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Stories of veteran service and sacrifice straight from the people driving today’s most important veterans causes and veterans organizations around the world. The show shines a spotlight on their inspiring projects making a real difference for veterans and their families, and along the way we'll hear the stories that drive them to do their best every day as they work to support veterans and their memory.
00:00:06:01 - 00:00:34:21
Speaker 1
Hey, it's Matthew Cudmore, and welcome to a special Memorial Day edition of Story Behind the Stone, recorded live from the Military Women's Memorial at Arlington National Cemetery. Today we're facing a tough question. What if the biggest threat to veterans heritage isn't time, but silence? In this special live episode, we're featuring speakers, panelists, and projects from the Library of Congress, massive Veterans History Project, the digital mapping of Arlington National Cemetery, and the year round programs rolled out nationwide by Wreaths Across America.
00:00:34:23 - 00:01:00:00
Speaker 1
Tune in for our fireside chat with AJ Orlikoff of the Historic Congressional Cemetery in Washington, DC, who challenges us to radically reimagine how we can reactivate history for a modern audience. And to close out the episode. Get an exclusive update on the upcoming Global War on Terrorism Memorial to be built on the National Mall. To kick things off, here is Army veteran Kristin Sargent for her opening remarks on why connection still matters.
00:01:00:02 - 00:01:11:10
Speaker 1
Here is the future of veterans heritage on story behind the Stone. Thank you for tuning in.
00:01:11:12 - 00:01:29:15
Speaker 1
It's rare that you run into someone with a level of kindness and introspection that you do with Kristin, and it's a real honor to have her here today. So her career has been defined by service leadership and helping to modernize the military through transformative technology. Kristin, I want to welcome you to the stage and thank you so much for doing these.
00:01:29:15 - 00:01:36:06
Speaker 1
Opening remarks.
00:01:36:08 - 00:02:03:21
Speaker 2
So in early October 2006, I had just transitioned out of my last air defense artillery assignment, and I had become a new, proud military spouse. My husband was deployed to Afghanistan with the 10th Mountain Division, and he was about seven months into his deployment when I received a phone call. Hey, I'm going out. I'll be with Doug.
00:02:03:23 - 00:02:25:02
Speaker 2
It's going to take a minute, but don't worry. I'll call you when I get back. Okay. No worries. This had been part of the plan. My husband was always supposed to take over Bravo company from Captain Doug Sloan, who was his fellow commander. And part of that process was going through a change of command ceremony, so I knew what was happening.
00:02:25:04 - 00:03:02:01
Speaker 2
This was no surprise. On October 31st, 2006, I received a very different phone call. Hey, it's Susan from the Family Readiness Group. There's been an incident. Doug is dead. Is my husband okay? You would have received a very different call if he wasn't. A week later, I got another phone call. Hey. It's me. I'm in command, and I'm okay.
00:03:02:03 - 00:03:27:15
Speaker 2
When we hung up the phone, I knew our lives had changed forever. Now, several years later, my husband and I were stationed in Virginia. He was at the Pentagon. I was fortunate enough. I had a great job at a big systems integrator, and life was grant and I had the chance to reconnect with an old college friend, Nick Miller.
00:03:27:16 - 00:03:57:04
Speaker 2
Nick still attributes me with passing physics and freshman year. But Nick was still active duty, and he had just taken over an immense responsibility at Arlington Cemetery, helping to modernize record keeping and the experience for visitors visiting the cemetery. And he was so excited about the mission and about the opportunity. And then a couple of years after that, Nick and I were with his fabulous wife at Arlington Cemetery yet again.
00:03:57:09 - 00:04:26:18
Speaker 2
Only this time we were a part of the volunteer community with reuse across America. And I remember as the three of us were at the cemetery, every time we placed a wreath around one of the gravestones. It was like we were hugging that fallen member. It was like we were hugging Doug. And then this brings me to just two weeks ago, when I had the chance to get on the phone with Ryan and Matt and the memory anchor team, and we were talking about today and today's event.
