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One of the most common revenue challenges in B2B companies is optimizing an integrated sales and marketing revenue engine.
In this episode of the Revenue Engine Podcast, Zee Jeremic, the CEO at MASS Engines, shares why organizations need to have an aligned and integrated sales and marketing structure to optimize the revenue process and power the revenue engine!
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Connect with Zee https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeremicz/
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Each week, Revenue Operations expert Rosalyn Santa Elena shines the spotlight on founders, CEO's and Revenue Leaders from hyper-growth companies and dives deep into the strategies they implement to drive growth and share their learnings through the process.
Rosalyn brings you the most inspirational stories from revenue generators, innovators and disruptors, as well as Revenue Leaders in sales, marketing, and, of course, operations.
Let's unpack everything that optimizes and powers the revenue engine with this brand-new podcast from Growth Forum https://www.growthforum.io
Welcome to the Revenue Engine Podcast.
I'm your host, Rosalyn Santa Elena,
and I am thrilled to bring you the
most inspirational stories from
revenue generators, innovators and
disruptors, revenue leaders in sales, in
marketing, and of course in operations.
Together we will unpack everything
that optimiZeees and powers the
revenue engine growth farm production.
Are you ready?
Let's get to it.
One of the most common revenue
challenges in B2B companies is
building an optimizing an integrated
sales and marketing revenue engine.
But with all of this buzz around
the need for better alignment and
synergies, is it really that critical?
What are the benefits?
And how do you even get started?
In this episode of the Revenue Engine
Podcast, Zee Jeremic, the C E O at Mass
Engines shares why organizations need to
have an aligned and fully integrated sales
and marketing structure, how this helps
optimize the overall revenue process.
And he also gives insightful guidance
on how to actually get started.
So please take a listen and learn
how to power the revenue engine.
Super excited to be here
today with Zee Jeremic.
The c e O at Mass Engines At Mass Engines
is a company focused on building best
in class integrated sales and marketing
systems that really help B2B companies.
Drive revenue growth.
So welcome, Zee and thank
you so much for joining me.
I am so excited to just learn more about
your journey and really learn from you.
Thank you, Rosalyn.
Pleasure to be here.
Yeah.
Well, let's talk, let's you know,
just dive right in and let's talk
a little bit about your backstory.
You know, your career journey prior.
, I guess, to mass engines.
Um, you've had just incredibly
broad experience in consulting.
I saw you also have experience
in product and in engineering.
Um, so maybe can you share
more about your backstory?
Sure, sure.
I'm happy to share.
So, I mean, I, I started in
technology because I've, I've,
I'm endlessly fascinated with how.
Technology has continually evolved,
uh, not just in the last 20, 30
years, but certainly over, over
the last few hundred years, if not
more, to enhance our everyday lives.
And so I, I started technology,
um, but there was a part of me that
was always interested in exploring,
again, how do we connect te.
To solving actual real problems.
Um, and, um, you know, I think like a
lot of folks who studied technology, uh,
yeah, I mean, I was driven individual end
up, you know, end up in Silicon Valley.
Um, spent about seven years there.
Um, and fantastic experience.
I mean, professionally, you, you
really, you know, definitely the
best place to be on Earth, . Um, So,
so yeah, I mean I think I certainly
had, and I mean I think I spent about
six months as a software engineer.
I think that's how long I lasted.
Cause the thing, what I realized is that I
like to solve problems, but coding itself
as a full-time job was a little like, I
liked working with people and you know,
and it just was a little too limiting.
So, needless to say, as a, an engineer
who like working with people, end
up getting into technical sales.
Sales kind of were like,
he, that's amazing.
That's a rare breed.
Let's pull him in.
So appears in sales and it was
interesting because I think in some
ways it set the foundation for, for my
consulting experience, because again,
really in, in, in its ideal forum,
technical sales is about consulting.
It's about understanding the challenge.
that, um, any particular prospect is
encountering and then being able to
connect the products that, you know, your
company is offering with those challenges.
Um, mm-hmm.
, obviously there can be a little bit of
conflict of interest sometimes, which
is why I actually have found consulting
a lot more interesting because there
is no, um, hidden agenda, right?
There is, uh, the, the, the array of
tools that you can use, uh, is much.
, right?
And it can be tools, it
can be methodologies,
business process, et cetera.
Whatever's actually going
to solve the problem.
So, To speed up.
I mean, again, uh, I think that
it was, long story short, um,
like you mentioned, I, I kind of
had a, I had a, an interesting
path, but I think I eventually, I
stumbled onto enterprise software.
I spent my, my time in Silicon
Valley was really an embedded
systems, um, a fascinating area.
Learned a lot, but really for me, where
I got really lit up is when I, when I
got exposed to enterprise software and
all of a sudden things really clicked.
Cause all of a sudden, here's a
perfect example of how technology
is being utilized by companies.
To enhance their
processes, improve results.
And this happened at the same time
where marketing and sales automation,
right, systems like Eloqua, Marketo,
salesforce.com were flirt, like just
starting to really kind of grow.
And I was hooked.
I was sold because what was fascinating
about, you know, we're not talking, we
weren't necessarily talking about some
old school systems that were there.
Accounting purposes, right?
We were talking about systems that
were in many ways aligning with how
business was evolving and how people,
how the changing nature of how people
were buying because of this explosion of
information that hap internet ushered in.
Yeah.
So, yeah, I was hooked.
And this, you know, here we are 15
years later and I've learned a lot.
Um, and I, I'd like to say
it's, um, been able to help a
number of companies and I think.
. Um, I feel like the, you know, the
potential is huge cuz I've learned so
much that I've learned what to do and what
not to do to really get to the core of.
How, how you actually drive results.
So, yeah, bummed.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I love that.
I love that.
