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A lighthearted reading of Marcus Aurelius' Meditations. Join us as we read his private journal from 2,000 years ago and talk about how it makes us feel.
Hello, Tom.
Good morning.
Good morning.
We are the day has arrived.
We are going to finish book seven today.
Oh, that is what this episode.
Certainly it would be a
massive failure if we didn't.
It's we were right there.
It's we have half a page to read.
I think we're going to do it this episode.
So yeah, we might even
get beyond it or no.
Oh yeah, absolutely.
I think no.
I think we, we can and should.
So this is.
This represents, I think, us satisfying
one of our New Year's resolutions.
Let this be a lesson to the listeners
of the podcast about how you should
set your New Year's resolutions.
If you set them like us, you can
accomplish them on January 16th.
That's right.
But okay, I'm jumping the gun.
How are you doing?
Good morning.
Good morning.
Yeah.
Doing well.
We we're, Tom and I work at a tax company.
It is the beginning of tax
season, so things have been busy.
We were, it's one of those weeks
where, you know, Monday my wife and
I poured ourselves a beer each and
we're like, it's, it feels, everything
about this feels like a Friday.
Yes.
A week and a day.
Yeah.
And now it's Thursday.
So it's been it's been a week.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, I'm good.
Things are are taking along at work.
I'm enjoying it so far.
I like this time of year.
I find it energizing.
Um, yeah, no complaints.
I've also but truth be told, we were
talking a little bit before we hopped on
the call here and we were talking about
some, we both been reading a lot recently.
I've been reading finishing a book that I
actually started a long time ago and then
had to put back because the audio book
was snatched away from me by the library
system and then I had to get it back.
But it was a book called the Socrates
Express by a guy named Eric Weiner,
who's a former NPR correspondent
who lived all over the world.
And I thought of the podcast a little
bit as I was reading it and there's
something I wanted to raise with you
about it, which is he's He's a cool guy.
It's called the Socrates Express
basically because he's a guy.
He's not a professional philosopher
or anything He in some ways the
book resembles our podcast and
a little bit because yeah, it's
just a guy who's interested in
philosophy Who's talking about it?
He has done lots of travel and reading
related to philosophy, but he's not
a Professor or anything it's called
the Socrates express like a train
because he also really just loves
riding trains So the format of the
book is he's like Taking little trips
mostly by train all over the world and
talking about different philosophers in
different places That would be relevant
to them and often relating what's
going on his train adventure to their
philosophy Yeah I really liked it too.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's a cool book.
The very first he does subtitle of
the book is life Lessons from Dead
Philosophers or something like that.
And he visits like 14 or 15
different philosophers through
from throughout human history.
The very first chapter is Marcus
Aurelius, Which I enjoyed reading, but
I had read that in the past that the
one that came up while I was listening
more recently was Epictetus another.
Stoic philosopher and Eric Weiner
specifically describes a very fun
experience of going to stoic camp in
the Wyoming mountains where there's
a philosophy professor who Runs this
thing where you can come hang out with
him in the mountains of Wyoming for a
week or something and everybody Else
and you do all these stoic Exercises
and one of the things they do is
something called voluntary deprivation
Which is where they intentionally, I
mean it's what it sounds like, they
intentionally forgo some of the pleasures
of life in a kind of stoic exercise
so that they can appreciate it more.
They're always talking
about voluntary deprivation.
The camp that they have
is a very bare bones camp.
This guy.
Eric Weiner is funny because he talks
about how he likes coffee and other
nice things that he's not getting.
But, okay, this is a very long wind up
to a question that I was thinking about
while I've, while I was reading this,
which is that I we have traveled a bit
together, you and me, dating back to
when we were pretty young, and I feel
that sort of voluntary deprivation was
something that was always a component
of those trips, and especially something
that you were really an advocate for that.
I came to really but it's something
that I feel like you've just always been
naturally attuned to is the pleasure of
roughing it for a little while or giving
up some of life's comforts in order to
appreciate them more and feel like you've
had an adventure and that kind of thing.
I wonder if just does that resonate
for you and do you have any
explanation for why you were in touch
with that from such a young age?
Yeah, that's funny.
Okay so that's a great point.
The context here is Tom
and I have traveled a bit.
We and especially the younger
the, the younger we were, the
more the point of those trips was,
we're not gonna take anything.
We're gonna survive on like
whatever, ten bucks a day, and
we're, we're gonna really rough it.
