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This podcast offers business solutions to help listeners develop and implement action plans for lean process improvement and implement continuous improvement projects, cost reductions, product quality enhancements, and process effectiveness improvement. Listeners come from many industries in both manufacturing and office applications.
Catherine McDonald 0:04
When did you get into this whole understanding of positive leadership and learning of it and teaching of it, and what sort of impact have you seen for leaders who adopt
Wendy Sellers 0:14
this approach? I think I just kind of fell into it naturally, because unfortunately at some organization, there was not any leadership, and if there was, it was let negative leadership, right? You know, I think, like the positive leadership and the continuous improvement that we just mentioned, they fit together because learning and transparency and trust are so important. That's where it's where people feel safe and where they're going to thrive, it's also where they're going to say, Hey, I made a mistake, and I'm going to tell you instead of burying it, because you're a positive leader, and I know I feel safe With you G'day,
Andy Olrich 1:01
everyone. And welcome to this episode of the lean solutions Podcast. I'm Andy Ulrich, and I'm joined by my wonderful co host, Catherine McDonald. How you going?
Catherine McDonald 1:09
Catherine, Hey Andy, I'm going good. How are you I'm
Andy Olrich 1:13
going terrific. It's a wonderful morning down here in Australia. How's things over in Ireland looking?
Catherine McDonald 1:18
Yeah, not too bad. It's actually lovely. It's that kind of cold Frost has just hit in and it's, as my mom used to say, getting rid of all the bugs. It's just lovely. It's very fresh, sensational.
Andy Olrich 1:30
Well, we are across the globe today. We've got a fantastic, fantastic guest, excuse me, coming from the United States. Our topic today, it's, it's such an important topic, and we talk about leadership a lot, and this one is about positive leadership. And when we're talking about a continuous improvement culture, it is absolutely foundational. So our topic today is positive leadership, foundation of continuous improvement. We've got an amazing guest, Catherine. I'll let you do the bio, so I'll throw it over to you.
Catherine McDonald 1:58
Yes, I would love to. So our guest today is Wendy seller. Wendy is the HR lady. What a great name. She is a teacher of reality and practicality. She is an author, a speaker and a HR consultant. Wendy knows human resources and management. She has been guiding companies from five to 5000 employees for 30 years now. So she knows her stuff. She has two masters in HR and healthcare admin and an SPHR and SHRM SCP certifications, and even taught the SHRM prep course. She is an author of two management books, which we are going to be touching on today, and she is a keynote speaker. So welcome to the show, Wendy.
Wendy Sellers 2:44
Thank you. Thanks so much for having me. Hi everybody.
Catherine McDonald 2:47
And Wendy, today, we are going to be talking all about positive leadership. Now I'm just going to jump right in positive leadership. Can you tell us a little bit about what is? Because I assume we're going to hear that term a little bit talk to me and tell me, why is it different to some other terms we hear, like popular terms, like servant leadership and transformational leadership. So what's positive leadership? And then, how does that link to continuous improvement? And why is it so important? That's a bit of a
Wendy Sellers 3:14
mouthful, but there you go. Sure, sure. You know, in my opinion, positive leadership, it focuses on people's strengths, as well as overall optimism in the workplace, and it creates psychological safety. How it connects, you know, to continuous improvement, which, heck, isn't that what we're all after? It really focuses on ongoing learning and even a little bit of experimentation, depending on what industry you're in, and raising standards over time. So that's my opinion of positive leadership and continuous improvement. Excellent.
Catherine McDonald 3:48
Okay, very good. And so Wendy, when did you get into this whole understanding of positive leadership and learning of it and teaching of it, and what sort of impact have you seen for leaders who adopt this approach.
