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Away We Go We Go follows the journey of Sophie & Jordan Epton, an American couple who moved to France with their 10-month old twins, and the crazy adventure that follows. We dive deep into what it's really like moving and living abroad as expats, interview others who have taken the road less traveled, provide travel tips, discuss how you can do hard things to change your own life, and everything in between.
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[00:00:00]
Hello and welcome back to another episode of The Away We Go, we Go podcast. Obviously, since I'm giving the intro, that means, hey, you guessed it. Solo episode today, giving Sophie a little break here. Definitely excited about the, the topic I'm gonna talk about today.
Give a, give a quick little update on what's been going on over here at the Epton House before I kind of jump in today. But this last weekend [00:01:00] we had some family in town, my family food from Chicago Parrot sister, nephew, and man, it was awesome. It was an awesome visit. I think obviously the biggest thing is that the, the twins are at such an interactive age that it's just way more fun for everybody.
Like they're being super cute, they're being super testy and sassy, and it's hilarious to watch them talk shit to my parents. And that's just really funny because you know, that's when you really start seeing yourself in your kids, right? They're doing what you did. That was really funny. There was some very sassy stuff happening from the twins, but overall it was just, it was good time, good hangs lots of playing.
We had a cold, rainy day, so everybody was cooped up and I think they came over that day by 11:00 AM and by two 15 I could see everybody's [00:02:00] faces. Very familiar face. 'cause I've seen it, made it a lot of times and I was like, I see how exhausted you are right now. And I just want you to know that it's still another like four or five hours before we typically talk when we have video chats with the twins and my folks on the weekends.
I was like, everybody looks so exhausted. You've only been here since 11. It's two 15 and I've been up with them since seven. I recognize it's already felt like two days worth of time with these crazies and it's still another four days left to get through this one day.
And if that didn't make any sense, then that is what happens here all the time. It was, it was funny to to see everybody being exhausted and I tried to go for my sympathy there of when they normally see my face dragging ass at six 30 at night after a full weekend day, and even [00:03:00] more so on a Sunday. But overall, good times
not enough wine. What are you gonna do? Maybe next time? But, uh, really good visit. Always love having family come by and visit. It's, it's cool. And, and I got a, I got another buddy in town who just came in today with his wife and kids. So again, it's just, it's really fun having that, you know, when you, you've moved to a really cool, very distant place and people kind of come by and get to experience your world a little bit.
Really exciting and it, it kind of segues into some of the conversations I was having both this weekend with my buddy I saw today and honestly lately been having this conversation quite a bit. Not exactly in this context, but I'm gonna kind of format a bit more for, you know, our episodes here, which is the whole idea of.
Why you're moving and [00:04:00] is it, does it fall more in the camp of, are you escaping or are you actually choosing, you know, going back, like before we moved, I remember having these thoughts like, you know, this is gonna change everything. And in some ways it did, but I was very naive in some ways. And so it, it.
It did change everything, just not in the ways that I was expecting and planning for in my head, and I think I based it off of one experience of living abroad. For those of you who've been around, you know about my, my time living in Argentina, if you're new here. After I graduated from college in the US I went and spent a little over a year living in Buenos Aires.
In Argentina and it was absolutely life changing. It was one of those, like [00:05:00] I have graduated college. I was working a job for like six months that I absolutely hated and just got the hell out of there and wanted something adventurous and new. And being in my early twenties and not really having any responsibilities other than myself, it was in my head a a perfect time to just go and.
Experience. But interestingly, I think a similar conclusion I'll say is that, you know, moving abroad and making a massive change like that doesn't fix your life. It doesn't fix the things that you're like, this sucks it, it definitely does make your life louder in that aspect. And I think there is this, whether it's a hope or misconception, if you're more of a pessimist, [00:06:00] that it will fix problems and you get to just have a clean slate and start fresh.
And again, I think that that does exist, but probably not in the way that you're thinking. I think moving abroad. I just think it's a big magnifier of who you are in what you're doing. If you're already a happy and curious and open person moving abroad's, probably gonna expand that. You know, if you find yourself in, you know, the town that you've been in for a while and you still like to join groups or try new things and meet different groups of people or.
Learn new hobbies. There's a, there's a great, I don't know if it was just like an email list or like an app or something. I can't even remember if I paid for this back before we moved a few years ago. I think it was just a meetup. It was like meetup app and you could kind of sign up.
