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A show about cameras, creativity, and the weird shit your brains do while you're trying to make something.
Together, we're exploring photography for all levels — asking the silly questions, sharing the expert knowledge, and digging into what it actually takes to grow as a human being and as an artist.
EP 06 The Trap of Perfection
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Intro
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Casey (she/her): and I was almost like wanted to like block the screen, like not let him look at them 'cause they're not perfect enough, and they're just nice.
so it's a little bit reassuring to know that photographers at every level, this is a thing. This isn't just like a beginner thing.
Casey (she/her): So Amy, I'm curious, today's episode is about perfectionism, and how many photos have you taken and, like, never shown the world?
Amy (she/her): I definitely don't have enough fingers and toes to, to even begin. Like, I don't think I have enough fingers and toes to count the number of hard drives that have photos on them that have never seen the light of day beyond
Casey (she/her): Oh my gosh.
Amy (she/her): once.
Casey (she/her): Okay, well that already makes me feel better
Amy (she/her): yeah, I mean, part of it is I'm, I'm a, a bit of a, a hard drive hoarder. I tend to just go buy another hard drive instead of,
Casey (she/her): Right
Amy (she/her): you know, things and, and try to do that with my, my bird photography. I try to the number of hard drives down to a, a manageable amount and have so far not managed to do that.
But, um, yeah.
Casey (she/her): Okay
Amy (she/her): now in this day and age of, of hard drive prices going up, it's-- I,
Casey (she/her): That might change
Amy (she/her): going, to repurpose some of these." So
Casey (she/her): Yeah.
Amy (she/her): change. But no, I, uh, I c- I could not even begin to tell you the number of photos that I have that have never seen the light of day.
Casey (she/her): And this is one of those realities of photography that I love to hear from somebody that's such an experienced photographer, because I already have this growing collection of things that I'll probably never show anybody 'cause they're not perfect. Like, even this morning I was playing in Lightroom and my husband came in to say bye before he left for work and saw the, the pictures that I was working on, and I was almost like wanted to like block the screen, like not let him look at them 'cause they're not perfect enough, and they're just nice.
Um, so it's a little bit reassuring to know that photographers at every level, this is a thing. This isn't just like a beginner thing. But we're gonna talk about this today a little bit more from the beginner angle, or at least obviously I'm talking about it from the beginner angle, and like the nervous system side about it, what to do about it, how do we tackle this perfectionism so that we can get out of our own way and go take more pictures.
And then I'm definitely gonna be curious to kind of hear from a seasoned pro how you've navigated this, how you navigate this yourself to this day. So I think one of the first parts we talk about is why do we hide our photos? Like, what is happening when we're getting trapped in this cycle of perfectionism and not wanting to show up, not wanting to share our photos, and things like that.
So I think the number one thing that I... is, that's in my brain, like literally this morning take, looking at these photos, is that it's not good enough yet But I don't... But yeah, and also good enough for who? Good enough for what standard? Like,
Amy (she/her): Yes
Casey (she/her): I remember sending you a photo one time for one of your critique groups, and you asked me kind of for the context of, like, knowing this is, like, a beginner photo, kind of asking me the context.
I'm like, "This is not, like, a competition. This is not for a magazine cover. This is literally just I took this po- picture. What do you think of it?" And I think that's such an important distinction of, like, knowing what's good enough
Amy (she/her): Yeah, good enough is such a hard... I, I know we use it a lot. I know it gets thrown a lot of, "Oh, don't get caught up in everything, and it's good enough. Good enough is good enough." And
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): I, I struggle because there is no standard for good enough either. I mean, there's no standard for perfection, and there's no standard for good enough.
And so, um, I think some better, you know, better criteria, better definitions, oh, me, definitions,
Casey (she/her): Yeah.
Amy (she/her): are probably in order.
Casey (she/her): Right
Amy (she/her): we can talk through some, you know, what that looks like. Um, and I don't have any absolute answers, but at
Casey (she/her): Right
Amy (she/her): better than, "Well, just post the damn photo," because that's not helpful.
Casey (she/her): Right. So let's do that then. Let's talk a little bit about kind of like how you would tackle that with someone, 'cause my brain gets stuck in like... I mean, the thing I work with when I'm talking with people and like coaching about what's good enough is usually it's writing or how much work you're performing or something like that.
It's something that either we can put a number on or it's something where like it's adjusting your expectation of like what you think you should deliver versus what's like expected of you. And so I feel like I'm struggling to quantify this in art or in like photography
Amy (she/her): Sure. Well, say what you just said, that second one. Say that one again
Casey (she/her): struggling to figure this out in terms of art or, like, creativity
Amy (she/her): No, back up. So when you're working with people with nervous system stuff, you said
Casey (she/her): yeah.
Amy (she/her): you focus on two things.
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): You, you can repeat both of them if you want, but the second one, I want you to repeat the second one. Do you remember what it was?
Casey (she/her): quantifiable? You, you'll learn that my memory vanishes the second it comes out of my mouth.
Amy (she/her): know. I know. I have the same problem.