00:04:26:20 - 00:04:50:06
Speaker 2
And they were so excited to show me some of the advancements at their platform and how they could help Arlington Cemetery come to life. And so, without hesitation, I immediately said, can you pull up Doug Sloan? And sure enough, there he was on the screen. I could see Doug's service history. All of his medals, all of his commendations.
00:04:50:08 - 00:05:26:01
Speaker 2
And even more meaningfully, I could map out a path to visit his grave in a cemetery. Through all of the different graves of the fallen service members. So I am just one person in this room, and I have shared with you only one thread from the fabric of my life that connects us to this time and space. From being a military spouse to 10th Mountain Division, to Afghanistan, to Arlington Cemetery, to Wreaths Across America and to memory anchor and to Doug.
00:05:26:03 - 00:05:59:21
Speaker 2
And so what I think is so incredible is how many connections and how much connectedness this room represents, because really, we're far much more than technology companies or nonprofit organizations or government organizations. What we really are today and always are connection agents, not AI agents. We are connection agents. And it's with that connection that we have the power to make the world a better place each and every day.
00:05:59:22 - 00:06:26:09
Speaker 2
And so my hope for us today, my mission, should you choose to accept it, is that you share your connections with old and new friends alike, that you feel the connectedness that transcends time and space and helps us really remember those who have fallen. And that you'll remember that each of us has the power to reach, to connect and to inspire us.
00:06:26:11 - 00:06:42:14
Speaker 2
Just like Doug. So thank you so much. Have a beautiful day. I'm so honored to be here. And with that, I'll turn it over to Ryan.
00:06:42:16 - 00:07:06:21
Speaker 1
Kristin, thank you so much. That was, That was beautiful. And it is really, truly about connection. And I think that's the important thing. And one of the themes that will have to touch on is how connection is cultivated through technology, but and also runs the risk of disconnecting and the balance between that. So I'm co-founder with Matthew Cudmore of Memory Anchor.
00:07:06:23 - 00:07:30:07
Speaker 1
It's kind of an interesting field to get into. Is it a military commemoration and and the idea of memory or just goes back to my own service? I served for about a decade as a combat engineer and in that time, you know, I come from a military history of my family. It wasn't lost on me. The importance and reverence that was kind of passed down to remember those who had given their lives.
00:07:30:09 - 00:07:51:15
Speaker 1
I didn't deployed to Afghanistan myself, but I have many friends who did, some who didn't come back as a result in 2017. I had an opportunity to go overseas, to France, to a World War one battle. They're celebrating the 100th anniversary of this battle. And to do something special for it, I had a flute made out of this wood from that actual battlefield.
00:07:51:15 - 00:08:13:22
Speaker 1
And 100 years later, this wood would come back, and I. I played amazing Grace, everywhere. From Omaha Beach out, through Juno into France, Belgium and Holland. And then for that anniversary. But it was actually in Holland. I was beside a World War Two vet who was on on our tour, and he asked me to play at his brother's grave, and it was his second time being there.
00:08:14:00 - 00:08:37:16
Speaker 1
And I spoke with him about it. I played the flute and I talked to him about his brother, and it just really struck me there as I'm looking over the cemetery with 3000 of our war dead in there, that, you know, I'm reflecting on the guys we lost in Afghanistan, the stories, the lives, the aspirations that they had, just the depth of those people.
00:08:37:18 - 00:09:06:16
Speaker 1
This Willie McGregor and his brother John McGregor, the depth of who he was and how it's not captured on a headstone. And this is where the idea of memory anchor came, is how do we connect people empathetically to the lives of these, these individuals, because there's so much more than the name on a headstone. We sit in a cemetery, and behind us are almost 400,000 headstones of people who are dedicated to service, dedicated to a better future for everyone.
00:09:06:18 - 00:09:30:23
Speaker 1
And it's something that needs to be remembered because there is so much more than just a name like Doug. And thank you for sharing that story. This is really what memory has been about, is creating connection. And how do we do that in a meaningful and ethical way? And our panel today is really talking about the future of veterans heritage and looking at at the different work.
