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Unbound is a weekly podcast, created to help you achieve more as a leader. Join Chris DuBois as he shares his growth journey and interviews others on their path to becoming unbound. Delivered weekly on Thursdays.
0:00
Today we dive into the traits consistent in leaders building trust and empowering your team. Are you a leader trying to get more from your business and life? Me too. So join me as I document conversations, stories and advice to help you achieve what matters in your life. Welcome to unbound with me, Chris DuBois. Andy Neely is on a mission to transform managers into high performing leaders after suffering under bad bosses early in his career with 20 plus years as a business owner, speaker and fortune 500 leadership trainer and he teaches executives and aspiring leaders how to build trust, motivate teams, and maximize potential. His book The Golden principles uses insights from a rescue dog to share universal lessons on living and leading well. Andy, welcome,
0:49
Chris. I'm so glad for us to get connected. I've enjoyed our conversations together. I feel like I've got a fellow leadership soulmate. And I'm looking forward to our conversation. Awesome. I'm
0:59
looking forward to it as well. So why don't we kick off with the the audience here in your origin story?
1:06
Well, I had a bad boss. In fact, I've had multiple bad bosses. But Jerry is stuck in my mind. I was working in construction worker my way through high school and college summers in Phoenix, Arizona, going from job site to job site. In the cab of a pickup truck Jerry was the driver I was the paperwork filler out or every time we finished up a job site. Jerry had issues with anger management. And Chris, I'll never forget, as I shared with you, when we first visited, I didn't even quite know how to respond is I think a 17 year old high school graduate kid working kind of a real job for the first time at one point in his profanity laced anger, Jerry reached over, grabbed the stapler out of my hand open it up and proceeded to whack my leg with an open stapler whole number of times. And you know, I was just this Hawaii 17 year old kid. But I even remember thinking at that time, you know, this is just wrong. He Jerry is not just a bad boss, he's a bad person. He, he should you should get control of that. And then use I talked about, you know, I found faith as a young person, as I was learning about this beautiful model from the Gospels of servant leadership. I thought, this is not that. And in some respects, it started me on a lifetime path of you know, no bad bosses. What, what makes a good leader? A good leader? No, no anger management issues. So that's a bit of my story. And I've been tracking that same story for decades at this point.
2:43
Yeah, that's crazy. So you hear the term toxic leadership a lot. And I think like you, I like to just replace toxic with bad leadership. Like, it's just just bad. Just don't do it. Yeah. So I guess that was a long time ago. Not to not to date you. But like, when one time so a couple of years? So at least, the what? You've seen a lot of different things since then, what are some of the biggest gaps between managers and leaders that you're seeing today?
3:13
Yeah. So I would probably say there's at least two gaps, I think, gosh, probably for the last seven years really is seven to 10 years, really, since the advent of social media becoming a high priority channel, the this idea of celebrity leadership, I don't know what else to call it. But if if I can amass enough followers, I'm a person of influence has shallowed out what it takes for people to think of what makes a good leader. Now, if you can just get, you know, 10,000 followers, you're a person of influence, and there's absolutely no substance behind that at times. And then then I also think that's been combined with you know, a lot of people get moved into management positions simply because they were good at what they did. And there was an opening and gosh, a generation and a half ago, they call that the Peter Principle. All I know is today, I have a lot of managers that I work with that what they know how to do is what they've known how to do. And there's not really a path for them to think bigger, broader, further to, to have a view of the whole organization to see into the future to to recognize the mantle of leadership means that now they've got to get their teams to execute. It's not just a personal thing. So I think you've combined the shallowness of celebrity leadership, with a lack of perspective and in you and I know we've talked about I've become pretty passionate about what I call the four leadership necessities. If you have managers can be working for areas of focus, I think they they can begin to sense they're transforming themselves into high performing leaders, right?