So when I'm working with people on nervous system stuff, when we talk about what's good enough, we're often looking at, like, their standards versus what's actually expected of them or something where it's kind of quantifiable and we can, like, adjust the expectation
Okay, so expectations I think is a really good point to jump off on in terms
Casey (she/her): Okay
Amy (she/her): how it applies to photography. because, uh,
“Good Enough” is a Moving Target
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Amy (she/her): so the very first time I taught a photography course, the very first lecture I wrote was about setting realistic expectations,
Casey (she/her): Mm-hmm.
Amy (she/her): was about, uh, realistic expectations for when you're shooting. Um, it didn't get too much into the, the post-processing editing side because these were people coming with, with no knowledge of even how to start that. Um, but I think defining it has to be, has to be done because,
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): um, a person like me who has been doing this for a very long time have very different expectations about the level of work.
So part of the reason why my hard drives are really full of pictures that'll never see the light of day is because I'm really super picky.
So I've been going to Alaska in February for about five years, and the first time I went, I filled up a hard drive there are so many photos on there.
And I tagged a lot to keep. Um, so I, I sh- certainly got rid of a, a huge number, but I tagged so many because I had never done it before and because I thought they were all amazing. No, not really. I- but I, I thought a lot of them were amazing, and they felt like once in a lifetime t- types of shots. And over the years as I've been going back for, I think I've...
four or five times now, it's crazy, I refine what I'm looking for, and I refine my expectations of what define- what is a keeper shot. And this year, this past February, I went and I had a list. I had made myself a list of,
Casey (she/her): Oh
Amy (she/her): do the standard shots
Casey (she/her): Mm-hmm
Amy (she/her): as much. I mean, there's something about the, just the kind of standard eagle catching a fish type shot that is very relaxing in some ways, which sounds
Casey (she/her): Yeah.
Amy (she/her): Um, but I wanted to push, I wanted to push myself and do something a little non-standard, and so I had made a list of things I wanted to try. Um, for instance, one of them being slow shutter speed and getting kind of motion blur, um, like deliberate, not like, oh, the wing tips are a little bit blurry because my s- shutter speed was a little too slow.
Not like
Casey (she/her): Right.
Amy (she/her): of motion blur, that's, that's like by accident. I wanted an intentional motion blur, like
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): lots of streaky lines. Okay. So my hard drives these days, uh, the, the number of keepers, um, are v- are very small. The percentage of keepers is just this tiny, teeny little bit. And then the number of those that I actually go through and do all my post-processing and post online becomes even smaller.
Casey (she/her): Right. Okay
Amy (she/her): the expectations need to be, when I'm starting out, I'm gonna be amazed at myself, hopefully, but I
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): know that this is not as good as I'm going to be.
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): with work, I'm, I'm gonna be better in the future. So it's okay
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): a bunch, and then you learn a bunch because reps, right? We ta-
Casey (she/her): Yep. Yep
Amy (she/her): but the, to look forward a little bit and go, " I know that th- the repetition of, of what I'm doing is going to improve my skills," and
Casey (she/her): I want.
I've noticed even in the short time that I've started taking photos that I'm keeping less and less, or I'm pulling less and less into Lightroom to even play with post-processing. Like, same, that first few rounds I was like, "These are all amazing."
And then the photos I was taking yesterday, I took, I don't know, 300, 400 photos yesterday, and I think eight made it all the way to Lightroom to even play with. And I'm like, "Okay,
Amy (she/her): good.
Casey (she/her): that's some personal growth." And, and more time looking at things and assessing things in the camera even than I think I have in the past and kind of moving the camera around and playing with shots.
So yeah, so I think there's that element of, like, what's good enough will shift over time, and that can be everything from the number of photos you're taking to begin with. Like, the photos I was taking yesterday, the setup I have, those, the hummingbirds, um, you probably would've taken half as many photos just because you have more experience with birds.
These little fuckers are fast. Half my problem was just trying to figure out, like, how to grab a bird that's moving so quickly. And like, so like, even that, like I... There's an element of, like, perfectionism in the shooting process, what's enough of you just have more experience of watching these little critters move versus I'm still figuring out the camera and just pointing at the bird and hoping for the best a little bit.
So the evolution of that
Amy (she/her): that's valid. That's
Casey (she/her): Yeah.
Amy (she/her): do start, and
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): know, again, mirrorless, or not just mirrorless, but digital in, in general has made it so much easier compress that learning curve
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): we aren't spending so much money on film and processing, and even just the wait time.
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): take 36 pictures and be like, "I have no idea if anything came out."
And then you'd have to take them to the lab and get them ... You know,
Casey (she/her): Yep.
Amy (she/her): be a week or two. So,
Casey (she/her): Right
Amy (she/her): um, all of this, the learning gets compressed because of the technology,
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): it still is a learning curve and, and being realis- realistic about the fact that you are just at the end of that, of that learning curve
Casey (she/her): Yeah.
Amy (she/her): good.
And, and to impose, you know, to, to beat yourself up about that is using a lot of energy that could be put towards analysis of your photos and getting
Casey (she/her): Right
Amy (she/her): and doing the reps and improving. it's, it's wasted effort
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): you know, for gettin', getting on yourself about being a beginner,
Casey (she/her): Yeah.
