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Interviews with top marketers sharing tactical tips, strategies, and lessons learned to help you grow your business. Hosted by Dave Gerhardt, founder of Exit Five, former CMO, and author of Founder Brand. Learn more at exitfive.com
Dave [0:00:01]: You're listening to The Dave Gerhardt Show.
Dave [0:00:02]: Hey, My guest on this episode is Jonathan Hunt sees the VP of content and media at Hubspot.
Dave [0:00:22]: His team is probably the biggest and most influential media operation in all of B2B right now.
Dave [0:00:27]: They have seventy people.
Dave [0:00:28]: They're putting out ninety five long form videos a month across seventeen different Youtube channels and getting Hubspot in front of fifty million people.
Dave [0:00:36]: And the way Jonathan thinks about his job is simple.
Dave [0:00:39]: Doesn't mean it's easy, but it's simple.
Dave [0:00:41]: He said, I run a media company inside of software company.
Dave [0:00:44]: I like that.
Dave [0:00:44]: Know a lot of people are thinking about content and media.
Dave [0:00:47]: In this world of Ai.
Dave [0:00:48]: We get into how he runs a network of a hundred and fifty creators, how he tells the measurement story to the CFO, how do they prove that all this stuff is working.
Dave [0:00:56]: Andy talks about the Ai clipping engine his team built in a six week Sprint and why they run six weeks sprints now on the content team.
Dave [0:01:03]: So let's get it.
Dave [0:01:04]: Here's my conversation with Jonathan from Hubspot.
Dave [0:01:06]: Alright.
Dave [0:01:07]: Excited to have Jonathan on, Jonathan new friend.
Dave [0:01:10]: We broke bread over too much pizza the other night to...
Dave [0:01:13]: I haven't eaten since our dinner that.
Dave [0:01:16]: Yeah.
Jonathan [0:01:17]: I don't only think I consume that many carbs since college for it.
Dave [0:01:20]: That was tough.
Dave [0:01:21]: I had a come to and then, like, leave there and have to get in in bed and go home.
Dave [0:01:25]: That was a tough thing, but big energy in New York.
Dave [0:01:28]: Right?
Dave [0:01:29]: Nick coming off that the knicks win.
Dave [0:01:31]: Yeah.
Jonathan [0:01:32]: Oh my god.
Jonathan [0:01:32]: I mix made it in five.
Jonathan [0:01:34]: Yeah.
Jonathan [0:01:34]: It was a it's quite a moment.
Jonathan [0:01:37]: Like, I don't think I'd experienced that since maybe, like, oh eight, Obama or even, like Biden, like, people just, like, swarming the streets and, like, jumping on cars and cheering.
Jonathan [0:01:45]: Right.
Dave [0:01:46]: Did your kids did you stay up with your kids and watch it?
Jonathan [0:01:49]: My youngest wasn't able to stay up that late.
Jonathan [0:01:51]: But my oldest did.
Jonathan [0:01:52]: And, yeah.
Jonathan [0:01:53]: I don't worry about for the rest of his life.
Dave [0:01:54]: That's fun.
Dave [0:01:55]: That's fun fun time to be there.
Dave [0:01:56]: Okay.
Dave [0:01:57]: So you're on the pod, and you, work for company a lot of us know Hubspot.
Dave [0:02:01]: You're the VP of content and media, and I thought it's interesting to have you on the pod because man, and I just said this to you backstage, So it's gonna sound like I'm I'm repeating it.
Dave [0:02:10]: But, like, this is, you know, so many people in our in our audience.
Dave [0:02:14]: Like, we came up in this era of, like, hub spot, inbound marketing, create content.
Dave [0:02:18]: I pride myself I'm being a content marketer.
Dave [0:02:20]: And now it's like, all that stuff has changed.
Dave [0:02:23]: And what does a company like, Hubspot do when traffic goes away.
Dave [0:02:27]: And then, you know, a year ago, everyone in in this world was like, posting, like, you know Hubspot traffic and all this stuff, but in parallel, you're building up this, like, new way of doing marketing, which is this, content and media machine that you run.
Dave [0:02:39]: So I want to have Jonathan on to come talk about that.
Dave [0:02:41]: And also, hopefully leave you with two or three things that you can take and apply to your business.
Dave [0:02:46]: So content and media lessons from a guy doing at a really high level in B2B.
Dave [0:02:50]: Can I can we give you two or three, you know, ideas you can you can take back to your team?
Dave [0:02:54]: I get a lot of messages, people saying, like, hey, Listen to your episode with George from ramp, and I shared it across the team and so, like, usually, people are sharing these things.
Dave [0:03:01]: So we'll we're gonna talk through through that lens.
Dave [0:03:03]: Okay?
Jonathan [0:03:04]: Yeah.
Jonathan [0:03:04]: Yeah.
Jonathan [0:03:05]: Thanks Me.
Dave [0:03:06]: Okay.
Dave [0:03:06]: First, just tee up, like, what is your role?
Dave [0:03:08]: What is your purview at Hubspot.
Dave [0:03:10]: What is VP content and media?
Dave [0:03:11]: I think you said to them and, like, there's seventy people on the team.
Dave [0:03:14]: People nerd out on that stuff just like your kinda org chart.
Jonathan [0:03:17]: Yeah.
Jonathan [0:03:17]: Yeah.
Jonathan [0:03:17]: So, I run a media company within a software company.
Jonathan [0:03:20]: And you're right...
Jonathan [0:03:20]: Yeah, it's roughly seventy folks, but what we do is we create content across multiple different formats and channels that get Hubspot, and our stories is in front of fifty million people I've been seen on month and convert tens of thousands of them into new leads and ultimately M q else for our business.
Jonathan [0:03:39]: And we've been at it now for five years.
Jonathan [0:03:42]: But obviously, before that, we were very much invested in the inbound Seo game.
Jonathan [0:03:46]: And luckily, you know, we had started to hedge against just so much over reliance on search, and we're investing in creators and podcast podcasts, and...
Jonathan [0:03:54]: But Youtube and really, over the last three years have been just, like, tripling down on how can we just reach audiences across some more touch points where they are as opposed to just being so so over reliant on Google.
Dave [0:04:06]: So at the beginning of that, that's a great good overview.
Dave [0:04:08]: That's helpful.
Dave [0:04:08]: At the beginning of that you said, the first line got you said, I run a media company inside of a software company.
Dave [0:04:14]: What is it about that framing that makes us different than say, a marketing team having a couple people on a content team, and how has that change how you operate and what you're supposed to do?
Jonathan [0:04:24]: Yeah.
Jonathan [0:04:24]: I mean, I think media companies always think about creating content that provides entertainment and value for audiences, and I think oftentimes marketing teams that do content, think about product stories and think about it it as being a product marketing, or brand marketing, which I feel like it's just a completely different approach to editorial and content.
Jonathan [0:04:45]: And one I think serves is really important need, but like, think about how you can engage youtube content on Instagram or Youtube.
Jonathan [0:04:54]: You're probably not reading and watching or listening to product marketing stories, You're probably, you know, watching the Exit Five cloud or marketing us the grain or my first million or starter story, and those are oftentimes very much journalist, heavily research, but entertaining in high value stories that I'll allow us to engage audiences, but then ultimately convert them into new customers for...
Dave [0:05:16]: Well, it's like, let me let me translate.
Dave [0:05:17]: It's like, they work this is always the the j, like, the the thing that that's hard about being a marketer.
Dave [0:05:23]: Like, the things that work as a consumer.
Dave [0:05:25]: Yeah.
Dave [0:05:27]: Listen to my first million waiver.
Dave [0:05:28]: Okay.
Dave [0:05:28]: That's that's separate.
Dave [0:05:29]: It's a separate thing.
Dave [0:05:30]: That...
Dave [0:05:30]: But then if you bring them inside of the company, then they have to be a demand gen channel and they have to produce you know, x number of leads directly from the that show.
Dave [0:05:38]: And so everything gets kinda measured differently and, like, that's where this all breaks down.
Dave [0:05:42]: Was like, we all we all see the content that we react to personally, but I think for a lot of people listening, it's hard to take that.
Dave [0:05:47]: And then, you know, convince our bosses that, like, this should be our approach to content versus everything.
Dave [0:05:52]: Right?
Jonathan [0:05:53]: Yeah.
Jonathan [0:05:53]: Yeah.
Jonathan [0:05:53]: Yeah.
Jonathan [0:05:54]: Yeah.
Jonathan [0:05:54]: And I think there's a bounce just strike.
Jonathan [0:05:55]: Right?
Jonathan [0:05:56]: Like, like, you can't go completely in one direction or completely another other direction Otherwise, it doesn't make any business sense or does actually get any scale.
