The real impact of corporate governance isn't about compliance or structure or policies, it's about the conditions that impact decision-making. Sound-Up Governance features fresh perspectives to help boards and executives to be a bit better tomorrow than they were yesterday.
Matt VO
Welcome back to Sound-Up Governance. Unless you're brand new to the Ground-Up Governance platform, you already know that this whole thing is basically an equal creative partnership between me and Nate Schmold, who does all of the illustrations and other brilliant visual goodies. But you know what? As much work as Nate and I have done together over the past six or eight months, it recently occurred to me with some embarrassment that I don't really know anything about him, besides the fact that he's a creative powerhouse who's amazing to work with. And that means you don't know anything about him either. So let's learn about Nate together.
Nate Schmold
My name is Nate. That's, that's one of the most important parts of who I am. Even from a kid, I really loved video games, pretty hardcore, and always sort of wanted to be involved in video games when I grew up. And I remember one time when I was like, I think eight, seven or eight years old, wrote on the bottom of my parents coffee table in pencil: "if you're reading this, I hope you're a video game, like maker or something like that." Thinking that I would, it was like leaving a note for my future self to like stumble across it and be like, so I always remember having that. That note was always there on the bottom of my parents coffee table. But then, when I started going through school, there was this sense that I got from guidance counselors and teachers and stuff like that, that to make video games, you had to be good at math, and I was horrible at math. So in a weird way, I kind of like, let them talk me out of it. But at the same time, I knew that there was also like, there's artists, and there's art in video games, and there's music in video games. And I was really interested in that stuff as well. So for the next basically, yeah, like 20, 25 years, I'd kind of like spent working on my art just like, you know, casually illustrating stuff and practicing, like my style and that kind of thing. And then, as well as working on music. In high school, I started getting into electronic music production and hip hop music production. And then met up with some dudes in Calgary in the early 2000s where they were basically we started out there were I was selling beats to them. And then they would produce sort of full hip hop songs. And then we decided eventually, that we would actually join up and form a crew called Audible Intelligence. And that was sort of like a, you know, like, we're like a band, we would do shows together and did that for many years, I think, 2002 to about 2008. We were kind of heavily involved in the Calgary hip hop scene. I was running a record label at the time. So I was putting out that work plus, other electronic musicians and hip hop musicians from around the world, and I think, ran the label from 2000 to 2013. I think in that time, we put out almost 75 albums from artists around the world. And yeah, kind of just rolled with that for many, many years. And then for work, I was doing web design, I was working at a web design company. Started off as a designer, like doing, you know, like the actual Photoshop work to establish what the look of the website was. But in in like a web design project, once you sort of establish that look, you you basically hand it off to the programmers, and then you now basically have nothing to do. You know, you're helping fix bugs, and you know, figure out any thing that comes up, but ultimately a lot of the heavy work is done. So in those times, I would actually sit with the programmer and was sort of learning how they're putting it all together as a website. And did that for a few years. And then decided, "oh, you know, I could do this on my own, as well as trying to make a go of the music stuff!" So kind of left, the company started focusing more on trying to make some money with the music. And yeah, I kept that going until about 2008. And my wife and I decided that we would move from Calgary to Vancouver Island. We had our son he was born in 2009. So kind of split being dad and and freelancing. And then I started to get pretty depressed around 2012 and 13. And had that that coffee table in the back of my mind with the video game design and starting to wonder, you know, what I was doing with my life and just started messing around with game engines, basically. It's got to the point where, if you want to make a video game, you don't necessarily have to know how to program anymore. There's a lot of like interfaces and engines that are designed to kind of wrap up all the code in you know, visual, like a visual language. So it's like, the logic is like, you have a block of something, and you want it to do something. So you can kind of like draw the path to what, instead of what the blocks are doing. So I basically started just messing around with that. And then I think the late 2013, I had something that was like, effectively a prototype of a game that I was feeling really passionate about and was loving working on. Like, I couldn't stop thinking about it to the point where like, I kind of stopped taking on new client work, like I was keeping up with my existing stuff, but I was actively avoiding, like new new customers, because I was afraid of like how much time it would take away from being able to work on the game. So I was like burning through savings and you know, maxing out credit cards and stuff to pay the bills. But it was like, at that