4:55
Why don't we segue right into those, those four areas. also Okay,
5:01
so I've already alluded to definitely a couple of them. The first one is this whole area that I call the area of conviction, or strategy or or vision of frontline worker, an individual performer, even a even a manager at times, their focus is down their focus is today's numbers, the machine, I'm in front of the, the project that I'm working on my way through, where leaders need to get their eyes up. And they really need to get their eyes up in three ways. Chris, they need to see bigger. So all of a sudden, the implied entire plant has got to be in my mind, not just the machine that I'm in charge of they think bigger, they need to think broader. And that is that they need to start having a market perspective, they need to understand what's our competition doing? What's the impact of the global economic slowdown, and how's that going to impact our ability to do what we're supposed to do, they need to think bigger, they need to think broader. And then they need to think further into the future. It's not just this day, this week, this month, but it's, it's this year's goals, and it's a three year plan and even a five year vision. So first one is conviction. Second one is competence. And again, I alluded to that, for a manager who wants to become a leader, it's no longer about am I the most productive person on the block. It's, am I helping my team to execute? And in 2023, that really means getting a team to execute during times of uncertainty, how do we manage risk? How do we make decisions, when we don't have all the information in front of us? That's that competency equation, the third equation, and that's one that you and I connected on the very first time we visited Chris, and that was that character piece, you'll never be a better leader than you are a person you can, you can be of conviction and get your team to execute. And if you're not fair minded, and honest and other oriented and balanced, it will impact your ability to lead well so that that character one, the fourth leadership necessity, Chris I, I articulated, I struggled with articulating for several years what I was seeing good leaders do I finally I called it communication consistency, consistent communication. The Wiley research organization and their research, they call this the alignment key. What I call it is covenant and that's kind of an old fashioned word but, but I think we need to bring it back into today's vocabulary. I live in Texas here in Austin, Texas, where it just turned very cool this late fall day. And I think of a marriage covenant here in Texas if you get married, obviously it's the love and affection forever and ever and sickness and unhealth in richness and in poor and, and the romantic love that's associated with that. The other thing that people sometimes fail to forget is a marriage covenant in Texas, the officiant signs a legal formal document that's submitted to the roles of the Secretary of State. There's both a personal side and a formal side of that covenant. And when I looked at folks like you that were good leaders, it finally dawned on me, that's what they manage. Well, they've got the organization's best interest in mind. Wow, they have their people's best interest in mind. And that's a dynamic tension that never goes away. They they struggle with, how much do I serve my people? And how much do I serve our cause? And, and there's always a tension there. But the leaders I work with that are growing in their leadership, they they wrestle with that tension that what I call covenants, so long winded answer here, but conviction competence, character and covenant, and I'm convinced with more than 20 years now of looking at folks, like you and other managers who really are becoming leaders. You get those four areas and you work on those four areas. You can look at yourself in the mirror every morning and say I'm working to becoming a leader and not just a manager.
8:51
Awesome. I want to go deeper into all of this right now. Just the thoughts that I was having, as you're you're sharing. There was a quote I read I don't know this week last week from Mark Manson I don't know what he's like a therapist. They I don't know he writes funny books. But he he separated competence and character. It's like competence is what you do when there's something to gain, right characters Is that how you're showing up when there's nothing to gain with competence you're paid in cash, right financial gaining in character, you're paid in love. And but what I find amazing like with your four areas, competence and character do both need to be there in order for a leader to actually show up right later to be the one that people want to follow. Because if you're not competent, how did you get there? And then you need that character to get people to know you're gonna keep them keep doing this for the future. Yeah, well,
9:49
well into the your exact points about about, about how they blend together. I was working with Cisco technologies and their leadership team mid level managers a number of years ago, and you know those Certain remember the early 2000s, Cisco ONE point was the most valuable company in the world. And of course, they continue to be a huge company. They're somewhat invisible to the consumer world, but they're supporting all of the inter, you know, internet infrastructure behind us. And I was working with a small leadership team, top performing team, top performing, you know, this is Cisco, right, this was the best and the brightest, one of the managers in the room, it came out during our discussions that he had this hidden character flaw that all of a sudden came to light in front of his entire team. And Chris, it was interesting to me, because it was, it was like a slow motion movie, I could see. In fact, I will maintain, I saw him lose the ability to lead in about a 10 minute window when, when that character flaw came out. And, and all of a sudden, the performance issues went out the window, you could tell there were people that said, I don't want to work for that guy anymore. And it was it was because of the lack of your quote a minute ago, right that he was, he was shallow in character instead of rich and character, and it caught up with him.