Jonathan [0:06:03]: But I think the balance, and this is, like, a, you know, quote from from our founders, you know, and Brian is, like, you wanna give value before extracting value, and that's kinda how we think about all content that we create is, like, how can we give you something that allows you to do your job better or learn to excel in your career in ways that, you know, previously would impossible for you, and then ask you to do something for us, which is oftentimes becoming a lead.
Jonathan [0:06:29]: And so It's definitely like a strategic North star for every single approach to content that we do at across all channels.
Dave [0:06:36]: Okay.
Dave [0:06:36]: So let's talk about the mechanics of this of the media company?
Dave [0:06:40]: I'm curious like, what roles and motions and functions?
Dave [0:06:43]: How does how does the machine work?
Jonathan [0:06:45]: Yeah.
Jonathan [0:06:45]: So it's structured, not too dissimilar from, you know, B2B media company that you have a content division.
Jonathan [0:06:50]: And so that's your video producers, writers, editors, podcast post, on screen and on air talent.
Jonathan [0:06:58]: You a monetization engine.
Jonathan [0:06:59]: So they're creating all the the lead magnets, the reports, the agents, the skills, the things that, ultimately, we convert people around to pull them into our funnel and do a lot of, like, rate optimization and, patch trafficking.
Jonathan [0:07:13]: They have an audience development team, and that's effectively a marketing team within our media organization that's responsible for growing our channels around our brands, both paid or organic, media partnerships, s dedication, but also our creator network, which but a hundred and fifty creators business, such a matter experts across sales, entrepreneurship, Ai marketing that we partner with, in a bunch of different ways, via creating original content together, straight up sponsorships or in some cases, acquisitions, but that's kinda how it's built.
Jonathan [0:07:43]: And, you know, again, roughly seventy people with an content.
Dave [0:07:47]: So...
Dave [0:07:47]: So is it kinda like the shift is, like, from from back end of the day used to be, like, there was the Hubspot blog and a bunch of people wrote for the blog and that was the main traffic driver is now the model you have a hundred and fifty creators.
Dave [0:07:58]: Those are the people that are making the content and your team is behind the scenes booking the guests, editing the clips.
Dave [0:08:05]: Is it is it...
Dave [0:08:05]: Is that it?
Jonathan [0:08:06]: Yeah.
Jonathan [0:08:06]: I mean, it's definitely part of it.
Jonathan [0:08:07]: And so you're right.
Jonathan [0:08:08]: You know I think the thing that you're kind of pulling out is that in the old world, there were these sort of corporate blogs that, you know, you would run the Seo game and pump out hundreds of beats of content and rank can get a lot of traffic.
Jonathan [0:08:19]: And I think part of part of this shift that we're all seeing is that people no longer wanna hear from these kinda like, voiceless brands.
Jonathan [0:08:25]: They wanna hear more directly from, like, you.
Jonathan [0:08:27]: Right?
Jonathan [0:08:28]: And so they're seeking out folks that are sources of trust, experts in their field.
Jonathan [0:08:33]: They wanna hear directly from them and be inspired by them.
Jonathan [0:08:36]: And so it's a big part of, like, how you partner with creators, but also how you think about the content we produce ourselves and the people that we recall and scream.
Jonathan [0:08:43]: So when you're partnering with creators, for example, you're right, more oftentimes booking them, working with them collaboratively on content creation, lead magnets, bringing them out to un bound, which is our enough physical event in Boston every year.
Jonathan [0:08:57]: And in some cases, clipping that content and helping them do things that they can't do as a.
Jonathan [0:09:02]: Right?
Jonathan [0:09:02]: Like, a still.
Jonathan [0:09:03]: It's like, it's just you, you know, like, you don't have the cap Well, you don't have the distribution.
Jonathan [0:09:07]: You don't have the Url experience as an opportunity to speak.
Jonathan [0:09:10]: You don't have the clipping engine, you know, that's a big part of what I think creators see as a value added for our partnerships.
Dave [0:09:18]: Yeah.
Dave [0:09:18]: I think it's interesting because it's not just that you have people, like, host a guest webinar every now and then, like, you've literally kind blanket.
Dave [0:09:26]: You've created this network to reach lots of different people in your target market by, like, aggregating creators together.
Dave [0:09:33]: And I think it's an interesting model where even if you're at a smaller company, he used to be, like, you have to have the company blog and the company podcast.
Dave [0:09:40]: But like, let's say you, you know, you you makes...
Dave [0:09:42]: You sell to accounting, or that's a bad example.
Dave [0:09:45]: That they're...
Dave [0:09:46]: I don't know how long that...
Jonathan [0:09:47]: I'm sure there's some good accounting creators out Don't I don't know that's gonna be around.
Jonathan [0:09:51]: It's not my cup Tv.
Jonathan [0:09:52]: I'm sure you're out there.
Jonathan [0:09:53]: Yeah.
Dave [0:09:54]: You sell the Hr.
Dave [0:09:55]: You if you...
Dave [0:09:55]: You know, you sell them to Hr.
Dave [0:09:56]: Right?
Dave [0:09:57]: Like, you could now find people that are creating content around Hr and, like, make them part of your creator mob as opposed to, like, who are we gonna find in house to to be able to do this And I don't know if you know the the guys from click up at all, but, Chris, who runs, like, their social.
Dave [0:10:13]: He was on my podcast recently.
Dave [0:10:15]: And he had a great example of just, like, people are off like, how do I find a creator a cool Easy you have a roster if you bank Cal like Cup hubspot?
Dave [0:10:21]: How I find creators.
Dave [0:10:22]: Chris is like, I go to my four you page, and I look at someone whose videos, like, funny and kinda popped off a little bit.
Dave [0:10:29]: But I might...
Dave [0:10:30]: They might see a video that has a million views, But I go to their account, and they only have, like, you know, six thousand followers.
Dave [0:10:35]: He's like, I reach out to them and I'm like hey, Would you do a one month contract with us and and make five videos about, you know, Hr for us.
Dave [0:10:42]: It's, like, Those things are applicable.
Dave [0:10:43]: I think it's cool to to r on some of that.
Jonathan [0:10:46]: Yeah.
Jonathan [0:10:46]: Yeah.
Jonathan [0:10:46]: A hundred percent.
Jonathan [0:10:47]: I mean, it's, like, the old, build partner buy Conundrum.
Jonathan [0:10:50]: It's like, sure you could build it.
Jonathan [0:10:52]: You could spend eighteen months trying to build it, and you probably should build in parallel, but That can't be your only strategy.
Jonathan [0:10:57]: Otherwise, you lose eighteen months.
Jonathan [0:10:58]: You can partner.
Dave [0:11:00]: I think it's a just...
Dave [0:11:00]: It's a blocking point for so many people to be, like, who's the creator gonna be?
Dave [0:11:04]: Like, who is the perfect dream creator?
Dave [0:11:06]: You know?
Jonathan [0:11:07]: Yeah.
Jonathan [0:11:07]: No.
Jonathan [0:11:07]: No.
Jonathan [0:11:08]: Exactly.
Jonathan [0:11:08]: I mean, there's like, great tools out there that are just, like, really cheap, allow you to, to use you know, natural language search to be able to find people that, like, fit your Ic and your category.
Dave [0:11:19]: What's one?
Dave [0:11:19]: People always ask me that actually.
Dave [0:11:21]: What's it what what's the tool?
Jonathan [0:11:22]: Passion fruit, passion fruits is a good one?
Jonathan [0:11:24]: You know, passion fruit is spelled f r o t?
Jonathan [0:11:26]: I mean, that you can just go in there and set thresholds for price, size, category, etcetera, do look likes and find those folks that, you know, maybe not might might not be, like, five hundred thousand subs or followers that are like, ten thousand.
Jonathan [0:11:42]: Five thousand.
Jonathan [0:11:43]: And that's probably actually more impactful, like, working with those like nano creators than working with those larger creators?
Dave [0:11:49]: If you're somebody listening to this, how do we paint the, like, landscape from what are we trying to get people to do?
Dave [0:11:56]: Is it like, it used to be driver on your web site, so you can get a bunch of traffic there, you know, cookie them, do that hopefully play.
Dave [0:12:02]: But so many of your channels now are podcast video.
Dave [0:12:06]: So how can we...
Dave [0:12:06]: How can we frame the strategy?
Jonathan [0:12:08]: Yeah.
Jonathan [0:12:08]: I think in the old world, content was kind of seen as site two things.
Jonathan [0:12:12]: One was, like, it was a demand driver.
Jonathan [0:12:13]: Right?
Jonathan [0:12:14]: It's like, you kind of, like, did your search analysis, got the Ms feed for keywords, reverse engineer the content and then put it on the world.
Jonathan [0:12:21]: And then there was kinda, like, the sort of thought leadership content stream, which maybe got couple clicks and was more just like your CEO talking about whatever they wanted to talk about...
Dave [0:12:30]: You get a guest column a big win would be, like getting a guest column for your CEO and, like, Ink magazine or something, you know?