That was the whole vibe, and part of
the, part of the fun of it is that we
wouldn't, we'd go to You know places that
were a little bit on the edge of places
we were less comfortable So for example,
we went to Cuba and yeah traveled around
and yeah, so you're right I have this
I have always had this innate thing.
I did not read Marcus O'Reilly.
Yes That was what I was wondering.
How did Paul know this before he knew it?
This is what I mean when I say you
remember at the very first episode.
I was like, I think I'm already Like
I already innately believe these
things before we even started reading
it because I really do I think my
I guess my parents It's still or
like they believe these things.
Maybe it was especially like where they
grew up with an absence of religion
or other more modern I don't know like
international philosophical writing.
So they, I think it was very
acceptable still to, to be aware of the
ancient Greek and, Roman philosophy.
So maybe that was what it was.
That was like very common in,
in the Soviet union to be.
To be stoic but yeah, whatever it
is, you're right to point that out.
Yeah.
And I think it is funny look, a lot of
religions are based on that same concept.
Yes, yeah.
Apostata, yeah.
Yeah, fair point.
Yes, it's not, yeah, almost all
of them have the concept of a
priesthood or whatever, where
you forego this kind of thing.
Maybe the difference is that I've
always just assumed you have to
create, you have to create those
spiritual experiences for yourself.
No one's going to make those for you.
If you grow up in a more religious, it's
when I go to Sunday school or when I go
to, church on Sunday that's where I have
to sit on my butt on a hard, wooden thing
and listen, even though it's boring,
like that, that, but that was in the
context of someone is doing it to me.
Whereas I grew up being like,
I have to do this to myself.
Yes.
Yes.
Okay.
Yeah.
I like that explanation for it.
Yes.
I think that's right.
A lot of people maybe already have
the container for this kind of
experience built into their live life
and you detected from an early age.
Wait, I want to have that
kind of experience, but no
one is handing it to me.
So let me build it for myself.
But I guess the other thing that I really
remember about it or that struck me at
that age was that it wasn't just about
some sort of it didn't feel philosophical.
It didn't feel like I think that
I should be having this kind of
voluntary deprivation experience.
It really came from a
sense of, this will be fun.
This will be there was a sense of
adventure and challenge to it, too,
I think, that went beyond just the
sort of asceticism or whatever.
To be fair, I think that's common
for kids when traveling, right?
To be like, it's fun to slum it.
Isn't that common?
I think, I don't think you're the
only person who's ever had that
experience, but I do think It's a mix.
Even on our trips, there
was tension between us.
There was sometimes tension between
our other, our friend David, who
would come to come along on the trip.
We wouldn't always agree on to what
extent it was fun to, yeah, be really
living on the sort of edge of our comfort.
Do you want to do it now, Tom?
You want to take another
edge of comfort trip with me?
Yeah, I do.
See the appeal style.
Yeah, I have my own version.
We can do India.
Yeah We could do just like training
around India as a group actually.
I think we'd like that.
Another version of it that I really
like too, this is not to dismiss that
sounds great, but backpacking and that
kind of thing is another version of
that I have come to enjoy as an adult
too that I think has a lot in common.
Yeah, so that's your version of it.
You grew up with that.
Yes, but I didn't discover that
until I was in my late 20s.
You had this thing in your
Teens that was you were just
in touch with this very early.
I thought Anyway, I just made me
think of This show but by the way,
I think the book Socrates Express is
overall, you know He touches on lots of
different philosophies, but it's like
it's crazy to me Maybe this emphasizes
your point of how much similarity
stoicism shares with other major bodies
of philosophical thought but Since my
stoicism radar was up so much of that
book is basically like he's talking about
other philosophers But he's constantly
relating them back to the Stoics It
really is like a how does stoicism connect
to a bunch of different which is fun.
I think he's a nice narrator of that.
He also does the lovely thing I think
of, a lot of philosophy reading and books
can be very dense and hard to tolerate.
He has a nice kind of oh, I'm just
a dad who's like interested in
this stuff and has learned a little
bit about it and let me share it
with you in a very accessible way.
He strikes a very nice balance there,
I think, of being interesting and
telling you enough to pique your
interest without being a slog at all.
It's a great book, and I'm realizing
I didn't quite finish it, because
I don't remember that stuff.
This is a good section.
But I remember really enjoying it.
Okay.
Yeah.
Anyway I'll stop going on about it, but
I I really enjoyed it, recommend it to
folks who are interested in this stuff.
Nice.
Nice.
Yeah, it's funny when I bring this up to
Oopie who I think a little bit because
she's in a more western environments now
You know professionally and like living
in the US, but she grew up in India.