Wendy Sellers 4:02
I think I just kind of fell into it naturally, because at unfortunately, at some organization, there was not any leadership, and if there was, it was let negative leadership, right? You know, do as I say, not as I do. You know, putting people in the corner instead of going ahead and helping them rise to the next level, I think, like the positive leadership and the continuous improvement that we just mentioned, they fit together because learning and transparency and trust are so important, it's where, it's where people feel safe and where they're going to thrive. It's also where they're going to say, Hey, I made a mistake, and I'm going to tell you, instead of burying it, because you're a positive leader, and I know I feel safe with you. Does that make sense? Absolutely.
Andy Olrich 4:49
Yeah, safety, trust, all those things that comes through. I was going to ask you what negative leadership was, but you've yeah that because obviously, there's a there's a there's another side of that coin, which I'm sure, well. Yeah, people listening in here, I think they're immediately going, Yeah, I've worked for one of those.
Wendy Sellers 5:04
And fascinating, I think, like a lot of negative leadership is people that weren't trained on leaders, they were just put into a, I don't know how to say leadership role. I want to say a management role. And they're like, I'm the boss. Listen to me, and it turns out, like, yeah, people may listen to you, but they're talking about you behind the corner, and they're rolling their eyes, and they're also looking for a new job at the same time and trying to figure out how they could do the bare minimum and not be around you, you know? So that's negative leadership. I'm also one of those people that I don't I don't like to apply the word leadership to everybody. Just because you have a management title doesn't mean you're a leader. And it drives me crazy when I see it on org charts, that they're like, Oh, this is the leadership level. And I'm like, yeah, let me be the judge of that. Maybe that's who you want that to be, the leadership level. But that person over there has an attitude problem. That person over there just thinks they're the boss. And so, you know, I encourage the listeners to really think about when you're using the terms leaders, like, are they really leaders? Are they just in roles where they get to, you know, pull the strings and boss people around?
Andy Olrich 6:15
So true. And yeah, people come through the ranks, maybe from a technical perspective. Or, as somebody said to me, I know you're not a fan of it, Andy, but I've got to put a bulldog in that role, because I want to bust some heads this sort of talk at all like, oh, okay, well, what did you talk about? You might get minimal compliance, and they're in the departure lounge, right? So it's such a Yeah, I'm sure people's antennas are already warmed up from some of the examples you're giving Catherine, anything on that
Catherine McDonald 6:44
you have a question, though, right? So this came from LinkedIn post that I put out today. And somebody on my LinkedIn post made a point. So I was kind of talking about the things that you're talking about, positive leadership, the what leadership really is, you know, the intangibles, the work that goes on behind the scenes, the importance of connection and relationships, all these things. And somebody said, Well, what about the really famous leaders that we know? They named a few like Jeff Bezos and Steve Jobs and Jack Welch. And they said, you know, these people weren't exactly synonymous with that kind of leadership you're talking about. You know what I'm gonna ask you, but they got results right, and people respect them. And maybe you know you don't have to be, you know, a positive leader or a warm leader, or even approachable or even calm, because the you know some of these leaders we talk about working calm, they're known for their emotional outbursts. So where do you stand on that? When we know that those kinds of leaders can get results, can keep people you know can can run a successful organization. How do we then turn around and talk about positive leadership and say we need to be like that when we see the other actually working?
Wendy Sellers 7:53
Yeah, that's a very good question. I had a a lack of better word leader like that, which really honestly prompted me to go into consulting to say, I never want to have anybody work for that type of person ever again in their life. But they're rich and they're successful now, that individual person knew enough that they knew that they were a jerk, and so they built real leaders underneath them, and nobody was allowed to go directly to them unless we were talking about, like, you know, technical things. Like, you could come, say, owner of the company with could come to the technical meetings and dole out orders and everything, and then somebody else had to go and soften the feathers and all the hurt feelings and be like, Okay, so, you know, you could also do it that way too. If you're not, you don't need to be soft and, you know, fluffy to be a great leader, but you do need to be realistic. A positive leader doesn't ignore reality. They frame challenges for as opportunities for learning, and hopefully they learn to get out of the way and let somebody else manage the people. Where you're managing the ideas, maybe the finances, and then you're hiring people below them that can deal with that abruptness where the rest of the people are then, like, guarded over here.