Jonathan [0:12:36]: Yeah.
Jonathan [0:12:36]: Something like that you were probably paying for.
Jonathan [0:12:37]: Right?
Jonathan [0:12:38]: Or something like that.
Jonathan [0:12:39]: How we think about content today is kind threefold.
Jonathan [0:12:42]: One, it's still a demand driver.
Jonathan [0:12:44]: Right?
Jonathan [0:12:45]: Like, it still has to do short term business for the business, and we've got really good at building out that monetization motion and being able to create content influenced by youtube search trends, Google search trends, Ai search trends to be able to put our best foot forward and beach like the highest quality, highest intent audience.
Dave [0:13:02]: I'll make a note to come.
Dave [0:13:03]: I wanna talk about measurements separately.
Dave [0:13:04]: So you're on this good rift.
Dave [0:13:06]: Like, there's these three three content, three three kind of buckets there.
Dave [0:13:09]: So it has to be a demand.
Dave [0:13:10]: It has to be a demand driver.
Jonathan [0:13:12]: Yeah.
Jonathan [0:13:12]: Yeah.
Jonathan [0:13:12]: Demand gen, one is influence play.
Jonathan [0:13:15]: Right?
Jonathan [0:13:15]: So like, if you think about the current buying cycle.
Jonathan [0:13:19]: Right?
Jonathan [0:13:19]: It's longer than ever oftentimes there's, like, six to seven decision makers in the room, and there's about twenty nine steps.
Jonathan [0:13:25]: I think that was like the like like latest Ka research.
Jonathan [0:13:29]: Right?
Jonathan [0:13:29]: So, like, it's it's a lot more convoluted than ever before.
Jonathan [0:13:32]: And so in order to actually stay top of mind and be part of their day one list, you have to be in their feeds.
Jonathan [0:13:37]: Nonstop consistently, you know, for the ninety five percent of the year when they're not the market to buy our Crm.
Jonathan [0:13:42]: And so being able to sort of cover as much surface areas as possible.
Jonathan [0:13:46]: The top of the funnel is equally as important as generating immediate demand.
Jonathan [0:13:50]: And then there's this sort of, like, middle tier where it's like, can you generate inventory that is compounding over time, but something that that you're not having to buy.
Jonathan [0:14:01]: Right?
Jonathan [0:14:01]: So we call I'm kind think about this is like, equivalent ballot.
Jonathan [0:14:04]: Right?
Jonathan [0:14:04]: So, like, you are being able to through your media investments generate organic impressions that otherwise, your Dr team, your payment a team would have had to buy.
Jonathan [0:14:12]: And there's a value to that.
Jonathan [0:14:14]: Right?
Dave [0:14:15]: I get it.
Dave [0:14:15]: And then I think it's important to hear you say that content out of the gate, it has to drive demand.
Dave [0:14:21]: I think that whenever we talk about doing the fun stuff brand, content, influencers, I think you...
Dave [0:14:27]: We...
Dave [0:14:27]: It's easy to get lost in the clouds a little bit and it's, like, at the end of the day, if you're part of a company and you're part of the marketing team and a company, your job is to sell things for that company.
Dave [0:14:36]: That's what the and marketing team is employed to do.
Dave [0:14:39]: And so the content ultimately has to sell things.
Dave [0:14:41]: Yes.
Dave [0:14:41]: But we we often con like having to sell things with being shitty.
Jonathan [0:14:47]: Yeah.
Jonathan [0:14:47]: Yeah.
Jonathan [0:14:48]: I you'd be boring of having to kinda have, like, a, like, a bunch of talking points to be able to, like, sell a product.
Jonathan [0:14:54]: And I think...
Jonathan [0:14:54]: That's kinda where it.
Dave [0:14:55]: Yeah.
Dave [0:14:55]: Or, like, it has to be a gated white paper type of thing or it has to be so perfectly direct response measurable.
Dave [0:15:04]: When, like, I don't know.
Dave [0:15:06]: I I was trying to pull this up while you were while you're were talking earlier, but, like, even just the ability so so on the on the influence or just being relevant play, you're not a bravo guy as we...
Dave [0:15:15]: As we've learned.
Dave [0:15:16]: But Hubspot, you hopped right on this the whole summer house drama and snagged Kyle Cook to be the spokesperson for the Hubspot Ae Launch.
Dave [0:15:26]: You know, It's, like, things like that.
Dave [0:15:27]: I love.
Dave [0:15:28]: And I think that's an example of, like, you you did something creative.
Dave [0:15:31]: Yes.
Dave [0:15:31]: You...
Jonathan [0:15:32]: Like, you just gonna be part of the conversation.
Jonathan [0:15:33]: You gotta be part the conversation.
Jonathan [0:15:35]: And it's harder to measure or sometimes.
Jonathan [0:15:36]: Right?
Dave [0:15:37]: And you're gonna need to do more of that stuff now.
Jonathan [0:15:39]: You have to a hundred percent.
Jonathan [0:15:41]: Because everyone else playing the other game.
Jonathan [0:15:43]: Right?
Jonathan [0:15:43]: Everyone else is trying to find efficiency gains through Ai, and that's obviously important.
Jonathan [0:15:48]: And as a result, are kinda of sacrificing, marketing for the sake of marketing and being part of, you know, the Zeitgeist guys and, like, fishing with the fish are.
Jonathan [0:15:55]: I just...
Jonathan [0:15:55]: Think group, you know, probably see a lot more of that, hopefully from from Us and more marketing teams.
Dave [0:16:00]: And to anyone listening saying, like, wow, do yeah, you know, they had the budget to do that.
Dave [0:16:04]: Well, I had Ryan who's a VP of marketing at rip lang on a couple months ago, and he weird were talking about scrappy ideas.
Dave [0:16:10]: And he's like, you know what?
Dave [0:16:11]: You know, our one of our best performing pieces of content has been right now.
Dave [0:16:14]: We were doing a webinar with someone at in Hr at Heinz Ketchup, and our content team, like, went down to the street on New York, filmed a silly little promo video, like getting a hotdog dog with Heinz Ketchup, and we trim that, like, the organic post popped off, and then we put paid behind that.
Dave [0:16:29]: And it's like that this is what the content team of the future needs to be doing.
Dave [0:16:32]: It's being plugged in to social and trends.
Dave [0:16:35]: It's not just the long form stuff.
Jonathan [0:16:39]: No.
Jonathan [0:16:39]: No.
Jonathan [0:16:39]: No.
Jonathan [0:16:39]: No Not at all.
Jonathan [0:16:40]: I think you know, we talked a little bit about that.
Jonathan [0:16:42]: The other night too where, you know, content isn't just this, like, nicely package long form, you know, sixteen minute episode.
Jonathan [0:16:51]: It's...
Jonathan [0:16:51]: I mean, we're you're seeing them a lot more value these days it's from the clipping of it all.
Jonathan [0:16:55]: And so, you know, whenever we think about that that approach, it's, like, you know, on a monthly basis, we're producing ninety five long form videos across seventeen Youtube channels, but those ninety plus videos are turning into thousands of short form clips that then flood the zone across Instagram and X in Linkedin, I'm an Ig g, which, you know, again, kinda help you stay top of mind for audiences that maybe aren't watching along the form, but are just getting the clips from their that preferred social network.
Dave [0:17:22]: Let's talk a little bit about measurement.
Dave [0:17:24]: So if you're active around all these different touch points.
Dave [0:17:27]: Like, okay.
Dave [0:17:28]: I gotta show.
Dave [0:17:28]: I got a Youtube channel, I got a podcast.
Dave [0:17:30]: I got ads, I got videos, how do you answer the the measurement question?
Dave [0:17:35]: You know, I I know you gotta go stand up in front of...
Dave [0:17:39]: Yeah.
Dave [0:17:39]: I know if you have to do.
Dave [0:17:40]: But somebody...
Dave [0:17:40]: So somebody has to stand up in front of Yam at Hubspot.
Jonathan [0:17:43]: Yes.
Jonathan [0:17:43]: Those a public of CFO.
Jonathan [0:17:44]: Yes.
Jonathan [0:17:45]: The
Dave [0:17:46]: and be like, here's why we all that Youtube stuff, Like, Here's how why we have all these creators.
Dave [0:17:51]: How do you talk about it at that level?
Jonathan [0:17:53]: Someone asked me this like kind of thing either other day.
Jonathan [0:17:55]: And and my response is, like, you have to come prepared with the business rationale and the thesis and the measurement plan.
Jonathan [0:18:02]: Like, Like, even if you don't have it perfect, like you have to have point of view on that.
Jonathan [0:18:06]: And so how we've historically thought about it has been very much leads driven right as, like, first a leading indicator of what's working on what's not, but then ultimately, a a metric that we can easily optimize against.
Jonathan [0:18:18]: Right because it's like, a media, you know how to like, interpret that data and use that to inform subsequent content you're producing.