You know, I, I think I kind of know
where we're going probably with this,
but you know, I think about a lot of
times, you know, many companies when I
talk to founders and CEOs are, you know,
they're created out of a need, right to.
As you mentioned, kind of solving a
problem or you know, sometimes there's
some type of aha moment, right.
That leads to this idea for company.
It sounds like it's been just sort of a
natural progression for you, just kind
of in your career and kind of what you
gravitate towards, really enjoy doing.
But I mean, I guess was, you know,
how did the idea, I guess, come
about for mass engines and maybe
what was your original vision?
I mean, you've been in this
space for over 10 years, right?
And so maybe how has that changed 15.
Yeah, a long.
I think what's interesting is that,
um, I mean, honestly, like again, even
if you, even the way, you know, you
kind of describe our company, right?
And what we do.
It really, when you look at, you know,
best in class sales and marketing
systems, we, from the start, the idea
was I wanted to build a revenue engine.
Yeah.
And it's interesting because, you know,
like, uh, my entry into kind of the
enterprise software space was really when
I joined Eloqua as a consultant there.
Mm-hmm.
. Um, and, you know, Eloqua I feel
like was kind of one of the early.
Movers in the marketing automation space.
And in many ways, the, the, the
CTO and some of the leadership was
really visionary in terms of how they
saw the space would evolve and what
problems would be able to, to solve.
And the same year I, I started the company
was, they, they published a book and it
was very much they, what influenced me.
They published a book called The
Revenue Engine and they outlined
the vision for how this, uh, How the
technology, the marketing and sales
automation technology was going to
evolve and how it can be leveraged
to actually drive business results.
And I was sold because I was already in
the space and I was seeing, the thing
was they were writing about, um, and as a
consultant, I could see the potential if
only we could push a few steps further.
The reality though, you know, at
when I was at Eloco, you know,
ultimately any software company, yeah.
Ultimate goal is to help people
adopt your software, not.
There's only so much you can do
with helping maximize the results.
So that was really, that was it for me.
I mean, I essentially, um, for
me, the decision was very clear.
I wanted to focus on building revenue
engines and helping take, essentially,
take it to its ultimate destination,
driving real businesses, driving revenue.
And what's fascinating about him,
that was, that was the theory posted.
And you know, like, I, I
think they partially in the
book is that never before.
Were companies actually
able to drive revenue?
By improving conversions through
the funnel systematically.
Mm-hmm.
Right?
Mm-hmm.
The traditional ways of growing
revenue, Hey, you know, let's
hire some more sales reps.
Let's spend some more
money on advertising.
Let's open a new distribution channel.
That those are tradi all of a
sudden now, because of how the,
the changing nature of the buyer.
and again, how the technology was
evolving to serve them through
marketing a sales automation.
Companies were able to actually
systematic, systematically
instrument the funnel.
And I, I, the way I like to look
at is that bring the discipline
of opportunity management further
up the funnel all the way up.
And one of the reasons there's so much
discipline, opportunities management is
you can actually improve your conversion.
You can measure it, so
you can do forecasting.
If you can do that in the.
Funnel, you can forecast a lot further
out and now you can systematically
work to improve the conversions in
the different stages of the funnel,
which will ultimately change how
you convert, how much you convert
through the funnel and grow revenue.
And that's a, I think
that's a, an amazing idea.
And I've actually, you know,
that's been a part of our journey.
And what, what's amazing, it's like,
you know, any great idea, obviously you
have to believe in it to really push it.
But for me, the real.
You know, the zing comes in when
you actually see it working.
And we've seen it working
time and time again.
And to me, this is where I,
it just pumps me up even more.
It's real.
We can actually make it work
and we can drive results.
And so yeah, that's what powers me up.
That's what gets me up in the
morning and that's awesome.
Um, zings me up.
I love that.
I love that.
Um, you know, there's, Been so much,
you know, you talked about kind of
sales and marketing alignment and you
know, systems and things like that, but
I think with that, you know, there's
just been so much noise and buzz
about marketing and sales alignment.
You know, obviously how critical it
is to optimize the revenue process
and that entire customer journey.
You know, from your perspective, like
why has there been this divide, right,
between marketing and sales, and maybe
how have you seen it sort of shift over
the past, you know, maybe five, 10 years?
It's actively shifting, which I'm.
Really excited about.
Um, and I think that it has to, and
this is why the reality, I mean, you
know, again, we can go, you know,
to the beginning of time, like,
you know, humans, we've evolved
to be very defensive in nature.
We lived in a very hostile environment,
and so as a result, Defensiveness is you
generally, like, if you're safe where
you are, you don't wanna change, right?
Yeah.
Because hey, change is danger and
where we are currently is safe.
So if you, I think historically, um,
marketing and sales alignment wasn't
necessarily relevant because the team and,
and the teams could be siloed because they
actually played a different role, right?
Marketing traditionally,
again, when you look at.
Brand and awareness, right?
Mm-hmm.
establish kind of the, the how people see
the company and make them aware, but once
they're aware, , it was all, now it's
like a, and it was a pretty hard line.
Once they're aware, there's
nothing more for marketing to do.
Now it sales comes in.
So you can have these silos and they
can operate in harmony, if you will.
Yeah.
Uh, and be very effective.
However, and again, I think that what's
interesting is that what's actually, Dr,
it's, it's sometimes, you know, again,
there's, uh, direct benefits and their
side effects, the information explosion.
that kind of the, the internet
and kind of our, our connectedness
has, has, has ushered in, has
fundamentally changed how people buy.
We're in an era of informed empowered
buyer because buyers have so much access
to information and what's happening
is they're increasingly saying, well,
okay, I'm aware of your brand, but.
Why should I care?
And I don't wanna talk to your sales
rep because I know that they're,
you know, they have an incentive.