Yeah, she's always okay Yeah, your
stoicism like our version of that is
I you know, Jainism or something like
it's more yeah there is a more like a
no fluff set of principles that underlie
you know, like a bunch of things.
And yes, Western writers tend to
point to the Greek philosophers and
Stoicism for that, but Eastern, like
a Southeastern writer of my point
You other things so yeah, that was
her which I think is probably fair.
Yeah, totally.
Yes.
Yeah, I think that's correct for
sure And yes, it's about in some
ways what we culturally are aware of
and yeah and have the easiest access
to yeah Or maybe just Buddhism.
Sorry the more I think about it Yeah.
Yeah.
I forget if she said Jainism or Buddhism
but something that something that's just
more like less about the, here's what
happened and here's, here's the rituals
and more just like live life like this.
Yeah.
It's like Taoism, Buddhism, Jainism.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I don't know.
Okay.
Nice.
Yeah.
Nice.
Yeah.
Anyway, that was my little dose of
thinking about the, the podcast.
This week.
Let's do it.
Shall we?
All right.
We are right here knocking on the door.
Let's finish book seven.
Okay.
We are at entry 72.
Whenever the force that makes us
rational and social encounters
something that is neither, then it
can reasonably regard it as inferior.
Boy, what is he talking about?
Name one thing that is not
reasonable or rational.
Rational and social.
Sorry, name one thing that
is not rational and social.
Rational and social.
Bear.
Donald Trump, okay.
No, I'm not going to be political.
I yeah, okay.
A bear.
The force, yeah, that makes
us rational and social.
I guess, do you think
he's talking about people?
I was going to try to give him the best.
Generally talking about people, yeah.
Yeah, okay.
The force that makes us rational
and social encounters something.
It doesn't say someone.
He says something.
It does say something.
I'm always thinking of some like
ambitious rank climbing Quartz member
as his arch nemesis at all times.
Yes.
That's probably too.
That's that would that
person not be social?
I guess it depends on
what you mean by social.
Yeah, I guess like anti social, like he's
doing something that's bad for society.
So that makes it not so yeah.
Okay.
Yeah.
Someone who's being, yeah.
Okay.
So yeah, some of this hinges on
the meaning of the word social.
Yeah.
Okay.
So somebody who's being.
Selfish in some way you could
describe as both being perhaps
irrational and antisocial.
Yeah
He says we should regard
such a person as inferior.
Basically, this is a funny entry
because usually he's his entries
are some version of like You'll
want to regard it as inferior,
but really there's, yes, exactly.
Try not.
This one just ends at it's inferior.
Yes, this one is a Keep it
keep like a keep us off on our
toes a little bit off balance.
Yeah Trust your instincts, is the line.
Okay, that's why, I guess I, I still want
to maybe try to parse it one more time as,
what if he's not talking about a person?
It says something.
Okay, sure.
He's usually pretty against
regarding people as inferior.
The death of a daughter.
The force that makes
us rational and social.
Okay, yes, it could be an event.
But it's not like, how do you
regard an event as inferior?
Yes, yeah, that's, yes, okay,
that's why I said something
stupid like a beast, basically.
Yeah.
But that doesn't really satisfy me
either, yeah, force makes us rash.
Okay, you're right though, you're
right to like parse apart this verse.
So it's a force.
It's not rationality and being
social, it's some force inside of us.
Yes, and it's actually not even
us encountering these things.
It's the forces encountering those things.
I think I read this as intuition.
Your intuition of integrity.
You've built up some intuition,
trust your intuition.
It's if you feel this way it can be
reason like it's almost like an empowering
statement like listen sometimes It's okay
to just let your intuition call the shot.
Yes.
Okay.
Wow.
I like that so much better.
Thank you for clarifying that.
Yes.
Okay, so he's not talking about
our Encounters in the world.
He's talking more about our internal
process of Decision making or whatever,
dealing with the Const or differing
streams of information we're facing or
whatever And then part of your brain is
the rational, social part And when it
butts up against something that is not
that You should pick the side that's
rational and social Do you, Tom, I've
been going through this process I feel
like lately I've been trying to give
my intuition more credit Like when
I have a gut reaction to something,
I try not, I try to be like, let me
think about let me take that seriously.
Yeah.
Do you, I don't know.
Is that a journey that you're on?
Yeah, definitely.
I think, yes, absolutely.
I, that, that resonates with me for sure.
That has been, I think that's something
that's been going on for me for.
Um, truthfully, it's, that is one of the
ways that I frame my journey from academia
to my life now is that there was, I had
this very logical, rational plan about
what my life was going to be and look
like, and yet I was really part of me
in my, you could call this my intuition.