Amy (she/her): I
Waiting for the Perfect Shot
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Casey (she/her): No, that makes perfect sense. Yeah, and I, and I think too with this then also, and like the conversation about reps, like I think another thing that's probably holding beginners up is like waiting for the perfect shot. Like I caught myself doing that a couple of times yesterday where I had an idea in my head and I like set up for it, and then I was like not clicking the button 'cause it wasn't quite right.
And I'm like, "Ah, it's digital." Like
Amy (she/her): It's
Casey (she/her): down that... And as long as you hold that button down, it's gonna keep taking pictures. So grab a big burst and we'll sort it out from there, you know? And so that, I think, I think that's another trap I could see people easily falling into when it comes to the perfectionism, is waiting for the perfect shot.
So I think it's interesting the idea of you going to Alaska, having kind of a shot list that you want, versus somebody who hasn't done a bunch of this yet. Like go get the really standard bird catching a fish. Go get the really crispy shots. Go, go do these things to learn them. And also then there is a time to progress, or a dream shot that you want or that you're already envisioning.
Doesn't mean you can't have that on the list, but don't wait for just that shot. Because in my case, like my skills are not on par enough yet to be waiting for the perfect shot. I'm gonna miss all the shots if I wait for the one shot.
Amy (she/her): Well, and oftentimes the one shot is like hard level, right?
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): keep coming back to this, you know, idea of, of levels like game, like in games.
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): start with, start with level one and take the easy shots.
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): as you take those shots, then you learn to ... I mean, we're talking about bird photography today evidently, b- which is great 'cause we've done a lot of dog stuff, so
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): about bird photography. D- birds are hard, so need to kind of work up your, work your way up the difficulty level.
Casey (she/her): Mm-hmm.
Amy (she/her): start with the easy shots, and
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): watch their behavior, and you learn their behavior, and you learn to anticipate what's gonna happen.
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): one of my favorite things about bird photography and knowing when they're gonna take off, especially the big birds or the raptors, is that they poop before
Casey (she/her): Yeah.
Amy (she/her): off.
Casey (she/her): Yeah.
Amy (she/her): lighten the load, and then they take off. And they don't always take off, or
Casey (she/her): Yeah.
Amy (she/her): be another five minutes.
Casey (she/her): Right.
Amy (she/her): but you're sitting there holding the,
Casey (she/her): Like,
Amy (she/her): half
Casey (she/her): right. Yeah. Time, time to pay attention. Yeah.
Amy (she/her): right.
Casey (she/her): Yep
Amy (she/her): But there are so many other things you can be doing and learning as you're sitting there, you know, either waiting for a, a shot that you want or just learning a new, a new subject or a new style or a new whatever.
Casey (she/her): Yeah. Like yesterday I ended up with the hummingbirds. The shots that I kept from the day are all the birds sitting in a bush, I wanted to get the flying shot 'cause a hummingbird in flight is stunning. But my setup where I'm trying to take the picture of them isn't ideal. They move so damn fast. They move relatively unpredictably and like, so like I did get some shots that are not great, and I, they're, couple of them were by complete luck.
but I did that, shifting that expectation of like, great, okay, this is the first day I've ever shot hummingbirds.
And then as I watch them more over the coming weeks, whatever, then maybe we move into a better setup to, or understand their little movements. Like, that's what I was watching for, is like some birds I also watch, um, they kind of like scrunch before they take off. There'll be like a shift in their body position or in their wing position before they...
And I'm, so I'm like watching this hummingbird sitting on this branch and I'm like, "What's your tell?" Like, I'm trying to figure out like if I can see when you're gonna take off.
Inspiration vs. Self-Judgment
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Casey (she/her): So I think this brings up a good, great point too, and this is the pros and cons of social media and having access to seeing so many great photographers is getting in the trap of measuring my day five against your year 25.
Amy (she/her): 10 years of birds.
Casey (she/her): Okay, 10 years of birth, yeah. Like, that's not real fair to do to myself.
Amy (she/her): No
Casey (she/her): And so I, I, and, and like this is, and I think this is, uh, I mean a bigger conversation about social media as a whole. This is the pros and cons of social medias. You can see what the potential is, and creative ideas and what's out there, and like things to strive for. And also if you're not careful, it's really easy to look at that and then look at the photos I took today or yesterday and be like, "Ugh, I suck.
This is all garbage. I quit. Sell the camera, give up." Like, navigating that balance of inspiration versus like self-judgment
Amy (she/her): A- and I, I hate to admit this, I don't, my brain doesn't go to, "Oh, I suck. I'm gonna give it up and sell the camera."
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): never has that been... And I, I don't know why. It's just the way
Casey (she/her): Hmm.
Amy (she/her): wired.
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): always looked at other photos and used them, uh, uh, I mean, inspiration, yes, but more than that. I analyze them.
I'm looking at what, how did they capture this? What did they do that I'm not doing yet? Um, how do I get that super creamy blurred out background that is in Alan Murphy bird photos?