point, I would, it was like I knew this is what I wanted to do. Like I wanted to be making a video game I kind of taken all these skills that I had, like with the art and the music and stuff that I've been building up my whole life. And it was all actually like coming together into one, one product. So it felt like "oh my god, this is like what I should have been doing all along!" And then in the process of working on that game, I had met Jason Kapalka, who is the guy who created Bejeweled. You know, he's co founder of PopCap, which is, you know, pretty epic, and legendary game studio. Found out that he was living in this tiny, little Vancouver Island town that I was living in. Just by some crazy weird coincidence, it just so happened that we moved to a town that he lived in. We kind of met up for coffee and chatted about my game while it was while I was preparing to put it up on Kickstarter. And he was giving me advice and checking it out. And then we were kind of in touch and I was doing some freelance stuff for him, like some graphic design work off and on like just randomly. And then when I started getting close to actually shipping my game, he was like, "well, when you ship it, if you would like a job, I'm starting up a new studio." And basically offered me a job. And once the game launched, I kind of transitioned into working for this new studio, Blue Wizard, which is kind of what I've been doing since 2015 or so. Just trying to lend my lend my insight in terms of like, you know, there's a team working on a game, and I'm not technically involved in it, but just lending insight on like game design and creative ideas that would help benefit. You know, doing one on ones with people to just get a vibe of like, how they're actually how their work is going. And if there's like personal problems that need to be, you know, worked out or anything like that, as well as doing a lot of the sound design across projects. So anytime like sound effects are needed, I'd usually, you know, be the first one to put my hand up. Because like, it's one of the things I love to do most and the sound and music aspect of things. Yeah, just recently, we pitched some stuff to a new partner, which we can't really, unfortunately say anything about because we're still under NDA, and it hasn't been announced. But...
Matt
When it comes out, everyone will know will recognize it.
Nate Schmold
Yeah, this will be it's a it's like a good progression, sort of what we've done so far. And it's kind of like a, we've got together a much bigger team, this time. Kind of working on this new project. It's like a, sort of like the dream of what we've done to this point. It's kind of like the natural progression to like really step it up as like hardcore as we could. And, yeah, so we've got a new game that will be coming out in this year in on Halloween.
Matt VO
As much as Nate's not a particularly governance-y guest, he so has that unkillable entrepreneurial spirit that a lot of my previous guests have had. I mean, I can vouch for the fact that having a band often feels like having a startup that never scales up, where the fuel that keeps it going is a combination of ego, joy and pure creative drive. And Nate brought that drive to the table within the first few minutes of us meeting each other, as you'll hear in a second, even talking about how we connected sparked some really useful ideas about the future of Ground-Up Governance.
Matt
I mean, I don't know if I told you my journey that brought me to you specifically but I was literally I had this idea. And it wasn't as specific as what Ground-Up Governance turned into. In fact, I think it sort of started like it might be a book. Well, it probably started before it even was a book, I was just like, "I don't know, I don't really care about the medium. I want it to be something..." But I knew that I needed illustrations. And and it wasn't even that I had a style in mind. It was that I knew that anything I had to say in the way I wanted to say it, it wouldn't have the impact without illustrations. And you and so I was asking everybody, I like everybody I would just have a meeting with random anyone, some CEO I'd never met before. Just be like, "Hey, do you know any illustrators?" and, and some people said, "yeah, maybe," and I would follow up and they never introduce me to anyone. And Lisa, whom I've known for, I don't know, at least 10 years. We were chatting and I said, "Do you know any illustrators?" And she said, "Yes!" That was the only person who gave me an unequivocal "Yes, I do. I'm going to introduce you to Nate."
Matt VO
The Lisa in question. Here is Lisa Oldridge, my guest from Episode Three. Lisa and I have known each other for a whole bunch of years, and I already trusted her judgment. But now, I owe her big for connecting me with Nate. Lisa and Nate met in the altMBA program, which is a super cool course started by Seth Godin, and is basically exactly what its name promises it to be. Check it out if you've never heard of it. Anyway, thanks, Lisa!
Matt
My recollection of our first conversation was it wasn't very long. I wasn't really sure how to explain anything to you. And, and we left I did my best. And we and we left it kind of at "why don't you just send me something, whatever it is that comes to mind after talking? and we'll see if it's A) something that resonates with me and B) something that you don't hate doing."
Nate Schmold
Yep.
Matt
And first thing you sent me was the boardroom illustration that's like the main it's like the it's like, almost the theme of the whole platform. It was like, beyond perfect. But I I have no idea if I'm remembering that right. That's just feels like what how it happened?
