Colleen's new company finally launches its first product.
Show Notes
Check out Colleen's new product, Refine: https://hammerstone.dev
Huge thanks to all of our listeners who’ve become Software Socialites and support our show! You can become a supporter for $10 a month or $100 a year at softwaresocial.dev/supporters.
Huge thanks to all of our listeners who’ve become Software Socialites and support our show! You can become a supporter for $10 a month or $100 a year at softwaresocial.dev/supporters.
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Creators & Guests
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Michele: Hey everyone, welcome
back to Software Social.
This week's episode is brought to
you by Refine, Colleen's product.
You should go to hammer stone.dev, if you
use Laravel Nova and buy it from Colleen.
It will help you build advanced
features in minutes with the drop
in feature builder for Laravel Nova.
I'm just reading from the homepage.
It is finally allowing you to
add the advanced filtering that
has lingered on your roadmap.
So goes your hammer stone.dev, and buy it,
I think it's a thousand dollars a year.
It is the best thousand dollars you will
spend today on filtering for Laravel Nova.
Go do it.
Um, by the way, if you, um, actually
want to sponsor Software Social,
you can go to software social.dev,
and click on the sponsors tab.
Uh, shout out to transistor.fm
for making it super simple to add
a sponsors page to our website.
Okay, so with those rather unusual
sponsor note announcements that
Colleen did not know about, uh, Refine.
How's it
Colleen: So I S I see that you
have, um, that was really funny.
So we're both live and I was
trying really hard not to laugh,
but I did not see that coming.
So I see that you've
seen our new homepage.
What do you think?
Michele: I do.
I see it.
I like it.
Colleen: Yeah.
Michele: so, I mean, so we like bought it.
We haven't installed it yet.
We will get to it.
I promise.
But, so it basically looks like,
sort of like meta base filtering
almost like if you used meta base.
Colleen: I used metabase
for, um, simple file upload.
Michele: it kind of reminds me of meta
base, but easier to use, because I
feel like every time I open metabase, I
get like a little bit overwhelmed with
like, oh, which database, my querying
from like, oh God, make sure it's not the
one that like gets overwhelmed easily.
Like I don't want to accidentally run
some query, that's going to be crazy.
And like, so this actually, this is like,
looks pretty, you know, pretty great.
Colleen: yeah, I'm a meta base
user, cause that's what I have
right now for simple file upload.
Hm.
The diff, I mean, there's a lot of
differences, but I'd say one of the
big things about Refine is with meta
base, when you go in, like, you know
how you can ask a simple question
or a complicated question to write
custom sequel, all of that in the
Refine products is extrapolated away.
So you would just log in and then
you would immediately see all of
your filters and be able to query
your data more intelligently.
And the developer who sets up
Refine, can allow or not allow you
to query based on certain things.
So like for example, I cannot
wait till I'm done with the rails
version of Refine so I can put
it on simple file upload because
metabase drives me a little bit nuts.
Cause sometimes when I'm trying to get
to, for me, like a really specific piece
of data, for example, with simple file
upload, I do this query where it's users
that have signed up after February 4th
because that's the day I started charging
for, you know, and I want to separate them
on by plan and I want to make sure the
app is still provisioned and what else?
And there's like other stuff
I do in this query and it
required me to write custom SQL.
And so with refine that's you wouldn't
have to write custom SQL for that.
You can just go in and define your
filters in that way, so you can query
based on all kinds of cool stuff.
Michele: Can You save a filter?
Colleen: You can.
Michele: Oh, cool.
Yeah, I don't see.
Yeah, I don't see that in the screenshot.
Colleen: you don't see
that in the screenshot?
Michele: Yeah.
Colleen: Well, this is our first.
Okay.
So let's talk about this site.
I mean, this is our first pass at this.
Michele: Yeah, this is, like a,
this is a big improvement over what
I feel like the previous website was
like, it was like a black background.
It did not have this cool stripes style.
Uh, like, what, what do we call this?
Where, where there's like
the diagonal shading?
Um,
Colleen: Oh, I see.
Michele: Yeah, no, like, it's, it's
definitely much more polished looking.
Colleen: Yeah, I, this, I mean, and
this is, this has been a week, right?
This is what we did in a week.
So this is definitely a first pass
of this site, but um, it's way better
than it was last time we talked.
Michele: Yeah.