Casey (she/her): Right
Amy (she/her): you know, how do, how do I do that? I mean, that ended up with, look, workshop. Sign me up.
Casey (she/her): Exactly. Go learn from the guy who's doing the thing that you wanna learn how to do.
Amy (she/her): Exactly. So I think, I think if you stop with, " Oh, that's so great," and, "Oh, that makes me look bad," you're missing the point of looking at other people's work.
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): y- you're not using it as inspiration, you're using it as self-judgment, and that's, that's not inspiration.
Casey (she/her): No.
Amy (she/her): And I think, I think this is such a great thing. Like, I love that you naturally, your brain isn't wired that way. And this is a bit like, I also think this is a learned skill. This is a thing, I used to be so much harder on myself than I am now, and I'm getting better at that curiosity element of it. So like, when I'm looking, whether it's my own photo or someone else's photo, what could be better about mine?
Casey (she/her): What do I like? What do I not like? What's different between mine and this person's? And can I figure out how to... What is that skill? What is that technique? How can I build backwards to create that for myself? And so yeah, it's that, that... I lost my train of thought there. But yeah, it's that element of, of just practicing and like teaching it to be inspiration.
And then like my side note to this is as a beginner, and I would imagine maybe even as an expert sometimes, it c- there are moments where it gets frustrating. Like I wanted to achieve something specific. I had an idea in my brain yesterday, and the birds were not cooperating and did not get the memo, and I was getting annoyed.
And so I made a rule with myself. Years ago, I ran a woodworking business, and I made a deal with myself that I cannot woodwork when I'm frustrated. I cannot woodwork when I'm angry, because when you are angry, you are not paying attention, and when you are working with power tools, that's how you lose your fingertips.
And so I've gotten really good at like, "Oh, I'm getting frustrated. This thing isn't fun." Walk away. And so I did that yesterday. I was getting frustrated. I couldn't quite get the shot that I was envisioning, and so I went and took a lunch break, and I came back. And so like being able to like see where you're at also, not just in the comparison of looking at other people's photos, but also like what's happening while you're shooting.
'Cause short of getting paid for it, most of this should be enjoyable. And even if you're getting paid, you should probably find a format that you enjoy doing.
Amy (she/her): Right. I, I think just out on your own doing it, it's easy to walk away, take that break, walk away. Where it can get a little more complicated is when you're in the context of a workshop,
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): it's a workshop for a subject that you really want, um, you can't just, you know, to dock the boat and let you off because
Casey (she/her): Right
Amy (she/her): So I, I think thinking through how do you handle frustration in that kind of an environment when you have, when you have goals, right, in
Casey (she/her): Yeah.
Amy (she/her): letters, um, and, and it's unreasonable to walk away. Um,
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): and I- to me, what I do when I can't get something to work, then I know that what I need is to look at it on the computer. I mean, there's only so much I can tell by looking at it on the back of the camera. So then I
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): that, okay, this is gonna require some intensive time looking at the photos so I'm gonna step it back a level in difficulty, and I'm gonna, gonna go back to the easy shots and
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): the, the time of, you know, for you taking, taking the perched shots.
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): some reason why you couldn't walk away from, you know, the setup yesterday, take it back a notch. let
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): let go of what your, your goal is, let go of what you're trying to accomplish, and, and just, you know, take it back to the easy stuff, 'cause I still enjoy the easy stuff. So it
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): wasted time if I'm out there in a boat with a bunch of eagles, and I can still get really cool shots, even
Casey (she/her): Right.
Amy (she/her): get the shot I
Casey (she/her): The one. Yeah.
Amy (she/her): So
Casey (she/her): a really great point. I so far have not been in situations where I can't walk away for a minute or I'm not--
Amy (she/her): Mm-hmm
Casey (she/her): like, so far everything I've done is there's a relatively limited, like, timeframe to the shooting that I'm doing. And so, like, great, I've got two hours, and then I'm done with this for the day anyways or whatever.
So, like, yeah, the eagles, you're out on the boat kinda all day. You can't get up and walk away. Like, it's okay to, like... Also, I think it's okay, yeah, back, I love the idea, like back, back to the simple stuff and just get some shots that you, you can enjoy. Or, like, set the fucking camera down for five minutes, take a deep breath, and just look around.
Like, in your case, like these Alaska trips, like it's A- it's Alaska. Like,
Amy (she/her): Right
Casey (she/her): look outside of the camera for a second and just take a minute. But, like, that point's being still, like, don't let the frustration drive the decision, 'cause you're probably just gonna keep getting more frustrated, and then it takes longer to k- like, you get more dysregulated, and it takes longer to come back from that.
So, like, when you catch that, do the assessment. Is this a setup problem? Is this a vision problem? Is this, like, skills that I'm lacking? Is this just not the day for it? Okay, what can I change? What can I fix? What can't I fix? And kind of adjust accordingly.
Amy (she/her): Yeah. I think you have to understand what that process is bef- when you're not dysregulated, right?