00:09:31:01 - 00:09:50:00
Speaker 1
There's our wonderful panelists who will introduce here in a second. But, you know, it's really looking at, you know, the work and like, how do we keep this connection? How do we use technology to do that but also balance at two. And so we have three panelists here today. And I'm going to introduce our panelists when I introduce you.
00:09:50:00 - 00:10:22:09
Speaker 1
Please feel free to come. Monica is the director of the Library of Congress Veterans History Project and oversees the largest oral history archives in American history. And this has collected over 120,000 stories. Yesterday we had the opportunity to go to the gala and it was absolutely amazing. It was celebrating the 25th anniversary. And what really stood out to me is there is these mind blowing artifacts, and there's written notes from P.O.W. on soup can labels.
00:10:22:10 - 00:10:46:05
Speaker 1
Each one was so captivating, but what actually stood out to me more was the volunteers that stood behind it, and just how connected they were to the story itself. And I talked to many, many of these individuals. And what really stood out to me is that I asked them, like, what's the highlight of what you do? Each one of them said the opportunity to sit with a veteran and just witness and hear their story.
00:10:46:07 - 00:10:57:20
Speaker 1
And Monica, you just have to be so proud of your team. So, Monica, I'm going to invite you up. Please give her a round of applause.
00:10:57:22 - 00:11:00:07
Speaker 1
Thank you so much for being here to be here.
00:11:00:08 - 00:11:00:23
Speaker 3
Yeah.
00:11:01:01 - 00:11:29:01
Speaker 1
Our next, panelist is Nick Miller. So Nick is, the CEO of a Pellucid Networks and the former CEO of Arlington National Cemetery and the former advisory council of Arlington National Cemetery. And you heard Kristen talk a little bit about some of the work he did and monitor modernizing the records. To this day, he laid a foundation for what is possible with this technology.
00:11:29:07 - 00:11:57:02
Speaker 1
I like when I was standing in that cemetery and I'm like, how do we how do we commemorate these soldiers? We got to do a different Nick ten years ago. Figured that out, and he's been doing that. He has laid the foundation and is truly a pioneer when it comes to applying this technology in a meaningful way. And he has helped millions of people get to the headstones, whether that's here in Arlington and bring those stories, in that meaningful and empathetic way that we were talking about.
00:11:57:02 - 00:12:05:00
Speaker 1
So I want to welcome Nick up to the stage. There you are. I was looking for you.
00:12:05:02 - 00:12:41:04
Speaker 1
That's awesome. Okay. And for Amber Caron, she's the director of communications for Wreaths Across America, and she's been with them for 19 years. There was a time where Wreaths was laying 5000 wreath alone last year, 3.1 million. And can you imagine the infrastructure and the mobilization of volunteers in order to get that done? We've been talking for a couple of years now, and one thing that really sticks out to me and I think is so important about wreaths work is and I was talking to Edward earlier.
00:12:41:05 - 00:13:02:05
Speaker 1
It's about witnessing. It is an experience that when we witness someone who's given their lives or someone who knows someone who has, or even a soldier themself. I used to do, addiction counseling. And when I worked with people with trauma, sometimes the most valuable thing we could do wasn't to fix anything, but just to simply witness.
00:13:02:07 - 00:13:25:14
Speaker 1
You introduced me to some Goldstar mothers, yesterday, and I was. I was trying to hold it together because I just can't imagine what that's like as a parent myself. You do so much more than just wreath laying, which is so important because it's a ritual that happens every year and it remains in our consciousness all across America, because people are doing that every year.
00:13:25:19 - 00:13:36:17
Speaker 1
It's a tradition. You are witnessing and healing in the work you do. So please, a round of applause.