Colleen: So here is what we think
the next step is, so we built this
site and if you click read the
docs, it will drop you to the docs.
And if you look in the docs and
the left-hand side, there's the
Nova, nova link, so you can see
how to install it with Nova.
So our next move, is w we have
not sent an email yet to tell
people, so we have 200 plus people.
I could actually get the number, but
it's something like that on a mailing
list and we have not emailed them yet.
So the goal this week is to actually email
people, telling them they can buy it.
Michele: So, and that list is
like everybody who's ever been
interested in hammer stone.
Why is it called hammer stone?
If the product is actually called Refine.
Colleen: I don't know.
That was before I joined the company.
Michele: Okay.
Okay.
So,
Colleen: that came from.
Michele: um, So but like those
people were, were in general,
interested in Hammerstone and stuff,
or were they interested in the
Refine for Laravel Nova package.
Colleen: So I don't actually know.
Let me see if I can
tell Aaron set this up.
So this might be partially like people
saw his talk and were just excited
about Aaron and they signed up.
Michele: Well, that would be good
because that was that those Laracon
Colleen: Laracon.
Right?
So
Michele: right?
Yeah.
So that would be, that would be promising.
Colleen: Yeah, so we have MailChimp set
up and we, um, yeah, so I don't have
great demographics on the people on this
mailing list, but I do think we have
them, like Laravel people, non-Laravel.
And so this would go out, we don't
know who's Nova and who's not Nova.
I don't think, but this, this is, I
think the next step is to tell the
people on our mailing list, they can
buy it and we haven't done that yet.
We are going to do that like tomorrow.
Michele: Yeah, I guess not everybody using
Laravel is going to be using nova, I mean,
like if you use, Laravel kind of make
sense to use Nova as your admin and like,
it's great, but Yeah, I guess that'll
be sorry, mitzi has just walked in.
So we had been hoping to do like a live
install and then for a variety of reasons
that That is not happening tonight.
Um, Hi.
Yeah,
Colleen: It's so late there
you're such a trooper.
Michelle, you got child to put to bed.
You've had a long day.
Michele: over.
COVID.
Yeah.
Colleen: You're getting over.
COVID
Michele: So Refine, we will
get it installed eventually.
Um, no, but I actually like
really want to use this,
Colleen: Yeah, I think
you're really gonna like it.
I really want to use it.
Like literally every rails project
I've used, I'm like super excited.
I mean, so our game plan, here's
what we were kind of thinking as
a game plan over the next week.
So we'd get an email out.
Okay.
Oh man.
And I want to talk to you about pricing.
So are we ready to talk about the
email we're going to send tomorrow or
do we have other stuff to cover here?
Michele: I have other questions,
but let's talk about the.
Colleen: So, like I said, we
haven't sent out an email yet.
We think we are ready to do that.
But one of the things Erin and I
were talking about was pricing.
And I had the thought that maybe we do
what we're charging now is a thousand
dollars a year for an annual license.
I feel like that's kind of
inexpensive for the quality of the.
And so maybe what we do is we do
like intro pricing, like for the
first two months or something, we
keep it to incentivize people to buy.
But also because I think a
thousand dollars is cheap.
So it'd be like, Hey, if you buy,
buy, you know, June 1st, like we'll
keep you out a thousand dollars.
Everyone else is going to be
on the new pricing structure,
whatever we decide that should be
Michele: How many people
have paid you so far.
okay.
So I will agree with you that
your pricing should probably
change, probably be higher.
I think at this point it
would be somewhat premature to
announce pricing changes, right?
You need to have some time to
learn about who's using it and why
they're using it and what is the
value they're getting out of it.
And, you know, like thinking back to
our episode with Ben, from Tupelo,
for example, like, you know, they
gave it, like, I think he said like
at least six months with their initial
pricing model and kind of knowing that
wasn't going to be the longterm thing.
And so, I do like the idea of being
like, Hey, like it's a thousand dollars
now it's going to go up in the future,
but you don't really know when that
is or like how it's going to change.
But like, I think, you know,
it's a thousand dollars a year
now, and if you know, you buy
it now you'll always pay that.
Right.
Um, which I guess actually that is
something that quite a few pricing,
people would, would quibble with me on is
whether you keep people always That same
price or you adjust their pricing plans.
Um, big topic of conversation.
I know there's a lot of very respected
people who have very different opinions
on that and probably disagree with mine.
