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Employment attorney Peter Rahbar and veteran journalist Laura Brounstein's weekly conversation about how the news is affecting the laws that govern our daily work and personal life. We cover negotiation, workplace privacy, pop culture and more!
Welcome to the Across the Bar podcast where we talk about why today's headlines are important for your success at work. My name is Peter Rahbar. I'm your first call on legal issues. I'm Liz Baker Plosser. I am your first call on endorphins and essential oils. Wow. Really changing it up on everyone. I know. And I'm not I'm not jet-lagged. It's not like middle of the night in Germany, so I'm a little more on today. Well, you Frankly, I was I was worried about whether you'd come back. I mean, or whether you'd come back and convert your whole house into a sauna. I mean, you were really immersed. Live in Brooklyn, so I don't have room for a home sauna. Plus, I like going and experiencing it with other people. And who am I going to wave my off goose towel for if it's just a I was very immersed. I know. And I've been writing about the experience. So, I'm still immersed. I feel like I'm talking to someone who was like, you know, a confidential government source like embedded undercover in the sauna world. I am just reemerged. I'm a mole. I'm a mole in the Yeah. the international sauna scene. Well, job. Thank you. It's good to It's good to be home. How are you doing? I'm doing great. You know, uh I was I did not spend a week in a sauna. So, that's okay. cold plunge in sauna sometimes, right? Yes, of course. I love it. I just finding the time would be could use a little help. Yeah, I know. I just feel I feel off if I haven't done it in like 72 hours. So, wow. Um that's who I've become. All right. All right. Well, anyway, I'm I'm going deep into the world of learning about essential oils and plants and herbs. So, um I'll be sure to bring that back at some point, right? Um it's really but but instead of that we'll be talking about the the great thing is I have range I can talk about many things hopefully. Um we have such an awesome show today. I'm going to run through the topics. We are going to talk about the ban that President Trump made against some news networks including CNN and what's going on there. We will be talking about Governor Pritsker who has revealed that he is on a GLP1 which I think was quite courageous and what that might mean. Uh Adam Grant, who's a behavioral workplace scientist, uh shared some tips on how to thrive at work during the AI area era. Um we're going to talk about a Wall Street Journal piece that was near and dear to my heart since I've talked about it on the show about what could go wrong if you purge all of the middle managers from corporate America again in the AI age. Um and then CEOs behaving badly. so many examples, but we'll get into a couple today. Part 157, CEOs behaving badly, but we have a we have a couple of newsy ones that we'll get into. Um, and then heroes and zeros. So, let's get into it. Yeah. All right. So, uh, let's start with the Trump ban. It's all the headlines. It's all anybody's talking about. Well, it's, you know, President Trump has banned, you know, at least three organizations from the White House, uh, press coverage, uh, press room specifically, seize their credentials, uh, CNN, MS Now, and Politico. Uh, the three organizations have filed a lawsuit as of Friday challenging this as unconstitutional. uh a violation of their free speech rights, a violation of their due process rights and the other members of the media pool have banded together. Finally, some group figured this out to stop covering pres the president uh on his you know daily events or whatever in a very big week for him with the Mam Dani meeting, the helellipad revealing the UN, the upcoming China summit. So, let's, you know, a little a little gamesmanship here, but obviously essential uh to stand up to this type of behavior, which is a, you know, there's there's no other way to put it. It's a direct attack on the press. And, um, he's going to lose in court. Uh, well, that's good to hear because I I didn't know how the the legal side was going to go down. I mean, unfortunately, I'm not surprised at all. I actually was like, I thought this had happened before, which is so heartbreaking. Um, but yeah, it it's just yet another step closer to what I think, which is he's trying to be a dictator. Like, this is insanity. Um, I was very heartened that the news organizations banded together and are, you know, standing in solidarity. I actually didn't know very much about how the press pool works. I knew, you know, obviously about their credentials and that a lot of people like work out of the light the White House and it's, you know, that's their beat. It's their day-to-day job. But, um, I guess they they share the financial burden of setting up equipment and microphones and being the one to record his various appearances and then they share that footage so that all the networks can, you know, make it into content that resonates with their audience. So, wow is all I have to say. Yeah. I mean I I yeah it it is a wow moment and I have a couple things to say about it. I mean first from a just purely legal perspective um cases the the difference here is that the White House press room uh is a non-public space but controlled by the government and the the constitution applies to the government actions. Um, and so, you know, it's not like a private actor who could say you're allowed here or you're not, or make rules for for entry. If if they do make rules as a governmental entity, they have to be fair and non-discriminatory. Here, this press room has already been found by courts to be a what's called a non-public forum, controlled by a government entity, subject to constitutional protection. And so, here the president said he's banning these three organizations because of their viewpoints. that's prohibited under the constitution. He also didn't give them due process. So, they had no opportunity to respond to a potential revocation of their credentials, present their side. They were actually never even given it a full reason and it's not fully clear. I mean, the president has made a lot of different statements on this. So, their due process rights were also violated here. I think a court will find. So, they banded together. They filed this lawsuit. the other entities in the pool decided to work together. And so you could say, look, this is a response to an authoritarian type move. Yesterday we saw the immediate