark, you know, like, you see, the WW of Walker Wear? This print, and it's done in a different color, is catching on fire now. But it for me is personal because it tells a whole story. It's legacy, it's the roses, it has our logos in it. It's actually has a bit of technology with the pixelation. It's so many things happening. It's graffiti to me. So it was very personal, done at a very personal time. And, and my middle name is Rose. My grandmother's name is Rose. There's a lot of hidden stories and gems in this actual pattern that was made in collaboration with Phil from Brooklyn Combine -- shout out to Phil.
WJ: Oh ok! They collaborated on this piece right here?
AW: On this actual print. And we have them in Sweatsuits. We have them... Like a lot of men are now wearing the sweatsuit. So I'm just really excited about where this is gonna go.
WJ: Ever the business person to be like, "The flyest thing is what I got on right now that you can go to walkerwear.com and buy." [laughter] I see I see how you do it. I see April very smart. So listen, April, thank you so much for coming. I want to give you just the last word. Anything we didn't, we missed. Anything you want to, you know, push. You know, I had in my notes to talk about Pensole, But you hit there. Anything else that you got cooking that you want to drop on us?
AW: I've talked about education. I've talked about collaboration. I've talked about mentorship. I've talked about Walker Wear. I think the only last thing I'm going to shout out is I have a young dream team that I'm shaping with the new blueprint that will be unveiled soon. So I want to shout out all of my young teammates that have really been waiting patiently. It is your time to rise. We are about to do the damn thing. [FADE UP MUSIC BED: Slow, heavy beat]
WJ: No doubt. That's what's up. That's what's up. Well, I want to thank April Walker for coming through. You know, such an inspiration back then, you continue to be. And I'm gonna go buy some joints later on today. Put my money where the mouth is.
AW: I appreciate that, and thank you for always driving the culture forward.
[CREDITS]
[VO] WJ: This episode of Back To Reading Credits was produced by Khyriel Palmer, Emily Boghossian, Chris Torres, Gabrielle Davenport, and Antoine Hardy. with help from Elyse Rodriguez Aleman, Jose Astorga, Jonathan Ortiz, Zak Sherzad, and Shirin Barghi. Our audio engineer was Onel Mulet, and our videographer was Raynita Vaughn.
[VO] WJ: Back To Reading Credits is hosted by me, Wes Jackson. The show is taped at BRIC House in Downtown Brooklyn. Check the show notes for links to April Walker’s work.
[VO] WJ: If you like what you hear or think we missed something, comment, like, share and subscribe, and follow [at] BRIC TV on twitter and instagram, for updates.
[VO] WJ: For more information on this and all BRIC Radio podcasts, visit www.bricartsmedia.org/podcasts