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Even the most prominent voices in Sales were crap at Sales once.
Join bestselling Author, Founder and Sales Coach Mark Ackers as he speaks with successful Sales professionals about their early Sales struggles, and how they overcame these challenges to become the people they are today.
Mark Ackers: Phil Putnam, a
dynamic leader who helps
organizations unlock top
performance. Did you used to be
practice house?
Phil Putnam: Oh, yes. The way
that I look at it is that in
some ways I still am. There is
no done. There's no finished.
Growing, especially when it
comes to sales. I'm the first
person to put out a book that
really looks at leadership in
this specific way. Very typical
situation for a first time
leader, I was brought into a
global role with a very large
mandate and a very short period
of time to deliver results and
very limited resources. I'm
going to have to get my team
members to give me what I want,
which is quality work on time,
on a very regular basis, in
order for me to deliver my
team's number to my larger
business, the majority of senior
leadership, the ones who really
dictate are from the Baby Boomer
and older level of Gen X. The
majority of the workforce is
millennials and Gen Zers. So
there's a big difference there.
And I run into a lot of senior
leaders that basically say,
yeah, I get it, but I don't want
to you literally cannot succeed
without human employees. This is
not a problem that AI has
solved. There's no such thing as
a global enterprise, entirely
automated, machine driven
business. It's one of the most
important phrases. Any leader
who's not in those two
generations can hear millennials
and Gen Z ers value their time
more than they fear change. So
the attitude that a lot of
senior leaders have right now
towards job candidates and
hiring is that, well, I can
afford to lose people because
there's so many people looking
for work, and people are so
scared of not having a job right
now that they'll stick it out,
even when I'm not giving them
what they truly need. That is
not an accurate statement for
millennials and Gen Z years. How
should
Mark Ackers: a leader that might
have millennials and Gen Z
change their approach to
motivation? That's
Phil Putnam: where the
conversation really gets
interesting. I arrive at a point
where I ask the audience two
questions. I ask them, raise
your hand, if and only if you
truly love your employer more
than you love yourself. And I
ask them, raise your hand if and
only if you truly care more
about your company meeting its
goals than you do about yourself
and your loved ones getting the
life that you want. Now, I have
asked this question now to well
over 3000 people. How many
people do you think have raised
their hands yes to either of
those questions? Go on. Tell us
you mark,
Mark Ackers: hello and welcome
to another episode of The I used
to be crap at sales podcast. I'm
your host, Mark Akers, and today
I'm thrilled to be joined by
Phil Putnam, a dynamic leader
who helps organizations unlock
top performance and align their
teams with the ultimate goals.
Phil is a speaker, a workshop
leader, a coach and now an
author of desired based
leadership. Phil has a rich
career history ranging from a VP
to sales name and to coaching
executives. Phil is based in New
York City, which you will
probably hear elements of that
in the podcast, because I'm
already hearing taxis go past.
Phil's got really innovative
approaches and re methods to
reshape how leaders should think
about motivation and the results
that it can bring. Phil, welcome
to the I used to be crap at
sales podcast. How are you and
how is New York City this
morning? Well, thank
Phil Putnam: you for having me.
I'm wonderful. I'm super happy
to be here. New York is cold
this morning and windy, but
there is that kind of Bleak
beauty to it. I'm lucky enough
to have a beautiful view of one
of the rivers in Manhattan
outside of my window, so I get
to kind of see that beautiful
Mark Ackers: stuff. Well, Phil,
we called the podcast I used to
be crap at sales, because all of
our guests say the same thing,
and it's true for me as well.
But my opening question to you
is, Phil, did you used to be
crap at sales,
Phil Putnam: oh yes. And the way
that I look at it is that in
some ways, I still am, because
there is no done like there's no
finished growing, especially
when it comes to sales. So I sit
here today still crap at sales,
at some things, and I delight in
that. I've never been the person
that needed to deny the reality
of learning and of growth. I
mean, that's part of why I've
made a big chunk of my career
sales and learning, when focus
and enablement. So I sort of
delight in being in process
until the day we die. And that's
Mark Ackers: a great answer,
right? Like that growth mindset,
I suppose when people answer the
question of, yes, I used to be
crap at sales, there's normally
a moment that comes flooding
back, that moment of
realization, what was that for
you? What was the moment when
perhaps you were in sales and
you realized you were crap? What
happened? It's actually
Phil Putnam: my very first well,
my second sales job, my first
sales job, I worked at a fast
food restaurant, like a
hamburger restaurant, like
another version of McDonald's in
the US, and that was in
California where I grew up. I
grew up in Sacramento,
California. Then I graduated to
retail clothing sales when I was
in my last year of high school,
and it was an Old Navy just
think of like the H M of the
90s, but far less stylish. And
so I was interviewing for this
job just to be a regular sales
associate. And so one of. Parts
of the interview, the manager
said, go around, pick out an
item of clothing that you think
I might be interested in, and
then sell it to me. So the first
thing I remember is that this
was a female manager who was
interviewing me, and I go, and I
picked a men's shirt that was
not the right size for her. So
right off the bat, no knowledge
of the client's needs, no sense
of, you know, fit, customer and
product fit. And then I remember
that I just basically described
to her, like the color. And I'm
like, I've tried to sell to her
based upon the product itself. I
didn't ask her anything about
what she was looking for, what
she needed, what she was trying
to accomplish. I'll never forget
it takes about 30 seconds for me
to just like, flame out hard,
just crash and burn so hard in
this interview. And she after
I'm done, she just chuckles, and
she's like, wow, that was really
awful. Was like, Oh crap,
because I was 17, I wanted this
job. And she's like, look like
the best thing you can do before
you decide what to try to sell,
somebody is ask them, Is there
anything specific that you're
looking for that one moment of
sales education was probably the
most profound early piece of
sales education I ever received
is when she said, just start by
asking me if there's anything
I'm looking for. Feels
Mark Ackers: like that was very
much the Sell me this pen
version in a clothing store.
Phil Putnam: One thing that's
great about Old Navy, they're
part of gap Incorporated. So
they own gap. Old Navy and
Banana Republic, their sales
acronym for their floor
associates at the time was
basic, A, S, I, C, S, I also
like that the word itself made
me like go back to basics. You
know, begin with a greeting, ask
what they're looking for,
suggest a product, inform them
about the product, continue to
sell by adding on. I'm 45 years
old. Now, I worked there when I
was 17, and still, that's the
power of a acronym. Yeah, that
was their basic. Was their
acronym.
Mark Ackers: Let's talk about
just if we scanned your career
from then up until we sit down.
Now, everyone's got a howler, a
big mistake that they've made,
that's that's cost them a deal,
something that the audience
listening to are going to laugh
about, they're going to resonate
with. What would you say is,
like, one of your big mistakes
that you look back on in your
sales career?
Phil Putnam: Okay, so this is a
mistake I made earlier in my
career, and then just two days
ago, I didn't make this mistake.
This is a success story. Several
years ago, I was in a sales
conversation. We had achieved
product market fit. We'd
achieved, you know, business
value fit. And so the obvious
question, the buyer has of great
and how has this helped other
customers? Before? Can you
provide me with some data
points? I just said no, because,
to my knowledge, at the time,
this product was new to the
market, and I, as far as I knew,
my company didn't have any data
they could pull from. So I just
said, No, we can't provide you
with any data of how this has
helped other customers. And of
course, you know, I lost the
deal. The follow up is that just
two days ago, exact same thing,
and this is now I'm running my
own business, I'm selling my own
products, and I'm with this
decision maker and an in person
meeting, and she says, and can
you provide us some data on how
this has helped other customers.