Andy Olrich 9:08
Yeah, it's like, when I've used that term around the Bulldog, right? They said, Look, we have to turn this around if we're going to tread on some toes or whatever. I just can't let things go on like this. The thing, one of the things they did, well, like you touched on, was this leader that went in there was very strong on, yeah, levels of work, and made it very clear where everyone should be playing, and did some activities. And, yeah, if I'm doing it, why are you here? Like, those sorts of questions that ask, yeah, it's a great question.
Wendy Sellers 9:37
Yeah. The other thing, I just also wanted to say, it's about accountability, right? I mean, whether you're a great a positive leader or a negative leader, we need we need to hold ourselves accountable. We need to hold ourselves accountable for how we treat people, and we need to have high standards. I'm very big on company values, aka expected behaviors in the workforce. And I've actually write about that in my two books. And my one book actually tells you how to create a set of company values. And then I tell all of my clients I'm an HR consultant. Most of my clients that I am consulting for, they're too small to have HR or it's a it's a big project that they need external help with. But I'm like, listen, we need to make sure that we have clearly outlined expectations of people's values or behaviors, I should say, in the workforce. And they're usually also on that sign when you walk into the lobby, where there's the mission, the vision and the values, but then we're like putting that out there for the customers, and we forget to hold employees accountable for it. So I even go a step further with all of my anybody who listens. So anybody who's listening today is I really, really encourage you to put your company values, aka expected behaviors, in the workplace, put them in the job descriptions, and then you can ask about them in interviews. You can talk about them in feedback sessions. You can talk about them in reviews, because nine out of 10 times when my phone rings all day, every day, it's not because things are going well or I'm stumped. Somebody's not doing well on performance. They're like, Hey, Wendy, somebody's acting a fool, and I don't know what to do. And I'm like, let's look at the company values. That's part of the expectations in the workplace. And if they're not behaving the way you need them to you need to hold them accountable, up to and including walking them out the door.
Andy Olrich 11:26
Yeah, yeah. And you do see that it's great to see that company I worked for before I went independent, was yeah, the values were always on the advertisements, and actually part of the annual performance reviews was measured against demonstrating the values or and so just how we measure that fair and transparent as well, that it's it brings into an interesting space, because it's like, well, it's the values there. I think you live in the values. Or actually, we've got a measure that we can wrap our arms around and go, actually, well, it is that we are. We've got a scoring system. We can then get the leaders to look at that, and everyone's getting a fair and transparent assessment against the values. It's such an important piece, yeah, right through to, like you said, if they're just not living the values, it gives you that opportunity to maybe move them on if they're not the right fit. And it's Yeah.
Wendy Sellers 12:19
And the thing is, like, you know, when we have people who voluntarily leave the organization, you know, we should be asking them why they're leaving, and you'll find out sometimes more, more than than most times, they're leaving because one of their co workers is a jerk, and it's because the the powers that be didn't hold those co workers accountable for, you know, the company values, respect, professionalism, transparency, you know, treating others kindly. It shouldn't just be something that's on the wall, because eventually it's going, people are going to find out, and you're going to either have people that stay and act like that. They might just stay and deal with that, but they're going to start quietly quitting. And then it's that, you know, we have this thing called the internet now that information gets all over the place. So candidates do their research now they find out on one of those secret websites where there's all reviews about the company, that you're allowed to be a jerk there they're not going to apply because they don't. The younger generations are like, nope, not handling this at all. And I applaud them for that.
Andy Olrich 13:21
Yeah, well, actually, not secret websites. We've got quite a large, it's a large employment or job advertising, whatever the recruitment website, and each of the companies has down the bottom reviews, and people can, yeah, go for it. So and then some people will accept less money, obviously, to work somewhere where they feel respected, or they're going somewhere, as opposed to, well, the money's great, but I've heard about that one. I'm never I'm not. That's why they got to pay that much, right? So that's, that's great.