I would say like, just sell a bunch
of this at a thousand dollars.
See how much you can sell.
See who's going to buy it right.
Get them to be like rabid fans of yours
that are telling everybody about it.
To the point where you're like, we
can't keep selling this thing at a
thousand dollars a month because it's
flying off the shelves and we've got
so much demand and so many customers,
and we can't possibly serve all of
this at a thousand or $1,000 a year.
Right.
Like, I don't know, get to
like 30 or like 50 customers.
And then, maybe, maybe think
about it again, but like at
this point, just focus on.
Colleen: Okay.
That sounds great.
So let's talk about selling.
So we're going to send an email out.
That's the first step.
I think what we're going to do,
so you and I talked about is we
shouldn't force people to talk
to us as an onboarding step.
So what we're in.
Michele: please.
God do not force people.
I have had two calls this week
that were like, call us for
demo or sign up, like, please.
Please let people sign up
without having to talk to you.
Like
Colleen: we
Michele: yes.
Colleen: So what we're thinking
of doing based on your, cause you
basically said that last week too,
you were like, no, no, no, no.
Don't make me have a call.
So I think what we're going to do is
send an email out tomorrow to our Laravel
people tell them it's available for
sale and they can optionally book an
onboarding call with Aaron and myself,
if they need help getting it installed.
And I think we're going to learn
so much with that like first wave.
Michele: Yeah, I would, I would do that.
Like, again, and this is something also
that, you know, respected people are
going to disagree with me on, right?
I know some people who, you know,
who forced the onboarding call
or a force, an off-boarding call.
Right.
Colleen: Yeah, that's the worst.
Those people are
Michele: Yeah.
Yeah.
We're not going to name any names for a
very well-known company that started doing
that after being beloved for a long time.
But like, you know, if people want
to do that, like they will do it, but
like, isn't it better if they, if it's
so easy to get started with, they can
just install it and start using it.
And then they tweet about how great it
was and how easy it was to get started.
Right?
You know, there's choices here and
how you structure the business and
how you structure the user experience.
Right?
The user experience is not just.
Screenshot, I'm looking at of
somebody having it installed in Nova.
The user user experience
is also how do I buy this?
What is my experience like to buy it?
How do I feel about.
that?
How do I feel about how quickly
I go from deciding I want it to
actually getting to use it, right?
Like those things are user experience too.
And so I feel like that is, uh, a pretty
important user experience decision.
And I mean, it's, it's just the
two, we got you guys, you don't have
an army of sales people, right?
Like you need people to like,
love this and talk about.
Colleen: Yeah, absolutely.
Okay.
And you know, our documents
are incredibly extensive.
So for the developer who just wants
to get rolling, like he, or she
should be able to do that you know,
on their own accord, as they desire.
Michele: I feel like that's something
you have learned from simple file upload.
Like remember, you were like talking
to people and at about what was holding
them back before they decided to use it.
And one of those key things.
Oh, well, like, you know, where's the
documentation, like, I just want to see
how it works or the, the code pen, right?
Like seeing it in action before
you decide to install it.
And so I feel like I can really see
that in this landing page that you
have seen the importance of, like, if
you're selling directly to developers
to make it really easy for them to
see what they are getting and how
complicated is going to be for them to.
Colleen: Yeah, it'll be interesting to
I'm I'm super excited to send this email
tomorrow because there'll be interesting,
to me, if people are going to ask for,
Hey, can I try it for so much, you know,
XYZ time and things like that, because it
is kind of a lot to ask someone to spend
that kind of money without really fully
comprehending the developer experience.
So I'm just really curious to see
what kind of responses we get.
Michele: Yeah.
I mean, but like, thinking back to
the episode with Ben, from Tupelo, I
might be remembering this entirely
incorrectly, but like there was one phase
of there is where like, You had to pay
like $500 for a one month trial of it.
And like people put it on their
personal credit cards cause they
really wanted to try it so much.
Right.
So like, I think it's okay if in the
beginning you have a lot of, people were
like, Hey, I would love to try this, but
it's just really out of my price range.
And be like, I can totally understand that
I'm going to save your name on a list.
I'll reach out when we have, you
know, pricing that might be a bit
more accessible for everybody.
But, Yeah.
I have this, just, you know, only
deal with the people who want it so
much that they're willing to pay you
a thousand dollars a year for whom
like, like you told me this thing
was a thousand dollars a year and I
was like, great, that sounds cheap.
how do I pay you?