Jonathan [0:18:24]: But over the time, we've got a lot better at, just measuring further down funnel.
Jonathan [0:18:29]: So a lead to a Q to a next customer adds, Mr, the lifetime value, etcetera, etcetera, and having, like a pretty good point of view on that even though it's not exact science and can sometimes be a bit more inferred.
Jonathan [0:18:42]: But then also the ram value.
Jonathan [0:18:43]: Right?
Jonathan [0:18:44]: Like, to go out and buy fifty million impressions or sixty million impressions every single month, like, that's not an insignificant amount of cash.
Jonathan [0:18:52]: Right?
Jonathan [0:18:52]: But we generate that organically through our program and head count investments and that compounds over time that continues to scale.
Jonathan [0:18:59]: And so you know, being able to understand, like, how does that influence awareness, attribution, intent to buy favor of your brand and being able to have a point of view on that aspect of it.
Jonathan [0:19:09]: And then the thing we talked talk about a second ago is like, equivalent that You're like, you could go out and buy that or you could invest in media and have a on pound over time.
Jonathan [0:19:16]: What are the effective cost saving this as a result of building out your content strategy.
Jonathan [0:19:20]: And so that's how we sort of package it and present it back, and I think it makes sense.
Jonathan [0:19:26]: And I think you're starting to see more media teams operate that way?
Dave [0:19:28]: That's a good one for the you listen?
Dave [0:19:29]: I I know I get a a ton of messages, you know, emails, whatever about...
Dave [0:19:33]: The whenever we talk about content?
Dave [0:19:35]: It's always like, okay.
Dave [0:19:36]: You.
Dave [0:19:36]: Great.
Dave [0:19:36]: But how do I how do I tell the measurement story, and I like how you CFO and the Coo, they they like when you can quantify...
Dave [0:19:43]: When you can name something and quantify, like, when you're comparing it.
Dave [0:19:45]: If you don't have this perfect attribution on it, but you're giving in a comparison to some dollars, and we could have spent x and we basically got this for free, You know, if they don't think about the head count and all that stuff.
Jonathan [0:19:55]: Yeah.
Jonathan [0:19:55]: The...
Jonathan [0:19:55]: Yeah.
Jonathan [0:19:55]: The cost savings Yeah.
Jonathan [0:19:57]: Exactly.
Dave [0:19:58]: I like thinking it that.
Dave [0:19:59]: But...
Dave [0:19:59]: Okay.
Dave [0:20:00]: So but if you do that, so we believe in that we wanna get reach, We wanna get awareness that, you know, that would would've have cut...
Dave [0:20:05]: We got fifty million impressions, but it all has to go somewhere.
Dave [0:20:08]: And I I listen to some podcast.
Dave [0:20:10]: I hear.
Dave [0:20:11]: It seems like your play is like, you have these Hubspot offers.
Dave [0:20:14]: So all of the creators and content.
Dave [0:20:17]: They're not all driving back to the website, although you get some brand affinity download the.
Dave [0:20:21]: But you are trying to drive all these content channels and creators back to an offer of some kind aren't you?
Jonathan [0:20:26]: Yeah.
Jonathan [0:20:26]: Yeah.
Jonathan [0:20:27]: So a couple of ways that we drive business value from that from like a user experience perspective.
Jonathan [0:20:31]: One is, like, you're right.
Jonathan [0:20:32]: There is hotspot hubspot, brand attribution all throughout.
Jonathan [0:20:36]: It's an title sequence, watermark on the channel are and the description, and the end card, etcetera.
Jonathan [0:20:42]: But also, what you're describing is the sort of monetization motion, which is a lead magnet motion just to be kind of like, just productive them about it, but we're creating offers, like oftentimes in collaboration with guests or with creators.
Dave [0:20:56]: So here's what people wanna know with this.
Dave [0:20:58]: They don't care red productive or not.
Dave [0:21:00]: Is it working?
Dave [0:21:00]: Like, are we happy?
Dave [0:21:02]: That's all it matters.
Jonathan [0:21:03]: Yeah Yeah.
Jonathan [0:21:04]: I mean, we wouldn't be doing it if it wasn't working.
Jonathan [0:21:06]: And so it's definitely working.
Dave [0:21:08]: Because I think it's an important.
Dave [0:21:09]: We we love to listen to marketing stuff and we, you know, we judge, like, what's right or wrong.
Dave [0:21:13]: And I...
Dave [0:21:14]: My job is to be like, let's talk to somebody who's doing this and, like, from inside the walls of the company, like, we're doing this...
Dave [0:21:20]: Hey.
Dave [0:21:20]: This is working, and we're doing it and I would assume you can have whatever opinion on about doing offers or up, but if they're working, isn't that the whole game?
Jonathan [0:21:27]: Yeah.
Jonathan [0:21:27]: It's working Asterisk mark.
Jonathan [0:21:29]: Right, Which I think it's, like, it's working, but it's evolved.
Jonathan [0:21:32]: I would say, like, over the last twenty four months, just like people's expectation of value that they're getting from those types of content has dramatically evolved from a place where, you know, when's the last time you download, like, a state of x report.
Jonathan [0:21:44]: Like, no one wants those pdfs anymore.
Jonathan [0:21:47]: They want, like, immediate value.
Jonathan [0:21:49]: And sometimes those work.
Jonathan [0:21:50]: Right?
Jonathan [0:21:51]: I'm not gonna saying you're I to go away by Am saying that, like, the diversity of offer types has, has expanded over time.
Dave [0:21:58]: No.
Dave [0:21:58]: It's good.
Dave [0:21:59]: I I...
Dave [0:21:59]: I'm sure someone listened to the last two minutes.
Dave [0:22:01]: I was like, oh, dave just...
Dave [0:22:02]: Dave's big of a big fan of offers.
Dave [0:22:04]: Like, what what a surprise.
Dave [0:22:05]: But I...
Dave [0:22:06]: But also no note To hear you say, like, yes, they're working, but they need to evolve is is, like, well, yeah.
Jonathan [0:22:13]: Yeah.
Jonathan [0:22:13]: Because I feel like information has just become comm modified and what people really want is immediate results.
Jonathan [0:22:19]: It's like immediate guy.
Dave [0:22:20]: Yeah.
Dave [0:22:20]: I was looking up something there their day from a Hub podcast.
Dave [0:22:23]: And I was like, yeah.
Dave [0:22:25]: I just googled it, and there's, like, some other site that aggregates his stuff and the transcript.
Dave [0:22:28]: Wanted the transcript from, and the transcript was just there.
Dave [0:22:31]: And it's like...
Dave [0:22:32]: But you're gonna gate some, like, you know, wimp little thing just to get an email.
Dave [0:22:36]: It has to be executed in the right way to still work.
Dave [0:22:38]: I feel like.
Jonathan [0:22:40]: Yeah.
Jonathan [0:22:40]: It has to be I executed in a right way to work.
Jonathan [0:22:42]: But also Mean, just think about your own, like, video viewing behavior.
Jonathan [0:22:45]: Like, what's gonna cause you to press pause, click on that link, go to another website and, like, engage with an offer.
Jonathan [0:22:51]: And so what we found is that the things that, like, get you closer to the outcome that you are trying to achieve or accomplish are the things that convert best.
Jonathan [0:23:00]: So oftentimes those are dynamic micro apps or agents or claude skills or, like, even just like basic raw Google sheets.
Jonathan [0:23:09]: Like things that just, like, you can just start to extract as much value as possible out of it without having to, like, read through the Pdf and then, like, interpret it yourself.
Jonathan [0:23:17]: And so that's why, you know I say, like, they work Asterisk mark because they work.
Jonathan [0:23:20]: They just work differently.
Dave [0:23:22]: Yeah.
Dave [0:23:22]: Okay.
Dave [0:23:23]: That that makes sense.
Dave [0:23:25]: And then what do you say to...
Dave [0:23:28]: How do you measure, like, the creator side of, like, the part the...
Dave [0:23:31]: If you work with a creator?
Dave [0:23:32]: Because I wanna think about a, you know, VP marketing who's doing this and they have their own own channels, like, you know, podcast video content, whatever.
Dave [0:23:40]: But they're increasingly being asked to look into influencers and just curious, hundred and fifty of them I'm sure you've learned some lessons we talked a little bit about selecting someone earlier you share a site.
Dave [0:23:52]: But just as far as like, what works with a creator, What what should they share if you're doing a a partnership with someone any best practices you've learned.
Jonathan [0:24:00]: Yeah.
Jonathan [0:24:00]: I mean, I'll start with like the things not to do?
Dave [0:24:03]: That's actually better.
Jonathan [0:24:04]: Yeah.
Jonathan [0:24:04]: I think it's better just because, like, those third rails are important because I think everyone kind of approaches creators the same way and I've, you know, I've kind of found like the things that don't work.