[00:07:00] Maybe it was on their website for just all sorts of different stuff that you're interested in. And I very much remember signing up for a bunch of stuff, some of those being a French conversations in Austin, and I went to how many ways I want Zero. Zero of those. I didn't go to any of those in my head. I think in theory I was going to, whether it was the fact that, you know, we had just recently had twins and.
They were babies and we were sorting all that shit out, or I was just a hopeful guy. I like the idea of that. So maybe in your city, wherever you live, that does exist. I mean, there's always groups that, that you can meet up with and groups that you can join. If you are in that kind of. Headspace in the town that you are already living and potentially planning to leave.
I think moving abroad is absolutely going [00:08:00] to create so much opportunity. That'll be very exciting. But if you're feeling stuck or disconnected or unsure, it doesn't erase that.
I mean, I think for me, there were certain things that got better instantly. For example, I remember, you know, and I've talked about this in previous episodes, you know, we moved in the summer of 2023, but I mean, I was like, we had been talking about it for a while, and I remember it was the summer of 2020 when we were, you know, pretty fresh and still deep into COVID.
But I was ready then I remember I'm, I'm ready to move, I'm ready to move abroad again. And I remember the feelings that I had had. When I moved to Argentina and it like that whole experience for me, it was so opening and, and [00:09:00] huge for my personal growth because I just remember for me there was this feeling of like ownership in a new place where I got to meet people and make friends.
You know where I think. I was so used to my routine and my routes and everywhere I was going, everything I was doing, that if there were people along that path, I, I think I probably wasn't stopping to like connect with people. I was just kind of heads down doing my thing. And when I moved to Argentina and literally, I, I knew nothing.
I knew hardly anybody 'cause I traveled down with a couple friends, but. I mean, anytime I was going out by myself, like everything was new in every way and it was really empowering to just be a little bit more present exactly where I was. I got to really know, you know, my block and the places on my block and the people who [00:10:00] worked or lived on my block, and I would see them a lot and started to like become familiar and I remember that feeling.
Of recognition in a new place, and I loved that feeling. And anytime I've kind of been stuck in it for a bit, it's kind of that, like the water cooler thing at work when you're, you know, you're working in an office and you walk by the same people like 17 times a day. And like the first one was, Hey, what's up?
And second was like, what's up? Third one was like, mm-hmm. Fourth one, you're like, kind of like look at each other. And you do that like, you know, raised eyebrow thing. Um, and then after like the fifth or sixth time when like you're getting another coffee, going to the bathroom again, going to another meeting, passing the same people, and you're just like, I don't even wanna look at you anymore.
Why are we looking at each other? Like, yes, it's today. We both work here. Who gives a shit and I just think, you know, it's, it's so easy for that to happen. And I was [00:11:00] doing that and I remember in 2020 thinking about how much I'd kind of experienced that and how ready I was to go back to this place internally. That just felt way more fun. And I was so much more present 'cause I had to be.
But I also remember at the same time, like, like I said, you know, for me, certain things did get better instantly getting back to that feeling and, and obviously some other stuff. But there were also things that like, I don't know if they were unresolved, but I still brought shit with me. And I think that that's, again, a non revelation take on this.
But wherever you go. There you are. Wherever you go, you bring yourself with you. And so anything that you're kind of dealing with that really are more internal than just your environment, that doesn't just go away. [00:12:00] So if you're sitting there thinking about making a big move, I do think that there are a few questions that are worth being really honest about.
I think the first one. And Sophie and I have had this conversation personally and or singularly and together, but am I unhappy or ready for change because of where I am or is it how I'm living? Is it your environment? Is it the, the city, the weather?
Is it. Where in the city that you're living or the people that you're around that are either people you've been around your entire life or just people you don't vibe with, or is it your habits? Are you just complacent because you've kind of fallen into the routine and that's what you're doing? Is it your job?
You know, it can be obviously a huge one, and then you know from that, is it. Your [00:13:00] mindset, you know, again, your surroundings, your routines, any of these things, because I think the, the important things to be aware of is if it's things like your routines, those don't magically change and go away just because your address does.
Obviously, certain routines will change again for us, like we used to order groceries and now I physically. Go to five different fucking places to pick them up. There's some beauty to that. I like the idea of slowing down, not on days when I'm in a hurry or I'm like, oh shit, it's really hot and I have to walk across town and carry a bunch of shit, and it's exhausting.