emergence of Trump TV. And so you could say, is the goal here to create a state-run news agency like we'd find maybe in Russia or other um communist countries uh authoritarian countries? Maybe. You know, my theory is really if you look at this president, like sure, he doesn't like being criticized. Sure, he wants to have control over everything, but more than anything, he wants to make money off of everything he does. And so, I wouldn't be surprised if he turns around and charges networks for access to him, you know, through this Trump TV or or charges constituents to watch Trump TV. I thought he was just being a baby. Yeah, he could do both. I think he's doing both. like Sh is being a jerk, but also he's never going to miss an opportunity to make money. Either way, it shouldn't be tolerated. It Yeah, it's shocking. I think um I saw some clips of reporters asking Vice President JD Vance about this and he's just stepping in line like, "Oh yeah, these networks, it's like propaganda. It's a you know, I mean, he explicitly states it's a different political party. Why would we give them access?" It's like because we're America and this is built into our constitution. I have to give a shout out to Caitlyn Collins, a CNN reporter who's such a badass. Like, she's just so composed at all times. No matter what comes back at her, which often is so egregious and derogatory, she stays composed and professional and quick on her feet. And um I there was she posted something with CNN today. She was at the United Nations where the press is credentialed via the United Nations and I think Trump came out and was like, "What are you doing here? You've been banned." You know, and she's she's just she's so smart and awesome. Also, she loves working out. She goes and works out with um Atkins Army. So, I love that she's also a fitness girl, of course. And and she's very tough. And look, no one no one should give up. No one should, you know, stop the fight. And, you know, of course, part of this is also creating distractions. Obviously, there are bad stories this week about the war, the economy, you know, other things that he does not want people to focus on. But primarily, I think, you know, he wants to control the message. He wants to profit off the message, and he doesn't want you talking about bad things. You know, it's not too hard not too hard to figure out. This is his formula for everything, but it should be fought and the case will be won. That's my prediction. Shout out to Gibson Dunn for taking on the case against the government. Obviously, a lot of these big law firms fear going against the government, right? Uh for fear of ret retribution, but uh true Gibson Dunn wrote the wrote the complaint and is is leading representing these press organizations in their fight. So, and by the way, everybody should want them to win. Whether you agree with what they say or not, everybody should want them to win. I thought this was the free speech president, by the way. So, so much for that. Exactly. All right. Well, to be continued, it's a developing story and as a journalist, I'm keeping a close eye on it as every American should, whether whatever industry you work in. Um, okay. Another politician, Governor Pritsker of Illinois, um recently shared in an interview interview on CBS Mornings that he is on uh GLP1 and that it's helped him lose weight and um he was on the verge of being um going on insulin and you know he's so much healthier since he's been taking this medication that that's no longer on the table. He's feeling good. Um, so I think this is really interesting in a a time when more and more Americans are going on this medication. As I've said on the show, I have a substack called Best Case Scenario. Anytime I write about GLP1s, it takes off. A lot of new subscribers come in. Um, but I'm curious your thoughts because I wonder if there's strategy behind it uh beyond him, you know, just deciding to vulnerably open up about his personal health. Uh, I'm sure there is. Um I I don't by the way I don't know I don't have any personal information but I I'll say I'm sure there is I I wanted you to conjecture but I but first of all shout out to Governor Pritsker who's a Duke alum and and a big supporter of Duke. So we we love that. I've seen him as sky and great guy to talk to. Um I I think I think he's probably trying to do a couple things. I mean first I think you know to the extent he may be running for president he's trying to get ahead of this issue. Uh the president unfortunately has has chosen his Governor Pritskar's weight as something to criticize over the past couple months and year. Trump is criticizing somebody's weight. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. You know, the model of fitness, fittest president we've ever had. Um but he he's, you know, criticized his weight and and it's noticeable if you see him, you know, it's very noticeable that he's lost a significant amount of weight. And so I think he wants to get ahead of that issue. I think also, you know, as a CEO, um, you know, let's say a governor is a CEO of a state, but as a CEO, as a governor, as as a representative, I talked about this with Mitch McConnell last week, like your health is a relevant issue for your constituents. Um, for CEOs, it could literally be a subject of disclosure that has to be, you know, disclosed in SEC filings. if if like a very prominent CEO has a health issue that could materially affect a company's bottom line has to be disclosed. But I think you know this is a very tough issue for executives. You know when you have a health condition when is the right time to disclose it to the company and what do you disclose about it to the company? And I'm not talking about like, oh, you're sick and you're going to be out for a week. But in the past, it used to be if you have a very serious illness that's going to require you to be not visible or not in the office, you know, do you disclose it? Do you tell people about it? Um, and now you know with GLPs, we've talked about it in the context of your office discussions, but for executives who are on GLPs, and there are a lot of them who are, by the way, um, you know, is that something that you should talk about and disclose? And, you know, I think it's a very good thing he's doing to try and normalize and, you know, make people comfortable with talking about these issues even in the public spotlight. So, kudos to him. Yeah, I I agree. I think normalize is the exact word. I was looking into this a tiny bit. I had no idea um that weight is like a signal reporters look at when a