They're gonna try to sell me.
I don't wanna be sold,
I wanna be educated.
And so what's happened is that the role
of marketing has expanded and the role
of marketing and sales as a result,
there's, there's a lot of overlap and
the alignment is becoming so critical.
And so you look at five or 10 years
ago, still a pretty new idea, still
not very well understood, and a lot
of resistance, a lot of resistance.
How do I invest time into something that
I don't really understand the benefit
of, and I don't really even see where
it's going, when that's taking me away.
Especially for salespeople, it's taking
me away from dialing, from calling from
selling, and I get paid by on that.
So I think that that's been a
challenge, and I think that what's
interesting is that as, as there's.
More awareness.
Right.
I mean, I love it.
I mean, your podcast, right?
The, the Revenue Engine podcast, , is, I
feel like you're, you're popular, you're
one of the, you know, one of the, the,
the Mavericks that's really starting to
popularize the idea of what's possible.
And I think as there's more awareness,
there's more, uh, interest and to learn
and to experiment, and that's what I love.
What I'm seeing is that it's early,
still very early, but there is
more interest and more openness.
You know, what does this concept of
marketing and sales alignment mean?
And how can, how can it actually
tangibly help our company?
And I think it's still a little bit
of a, you know, like, eh, it still
seems kind of fuzzy, dusty, soft stuff.
I don't really know how it's gonna help.
But the openness brings the
interest, which is gonna, which
is gonna enable conversations,
which is gonna enable action.
And that the initial action,
this is what happens early.
Lot of risk.
Those early adopters, a lot
of risk, but big rewards.
And once they start proving
that it, there's actually real
benefit again, we've been, we've
shown this in in our engagements.
Yeah, it works.
It can generate for very little
investment, can generate amazing returns.
But once that starts being
popularized and, and.
Seen more widely, it's gonna become, all
of a sudden talking to sales and lobby is
gonna be the next hot, hot ticket item.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I love that.
Um, I love that.
And I think, you know, with that better
alignment, right, that partnership,
you know, you've touched on, you
know, how you've actually seen it
benefit, you know, organizations.
Like what are some of those
benefits that you've been seeing?
It's outstanding, right?
When you actually, when you.
Strip away.
And again, I feel like a lot of, for a
lot of folks and a number of companies,
the challenge with sales and marketing
alignment as a concept is that it just,
they don't understand what it means.
Yeah.
And so it's not tangible.
And as a result, and then even those
who are interested, when they start
engaging in conversations about it,
it, what, what can happen is that it
just seems like this is interesting,
but I don't really see how it helps.
Mm-hmm.
. So what we've actually found is that,
and again, the more conversations the
better, but really, , if you can actually
identify, um, a, uh, a, a specific place
in the funnel where marketing and sales
alignment can actually drive some tangible
benefits and don't focus so much on
marketing and sales alignment, but focus
on the steps and the tactics mm-hmm.
to, to convert that potential
into real benefit for the company.
You change the conversation, you
change the game because you're actually
demonstrating this is not just some fuzzy,
dusty concept, um, where we're all just
gonna sit around a campfire, you know, and
see kumbaya and talk about how great it
is without actually realizing any results.
Once you can actually show any
organization, any leader, that
there's actually tangible results
that the organization can realize
through marketing and sales alignment.
Now you're changing the game and
now you're getting people to listen.
So I'll give you a
perfect example of this.
The, if you look at marketing and
sales alignment, I, I almost feel like,
and again, I can kind of see, I can,
because of the amount of time I, I've
done this, the easiest place to look
at for that benefit is in a hand in
the handoff from marketing to sales.
Yeah.
Right.
Because that's the most
tangible, you know, and it's
so kind of like a relay race.
If you look at a relay race is, you know,
everyone's just, it's, and the relay race
is essentially, um, A series of runners
running and it's, it would just be people
running if it wasn't for the relay.
So if, if you, if someone, if you weren't
passing the baton, passing the baton from
one runner to the other is essentially the
opportunity that's otherwise every runner,
it's just about how fast the runners run.
It's how, how effectively can you pass
the baton that ultimately decides who.
In the same way when you look at marketing
and sales alignment, it's the passing
of the lead from marketing to sales
that has the biggest opportunity for
initial, uh, marketing and sales alignment
that can actually bring the results.
So if I look at historically, I'll
tell you over the last 10 years,
one of the, the lowest hanging fruit
when it comes to this passing the
baton is this fundamental disconnect.
. And historically marketing has done lead
generation, which is all about this person
came to our booth, this person came to
our webinar, this person brought our white
paper, this person submitted our form.
And that doesn't mean they're interested,
especially in this day and age, right?
Yeah.
However, in the old methodology,
that's a lead and I'm sending it
to sales, and what happens in the
other side, sales is inundated.
You go to a trade show, you
get 500 people stopping by
your booth to get a charge key.
Next thing you know, sales gets 500.
they're not leads.
Everybody sales certainly knows they're
not leads and they're not gonna call them.
And so you have this lack of trust that's
developed between marketing and sales.
And marketing is saying, why
don't you look at my leads?
Why don't you pick up my leads?
, we worked so hard and we spent so
much money to generate them, and
sales is sitting on the other side.
And, and, and they're both right.
But sales is sitting there
being like, your leads suck.
They're not leads, , they're names.
Yep.
You know, not everybody that
fogs a mirror is a lead.
Yeah.
So I think, and so, so right there
and then you have a very tangible
disconnect, but because there's a silo.
Disconnect is invisible.
It appears if you look at, in each
group, it's just griping in each group.
But when you zoom out and you look at
from marking a sales alignment point of
view, you start realizing that there's,
this is actually a real problem in the
business and with very little investment.