Obviously those kinds of routines change, but then eventually that becomes my routine. And again, is it my habits or my mindset and how I look at those routines. You know, if you are. Kind of doing the same things just in a different place. What does that mean? Another question I think that's [00:14:00] worthwhile asking is, what do I actually think will change day to day?
What does a Tuesday look like in this new country that I'm living? Am I still working the same hours? Because of the job or just, you know, you're a entrepreneur or you, you are kind of pick your own hours. Are you still doing the same things that you were doing? You still spend a shit ton of time scrolling in the morning or in bed before you go to sleep.
Are you still super stressed about job, future money, relationships, kids, anything? Are you still super exhausted? Are these things changing? What's actually gonna change day to day? And I think that when you think about making a big move, it's really easy to imagine the highlight reel. You know, the, the Instagram life, even the, we're posting, we're not [00:15:00] posting the super crazy, exhaustive, you know, it's only two 15 and it's felt like two days already.
But we're not posting stuff like that, you know? But. The cafes, the markets, the travel, the, new adventures, the meals that you're having. I mean, that stuff is super fun and, and that's what's easy to kind of think about. But most of life is still just normal days. So I think that's a really important one to think deeply about.
What do you think will actually change day to day? And then I, I think this next question is probably the biggest one for me. I've talked about it multiple times. It goes back to our second episode about just knowing your why. But am I running from something or am I moving towards something? This, for me, is the biggest anchor question that exists.
I was always [00:16:00] really adamant from the jump talking with Sophie when we're still in Austin about making this move that we were very clearly not running away. It like the narrative was never, well, we've been here for 12 years, 15 years, et cetera, and I just don't wanna be here anymore. Or I'm bored. I'm not happy with this.
Uh, it was never about that. And I think for me, the fear part of it was if I was moving because I just needed to get away from here and I didn't really think through what I was going towards, I just knew it. I couldn't be here. I'm not saying that there's not reasons or, or circumstances where that is the best reason.
But I think when you have the privilege of choice, running from something is not really gonna solve anything because again, [00:17:00] wherever you go, you bring you with you. Is that how I said it last time? I dunno. You know, are you, are you running away from burnout? Are you running away from a job? Are you running away from a version of yourself that you don't like?
I think it can be really dangerous. Because it, it can be a really big change and you can set up expectations that are really hard to meet, if not impossible. And it's that versus are you moving towards a slower life or more time with family, or more creativity or inspiration or an opportunity to learn something.
You know, what is the reason that you're moving and why did you decide there? Why is that the best place for you? And it, it doesn't have to be right, you know, I'll kind of get back to this in a minute, but like, the amount of time you spend somewhere, I don't think really fucking matters except to you [00:18:00] because I mean, I've, I've heard different perspectives of this based on who I'm talking to.
We've been here in France now for a little over two and a half years, and. Some people are like, oh damn, wow. Two and a half years. And some people are like, oh, it's only been two and a half years. Okay. I mean, that's not a lot of time and it's just completely changes based on the conversation or who you're talking to and, and I think thinking about something as being definite can also be a big kind of like fear driven reason to either prevent you from doing it or.
Maybe drive you towards doing it. But I've had just countless people ask, oh, is this like forever for you? Are you guys going to, are you going long term? You say long term, is that gonna be like, so that's it. And it's just a really funny question to me. 'cause I'm like, okay, maybe other than your marriage, what do you [00:19:00] ever decide?
And like is forever. I'm like, I have no idea. I've never known. I'm like, yeah, we're gonna. Go and, and go for at least a year and a half to two years. That made the most sense to me, and the more Sophie and I talked about it, I think that just aligned really well. Like that's enough time for us to really fuck up some shit and fix it.
For me, it, I like, maybe it's because I'm really slow when it comes to that stuff, and it takes me a long time to like figure out, oh, this is actually not how I'm supposed to be doing it, and then I can fix it. Some people find shit out quicker than I do. But I just always felt like that was a reasonable amount of time, responsible amount of time to say, okay, does it have the mojo?
Like are, did we figure some shit out? Are we still happy? Are we taking it? Or, oh man, that was an excruciating year and a half and I like, now I am running [00:20:00] from something or. Honestly deciding something new to to run towards because this just does not align. And I think that was kind of the mindset going into it, which is, I have no idea what this is gonna be like.
I don't know if I'm gonna love it. I don't know if I'm gonna hate it. I remember in Argentina, there were certain days where I was like, how you gonna get the fuck outta here? Like, this is not for me. And then other days where I was like, who is that stupid idiot saying shit like that this is the greatest time of my life.