potential presidential candidate, somebody they think might want to run for office, suddenly drops some weight, that that's apparently like suggest Yeah. that they they're serious about it. They're going to make a run for it just cuz they want to look, I guess, healthier. Um did you know that? Is that like a I mean, yeah, I've talked about it with I've talked about it with clients who are in the media. I mean, it's certainly something that is something they talk about. And look, if you're running for president, with their their jobs in the media world. Yeah. Yeah. Like, you know, it is one of the things mentioned for sure. Um, I encountered that for sure. But but one of the things that's very relevant in presidential elections is just how people look on camera and whether you like it or not whether it's right or not like it is I mean we talk about looking presidential and maybe we have one now doesn't really but you know um it it it has it is something people talk about you know and um so I I think it's good for him to get ahead of it and an interesting uh detail in there are something we've talked about the past couple weeks. He did specifically mention that Illinois state health insurance policy that he's on does cover JLP once. So kudos to I read that too. I was going to bring that up, but you beat me to it. Um also I have to apologize. I don't have Caitlyn Collins's neutral face when we we talk about these things. But um yeah, I thought that was really cool that he pointed it out. Uh that came up in his CBS interview. And it's um it's interesting. I I read somewhere that this might also be a strategy to appear more like the everyman um because so many Americans navigate weight stuff. So anyway, lots of reasons and I'm sure it'll spark many conversations which I personally think is a good thing. Yeah. And in a day and age where CEOs are reluctant to share details about their personal lives for primarily security reasons, um I think I think it's a it's a good story and one that you know I mean it flows on like we talked last week about the CEOs are trying to promote exercise and activities, social activities or whatever like you know anything you could do to relate to the people who work for you or follow you know should be encouraged. Yeah. For sure. Agreed. All right, switching gears a little bit. Uh, Adam Grant, who's a PhD and studies workplace dynamics and behaviors. He has a podcast. He's written a bunch of books, couple of which I might have read. Um, he was interviewed for a piece in the Wall Street Journal. Uh, super fascinating topic right now, which is how do you thrive at work when we're all terrified we're going to be replaced by AI? Um, so he had some really awesome tips. Do you remember any of them? I do. I do because if I didn't, then I'd be failing at this job. Uh but you know it it all boils down to a concept we've talked a lot about on this podcast um in the past few weeks and the past few months is with the emergence of AI you know the utility of expertise has sort of decreased and the value of agility and being adaptable and having good judgment have all increased. And we we talked about the judgment specifically, you know, with the Ernstston Young bonuses like on human skills. So if the machines can sp you know give you any information you want, you know, after you put in the right prompt, then who's interpreting that information? It really becomes key. Like who puts in the prompts and who reads the output and decides like what's relevant or not? That's really what becomes valuable. So there's a couple different skills like packed in there, right? Like first you need to know how to use the technology and then know how to use it well and then you know interpret the results of it and then present it, right? Like so you know just knowing the information is not good enough. Like there I'm sure everyone can tell the story about you know the person in their workplace who knows where all the bodies are buried or knows this like one specific piece of information that no one else knows and they're the expert that we have to keep around for that purpose. Like the need for that type of person is going away. Um yeah, I thought it was a really interesting article. um he recommends running some experiments to test out this theory of being like dynamic and able to to pivot and really like leaning into things only humans can do. One of which was um to rather than emailing or uh slacking with somebody to like cold call them and talk about an idea and just get them on the phone. Um which kind of shook me because I don't love it when somebody cold calls me. How about you? Do you answer when people call call you? I actually Peter, now this has been almost a year of it. I put my phone on do not disturb like all day long. So I don't get text alerts or phone calls at all. Nope. And and then so Okay. So you don't answer the phone calls because you you're not getting the phone calls. Yeah. I mean obviously I attend my meetings and I'm a very like reliable uh consultant and edi uh writer for my editors. I show my meetings co-host I don't think I've ever been late. No, I don't think um I mean today maybe a minute, but it wasn't that bad. Um well, I was looking for the link. So, yeah. Um, uh, at any rate, I I thought that was fascinating and it it was funny because I was thinking about that and then speaking of, I was in a meeting with one of my clients earlier this morning and, you know, he was sort of talking about how he was going to take on some other task like we were just idea sparking with one another and he was like, "Oh, that's interesting. I'm going to try that." And I was kind of like, "How are you going to do that? You already wear so many hats. They're a startup, small team." And he said, "Well, we're in the process of automating everything we can. Like, we're going to use AI for as much as possible." And he was like, "So that I have the bandwidth and space to be in meetings like this where I can, you know, think bigger." And obviously I felt good about that to be in the meeting that an LL thinkers meeting, the big thinkers cannot replace. Um but it seemed like a real world example of okay this is happening AI is happening but the value of brainstorming and real interaction and like you said judgment and also like a big reason I'm valuable to them is I go out in the world and talk to people and go to events and summits and experience things and that is something you can't send Claude as much as I love Claude for a lot of tasks you can't send Claude to do that. That's right. And by the way, I