In my head, I said, No, what
came out of my mouth was, let me
put something together for you.
Because what I realized in that
moment is the real thing that I
needed was time. Like that's the
first problem that I had to
solve was get more time to find
a way to give this customer what
they're asking for. Because
maybe there is data. Maybe I
don't know yet, but I probably
can solve this problem if I just
create time for me to do it. And
so then I was able to go home
and figure out, how am I going
to solve this problem?
Mark Ackers: Like you say, I
think it's that ability to you
hear a question, and it's not
that knee jerk reaction assuming
you've got the answer. It's, let
me get some time. Did you do any
clarity around what it is they
were looking for? Like when
someone says to me, if you've
got any data, that can mean lots
of things? Yeah, so
Phil Putnam: we'd already done
that earlier in the
conversation. This product that
I was selling them is relatively
new to the market, so I have a
limited number of customers that
are currently using it, and the
first one started using it only
four months ago. I knew the data
was going to be limited, but
also I know the problems that
this product solves. I'd already
made sure that this prospect I
was talking to needed those
problems to be solved in their
business. So I we'd already
zeroed in on a specific KPI that
they were looking for, which was
basically time and stage. They
didn't specify the stage they
wanted, but they just said,
we're really looking to address
our deal velocity challenges,
specifically through time and
stage. So that's
Mark Ackers: why that stat, then
was really helpful to you,
because I think that was the bit
that was just slightly missing,
is that the data they were
looking for. So Phil, how we got
to know each other is Sarah
brazier. Introduced us. She
said, you'd be a great guest,
and we started speaking. You
shared, initially, a couple of
chapters of your book. I've then
since had the full copy, which
I'm really appreciative of, I've
done some reading. The book is
called desire based leadership,
and it come out, it was October.
Wasn't it that you launched it?
Let's talk about that book.
First of all, who is this book
for and how would. You describe
it first and
Phil Putnam: foremost, it's for
leaders of people, so managers,
and this could be a manager of
any level, it's especially
poignant for middle managers,
like frontline managers and
second line team managers,
because they often get squeezed
the most on the expectations
from above, the needs from
below, and limited resources to
accommodate either set. So
that's really who it's for, but
it's really for leaders of any
stage, and then the larger
audience is an employee in any
role in any industry, because
it's really about your
relationship with employment,
and the fact that the motivation
that leads to top employee
performance at any level is a
result of somebody's belief that
they can get the life they
desire from the job they have.
That's about your relationship
with employment. Also, one of
the main things that helps
leaders do is stop trying to
solve behavioral problems with
operational solutions. And so
that's a little bit of a teaser
about what's in the book, and we
can really, you know, dig in
together from there well and
Mark Ackers: well, let's do
that. I mean the book really, as
you say, it focuses on aligning
leadership with what people
truly want. What inspired that
idea? Well,
Phil Putnam: very typical
situation for a first time
leader, I was brought into a
global role with a very large
mandate and a very short period
of time to deliver results and
very limited resources. And I
had inherited one team member
who was there before I joined
the company. I was given, you
know, head count to hire two
more, and I knew with the
expectations that were in front
of me, I had to generate some
big results in a very short
period of time, I'm going to
have to get my team members to
give me what I want, which is
quality work on time, on a very
regular basis, in order for me
to deliver my team's number to
my larger business, which is my
responsibility. It's how I keep
my job, it's how I get my
promotion. So I just sat down
and did something I very
normally do, I just applied some
common sense, and I thought,
well, what's the best way to get
somebody to give me what I want
from them, to give them what
they want? And so I just asked
myself, what do people want from
a job? Why do people work? And
the answer was so obvious and so
quick and clear, people work to
get the life they desire in
exchange, that is everyone's
number one career goal, because
nobody truly loves their
employer more than they love
themself. And so I thought,
well, if I'm going to use
somebody's ability to get the
life they desire from the job
they have as a basis of
motivation and also a basis of
decisioning about who am I going
to hire? I need to figure out. I
need to discover the details of
what that life is for each
person. So as I was interviewing
candidates or getting to know
the person I'd inherited and
learning how to mentor and
develop her, I just would say,
Hey, if you're comfortable,
because this is totally
voluntary, let's set aside the
job for a second and just, I'd
love to learn about the life
you're trying to get in exchange
for the work that you do. And
then I'll tell you honestly, if
you can get it here, because I
genuinely believe that if you
can get the life you desire from
the job you have, that's party
time, like you're going to be
fundamentally motivated to bring
me your best performance every
single day with a minimal amount
of friction. I'm going to get
what I need from you. My
business is going to get what it
needs from our team, and we're
all going to be happy. But the
reverse is also true. If you
can't get the life you desire,
or you believe you can't get the
life you desire from the job you
have, you're going to disengage.
Your performance quality is
going to dip. And if I can't fix
it in time, you're going to
leave, and my company is going
to have to pay the cost of
replacing you, and the cost of
replacement it is crippling to
every company's profitability,
and it's a major thing that's
being overlooked by almost every
company I'm aware of right now.
It is kneecapping profitability
all over the place. It boggles
my mind. Why more companies are
not concerned about this. Help
Mark Ackers: me understand the
time that's got on from this
journey. When I asked you the
what inspired this idea, you
went to a very specific moment.
When was that moment? What year
it was? Late 2021 Okay, so I
mean relatively recently, then
right before then, perhaps not
the way in which you were
managing people, but you had
that realization in 2021 is
that, is that, is
Phil Putnam: that what you're
saying? Yeah, and it was a
realization born of pressure.
And
Mark Ackers: since that
realization, you've obviously
had three years putting this
into practice, and you thought,
I want to write a book about
this. What's been the reaction
to this book from people that
have read it and reached out to
you? What have you heard from
people. It's
Phil Putnam: been really, really
supportive, which is wonderful.
There's two primary reactions
that have come the first is,
this is so obvious, but no one's
ever talked about it before in
this way. People are amazed that
I'm the first person to put out
a book that really looks at
leadership in this specific way,
because the fact that people are
trying to get the life they
want. From the work they do,
that's a universal human truth.
So when I say it, it feels
revelatory to people because it
hasn't been articulated in this
way before to them, but it also
lands with them as something
that's always been true inside
of them, and they just never
really realized it before in
this way. That's the first
reaction. The second reaction
is, oh, my God. The data, the
research in this book, is so
compelling. I was really
fortunate to find incredible
data from the world's most
reputable sources on business
insights. This is like Gallup
Deloitte, ADP, pay scale,
Mercer, like all these really,
really top level, reputable
sources, there's just so much
information out there about what
people want from their
employment, what they are and
are not getting from it, and the
financial benefit or damage
that's caused to organizations
when leadership either
prioritizes their employees
desires and their ability To get
it, or they don't prioritize it.
And honestly, for me personally,
there were four drafts of the
book that I wrote, between the
second and the third draft is
where the research came in. And
to me, that's where the book
really became itself. I really
didn't feel particularly
confident with data, to be
honest, before I wrote this book
and before I researched it, and
it turned out to be like a
playground for me. It became the
most enjoyable and most
fascinating part of creating
this book.
Mark Ackers: Let's just pick
apart something you said there,
which I totally understand.
People love their lives more
than they love their careers,
right? It just feels obvious
when you say that out loud.
Here's the question that I'm
going to try and articulate, how
does that change from generation
to generation? And the reason I
say that is when I look at my
dad and his dad and their
attitudes towards working
careers, that work ethic, and
that's that's even like
academically as well, right?