Right.
You want the customers like me right now?
Colleen: Right,
Michele: And there's time and
space to have something that
brings everybody else on board.
Right.
There's also the open source version.
So.
I feel like if people can't pay
for it, they can just use the
open-source version and like, you know,
Colleen: Good
Michele: with their time instead.
Right?
Like that's, that's an option, right?
Like this is that's the
ultimate accessible.
Colleen: What was I going to say?
Yeah.
So how do I, we're going to send an email,
how else do I find customers, like you.
Michele: Oh, how do you
find customers like me?
That is a really interesting question.
I feel like, I mean, I guess
Aaron is, more in touch and like
the Laravel of a world, right?
Like this, like that is
definitely his people.
Um, I know he's, you know,
definitely like built a reputation
for himself in that world.
I mean, have you guys talked about
doing any like advertising in terms
of like, you know, or even just PR
like, have you tried to see if you
could get it mentioned on Laravel news
or Like, has it officially launched?
You're sending this email tomorrow,
Colleen: tomorrow.
I feel like we'll officially
launch when we tell people we
have not told people about it yet.
So tomorrow that's why I'm asking.
So I won't talk to you, you know,
we won't record again for a week
and in that week we want to start
taking steps to launch in quotes.
Right.
We're not, you know, to, really start
the business side of this, right?
Like the focus now needs to
be on selling this thing.
So.
Michele: I mean earned media
is always a good, good try.
So I feel like it's worth, at least
reaching out to Laravel news and S
Colleen: Oh, Laravel hill news.
Michele: Yeah,
Earned media.
right.
As opposed to like paid media.
Right.
So like earned media is, you know,
journalist writes about you or, you
know, a blog or something like that
as most like paid media ads, right?
Colleen: Right.
I don't think we're, we're
not gonna run ads in the first
Michele: Yeah.
Yeah.
But see, I mean, Laravel news or, you
know, I imagine Aaron is going to be
tweeting about it and you know, Maybe
he can get some clutch retweets on that.
Right.
Cause I mean, he's so good at Twitter
and he just like shows like, Hey, here's
this really cool thing that I built.
And then people like, whoa,
that is like really amazing.
He's just really good at that.
I think he describes it as
like nerd tweets, right.
That are just, you know
just like really cool stuff.
Not very articulative of me.
so Yeah.
Colleen: Okay.
Michele: Yeah.
I don't, and maybe that'll like fine,
but also like, I, mean, I'm sure there's
people listening who use Nova at
work, like your hand if you use Nova.
If you're currently walking your dog,
raising your hand, high five from me.
Um, right.
There's probably people listening who
used Nova, like either in their own
businesses or at work and also for whom
it is not a big lift to pay a thousand
dollars a year for something that's
going to make it much easier for them to
like slice and dice their, their users.
Right.
literally, this is not
a Halloween episode.
Colleen: Not literally.
Michele: literally.
Colleen: Um, yes, absolutely.
That sounds, that sounds great.
So I feel like in this next
week, like, this is exciting.
Like we're whatever you want to
call it soft launching tomorrow.
So
Michele: so
Colleen: like in this next week,
Michele: is actually
Colleen: tomorrow, April
Michele: four.
So this, this airs on Tuesday, right?
So this so this will
have been last Friday.
Colleen: That's right
Michele: we need to start talking about
the future as if it's in the past.
Colleen: think that's
Michele: This is getting
all back to the future here.
Colleen: oh my goodness.
Michele: At what point do you
and Aaron get out of a DeLorean?
That is your launch video.
Colleen: Yes.
Michele: Oh, man.
We're all thrilled.
Okay.
So I mean, I just, I seriously, this
is a huge improvement, even from
like what, like two weeks ago when I
slacked you and I was like, Um, oh, no.
It's cause you just told me, just
totally, as an aside that you had
this Nova thing when we were in
California and I was like, what?
You have a Nova thing that people
can buy and you didn't even tell me.
I was, I was mad, honestly, that
you had something that I could
buy that was relevant to me.
You know, I love that you
have simple file upload.
It's not super relevant to what
we do, so I haven't bought it,
but like, this is super relevant.
And I was like, you didn't even
tell me that I could give you money.
Like, um,
Colleen: It's so true.
Yeah.