If you engage sales and say, and
say, we recognize as an organization
or as marketing whoever's running
this, we recognize that some of the
leads that we're saying are not that.
we'd like to change that.
And this is kinda like
Therapy 1 0 1, right?
Yes.
. We'd like to change that and.
We would, we would love to work
on configure the leads that we
sent to you so they actually
look like who you wanna talk to.
And then usually I ask a very simple
question, you know, it's end of your day.
Uh, I used to say it's 5:00 PM but
then a number of salespeople have
pointed out to me, we always work.
There's no five or 6:00 PM in sales.
And I'm like, okay.
Fair.
Yeah, it's end of your day.
You got three leads in
your, in your queue.
You only have time to call.
Which one do you call?
And I think that's a really good
way to focus the conversation
on what really matters.
Yeah.
And you get, you get a number of folks,
maybe it's the top performers, maybe
someone who's been there a long time, but
you get them to tell you what those are.
Then you look and you do it
very again, data, any data
analyst, it's worth their salt.
And very quickly look at your
opportunities and tell you who, mm-hmm.
what's actually, what are the
patterns of those opportu.
. Okay.
And you ma you look at the,
the matches between the two.
You go back to sales and you validate,
here's who we're gonna be sending you.
But, but here's, and here's the
catch, here's the alignment piece.
We will send you only the highest
quality leads that you told us
you want to get, but we're gonna
ask for one thing in return.
Every lead that we use, we send
you, you have to look at you.
Ha.
And you have to either disqualify.
That's totally fine.
Tell us that it sucked.
Tell us why it sucked.
So disqualify with a reason or qualify it.
You don't have to convert
it, but you just qualified.
And again, we can create a stage
called sales accepted lead.
We can click a button
that just says, okay.
I get it, or whatever else I, I approve.
And now what's happening again,
very little work is happening here,
but what's happening is that we're
developing a language of communication
between these silos and that language
is, I will send you better leads.
You're gonna tell me
if they're good or not.
And so over time, we don't have to talk
anymore because now we have signals.
We're sending signals to one another, and
we can continually improve the scoring.
based of these leads and
what we're sending you.
And you are gonna, again, you're
gonna keep looking at them.
You're, and so as long as we keep
improving the scoring, and again, I, I.
We're gonna be able over time to
drastically improve the results.
And that's what we've, you know, we had
a client win an award and it, it was
for, for us, we did this very thing.
We cut their leads.
And again, this is almost sacrilegious
to say, in any organization,
we're gonna cut your leads by 50%.
We cut their leads by 50%.
You know what happened?
They had a 10% increase in
opportunities for a very simple reason.
Sales called everyone, and
they actually had more time to
have productive conversations.
They converted more.
This is a fantastic example of the kind
of advantage you can get when you apply.
Um, Sales and marketing alignment
as part of a bigger revenue engine.
Again, instrument in your funnel,
understanding where the disconnects
are, and then systematically
improving conversions in
different points of the funnel.
Yeah, yeah.
No, you know, I, you're totally
speaking my language, Z and I'm, you
probably see me just nodding and smiling
because I've had so many conversations
around this, and you would think
when you talk to organizations that.
Everyone's doing this, of course
they're scoring their leads.
Of course they know who
they should be selling to.
They're only passing good
leads, right to sales.
But when you actually dig deep
into talking to a lot of these
organizations, they really don't,
or at least don't do it enough.
Like they don't take the time to
really dig deep into defining that.
And they also forget to re,
to continue to iterate, right.
And improve the quality . And
my dog is passionate.
Absolutely.
And let's talk about.
Why this is an, I think the key
question is why, and it's because no
one is responsible for that, right?
And again, why?
Because of the, the si, the historical
silos, no one is responsible for that.
And this is where, I mean, I think you
start looking at how marketing operations
and sales operations are evolving.
and where the role of potentially
revenue operations comes in is that
all of a sudden you are gonna have a
team that's responsible, accountable
for looking at this and owning it.
Yep.
You are taking all my
thunder , but I'm my con.
No, I'm constantly on my soapbox
about this alignment, as you know,
and so I think, you know, I love
the fact that you're, you know,
you having so much experience
working with so many organizations,
you've actually proven that value.
And I think that's having that sort of
holistic view of having somebody, you
know, taking that step back and keeping.
Keeping both, um, you know, kind
of the entire revenue process
aligned is really important.
So let's talk about, you know, I
think, you know, you have a chance
to partner with so many different
organizations, you know, including
really large enterprise companies, right?
Intel, Samsung, and I'm sure
you get to see a lot of, you
know, the good and the bad.
Right when it comes to
technology and to systems, right.
For revenue teams.
Um, so you talked a lot about sort
of this alignment and the, you know,
leads and passing the handoffs,
which is so incredibly important.
But what are some of the other things
maybe that you see organizations
doing right when it comes to, you
know, actually building out their
systems and technology and maybe
what do you see them doing wrong?
Well, see, this is what's
gonna be interesting the way
you phrased the question.
Here's my answer, might.
Somewhat unexpected.
You know what's interesting is that as,
and I'm surprised myself as a technologist
to say this, it's not the technology.
It really isn't , you know, most of
these organizations are actually pretty
good at, you know, evaluating various
types of systems that are out there.
And how they, how they could solve
some of the issues they have.
And then they're fairly decent
at rolling these systems out
within the organization where the
disconnect, I feel oftentimes happens.
And, and this is actually where it
happens more so of more often in
larger organizations, more often than
smaller, is in the, is isn't that
there's, there's often a disconnect
between why they buy the tool and
how they're actually end up using.
because, and then this is also
partially the sophistication of how,
you know technology sales have evolved
over the last 10 years is that, you
know, a lot of technology companies
are no longer selling to IT teams.
They're selling to business stakeholders.