That is all encompassing. But
then when I look at the other
side of my face, kind of like
two totally different mindsets
collided. But then when I look
at other generations as well,
maybe like generated below me, I
see more of that, like living
their lives more I think COVID
sped things up in terms of
people realizing they can be
more flexible. They can work
from home. You know, you can
have later starts, earlier
finishes. Yeah, I'm going on a
slight rant. But how have you
seen this change generation,
generation? Because my feeling
is, the generations coming up
are going to align with this a
lot more than the generations on
their way out. I would agree
with that, and this
Phil Putnam: is a great
question, especially right now,
because the battle over return
to Office mandates is in a fresh
round of heat right now, and
it's a perfect microcosm of what
you're asking about I did a lot
of work with understanding each
generation's relationship with
employment. And then there's an
entire chapter in the book
that's dedicated to how to how
to effectively lead and motivate
millennials and Gen Z, ers, four
generations, primarily active in
the workforce, basically the
younger half of the Baby
Boomers, Gen Xers, millennials,
which are also known as Gen Y,
and then the older half of Gen
Z. So right now, Gen Z is
between ages 13 and 29 roughly.
Ages 13 to 18, roughly, have not
yet aged into the adult full
time workforce, or like ages 13
to 2021, basically starting with
baby boomers. Fundamentally,
they are a loyalty driven
relationship with employment.
They believe in sticking with an
employer even through the hard
times, because it'll pay off in
the long run. They also believe
that loyalty to an employer is a
mark of good human character. So
you can't be a good person if
you hop employers a lot. Also,
all the benefits of loyalty were
available to them. You know,
pensions, lifetime benefits,
meaningful employer
contributions to retirement
funds, unions, etc, profit
sharing was also more common
back then. Then there are the
Gen Xers, which I am, by the
way, I'm right on the cusp of X
and millennial, but I function
primarily as an excerpt. Our
fundamental relationship with
employment is that we inherited
our baby boomer parents
expectation of loyalty, but we
didn't get a lot of the payoff.
So our journey is often a 20 to
25 year journey to realizing
that we can have agency in our
relationship with employment,
that we don't have to deliver
loyalty to an employer who's not
paying it back off to us. That's
fundamentally what it is for a
millennial. This is the biggest
change in attitude in the four
generations, the biggest change
is between Gen X and
millennials, millennials and Gen
Zers. Fundamental relationship
with employment is to find
purpose in it without being
beholden to it. The best way to
articulate that is that they
need to work in order to feel
fulfilled. World, but when the
needs of work and life are in
conflict, they will choose life
over work. So they value their
time more than they fear change.
And to say that again, because
it's one of the most important
phrases, any leader who's not in
those two generations can hear
millennials and Gen Z ers value
their time more than they fear
change. The reason why that's so
important is because, especially
right now, there's a lot of
people who are looking for work,
and a lot of leaders have led a
lot of rounds of layoffs very
recently, and a lot of leaders
are continuing to look for ways
to cut costs. So the attitude
that a lot of senior leaders
have right now towards job
candidates and hiring is that,
well, I can afford to lose
people because there's so many
people looking for work, and I
can afford to underpay and
people are so scared of not
having a job right now that
they'll stick it out even when
I'm not giving them what they
truly need. That is not an
accurate statement for
millennials and Gen Z years in
general, those two generations
value their time more than they
fear change. They value getting
what they want from their work
experience more than they're
afraid of the change of finding
a new job. It's really important
lesson for leaders to learn
right now, I combined
millennials and Gen Z ers. The
best way to think about
millennials and Gen Z ers is
take what's true for millennials
and just quadruple it, and
that's what's true for Gen Z
years. Now, there are some
slight differences, but
essentially, that's where we
are. I find millennials and Gen
Z years to be the most similar
of the four generations that are
in the workforce right now,
Mark Ackers: I'm a millennial,
and I feel like and maybe I'm
only speaking for myself, but I
know when I speak to my friends,
both of them, we feel like we're
the last generation that, almost
we had that pressure from the
generation above us about got to
go to work the employer. We see
that in some of our parents
still work. You know that that
loyalty, that pay off and you're
grateful to have a job like, I
know my mother in law, that is
her attitude to my wife. BEC,
well, you're just lucky to have
a job to my wife. And it's like,
No, she's not. You know, she she
deserves that. She can't get
another job any other point. But
when I look at the generation
below me, I see the change as
well. And I I feel like
Millennials are more in the
middle than perhaps what you're
saying. But that might just be
my own reality. But, yeah,
really interesting way in which
you break that, you break that
down. I think when I, when I the
book that you shared over as I
say, I could see that this felt
like something that might change
generation to generation. How
does that shift in perspective
change how leaders should
approach motivation then?
Because a leader right now might
have what I mean myself. I've
got millennials and I've got Gen
Z. I've got both. How should a
leader that might have
millennials and Gen Z change
their approach to motivation?
Sure.
Phil Putnam: Well, the first
question if you're trying to
change the way a leader handles
their employees, the first
question you have to help them
answer is, why should they
prioritize the needs of their
employees over the needs of
their business? That's the first
honest question that any any
legit leader is going to have to
work through. Because most of us
have been raised to believe that
the employee exists to serve the
needs of the business and not
the other way around. I actually
have come to believe it's the
reverse. Because how do you
think the business succeeds?
It's when the employees deliver
quality work on time and when
their tenures are long enough
that your operational cost of
replacement and attrition is
under control. I think the first
thing you have to say is like,
Look, you have to prioritize
your employees needs, because
still today, over 90% of any
company's assets are produced
and delivered to the market by
their human employees. So you
literally cannot succeed without
human employees. There may be
some business models that can,
but this is not a problem that
AI has solved. It's not a
problem that AI will solve
anytime soon, if ever, like,
there's no such thing as a
global enterprise, entirely
automated, machine driven
business. You need humans, and
not only do you need them, they
are over 90% of what you create.
So that's the first reason, is
you, you have to figure out how
to leverage human labor, human
intellect, human skill, to reach
and exceed your goals. And
that's how a leader keeps their
job. That's how a leader pays
their bills. Once you've
accomplished that, then you, you
look at the fact that what's
universal across all generations
is that desire to get the life
you want in exchange for the
work that you do, and then you
just learn. Not just what does
each generation want, but what
does each individual want? And
that's really what the heart of
what the book teaches. The book
is very useful. So there's a
framework in there that I
developed through my years of
doing this that allowed me to
very quickly and very scalably
gather those details of the life
that an individual person wants
in exchange for the work that
they do, and then analyze the
likelihood of me giving them
that life. And once I had those
two outputs from this model, I
could then make an. Informed
decision on whether to hire
them, or whether or not, whether
to keep them on my team, whether
to give them more development,
because it becomes this. It
becomes an understanding of, are
they going to get the life they
want from this job in reality,
not in magical thinking that a
lot of leaders like to employ in
reality, is this job going to
deliver on this person's
expectations and needs, and if
not, I need to not waste their
time. So I'm very employee
first, and I'm very frank about
that. All I want is for every
person on earth to get exactly
what they want from the time
they have a life that time is
short, it's precious. It's also
the only resource we cannot get
back. Money is easy. Money
comes, money goes, it's fluid.
Time is not I think one of the
most disrespectful things you
can do to a human is
deliberately waste their time
and when in it, when a company
really
Mark Ackers: powerful words and
phrases said there, Phil, that
just just impossible not to
resonate with the model you're
talking about, obviously, is the
life motivational discovery
model, and I want to dig into
that. I think, I think it'd be
fair to say that most people
that listen to this podcast will
manage Millennials or Gen Gen Z.