mean, you can if if you're an experienced business person and you talk to someone who like literally has never left their computer, like you could tell. I mean, that is something you can tell. Like, it's it's from just like the way they talk and the questions they ask and, you know, how they process things like I have clients like that. I represent a lot of engineers, you know, I can tell they don't spend a lot of time away from their computers and their their offices. is I mean so there's certainly value to that and by the way I think that's that's like another value that's going to distinguish people is like you know personality like how personable are you like how good of a representative are you of the company I mean those are things that have always been important but like could really take on this like added level of importance and by the way I I'm not saying you don't need the expertise you still need the expertise obviously you need it to interpret the results and interface with the the the AI, but you know, I it's not the only thing you need. Yeah, that that was an interesting point you brought up. It reminded me of the pandemic days when we weren't out and about in the world and um you know back then I was working as EIC of women's health and legacy media and like the only way I could generate story ideas was by scrolling social media and seeing what people were posting about and then honestly more often the comments were interesting to see the conversations that were erupting there. Erupting is a strong word. Sometimes they were. And it sucked, man. I hated it. I mean, you know, it worked for a little while, but Oh, I'm so glad to It's so much better when you're out in the world living. That's where the real stuff happens, obviously. Yeah, the comments comments are great. I mean, we've we've seen it even on some of the clips we've posted the past couple weeks. Like, the Obama comments really go like in a couple different directions, you know, but it's fine as long as it gets people talking about it. I don't care. Yeah, it's good. all the time. No, of course not. But it's it's important and and you know, like one of the interesting I got torched in some of ours. It's okay. It's good. It's all right. It's all right. I'm okay with it. But but you know, you see this trend in a lot of ways. Like one of actually one of the most popular majors now that companies are looking for is philosophy majors. You know, even with the rise for real. Yeah. that I just met. Um I took my son to a USA fencing event yesterday and Lauren Scrugs who fences foil. She's she went to Columbia. She lives in New York City. She works at Bank of America now. She told me um she won the gold medal at the Paris Olympics. She told me she was a philosophy major and I thought that was really cool. There you go. Helped her get a gold medal. So useful. Exactly. Um, all right. Let's move on to the purge of middle managers. I have told you that I think this this one really upsets you. I know it does because I used to manage You love middle managers. You love them. Well, here's the thing. I when I was a boss, I managing wasn't my favorite thing. I'll just put it that way. I love people. I love nurturing people. I love watching them grow. I have talked to her about my love of giving gold stars and my um you know how I have So far you love all the good parts. I love all the good parts and if I and I had many report I mean well I guess that's relative. I think by the end at WH I had seven or eight reports. It's a lot of people to take care of and to you know be there for. I know managers have differing opinions about whether a standing one-on-one is essential. It was just like a lot of time. And I love collaboration. I love teams. I love being the captain of the soccer team and the women's health or whatever it was. Um, but I think it's like CEOs or editors or whoever the leader is. They have to be at meetings upstairs. They have to travel. Uh, they have all sorts of things going on. So, I just don't think they can effectively nurture and help and like manage. If if if you told me that instead of seven people, I was going to be managing 20, I would feel really sad for those people because I just couldn't give them as much as I wanted to and they need deserved. Yeah. I mean in a professional white collar office environment there's no way you could have 20 direct reports as a as a senior level executive or manager like you just couldn't and and I think you know this is a trend that was started in tech companies who generally do not place a lot of value on training developing employees. Uh they like going through the motions they like getting rid of people quickly. you know, they believe in a lot of jargon and speak that doesn't corporate speak that doesn't really help anyone. Um, but you know, when they're looking for, you know, uh, ways to cut costs, they come up with these theories of like, well, middle managers aren't really necessary anyway, so we're just going to cut them out. You know, you like the Uber layoff memo where it said like, oh, it's too hard to get stuff done, so we're just going to cut out the middle managers. And and you know to me these middle man and as was you know referenced in this article middle managers perform a pretty important role. They're your direct you know line with employees. They hear out their problems. They solve problems on the spot. If you're a senior manager, you don't want to deal with every little problem that people on your team have. You know, you just don't. So someone has to deal with them. They employees can't deal with them themselves. So they they not only deal with those issues, but they can also provide encouragement and support and make sure making sure things are getting done on time um and in the right way. Like I mean to me it seems like kind of crazy and I I think there will be a snapback on this point for sure. I agree with the author on it 100%. Yeah, good on this Wall Street Journal writer. Um it's interesting. I I have seen companies that have eliminated a lot of middle managers and watched the CEOs, you know, delegate and empower junior employees, which sounds exciting and good until the email goes out and the subject line isn't what the leader wanted. And then next thing you know, that person is like in the weeds writing email subject lines and it's like, I think there's a better use of your brain cells, you know? So, I think it's it's not just about nurturing the the upandcomers. It's also about the growth and health of the business. Like the CEO can't can't have their hands