Casey (she/her): Oh yeah. Yes
Amy (she/her): if you try and just, if you're in the moment and you haven't thought through,
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): gonna do if I get frustrated,
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): you're not gonna come up with it in the middle of your frustration.
Casey (she/her): Yes. Yeah
Amy (she/her): and even, so even that is a skill of have to think about these things in advance
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): in the moment they're not gonna come to me.
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): obviously that has broad, broad application, but in photography that is, you know, being able to kind of project outwards and, and see what, what could happen either based
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): experience or, know, understanding the situation you're in,
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): to be able to have that fra- that, the wherewithal to h- go through that is, is a pretty big skill.
Casey (she/her): Yeah, true. Yes. And my short version of this, like, yes, be thinking about this stuff ahead of time. Look at things that have worked and not worked in the past. Also, like, in the moment, if you're struggling to, like, remember and you're, like, frustrated and you're like, "What do I do?" Get curious. Like, I always try to replace frustration with curiosity because it's very hard for both to exist in the brain at the same time, because they're kind of counter to each other.
Frustration, we're slamming against the wall trying to push forward. Curiosity, we, like, take a step back and look at the wall. And so even if you're not sure what the process is, like take a step back and
Amy (she/her): That is a wall.
Casey (she/her): is a wall, right?
Amy (she/her): the image that came to my mind was, was priceless. So I wish I could like, you know, draw it or something. But
Casey (she/her): But, like, is it a brick wall? Is it a short wall? Is it a tall wall? Like, I, you... To, like, really, yeah, go after that one. But it's that curiosity thing, and then taking kind of checking in. Yeah, is this... Is it the weather? Is it my gear? Is it... Look, both of us are neurodivergent. I sometimes get frustrated because of the clothes I'm wearing.
So it might not even be, like, like the idea of, like, trying to shoot in Alaska where I'm wearing, like, extra warm, like, clothes or I've gotta wear, like, a rain jackets. That is so overstimulating to me that it's gonna be hard for me to focus on the photography and stay in the photography. And so, like, it might have nothing to do with the photography, depending on if you're neurodivergent and what flavor of neurodivergent.
You might need to, like... I don't know what the hell you're gonna do with that situation, but you might need to do something totally different.
Amy (she/her): I have an answer. Well, I don't, I
Casey (she/her): Okay.
Amy (she/her): what, what you can do, and I can't speak to you,
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): tell you exactly how I have solved that problem in Alaska
Casey (she/her): Yeah.
Amy (she/her): I've been going for five years.
Casey (she/her): Yes
Amy (she/her): I have bought a pair of snow pants that ... And I bought them, I think, I was super worried about being s- uh, really cold.
Casey (she/her): Okay. Yeah
Amy (she/her): uh, it's one thing to live in Minnesota and know how to handle the cold when you're going from your house to your car, your car into the grocery store. that's, that's not hard if
Casey (she/her): Easy.
Amy (she/her): here long enough. Um, but i- in, if you're, again, on a boat and for hours and you're worried about getting cold, because I know I get cold, so I bought a pair of snow pants Sitka Gear
Casey (she/her): Mm-hmm. Ooh.
Amy (she/her): fuzzy.
It's hunting gear, and it's fuzzy on the outside. And
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): transforms me into a big, giant teddy bear, and it's oversized. Like,
Casey (she/her): Mm-hmm.
Amy (she/her): I look ridiculous. be the first one to acknowledge that I am utterly the most ridiculous creature out there. Um, but I am comfortable and I am warm.
Casey (she/her): Yeah, that's it.
Amy (she/her): kind of have to waddle because I don't have a lot of flexibility.
Um, but it gives me, it, it keeps me warm, and, and I just have accepted the fact that I look ridiculous,
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): that's how I cope with taking photos
Casey (she/her): Perfect.
Amy (she/her): And
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): think That may even go to the perfectionism theme of today, of you can't give a shit what you look like. You can't
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): about what you're doing, how, what your technique looks like. I think
Casey (she/her): Right.
Amy (she/her): caught up in that.
Casey (she/her): Yeah.
Amy (she/her): look stupid in front of these people?
So Alan Murphy is who runs these, uh, workshops, and he's become a friend of mine, and he will be the first one to give me shit about how, about anything. But
Casey (she/her): Right.
Amy (she/her): that, you know, out of love.
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): so you know, it, it's kind of, I know I will, will take crap for it, but not in a mean way. So,
Casey (she/her): Right.
Amy (she/her): um, and
Casey (she/her): And I was gonna say, and if you're warm and you're comfortable and you can stay out there and shoot all day and get those shots that you're looking for, then small price to pay. Like, absolutely worth it. Yeah. Yeah.
Amy (she/her): Yeah
The Socially Acceptable Hiding Place
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Casey (she/her): So I think actually that's a really good transition into kind of my next thought here is we've been talking about kind of like the comparison, the not good enough yet, but like when we do decide to put something out there or we have something that maybe we feel meets our threshold of good enough, why are we still not putting it out there?
Like, this next part of perfectionism being like what we're afraid of, and you just said it in the context of pants, but it's the same for the photos, of being afraid of looking stupid, being afraid of s- trying something and failing, which for a lot of us feels worse than just not trying at all. It's just safer to never put myself out there than to put myself out there and fail.