11:07
Yeah, that makes sense. I've seen that. Yeah, the other piece with the covenants, I think it's interesting that when we look at our teams we're often looking for, or not often, I guess, but something that you can look for, is whether an individual on your team is more of a mercenary or a missionary, right? Like, why are they actually showing up? And how are they working with the company. But then when you when you pull back and look at the actual leader? I think I don't know how many people actually look at themselves and say, am I here for the cause? Or for the cash? Right? And that because that does change how you're going to show up in that organization? And not to say that it's wrong to get paid for what you're doing. But like, yeah, so and this leads
11:51
us to some of our earlier discussions, if you're emerging as a leader, you recognize, I'm not at the top of the pyramid, I'm at the bottom of the pyramid. And indeed, if I'm leading Well, there is a sacrifice that's involved. The old military adage that Simon Sinek wrote the book leaders eat last as it is a very visual way to recognize that that, that I'm here to serve my team members. And so in in very practical ways, that's, that's a leader that says we've got our numbers that we must hit. And we're given Andy, three weeks of extra PTO that will never be written up. His mom is struggling with dementia and cancer right now. And we just need to rally around him and support him in that and, and that stuff doesn't get documented it. It's outside the HR policy manual. That leader just makes it happen for somebody who needs to have it happen. And that that tension of driving for mission, as you said, I mean, the whole point of effective leadership is to accomplish what's in front of us. While you maintain that personal side, Kim Scott talks about this in her book, radical candor, caring personally, while still challenging directly, right.
13:08
Yeah. And I think that so one of my favorite lessons that I've had personally, as a leader was when I was in the military, as a platoon leader, and we we had been a very long draining event, there was not a lot of food, the the people who were supposed to take care of us for food did not do a very good job. And so it had been like, three days were following the leaders eat last kind of philosophy and right, like I made sure my men ate before me, and so didn't have a lot of food myself, my platoon sergeant are very hungry by the third day. But at one point, we were sitting down, we're doing our paperwork, kind of planning out our next missions, and some of the lower level soldiers came up with plates of food and said, you know, Hey, make sure make sure you guys eat, we need to, we need you guys like on you know, otherwise we can't function. And it was a that was one of those realizations. Beautiful. And
13:59
that's that that principle of reciprocity, right? Because as a leader gives, they actually gain and what a what a visceral, physical, visual demonstrates?
14:09
No, I mean, it felt great. It also taught me like, you can't just look take blanket guidance, right like that without context. So like, yeah, I should always eat last. But at some point, I need to take care of myself, otherwise, my team will fail without me. And so that's exactly what I was like. But yeah,
14:28
that's why I called it a dynamic tension because there's judgment there. I remember the first person that that ever needed to stop working for me the day she walked out of the building, after I had done everything to save her job that I could because I thought I was trying to be a good boss. When she walked out. I walked out to our office area, and one of her fellow co workers looked at me and said, Well, what took you so long? Because I had fallen off to one extreme right where I was the the, you know the continuum. I talked about these days of difference between being nice and being kind and, and I think managers who think it's their responsibility to be nice, are really wimping out on the hard thinking they need to do around how do I how do I be kind? How do I drive to take care of my people while I'd push them to be their best? And that's that tension that never goes away?
15:23
Yeah, because sometimes taking care of that person is helping them find their next role. Because they're not a great fit. They're like, why would you slow down?
15:29
You made that sound great. I wish I could say this was helping Gwen find her next role. The truth of the matter is, she was a salesperson for us. She left she went to work for the competition, and she took business away from us. And you know, is, if there's any good from that whole thing, it's at least, I began to learn the lesson that my job is not to make my people feel so good. At the sacrifice of the mission of the organization. There's a dynamic tension that leaders wrestle with,
15:56
right, because the greater good of that group is now at stake. Right? So
16:01
well, and in a business sense, viability, you don't get to be around next year to continue to offer jobs to all these people if you don't push hard this year. Right.
16:07
And so that's where the hard decisions of being a leader come in. Yeah, exactly. So let's talk about the we've, we've had very many challenging times lately. I mean, COVID knots, I think most businesses just want knocked a lot of them out, and then knocked a bunch of them down, and they're still recovering or finding other ways to function. What are some of the leadership traits that you have noticed, are critical for navigating those uncertain times? Yeah, yeah.