00:13:36:19 - 00:13:56:23
Speaker 1
Amber, thank you so much again for being here. Okay. I want to hear from each of you. You're leading these different initiatives nationwide. Initiatives. You started these things. You continue to do these things. What is that inspiration. What is that why that has helped you to continue to do what you do? We'll start it here with you, Monica, if you like.
00:13:57:01 - 00:14:21:18
Speaker 3
Good afternoon. I'm so happy to be here with you. And I think the why for me is that moment you're talking about that I think we've all witnessed when the veteran that we're working with understands that what they have to share is deeply important to the person who has stopped with this seriousness of purpose to listen to them, and they share what they want to share.
00:14:21:20 - 00:14:50:13
Speaker 3
And then, sorry, it's a little bit of a long answer. The second part of that is because what we do is try to connect individuals who have served with those who have not served. The whole point behind the legislation was to get that conversation going. So the ripple effect goes out from there. And so I'm really fortunate at this point where at 25 years, when they started talking about the project, they were talking about it being a living history.
00:14:50:15 - 00:15:18:09
Speaker 3
And what they meant was, I talk to you and you're alive, and now we have it, and you're like a book on the shelf. Only that's not how it works at the Library of Congress. We serve those collections to researchers and users, to people making choreography, to people doing documentaries, to members of Congress who are looking for a way to connect with their constituents, to family members who are trying to learn more about a fallen family member that they didn't know.
00:15:18:09 - 00:15:54:18
Speaker 3
And they can go and find someone who lived a similar experience. So the why, for me are all those moments and I it's changes every year. And this year for me, it's that understanding that it's no longer a living collection because you're alive and we have your story, but because even when you pass away and we have your story for generations to come, people are going to be using that story to understand, to inform, to inspire, to connect, to grow.
00:15:54:20 - 00:16:15:13
Speaker 3
And then when that happens, because I'm lucky to be at the Library of Congress, that thing that gets made also comes to the Library of Congress and then also informs and also inspires. And it's this incredible cycle that's like, you know, you have the sun. And I always thought the sun was there, and then the planets went around it.
00:16:15:13 - 00:16:31:14
Speaker 3
And I just recently learned, know the sun is going like this. And the planets, it's like a spiral moving through space. And that's what's happening with these stories. They're at the Library of Congress, spiraling, moving through space. So that's my way.
00:16:31:16 - 00:16:34:18
Speaker 1
Beautiful. Thank you so much, Nick.
00:16:34:20 - 00:16:54:14
Speaker 4
Yeah. First, thanks for having me. Yeah. When I think about my why, I, you know, I go back to, early days in office or leadership. And one of the things I loved about the the Army is it produces great leaders. Right. And, it was about service to nation. But then at the end of the cadet creed and something that we always said was, I will never leave a fallen comrade.
00:16:54:14 - 00:17:31:16
Speaker 4
Right. And and I think commemoration is kind of that tribute of how you don't leave a fallen comrade. And so as a career technologist. Right. I've always been in the technology field. You know, my job was to provide technology to ensure we don't create fallen comrades. But then when I was assigned to Arlington Cemetery and we had this great challenge of how to modernize the cemetery and how to digitize it, that, misconduct set, you know, it was all about this idea of, like, we owe it to the people who have given their life to hold ourselves to a high standard as leaders.
00:17:31:18 - 00:17:50:10
Speaker 4
And then I think you take it the next step to. And then how do we inspire that next generation to serve? Because this nation is great. I'm living proof. I have two girls. Everything about the life we have here is great. And, it is not free and it does not self sustain. It sustains because we vote to self sustain it.
00:17:50:12 - 00:17:54:17
Speaker 4
And one way to self sustain it is by teaching that next generation.
00:17:54:19 - 00:17:55:15
Speaker 1
Thank you Nick.
00:17:55:17 - 00:18:24:17
Speaker 2
Well said Nick, because that's exactly it for for me as well is the teaching the next generation. And I've had the honor over the last almost 20 years to meet so many Gold Star families. And I'll be honest that before I started my work at Race Across America, I did not know what that meant. I did not grow up in a military family, didn't know those terms, and I now consider many Gold Star families to be some of my dearest friends and extensions of my family.