It's also, I sometimes articulated it more
just as my heart was not fully on board
with that plan, but my brain was like no.
Look at how logical and
rational this plan is.
And it took a long time for me to
wake up to the, Oh, wait a minute.
My intuition knew that there was
something wrong with this plan,
but I didn't want to betray my
brain by saying it or acting on it.
So that for me was a deep, humbling
lesson in the, wait a minute, listen
to the heart, listen to the intuition.
The rational brain is not the
be all end all because it locks
in on stuff that isn't fully.
True or what you want.
I'm so it's so awesome
hearing you describe this
every time you describe this.
I just I wants to Understand it better.
I want to dig into it.
We'll do it sometime Tom But yeah, you
really yeah, you really do you point
to that moment in your life and it just
seems so clarifying And yeah, I think
is I listen to I can't quite internal.
I can't quite like I feel like I want
to really understand what you're saying
and I like understand it on the surface.
And I just, I want to dig in a
little bit and be outside of this
podcast, but okay, we can do it now
too, if you want, but yeah, we can
also, we could do it later as well.
I'm an open book.
I know.
I know you're an open book.
I just don't know exactly what to ask yet.
It's just it's a very.
Sorry, I'm selfishly trying to
apply it to my own life and trying
to figure out what it means.
So that's why.
Yes.
We can also circle back to it if there.
Yeah, let's do that.
But yes, okay.
If there's if questions arise for you.
Yeah.
Anyway we can loop back.
But yes, I think for me,
that intuitive lesson.
It sounds like you're on the same.
The way you asked the question of me
there, you said you were putting more
trust in your own intuition these days.
Sounds like you're on a similar.
Except that I can't, I
haven't, I'm not acting on it.
And I'm still, I'm aware I'm at
stage one, which is awareness.
Okay.
And I don't know.
Yeah.
Anyway.
All let's not put too much of a golf
between us that I'm some sort of
perfect intuitive actor now, but yeah.
Okay.
I hear you.
Yeah.
It was a, yeah interesting line.
Whenever the force encounters something
that is neither rational or social, then
it can reasonably regard it as inferior.
The force can.
Yes.
Everything is about the force.
Yes.
And the force, it's interesting.
It's not you can reasonably regard it.
It's it.
Yeah.
Yes.
And we should be interested in whether
or not the force is reasonable.
Yeah.
Exactly.
Yeah.
It's quite far removed from
whenever we encounter
something that isn't this.
Then it's probably inferior.
That's not what it's saying.
Yes.
It's three levels.
Yes.
It's more abstraction away.
Yes.
I agree.
Yeah, I think there is something about
the process, something I like about that,
the process that we go through as we
read this text that happens over and over
again, where I think there's something
in our brains where we read entries
like this and our tendency is make it
concrete, make it so specific and we go
through this thing and then we have to
Do this gentle, relaxing afterwards where
we're like, okay, we've tried to make it
concrete and we realized that it's not
quite as concrete as we want it to be.
And that's okay.
That is what it is.
But there's something about
that, like latch on and then
relax and latch on and relax.
And I think is part of the
exercise of reading this book.
But this is a, this is an
especially poignant example of that.
That's an interesting observation.
Okay.
Number 73, you've given aid
and they've received it.
And yet, like an idiot, you
keep holding out for more.
To be credited with a capital
G good, capital D deed.
To be repaid in kind.
Why?
Wow.
Okay.
So he did something nice for someone
else and they didn't repay him.
Yes.
You haven't.
He has not received his credit.
Yeah.
Yes.
Capital G capital D.
That's nice translation.
I wonder what it yeah, yes.
What it was written in
Latin or Greek or whatever.
Yeah.
Okay.
Very specific.
This one's extremely specific.
Yes.
Have you felt this way recently?
Okay.
Yeah.
Recently.
This is one that I feel like
just comes up across philosophies
and religions and stuff.
That you should do good things.
Yeah.
That when you do good things
in expectation of repayment.
Then you set yourself up to be
unhappy and it's just not a good
way of doing the good deeds.
And if you can come up with a way
to do the good deeds with no such
expectation, you'll be much happier.
Yeah,
I feel that this is prescient.
There are, I'm applying this to work.
I feel like I'm often at times
in the workplace where I feel I'm
like I'm going to, I push myself to
do a thing really well and I feel
like no one really, like it's good.
It's the outcome is appreciated, but
like the inputs are not, I'm not credited
or at least that's what's in my brain.