Here's the thing that I often
hear when I speak to managers
about motivation, is so the
sales leaders, they manage sales
people, and they find
identifying true motivation
difficult, and that can be for a
few reasons. They sit down with
millennials, or they sit down
with Gen Z's and they say, You
know what motivates you? And the
top level answer is money. I
want to earn money. I know
you'll know this to be true as
well, but that only motivates
you for so long. As soon as you
get pay rise, that makes you
happy for a couple of days, very
soon, you start getting used to
that standard of living, like
you spend what you earn. It
doesn't motivate you, really.
The other problem they have is
perhaps the younger generation,
Gen Z, I don't know. I don't
know what I want, right? It's
not like they've grown up
wanting to be in sales. They've
they've fallen into sales. One
of the reasons I ask everyone on
the Quick Fire hours, what do
you want to be when you're older
is, I want to see how many
podcasts I can get into before
someone's as a salesperson. And
it'll probably be, it probably
never happen. So when you
imagine Gen z's, they're in a
career. They didn't grow up and
want to have. They didn't study
at school, college, university,
haven't got a degree in sales.
They just fallen into sales.
They become a slave to
commission because they start to
earn money, they realize they
probably couldn't get that money
elsewhere, but they don't
necessarily know what motivates
them, because they're still
quite young. Is it as simple as
a very common answer I want to
get on the property ladder? Is
that really what motivates them
day to day? I suppose, in a
roundabout way, what I'm trying
to ask you is, how do sales
leaders, and I know I'll be
setting you up here for the life
motivation discovery model. But
how do sales leaders really
understand what truly motivates
their employees?
Phil Putnam: You ask them, and
then you accept their answers.
It's really not complicated.
Here's where most leaders really
trip themselves up before
they've even gotten going in
this conversation, two beliefs
that leaders have to stop
believing and have to get
themselves out of if they want
to drive top performance from
their people in today's market,
they have to stop telling
themselves that they know better
what their people want than the
people themselves do, and they
have to stop telling themselves
that they actually have a hand
in scripting what their
employees want. You have no
place and no power to actually
make somebody want something
different than what they want.
Your only power is to decide
whether or discover whether you
can give it to them or not, and
then choose how you might
proceed based upon the answer to
that question. If you can't give
somebody what they want, but you
still want them to keep working
at your company. Your only real
options to do that are to
manipulate them or lie to them.
You have to convince somebody to
stick around for less than what
they truly want. That's awful
human behavior, and it will not
create a positive long term
outcome. I understand
Mark Ackers: it's an obvious
answer ask them. I understand
that. Let me just challenge that
slightly. When you're asking
someone motivates them, that is
with the context of they could
be really young. This could be
their first or second job in
sales. They didn't dream of this
job. They could have self
limiting beliefs, right? They
don't know what is possible.
They don't know what they could
achieve. Do feel like you can
get templated answers of get on
the property ladder. I'm money
motivated because they've become
a slave to that commission. I
suppose what I'm hoping you can
share with the listeners here
is, if you're sat with someone,
and I totally get by the way,
you can't want more for someone.
They want for themselves, right?
They they have to. You can't
engineer something for them. But
how do we as managers really
understand the motivation beyond
those templated answers, beyond
those self limiting beliefs,
beyond those they don't know
what they don't know? How do we
find out? And I say I'm hoping
that's where the life motivation
discovery model is going to come
in,
Phil Putnam: definitely. So life
is an acronym, l, I, F, E, the.
Letters stand for lifestyle,
income, feelings, employment,
and these are the four buckets
of information that the answers
that I would get when I was
developing this model most
commonly fell into. So let's
talk about the I the income,
since that's what you've asked
about. First of all, I think
that wanting to get on the
property ladder or being
motivated by money are
completely valid motivations. I
don't think it's my place as a
leader to judge those or to
think that they're somehow only
partially informed. Can you
recall a time in your life,
regardless of age, where there
was truly nothing that you
wanted, that you were aware of?
People always want something,
whether it's a popsicle or
whether it's a house this idea
that someone would not be aware
of what they want at that point
in time doesn't line up with
human experience and with human
reality. I think the mistake
that a lot of leaders make is
they expect somebody to be able
to say, what do you want
forever. That's not the
question. The question is
simply, what do you want? Now,
that's the need you need to
assess. Can I give them what
they want? Now, when it comes to
motivation, the promise of
someday is a motivation killer.
You'll get that promotion
someday. You'll get that house
someday, if you stick around,
people don't believe in that. So
if you hire somebody and you
say, Hey, you want to get a
promotion, we can really deliver
that to you, probably in two to
three years. They're probably
going to be okay with that, but
if you don't deliver on that in
two to three years, they're not
going to stick around for
another two to three years. And
hope of that promotion money
itself is almost never the goal.
It's what money will do for the
person, how they want to use it
to shape the life experience
they want to have, both with the
things and the activities they
do, the material part of their
life, and then also the
emotional reality. A great story
to bring this to life is that I
was doing, I was delivering this
workshop at a conference a
couple months ago, and I had
people from every generation in
the workforce in the room, so a
really great discussion
developed among us about the
different ways that those
generations look at their
employment, and the woman who
was from the millennial
generation who spoke up, I had a
person from each generation
share their experience, and this
brilliant woman named Ashley
spoke up and said, Well, I
entered the workforce right
after the 2008 market crash, I
did everything I was supposed
to. I went to school, then I
went to university or college. I
did everything I was supposed
to, that the world told me would
make it possible for me to get a
job and get into my adult life.
And then I got handed a global
financial meltdown, and yeah, I
had to live in my parents house
longer because there weren't
jobs available and the economy
wasn't favorable. It was the
worst economy, you know, in
recent history, certainly of her
lifetime. And then I've spent
every every day and every month
and every year since then, being
judged as entitled and lazy and
unreliable by the senior leaders
above me simply because of the
date that I was born, and then
what was happening in the
economy at the time when I was
going from college into the
workforce. And that made such a
profound impact on me when she
shared that, because I don't
think that most leaders today
take seriously how disruptive
and how challenging it was for
that, that era of the millennial
generation, to have to go from
university to the workforce in
the wake of the economic
meltdown. Someone says, I want
to make money. If I'm running
the model, the life, motivation,
Discovery model on them, I'm
like, great. What do you want
that money to do for your life?
That's where the conversation
really gets interesting and
really gets going. One of the
things I look for when I ask the
money discovery questions, the
income discovery questions is,
do they just say I want to make
X amount of money by x date or
by x point in time? Or do they
talk about the impact they want
money to have on their life, and
is that impact more focused on
the material aspects of life or
the psychological aspects of
life? And I tell you, I have run
this on 1000s of people now I
have never, ever had a single
person only say I want to make X
amount of money by x point in
time, not once. Over 95% of the
time, what people talk about
when they talk about money is
the impact they wanted to have
on their material life and, most
importantly, their psychological
well being. There
Mark Ackers: was so much there,
Phil that we could break into I
think the thing that I was
taking from this is, this is
where it's changed for leaders
that two to three years and that
people aren't afraid of change.
And I think if you're managing
the older generations, you can
almost spin that story, paint
that long term picture, that
vision that stay with us. This
will happen wherever you're
managing the younger
millennials, the Gen z's. You
really have got two or three.