Jonathan [0:24:11]: Like, thinking about it as a transaction.
Jonathan [0:24:14]: Like, I realized that there is money changing hands in log cases.
Jonathan [0:24:17]: But at the same time, we found that collaborating with them, letting them write the script, c creating the offer with them, which is how he monetize creators and doing things that they know are actually gonna work with their audience, oftentimes nine times at its ten.
Jonathan [0:24:32]: Right?
Jonathan [0:24:32]: Converts better, which maybe seems like a nod duh thing to say, but it's just like, like, I can't tell you how many times I've seen executions where it's like, logo slap.
Jonathan [0:24:41]: Here's the script read it live, and you just don't get any value from it.
Dave [0:24:46]: Yeah.
Dave [0:24:46]: Or I get...
Dave [0:24:46]: I get a lot of inbound.
Dave [0:24:47]: I get a lot of, like, messages and it's, like, hey, you know, I'm with x y z company.
Dave [0:24:51]: There's a product launch on, you know, July first.
Dave [0:24:54]: Tell us what your rate is.
Dave [0:24:56]: Tell us how many impressions you're gonna get.
Dave [0:24:57]: Here's what to post and here's when to post it.
Dave [0:25:00]: And I'm, like, That just seems like a waste of money versus the real operative opportune...
Dave [0:25:05]: Maybe that's just like, you know, free reach or something, like, or way you have to pay it.
Dave [0:25:08]: But, like, it's it's just easy.
Dave [0:25:09]: It's just distributing the message.
Dave [0:25:11]: But it seems like there's almost the meta content lesson is here.
Dave [0:25:14]: Like if you really wanted to do something, you almost have to spend more time on it.
Dave [0:25:19]: Work harder on it.
Dave [0:25:20]: Collaborate on it.
Dave [0:25:21]: Like, at a deeper level.
Dave [0:25:22]: Right?
Jonathan [0:25:23]: Yeah.
Jonathan [0:25:23]: Look, I mean, work Harder and also just, like, trust that in a creator knows their audience, better than you do.
Jonathan [0:25:28]: And so I think, like, I mean, that's how we always approach it.
Jonathan [0:25:31]: And what you found is that by approaching it that way, I mean Fade enjoy that partnership better because they're not just having to, like, phone it in whenever they're executing, but also it allows us to do deeper partnerships with them.
Jonathan [0:25:43]: Do bundle with them which oftentimes we can then negotiate discounted rates because we're buying more upfront as a result, and we lock in at a certain Cpm.
Jonathan [0:25:52]: So, like, as the rates increase, ours don't.
Jonathan [0:25:54]: And then we just have, like, better datasets sets that way.
Jonathan [0:25:57]: Like, can we do more than, like, one rep then we see, like, what works what does and if we wanna go deeper with them for a longer period of time.
Jonathan [0:26:03]: And so that's how we've approached it.
Jonathan [0:26:05]: It it is a bit more kind of, like hands on and methodical, but I found that just, like, like the Roi you get from that approach is is much more significant than just the kinda like, transactional, like, here's the check, read this thing for me, approach.
Dave [0:26:19]: Yeah.
Dave [0:26:19]: And have you learned any lessons on the frequency of that?
Dave [0:26:23]: You mentioned bundling bundling obviously, gives you a price advantage, but even just in our, you know, our small little business, we've we've learned that, the longer we can work with someone.
Dave [0:26:33]: So if it's, like, over the course if if it's x number of posts or reach or whatever, you know, over three to six months, it's It's the repetition that delivers the best result for the for the company.
Dave [0:26:45]: It's very especially to your...
Dave [0:26:47]: To our point about, like, B2B.
Dave [0:26:48]: If it's a one off post.
Dave [0:26:49]: I used to do these, like, three or three years ago, and they just didn't make any sense anymore.
Dave [0:26:53]: One off post, with an offer, and then this, you know, they're, like, what the heck This only drove two leads, and I'm like, well, this is b.
Dave [0:27:00]: Let's do a let's do a longer thing together.
Dave [0:27:02]: Three to six months, multiple goes around.
Dave [0:27:04]: Like, there seems to be a frequency lesson.
Jonathan [0:27:07]: Just still knock off of one hit.
Jonathan [0:27:08]: I mean, the first thing it could be a dud, Like, like I find out all the time.
Jonathan [0:27:11]: Like It happens all the time.
Jonathan [0:27:12]: And that's why I love the idea of, like, bundles into your point.
Jonathan [0:27:14]: Like, frequency is really important.
Jonathan [0:27:15]: Like, it's not, like, hey, every single week do this thing because I feel like think you start to get fatigued, but we'd typically staggered out one per month just to kind of, like, get the audience in some breathing room and you know, again, like, make sure that we're hedging against like that first video maybe not necessarily being the video, and we have two more bites at the Apple.
Dave [0:27:33]: How do you give your team creative freedom?
Dave [0:27:35]: Because a lot of what you're gonna...
Dave [0:27:37]: What you're doing now is disrupting the kinda of old way of doing content.
Dave [0:27:40]: You need to...
Dave [0:27:41]: End just social and content in general is a lot about.
Dave [0:27:43]: We gotta do a lot of stuff we're not sure what's gonna land.
Dave [0:27:46]: I'm just curious as to how that plays into your your team and, you know, shipping new work and shipping new ideas.
Jonathan [0:27:52]: I think the term like Fate freedom can't be mistaken for just like, no strategy because what I think about what I think about
Dave [0:28:00]: That's a put that on a bumper sticker for the creative.
Dave [0:28:03]: So where my creative that.
Jonathan [0:28:05]: Well, well, yeah I mean, I gotta get careful sometime, but I say, editorial independence.
Jonathan [0:28:08]: I say creative freedom.
Jonathan [0:28:09]: And what I mean by that is we bring people over to helps hubspot media from awesome publisher rants.
Jonathan [0:28:17]: Like, the onion Ax axiom.
Jonathan [0:28:19]: Bi I, the information, Con Nas.
Jonathan [0:28:22]: Like, they know what they're doing.
Jonathan [0:28:24]: Like, so, for you to come here I me to say this is how you're going to write.
Jonathan [0:28:28]: This is how you're going to produce is how you're going to edit, Why did you hire that person in the first place.
Jonathan [0:28:32]: But giving them kind of like guard rails.
Jonathan [0:28:34]: Like creative guard, I like, hey.
Jonathan [0:28:35]: Look, this is the audience.
Jonathan [0:28:37]: This is what we know about her.
Jonathan [0:28:38]: This is what she likes.
Jonathan [0:28:39]: This is what she doesn't like.
Jonathan [0:28:40]: These are the products that we're selling.
Jonathan [0:28:41]: These are the content verticals we sit within.
Jonathan [0:28:44]: Like, giving them those creative parameters oftentimes they thrive better with that, those, you know, topics like creative constraints, but it's very similar like,
Dave [0:28:53]: who feeds that?
Dave [0:28:53]: Where does that come from, by the way?
Dave [0:28:55]: Does is that fed to you by, like, another team who owns that?
Jonathan [0:28:58]: Yeah.
Jonathan [0:28:58]: We generate that at the marketing level at a business level where we have our persona, we build a taste profile around her, and we understand like, emotional triggers like dislikes, and then we use that to inform, all forms of marketing include our content production.
Dave [0:29:13]: Got it.
Dave [0:29:14]: Okay.
Dave [0:29:14]: Cool.
Dave [0:29:14]: So then the company working off that same sheet of music and then you're the media content team, you're gonna use that to then go, just, you know, those are the guard rails for what you create.
Jonathan [0:29:23]: Yeah.
Jonathan [0:29:23]: I mean it's exactly, yeah.
Jonathan [0:29:24]: I it's exactly it.
Jonathan [0:29:25]: Like, we are taking that.
Jonathan [0:29:26]: We're interpreting it, and we're using our own creative lenses to be able to do that in a way that actually reaches audiences and gets them to getting engaged.
Dave [0:29:35]: How much time is, like, carved out to test new shit.
Dave [0:29:38]: Like, I feel like in this role, you gotta be whether it was, like, you know, five years ago being the, you know, early on making videos on Tiktok?
Dave [0:29:46]: Like, is there some secret team over there that's, like, doing stuff in the basement.
Dave [0:29:49]: Like, how do you do that?
Jonathan [0:29:51]: No.
Jonathan [0:29:51]: I mean, that's the hesitation of every team to be honest with you.
Jonathan [0:29:54]: Like, that's how we operate every team for the most part, now runs in Sprint models where they identify how calm a problem.
Jonathan [0:30:00]: They wanna solve for a big idea.
Jonathan [0:30:02]: They bring again.
Dave [0:30:03]: Like, what?
Dave [0:30:04]: What would...
Dave [0:30:04]: What's an example?
Dave [0:30:05]: So I mean, maybe you've done recently that you could you could say.