The fear of criticism, the fear of being misunderstood. This one was an interesting thought for me, and I can't remember what inspired it, but pictures are telling stories. This is a thing you always ask about, like, in your critiques of, like, what story you're trying to tell. Like, who's the boss, this, that, and the other.
Like, how are you trying to move people through the photo? And like,
Amy (she/her): Mm-hmm
Casey (she/her): I remember there was... Oh, I was in one of your group coaching calls, and there was a photo, and you kinda asked everyone else's input of it, and I wasn't a huge fan of the photo, and I did not... I didn't say that. I said it much nicer, but I'm like, "Here's what the photo makes me think of."
And everybody else loved the photo. And like, if that had been my photo and I was misunderstood by me, I would've been, like, embarrassed. And so there's this thing of, like, somebody else misunderstanding the story or what you're trying to convey or why that photo is captivating to you. How do we navigate those kinds of things, the vulnerability that comes from actually finally putting the shit out there?
Amy (she/her): So maybe instead of talking about it as a fear, what, what are we gaining not putting it out there?
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): what's the, the positive? Because if we don't put it out there, then we feel safe. And if we wait to put something out there until we know that it meets some stor- standard that we have set for ourselves, we're more likely to get the kind of praise that we're looking for, which maybe reflects on, you know, how we w- grew up.
At least for me, like I knew I would get praise for things that I did really well.
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): I would wait to put anything out there until it was good and, and
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): you know, like to- according to me, until it was really good. And
Casey (she/her): Yes.
Amy (she/her): whether
Casey (she/her): Yep.
Amy (she/her): it really was, I don't know. But,
Casey (she/her): Right
Amy (she/her): so putting things out there that we know aren't quite where we want them to be eventually feels scary. But, um, so the perfection of the- perfectionism gives us safety,
Casey (she/her): So yeah, I think there is that element. I think you're spot on, that element of, like, safety. But one of the things that I'm realizing about photography is I think it's one of the n- newer things that I'm learning that I feel like I can't learn in a vacuum. Like, a lot of the other skills, a lot of my other hobbies that I do, um, crochet and, I don't know, embroidery, and the gardening,
I can go onto YouTube and see a bunch of stuff and translate it into my own work. I can go find the stitch that I'm looking for in crochet and find 16 tutorial videos on that specific type of stitch and figure out how to do that stitch. I, I think because photography has that art element to it, I'm finding that I have to get feedback from other people to learn what I can't see in my own shots, and that is a whole new level of like vulnerability and challenge.
And so for me, it's finding a space where I feel safe asking dumb questions, hence this entire podcast, but also, like, how I feel inside your community space and, like, your, when... And I've talked about this before, but, like, you had a challenge that's literally like, "Go take terrible pictures," like intentionally bad pictures.
Oh, that's really safe to do. I didn't die. My camera didn't blow up. The world kept spinning. I can take bad pictures and show them to people, and okay, and I can learn from this. Okay. Yeah. Is, is how do we keep that safety in that growth part, too?
Amy (she/her): Right. Well, and can we back up and s- talk about why photography would be different than, you know,
Casey (she/her): Yeah.
Amy (she/her): or,
Casey (she/her): 'Cause I'm not totally sure.
Amy (she/her): Well, uh, here's, here's what comes to mind for me, is that in... If we're doing knitting, crocheting, embroidery, let's stick in that realm for the moment, um, uh, we can set up our, our scenario, we can set up what we're doing exactly as they do in the tutorial.
Casey (she/her): Right
Amy (she/her): to the, I can use the exact same thread and machine or needle or, you know, colors and everything, and I can exactly mimic what the person is doing in that tutorial.
Casey (she/her): Right
Amy (she/her): In photography, no two scenes are exactly alike. So I can teach you how to do landscapes, but there are still variables that need to be accounted for
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): can't be accounted for in a tutorial.
This is why I f- I struggle to do, like, tutorials, is because I know that somewhere along the way, somebody's gonna have something that's gonna nudge them off track,
Casey (she/her): Right
Amy (she/her): gonna... And I don't mind the troubleshooting, but they have to recognize that they have diverted from what the tutorial was teaching,
Casey (she/her): Right
Amy (she/her): uh, or that something is wrong, and then we have to tr- do our troubleshooting and figure out where things went off.
And it, it might be this little tiny thing,
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): it... But, but that course correction or that course change made, made the results wildly different than
Casey (she/her): Right
Amy (she/her): tutorial said you should be getting. Photoshop and Lightroom, you can get it a little bit closer, especially if the, the photographer will give you their files and you can follow through exactly on their images.
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): so that's, that's a little bit of a different beast. But in terms of actually doing photos,
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): um, I don't think you can set up your initial conditions so, so precisely enough that, that you can follow it exactly. So I... That's my theory
Casey (she/her): that makes so much sense. I, I think that very enlightening. Yes, I think that's spot on. And also the element that, like, photography still is art, and, like, there is still an element of, like, each opinion... Th- there is art that I look at that people are like, "This is amazing," and I'm like, "I don't understand.