And it makes me unhappy.
It makes me a little resentful or
makes me want to go eat a bag of chips.
Like in a way that, yeah it's obviously
the best version of that is that's it.
I did the thing.
I feel good about myself
and that's all I need.
I don't need.
Anyone notice it?
Yeah.
I think for me at least I totally, yes, I
recognize that feeling from work as well.
For me at least, I think remote
work specifically is like a, the
highest degree of difficulty version
of this, because it turns out.
Like for me, what I actually want
in that moment in terms of credit
for a good deed is very, it's a very
small amount of social interaction
where someone's yeah, nice.
This is sick or whatever.
And then I'm like, great.
Satisfied.
Did my thing.
That was all I needed.
This stupid little nugget of praise.
Yeah.
And yeah, whatever we have slack or
whatever, but somehow when it happens
remotely, just the ability to feel
like you're being appreciated for
your work is, it's harder, I think.
Yeah, that's probably true.
And yes, I think we have to
be more in touch with, in
some ways, thanks remote work.
You're helping us teach us this.
Yeah, thanks for the lesson.
this stoic lesson all the time.
But no, I totally know what you mean.
I can definitely get frustrated
with this exact thing if I'm
doing something hard and no one
seems to know and what the heck.
Yeah,
this book I'm reading, Building
Better Families, one of the core
premises is you need to have
you need to have a North Star.
in your life, in your family life, in
your kid's life, and the author posits
that the North Star should just be.
Is this decision going to help me
become the best version of myself?
And so in a, yeah, which is a very
simple kind of neat idea and, and so
the way you just described thank you
remote work for helping me teach me
this is like a great example of that
style of thinking where you're like.
You really view everything as
a growth opportunity and how it
impacts the best version of yourself
It's a very like self centered.
Yeah, it's nice.
That was that's very interesting to
me Yeah, the way you articulated that
because I think a lot of you know I
think on the surface a lot of people
might think a book like that is about
parenting especially Yeah, the north
star might be about no It's not about
you anymore, it's about these new people
who you've brought into the world.
And theoretically, yeah your goal is
to make the other people help the other
people on their journeys to become the
best version of their selves as well.
Yeah.
Yes.
But the point being that those things are
actually aligned with one another, right?
Extend to.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's interesting.
Yeah.
So certainly the best version of yourself.
Gives aid and does not
expect to be repaid in kind.
Yeah.
Or, sorry, that's not even it, that's
not even what am I trying to say?
Actually that statement was wrong.
That statement is like level one kind
of do as the Bible tells you thinking.
Yes.
I think it's more I think it's more
like the best version of yourself
doesn't eat that bag of chips after
having a or is able to, Provide
gratitude to themselves and yeah knows
how to build that around like That's a
reinforcement structure around themselves
and it's not at the whim of other
people's Remembering to say thanks.
Yeah, that's what it is.
Yeah.
Yeah, it's less like finger wagging should
and more Yeah, you know what is gonna make
you happy or like long term there is this
kind of very sweet like Joy flavor you
can get from doing this kind of thing.
I think when you're really In your flow
or whatever, really at the top of your
Maslow's hierarchy, you can be like
you said, I did some good work and I
sent it off into the world or whatever.
And that if you really are in touch
with the universe, I think can just
be a pleasure in and of itself.
And whether or not anyone noticed
or appreciated, or even if they say
Hey, this sucks for some reason.
You can still ideally be in touch with
the fact that actually I did some, I
whatever brought a little bit of order
to the universe and did a good thing.
That to me is the part that I want to
be in touch with something like this.
So I've been lately, I've been just like
sometimes after work I'm be like, yeah,
it would be, I was a good CEO today.
Yeah, I did a good job at my job today.
Yes.
I still tell her.
I still tell her.
That's okay.
I think you're allowed to be.
She takes my word for it, yeah, exactly.
She doesn't really dig too deep.
I think that's, I think that's the best
of both worlds in some way where you're,
you really are practicing the thing
that this is telling us to aspire to,
but you're also getting just a little
bit of the social reward that we were
describing earlier by getting to say that
and then she says, good job or whatever.
Yeah, exactly.
Afterwards.
Yeah, I think that's great.
I think that's a lovely practice.
I think that's I've been speaking of
parenting a good thing to I can imagine
like modeling that for kids seems
like a great thing to do to come home
from your job and say that would be
a nice thing to model for children.
Yeah, I do feel like we know it's
not a mystery like it's not Yeah,
no, if you did a good thing, yeah,
like it's yeah, but it can be for yes
for me It is much more a question of
to what extent am I in touch with?