Catherine McDonald 13:51
I think you make really good points. And it's almost like I'm looking at that from a systems lens, I suppose, because it's very okay. So most companies probably don't do exit interviews to begin with. They probably don't ask the right questions when people leave, maybe because they don't want to hear the answers, but maybe because, again, it's systems issued. They're not set up that way to have those interviews and to document that information, to share that information. But then it can go deeper, even if they are set up to get the information. And let's say somebody says, Well, I left because I didn't like my co workers. I'm not getting on with people. That's still a systems issue, that's still the organization not seeing what's going on, and not allowing, I suppose, or allowing these behaviors and and behaviors that are not in line with values to exist. Is that, am I on the right page here, in terms of like seeing the gaps in organizations and bringing it right back to ourselves as a senior leadership team and what we need to do differently?
Wendy Sellers 14:48
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, and then you could take it even a step further. I know the three of us are in three different countries, but we all have employment laws, right? And it's like if we are not treating our employees risk. Actually, it could turn into a discrimination claim too, or at least, you know, an accusation. And whether it's right, wrong or indifferent, it's going to go all over the internet, and it's going to hurt our reviews, which hurts our recruiting, which is so, so expensive right now. And then it's also going to, you know, get other people in the company to go, huh? Why did that person just leave? Let me do some digging and find out, and then they're going to start quiet quitting, because you have negative leaders, or you may have one negative leader, but nobody's doing a darn thing about it, right? And the employees know, they talk, they know,
Andy Olrich 15:36
yeah, what did the standard you walk by? Is the standard you accept, and it's, it's so yeah, and we're talking about people here, and yeah, but you said they're around the quiet quitting. And yeah, if it's tolerated, those behaviors are tolerated. Or you've got someone, look, I know that. Then they're a bit rough around the edges, but oh gee, they know their stuff, and we'll just keep them around. People do lose hope, and there's nothing more frustrating. I was in a leadership role, and there was a person in another team that was getting managed out of the business that was quite a toxic employee, and however, it was all fluff and noise, and it wasn't clear they couldn't when they made them not part of the organization anymore. They actually went in and won an unfair dismissal case, and they had to reinstate them and backpay them. And everyone was just shaking their heads, going, Oh, well, if they can get away with that, I'm out of here. That was a real one where everyone just went because the measures, the process, the system that Catherine talked about, it wasn't there. It was just kind of like, well, you just don't like me. That's why you're getting rid of me. You gotta buy I'm smarter than you, and you hate me, and everyone's against me, this type of stuff. It would just they got, they won, and it was really unfortunate for everyone else.
Wendy Sellers 16:52
It is. And that's where, that's where I said, you know, it's been probably a decade I've been saying this. I'm like, we need to have our behavioral expectations in the job description, you know? So you have the essential duties, the non essential duties here in the US for ADA purposes, and then the knowledge, skills and abilities, you know, what degrees, all of that you want them to have. But then I add to all my job descriptions at the end, these are expected behaviors, and by the way, they're the company values that we brag about in the lobby and in the break room and all of that stuff in the US there is the stats are that majority of people leave their jobs because of a bad manager, not because of pay, not because of benefits. Seven out of us, seven out of 10 US workers would quit over a bad manager, even if they had great compensation. And so this comes back down to the positive leadership. And you know, making sure that if you're calling people leaders, regardless of what part of the org chart they are on, that they really should be leaders. You don't need to be a manager to be a leader, but you should be a leader to be a manager.
Catherine McDonald 18:01
So do you think, from in my experience, most managers want to be good leaders, most? Oh, there's a few that flip through that probably should never have and should never maybe be leaders, but let's not talk about them, because I think the people listening to this podcast want to learn. They want to be positive leaders, and they want to shape positive organizations, and, you know, healthy employees and grow people and all those things, but so much gets in the way of that. So and, yeah, so What? What? What's the advice Wendy, where do people go when they want to be that kind of leader? It's just not working out that way.