So I, I mean, I, I'll die on that hill, you know, know your why if you're moving somewhere and if you're running from something, just be careful and, and think through like how impactful that is. Again, I'm not saying that that's wrong because it absolutely could be a very legitimate reason for moving, but still something to think through.
You know, is moving, gonna actually fix. In your brain what you're, you're trying to [00:21:00] change, or are you actually moving towards something that excites you and electrifies you and makes you feel like I am, I wanna be a child again and learn and explore and adventure. And I think if, if you can and have the privilege to do so, that is by far the best reason to make a move.
It's important to talk about a couple of the signs for both of those. So a few signs that you might be escaping. This isn't, you know, definitive. I'm not like, this isn't coming from place of judgment. I think everybody has a different circumstance that leads to these decisions. But again, I, I also think a lot of us have a bit of this in us.
I think the, the first one is I just need a fresh start, but no real clarity beyond that. I think that that [00:22:00] really falls into this like escaping category where like a fresh start sounds amazing, but if you don't know what you want it to look like and what you're going to do, you can really easily end up just recreating the same exact life, just somewhere else.
That could be totally fine, or it could be absolutely miserable because now it's way less routine. It's way less familiar. Could be way harder in a lot of ways. I think the, the second one is same habits, different country. It's a big one, right? Same work patterns, same avoidance, same coping mechanisms. You know, if, if nothing internal changes, the external move can only do so much.
It's gonna change things, but you know, it's not gonna just completely renovate you. And again, I've had some conversations with friends who are going through it right now [00:23:00] who've kind of experienced that, where they made a move and like the things that changed were like the obvious things, like how they're eating because the food is different and where they're going, but like their mentality.
Where they spend their time, like nothing's changed. They're just doing the same shit. And it's, some of the conversations have led to that, but also it's just kind of evident, like the happiness that they were like, put on this, you know, put in this picture frame and hung up on the wall. Like, it, it doesn't, it's not really there because nothing really changed.
They're, they're doing the same thing. I think that also kinda leads into the next one, which is just expecting happiness to just click you land and all of a sudden, hey, wow, everything just feels right. There is a honeymoon phase sometimes. Depends. You know, what you're moving for, where you're going, what that [00:24:00] looks like.
But even when there is a honeymoon phase, real life bullshit kicks back in. You still have to have routine. You still are going to be working, be doing things that are administrative and it's just, it's not a vacation. And so that honeymoon phase when that does eventually kind of go away and real life kicks back in, you know, how close to your expectations and your ability to manage them as they change, how close do you feel to that?
So those are really important. You know, if, if you're thinking about your mentality and your motivation now signs that it might actually be the right move. There's moments where you do get there and you're like, oh my gosh, this actually feels aligned and you are just.
Motivated completely differently. So I think the first one is, signs that it, it might be the [00:25:00] right move, is that you're already making intentional changes, changing routines, again, beyond just the surface level, right? Like I talked about shopping, I'm just using that as an example. Obviously I've had to change the routine of doing that, but.
I have friends in most of the shops now that I go to along the way. My talk about my butcher before it's like a 25, 20 6-year-old guys cool as shit. I become really good friends with him. He ended up, him and his, some of his buddies ended up helping us move when we moved apartments. He's let me use his back office when I had to work super late nights and needed good wifi.
He literally gave me the key to the butcher shop, but he is like, Hey, just lock up when you're done. And. Drop the key off in the morning, and it's really funny to be in a, a Zoom meeting with somebody when you have like butchers walking behind you with like giant slabs of beef ribs and stuff like that.
But, you [00:26:00] know, I, I've become really close with these people and my routine of shopping isn't just. You know, for labor of restocking, you know, it's, it's part of my day. I get to go and see some friends chat bullshit with them, talk about some fun stuff, practice my French, they practice their English. You know, it's, it's like for me, a big part of this move was again, going back to that feeling of like really getting familiar and.
Knowing people and, and learning that. And I think the fact that we've, yeah, I've had opportunities to do that, has been really, really fun. Other signs about making intentional changes are just prioritizing differently, thinking differently, you know, your move again, it becomes the extension of that.
. The second one, again, just goes back to like, you know, what you're moving towards. It's [00:27:00] not, I want out, it's, I want slower mornings. I want more time with my kids. I want a different pace. I want, to do more outdoor stuff or join groups where language is, is driving the connection where I'm meeting.