16:39
Well, I think that, you know, you and I've talked about the issue of character, I think resilience is one of those hallmarks of character where I don't know what the right answer is, I'm not sure what the future holds. But I'm gonna get up tomorrow, and get back at it. And we'll figure out tomorrow, tomorrow, and we'll figure out the day after that the day after that. And so, I think leadership resilience is a big one. And then leadership agility. You know, that phrase, I think you and I both heard, and we probably shared with some of our coaching clients, you know, fail fast and fix that whole ability to say, alright, we tried this, and that didn't work. That doesn't mean we're bad. That just means we got to pivot a little bit. And, and so fail fast and fix. And then the last one, that that, that I've, I've really come to respect in a number of the leaders I work with is, there are there are some people, Chris, that are supposed to be market leaders that are supposed to be at the front that are innovators that are pushers, I think, a lot, a lot of leaders who end up being successful leaders, they're, they're fast followers, where they they figure out where the wake is, and they get themselves in that week. And so they can stay close to, but they're there. They're not in bleeding edge, because in 2023, bleeding edge is a pretty expensive edge at times. fast follower.
18:05
Yeah, I think a lot of people don't consider that, that even if you are at that, that edge, the speed at which the competition can come behind you and do the same thing because you've cleared the path for them. Right. It's like when you're snowshoeing and you the first verse break trail and you're miserable. But then the next verse, I'm like,
18:26
well, and you know, we read an entrepreneur and fortune and Wall Street, all these, you know, dominant market leaders that got out the first movers. Most of the market is not built by first movers, most of the market is built by fast followers, right?
18:39
Yeah. That first move just gets you a foothold to be able to work on your next move. So exactly right. That's exactly right. Yeah. You said something with with resiliency. The I was told by a leader, long, I mean, long ago that optimism is a requirement to be a leader. Because you're constantly moving towards the future. You're trying to get people to follow you and no one is going to follow a pessimistic leader. Why would they right? Yeah. And
19:06
I think well, and in fact, I suspect if you're an optimist, who's also somewhat vulnerable to your team, there are times when your team around you knows this will never work. But you're not going to try six different things unless you're willing to try the second thing. And then the third thing and the fourth thing so that that cup is always half full, even at the risk of looking a little bit foolish at times to people around you because you're trying to see a different future than they see.
19:36
Yeah, definitely. I think those extremely optimistic leaders are also the ones who are pulling in people to talk to them a lot more to kind of get a bearing on Hey, is do you agree with this plan? Is this something that you see working out? Yeah, if to win them over? Or if not to win them over just to get more feedback? Got Aeroplan that they can, yeah, we can use. Well, and that's
20:03
that, you know, I think every one of these there's a natural tension to it and pulling in all that counsel and advice and, and, you know, advisory board members, you know, begins to separate the optimists from the Pollyanna ish. Everything is going to be okay. Because a good leader balances that. It's going to be hard. We're going to lose some, we're going to try. There's no guarantee of success. And I can't wait to get up tomorrow morning and give it a try. And there's that, that balance
20:32
right there. Yeah. And there's also the you can't get too much advice, because at some point it's going to counter are like counter arguments will surface and so now you're back at square one anyways. Yeah, yeah. Love it. The so. But actually, let's just let's talk about that with like getting getting feedback from your team. And so what are some of the approaches, the tactics, things that you would do? Going into an organization to make sure that you're actually getting quality feedback that will help move the company's direction?
21:02
Yeah, a couple of thoughts in that area. Once again, I've got these different continuums that really helped my simple little brain think about things I think, I think leaders need to take their team members down what I call the transparency to vulnerability communication continuum. You know, Chris, you and I've talked, I do keynote speeches, you and I are both up on stage or in front of groups at times. And, and I tell when some stories I've been told I'm a good storyteller, they're a little bit vulnerable, we laugh at Andy together and say, Yeah, what a, what an idiot, you're there. But you learned the lesson. truth matters, I'm, I'm being transparent, I'm not actually being vulnerable, because, you know, 45 minutes later, I walked down off the stage, and I go back to my business and, and they never see me, again. Vulnerability is earned over time, I'm relatively vulnerable with relatively fewer people, obviously, at the personal level, that's the familial thing. But in the business level, I think one of the ways leaders draw loyalty as as they help their team members go down this transparency to vulnerability continuum. And here's the point of that Chris, leaders have to move first. So leaders need to demonstrate, I'm not perfect leaders need to demonstrate I'll eat my own crow leaders need to demonstrate that man, I cost the organization something for people that have enough courage. So it really is okay to mistake to make mistakes along the way. And then leaders need to celebrate creative ideas, even if they know that is the wrong idea. But we're going to give them a try. Because if we scratch this idea, he's not going to come up with any others. And the third idea might be the idea that rockets us into the next five years. So so they've got to demonstrate that continuum journey themselves. And then they've got to celebrate when people show up with a degree of transparency and vulnerability.