Wendy Sellers 18:42
I think many people struggle. Many managers slash leaders struggle with that, that they think they have to choose between being nice and holding people accountable. You know, you can hold people accountable with encouragement. You don't have to be a jerk about it. If you hired the wrong person. It's on us anyways, and we should now get the right person in the role, or quickly get them into a learning and development program so that they can be the right person for the job. But many managers, they struggle with that. They say, well, am I supposed to be nice? The company values say, I'm supposed to be nice. It's like, well, that's not what it means. It means you could be respectfully holding somebody accountable, you know, but we should all have high standards and and a lot of support as well. And then we should also be able to say, You know what, this person needs some training and development. I'm going to get it to them now, not six months from now, and then be mad at them during the whole six months. And so it's not just about punishment, and that's the other thing managers struggle with. They think accountability is just punishment. And it's like, no, it's saying, here's the job at hand, here's the skills that you have. Maybe you meet 80% of the skills, and we're going to help you get the next 20% and we're going to do that, you know, on a really quick basis, you know, an efficient basis, and then following through. That, and when you have to give people the employee who's screwing up, when you have to give them feedback, you can do it respectfully and professionally. You don't have to be a pushover, but you can still be positive and encouraging and say, Hey, I know we're going to get through this by the way. I dealt with this myself too, and I didn't realize that this is the way you needed to change people's minds. And so I like to share a lot of stories when I did have a team and corporate HR where I say, Hey, let me explain a story where I screwed up royally, and then what I learned from it. Because we're human. We all make mistakes, we royally screw up, and that's how we learn. And so why do we pretend that we don't? You know, make mistakes. Mistakes are necessary. I have a whole chapter in my book dedicated to that great, great I think
Catherine McDonald 20:51
that should be on but letters on a, on a, on a black whiteboard, training till my age. Accountability is not, is not a bad word, right? It is not this negative connotation, and it is a problem for so many managers, really, who have that mindset, that those accountability conversations are somewhat a negative like, it's part of my job, but it's the worst part of my job. I think we have to change that, you know, we really do. Yeah, so your book sounds like it's, it goes down that road. It talks about, you know, leadership, what it is. Tell us a little bit more about what's in and tell us sorry. Tell us the name of your book and
Wendy Sellers 21:34
tell us my, yeah, my first book is called, suck it up buttercup. Be a leader. People will follow. And, you know, I talk about that Leadership isn't for the week, and mistakes are necessary. But I really even focus in a lot about personality styles and that personalities matter. Because when I first did I'm sure you're familiar with disc, which is a derivative of Myers Briggs, which I absolutely love. And I actually I sell that as well. When I first did my first DISC profile, I was like, Oh, I am the problem. It's me because I am off the charts. D like, dominant, direct. And I just thought bossy was the way you get things done. And it was, but it wasn't that they wanted to do it. They just wanted to get away from me. So the understanding about personality styles changed my entire life, and I I really encourage everybody, no matter what assessment you use Myers, bris, dis there's a ton of them, Strength Finders, to just learn about yourself and then learn about the other people in your life, including people at home, so that you can change your communication style just for 15 minutes so that you can get through the project together. And you know, in some cases, get them to do what you want them to do, but you have to change your communication, your tone, and don't forget about your face and your body language too. It helps a little bit that many, much of our work is remote, so you're not always seeing somebody in person, but when we are on a zoom or something like that, you need to make sure you're like, Okay, I'm not rolling my eyes or holding my body in a certain way. My second book talks about, I'm dealing with jerks at work, and I go into personality traits, you know, extrovert, introvert and divert there. And how you again, need to adjust your purse, your communication style to the other person. It's not about you. If you're trying to get somebody to do something for you at home or in the workplace, you need to talk to them in a manner that they understand. So, you know, communication, it's not just words. It's so, so important. And so, you know, my, one of my final chapters in suck it up buttercup. Is about is I bluntly say shut up and listen. You know you need to shut up, let somebody else talk. And don't be sitting there just waiting for them to Oh, are they done yet? Are they done yet? No, actually listen and then maybe even recap that so that you know you're on the same page and they're going to go, okay, my manager actually understands what the heck I'm talking about, or they don't. And maybe we need a third person interpreter to figure this out.