Michele: So, and then I think from
that point, I like slacked you.
And I was like, so how do we buy this?
And like, basically got like a
direct, you know, one of those,
like, Stripe magic checkout links.
Um, And, but like, there was like
nothing on the Hammerstone website, so,
and that was like Two weeks ago, maybe.
So like, you guys are
really on fire right now.
like
Colleen: we're moving.
Michele: that you guys are moving.
Yeah.
Colleen: are, we are moving.
We are ready.
Like the time is now.
We are the next, honestly like this week,
we'll be big Michelle, because if we
have, okay, let me look up our account.
How do I MailChimp?
We have 277 people on our mailing list
segment ref wait, let me look
at the refined Laravel segment.
That's probably.
Oh, yeah, 399 contacts, 277
if I'm looking at this, right.
I'm kind of new to MailChimp
um, that are Laravel specific.
So, so I mean, if we got like, I
mean, I just feel like in this next
month, no week in this next week,
like, it'll be really interesting
to see what kind of response we get.
And honestly, like it's easy for people
to sign up for a mailing list, a whole
different thing to buy a product.
So.
Yeah.
I feel like a lot's going to happen
Michele: Have you set a sort of like
stepped goals for the, like, just
like for your own expectations of.
Colleen: yeah, we want to
sell five licenses a month.
Michele: Okay.
So if you send out this email and then a
week from now, you have sold five, then
that would, that would be a big success
Colleen: oh, that'd be cute.
I feel like that would be a huge success.
Like.
Michele: Cool.
Colleen: That would be huge.
Yes,
Michele: Okay, cool.
Yeah, I think.
You're you're moving.
I feel like you've been kind of
frustrated for a couple months
because like, things kind of weren't
happening as fast as you hoped for.
And you felt like you had done like your,
your part basically, like the rail side
was done and you were, you weren't like
twiddling your thumbs, but you almost were
like getting a little bit antsy, right?
It's like, well, what do.
I do.
now?
And now it's like, what you do
now is you grow into the next.
Phase of being a founder and, you
know, go like, go beyond your own,
you know, scope of expertise, right?
And use you to just said like, you're new
to MailChimp, but you're figuring it out.
You're querying.
It it's almost wish you could
use your own tool for that.
Right.
Um, right.
Like you're learning new
stuff, like who wrote the.
Colleen: We didn't we're
going to write it tomorrow.
Michele: You haven't
written the email yet.
Colleen: That's correct.
But yes.
To your point.
Yes, absolutely.
I think that's Growing into the next
stage of, of being a founder, which
is all this, all this stuff, right?
Like all of, all of it.
So
Michele: I wonder, what, what do
you feel like you have learned since
you launched simple file upload
like that you're bringing to this?
I, you know, I mentioned the thing
about the importance of the docs.
Colleen: I mean, honestly, it's
so many things, everything I have
done for simple file upload, has
prepared me for hammer stone.
And I think, you know, fundamentally,
I mean, it's just so many things,
but I fundamentally, I feel like
when you're first trying to launch a
business as a developer, the reason
so many people fail is because we
fundamentally do not understand this
concept of selling and marketing.
Like we just do not get and.
Over time, the more you do it,
like this stuff is really hard.
I think I love this article by Alex
Hillman about why so many people fail
and it's because he takes developers
who are at the top of their field
and that he asked these people to
learn an entirely new skillset and
internally you kind of freak out and
you're like, oh my gosh, how do I beat?
I think it's called how to begin
again or something like that.
Like how do you become a beginner again?
And all of these things
like that are so hard.
Like I'm a developer.
I can make anything, but ask me to
give me like a computer and say, build
a landing page like two years ago.
That was just like, Hmm, what
do I put on a landing page?
Like I literally do not know.
Right.
Stuff like that.
So you'd have this, or at least
I would have this like fear, for
example, of a blank page, no designer.
That's like the scariest thing ever.
And so I think those kinds of
hurdles, which theoretically, like
technically speaking, building
a landing page is really easy.
Right?
I know how to build what, like, like
the technical, the code is like the
easiest thing ever, but like, thinking
about what do you actually put on it?
What do you say?
Do you use images?
What kind of images do you use videos?
All of that is really hard.
Michele: I think I need to dig up this
article because I definitely feel that
way about my Danish language classes.
I relate very hard to this.