This has kind of been the evolution of
SaaS software, and so what's happened
is that, You know, that the, the,
the sophistication of these software
companies and how they're selling has
also gone significantly more complex.
And what's happening is that
they're selling stories.
They're selling vision, they're selling
big ideas around what is possible.
Yes.
Good for them.
Right.
I mean, again, if you go back
again, why did Elcor write a
book called a Revenue Engine?
It was the same idea.
They were painting an
idea of what's possible.
if you buy their software.
Right.
So, okay, great.
And so let's say people buy
into the, because again, a lot
of these stories are very good.
They're very effective at painting
a very rosy picture about where the
world is going and what's possible now.
And this is where the disconnect
often comes in the company.
And again, no, no one's a pool.
We're generally, we're dealing on.
people who are, who are leaders in, in,
in most organizations are fairly well
educated, fairly intelligent driven folks
who want the best for their companies.
And so they, they see the potential.
They hear about the potential, not
just from the software vendor, from the
analysts, from their peers, and they're
go like, oh, this is something worthwhile.
They go, okay, great.
I'm gonna, we're gonna buy the software.
They buy the software.
And then they go, okay, great.
We're gonna roll out the software.
They roll out the.
And then after a year or two, they
start seeing, well, what happened?
We're not seeing the
results that we were, yeah.
That we were promised.
But again, the disconnect
there is that rolling out the
software is the first step.
The vision is like step number four.
Yeah.
But no one talks about, especially at the
software, companies are not talking about.
Steps 2, 3, 2, 3, and four
to actually achieve division.
Because if they talked about it, they
would have to talk about if for every
dollar you spend in technology, you
should be spending probably three to $5
on services, enablement and knowledge.
Mm-hmm.
, that will enable you to actually move
up that chain and achieve division.
So what's happened then it happens
is there's just disappointment and
then questions start being asked.
And then you start looking at, okay,
what is it gonna take first to get there?
And then you start
realizing there's actually.
it's complex.
And we may not have the staff, we may not
have the knowledge, we may not have the
capabilities to actually achieve division.
And now you get disappointment.
And now you have, and then, and then
oftentimes, and this is where I feel
like oftentimes this is kind of the,
the, the, the pivotal moment, and this
is I feel also where some companies go.
it was the wrong technology.
And they're going to, they
switch to another technology.
Yes.
And they restart the cycle.
And I feel like that's kind
of the negative feedback loop.
Uh, the other thing that happens, they go
like, well, they settle for what they got.
Mm-hmm.
rather than what they bought
originally bought because of the
realities in the organization.
Hey, I can't now allocate
all that extra funding.
I maybe I could have initially, but
now I can't allocate all that extra
funding to be able to achieve it.
So let's just settle where we are.
We have.
Problems to solve.
And I feel like that's probably the
biggest disconnect that we've see in
companies, large and small, um, around
that disconnect between the technologies
being bought and their ultimate vision
for why the technology was bought.
But Al again, what I will say, when
you look at the disconnect between
one and four, those steps mm-hmm.
, um, it's, it's, it's, it's almost never
the technology, it's the business process.
Yes.
and, and the methodologies of use of
these technologies that will actually
help you generate the results.
Right.
What I think is fascinating, I'll
just share this like what we found.
We found a fascinating academic
model of a technology adoption called
sammer, and it's an acronym and it
basically, it's an acronym for the
four stages of technology adoption.
It's absolutely fascinating to
develop in academia to actually help
schools integrate technology into the
curriculum and into into learning,
but it actually works exceedingly
well in companies, in business,
around companies adopting technology.
So it's four stages, Sam.
Substitution augmentation, um, re
uh, modification and redefinition.
Those are the four stages
of technology adoption.
That's how, those are the stages
you need to go through to go from.
Substitution, I swapped out
my old technology for the
new one to, to redefinition.
I'm achieving the vision
that this technology offers.
Mm-hmm.
And I, again, I, I'm happy to elaborate,
but I also, it'll probably, you know, it
could probably take five minutes to kind
of get in, go through the whole model.
I, I will just say, look up Samara.
It's absolutely a fascinating
model if you're interested to see.
, regardless of what technology you're
buying, what are the four steps that
pretty much every individual enterprise
needs to go through to actually realize
the full benefit of the technology?
Look at the sammer, uh,
technology adoption model.
It is absolutely fantastic.
Yeah.
Yeah, that's a great recommendation.
Definitely.
I'm gonna have to take a look at that.
But yeah, I, I tell people
that all the time as well.
They always ask me, oh,
what's the perfect tech stack?
You know, what should I be buying?
And it's not the technology
that's gonna necessarily solve
your problems, you need to.
, your business process is well defined.
You need to have your infrastructure,
you know, your data infrastructure
well, um, well defined as well.
And then the technology enables you to
optimize right, and be more efficient
and, you know, and be able to minimize
some of that, um, human touch.
But a lot of times I think people buy
the technology and to your point, they
either don't realize the full value,
they're using it for something that
wasn't the original intent or they, it's.
Kind of forces them to now look at
their business processes, right?
Because now they've gotta configure
the systems and then it delays the
ex, you know, delays the, um, ROI
on that technology because you're
spending now you're spending your
time defining what your processes
should actually look, uh, look like.
So I love that.
I love that.
Um, so let's talk a little
bit more about Tech Stack.
I mean, we talked about over the last
several years, I mean, this go to
Market Tech Stack has just exploded.
I mean, there is literally a piece of.
a piece of technology for every
single part of the funnel.
Right.
And more, um, you know, what are
you seeing, I guess, maybe in the
market when it comes to how revenue
teams are approaching technology?
We talked about this a little bit
already, but where do you see it headed?
Any predictions?
The questions?
Yeah.