Years to help them get to where
they want to get to. And if, and
if you don't deliver on that,
that's where they're not afraid
to move on. Lots of people that
listen to this will manage young
sales professionals from the
ages of 18 to 2223 and when they
talk about, because I love to
talk about motivation and
understand what motivates their
teams, etc. And they say one of
the frustrations is they find
that what they get back is, I
want to earn money, I want to
get the property ladder, because
it's so tough and, and again, in
England, that is, that is how
you're brought up, in education
from your parents, it's you've
got to get a house, get a
property ladder. And, and I
think it's so difficult and
almost almost unachievable for
people now, growing up like I
worry about my children. Will
they be able to buy a house in
1520, years time? So my question
is, when you've got someone so
young that says they're money
motivated to get on the property
ladder, but we all know that's
probably not achievable in two
or three years, because even if
they do exceptionally well at
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Phil Putnam: Great question.
I'll go back again to say it's
not the leader's place to judge
the person's desires. It's the
leader's place to learn their
desires and then judge whether
they can fulfill them or not,
because that is the key to that
person's motivation and the key
to their performance. Also you
have to remember that the place
where you stopped learning is
the place where you stopped
asking. So if all you gathered
from your employee or your this
job candidate when you asked
them what they were trying to
accomplish in their career was
money and the property ladder,
that's because you didn't ask
them any more than that, and you
don't really have operable
information if all you've
gathered is that they want to
make money and buy a house. So I
think the onus is on the leader
to continue the discovery to
Okay, and what will it do for
you? If you have money and buy a
house, where do you want that
house to be? What do you want
that house to look like? Who do
you want to have living in your
house? Those questions alone, if
you answered those questions.
For me, here's what I would know
as your potential leader or your
leader. I would know if I need
to worry about relocation for
you based upon where you want
your house to be. I would know
if you plan to build a family or
expand your existing family
based upon what your answer to
Who do you want to have in that
home with you? And if you want
to build a family or expand your
family, more people, more pets
means more money, more time,
more anxiety, right? Also means
a requirement of work life
balance. I'm going to want to
know that. I'm going to know
about a person's level of
ambition. I'm also going to know
about what time scale they
expect to get things on that's
all really important information
for me, then to analyze, well,
these this is the constraints of
my business. This is what I can
pay this person right now. This
is my company's personality when
it comes to the pace of
promotions and pay increases. So
if the information the person's
giving me would require
meaningful salary growth within
the next three years, but I know
my company's personality on that
historically is to keep raises
slow and small. Well, then I'm
probably not going to get top
performance from this person.
And is hiring them a smart
choice for me? Probably not,
because they're going to be
unhappy, and then I'm going to
be unhappy. That's an example of
how the information the model
gathers for you can be put into
practice very quickly in a very
important, very practical
decision. Phil,
Mark Ackers: that is exactly
what I was wanting you to say. I
was trying to push you down
next. I wanted you to run that
example. And
Phil Putnam: here's the thing,
though, the reason why there's
so much conceptual conversation
to have about this is because
there is so much ideological
growth that needs to happen
among the current crop of
leadership. And let me actually
talk a little bit about why this
is a really important insight
for leaders to take away a very
common question I get is, okay,
sure, I get the business value
of discovering what my people
want, especially if they're
millennials and Gen Z ers. But
why does that really matter? Why
do I need to prioritize the
needs of these generations?
Here's why, combined millennials
and Gen Z ers are currently 53%
of the global workforce. The
younger half of Gen Z, ages 13
to roughly 20 have yet to age in
to the adult workforce. So those
two generations together,
combined are on track to be two
thirds of the global workforce
by the year 2035 only less than
10 years from now. Also a
current report and from early
2024 from manpower. Group, which
is a global staffing, recruiting
and employment insights
organization, found that in 2024
there's a global talent
shortage, regardless of the
candidates that are in the
market, and the influx of that
after all the layoffs, they
found that 77% of all companies
across all industries globally
are struggling to fill their
open roles. The third thing I
want to put on the table here,
before I draw out the insight,
is that, because still the
majority of senior leadership,
the ones who really dictate what
happens at a company and how
hiring and firing and
compensation goes, the majority
of those people are from the
Baby Boomer and older level of
Gen X, right? That's where the
majority of senior leadership
power is still currently
consolidated, but the majority
of the workforce is millennials
and Gen Zers. So you have this
significant generational divide
ideologically between what an
employee should do and should
bring to the work and what they
should be motivated by. So
there's a big difference there.
And I run into a lot of senior
leaders that basically say,
yeah, I get it, but I don't want
to, I don't want to prioritize
the way that the majority of the
workforce looks at work. I want
to do things the way I do. I
want to do them and I want to
get the results I want. Great.
That's what you want to do. It's
not going to work. You think
millennials and Gen Zers are
entitled and lazy? You're wrong.
You're just wrong. They just
have a different relationship
with employment than you do. And
if you want a successful
business, the smart strategy is
to not alienate the majority of
the global workforce, because
over 90% of your business assets
are going to be created and
delivered by the humans in that
workforce. There is no business
case. There is no valid business
logic that supports continuing
to alienate and undermine and
mock the needs and desires of
the majority of the global
workforce.
Mark Ackers: So Phil, what would
you say to a listener who
doesn't believe this, that they
don't believe that the life an
employee wants is a stronger
motivator than the desire for
the company to succeed?
Phil Putnam: Great question. I
first would say, you're probably
not alone, but here's what I've
learned over the years of doing
this, I've spoken about this and
taught this at conferences and
and workshops within companies
over the past several years. And
there's something I always do.
Every time I do this workshop, I
arrive at a point where I ask
the audience two questions. I
ask them, raise your hand, if
and only if you truly love your
employer more than you love
yourself. And I ask them, raise
your hand if and only if you
truly care more about your
company meeting its goals than
you do about yourself and your
loved ones getting the life that
you want. Now, I have asked this
question now to well over 3000
people. How many people do you
think have raised their hands
yes to either of those
questions? Go on. Tell us zero,
actual, literal zero. I would
have to imagine that if I was
somehow wrong about this, at
least one out of those 3000
people would have honestly
raised their hand and said, No,
I joyfully prioritize my
employer's needs above my own.
That's why I believe it, because
not only does it land with me as
a basic human truth, but it's
been proven out now by 1000s of
people that I've had this
discussion with, what I
Mark Ackers: think is a
potential danger that businesses
might be, might be like walking
towards, is they might have very
senior leaders that have got one
eye on retirement, that just
don't take it that seriously,
they don't look to prioritize
those younger generations. They
they are of that mindset that
they're lazy, they're entitled.
But why change when you get to a
certain age, you've got one hour
retirement and you can have that
real friction. Have you ever
seen that play out? Oh yeah.
Phil Putnam: And I actually very
specifically address this in the
book, because the reality is
that, let's say you're one of
those leaders. You're like, you
know what? I'm retired in five
years. I just want to write it
out and not worry about it. I
don't want to change. Okay.
Well, when you retire, you're
still a participant in the
economy. So when you retire, it
doesn't remove you from the
economy. It just demotes you
from being a driver of that car
to being a passenger. You now
have whatever you know,
retirement funds you have, and
maybe you're on in some paid
board seats, or maybe you do
other things. You have passive
income, maybe of active income,
but still, you're impacted by
the economy. Also, most
executives who have been
executives for a while, a
significant portion of their
retirement investment portfolio
is stock in the companies that
they've worked for and led at
along the way. So how those
companies perform is going to
impact the quality of those
leaders post retirement life.