Andy Olrich 24:08
Wendy pragmatic to the point All right, it's it is because we're so busy and there's so much noise. Language warning here, I'll say it. So Wendy's second book is called the asshole whisperer, right? So maybe people are already thinking of that leader that would fit into that category. And here, how do we communicate or even get them to see, you know, this is all of this. This what we're talking about today, and how is about, how it ties into improvement, and that continuous improvement culture, yeah, having, having a leader that doesn't know or won't go and those sorts of things that it can absolutely scuttle any sort of momentum or great ideas that are happening in the organization. So I, you know, I will say, I love that title.
Wendy Sellers 24:47
Thank you very, very direct and short. They're short too, and I do have an audio version as well. But you know, my in my second book, it does talk about, I've given a lot of true stories about crappy leadership. Jerks at work and how to deal with it. And I even have a chapter in there called the other F word, giving feedback up and down the chain. So I encourage you to check that out and and really just grabbing that mirror and say, you know, am I part of the problem? And how can I be part of the solution? Sometimes we just need to move out of the way if we are not willing to, like we mentioned the beginning of today's podcast, if we have somebody at the top of the food chain, the org chart, and they're kind of a jerk, and they're like, I don't care. I own the place, you know what? Just give them feedback. Usually talk about it in revenue terms, right? Like, hey, four people quit. We did an exit interview, and they said it was it was because of you. Guess how much money they cost us, and guess what? Also they took clients with them too, or clients won't work with us because of you. Oh, okay, now you're hitting my pocketbook. Now I will listen to you. So sometimes we just have to spin things around for those jerks to say, you know, either you're about to get fired or you're the owner of the company, people keep quitting, and it's costing you, personally money, and you need to maybe Zip it, or just stay in your office over there and we'll handle things from over here.
Andy Olrich 26:13
Yeah, they're firing their firing their leader and continuous improvement, yeah, it's really not about chain revolution, right? It's really about what is the gap, and then how do we close that gap to get to where the target condition we want to be? And I think we just going back a couple of steps into we talked about that accountability not being a bad word. I think it gives you an opportunity. When you're talking about the skills and that 20% or whatever, it's like, hey, all this stuff is exactly what we want. So we're going to give you some kudos as part of this discussion. All of this is unreal, but we just need this little bit here so that people it's not just a conversation about the things you're not doing as well. So I really, I really find that that's, it's a great way to have a positive spin on accountability. For me, is just doing what you say or what you you've signed up for. Yeah, I just wanted to throw that in how people can say, Look, this is great. However, it's this little bit here we're trying to close. And that's, that's continuous improvement, right? Instead of not start everything again, you've done one thing wrong. We need to start over. That can
Wendy Sellers 27:14
be, yeah, and, you know, like a true leader's mindset becomes the team's mindset, you know, it really does. And so, you know, emotional continue. Emotions are contagious and they're real. And so sometimes we as leaders, if we're having a crappy day, we need to fake it till we make it and we need to put that smile on our face and and, or just maybe not go into the office that day, because we're going to affect the way everybody offer it operates. And you know, like, if a leader shows fear, other people start showing fear. If a leader starts blaming people, other people start blaming people. And then if, but on the opposite side, since we're talking about positive leadership, if a leader does show optimism and calmness and curiosity, then other people say, okay, it's okay for me to act that way. So we, you know, in the workplace, our employees, they follow your lead. That's why you're supposed to be a leader. And if you're leading them to greatness, they'll go with you. If you're leading them to negativity and blame and, you know, drama, they're going to go that that direction too, and then we're all going to fail.