in everything. They need people to help them to put out fires to to teach to be like, "Oh, I caught the typo or this this is off-brand." Um, so yeah, it's I think if if people are if people are important to your if you believe people are important to the success of your company, then this is not a decision you're going to make. Um, you know, they need to be supported. They need to be nurtured. They need to be developed, you know, I mean, that's a lot of work and one person can't do that for 20, 30 people. It's crazy when I when I hear someone tell me they have, you know, doubledigit direct reports. I I give them an eye roll immediately. I can't I can't help myself. I mean, that just seems crazy to me. Did you enjoy managing people when you were in corporation? Really loved it. Loved it. What did you love about it? I love building a team. I I love helping people succeed. I love people Well, I love those things, too. Yeah. I mean, uh, but I didn't love being a manager. Yeah. I mean, but sometimes, you know, and I people look at difficult conversations and say those are moments I don't want to be in. I looked at them as moments to develop trust with the people who work for me and say like, you know, here's the difficult moment we're facing. How are we going to get through it if we're able to get through it? And if we're not, you know, then at least giving the person, you know, the the decency of explaining that to them. and it's hard but like it's necessary work and people deserve that. If they come every day to work for you, they deserve that. That was always my view. So I I love that part of my job. Um it's a part of the job I I miss now. I don't you know, as you know, I work for myself, so I don't have employees. Uh but I it was something I always enjoyed. Um at risk of sounding like a a trope or a gendered stereotype, I think I just got too emotional. like I would get really disappointed when I was let down. Um I I would feel really bad when they didn't succeed in the way that I knew they were capable of and had the potential to and you know knew that it wasn't it wasn't going in the right direction. I don't know. I just took it really hard. I'm I'm a big softy inside. Yeah, that's understandable. A lot and a lot of people have those feelings. So Okay. Sorry again turning you into a therapist uh in a different in a different way. Um I will I will stop with that. All right. I want to um talk about CEOs behaving badly. We have a couple of very couple candidates couple of candidates for this week of across the bar. Um so the I'll bring up the first one which just like kind of started making the rounds today. uh Peter Ray Hall uh who is the CEO and founder of David Protein the for for listeners and viewers who don't know that is you know the the protein bar that has gold wrapping and has more than 30 grams of protein in it but has like less than 200 calories which is sort of shocking and takes a lot of chemical magic in a lab to create. I could go down that rabbit hole but I won't. At any rate that company has Not your preferred protein bar. It is not my preferred based on it's not my preferred. I know people love it. It's all over in New York. I see people unwrapping them on airplanes. I think they're coming out with frozen yogurt now. Yeah, they launched like an ice cream and a a milkshake that's kind of like taking the place or is sort of a competitor to core protein which I actually re uh drink. It's like a chocolate milk that's 30 to 50 grams of protein. I I need to try that one. But the company is doing extraordinarily well for at least how it appears from the outside. I haven't reviewed their financials, but they're people love them. They do really splashy marketing campaigns. Anyway, uh Peter the CEO went on a podcast and what did he say that was? He said he he likes to suffer and that like everything everything he uh he does he does it in a way so that he suffers like he when he takes out his kid he doesn't use his stroller and you know I actually I got to be honest I stopped listening after he said he likes to suffer and he doesn't use a stroller for his kid because you know we've we've heard this so many times from these I I would classify him as like you know the one of the tech like startup bros like this whole Like it's just never enough for these people. Like they can't just be have successful companies and make money and leave everyone else alone. They then need to like impose their whole life philosophy on everybody. Like I don't care about your life. I don't care how much you like suffering. I don't think that's a good way for people to live. I don't think it's a healthy way for people to live. I don't think it should be promoted. It works for you. Great. Keep it to yourself. Who cares? There was a similar VC a couple weeks ago who said he doesn't like taking Novacaane like during root canals. That was his way of suffering. Like give me a break. Do you want like a medal? Like what what do you want from us? What? Like why do we need to hear this BS? That is masochistic. Um I'm also not I'm also not sure I believe either of them if I'm being honest. Um, uh, I just think first of all, I'll say I have met a couple CEOs in the wellness space since that tends to be that is where I work who are to totally normal humans and humble and don't want to be the main character. Um, and so they do exist, but I agree with you 100%. They are the minority. And I think this is just something I see, you know, Business Insider and Fortune and um various podcasts, they all bring these CEOs on and a lot of them have these franchises, you know, these like a what is your morning routine type of thing. And I I do think they just try to make themselves sound as I they think it's impressive. I I am like you. I'm like, I'm turning this off. I can't listen to it. This does not inspire me. This does not give me me ideas for being more productive, successful, healthier, happier. It's like let's let's try and be as extreme as possible in everything we do. I mean, I I think you could be successful with not being that extreme. I don't know. Just just a guess. Yeah, I agree with you. Um, okay. Another CEO behaving badly. Well, I should say a former CEO. So, Chip Wilson is the founder. Once a CEO, always a CEO now saying is that really is it like they still refer to him as as such a Yeah, that's that's that is when he's in the news, which he is a lot. Um yeah, he's still on the board and he owns a lot of equity in the company. Um Chip Wilson is the founder of Lululemon, which is obviously a brand everyone has heard of. They