Nate Schmold
Yea for sure. That Yeah, absolutely. I think. I mean, you say you don't think we had a long conversation. It may not have been very long. But I do, I think meeting you and talking about what your mentality was on, you know, this topic. And me coming in fresh, like I, you know, I was aware of, I was aware of these types of things and these concepts and stuff, but only like, very tangentially is that a word?
Matt
Yeah.
Nate Schmold
So, like, hearing your enthusiasm, and your vibe, basically was very helpful. Because I think, yeah, that conversation really set the stage on, kind of, I felt confident, and at least, I felt like I could take a take a huge swing. And at the very least, if you weren't into it, then you weren't into it. And then but I mean, yeah, it was, yeah, it was, it was like such a cool is such a cool thing to talk to you. And then to show you that first sketch, which is just like this ridiculous, you know, just silly little scene of like a boardroom, how I being like, an a noob, you know, outsider would understand it, and what I think might be like, you know, the kind of things that would be happening. And I think that vibe has definitely carried carried on like, yeah, every every time I know I'm, I read through your, your work, your definition of what, what a certain term is all about. And then I'm sort of like, it plants a bunch of seeds of like visuals in my mind of what it's actually like in the real world. And like, what, you know, what a problem might be or what it's like, and then yeah, just trying to come up with like, a silly way to, to show that off. It's, it's been so fun.
Matt
Yeah, I mean, it's kind of absurdly, I mean, I'm trivializing both of our work, but it's kind of absurdly easy in a way. And, and for anyone, assuming that I don't edit myself out of this recording, for anyone who's hearing me say this, pause for a second or don't pause and go and look at that first drawing that that boardroom drawing that's everywhere on the site, and like, zoom in on all the faces and stuff. Because you'll know, immediately, especially any of you who've actually sat through a real board meeting, looking at all the characters and the faces and seeing the like, you know, the screaming guy on the table and, like, you recognize all of those vibes. And it's not just because they're universal, it's because, you know, you go through those feelings at every meeting that you attend, and you'd know that that like monotonous screaming, dude, you know, that every part of it is both hilarious and surreal, but also, like ultra real at the same time. Grotesquely real. And so that that's, I think, where the the vibe match happened. So I'm curious and I'll put you on the spot. Because I, Nate knows this about me by now that I like, I just can't stop coming up with new things like more stuff than we could possibly do. And more and more, most of the stuff that I come up with is really dumb, and it's not worth following. But...
Nate Schmold
I don't know about that.
Matt
Well, I mean, you know, it's not good enough, I think. Some of its good enough, but some of it most of it... anyway. So, you know where we're at now, like, what do you where do you want it to go? And I don't just mean like Ground-Up Governance, but like the stuff that we're learning together and the stuff that you're picking up from it, what? Where could this go do you think?
Nate Schmold
it's very easy to fall into a trap of kind of keeping up with, you know, keeping the keeping the status quo of it and making sure that we've got like the bare, the bare minimum of content and stuff that we need to like to be rolling out and that kind of thing. But I think our past, even just the past couple of weeks, our conversations have been just really inspiring in terms of like, new things that we could be trying and I don't know how specific you want me to get. But I think there has been some, there's been some awesome ideas. I mean, we're talking about, we're talking about a comic...
Matt
Oh, that'll be out by the time this is out. So, Potato Pat will will have launched between the time we're recording and the time the the episode comes out.
Nate Schmold
So yeah, Potato Pat. I mean, that's, that's a good, I think, a good experiment, and sort of a transition from where we're going with like the, you know, the blog content/image, but maybe putting a little bit more, almost reversing it. So the image is the comic. And that sort of gives really the sense of what the meat of what we're talking about. And then we can have some sort of supplemental stuff to talk about it. But my dream would actually be have enough, you know, time to do like an actual animation, like a little cartoon or something similar to type scene.
Matt
Cool!
Nate Schmold
So having, you know, taking the comic and actually having a little actual voiced animation about it. I mean, going further, like doing stuff like apps, we've talked about game ideas, I think going in on that, like, would be pretty sweet. I think there's some pretty cool game concepts that would work as like training, or like, you know, conversation starting material, like in a group setting. Exposing them to new ideas. And I think that had thinking about that, and like relating it to what our experience was in altMBA, something like that would have been super valuable. Because as both like an icebreaker
Matt
Yeah
Nate Schmold
and like, getting everyone outside of their shells, and like brainstorming without any risk of, you know, no risk of judgment and stuff, because it's just like in the context of this game. So you're exploring these concepts, or are just throwing things out without worrying about how they're going to be perceived or whatever.