It's going to dictate what the
rest of their life is like, from
the end of their career to their
death. If you're a leader right
now, if you're a senior leader,
if you're a C level leader who's
five years away from retirement,
you. You have never had more
power in your entire career to
shape the way that the people
who are going to run your
company when you're gone are
equipped to do so. Do you want
to spend those five years
ignoring them and under
equipping them and basically
setting them up for failure and
then having negative impacts on
your retirement portfolio,
financially and your quality of
life, or do you want to use the
opportunity that you have right
now for the next five years to
invest in those people and
increase the likelihood that the
companies that your post
retirement life partially
depends on is going to be
better? And
Mark Ackers: I think on paper,
you can't argue with that. I
know a lot of people will
struggle to make that real
connection and put that into
practice, but I think on paper,
what you say clearly makes
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description. Here's the other
thing I'm thinking, what you're
talking about here, like it's so
clear talking to you and reading
the book like you just you know
exactly what you're talking
about, and you say it's all
research proven, it's data, data
backed. And I think it's so
clear anyone listen to this
that, like, they should just buy
this book, if they want to get
better understanding and
motivating their employees, it's
just really clear that you're an
expert in this. Therein lies the
challenge, right? Lots of sales
leaders are a sales leader
because they're a good seller.
That doesn't make them a good
manager. They just get promoted.
That happened to me? Right? It's
not like I was identified as a
great manager, I just got
promoted from being an
individual contributor, and
that's what happens in sales
leaders are former great former
sales people. But how does a
leader really learn all of this?
Because it's totally different
to being an individual
contributor, starting to manage
people and motivate people. How
are they going to put us in
practice? Like, let's imagine.
They don't, they don't have your
book. Let's imagine, right?
Because this is a new book, how
they meant to really navigate
this. So
Phil Putnam: here's the good
news, regardless of an
individual leader's personality
or what they're great at and
what they struggle with, one of
something people can always
choose to do is listen like,
listening is a choice. Yeah, for
some of us, it comes naturally,
and some people are naturally
better at it than others, but
it's also something you can
choose to do, and it's something
you can empirically become
better at with practice. Just
start listening to people, just
start asking them about what
they want. That alone will be
very transformational for a lot
of leaders, because what will
happen is, not only will you
develop that muscle memory?
Those that skill set of, oh, if
I want to know, I should ask.
But also you're going to start
seeing patterns in and themes in
the answers that you get. And so
what listening does is it equips
you with information that you
can then use to form the team
that you have at any given time
into an optimally functioning
group of people, right? You can
also then make good operational
decisions that will facilitate
the best success of those
people. And you can also avoid
operational dangers and you can
avoid bad hires. You can know
when to move somebody on. You
can know when to keep somebody
you can know when to go fight
for a raise, and use your very
limited political capital within
your organization on something
that's going to be beneficial,
not only to the person you're
trying to help, but also to your
own career. And also say, just
from a personal standpoint, I
was a terrible listener. I'm not
a naturally gifted listener, but
I become a world class listener,
all because in the first six
weeks of my first year at
college, university, so I was 18
years old, a friend I had at the
time, one day, she looked at me
and she said, You know what,
Phil, you're a terrible
listener. And I looked at her
and said, You know what, Sarah,
you're right. I am a terrible
listener. It was the moment
where I was ready to hear it.
And so what I decided in that
moment, I said, You know what?
My number one criteria of
whether my time in university
has been successful will not be
whether I get my degree. I'm
going to get my degree. I know
that's going to happen. That's
that's not a problem. My number
one criteria will be if when I
finish and I graduate, I can
honestly say that I've learned
how to listen, because I just
sort of knew by instinct at that
point that this was going to be
the most important skill a human
could learn, and it was going to
transform my life more than
anything else. I don't know how
I knew it. I just did so I
followed that instinct and I
spent, I did, five years in
college rather than four. I
spent all five years to. Just
obsessively exploring what it
means to listen. And it did, it
changed my life. So it is
something you can learn and it's
something you can practice,
whether it comes naturally or
not, in all humility, I do very
frequently have people express
to me, you're a great listener,
and I think why is because,
first of all, I actually take
the time to listen to them, but
also I'm curious about people.
And to go back to the question
you asked, really, which I think
at the heart of it is a question
about, what are some of the
characteristics that are
essential to being a really good
leader, right? That produces
great performance from your
people, and especially a sales
leader, I think the curiosity
about people is really,
essential. If I was talking to
you, what the day that your
manager came to you and said,
Hey, you should become a
manager, because you're a top
seller. And you said, Should I
do it? Phil, and I was coaching
you, probably the first and
maybe the only question I would
ask you, to help you decide is,
how curious are you about
people? Do people fascinate you
when you're in conversation, do
you find yourself asking a lot
of questions about the person
you're talking to, and do you
want to learn about them? Does
that come naturally to you? And
then, based upon your answer,
that would tell you whether you
should go into leadership or
not? If you're not genuinely,
fundamentally curious about
people, stay an individual
contributor. You're going to be
an incredible seller. You will
make so much money. You will be
so happy if you don't want to be
a people leader, and you choose
not to be a people leader, oh my
God, you're going to have a
great life and a great career.
You have to want to lead people
in order to be good at it. And a
lot of sellers don't want to
lead people, and that's
completely fine. I actually
think one of the ways that
corporate and sales culture has
really underserved and I think
harmed a lot of sellers is
there's this idea that if you
don't go into leadership, you've
somehow failed. That if you're
over 35 and you're still an
individual contributor, there's
something wrong with you. No, if
you don't want to be a leader,
don't do what you don't wanna
do. It's gonna be better for you
and your employers. So I think
one of the best things we can do
for the sales industry is build
out the reality that a lifetime
individual contributor Seller is
a completely valid, respectable
career choice, and we should be
encouraging it, rather than
trying to derail those people
into people leadership. I
Mark Ackers: think you're
totally right. But again, I
think that's where Millennials
are trapped, because they don't
get that message from above,
where maybe Gen Z will and
there's more awareness around
it. Let's talk about active
listening. It's it's a vital
skill for sales people, as it is
for managers. You spoke about
how you spend years trying to
become a better listener? Let's
imagine just you know, someone
is listening to this right now,
and they think, you know what? I
know that that's a weakness of
mine. What are some of the
things that they can start to do
to become a better listener?
From your experience, I
Phil Putnam: just started with
what I knew. So I was 18 years
old. I was a baby, so I just
started with what I knew. I was
like, What do I know about
listening? It's looking at
somebody. It's asking them
questions. It's discussing
rather than broadcasting, you
know, it's making sure the
conversation is two ways. And I
just started there, and started
with the tactical, empirical
things, the behaviors that I
could change on the surface. So
I made sure that I was listening
more, asking more questions and
then giving space for the person
to answer. I try to interrupt
less often, which I still
struggle with. I'm a chronic
interrupter, but I'm working on
it. So once I had like, the
external behaviors together,
then I started dealing with what
happens in my mind while I'm
listening. I went to internal
and I realized that, oh, I'm not
really listening to what they're
saying. I'm just preparing my
next response. That's not the
best way to go about this. I
actually want to process what
they're saying. So then it
became that, right? So it went
from the empirical then to my
mental posture when I'm in the
action of listening. And then
from there, it just got more
deeper and more nuanced, because
then it became like, Okay, well,
what are the different ways that
people give me information? Yes,
there's verbal what's their body
language. You know also, what am
I sensing? What are my
instincts? How much can I trust
those instincts? As I started to
get to that level, then I would
ask people questions that would
either validate or invalidate my
instincts. Because what I
realized about my instincts is
they're right for me, but they
may not actually be, you know,
right in the situation, they may
not get me the information that
I need. So it was just like
continued to develop that
relationship, and what I
discovered is that well over the
vast majority of of what made me
a better listener was not about
the behaviors that I showed to
somebody else. It was about my
relationship with myself. And it
was do I have the self
confidence and the humility to
prioritize somebody else? Do I
have the confidence and the
humility? Ability to prioritize
what they're telling me over my
ability to respond to it. That
was a lot of where it got to
very quickly. But those are some
things that that somebody who
wants to improve their listening
skills can do. And is there any
books that you would recommend?