00:18:24:19 - 00:18:45:16
Speaker 2
Over the years, I've had the privilege of standing in line, talking to strangers and learning their story of their loved ones who are laid to rest and learning about their lives. And I think for me, as we continue to move forward, we want to focus on people's lives. Why did you choose to serve? You know, what baseball team did you play for?
00:18:45:17 - 00:19:08:18
Speaker 2
You know, what did you do growing up that that encouraged you to continue to persevere for this country's freedom and to put on our nation's uniform? I don't want to hear about their deaths, but being able to come into cemeteries, we have the opportunity to take children by the hand and to basically teach them about our nation's history in a very interactive, live way.
00:19:08:20 - 00:19:35:07
Speaker 2
And if that encourages somebody to then want to interview a veteran and then share their story, I know that that happens. I know we've had firsthand accounts of we have, you know, volunteer location coordinators that are teenagers who have interviewed veterans for our Service Learning Project, who we've encouraged to submit to the Veterans History Project. It's important for people of all ages, but kids especially, who might be so removed from war.
00:19:35:08 - 00:20:00:02
Speaker 2
I have a 17 year old, a 19 year old. They were not born when 9/11 happened. They're very removed, even though with what I do, with what war means and what it means to serve this country as many of their, their friends are. So I think we have these opportunities now to introduce youth to our service members through these different programs.
00:20:00:02 - 00:20:06:06
Speaker 2
And if we can get them in the cemetery and not be afraid to go into a cemetery, then that's a win on my in my mind.
00:20:06:11 - 00:20:27:06
Speaker 1
And I love hearing that because as you see that why what we're hearing is again, about it's that connection. It's that remembrance. It's not leaving that person behind. And there's a there's a continuance to that. And I think we're living in a phenomenal time, like the world we're in right now is vastly different than it was five years ago, to 20 years ago.
00:20:27:08 - 00:20:48:14
Speaker 1
And it not with technology becomes opportunity and balance. As we were saying before I was thinking, what is the opportunity though? Currently, when we look at using technology in the work that you're doing or for seeing in veterans heritage and commemoration, and I'll leave that to anybody who feels like they want to.
00:20:48:14 - 00:21:09:20
Speaker 4
Tackle it first. So I'll give you a couple of thoughts on this. I've always viewed technologies and enhancer to the can. You mean human connection? Right. And, you know, it's hard to kind of put a ROI on that in that sense. But, to kind of recent interactions have helped me think of how you can think about that.
00:21:09:22 - 00:21:36:18
Speaker 4
The first I actually was posted on LinkedIn that I was at West Point, and one of my colleagues slapped me because we were on slack and said, my grandfather's buried there. Can you grab a photo of his headstone? And I said, well, yes. So we're not going quite yet. I'll be there later today, but you can actually take a look at his headstone online, because the West Point Cemetery is now using the same technology that Arlington Cemetery is using.
00:21:36:20 - 00:21:57:11
Speaker 4
She she wrote back, my mother and I are crying. Right. And so, I mean, if you if you think technology doesn't have the power to create enhanced views, and then augment the experience in ways we never imagined, like, that's the upside. I think that you're trying to get to, the other one actually was, you know, I'm a religious person, but I don't speak.
00:21:57:11 - 00:22:17:21
Speaker 4
But I was down in, North Carolina, and I just moved there. We just moved our family out of Virginia. It was. It was a little bit tumultuous, right? Big change for the first time. And I had dropped my my, car off at the Mazda dealership. And the old man who drives the car from the Mazda dealership to to your house, he says, where'd you come from?
00:22:17:23 - 00:22:44:22
Speaker 4
He said, Arlington, Virginia. He said, oh, I was just the cemetery. My is buried there. They have this great app that took us right, right to my uncle's gravesite. I was like, that's so cool. And, and and again, it's like, you really are touching people. And what pulls it all together is, you know, when we first stood up, the cemetery, we got called from Gold Star Mothers and they were saying, you know, Mr. Hillary, my son Joshua still doesn't have a headstone.