Matt
Strangely, I don't know if this occurred to you, it probably has, because this is like your life. But it never occurred to me even talking about the games. It never occurred to me to like, really mush together Ground-Up Governance and your video game life. Like,
Nate Schmold
That's, I'm thinking about that. Don't worry.
Matt
I didn't think about until right this second,
Nate Schmold
I think doing something that, you know, that's an app-based type thing or something that everyone's sort of able to, either. Yeah, for sure.
Matt
Because there's like 1,000,000% chance that we come up with enough really absurd scenarios that are deeply rooted in real life, that are also corporate governance related, but generically hilarious and enjoyable as an experience for a gamer rather than a boardroom. You know, what I mean? Like this world is full of nonsense.
Nate Schmold
Right on! No, I mean, yeah, that is, that is something that is has been percolating, I think, since I think, especially since our last or last conversations for the last couple of weeks. Like, the possibilities are, I think that would be like a cool progression to kind of take what we've done and or adapt it into adapt it into something that would be like a playable version of kind of what we're doing.
Matt
The only other important thing is, I mean, maybe just sort of say what if anything you want to say about your art. Like describe what are the stuff that you like to do and where people can find you and whatever.
Nate Schmold
Sure, yeah, so I guess. So I've got a website that that showcases a lot of a lot of my past work in terms of like personal projects, and just sort of polished stuff that looks you know, visually pleasing. But you get to get a good sense of what my style is and what my you know, where I sort of lean. And you'll see some similarities between what I'm doing with Ground-Up Governance as well as you know, other other stuff. But if you go to 3030.ca, it's basically my portfolio site for everything from you know, I've got my illustration work is up there. I've got links to the games that I've worked on, and then also links to various music projects and that kind of thing. I mean, ultimately, I... the illustration stuff I feel incredibly blessed to have met Matt, because it's...
Matt
I get that a lot.
Nate Schmold
Well, it's yeah, just nuff said. It wasn't until I had met you and talked to you that I realized that there...I had always sort of convinced myself that my work was too out there to be applied to specific things. I always thought like, okay, I can do t shirt graphics, or I could do you know, skateboard graphics. Because it's, you know, I have a very cartoony kind of weird oddball off kilter kind of style. And it never really occurred to me that there would be a market for that, for certain things. And I think, I mean, it certainly has its place. And I think meeting meeting you has, that was one of our first things to talk about is like, you know, "Is this gonna fit? Is this actually going to be something?" And, you know, it was like a magical combination that actually worked perfectly. It actually got me thinking that, you know, there are, there are other ways that my work can sort of supplement content, or, you know, just bring a different flavor or a different vibe to it. So, I mean, I'm really looking forward to exploring that and sort of seeing what other places that I might be able to apply, like, my style, or my sense of just weirdness actually has like a value and it's not sort of like a not seeing it as like a deterrent or like a you know, like a negative anymore. Like, yeah, I'm just sort of keeping my eyes out for for projects that I might be able to be involved in that that would could use, like a sense of weird, you know, weird, silly, cartoony vibes. And yeah, I think 3030.ca is, is the best place to kind of see what I'm doing and get a taste of all the different areas.
Matt
And, you know, for what it's worth, for anyone who does need or who is inspired to add some kind of illustrative flair to their thing, and is interested in chatting with Nate. You're also like, so fast and easy to work with. And what's what's even better is the rare times where you come to me and this has only happened maybe I don't know, twice, or three times out of the 50-plus things that you've created, you come to me and you're just like, "I don't know what to do here." I always have some really dumb idea that you turn into something good. So you're also good at extracting value from nothing, which is really great.
Nate Schmold
Well, I think, yeah, I attribute that to the freelance. The years, the 10 years of doing web design for people and you know, getting getting feedback, especially once it started to be me working with Calgary clients, and I was doing a lot of stuff over the phone, or via email. You get feedback on something where you present something, it's like, "well, yeah, I think, you know, I like it. But I think it needs to be you know, more, there's more pizzazz." Or you get like these weird, like abstract terms that don't really explain anything at all. So I think through those conversations, I really learned to like, kind of pick up on like, reading between the lines and/or like, figuring out like, what are they trying to get at, or like, what what are they valuing? And that that is really helped because yeah, like from everything, I think, from communicating game ideas to people, having the sense of empathy of like, understanding where they're coming from, or where, you know, if we're talking specifically, specifically about us, like I'm half my job is trying to figure out where, where you're coming from and what you're trying to express. And then and then me sort of putting it in my like, tumble dry cotton candy maker to try and figure out how to like turn it into something. But yeah, I think yeah, I'm, I'm proud of that ability that I have of like being able to pick up on or at least hone in on what somebody is trying to go after.