Yes, and this is where I am a
little bit off the beaten path,
off the typical thing when it
comes to what books do you read
to become a better leader or a
better seller? I do enjoy sales
and business books, but where I
actually get my most profound
insights for serving people as a
leader is actually from fiction
and from memoirs, and also from
television and movies. The
reason why is that I find that
fiction and memoirs are far more
descriptive and insightful about
human behavior than business
books often are. Business books
are often primarily about
operations, and even if they are
written to address human
behavior, they still are trying
to solve behavioral challenges
with operational solutions, and
that's never going to be
particularly effective. I'm
drawn to media and fiction,
memoirs, biographies. I love
biographies. Biographies have
changed my life because that's
about human behavior, and that's
about behavior in context. It's
about history and also TV and
film, especially large, globally
embraced shows. They're the last
piece of monoculture that we
have. Culture has become really
fragmented, but still our
primary reference points that
shape the way we respond to
various things at work largely
come from our life outside of
work. I find those human themes
and those cultural themes that
define what people bring to
their relationship with
employment in TV and film and
fiction and memoirs and
biographies, far more than I
find it in business books.
Mark Ackers: What's the
biography that's had the biggest
impact on your life? Then there
is
Phil Putnam: a musician named
Nina Simone. Her primary career
was basically from the 50s
until, really, until she passed
away in the early 2000s her
autobiography is called, I put a
spell on you changed my life,
and so I read it the summer that
I was really becoming a
songwriter, and she really
helped me understand the kind of
relationship I could have with
my artwork, the difficulties.
She really gave me a perspective
on relationship with audience,
with conviction about yourself
and realities of fame. Those
were just very, very seminal
lessons for me at that point in
not only my career, but also
just my development as a human
you know, I was really deciding
what I believed about the world
and what I wanted at that time,
and when I was was 20 or 21 at
the time, it was very, very
powerful in forming my
relationship with the world
around me, and it was powerful
for me as a leader, because what
is your leadership style? What
is your life, if not an
expression of your relationship
with the world around
Mark Ackers: you? You know what
I'm really enjoying, Phil, and I
thought it's the same very way,
like the formative years, but
your formative years, like
everyone, like when you younger,
you tell a lot between the ages
of 18 and sort of 2122 but
you're so aware of those
formative moments. And even at
the age you are now, in terms of
how long ago that was, you're so
aware of your formative years.
And I think lots of people don't
really recognize the big things
that have impacted who they are
today. I love how you can just
go back to then and recount the
impact it's had on you. Here's a
scenario I just I want to flesh
out with you, right? So what
about those people that work for
big companies? They are middle
managers, that they're they are
small cogs in big machines, and
they manage people that perhaps
they're a mix of inherited,
hired, etc, but they know they
can't truly give the people what
they want, but they can't let
them all go, right like this is
their job, and they've got their
own motivations, and they've got
their own desires, and they need
the people below them to deliver
on there so they can get what
they want. Obviously, the advice
can't just be well, you should
let them go. This is cruel.
You're wasting their time. What
is that person meant to do when
they are that cog, but they've
got these cogs beneath them that
report into them, these cogs
above them. And you and they
know that it doesn't all tick,
but it does go round enough.
What's your real advice there?
Because it can't be to just let
them go. The first
Phil Putnam: thing you have to
do is choose to embrace reality.
Stop lying to yourself. Stop
lying to your employees. Your
Business constraints are real.
Your employees desires are real,
they either align or they don't.
You just gotta get really honest
with yourself about it. Stop
being in denial, and stop trying
to believe that asking your
people to take a plate of scraps
and behave like it's a buffet is
ever gonna work. Then what I
would do is I would run the life
motivation discovery model on
all of my direct reports. I
would get the data, I would run
the analysis, and then I would
go to my senior leader, and I
would say, This is what my
people want. This is our level
of ability to give it to them.
Because of that, this is my
forecast of what is going to
happen with my team in the next
six to 12 quarters. This is what
we. Need to be prepared for, and
this is what we need to build a
staffing and a Results Model on.
That's what I would do. There's
a couple scenarios that will are
most likely to play out. One of
those scenarios is that the
majority, if not all, of your
team will turn over in the next
two to three years because your
business constraints are so out
of line with the desires of your
employees, that you actually are
going to want them to turn over.
You cannot get top performance
from these people. That's what
the data tells you. So you
shouldn't try to get top
performance from those people.
You should try to turn them
over, not in a vindictive way,
but in a supportive way. Have
that honest conversation with
them. Say, I'm sorry. I can't
give you the future that you
want here. However, there are
other roles at the company that
I have found that could
potentially give that to you.
That's a great solution, because
then not only does that person
get the life they want from the
job they have, but your company
pays a far lower cost of
transitioning that person. You
also don't lose their
institutional knowledge. So the
overall benefit to the cost and
profit of your company is
better. But even if you can't
give them another role at your
company, I believe it is better
to help them move on to a
different company than it is to
keep them because once they know
they can't get the life they
want, their performance will
dip, and they will be dragging
your results down for as long as
they're there. It may be weeks,
it may be months. For some
employees, this goes on for
years, giving subpar
performance, and they're
dissatisfied along the way. That
is the most likely scenario when
you cannot give your people what
you want, and as a leader, you
do not have the ability to get
more resources to do so, like is
very often the case at large
corporations. The other, more
hopeful idea is that, hey, like,
I've got five people on my team.
We're in range to give three of
them what they want. That's
awesome. So let's build a
strategy that really plans on
those three people having a
longer tenure than the other
two. Maybe you change your
workload. Maybe you change your
mandate. Maybe you go get more
head count, whatever the case
is, running the model and then
being honest with yourself about
what you can expect from your
team members gives you
information and gives you lead
time to make a legitimate
strategy for your piece of the
operation. That's what I think
are some viable options in this
situation that you've described.
What an
Mark Ackers: amazing answer that
was, Phil, and just some great
advice. I love the idea of
creating a forecast next six to
12 quarters of look, this is
what the team want. This is what
is likely to happen. This is
when it's likely to happen. I've
got a plan. There are these
three or five people, whatever
it might be, and we could give
them this, and I accept these
two perhaps aren't going to
perform at the level we want
them to. That is when you become
a real leader, right, where you
really look after your team are
planning, I think particularly
in sales, which obviously I can
speak more confidently about,
given that's my background. But
we're just so focused on the
quarter, the hamster wheel, this
quarter, this quarter, and
planning that far ahead for your
team just almost feels crazy. A
really good answer. The other
thing that it led really nicely
to is kind of what you mentioned
the start, and this is, I
suppose we're entering the final
stage of the podcast now, but
you mentioned about retaining
that person, right? If you
believe that we can give them we
want, perhaps not in this role,
but you don't want to lose that
person. You mentioned really
passionately, very early on that
we must talk about the cost of
replacing people. And as I said,
I know this book's filled with
data, and you've done a lot of
research, why don't you really
have an open mic here to sales
leaders listening when it comes
to replacing people and the
costs and why people should be
more aware of this.