make active wear. Um they launched in the early 2000s, I believe. my I should fact check myself. Anyway, they've been around for a long time. Vancouverbased company um started kind of with yoga attire leggings and through you know a lot of stars aligning and honestly excellent well-designed product that was really cute they took off and there was a period in time when that's all you saw walking into gyms, yoga studios and even like walking around the streets of New York City and beyond. Um, at any rate, there was a a a recent piece in the Wall Street Journal that pointed out um that Chip is in the midst of a divorce and didn't have a prenup agreement. And so that is going to impact him financially and how much influence he can have from afar on the trajectory of the company, which by the way, he has been meddling left and right. This man cannot let Lululemon go. he he seems determined to stay in the mix, to let it be known he doesn't agree with what's happening at the company. So, I want to talk about that, but I'll just tease that there's a second piece of this that was sort of hidden in the article, which is the fact that um his soon tobe ex-wife was actually an employee that um Chip hired at in the very early days of the company when uh they were they were scrappy and didn't have much budget. Um, and I think it was inappropriate how he interacted with her before they were officially a couple. So, I gave you a lot there. Legal conclusion right there. Yeah. Um, well, in my expert opinion, well, one of his first hires was Shannon Summer Gray, uh, who was who's became the company's lead designer and later became his wife. And the story talks about how they were on a business trip together where they shared a hotel room which was apparently company policy early days, one that I would disagree with, and they were in separate beds, but then he got into her bed and they cuddled and then like they became married. Um, okay. Well, I'm happy for them. That's a great story. That's kind of messed up. If my boss said you're going to sleep in the other bed in this hotel room, I would feel very uncomfortable. No, it's not something you should do. You should not be sharing hotel rooms with people who report to you. Um, and you certainly shouldn't be jumping into bed with them. Those are obvious nos. So, um, you know, and and and I've said previously and I believe it, I don't think a CEO could have a relationship with anybody in the company, period. Now, could other executives have consensual relationships with each other? I I would say yes. If they're not reporting to executive, yeah, if they're not reporting to each other, they're same level, it doesn't create issues for other people. I still wouldn't encourage it, but if it happens, like, yes, I think Okay. But I think the CEO is in a category of their own. Like they should not have relationships with anyone. The the power imbalance is too great. Um the risk to the company both financially and reputationally is too great. Um and you know if you're a CEO, you're not there to find a romantic interest. You're there to work and and you know uh bring success to the company and bring success to its employees and customers. Like the last thing on your mind should be finding a soulmate at the company. Yeah, there are plenty of other places to to do that. I think it I think it could be complicated even with executives, but that's a story for another day. For sure. For sure. And if you're a company, they they they oversee different teams that might interact and it can be seen as favoritism or, you know, persuade. Anyway, I'm not saying it is like that, but I could see that employees getting that impression whether accurately or inaccurately. Totally. And I I think it's it becomes a huge could become a huge distraction. Now, some companies have policies that forbid it. Um, but others, you know, say like, well, we can ask you to like sign an agreement that outlines the terms of like what happens here, you know, blah blah blah. And like, so it it definitely becomes complicated. Again, I'm not saying I encourage it, but like if it's between two executives who don't report to each other or two employees who are totally different parts of the business, like there are some scenarios where it it could be permissible, but I still wouldn't encourage Okay. Can you very quickly tell us what the deal is with the prenup thing? Like, is that something CEOs need to be thoughtful about with the future of their company? Yeah, like I think so. I mean, if you're a CEO and and you know, let's just say you have substantial, you know, compensation packages and wealth, I think that's an issue that, you know, uh, people with wealth always or people who expect to have wealth, I mean, they always grapple with, you know, do you do you have a prenup or not? And some would say it's a very smart like prudent practice. Others take deep offense to it. I mean that's it's obviously person it's a personal decision but I think for a CEO of a public company I think it's a pretty prudent thing to have in place. It also lessens disruptions that could potentially impact the company like getting involved in a big messy divorce case. There's a couple playing out right now in the in in you know the news. This is one of them. I mean there's a there's a couple here in New York that are playing out. So like having a prenup avoids that potential. So, it's a serious thing to to think about if you know you are a CEO or think you may be a CEO or you know someone even who's just going to have a very substantial role at your company. It's it's an added element to a already admittedly like very difficult personal decision that you would make. Fair enough. Thank you for weighing in on that. Um, I have one quickie before we go to Heroes and Zeros, which is an article I've been wanting to discuss because it made me kind of mad. It was in the Wall Street Journal. It was an essay by a woman. it it's been it's more than a week old. So, forgive me for not knowing every single detail, but the the gist of it was that she was asked to speak to fly somewhere um and speak to a group of people, which she did, and she prepared a presentation and um blah blah blah. And she finished it and it went really well. And people came up to her afterward and told her how much they learned. And then she went home and created an invoice and emailed it to the people who had brought her out. And that's when things got messy because they said, "Oh, we thank you for doing that." Or whatever they said, but like we never agreed upon a fee. We're not paying