Predictions are, uh, always, uh,
Much tougher, especially for, I
feel like more practical, realistic
folks like, such as myself.
I mean, I think, so let's just
quickly go through what's happened
over the last 10 years, right?
Yeah.
There's been this absolute explosion
of technology being developed,
right, for marketing and sales teams.
Mm-hmm.
. Um, and so what's interesting is
I feel like companies reacted.
Starting to look, especially
around marketing, and now you
can start, see, sales is kind
of, you know, has been moving.
I think marketing was kind
of, this explosion first
happened in MarTech, right?
Mm-hmm.
and then sales tech has been
kind of really brewing over the
last five, seven years as well.
Um, but what's happened is that
there's initially a lot of, again,
similar, similar experience.
a lot of initial excitement.
It's that, it's the, you know,
it's that Gartner curve, right?
Yes.
The hype cycle.
A lot of initial excitement companies
were buying technology left our center.
Technology's gonna, and, but
they're doing it under wrong Pretext
technology's gonna solve our problems.
Again, I'm gonna keep going
back to the same point.
It's not the technology.
It's not the technology.
The, ultimately it's, it's what you're
trying to do and what your business
process needs to be to try to do.
And then the technology just
should become an accelerator.
That's right.
Um, so, so, but if we look at
that, there was this initial.
Mania almost, where like, technology's
gonna solve all our problems.
We're gonna buy large tech tax
and build large tech tax, right?
I mean there's, there's literally a
conference, an award around, you know,
I think what stackies, or I forget,
like around what your tech tax should
look like and for good reason, right.
companies have bought like 5, 10,
15, 20 different solutions mm-hmm.
, and they're all trying to figure out
what's the right combination, right?
What are the right solutions?
And then there's a, and then once
the media passed a little bit and you
started throwing the, the throw of a
disillusionment, you start looking,
okay, what are we really, we're
spending a lot of money on this tech.
What is it really producing
in terms of results?
And again, because of what we just
talked about that you just, you
know, you, you oftentimes, you didn't
actually get to the ultimate, that
redefinition stage of how you're
actually achieving the vision of what's.
The results are not, you know, I'll
say abysmal in a lot of cases are
a really non quantifiable result.
So now there's a lot of pressure.
All of a sudden, why are, can
we redirect this budget and
can we spend it more wisely?
And I think that there's been a little
bit of the last few years, there's been
a little bit of that kind of sobering.
to maybe we don't need a technology
for every little problem that we have.
Let's actually start going back to
looking at what's the core, what
do we really need at the core?
And then you start looking.
And I would argue if, if you're trying
to manage your funnel, you really
need, there's really three main pieces.
I mean, CMS is a no-brainer, right?
Like, I mean that you need a cms.
I think that's kind of a understood
marketing automation has been
kind of the rapid adoptions,
I think very well understood.
You need a marketing automation.
if you're, if you're a B2B company
involved in a considered purchase
lifecycle, and you need, I would argue
not the CRM that you're know, that our,
our our, uh, our, our older colleagues
used right from the nineties, but you
need a modern sales automation platform.
and I feel like those are
your, that's the trifecta.
Those are your three core systems.
Then you, and then once you get those
really operating your, I would argue, once
your funnel is instrument, you understand
the conversions, and you actually now
start looking to optimize the results in
the conversion in any particular stage.
Now you start looking at.
Which, which point solution is,
is gonna actually help us to,
to improve the results in that
particular stage of the funnel.
So again, if we think we can
grow, uh, in, um, conversion, the
sales part of the funnel, maybe we
start looking at some sales tech.
What are the challenges right?
Is it, is it around follow up?
Is it around what we're saying?
Is it around how effective we're executing
demos is, or is it on the marketing side?
Is it how we're presenting content?
Is it how we're actually
engaging with our audience?
Is it the channels that we're
using and which kind of tools can
actually help us get in front of an
audience, uh, across more channels,
different channels, et cetera?
I think that that, and to me that's
really, and it's interesting if you
look at, you know, in MarTech Christ,
Scott Brinker's been a bit of a, you
know, I don't know if Messiah is a
strong word, but certainly, you know,
someone who's actually had a very
influential voice in helping follow
how the technology has evolved.
You know, they're starting to look
at more kind of ecosystems, right?
And so it's almost like, yeah, an
organization that's gonna develop
out of some level of agreement.
Around which tools are actually
really needed and how well they
work, which tools work well together.
And so to simplify this, this almost kind
of maddening situation around which, out
of the 10,000 do I buy, which do I need?
What's gonna help me?
. Yep.
Yeah, I agree.
And I think there's so many, as you said,
kind of, there's so many point solutions.
I think we'll continue to see a
lot more consolidation, right?
A lot of these technologies that will
meet multiple use cases and multiple
pieces of the funnel, um, yeah, we'll see
how, how our predictions, uh, pan out.
Um, you know, as a rev op leader, right?
A lot of my role is around change.
Right, especially in earlier stage
organizations, and then ob obviously
in today's environment where that
rate of change is accelerated.
Um, at mass engines, you
use an established change
management framework, right?
And this is especially critical as you
work with organizations on projects
that are, you know, oftentimes very
transformational or even if when
you're just having tweaks, right?
Kind of here and there.
Um, can you talk a little bit more about
your approach to change management and
then what have you seen Work effect.
Versus not as effectively . And I, I
think number one, what I will say, and I
love the fact that you bring this up, is,
uh, is I, I see as consistently is that
organizations, um, neglect or minimize
the importance of change management.
Yes.
In and in, and this is becoming only more
relevant as the pace of change increases.
I mean, when you look at, again, let's.
Our, you know, the
previous generation, right?
Like our, our, let's say our parents,
uh, you know, the, the, the pace of
change, you know, things might have
changed over the course of their careers.