Phil Putnam: So data, data,
data, this is going to be the
data data people section. I'm
going to lay out very quickly
some numbers for you. So Forbes
and Gallup have both found that
the cost of replacing one
individual contributor could be
anywhere from 50 to 200% of the
salary of that role. The wide
variance in that range comes
from variance across industries.
So the median of that is 125% of
a role. The average cost of
replacing a salesperson in tech
right now is about 150% of their
ote. Let's say you are leading
at 100% company, and you're
currently running 15% annual
attrition. By the way, for a
reference point, the average
annual attrition amount in the
year 2023 in the United States
was 21% so if you're running 15%
attrition, you're 6% better than
the average good for you, let's
say their OT is only $150,000
then you have to replace them.
It's 150% cost to replace them,
which means you're going to pay
$225,000 US to replace that one
person. You're going to pay more
to replace them than it costs to
pay them, right? And this
factors in not only the full
operational cost of filling that
role. But then also nine to 12
months of limited productivity
while that person's coming up to
full productivity in the world.
So that total cost $225,000 to
replace one person. But you're
in 100 person company running
15% attrition. So if your
staffing plan is to stay at 100
people, you need to do 15
replacements this year to stay
at 100 people, $225,000 times 15
is $3.375 million so do you have
$3.4 million to throw away? I
don't. And even if you do,
should you the revenue
organization exists to generate
revenue, but that revenue then
get calculated into
profitability, and if you are
spending millions of dollars on
attrition that could be avoided,
you are just increasing the
distance between your company
and their profitability, and
this is a danger for any company
model, whether they're privately
funded or whether they're
public. Then let's contrast that
with the cost of satisfying your
employees. So pay scale Mercer
and ADP provide data that
together tell us that the
average salary increase across
all industries in 2024 for top
performance in the same role is
4.5% in tech, the average is 3%
for top performance as a bar
setter, if you do a 3% raise on
$150,000 salary, assuming 40% is
taken out for taxes, investments
and benefits, your actual
increase in your pocket for a 3%
raise for top performance is
$225 per month in today's world,
that is not a meaningful amount
of money. Bottom line with
225,000 or $225 a month, you can
buy a $25 meal nine times. You
can buy 27 grande lattes at
Starbucks. Because the average
price for a grande latte in
Starbucks, in the US is around,
I want to say, like $4 or
something. You can buy 12 and a
half Big Mac extra value meals
at McDonald's. That's what you
can do with the entire monthly
impact of a 3% increase on
$150,000 salary. Mercer and pay
scale, tell us, though NADP,
tell us that a raise that people
find satisfying, that will
engage them in their work, that
will deliver better performance,
that will increase their tenure,
is between five and 10% so
barely above the average that's
currently being given. So if you
go hog wild and you give a top
performer a 10% raise on an
$150,000 pay, that costs you
$15,000 rather than $225,000 and
if you do that 15 times the
total cost of satisfying 15
employees is $225,000 so take
your pick. Do you want to pay
$3.4 million to replace 15
people? Or do you want to pay
$225,000 to satisfy and keep 15
people? The last thing I'll say
is this, the beauty of this
strategic pivot, funding the
cost of attrition, to
prioritizing the cost of
replacement, or, sorry, the cost
of satisfaction, is that the
solution is immediately self
funding at a multiple because if
you avoid replacing one person
at the cost of $225,000 you now
immediately have the cash on
hand to not only satisfy that
one person that you saved, but
to satisfy 14 others. Now, many
listeners to this podcast right
now are leading sales
organizations that are less than
15 people total. Your total ARR
might be less than $3.5 million
this could revolutionize your
entire operation, and it's self
funding. How many business
solutions do we know that are
genuinely self funding? I'd
Mark Ackers: be sending this
clip of the podcast to some CFOs
please do if I was a sales
leader, because obviously
there's, as I said, I know that
comes from a place of research
and data as well, not just
personal opinion and really well
thought out argument. Go. I'm
gonna, I'm gonna make this the
last question, because I know we
could continue talking for
another couple of hours, no
doubt, but sales leaders today,
like everybody, really busy, but
let's imagine they're going to
read your book, but they they're
only going to implement one
thing. What do you think that
one thing should be? If you only
Phil Putnam: do one thing
differently, ask your people
what they want, not only will it
give you the opportunity to
potentially give them what they
want and reap the benefits as a
leader. But even if you can't
give them what you want or what
they want, asking them will
revolutionize your relationship
with them, because most people
have never genuinely been asked
what they want by any leader in
their entire career. That alone
is something that people find
motivating. And the
Mark Ackers: way in which you
broke that down with if someone
says, I want to get in the
property ladder, the way in
which you broke that down was
exceptional. And I think just, I
think people don't think to go
beyond that, like, it's so
funny. In sales, we talk about,
get beyond surface level pain,
get to the root cause. But I
think in those conversations
about motivation, we stick at
that surface level, okay, they
want more money, okay, they want
a house, okay, they want a job
title, but it's about getting
you. Deeper and look sales
leaders used to be good sales
professionals. They should be
able to run that discovery, but
I think we sort of accept that
surface level answer and don't
really get to the root cause. So
yeah,
Phil Putnam: and here's the
thing I want to close on. First
of all, there is nobody more
naturally equipped as a job
function to do what I'm talking
about than sellers and sales
leaders, because if we're good
at our job, we're great at
Discovery. And that's all this
is. It's discovery. This is the
big reveal at the end, right?
It's just solution selling.
You're just solution selling the
job experience to your employees
or your job candidate. You're
finding out what their needs
are, what are the problems
you're trying to solve in your
life. Great news. This job, this
solution, can solve those
problems for you, and I'm going
to enjoy the benefits as a
result. Sales leaders and
sellers, we're naturally
equipped to do this, and so it's
what makes it such an exciting
thing for me, because also being
a seller and a sales leader is
really, really hard. It's really
hard, and it's such worthy work.
It deserves so much respect for
so many different reasons, and
it's a fascinating job to be in.
If you're sitting there feeling
like I want to do this, but I
feel like I can't, I want to
tell you, actually, if you're a
seller or a sales leader, you're
probably more ready and more
naturally equipped to do this
than most other job functions
are. I
Mark Ackers: love that. What a
great way to end and the
podcast, Phil, you have been an
amazing guest, someone that is
clearly just so knowledgeable
about motivating employees
understand their motivation.
It's been amazing. And I think
when people get to listen to
this, they're going to take a
lot from it and know they're
going to want to buy your book.
Just remind everybody again,
what is the book called, and
where can they purchase it from?
It's called
Phil Putnam: desire based
leadership, and you can buy it
on Amazon, anywhere globally. If
you're in the US and you want an
autographed copy, you can buy it
from my website, which is Philip
putnam.com I only ship within
the US, and it's literally me
sitting on my couch behind me in
the screen, addressing envelopes
and autographing books, but
otherwise, globally, it's
available on Amazon. Well,
Mark Ackers: thank you. I've got
no doubt people listening to you
or will be absolutely convinced
you know exactly what you're
talking about, and we've just
covered slivers of what is in
the book, and I was really
grateful that you sent me a
digital copy. Phil, just want to
say again, thank you for coming
on. Thank you for sharing your
knowledge and insights. Has
taken you years to build up.
Lots of data has been researched
and read and put together, and
you've articulated so well.
Thank you for being a fabulous
guest, and I hope you had a
great time. I have thanks for
having me.