00:22:45:00 - 00:23:05:20
Speaker 4
And and we were dealing with that rawness and that memory of and we were able to, a year later, send a photo of a custom marker that her son was on. And she you could just hear it in her voice. Thank you for honoring my son's memory. Thank you for delivering. And and you know, it's never going to be closure, but it's it's healing.
00:23:05:20 - 00:23:14:18
Speaker 4
It's another step in the journey. And so it's just I think there's so much upside to technology if we use it in the right way. And hopefully those three stories helped share a little bit of how.
00:23:14:20 - 00:23:34:03
Speaker 2
Well, and I will tell you that I use an explorer every single time that I come here because people ask us, can you take a photo with the wreath? And then you spend the whole day going on ANC explorer, finding the and making the path to find it. And it matters to people. It truly matters to people. I've had people that for ten years.
00:23:34:03 - 00:23:49:00
Speaker 2
I send them their loved ones picture every single year and every year they say, you just made my holiday. It matters. And because they can't be there. So if it's the opportunity to bring somebody virtually who can't physically come, it's important.
00:23:49:02 - 00:24:22:18
Speaker 3
I have two points to attach to what you said in my family, on my mother's side, an Irish branch had three generations of service in the American army and and an Irish cousin was here a couple of years ago. And I didn't realize that one of our family members was at Arlington and he came. I wasn't in town, and he and his wife and his daughter went and took a picture and sent me the picture, and I was somewhere else in the world, and I didn't even know I know them, but I didn't know that.
00:24:22:18 - 00:24:48:16
Speaker 3
And so I was connected to my history in a new way, and also was quite choked up, even though I never knew this individual. I think to technology I you're getting to this I think which is both sides of the coin. Right. So I'm going to talk about the good side for this. I think, one thing that we have witnessed when the Veterans History Project was started 25 years ago, we called it cyber casting.
00:24:48:16 - 00:25:11:15
Speaker 3
We didn't even call it web casting. I feel like such an ancient person to even say that in this room, you know, there was all this excitement at the Library of Congress. We're on the cutting edge or cyber casting this. And it's true. We were the push at the time was so huge. Get the stories, get the photographs, get the letters, get the things, get them and get them up really, really fast.
00:25:11:17 - 00:25:35:12
Speaker 3
Now we're we're looking at that. But before we get to that part of it, many years ago, I've been with the project for about 20 years. I've been the director for about for many years ago, when I was really new, I happened to be sitting at our reference desk, and I picked up a phone call from a woman who was crying, and she wanted to know so much information about this one collection.
00:25:35:12 - 00:25:58:03
Speaker 3
And I didn't know the collection. I think at the time we had something like 80,000 collections. So I'm asking her questions and I'm listening. I'm witnessing we go through and I'm showing her on the phone and I'm literally on the phone. I'm showing her by verbally how to get through the website. You know, this newfangled thing and how to navigate to figure out what the deal is with this collection.
00:25:58:03 - 00:26:29:23
Speaker 3
And it turns out, as I'm digging deeper and deeper, it's a collection of drawings and images that a veteran chunk of other veterans. And she was encountering the face of her grandfather, kind of for the first time through this collection. And then through the collection, she was encountering his experience because she suddenly had a raft of names of people that he served with and so she could go and start to piece together more about him than she'd ever known.
00:26:30:01 - 00:26:55:22
Speaker 3
And I think that's really back when they started the project, the legislation was so prescient. They talk about successor technologies. They didn't know 25 years ago what we were going to be dealing with today. But that was so prescient, and we've all had the chance to experience that power. And it really moves the story forward, and it brings it to where we are today, and it gives us hope for where it will be for tomorrow.
00:26:56:00 - 00:26:57:08
Speaker 3
And there's more to that story.