Jonathan [0:30:07]: Yeah.
Jonathan [0:30:07]: So good example is clipping.
Jonathan [0:30:09]: Like we're talking about it a little while ago.
Jonathan [0:30:11]: Clipping for us has become a huge top of the funnel unlock.
Jonathan [0:30:15]: Historically, clipping can be kind of a manual process.
Jonathan [0:30:18]: You know, there's a lot of hand.
Jonathan [0:30:20]: It's like, you have to know the full episode, the right time codes, the good hooks, then you have to hand it off to an editor who knows premier and they cut it up and then, you know, hand it off to a channel manager.
Jonathan [0:30:31]: And It's like, a bunch of a bunch of handoff offs.
Jonathan [0:30:33]: But Said okay, like Surely, there's a better way of doing this obviously, clipping is, like, the conversation on x right now.
Jonathan [0:30:39]: So people are figuring it out.
Dave [0:30:41]: Wait.
Dave [0:30:41]: Hold on.
Dave [0:30:41]: This you'll appreciate it this This is funny.
Dave [0:30:42]: Like, so the reason for forever.
Dave [0:30:43]: So I always take notes during this podcast.
Jonathan [0:30:46]: Yeah.
Dave [0:30:47]: And the main reason why is because, like, I mark time stamps down or things that happen to inform and it's like, I'm in the stone ages over here.
Jonathan [0:30:55]: I thought Well, hey, We got a solution.
Jonathan [0:30:56]: I know.
Jonathan [0:30:57]: Yeah.
Jonathan [0:30:58]: Right.
Jonathan [0:30:58]: Yeah.
Jonathan [0:31:00]: So it was a problem.
Jonathan [0:31:00]: You know, like, while inefficiencies, we know there's Ai leverage that's being left on the table within the middle part of that production motion.
Jonathan [0:31:08]: So how can we crack?
Jonathan [0:31:09]: So they put together a swat team of patent Sam for starter story who are recent acquisition of ours in a built out, a similar system folks from different parts of our video arm and a couple of folks from my audience development team.
Jonathan [0:31:21]: And, within six weeks built out a full stack.
Jonathan [0:31:25]: Ai automated a clipping engine that takes along from piece of content, has been trained up on, like, what great looks like from a clipping perspective, plugs out those time codes using Claude, hands it off through the des script Api a des script, which is a natural language editor.
Jonathan [0:31:41]: The channel manager has been trained up on that.
Jonathan [0:31:43]: They go in there they're like, this one's good.
Jonathan [0:31:45]: This one's bad.
Jonathan [0:31:46]: This one's good.
Jonathan [0:31:47]: And then using human judgment and taste.
Jonathan [0:31:49]: They like, you know, what, like, maybe the hook is better here.
Jonathan [0:31:51]: And maybe like, this word doesn't work or it should start here, and they you just press publish.
Jonathan [0:31:55]: And the engine is creating the subs it's creating the captions for you.
Jonathan [0:32:00]: It's pulling out the clips and something that would have taken day, a couple days whatever, now takes minutes for that person, and has allowed us to unlock a tremendous amount of clipping output that.
Jonathan [0:32:10]: Was just, like, frank down haven't reach before.
Jonathan [0:32:12]: And now it's fun...
Jonathan [0:32:13]: Like Sprint model.
Jonathan [0:32:13]: So, like this is the kind, like, approach that we encourage our team to operate with.
Jonathan [0:32:18]: And
Dave [0:32:19]: well, like, it's a good...
Dave [0:32:20]: First of all, it's a great tactical example for for our little newsletter.
Dave [0:32:24]: We'll or we'll clip that speaking of clips.
Dave [0:32:26]: So that...
Dave [0:32:26]: That's a great specific example because I can see in my head as you're talking about that, the role of the human and the role of the Ai, and I see that in a positive light.
Dave [0:32:34]: I'm like, no, Actually, the human I'd rather be the human being, like, bring me...
Dave [0:32:38]: Come here you little minions.
Dave [0:32:39]: Bring me show me the clips show me the clips.
Dave [0:32:41]: I'll decide, you know, commit robot
Jonathan [0:32:44]: right enough.
Dave [0:32:46]: I'm, like, you show me the clips.
Dave [0:32:47]: I'm gonna decide.
Dave [0:32:48]: And then who owns building that is, like, how do you make the infrastructure of that?
Jonathan [0:32:52]: Yeah.
Jonathan [0:32:52]: So we have an Ai engineer on our team who is working with a lot of just
Dave [0:32:57]: on the whole team, like, one Ai engineer on the, like, media team.
Jonathan [0:33:00]: One Ai engineer on a team, but here's the thing is that, like, odd these folks already Ai native.
Jonathan [0:33:04]: I mean, like, if you talk to pat, it's like, he's already club code.
Jonathan [0:33:08]: Use the one that's, like, building it, staging it, vibe coding, and a lot of folks already just do this instinctively.
Jonathan [0:33:14]: And the ai engineers there for, like just things that truly are beyond people's technical to pay grades.
Dave [0:33:20]: Well, Pat, I mean, are you so you're just saying, like, oh, that's just payroll Pat's like built a, you know, almost a million subscriber Youtube channel on his own, and this guy loves his crap and sweats it.
Dave [0:33:30]: So I don't wanna, like, well, pack it Was like, that's But that's a...
Dave [0:33:33]: True.
Dave [0:33:34]: You find someone who's created this system and then see how we can replicate that for your whole team.
Dave [0:33:38]: That's a cool example of Ai enable.
Dave [0:33:40]: That's not just like, you know, mass producing blog post law.
Dave [0:33:44]: Nice.
Dave [0:33:45]: Two points for you.
Jonathan [0:33:48]: Yeah.
Jonathan [0:33:48]: Which is not the strategy anybody should be fine.
Dave [0:33:50]: Okay.
Dave [0:33:50]: So that cool.
Dave [0:33:51]: That's a good example.
Dave [0:33:51]: So basically, you have...
Dave [0:33:53]: And you mentioned you run...
Dave [0:33:54]: You run Sprints, like, I'm just curious to how how do you operate monthly, quarterly, how does the team figure out what to go work on?
Jonathan [0:34:03]: Yeah.
Jonathan [0:34:03]: So all of our different team managers are responsible for planning and managing their not the Sprint road map.
Jonathan [0:34:09]: And we coordinate that about media, wide level, but really the empowerment comes at the manager level, and they're working with their Is ics is to to define, like, what are, like, the things are tripping us up, what are the big outcomes, the big bets we wanna take and then let's assemble a swat team of, like, really smart people, cross functional people to be able to solve that in a six week sprint.
Jonathan [0:34:30]: And so it is a little bit asynchronous in that, like, it's not happening on, like, a monthly basis, quarterly basis, Like, we're kind of signing this on a weekly basis at this point.
Jonathan [0:34:39]: But for the most part, it allowed us to just move a lot faster and just minimize y'all.
Dave [0:34:45]: This a new thing, A newer newer implemented lament thing, whatever I'm trying to say.
Jonathan [0:34:50]: Yeah.
Jonathan [0:34:50]: I yeah.
Jonathan [0:34:51]: So all lot of our teams have been operating in a similar thing We just haven't been calling you.
Jonathan [0:34:55]: You know, as Sprint and sell now, but it's a new operating system that, you know, we've been rolling out across marketing that's really inspired by, you know, a new playbook that we built called loop marketing here at Hubspot, which is just, you know, how to be able to effectively do and build marketing teams in the Ai era when The top of the funnel is, you know, expanded and fragmented.
Jonathan [0:35:15]: The middle funnel has contracted and Carrie Still running the old playbook.
Jonathan [0:35:19]: It's no longer working.
Dave [0:35:21]: So I I like this idea of just doing a Sprint a six weeks sprint.
Dave [0:35:25]: How do you decide what's Sprint worthy?
Dave [0:35:28]: Like, obviously, you gotta, you know, you gotta brush your teeth.
Dave [0:35:31]: You gotta a floss.
Dave [0:35:32]: So you gotta do all the day to day stuff, but is this Sprint, like, a bigger project, like, that you said is a big goal to go work after?
Jonathan [0:35:39]: Yeah.
Jonathan [0:35:39]: There's the hygiene stuff You're right.
Jonathan [0:35:40]: There's kind of like the, like, a always on thing.
Jonathan [0:35:42]: You know, like, we're publishing a hustle newsletter every single day.
Jonathan [0:35:45]: We're publishing on online newsletter every single day.
Jonathan [0:35:47]: But there are things that oftentimes whenever you get in this sort of motion of, like, doing a thing every single day.
Jonathan [0:35:52]: Where you don't really feel like you you can come up for error air and focus on the next step function of growth or change for the thing that you're working on.
Jonathan [0:36:01]: And so this I kinda see it as, like, the catalyst for us.