you. And they went kind of back and forth and she didn't get paid. And um you know the piece is sort of think talking about the existential questions around sharing knowledge and what we learn from each other and the AI again era. But mostly what I heard was like what was she thinking not firming up a fe sorting that and locking it down as somebody who like goes and speaks at summits or goes to retreats and some of them I'm like I'm doing this for visibility or networking or credibility or whatever it is but more and more because my bandwidth is what it is I'm like I need to be paid and I'm still figuring out what the right number is. I think about it all the time, but like is this am I crazy that this is like how could this woman think that she was going to get paid without agreeing upon a fee? I think she's the crazy one. Uh but unfortunately a lot of people, you know, who work on their own get caught in this situation where, you know, they talk to someone, they agree to do something, they think they're going to be paid for it because they have expertise. like this this author, she happens to be an author, um has and then the person on the other side is like, "No, I wasn't planning to pay you." And and as someone I'm speaking as someone who gets hit up with requests like this all the time where people want to talk to me, I mean, they'll literally send me emails saying, "Hey, can you talk to me for, you know, half hour for free basically to tell me what to do in this situation?" And you know, you need you need to stand up for yourself. Like I mean, by the way, there's times where I'll do it depending on who the person is or who's sending them over, what the situation is. But, you know, there are times where you just have to say, "Look, uh, I have a practice. I charge people, you know, by the hour." And, you know, talking to you takes time away from time spent with other clients who are willing to pay. So, yeah, I do have to charge. I have this conversation with people all the time, but like this story and my experiences sort of lead me to like people love free expertise as much as they can get. And so if you have expertise, you need to set boundaries. So she should have after they asked her, she should have sent over a contract before she showed up for anything and made sure the expectations were clear and set. And by the way, she should have gotten paid before she appeared in the office. And I work with a lot of people starting their own businesses and I have contracts for them and I have the same talk with them and they set it up and all the expectations are clear. The payment schedules are set and then you start working and the people who call me and say I already started and I want to get this in place get a little lecture from me about why you shouldn't do that. Um but ultimately we get to the right place. I'm sure you know that's interesting. I had thought about it more like I'm being asked to do something and I need to lock up the fee before I agree to go do it. But I get that too. I get people who are like, "Hey, can I jump on a quick call with you?" or whatever. And what always happens in my world is they tease like, "This could lead to a paid opportunity or we may want to collaborate with you or Liz, you should meet with this person because they love you and they're going to want to do something big with you." It's just it's BS is what it is. Excuse my language. I've heard it all, too. And I have gone through the process of learning that lesson. It never turns into anything. They squeeze me for what I know. They ask me for contacts, which by the way are gold and hard. I can't put like an hourly rate on my rolodex that I've spent decades building. So, I know I'm a little fiery about this, but like it it happens a lot to me. And I don't want to be a jerk. I love sharing knowledge. I love connecting with people, but like I'm really busy and I worked for a long time to know what I know and do what I do. I can't just hand it out for free left and right. Right. I mean, my my my experience is anyone who uh says that they're going to send me referrals in exchange for a free talk ne never ever ever has sent me a referral. People who say that, it never works out. That's like the big red flag. Anyway, all right. So, we're on to you people. Referral. Advocate for yourself on on both sides where whether you're being hired or being um Yeah. sought out for your expertise, right? Okay. With that, oh, heroes and zeros. So, heroes and zeros. Who's your zero? So many choices. I know this is this is um we didn't really talk about social media much today, so I'll I'll throw out a social media thing. Um Meta, which is Facebook, Instagram, WhatsApp, etc. They just launched um a new tiered membership program called Meta 1, which has a variet kind of like a sliding price scale. I think the the highest level is like $500 a month. Um, and it gives you all sorts of features like you can put links and a certain number of reels a month, which obviously would be very helpful. It's kind of it's hard to get people to take action from a post. Um, unless it's an ad like if it was organic posted content, that would be really nice. I would love to be able to post something and just have my, you know, a new substack and have my link there, etc. Um, it also has weird features like you are like hidden from how other pe others can't see if you've viewed their story which is just kind of weird and see creepy and you can see how many times people have viewed your story and you get like a special badge which by the way I think is a badge of shame not a badge of honor. So, I just think it's gross. And I think this like hearkens back to the big lawsuit we talked about a few weeks ago where Meta was um you know, they they had they have to pay a ton of money and they're making changes to how teenagers interact in the platform and when they get access and what they can see and how they can use filters. I just think this is going to be mentally bad for people. Like I understand why brands would invest in it, but I just think it's like what? I don't know. I'm I'm sick of it. I think it's gross. Yeah. I mean, they're such an interesting company because like so many people hate them yet so many people use it. I use Instagram every day. I know. And um and you know this week I thought what you were I thought you were going to talk about Meta Muse which is now like the number there's that too app on um the app store and like look as as much as people don't trust Meta or don't like Meta like people are like literally giving it like their email