Matt
You know, it's a you've probably experienced this have you done have you done much recording in like professional studios?
Nate Schmold
No
Matt
Okay. When you find engineers that are like, great. Because every every or not every but most engineers who work in real studios understand what gear is and understand how to deploy that gear to get nice sounds and whatever, and they know how to operate the board, and they know how to use Pro Tools and all that stuff. But the ones who are great are the ones who do what you just described, which is, you know, some asshole musician is like, "I don't like that sound. I want it to be more purple." The engineer's like "I know exactly what you're talking about. I'll get on that." And they get it and they do it and it makes a difference. Right. Like that's the magic.
Nate Schmold
Totally. Yeah. Yeah, there was I saw a recent meme on Facebook where it was like a joke about that, where like, it was talking about, like producer life where "Yeah, I want to I want to sound more purple." And there the meme was basically like, you know, look how stupid people are when they don't understand what job we do. But then all I could think about after reading that it was like in support of, you know, the bullshit that an audio engineer has to go through. But for me, like it was like, "Well, okay, well, let's figure out what purple means! Like, I don't see what the problem is."
Matt
That's the entire job! What do you think your job is?
Nate Schmold
Yeah, like, show them some alternatives? Like, is this more purple, or is this more purple?
Matt
Yeah, I'm with you. It's it for an engineer who finds that insufferable. They, they're the problem, right?
Nate Schmold
I totally agree.
Matt
Because that's their entire job. Yeah, you know, they, in fact, in most studios, the main engineers have assistants to do all the other stuff. So the engineer's job isn't actually to deploy gear, it's to decipher purple or whatever other nonsense comes out of the musician's mouth, and then yell at the assistants to go and do the thing.
Nate Schmold
Right, to actually translate that. Yeah, I mean, I think that is what I do at the studio a lot of times as well, like, my understanding of programming and my understanding of art allows me to actually be like a, you know, like a buffer translator between the two, where the programmer might have no idea what an artist is thinking, but I can actually explain it in terms that they would understand. So I think that's yeah, that's a super valuable thing,
Matt
You basically somehow brought this back to actual corporate governance, because the people...
Nate Schmold
[Nate laughs]
Matt
No, I'm serious! Because if I think about, and we don't have to dive into this too deep. But if I think about a, an excellent board chair, and/or an excellent CEO, they live in that space between operating a company and making decisions about the future of the company. And then taking those decisions about the future and operationalizing them, and then taking the feedback from the operations and turning into decisions about the future. The translation between those two frames of mind is difficult, often done very poorly, and the skill that it takes to do that translation, I don't think is really valued where it should be. And I think what you're describing is this is the substance of that skill. Right? It's the person who has a sincere empathy and understanding for the art and the science.
Nate Schmold
Right. To basically yeah, understand what both sides need, or what what both areas need, and then actually figure out like, a way to make that happen,
Matt
And to empower them both. Right?
Nate Schmold
Right.
Matt
So you just solved corporate governance.
Nate Schmold
There you go. Just the guy with the least experience. No, man, it's it's been super educational. And I like I think I've told you like, every week, you know, when I'm even when I'm just drawing the thing, like, it's just rolling through my mind how it applies to my work and the company. And like, you know, it's just yeah, it's just such good material, I think.
Matt
Well, it takes two as they say.
Matt VO
So now you know where the magic of Ground-Up Governance comes from. It's totally one of those greater than the sum of our parts situations. Or at least that's how it feels to me. Maybe if I was out of the picture, the Nate-only version of Ground-Up Governance would be way better, but you're stuck with me. Hahaha. Anyway, this has been a pretty small excerpt of a conversation that went in a ton of other non-governance directions. If any of you happen to be jonesing to dive deeper into the Nate Schmold rabbit hole, let me know and I can put together another episode. In the meantime, thanks as always for tuning in. And thanks, especially to Nate for being awesome. Send us an email or voice memo to soundup@groundupgovernance.com if you have any questions, complaints, video game pitches or any ideas you want us to check out. Until next time.