Yeah, the this sort of higher
level thinking versus am I yeah a
little blinded by oh I'm just angry
because I'm feeling underappreciated
or Yeah, whatever, I don't know.
You felt that way at work too much.
I guess it makes not
often, but it happens.
Yeah, yes, I also work in kind
of an isolated function at times.
So sometimes there is like a degree of
yeah, do people know what we're doing?
Yeah, that makes sense.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
Number 74.
No one objects to what is useful to
him to be of use to others is natural.
Then don't object to what is
useful to you being of use.
Wow.
Okay, on the same subject here, I feel
to be of use to others is natural.
I don't know that I
follow his syllogism here.
He's like doing like an A
implies B implies C, therefore
A implies C type thing.
But I don't know if I agree
with the logic of it exactly.
No one objects to what is useful to him.
To be of use to others is natural.
Okay okay.
Then don't object to what is
useful to you being of use.
I don't know about this one, Marcus.
Sorry.
Okay.
All right, so I agree with a no one
objects to what is useful to him.
Okay, I'm on board.
Okay agreed to be used Others is natural.
I'm cool with that.
It's where we're here Okay, part of
our deal is to be useful to each.
I wouldn't mind an extra sentence,
but I okay sounds good Yeah and don't
object to what is useful to you.
That's just golden rule, right?
Being of use.
Yeah, I think he's implicitly
invoking the golden.
He's not saying it exactly.
He's not saying yeah doing to others, but
Is to me the actual logic here, I
know he's not really that kind of
philosopher But the I guess I see
why this is an implicit golden rule.
This is meant I think that's what this is.
Yeah, but I agree.
It's a little bit, it's a
little bit fuzzy on the edges.
Yeah.
It's mostly, I guess my objection
is that sentence A is about
people assessing what is useful to them.
And then sentence B is about being
useful to others is not this.
Yeah.
You can't like C is not
going to follow here.
Yeah.
And of course, the Golden Rule is
pretty inferior to the Platinum Rule.
Do what other people actually want, not
necessarily what you would have wanted.
Crazy!
Okay.
I dig it, though.
I do, okay, for all my quibbling
logic wise, I agree with the the,
yes, the implicit Golden Rule here.
Or, I guess it is it's not
exactly golden, necessarily.
Yeah, I remember.
So speaking of this, sorry, Tom, go ahead.
I'll just say quickly that I do want
to hear what you were going to say.
There is something missing here
for me, which is that whatever he's
saying, the input, the subtext here
is that being useful to other people
might be objectionable to you.
And he's trying to persuade
you out of objecting to it.
And there is.
There's something funny about that to
me, because in other parts of the book
and in my own life, I feel like there
is also just this big satisfaction
that can come from being like,
there's what higher calling is there
than being useful to other people?
And here he's very much
about Oh, it's such a burden.
And he's just trying to logic you out
of the burdensomeness of it, where I
feel like there's a stronger argument to
be had and, hey, it's what you're for.
It's a delight.
Yeah.
Yeah, that's right.
Maybe he didn't need the sort of
counterpoints to make his points.
I think it comes right after 73,
which was, you do a good thing.
No one appreciates it.
You feel bad.
Yes.
And so then, therefore, don't
object to what is useful.
Yes.
But yeah, it's a good point.
He's constantly doing this implicit oh,
but the weaker part of you believes this.
Yes.
And I'm going to argue against that.
Yes.
Which, yeah.
Is that what you were about to say
when I interrupted you or were you?
No, I just thought it was funny.
So I thought that the, so I remember.
One of my early, one of my first jobs,
I was like working a bunch and like
being very useful to the business.
And and my manager at the time was
like, I was like, okay, this is great.
Like, how do I get more out of this guy?
And so he was like what do you want?
Like, how do you, what do you want?
What do you want your career to go?
What do you want to do?
Whatever a career conversation.
And I was like, I just want to be useful.
That was literally my line.
And I was like, that was
like revolutionary to me.
Like I, and I think in some ways
it is all we wants, like the worst
feeling would be to not be useful.
Yeah, absolutely.
Yes, I totally resonates for me.
Yeah.
And so I remember at the time I was like.
I don't I don't even necessarily,
I don't need to be put in charge
of this part of the organization.
I don't need to be, like,
managing all of these.
It's not really about that.
It just so happens.
that I'll be very useful if you put me in
charge of this part of the organization.
Yes.
Genius.
What a rhetorical tactic
young Paul developed here.