What we're seeing now, the pace of
change has accelerated to the point
where there's like two or three cycles
of change and within each of our careers.
That's right.
And so the pace has changed.
Right.
And you've seen the same thing, right?
It's just, it's mm-hmm.
almost, it's.
becoming challenging to keep up with.
And so as a result, and we start
kind of ignoring some of it because
it is so challenging to keep up.
And again, it's almost like,
again, it's triggering that
natural kind of defense mechanism.
Like I don't know if this
change is good anymore.
Um, but again, it's hard to.
Deny and suppress something that's kind
of weird side are going through together.
Right.
The pace of technological
advancement and, and change is real.
Yeah.
So to go back to change management,
change management is, is becoming, and
I, I'm, I'm really glad to see there's
a lot more openness and interest at the
corporate level around change management.
And I think, again, this is because
there's this realization how much,
how real change is to all of us and
to, especially to organizations.
When we started seeing this and we st,
we started seeing a, you know, projects
that kind of stalled, uh, in adoption.
We would build amazing solutions
and we would roll them out.
And while we were operating it for
a company, they worked really well.
However, when we tried to kind of be
like, okay, well it's time for you to take
this over and operate yourself so you're
not constantly, you know, paying us and
we're, you know, we're doing it for you.
We need to integrate this
solution into your organiz.
Now you start getting adoption challenges.
And oftentimes what we've realized it is
because there's no change management and
oftentimes there's not the right roles.
And because the change management
was involved, we didn't identify
the right roles and the importance
of that to the organization.
And so ultimately then that.
Adoption piece falls somewhere and
the results are not nearly as, as, as
impressive as, for example, when we built
a solution, when we were running it.
So, so we started looking at, you
know, what are, you know, we started
looking at what, what methodologies
are out there who has done this before?
And we actually did find,
it's interesting, right?
It's uh, I think in kind of the
seventies, sixties, seventies, eighties,
definitely, I think seventies and.
I think as change started this
become again, start paces, start
accelerating, they start academically.
There was, um, you know,
especially around, you know,
the, um, I would say the.
The academics around business thought
started exploring this idea of change
management and how, how what kind of
frameworks, uh, can be used to facilitate
change management to improve it.
We found a few models we loved Cutter.
I mean, co you know, Carter is
just, I feel like, you know,
uh, one of the, you know, really
kind of one of those deep think.
Uh, from the era really, you know,
uh, well-known establishment.
Uh, we loved his model.
His model made so much sense.
Um, and so we've adopted his model
and again, it's, it's, it's a
seven stage, uh, model of change
management and it's very simple.
I'll just summarize, I won't go
through each stage, but I'll summarize
essentially, The whole idea is that
the first two or three stages, you are
not doing anything other than creating
consensus around the need for change
and, and getting your team, getting your
allies, getting your team on board, and
then starting to communicate the change.
That's it.
You're not doing anything other
than laying the groundwork for
change, and then you start getting
the, the rest of it is really.
Now that you've laid the groundwork,
you've got your allies, you
understand why you're doing it,
and you started communicating.
Now it's about follow through and there's
the, the, all the other steps around.
How do you actually then successfully now,
you know, take it, uh, through completion.
And again, it's a fantastic model.
We've been using it and we've found to be.
Very effective.
I would say it's a similar situation
with sales qualification models.
There's a lot of sales
qualification models out there.
I think bant is probably one of
the better knowns, but I, I'm at, I
think there's probably five or six
really well known ones out there.
And what's interesting is, and I think
there, you know, if you really kind of
push the envelope on a, and you start
pushing people on which one's the best,
anyone that knows more than two will
actually agree that it actually doesn't
matter which one you use as long.
You have your, as long as you're
consistently actually using it.
And I would say it's a similar thing
for change management, as long as
you're using some kind of a framework
that's helping brand manage the pace
of change and produce the results.
then it doesn't really matter whether it's
cos which is we adopted or another model.
Yeah, yeah.
I'm just furiously like nodding
my head because the same thing
with the sales methodologies.
People always ask, is it bant or medic
or med pick or what should I be using?
Or, you know, and, and the, the point
is it's different for every organization
and depending on your selling model and
you know, your sales motion, but once
you pick one more importantly is define
it and use it right and follow it.
I got it.
Well, so as you know, as I
think about the revenue engine,
I think about this podcast.
I always hope that others will be
able to really learn how to, you know,
accelerate revenue growth, right?
Empower that revenue engine.
So maybe from your perspective, you
know, what are the top, you know,
couple of things, maybe two or three
things that you think, you know, leaders
should really be thinking about today.
to really help drive revenue growth
and even more importantly, at this
point in our market, right, revenue
retention Ah-huh . Yes, yes, yes.
Yeah.
The cycle, right?
The cycles, um, of the economy
and the kind of the focus.
I think that's, it's a
great, it's a great point.
So I certainly have, um, biases
and certain points of view,
Um, so what I will, what I,
so here's my view is that I
think what's interesting is.
If you look at, like, marketing continues
to, to evolve at a absolute breakneck
pace, and it's for a very simple reason.
You know, the globalization has
ushered, uh, much more competition.
Um, and it's also, I feel like it's, it's
baked in the nature of marketing, right?
Is that if you know there's, there's.
Once someone starts doing something
that works, everyone starts copying it,
all of a sudden doesn't work anymore.
So the need to reinvent what
you're doing is so critical.
So I would absolutely say the focus
around marketing, in my view in this
day and age should be on modern demand
generation, continuing to like move
away from traditional kind of focus on.
Awareness and lead generation
into focusing on the buyer.
And again, remember, it's an informed
and empowered buyer out there.
They're in control.
They have access to information.
So really our focus should be to further.
, empower and, and engage with them.