Like I remember like being when I
started the classes last I guess
the end of last summer and like, I
couldn't even, I think I had write
some like basic email inviting someone
to a party and I was like, oh my God,
I speak several other languages and I'm
literally an author in my own language.
And I can't like say this really.
Like, I can't even interact with
like a grocery store cashier
or like write an email, and it.
was like his tone.
It was like, uh, it was like this
like kind of personal, crisis of
like you're very advanced in one area.
And then going to something where you're
just, kind of completely standing in the
wilderness or less, and feeling like you
have no map and no idea how to get out.
Right?
It's so like, personally disorienting
and for you, like, I think, you know,
this is one of the reasons why it's so
helpful to have a side project, even
if it doesn't lead to anything, if you
want to be a felt like it doesn't have
to be your forever business, right.
Or even like a business becomes a
full-time thing, because you got
to go through not only that sort of
personal crisis side of this, right?
With something that, that effectively,
like, didn't matter as much, right?
Like it still matters.
It's still running.
You still have customers, but like
you're, you're really all in on Refine.
And I feel like you wouldn't have
same level of composure and kind of
clarity about it had you not gone
through not only that like psychological
experience, but also like, I remember
when you made simple file upload, like
you were done with the actual product
months before somebody could buy it.
Cause then you were like, oh shoot,
I got to build all this stuff users,
yeah, I guess like building a way for
someone to make a user account and
like reset their password is totally
different from how they actually
use the, the thing, like the tool.
And so, like, I think you had, uh, a
certain amount of perspective this
time and of course, you know, still,
growth to be had as, as we all do.
Right.
Um, but, but I think it was, I think it
was valuable for you to like go through
that beginning again, thing before this.
Colleen: oh, incredibly.
I think the biggest difference between
when I launched simple file upload and
launching Refine or hammer stone, the
products called refine the businesses
hammer stone is I feel like I know what
to do now and that I don't have all the
answers, but I have, I have ideas like
before, when you start for the first
time you try to launch a business,
you literally have no idea what to do.
Like, like you're just
like, what the heck?
And now I have, I feel
like I know what to do.
I feel like I have all these ideas.
I feel like, you know,
I don't feel so lost.
Of course I, you know, love to talk to
people who have more experience that
can give me other ideas, but mostly it
feels intimidating because it's like,
okay, we're going to try this thing.
If this doesn't work, we're
going to try this other thing.
Like I have a whole
laundry list of, of ideas.
Michele: You know, you need to
do marketing now and you kind
of, eat like, you know what some
of the things you can do, right?
Like, you know, you know, you need to
send an email tomorrow, which is actually
last Friday, hashtag back to the future.
Right.
you know, you need to send that
email and like, you know, we're
talking about like different types
of media and like, for it, you know,
trying to get people to cover it.
And like, is easier, I think,
to, to like riff on those ideas.
And you at least have a place to start
with versus for simple file upload.
It was where do I go?
Like, Hmm, what, what is here?
It was almost like you were in like
Janet's void from the good place.
I feel like I've mentioned Janet's
void from the good place before.
But, and you were just kind of just
like standing there, like in what
felt like nothing and everything at
the same time, which is very scary.
Colleen: uh, yeah, so I
think that it's been great.
I mean, it has unlocked so many
opportunities for me and also just
having so much more confidence.
Just knowing different things you can do.
Like you said, just, just
having the knowledge of, okay,
what does this look like?
What does marketing look like?
I don't know, but we can figure it out.
Michele: You know, you can figure
it out at this point versus
before you didn't necessarily
know that you could figure it out.
Colleen: Totally.
Michele: Well, I guess I
should let you get back to
work and, uh, write that email.
Oh, we know no it's
launching Thursday, right?
No tomorrow, is not Friday.
Colleen: Correct.
You do have your days of the week wrong.
I just didn't correct you because
I know it's really late there.
That's
Michele: my brain is not working.
Like I can.
Yeah.
Um, okay.
I'll let you get back
to work for your launch.
Everybody go to hammer stone.dev,
if you use Laravel Nova, buy it.
.If you don't use Laravel Nova.
Nova.
Please tweet about it.
Um, help Colleen out here.
And also if you want to sponsor
this podcast, go to your software
social, software social.dev/sponsor.
And I should, I should honestly go to
bed because I'm recovering from COVID.
My brain is not working.
I sound like a frog
this podcast, ends now.
Hey everyone, um a little
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