No, but not even, it wasn't
even a I believed it, right?
Like I was like, I can be so
useful to the organization.
You just let me fix this.
Yeah.
Let me own this whole part of the product.
And if you don't let me own that.
Yeah.
Then I don't know.
I'm just not going to be that.
Hard to imagine how useful I'll be.
Yeah.
Yeah, exactly.
No but I like, it wasn't,
it was full method acting.
Nice.
And did they let you do the thing?
No, they didn't quite
let me do what I want.
I think at the time I had an over inflated
sense of my own skillset and they didn't
walk me off the cliff well enough.
So I quit.
Yeah.
I see.
Okay.
Wow.
But that's fine.
It's that was not their fault.
That was a journey for me to go on.
I see.
So did your thinking change about
that over time that the degree to
which you care about being useful?
Yeah.
There's just like more than one
thing to be useful for now, like at
the time, the only thing I wanted
to be useful in was work and now I
have some other, other priorities.
And also, yeah, being useful is the
selfless part of it that you do part of
being useful is taking care of yourself
so that you can be useful or whatever.
Yeah.
So there's that element of it as well.
There could be an ego component to it too.
Like useful.
Actually, it's total, it's
100 percent ego actually.
Yeah, there's a lot of that.
There's this analogy.
From an English class in high school
that I remember where we, one of my,
one of our teachers there used to work
for Habitat for Humanity was like a, an
actual employee at Habitat for Humanity.
And so all these people, volunteers show
up and their desire when they volunteer
for Habitat for Humanity is to be useful.
They really want you, like you show up
to help people build a house or whatever.
You want to be like, I helped, yeah.
But here's the secret.
At habitat for humanity that I remember
him talking about is that, the most useful
thing that volunteers can generally do on
a location like that is sort nails that
nails get all mixed up for some, I forget
what the detail is exactly, but You need
particular kinds of nails and they get
mixed up or they get donated in bulk.
And so the most useful thing you can
do if you're a volunteer at Habitat
Humanity is to sit down and sort nails of
different lengths and sizes into piles,
basically, but that's not satisfying.
Like people don't want to, they want
to hammer a wall together or whatever.
When they're there.
So we would talk in that English
class a lot about, it was some
sort of like service based class.
I forget exactly that, but that's yes,
usefulness and specifically sorting nails
as an analogy for ego less usefulness
versus the more ego full usefulness.
What are good points?
Oh, you called that one.
That's actually a great call out.
Usually being of use.
Or I guess you're right, there
is a way to do it well, but,
okay, here, the analogy is okay,
you're retired, and, there's only
do you need to feel bad about not,
about enjoying your life, because
you're not being of use that much?
Yeah.
I don't know how much
that really helps you.
Yeah, I think it's a an
interesting question.
My sense for my own life so far is
that I would have a tough time Yeah,
not because not necessarily even for
oh, I feel guilty because I'm being
insufficiently useful or something like
that but just more because I think so much
of the pleasure and day to day meaning
I get is from feeling like I was useful
to others that it would just feel If I
didn't have that, it would be hard to
know how to orient my life a little bit.
The tricky part is when you're trying
to be useful but you're not actually
useful or there's not really, this is the
standard, like kids leave the nests, yeah.
There's only so much that you can do at
that point and you want to be, of use.
But yeah, it's going to take
three hours a week instead of, 50.
Yeah, I wonder, I guess for somebody in
that situation, if they, if the sorting
nails analogy might help them a little
bit where there's being of use and
then there's there's some people are
very specific about what form, what the
form of that usefulness should take.
And you should think about, wait
a minute, maybe it's, maybe I
can just go sort nails, yes.
The definition of use is where
there's really the linchpin is
how you define how figuring like
being open to different, to being
surprised by what is actually of use.
Yeah, exactly.
My one last thought on this subject is
this is something that I also speaking
of my unhappy grad school academic period
super resonated for me then because
teaching was the one time when I was
a graduate student where I actually
felt useful because when I Was doing
my own research as a graduate student.
I was like, this is I'm
this is not helping anyone.
I'm not doing anything And then
I would go to the classroom
and I'd be like, Oh, great.
These people want to learn.
I'm helping them learn.
Amazing.
That was a lesson for me in the
importance of at least feeling useful.
Yeah.
That has always stuck with me.
And you think you have
the right definition?
Of usefulness.
That is still definitely a very ego full.
Like I got to stand in front
of the class and expound about
my understanding of statistics.
So no, I'm not saying that's
like the be all end all, but it
was, it just taught me about it's
important to me that I feel useful.