23:01
I guess, one of the ways I've looked at vulnerability, and I think it was from advice I gotten from someone else was that you should only be vulnerable with the people you trust. Mainly because it can be used against you. Now what point right, obviously, you want to trust your team, and you want to be able to use them. And so is there when looking for this? How do I move from transparency to vulnerability? And maybe I'm looking at this wrong, but like, No, how would you go about kind of making sure you're being vulnerable in the right ways with things that actually help your team? And they're not just things that some sour employee can, you know, who is leaving the organization can use against a yes.
23:37
Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think, I think we all need to recognize that, that it takes time. You know, if we go back to the Duke University study, gosh, probably 15 years ago, at this point, that trusted advisor study that so many is have grabbed ahold of and read and I think their study, this was an outside consultant or vendor that was trying to become, you know, first phone call when an issue and they said it took up to 36 months to journey up this trusted advisor pyramid and, and I have some background in sales management stuff. And I know, you know, good sales training manual is going to tell you, you're gonna get you know, seven to 12 nose before you get a yes, you're gonna have to, you're gonna have to make a lot of deposits along the way. So, so I ended up talking with my clients about the concept of trust deposits, and trust withdrawals, and there are two truisms, truisms of trust deposits and trust withdrawals. The first truism is trust deposits, by their very nature are small. Periodically, maybe you can save the entire company and make a huge trust deposit but day in and day out. As a leader, your trust deposits are relatively small into your team members. Unfortunately, in contradistinction, a trust withdrawal is typically large. Therefore, what you and I need to be doing and what Are the people that are listening to this podcast, we just need to recognize we got to be showing up in little ways pretty consistently along the way. It's a little thing, Chris, you know, I, my wife and I own a small $4 million set of businesses here in, in central Texas and, and I'm not involved day to day in any of those businesses, but I send out a weekly little newsletter, I call it Andy's action, that's kind of an update on the industry. And it in it's challenging my management team in these four leadership necessities, and it's telling some stories of some of our customer success stories. And, and, and I send that out 52 weeks a year. The truth matters. Some of our team members don't read it every single week, but it shows up in their inbox every single week. And I'm just making purposely these little deposits. So when I have to come out and say guys, COVID for Dotto just hit, we gotta shut the doors again. And we're taking everybody salary down by 75%, or whatever hard decisions need to be made, those withdrawals are large. I've been purposefully trying to make small deposits along the way, small deposits, big withdrawals. Therefore, you've got to be purposeful in walking people down that continuum.
26:15
And then I think finding those good moments of praise for the team. Where Yeah, even if it's for an individual, but doing it in public, so that everyone on the team now builds a little more trust because they see someone else right and and get that like trickle out effect.
26:30
Well, and I call it the three fold affirmation conversation where somebody does something, well, you celebrate it with them. Hey, great job, Chris really appreciated that none of us could figure out how to get that done. And you figured it out. They just got one deposit. In fact, Chris, that was wicked smart. Can you tell me what you did to figure it out, and then they retell the story? That's a second deposit. Then you say, hey, great, Chris, at our huddle on? Oh, the Mac has those new, new. I can't even quite figure it out. But they, they throw up balloons and fire light, things like that. And I haven't I haven't quite learned the new Mac OS yet. But but those reactions they put up I think we just saw well, maybe they were reacting because the third deposit then is when I say to Chris, we've got our our huddle on Tuesday, can you take seven minutes and tell the whole team and all of a sudden, one little success became three deposits. And so you can celebrate that in three different ways. And as you and I both know, as leaders, if we're going to be purposefully making deposits, we've got to be creative and thinking about it on a regular basis.