This is stupid."
Amy (she/her): Yeah. Mm-hmm
Casey (she/her): just the true element of the nature of art. There's some types of photography I'm just not drawn to. There's other types that I'm obsessed with. But yeah, no, I think you're right that that ability to recreate the tutorial, follow step by step. Even today, took a bunch of hummingbird pictures yesterday, probably will take more today 'cause I'm obsessed, but my lighting conditions changed.
The sun just came out, and I'm like, "Oh, I can set my own camera up in the same spot that it was at yesterday on the same settings that it was at yesterday, and it's gonna be different because the flipping sunshine came out, and that's gonna totally change what I can and can't do at this particular spot where I'm shooting from."
And so yeah, even, even being able to recreate it, going back to, like, the fiber arts thing, like, okay, I wanna learn how to do a sl- I don't know, a slip stitch. The first five suck, but I can do 100 more of them and eventually figure out how to do it versus, like, almost every single photo there is a slight variation, so it makes it hard to get that amount of repetition in that same way.
Amy (she/her): Yeah,
Casey (she/her): Okay, I love that
Amy (she/her): I get that repetition in the, in the dog sport world, and that's, we talked about that
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): week, uh, in terms of getting that, those reps.
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): even then, I'm still constantly adjusting for minor changes in the dog's path, for the, the, if I'm outdoors, for the, you know, the sun and where the light angle is. Um, so there's, there is... Yeah, even in the
Casey (she/her): S-
Amy (she/her): there aren't, it's not always exactly the same,
Casey (she/her): Yeah. Yep. Okay.
Curiosity Instead of Perfectionism
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Casey (she/her): So I think a lot of this then comes back to, I guess we were talking about this in the sense of outside and, like, if you're getting frustrated while you're shooting. But, like, how do we move through this perfectionism so that we don't get stuck, so that we keep taking photos, so that we post those photos, whether it's in a small group, whether it's to a public social media, like, however we choose to go public with our stuff.
How do we start to not get trapped by that perfectionism? And so I came to the conclusion of curiosity, which we already kinda touched on, but we'll swing back to. Curiosity,
Amy (she/her): Mm-hmm
Casey (she/her): preparation, and presence
Amy (she/her): Mm. I like
Casey (she/her): It's...
Amy (she/her): one a lot.
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): Yep. Yeah. Because to me that's, that's the ballgame, is being aware ... You can be frustrated but not recognize that you're frustrated.
Casey (she/her): Mm-hmm.
Amy (she/her): be aware that you're ... Or you can be striving for this level of perspe- perfection but not be aware of it. And so that idea of being present and understanding what you are experiencing,
Casey (she/her): Mm-hmm.
Amy (she/her): I feel like is next level stuff for a lot of people. You know, they're
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): when they come and they ask the question of, "Well, I, what are your settings?"
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): you know, "What camera should I get?" That's not in the moment. That is, I see that you are doing this thing, and I want to do it exactly like you, and so I, those, these external things that you have and, and set on your camera should give
Casey (she/her): Yeah.
Amy (she/her): same results, right?
Casey (she/her): Yeah.
Amy (she/her): no,
Casey (she/her): No.
Amy (she/her): not.
Casey (she/her): Right. Yeah. And there is an element of that that does fall into the, like, preparation side of this. So instead of just, like, waiting for the perfect shot or waiting for the perk of circum- waiting for the perfect circumstances or, you know, is, is... There is still so much to learn. I'm, I'm... Like right now I'm learning about, like, composition and, like, how, like...
I'm learning all the settings on the camera. I'm learning the concept of, like, composing the shot. I'm learning, since I do a lot of birds, like, how do birds move and, like, what can I expect of them? And so there's so much to learn that I can learn in preparation outside of the field,
Amy (she/her): Mm-hmm.
Casey (she/her): but then also still going in the field and having that curiosity and that presence in the moment to then do something with that preparation
Amy (she/her): one of the things that fascinates me, um, and I, I will claim to be one of these people, uh, this idea of, of proclaiming loudly that you are a, a perfectionist and that
Casey (she/her): Mm-hmm
Amy (she/her): why we're not seeing your work yet, and this kind of this humblebrag. And now that I... While I understand the motivation and the intent behind it, it's, um, I... It makes me kind of wanna cringe because I don't think it's something that, that we want to claim as being a feature. It feels a little more like a bug these days.
Casey (she/her): I
Amy (she/her): know if you wanna speak to that on the nervous system side.
Casey (she/her): I agree. I think p- proclaiming your perfectionism, to me it screams like safety mechanism, is, "Oh, I have this..." It's like a little shield of armor, like, "Ugh, I'm a perfectionist, so I just can't put this out there yet." Or, you know, and so then it goes back to the thing of like, then I don't have to do the scary part, or I don't have to be vulnerable because I can just hide behind my little shield of being a perfectionist.
And it makes me think, the other thing that comes up to my mind is kind of the mirror, but similar, is people who will share something and immediately say like, "I know this is not good, but..."