And I think over time I can maybe expand
the boundaries of what that means.
If I don't believe that I'm
being useful, things get hard.
Okay.
The very last feeding
the ego a bit is okay.
It's the lesson.
Yes.
Yeah.
Or yes, ideally you just recognize
that's what you're doing.
And you can over time.
Yeah.
Grow away from that.
Hopefully a little bit.
Oh yeah.
Yeah.
But totally denying that is
also totally it doesn't work.
Yes.
You can't just, you
can't just shut it off.
All right, Tom, let's do this.
Let's finish our new year's resolution.
Yes.
Yes.
We're doing it.
The last entry.
Entry number 75 of book 7.
Nature willed the creation of the world.
Either all that exists follows logically,
or even those things to which the
world's intelligence most directs its
will are completely random, a source of
serenity in more situations than one.
Yeah.
Great.
Yes.
Yes.
Perfect way to send us off here.
And after this, Marcus decided
to put his pen down and after
75 entries in chapter seven.
Yes.
He was like, okay, that's
the end of a chapter.
That concludes my thoughts.
Yeah.
Okay.
So nature willed the
creation of the world.
All right.
Sounds good.
Yes.
Either all that exists follows logically.
We live in a nice, logical, ordered world.
Or, the world tried really hard, nature
tried really hard to organize everything,
and yet despite all its best efforts,
everything is just a garbled mess.
Okay.
And so either, things are pretty good,
because the whole world follows, exists.
Some rule.
Yeah.
Yeah.
There's logic to it all.
Or, even nature itself couldn't
organize this garbage good luck to ya.
Yeah, don't feel bad because no
one can really make sense of this.
Yeah, it's interesting.
Yeah.
And then his last sentence
is the key, which is a source
of serenity in either case.
Yes, exactly.
So he's using this sort of
razor or whatever as like a.
Either way, don't feel bad.
It reminds me of a little entry in the
Socrates Express book I was reading
where Eric Weiner, the author, is
describing Stoicism and he describes
it interestingly to me as this very
positive, optimistic philosophy.
Because his, it he says that the Stoics
kind of see the world as Hey, it's all,
we're living in the best possible world.
It was logically put together.
It's not even just that the glass,
glass half full versus glass half empty.
It's it's a miracle that there's
even a glass is the attitude of
the stoics and isn't that amazing?
Which is interesting.
It's not a way I had thought about
stoicism before, but this is reminding
me of that a little bit where he's
saying he's not quite saying that he's
offering both a sort of glass half full
and a glass half empty a little bit here.
But in either case, he's saying, but
we should even if the glass is half
full or if it's half empty, We should
still be pretty pleased with it either
way because there's nothing we could
have done to change the glass Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That second concept is meaningful, right?
If the world, if it is all
completely random, then great.
You're good.
Serenity.
That's just how it is.
What are you going to do?
Yeah.
I agree.
I think that's an important
part of the thinking here.
Yeah.
And then if it's all preordained and
logical, then what are you going to do?
You're doing great.
You're in the best possible.
Yeah.
Things are good.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It is extremely, it is
sickeningly positive.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It really is.
Yes.
That is actually, I think it's
one of, looping back to our very
first episode where I was a little.
Bearish on, on stoicism in general.
I think I had seen it as a very negative
philosophy that life is about enduring
whatever with a stiff upper lip.
And I it's maybe been the biggest pleasant
surprise for me of the whole thing is
that it turns out to be a much more
optimistic philosophy than I had maybe.
Yeah, I like it.
This is a good one.
This is actually, I can see
why he ended the chapter here.
Yeah, I agree It's it is the it's a
the sort of big picture thematic stuff
exactly has been going on the whole time
Yeah, it's like By the way, the world
is either preordained or completely
random, and either way is great.
Yeah, yep, that's his attitude, and
yeah, he spent a long time explaining
other related thoughts, but I'm
pretty persuaded by it right now.
Yeah, nice.
Congratulations, Tom.
Yes, woohoo, we did it.
We did it.
I think we will save book 8 for a
future episode, but we can, for now
Celebrate our triumph over book seven,
which took us what a dozen episodes
or something to get through probably.
But I've really enjoyed it.
I am excited about the
our next challenge here.
Only six more books to go or whatever.
Five, five more books.
The journey.
It's the journey.
It is the journey.
Yes, exactly.
I like that.
It's extending out before us.
Me too.
All right.
Bye bye.
All right.
Bye Tom.
Real quick.
Yeah.
I think our audio quote, or I'm
going to pause the recording.