Jonathan [0:36:05]: To sort, like, take a step back and say, okay, well actually, you know what?
Jonathan [0:36:08]: Like, two hundred fifty thousand subs on my, not enough.
Jonathan [0:36:11]: We wanted to get the five hundred thousand.
Jonathan [0:36:13]: What's the strategy for just, like, taking that next step function change.
Jonathan [0:36:16]: And while we're not gonna get the five hundred thousand six weeks, we're gonna have a strategy for that next evolutionary phase that newsletter product.
Jonathan [0:36:23]: And so it really is, like, the bigger bets, the bigger outcomes that just like, are maybe currently not a priority or just big problems that need to be solved.
Dave [0:36:33]: I like that because I feel like, I mean, I do this with our list.
Dave [0:36:35]: With Dan and I are always like, setting goals around it, and it's like, okay, this year, we wanna grow from x to y.
Dave [0:36:40]: And then it's kinda, like, throughout the course of the year, you're supposed to make these improvements, but the real big swings, if you really wanna get to a big goal, you almost...
Dave [0:36:48]: You have to take bigger swings.
Dave [0:36:49]: And so if you're forced, hey.
Dave [0:36:50]: We wanna go from two fifty of five hundred in six weeks.
Dave [0:36:53]: What would that look like?
Dave [0:36:54]: What do we need to do?
Dave [0:36:55]: It just forces a different thinking exercise?
Jonathan [0:36:58]: A hundred.
Jonathan [0:36:58]: It's a forcing function.
Jonathan [0:36:59]: Also, you know, it also forces you to say, like, Alright.
Jonathan [0:37:03]: You know, what are the o emissions that I'm going to make to be able to, like, actually, like, lock in and do this thing that I know.
Jonathan [0:37:09]: It might be, like, little hard and painful in the beginning, but it's going to get me to where I need to go to continue to grow my product.
Jonathan [0:37:14]: And so we roll it out across the entire marketing team and, you know, I started to see some really cool results of the...
Dave [0:37:21]: How does your team talk to you about results?
Jonathan [0:37:24]: Yeah.
Jonathan [0:37:24]: You know, it's oftentimes through the lens of those three different buckets we talked about before, historically it's been very demand and focus.
Jonathan [0:37:30]: So all our channels, all of our media products have demand goals that roll up into a larger marketing demand number that then obviously back into overall customer and revenue growth the organization.
Jonathan [0:37:43]: And so we all have numbers that we need to hit.
Jonathan [0:37:45]: But it's also evolved.
Jonathan [0:37:47]: I think whenever I came in, it was maybe very, kinda, like, top of the funnel impressions based.
Jonathan [0:37:52]: I like, whoa.
Jonathan [0:37:53]: Come on.
Jonathan [0:37:53]: Like, we really gotta, like, prove our worth and actually, like, get into, like, how is it's actually driving business for the business.
Jonathan [0:37:58]: And so We kind of, like, over index for demand and?
Jonathan [0:38:01]: I think now we're kinda like swinging back to the middle where demand gen super important.
Jonathan [0:38:05]: Everyone still has those goals and we'll have those goals going forward.
Jonathan [0:38:08]: But how do we value and optimize against the things that are maybe harder back into the revenue number, but you know are important from a brand awareness of consideration perspective.
Dave [0:38:19]: What are you hiring for right now?
Dave [0:38:20]: So somebody that wants to work in content, media, creative.
Dave [0:38:24]: If they're listening to this podcast and they're one of those people and thinking about their career, if they wanna, you know, grow up to be like you and and run a media, run a media company inside of a software company or a media company on their own?
Dave [0:38:37]: What type of person is that right now?
Dave [0:38:39]: Where do they...
Dave [0:38:39]: What are you looking for?
Jonathan [0:38:41]: Yeah.
Jonathan [0:38:41]: Well, I think just from, like, a cultural and skills perspective, it's just people that move fast, our Ai native and are open to, like, experimentation and taking big risks from a skill set perspective, like, very much is becoming more great producer editors on the video front, like people that know how to outline script, pitch, produce, host, edit, like, full stack end to end without having to really rely on all lot the handoff offs.
Jonathan [0:39:08]: And, you know, that's, like, what the video profile has become, I would say in the last, like ten years.
Dave [0:39:14]: How do you test for that?
Dave [0:39:15]: Any lessons learned.
Dave [0:39:16]: You can attract the Hyundai nas?
Dave [0:39:18]: Yeah.
Dave [0:39:18]: Folks, but someone who's maybe at a smaller company, that's listening to this.
Dave [0:39:22]: That's like, yeah I wanna a type of person about that, but how do how do you find them?
Jonathan [0:39:25]: Yeah.
Jonathan [0:39:25]: I mean, all of that comes out in the interview process, but then also in in a kind of like, skills test process, like, hey, like, do a thing for me.
Jonathan [0:39:34]: Or hey, Show me some examples of what you've done and, like, how you thought about where the idea came from, how you scripted it for the best hooks and the best structure and then how you approach the production of it, and then the editing of it?
Jonathan [0:39:47]: To understand like do they actually know what they're talking about.
Jonathan [0:39:50]: But we found, like, a lot of folks that work at mostly kind of, like, niche modern media companies fit that profile.
Jonathan [0:39:57]: And audience development, Like, I think Audience development is just one of those kind of, like, It's more I find, like, like, a B2B media term, but I've tried to c it for B2B media, which it's like...
Dave [0:40:10]: Audience development.
Dave [0:40:10]: What is that, like, a fancy word for demand gen?
Jonathan [0:40:14]: More like a fancy word for marketing, but that's kinda how like a media folks think about it.
Dave [0:40:17]: That's...
Dave [0:40:17]: Do you gotta take that bring that to the CFO.
Dave [0:40:19]: Like, we're doing some audience development right now.
Jonathan [0:40:22]: We're doing some audience development.
Jonathan [0:40:23]: Yeah.
Jonathan [0:40:23]: Let me tell you about it.
Jonathan [0:40:24]: We're already doing marketing here here's audience development as well.
Jonathan [0:40:27]: Audience development as an name implies it's like, helping us generate more subscribers and more distribution for our content and our media brands, both organically and from a paid perspective.
Jonathan [0:40:40]: And, you know, I think what I really appreciate from my time spent at traditional B2c, like, modern Beauty companies is that, like, you don't have any software budgets.
Jonathan [0:40:50]: It's kinda like, hey, here's, like, hundred bucks and like, I can't coke, like, figure it out.
Jonathan [0:40:55]: And you just gotta, like, growth hacked your way into it and, like,
Dave [0:40:59]: There we have some founder.
Dave [0:41:00]: We some, like, Facebook meta credits from the founder.
Jonathan [0:41:03]: Yeah.
Jonathan [0:41:03]: No.
Jonathan [0:41:04]: This is definitely it.
Jonathan [0:41:04]: It's like, hey.
Jonathan [0:41:05]: This person knows this person over you youtube to, like, when don't you talk to them.
Jonathan [0:41:08]: And so it's super scrappy, but it's...
Jonathan [0:41:11]: Always do it a lens so, like, how do I just do it organically without having Tour rely unpaid media, and so I'm trying to bring more of that into how we think about audience development through organic s dedication, partnership swaps, c creation with other creators of similar scale, things like that, it don't always really require paid media budgets, though the paid obviously allows you to become a lot more laser target on who you want to attract and know convert the trackers.
Dave [0:41:35]: Let's see.
Dave [0:41:35]: We're gonna wrap in a minute, but what what should I have asked you?
Dave [0:41:38]: You know our audience?
Dave [0:41:38]: What's something about your job and what you're doing that I probably should have asked.
Jonathan [0:41:43]: Yeah.
Jonathan [0:41:43]: That's a really good question.
Jonathan [0:41:44]: I mean, I think just kind like, digging you more into how how content teams you should be thinking about Ai.
Jonathan [0:41:50]: You know, I think there's kind of like, the completion of Ai with it being the thing that is, like, putting people out have jobs or should be, like, the replacement for your content strategy.
Jonathan [0:42:00]: I mean, we don't see it that way.
Jonathan [0:42:03]: Like, you always see it as human from the idea and human from the, you know, from the idea and, human done implementation and publish.
Jonathan [0:42:09]: But, like, being able to use Ai to solve for a lot of that messy middle of the production process, Like I'll give you good example, like, for video, for example, for the longest time, things like localization, like, taking video that was made in English speaking markets and making that relevant for international non English speaking markets.
Jonathan [0:42:28]: Required us to take the script, the outline, ship it to someone, then you had to do video in different market.
Jonathan [0:42:34]: Re record it And by the then, it's, like, two weeks later.
Dave [0:42:37]: We had this guy, like, on the creative team at Ui uipath, and they they...
Dave [0:42:40]: He was on one of our webinars.
Dave [0:42:42]: Basically talking about how they they did exactly this.