27:38
Yeah, definitely. I used to send out an email. It was like a status update at the end of the week to my boss, and I would highlight people on the team, like who were doing great things, and like, make sure that and then CC my team, so they knew it was happening and that I was showing them off. And that went a long way for you. But also like there there are those big events where you can you need to step up and build. build the trust. Where Yeah, exactly. I was a company commander for basic training unit imagery, one station unit training, and we lost a soldier in the middle of the night, just like when a wall disappeared. The drill sergeant who was counting to make sure that they were there counted, the rifles never counted their heads. And so it was on him. But when I went to the battalion commander, I basically said no, this is this is on me. Because we did we didn't make sure that was like clear guidance, right? Like, obviously it was. Yeah, but but we did. We talked about it. It's only commander said, right? You got this go back. I went back to the company, everyone's expecting this guy to be fired on the spot. I was like, Alright, here's what we got to do. You need to create a plan for how this is never gonna happen. Again, I'm going to do this, like, we made a plan but that built more trust across my organization than those emails I was sending in anything else, because I put myself on the line for them. And but it's also one of the most nerve wracking things. Yeah, what
29:02
am I one time longtime colleagues she she tells a story about she was heading up a client team. And one of their team members lost a million dollar contract. And in similar but different not life and death. But this is a pretty big contract for a small and medium business to lose, lost a million dollar contract because of some mistakes they made. And everybody's convinced that person was going to be fired. And she said Why? Why would I fire them? They just started a million dollar lesson. We all need to make sure we don't repeat that mistake. Well. That's probably bigger than I could have handled because that's a pretty painful loss. But but it's that thing. It's that same point that we have to take risks as leaders and it takes us back to that you know, bottom of the pyramid rather than top of the pyramid in some respects you know leadership is really upside down to what a lot of people think Steve sample the former A president of USC wrote one of my favorite leadership books, just the title of the book, The contrarians guide to leadership tells you a lot of what you and I've been talking about is true.
30:10
I'm taking that one down.
30:14
That even has, I think, my favorite chapter in one of my favorite books, leading gray in a black and white world. And I and what he talks about in that chapter, is that dynamic tension of you know, what, I don't know, do I do I fall off on this edge? But I fall off on that edge? Do I push there? Do I let go there? Leadership is that balancing act of knowing that you don't have the
30:36
answers? One of the big things that I coach, and that I think I'm almost moving almost all of my coaching efforts towards this now. So listeners, there you go, but no, just decision making. You've even
30:48
got a great turnout today. So that's appropriate, because leaders lead in gray a lot, I think,
30:54
yeah. But it's the idea that great leaders are great and well known because they made great decisions. Right? Like when we look back in history, all those big famous generals, right, if we're looking at Steve Jobs, Jeff Bezos, like they made decisions that got them there. And that's why we respect them as leaders. There's a couple of leaders that we we know that have because they made very bad decisions, but we're not really praising the leader, we're looking at the decision they made and why that's important not to do that. Right. Right. So but leadership is completely made up of the decisions that we make, right? When do I go off that side of the cliff or that side? Like? Well, it depends on all of these things, no matter to your specific situation. And so, so having those skills is pretty paramount. And
31:35
how do you? How do you learn to make right decisions? And I think a lot of us will maintain, the way you learn to make great decisions is because you'll learn from the wrong decisions you made.
31:43
You made a lot of them and you figured it out. Yeah. So actually, let's talk about making those decisions, and then passing to your team, the ability to make all these decisions, how do you kind of create that psychological safety within an organization so that they're willing to try and fail forward and do all of these things?
32:06
Yeah, well, I think some of it we've already talked about you and I, as leaders have to demonstrate that degree of transparency moving into PHONER ability is I'm going to make this decision. Colin Powell, you know, he said, a battle plan leader needs to make life and death on the field decisions with no more than 65% of the information they wish they had, we all are making decisions without all of the information we need to have. If we waited to where all of the information, the market would have already passed us by Sol, sol in 2023, perhaps more than any other time and in business history, leaders are having to lead in what you and I call that VUCA world, right? volatile, uncertain, complex ambiguous, we have to let our team members know that this is the clear path today. And if we get better clarity, tomorrow, we're going to modify the plan. But we're not going to sit here until the plan is perfectly clear. Because the market will leave us our mission will leave us the organization will be left behind, we won't be able to serve our people or our constituents or, or the customers or clients that we're working with. And so I think that, that vulnerability and agility of recognizing we've got to move forward and tomorrow may be a different, a different tune. But today we're moving this way, modeling that ourselves as managers and leaders, and then allowing our team members to do the same thing in smaller ways and gain the experience that you and I are talking about.