Catherine McDonald 28:23
Yeah, yeah. And so I like what you did there, Andy, in terms of, so bringing back in continuous improvement, which is, you know, really, really important for an organization. But then you tied that into what Wendy's talking about in terms of, well, if we want organizations to improve, we need people to develop them with the right skills to help everyone else to develop, right? So your whole point about positive leadership and how you do that, Wendy, I loved what you said at the beginning about making it clear in it to begin with, in terms of values and behaviors, because if we don't do that, we cannot have accountability conversations, right? Right?
Wendy Sellers 28:56
You didn't tell me I had to act that way. So now you're going to hold me accountable for it. And you know, in some cases, you're going to have to teach them. We can't expect everybody to know these skills if they didn't have any experience in a company like that before. So there's going to be many circumstances that we have to teach them. I would say, at a minimum, for any company, I don't care where you're located, if you have five employees or 5000 employees, we should be doing during, you know, new hire onboarding, which, by the way, shouldn't just be one day, and needs to be longer than one day. We should be making sure that we make it very clear that our company values are very important to us, and we're going to teach you what that means. But I even, like I mentioned already, I back that up into the interview. So when they're in the interview, they know I'm asking you questions about these values and these expected behaviors, and if the candidate doesn't like it, then they can piece out, because now they know, if you're taking this time during the interview to ask me, I'm going to be held accountable for this, maybe I don't want to work in that company, and that's okay. I'd rather waste the time then. Time during the interview, then, you know, having to go through the process of hiring somebody.
Catherine McDonald 30:05
And I think that is a perfect last word, yeah.
Andy Olrich 30:10
I just think it's yeah, be clear up front. This is the expectation. This is how we do it. Around here, we talk about Toyota a lot, right? It's not the tools that make them successful and continue to be that that example that people point to, it's the culture and the leadership interactions, the coaching and and support and that positive leadership. But there's discipline and there's there's a line right? But it's made extremely clear, explicitly clear right up front, from all the things that I've seen and read about it. So I think, yeah, for me, that that clarity around what leadership is, the values of the way we'll behave, and you know what? We'll measure it here, and that's how we'll hold you to account, instead of a finger in the air, or how I'm feeling today, type discussion, I think, yeah, and yeah, I just really that's what's resonating for me. And we could talk about this so much. But if we Wendy, if people want to say your two books, you got suck it up buttercup and the asshole whisperer. So we'll post links to that in the show notes, also your LinkedIn and things. But if people really want to get in touch with you and hear a lot more about what you've got to do here. What's the best way for them to do that? Sure.
Wendy Sellers 31:22
I mean, LinkedIn is definitely a main source. I am a LinkedIn junkie, and so I'm on there all the time. Or you can go to my website, the HR lady com, I do have a ton of freebies on there. You go to my Downloads page, and it sends you to a Google Drive with a scorecard that I use to create job descriptions and use that in for interviews and feedback, and there's a bunch of other things there too. And if you're interested in my book, you can get the PDF version or on my website, or I'm also on Amazon under the HR lady, so you can get it in print English or Spanish, or then in audio, English. Awesome.
Andy Olrich 32:03
The HR lady.com that would be a sought after. It would be worth something in itself. Thank you so much. Catherine, I'll throw to you for final words, etc, yeah, that just that.
Catherine McDonald 32:16
Was a great conversation. I love these topics. I always love these topics on leadership. I just think so many people will benefit from from listening to and really thinking about and understanding what you've said here today, Wendy, it's a topic that I think is really, really important for every organization and every leader. So thank
Wendy Sellers 32:33
you. Thanks for having me. All right.
Andy Olrich 32:36
All right. Thanks everyone for tuning in wherever you are and whatever you're tuning in on, and we look forward to catching up with you next time. Thanks. Wendy, thanks. Catherine, see you next time.