access their text access their credit cards their loyalty numbers like their Amazon pass well not Amazon blocked them but I mean it's crazy to me like I you know how much people actually value privacy is is an interesting debate. My answer was always like very little. No matter no matter what we say in these debates about how important privacy is like I don't think people give a [ __ ] about their privacy like they're sharing everything about themselves all over the place. So that's a good one. Um what's yours? you know, well, mine is, you know, not the fact that mine is the Paramount deal, but not the fact that, you know, a deal was reached. I mean, obviously, a deal was going to be reached at some point. There was just too much like money involved for it not to be reached, but I feel like the attorney general's like really wasted the tremendous leverage they had here. The deal they ended up getting isn't really that impressive. Doesn't really hold Paramount's feet to the fire at all. um you know with the like sort of oversight board that they can name themselves and like this like very weak like two-year guarantee on the number of movies they have to produce and like couple other things. I you know I I I think higher level politicians got involved and said make this deal happen and it happened but it's tough for Rob Bont who's the attorney general in California and the other attorney generals who just seemingly caved at the last moment. It's it's not great that that went down that way in my view. I agree. I I completely agree. I feel like this has been in the headlines and we've been waiting for so long and here we are. Yeah. Yeah. Heroes. What a world. What a world. Let's get to something uplifting. Okay. Something uplifting. Um, all right. Well, I mentioned this a bit ago, but I went to this USA fencing event yesterday in New York City. Um, I took my son Charlie. It was so cool. They invited me to come out for this activation. They're just trying to get fencing in front of more people. They want more kids to get into fencing. My son has been fif he's 15 now. He's he started when he was nine. And he was off school yesterday. So, they were like, "Sure, bring him out." So he came with me and two foil fencers which there's several different types were there including one who's like his hero um Bryce Louie who's on the USA national team and Charlie got to have like a lesson with him and then Bryce gave me a lesson and and then Charlie and I fenced together for a little bit and Charlie was like correcting my form and stuff. It was just you didn't like stab him or anything did you or did he stab you? Was Was that Did any of that happen? Any blood drawn? It's funny. It's funny you say that because while I was Uhoh. You stabbed your kid. That's not good. It wasn't Charlie. Sweet Bryce. You stabbed another kid. No, Bryce is like 22, so I don't know if you consider that a kid. I guess they're still kids. But he was so sweet and he was giving me a lesson and he was teaching me how to lunge forward. And I was kind of I I mean I've I've seen videos of it. not know who he was dealing with. No, I stabbed him in an a not good area for a man. Oh, you stabbed an Olympian in a sensor. Yes. And my son was recording it on his phone. So, I have footage of it and he like dropped to the ground and grabbed his crotch and I was like, "Oh no." No. It was like, you can't make this up. Like, it was out of a movie. Epic. Oh. Obviously, I don't know what I'm doing and I didn't mean to do that, but it was horrible. I was mortified. And he was totally cool about it and really nice and he's like, "I'm okay." I mean, I apologized so many times, but that's not why this is a hero. It's totally fine. The fencing moms, they're very aggressive. I'm aware. I just had no aim. I don't know how to handle that. Yeah. Uh foil, the the weapon as they call it. At any rate, it was really fun to be outside and um good vibes and I made met some really interesting people and um really hyped for Charlie. And also it's a hero because I'm like a cool mom for a little bit. Charlie is like like I've done cool stuff with Lucy through work. I've done cool stuff with George through work. But Charlie's never been the beneficiary of it. And he finally was. And he was like, "That was so awesome and epic." And now he's at fencing practice training. And I know telling everyone how his mom stabbed telling them how he met his heroes. He's not telling them that part. Yeah, sure. All right. What's your hero? Bring us home. Um, mine isn't mine is not that uplifting, but uh I will say it's it's an important, you know, story. Uh, so Mike, we we sometimes uh talk about TV shows as as heroes, ones, you know, that we like. Uh, and I just finished watching the new season of Fa on Netflix, which is a is a story about, you know, Israeli military operatives. Um, and this this year they they uh one of my favorite shows always, but this year they took on obviously the October 7th events in Israel and sort of in fact in two episodes had a recreation of the day. Um, and very tough to watch um, but I think an essential watch. It's the number one show on Netflix in most of the world right now. And you know, the feedback is a lot of people didn't actually, despite how much coverage October 7th has received, a lot of people are saying they didn't understand what actually happened that day until they watched this show. And so I would say it's a difficult watch, but it's a very important watch. And I I think they did a really good job with it, including the the way they, you know, did the depiction of that day is is actually like if you can't watch it, you could skip it and it won't impact the rest of the show. But again, I don't think you should do that if you could watch it. But certainly, understandably, there are people in Israel and elsewhere who have personal connections to the event who probably wouldn't be able to watch it. Yeah, they would find it. But um kudos to them. I think they did an excellent job with a very difficult set of facts to deal with obviously. So that's amazing. Such a heartbreaking and sensitive topic. I will definitely add it to my watch list. I appreciate you sharing that. Yep. All right. Well, we are through another episode. Thank you, Liz, for uh joining again. We appreciate it. And thank you uh Satie for editing and producing. And thanks to all of you for listening and watching and commenting and sharing. It's been incredible few weeks of of uh comments and views etc. So please continue doing that and we'll see you next week on Across the Bar. Thanks.