Amy (she/her): Yes.
Casey (she/her): Is, is like same, maybe opposite side of the same coin, but there's this instant shield. Like, just show me the fucking picture and ask questions.
I don't
Amy (she/her): Mm-hmm.
Casey (she/her): need to know that you're a perfectionist or that this is a terrible picture and you need to like pre-disparage yourself. To me, they're like very similar vibes.
Amy (she/her): Yeah. Yeah, I don't think they're opposite. I think they're like two, two parallel tracks
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): that kind of go back and forth like this.
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): um, yeah, I, I... There are times when I have to just bite my tongue and, and not say to people, "Stop apologizing.
Casey (she/her): Yes
Amy (she/her): apologizing. Quit, quit telling me in advance that it's gonna be bad.
I,
Casey (she/her): Right.
Amy (she/her): that
Casey (she/her): don't care.
Amy (she/her): help me.
Casey (she/her): Right.
Amy (she/her): help me help you," right?
Casey (she/her): Yes. Yeah, and like,
Amy (she/her): "Help me
Casey (she/her): let me help you. And like, if you're there asking questions, then it doesn't matter if the, you're bad. Like, if it truly is objectively bad, that's why you're there getting help. Great, you're asking questions to correct the problem that you're having.
Amy (she/her): Right.
Casey (she/her): And then like, the perfectionist...
Yeah. Like, go ahead
Amy (she/her): You're, you're trying to, you're imposing expectations on what I am feeling.
Casey (she/her): Yes
Amy (she/her): that I'm expecting you to be perfect, and I'm
Casey (she/her): Yeah. Yeah
Amy (she/her): If you're showing up and, and, and perfect, then what, what are you there for? I mean, if
Casey (she/her): Right
Amy (she/her): if you already got it down pat, then you don't
Casey (she/her): Yeah.
Amy (she/her): help.
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): if you're showing up to get help, then, then let me help.
Casey (she/her): Yeah.
Amy (she/her): Um,
Casey (she/her): Yeah. Agreed. I think similarly, the being a perfectionist thing is that, like there is no such thing as perfect, and like I know that's so fucking cliche to say, but it's true. And so if you stay hidden behind that, then like either you stay hidden behind that and nobody ever sees your work and you can't learn and grow from it, or the other thing that sometimes screams to me is that you're not open to critique, is
Amy (she/her): Yes
Casey (she/her): do you even want to hear from me?
Like, why are you showing me this if you're a perfectionist? Because are you genuinely open to growing and learning and critique, or are you gonna internalize this as you now being terrible, no good, horrible, and it doesn't do anybody any good. So I think, yeah, I think that's, I think that's such a good thing because I, I...
In a world where a lot of people are in therapy and the self-deprecating humor, and we all have our own shit. I have my own list of shame and worthiness issues and like promise you, like my therapist and I, we go way back. There's a lot that's true here, and I don't have to preemptively use that to defend myself or let that keep me from exploring something that I find fun and fascinating.
And so then to me, to like round it back around, 'cause I love closing a loop, we go back to curiosity. And so while yesterday... I, I know I keep bringing up yesterday's hummingbirds, but it's what's fresh on my mind, 'cause I, I think about all this kind of crap like while I'm shooting now, is I never quite got the photo I want.
I don't think any of my photos from yesterday are perfect. Am I gonna show some of them to Amy so she can critique me and I can learn? Yes. And was it fascinating? There was a couple of times where I stopped looking through the camera and just looked at the birds. If I just let curiosity and awe take over for a second, these little creatures are the size of my thumb, and they are a whole ass like flying bird with feathers and a cardiovascular system and a skelet- boggles my mind.
And so I can even just set aside everything I'm feeling about my photography in the moment and just appreciate why I'm there too, and I think we sometimes don't talk about that side of it either. So
Amy (she/her): Yeah, that certainly seems like a topic that should be discussed in more depth.
Casey (she/her): Yes
Amy (she/her): one of the things I love about doing bird photography and landscape photography is that I can take those moments.
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): event when I'm there as the, as the
Casey (she/her): No. No
Amy (she/her): But when I get those, uh, e- even if the sunrise is a flop, I don't care.
I'm there in the moment watching it and capturing something maybe, and, and that might be, you know, one of those times where nothing is, ever gets... I look at them and, and they all go in the trash. It's okay. I still had the experience, and I was still there and present
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): and that was the best part of the morning, so
Casey (she/her): Yeah, I love it. Perfect. So if you're struggling with perfectionism, knock it off.
Amy (she/her): There you go. Solved.
Casey (she/her): If you're struggling with perfectionism, get curious about what you're struggling with, about what your standard of good enough is. Stop comparing yourself to people who are chapters and chapters ahead of you. Um, and just take the tiny steps and continue to explore and grow, and there's no nice, easy, tidy, perfect answer.
But also part of what I'm coming to love about photography is there's never a nice, tidy, easy, perfect answer. So go out there and take some fucking photos, and come back next week for another episode, and in the show notes, you can find links to learn more about Amy and I and the work we're doing, and follow The Focus Trap on all of the social medias