33:41
Yeah, makes complete sense. Yeah, so I guess last question, I'm gonna throw your way. And before we get into the final three, the what are some of those habits and routines that you're using kind of boost leadership performance? Like over the long term, right, you got your big four? What types of things are you doing to make sure that you're actually instilling those and you're working towards them to be a better leader? Yeah.
34:07
Yeah, well, although I think I've clarified the language around what I believe to be the four leadership necessities. None of these ideas are new right there's been nothing new in leadership since Jesus Christ and and Marcus Aurelius so So continuing to avail myself of the best leadership thinking everything from at the personal level you know, subscribing to James clear, a Jim clears atomic habits email that I get regularly to audio booking Bill George's new book on, on on TrueNorth leadership for emerging leaders and, and, you know, reading Harvard Business Review in the Atlantic to prompt my thinking. So, for me, it's at that personal level of you know, you'll never be a better leader of others than you are of leading yourself. Golf. And then at this point in my career, it also is really about finding the key opportunities to speak into emerging leaders. And so as you know, I've pretty actively promote I do keynotes and workshops and coaching and CEO advising, I've written a couple of books. Part of that, I think is because I don't want people to have to spend as many decades as I did, trying to figure out what turns a manager into a high performing leader. So trying to strengthen my voice a little bit, and then and then working on my own personal habits of leadership. Awesome.
35:33
All right. Wrap it three questions. What book do you recommend everyone should read?
35:42
Well, if they haven't read the country's guide to leadership that should be on the shortlist, also humility us by ah, I'm drawing a blank on the author's name. But really, you know, I said a minute ago, there's nothing new in leadership for the last 2000 years, this is really the Western civilization's approach to leadership that bottom of the pyramid rather than top of the pyramid, you know, that's come back up in some of my conversations recently is humility, toss. So putting putting others first form of leadership, so those would both be on my short list and, and then for, for your, for your people that are just emerging, Chris into leadership, you know, the 21 Irrefutable Laws of Leadership. I've kidded for years, the author John Maxwell, I don't know if he's ever had a new thought on leadership. But neither have I. And neither of you what John Maxwell has done very well through all of his writing. And that book, The 21 Irrefutable Laws is kind of his foundational book. What he does is he reminds us all of the simple foundations around personal and professional leadership.
36:42
A lot of I find a lot of these these books, it's in the the framing, and the stories that they tell that helps sink that message in. And so yeah, that's exactly
36:52
right. Well, and, and I mean, for me, that's, I don't have anything new to say about leadership. But but as my account exec reminds me, very good. And yeah, but, Andy, there's some people who get your voice. And that's really what we're talking about exactly.
37:06
What is next for you professionally?
37:12
Well just finished up some strategic planning for 2020, foreign belongs and beyond. So I can probably answer this better than I could have a month ago, but a couple of books that are sitting in front of me over the next 18 months, and then really purposefully trying to craft a business model allows me to get in front of more folks in the next really three to nine years. That's kind of the window we were talking about in the strategic planning times. Awesome.
37:38
And finally, where can people find you?
37:44
So nearly leadership.com is my website. And the good thing is my last name is spelled, oddly enough, Chris with an oddly spelled last name, that if people just type in an E I L L I E leadership. The other thing, Chris, you and I talked about these, these conversations really lead to I've got a little ebook on the three imperative leadership conversations. And if somebody just goes to leadership materials.com They can download an eight page ebook around holding hard conversations, holding that three fold affirmation conversation, holding co coaching conversations. There's good resource there. So nearly leadership.com leadership materials.com
38:24
Awesome. All right, Andy, thanks for joining me. It's
38:28
been a pleasure, Chris. You know, the first time we visited I think we just recognize we just share a lot we've got to find ways to continue to interact with each other via Real pleasure.
38:36
Yeah, definitely. Great. If you enjoyed today's episode, I would love a rating and review on your favorite podcast player. And for more information on how to build effective and efficient teams through your leadership visit leading for effect.com As always deserve it
Transcribed by https://otter.ai