Dave [0:42:44]: They made all these localized video with, like, eleven labs and button.
Dave [0:42:48]: And he's like, this is an example of Normally me as a creative person, you'd be saying, like, this screw this thing That's gonna take our job What he's, like, I wouldn't have been able to do this before, and this is a cool cool way to do that.
Jonathan [0:42:57]: No.
Jonathan [0:42:57]: Yeah.
Jonathan [0:42:57]: I mean it's that yeah.
Jonathan [0:42:58]: Like, Occasion has been...
Jonathan [0:42:59]: I like, amazing unlock for us.
Jonathan [0:43:01]: And has allowed us to really, like, jump our Youtube strategy and markets like Lat, and Doc in France, but I would say, like, the fidelity is getting really good.
Jonathan [0:43:12]: Like, especially for Spanish, like Less for French and German, where they're still kind of, like, kinda coats which is a bit between like Quebec club and like European French and like, in Germany.
Jonathan [0:43:22]: It's, like Austria and German and German, German.
Dave [0:43:25]: Are these, like, hey, Jen Avatar videos.
Jonathan [0:43:28]: Yeah.
Jonathan [0:43:28]: Well, I mean the same people that it had produced and hosted the original English speaking video.
Jonathan [0:43:32]: Have given their consent to be trained up on and, and then they're having their likeness recreated in a different language.
Dave [0:43:39]: Okay.
Dave [0:43:39]: So that that use case feels good to me.
Dave [0:43:41]: Like, they're...
Dave [0:43:42]: I could never get on with the, like, it's a full Ai avatar doing our product marketing, but if it was based on a human.
Dave [0:43:50]: If it was based on Dave, we're gonna make this available in French, I can all support that Dal donate.
Jonathan [0:43:56]: I mean, Audience been done in the movie industry for forever.
Jonathan [0:43:59]: Right?
Jonathan [0:43:59]: Like, the dub approach, it's just, like we're using a different technology to do it.
Jonathan [0:44:03]: So that's how we I think about it.
Jonathan [0:44:04]: But I think that's just one of good example.
Jonathan [0:44:06]: Of like, anybody today.
Jonathan [0:44:07]: If you have, like, any customers that are not English speaking markets.
Jonathan [0:44:10]: You just use a a use a low tier of, and then How, W content and to different languages and you'll be good?
Dave [0:44:18]: I I have changed my opinion on this this week.
Dave [0:44:20]: My Ai opinion is changing daily.
Dave [0:44:22]: Based on who I talk to.
Jonathan [0:44:24]: What is it today?
Dave [0:44:25]: I forget where I heard this, but someone was, like, the cat...
Dave [0:44:28]: Like, the cat is out the bag.
Dave [0:44:30]: Like, there's no coming back now.
Dave [0:44:31]: There were...
Dave [0:44:31]: These tools were never gonna be, like, unwind what we have now.
Dave [0:44:34]: And so to not use them, you could make a fundamental stance, and I don't care what you do.
Dave [0:44:40]: It's free country do what you want.
Dave [0:44:41]: I I mean, for me, like, writing our newsletter with Claude.
Dave [0:44:44]: Here's a perfect example of you of this.
Dave [0:44:46]: Right?
Dave [0:44:46]: I love my little humor and wit and trying to sprinkle in personality in it.
Dave [0:44:52]: But what Claude is great that I'm not is I can give it this transcript and I can say, find me that I want the three...
Dave [0:44:58]: I want, like, three bullets, like, the top three takeaways from my conversation with Jonathan.
Dave [0:45:02]: Give me those just all facts, no narrative, no opinion just...
Dave [0:45:06]: I just want it.
Dave [0:45:07]: And then now I have, like, the right ingredients and then I can go and write the newsletter.
Dave [0:45:10]: Like That's an incredible way for me to write that I I didn't have before.
Jonathan [0:45:14]: Yeah.
Jonathan [0:45:14]: And to arbitrarily kind of revert back to prehistoric times when you didn't have access to that.
Jonathan [0:45:19]: Right.
Jonathan [0:45:19]: Like in insane.
Dave [0:45:21]: I'm choosing to use quilt, sir.
Jonathan [0:45:24]: I'm will okay.
Jonathan [0:45:25]: Here's the door.
Jonathan [0:45:26]: It's really interesting.
Jonathan [0:45:27]: I mean, we do have a pretty good code ethics for, like, how we think about use Ai across all different media products which we publish publicly and, you know, really train up all of our content creators on.
Jonathan [0:45:38]: I'm just sort show, like, where are those sort of, like, red lines of, like, how we're not going to use it and how he will use it and how you disclose it.
Dave [0:45:45]: That's interesting.
Dave [0:45:45]: I hear that as a podcast host and a business owner and I won't like, oh, interesting.
Dave [0:45:49]: You have to you have to have a policy and and share with your audience that...
Dave [0:45:53]: With how you're gonna use these things.
Dave [0:45:55]: That's interesting.
Jonathan [0:45:56]: Yeah.
Jonathan [0:45:56]: Yeah.
Jonathan [0:45:56]: Yeah.
Jonathan [0:45:56]: Because, like audience trust is the only thing you really have at the end of the day and you don't wanna compromise that.
Jonathan [0:46:01]: But I'm optimistic about Ai I know that there's, like, a larger kind of, like, bit of a backlash.
Jonathan [0:46:06]: I I still think, like, use for good and using the right ways can create.
Jonathan [0:46:11]: Really great results and I think like some the things we're I'm talking about today.
Jonathan [0:46:13]: I'm gonna example of that
Dave [0:46:15]: Where did that?
Dave [0:46:15]: Was that a company wide, like, champion doc because I just, I I feel like that's a good be a good guard for people listening this that are using, you know, creating content and, you know, using tools like that.
Dave [0:46:24]: I wonder how did you start that effort.
Jonathan [0:46:26]: Yeah.
Jonathan [0:46:26]: I mean, this some conversations are content teams, You know?
Jonathan [0:46:29]: Because early on, like, with most companies that it wasn't necessarily a whole lot of whole on guard rails for, like, how to use Ai server everyone's was kind of experimenting with it, trying things, failing with it, succeeding with it.
Jonathan [0:46:41]: And, you know, there was frankly, some stuff.
Jonathan [0:46:44]: That just, like, sounded bad, look bad, red bad.
Jonathan [0:46:47]: And I think we just said like, like we do need set of expectations for our entire media team to how it's to approach.
Jonathan [0:46:53]: The use of Ai and when not to and how we think about the relationship between humans and Ai.
Jonathan [0:46:58]: And then as a signal of trust to our audiences and our customers publish that publicly just so anytime Ai is being used for, like, research or for editing that, like, they know that there was some Ai being leveraged for the production at decent of content.
Dave [0:47:15]: Just says oh just as always.
Jonathan [0:47:17]: Yeah.
Jonathan [0:47:17]: That's kidding.
Jonathan [0:47:17]: Yeah.
Jonathan [0:47:19]: This just
Dave [0:47:19]: a one page.
Dave [0:47:20]: Every time.
Dave [0:47:20]: Every word.
Dave [0:47:21]: The worst thing to happen to me.
Dave [0:47:25]: Honestly, I'm a terrible writer.
Dave [0:47:26]: I write, like I talk, but it works, and I...
Dave [0:47:28]: Like, M dashes have always been my crotch and then, like, a year or two ago.
Dave [0:47:33]: Everyone's like, you...
Dave [0:47:33]: You're writing.
Dave [0:47:34]: I'm like, no.
Dave [0:47:35]: This is right Right
Jonathan [0:47:37]: as a creative ready major.
Jonathan [0:47:38]: I was like, I fucking love the in dash.
Jonathan [0:47:39]: And now I just like, I can't use it I can't use it.
Jonathan [0:47:42]: I can't use it.
Jonathan [0:47:42]: It's so annoying.
Jonathan [0:47:43]: I'm, like, the semi calling.
Jonathan [0:47:44]: It's just doesn't feel right?
Jonathan [0:47:45]: None of real feels.
Jonathan [0:47:46]: Right?
Dave [0:47:47]: That it doesn't feel right?
Dave [0:47:48]: Yeah.
Dave [0:47:48]: Alright, Jonathan Hunt, I gotta wrap.
Dave [0:47:50]: You gotta wrap yeah.
Dave [0:47:51]: Find Jonathan on on Linkedin, Jonathan Hunt, VP media and content.
Dave [0:47:54]: At Hubspot.
Dave [0:47:55]: Thanks for listening to this episode Been having a lot of fun lately doing the pod.
Dave [0:47:58]: It's summer here in Vermont.
Dave [0:48:00]: Thanks for all the messages and comments and we'll see you
Jonathan [0:48:03]: on the next episode.
Jonathan [0:48:04]: Alright.
Dave [0:48:09]: Hey.
Dave [0:48:09]: Thanks for listening to this podcast.
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