Expats and immigrants from other countries and opening up myself to new foods and new things, and, and I want that. And that's, that's really important for me. I mean, I think, you know, there's a lot of just gravity around feeling that and just saying, I, I really want this in my life. I want this to become the part of my personality that is activated.
Then I think another really big one is how, okay, you are with discomfort. This is actually a really important one because discomfort [00:28:00] shows up in so many different ways. The obvious one, depending on where you're moving, language barriers, I mean, two and over, two and a half years Here, my, my comprehension, I mean.
I joke and say that it's garbage. It's not, I can understand people, I can have pretty decent one-to-one conversations, but when people start speaking fast, they lose me. I literally, this morning, I remember I was walking out with the twins and saw one of our neighbors this really sweet, you know, slightly older lady that.
It was like insanely smiley. You know, she's a grandma, so she's got grandkids, she's kind of got that vibe. And she was walking out on her way to work and like we were talking, and then she got, I don't know, like 10, 15 feet away from me and then turned around and said some other thing. And whatever my response was to it, I very clearly did not fucking understand anything she said.
And I responded with like, oh yeah, we, uh, and she kind of made this, like [00:29:00] this face and like kind of threw her hand up, like not, not. Rudely or, or frustrating, but kind of like, yeah, yeah. Okay. You didn't understand anything I just said. Yep. Okay. See ya. And I completely caught that and I was like, yeah, nope.
Didn't understand anything you just said and then you just walked away because you're like, you don't understand me, I'm just gonna go. It happens all the time. And for me at this point, it's just funny. I don't give a shit. It doesn't affect, my mood. It doesn't affect my.
Feelings of intelligence or lack thereof. It just is what it is. Again, I, I naively moved here thinking, oh, Spanish wasn't that hard for me because I took Spanish classes at the university three hours a day, four days a week for four months, and then lived in a CIA with, you know, 30 Argentinians, two Colombians, and me.
At that time in my life, I had this, the capacity to do that. I don't have that right now. It's just so much slower and I, I thought I would be able to pick it up [00:30:00] much more quickly and I've been picking it up still hard. So anyways, I think your okayness with the discomfort of language is just massive. But there's other things too, like loneliness.
If you're coming from a place where you have a group of friends, or I think these days a lot of us have multiple, like little mini groups of friends here and there, and you know, on any different days or nights you can kind of make plans with different people and things like that.
But when you're moving somewhere new, it's just harder. It can often be very transient. We've gotten to know really great people here in the last two and a half years that we're at the later. Stage in their travels or living here and then moved for whatever reason. And then other people just haven't been here that long and then left.
And you realize you're constantly having to like make new friends, even though there's some people that do stick around and, and you have those. But you [00:31:00] know, depending on your circumstances, loneliness can come in a lot of different ways and, and that can be really uncomfortable when you're so far away from familiarity.
Speaking of that, I think just not knowing how things work, there's just, if you expect things to be easy, it's just going to feel disappointing, period. And if you expect it to be uncomfortable, it actually feels like growth. So I don't think the question is ever really, should I move abroad? I think the better question or a better question.
Is, am I trying to escape, fill in the blank, my life, relationships, my job, this or that? Or am I intentionally trying to build a different one? The move itself isn't what changes everything. It's really who you are [00:32:00] inside of it.
This is one that I'm, I'm very passionate about because I think just mindset in general is, is so important. And when you are making bold moves, I think that when you are not kind of on guard in being intentional that. Maybe it's a little dramatic to say the shit days are, are easier to come by, but I think it's, it's just very easy to be derailed and it to feel a bit like an undertow where you kind of can get pummeled over and over and over again.
And it can be so exhausting. And Sophie and I have these mindset conversations all the time, and I think it's just really important, especially as you're gearing up to. Make big change in your life. I encourage you to kind of think through some of the intentionality and, and the reasons of why you're doing it.
Whether it's making a pros and cons list [00:33:00] or writing down, just some, some thoughts about,, what you're hoping to get from it. But actually take that time to really think about, what is the purpose of this. And how do I know when it's gonna feel like it was successful and it was the right decision?
And when in doubt, we're always here for support and you can do it and it's super fun and crazy. Please reach out, share some stories, DM us, share, like, comment on the, the episodes that you love.
Let us know are there topics that we haven't talked about that you'd love to hear? You know, or even some recommendations. Always open to that. So thanks for the time. Appreciate all of you.
Have a great day.
[00:34:00]