Give them the information that we,
that they, that they're looking for.
Mm-hmm.
. Um, and the more so, I think that
around demand generation, the
focus will absolutely be on devel.
Developing meaningful content and
the meaningful content shouldn't
be about what our product does.
It should be about the problem that
the customer's trying to solve, the
pain that they're experiencing, the
different approaches to solving that pain.
Obviously, you know, it's understood.
You're always gonna bake a little
bit of your own perspective into when
you present the solutions, but in our
experience, The more impartial you
are, and the better your content is,
the more it will replicate itself.
Like a good idea.
It'll become more viral and,
and ultimately, if they're
consuming your content, you're
gonna be always top of mind.
Even if you're talking about competitive
approaches to solving that problem,
you're always gonna have a leg up
because they're consuming your content
and they're always gonna, ultimately,
when they're looking for solutions,
you're gonna be top of the list.
So to me, that's a no-brainer.
I think on the sales side,
this is what's interesting.
I do think a lot of the folks
needs to be in marketing.
I think sales is becoming more
difficult in some ways, right?
Because of the empowered buyer, the
informed buyer, and we're seeing
this, and I'm seeing this time more
and more, is that, you know, a lot
of times sales buyers just telling
says, I, I don't, I don't wanna talk.
Send me some info.
Yeah.
Right.
Because I, I don't want
you to influence me.
I'm not there yet.
So that, that shift is, is really, I,
I think it's starting to, Impact sales.
So it's, it's one of those things, this
is, again, we go back to why sales and
marketing alignment is so important is
because there's an element of marketing
needs, needs to do a lot more, but
they'll be able to do it a lot more
effectively if they can, if they can
leverage some of the sales skill sets
and insights and which ultimately helps
sales because if marketing can produce.
Qualified leads.
There are people who are
actually informed, ready to buy.
Now all of a sudden, sales can actually
do what they really do best, which is
build a relationship and help, help
guide the client towards the right
selection for, for them to move forward.
Um, I, I, again, and for me, I'm,
I'm, this is where I will say I'm
currently biased towards this idea.
An effective revenue engine can
help give you a new lever to grow
revenue in your organization.
And the beautiful thing about it
is you do not need more leads.
You don't, you're, it's essentially
about getting more out of what
you're getting currently, right?
Mm-hmm.
. So if you're getting a thousand leads,
and again, in most organizations,
the conversion ratio from top to
bottom to funnel is about two to 4%.
Yeah, right.
It, it's very low.
So again, just think about it.
If subdivide that funneling into, let's
say, 10 different stages across the whole
thing, if I can help improve even by
a few percentage points in a few point
in a few of these el uh, stages, and
all of a sudden I get you from getting
a 2% to, let's say three or 4% mm-hmm.
we're substantially increasing your
revenue with, without spending money
on additional ads or additional sales.
So I, I'm, I'm really biased and I
think that's a fantastic, especially
if as you enter a recession, the
message isn't really about, Hey,
you gotta spend more money on ads.
And especially as there's more.
Concern around how effective advert
like advertiser, uh, advertising
driven growth actually is.
Mm-hmm.
. Um, the idea that you can actually spend
substantially less money to actually
generate returns based on increasing the
conversions of the folks who are already
buying, who are already interested.
Uh, they're maybe just not currently.
They're falling through because maybe,
maybe they're not interacting with
your, with your con, maybe you're
not reaching out at the right time.
Right?
So, everybody knows this.
If you call someone 10, you know, five
minutes after they submit the form,
a, you're more likely to get them.
B, you're much more likely to
convert them because you're,
you're, but is that possible?
Maybe not.
Mm-hmm.
. But you know, even if you follow up
within an hour or two, it's gonna be a lot
better than following up 24 or 48 hours.
So again, it's things like that.
I really think that ultimately managing
conversions is a winning formula
regardless of the economy, but especially
in a recessionary economy where
there's less investment to go around.
So all of a sudden becomes,
how do we do more with less?
You do more with less by maximizing
the results with what you already do.
Yep.
I love that.
I love that.
Thank.
Thank you.
Well, thank you so much for joining me.
Um, but as we wrap up and before I let you
go, I always ask all my guests two things.
One, what is the one thing about you
that others might be surprised to learn?
And two, what is the one thing that you
really want everyone to know about you?
Hmm.
Sometimes it's the same thing.
I I sometimes it's the same thing,
but you know, something that others
might be surprised and something
that you really want people to know.
I think that for me, I'm, uh, I'm
very optimistic about the future.
And I think it's easy in, in, in,
and maybe it's always been like this
the way, but it's, I think in our day
and age, it's easy to be bombarded.
Like there's so much negativity
around, like all the problems
that are all around us.
And yet, yeah, when you look
at the big picture, we're.
It's never been a better time to be human.
We're more, we're safer, more
comfortable, uh, well-nourished, you
know, living the longest we've ever lived.
I think we're in such an amazing
place, uh, in our evolution and I'm.
I, I can only say reach for the
stars, and I would love, I'd love
to see where, where we can go.
And again, you can see
a little bit of that.
My passion for technology, I feel
like an evolution of our species as
a whole, um, is, is, is boundless.
I, I think there's no limits to
where we can go, and we've already
demonstrated it, how far we've come.
It's just, it's, it's about
embracing, I think a l a large
part is embracing change.
and, and change management helps
there embracing change, uh, and,
and, and, and leaning in, leaning
forward and looking into the future
and how do we, how do we do better?
Yeah, I love that.
I love that.
Thank you so much Si for joining me and
just so much incredible insights and
everything you're, you've said today
has really resonated with me and I
know it's gonna resonate with others.
Um, but super helpful and
just appreciate your time.
Thank you.
Awesome.
Thank you, Rosalyn.