00:26:57:12 - 00:27:16:22
Speaker 4
Just add one thing to kind of help frame technology. I think another way to think about this is what happens when there isn't technology and a couple early on, we recorded, you know, all the phone calls and transcribed what they were said. We had a classic call center model that, you know, are very popular and one of the calls was in frustration.
00:27:17:00 - 00:27:35:18
Speaker 4
I visited the cemetery for the first time, and I was unable to find my loved one. Right. And so that's a lost experience that you couldn't serve because of the absence of technology. And so I think as you think about how technology fits in on the opportunity side, it's also what are all the experiences that are lost. Right.
00:27:35:20 - 00:27:54:23
Speaker 4
All right. Well person was talking. I looked up Doug Sloan and I saw his headstone and I learned about him. Right. And so like, these are things that people can make connection in ways that not everybody does. But I think there's a huge power to augment, and, and really serve more people and bring them in.
00:27:54:23 - 00:28:17:06
Speaker 1
So, yeah, I like the word augment. And I think this is where we kind of get into the conversation of balance, right? And especially in a cemetery, which is a very hollow space. So we need we need to honor deeply. And we don't want people to be lost in their phone. And when we say augment is like, how do we add to it without taking from it?
00:28:17:08 - 00:28:38:07
Speaker 1
My co-founder Matt sent me an app the other day, and it's like a selfie with Nikola Tesla. And they have this, this digital representation of this long dead historical figure and does a selfie. And he's kind of given duck lips. And it's just and it leaves me with that question is just because we can doesn't mean we should.
00:28:38:09 - 00:28:55:13
Speaker 1
And we're in this the space where technology is moving so fast, we can do so much with it. So the question is, is what do we do with it? And how do we know the boundaries on that? Like what's the guiding post. And I'm just curious on your thoughts on this.
00:28:55:15 - 00:29:17:08
Speaker 2
I'm thinking about my dad who's a Vietnam veteran. He doesn't do technology. That's his line. And that's pretty much across the board. I think when you think about balance, you also have to think about there are a lot of people generationally who are scared of technology or just don't understand it or don't know how to use it or not.
00:29:17:10 - 00:29:50:23
Speaker 2
IPhone users are not, you know, they're not comfortable doing QR codes. And as we move forward, it's important to have a balance of options, right? You got to have those options because the Vietnam veteran is not going to scan the QR code because my dad's jitterbug doesn't have a camera. In fact, it's real, real thing. But at the same time, he still wants to go and walk along the wall and write down names and maybe go home and look at his iPad and look those up at his own time.
00:29:51:01 - 00:30:17:19
Speaker 2
So it's it's trying to strike the balance because, you know, as we move forward, it's important to appeal to youth. Right. And those people who are looking for the technological answer and access, you know, access like my children who never leave a room without an AirPod in and a phone in front of them to their grandfather who is like, put your phone away and let's communicate with each other directly.
00:30:17:21 - 00:30:50:17
Speaker 2
And that's a pretty broad spectrum. So how do you, you know, approach that? And I don't have an answer necessarily. We just try to have as many options as possible because you're right. When we're going into any location, I mean, whether there's six headstones or 300,000 headstones, it's a place of reverence. It's a place where people should have the opportunity to, you know, celebrate their loved ones, but also have a moment of peace and tranquility and not feel like they're necessarily have cameras all around them and people pulling out their phones.
00:30:50:17 - 00:31:08:12
Speaker 2
So I don't know, have an answer for that. But I think options are important piece of that. That's why we have our radio station where we can do phone interviews with, you know, Vietnam veterans who feel a little bit more comfortable on the phone maybe, than doing a zoom call, things like that. So just trying to meet people where they are.
00:31:08:17 - 00:31:41:01
Speaker 3
I think I would add to that. Back to Kristen's point about connectivity and your point about, you know, connecting the future to the past. The other thing that technology offers us is how to be in the same place at the same time. I mean, we've done workshops together to make sure that educational facilities and students have the access to both our collections and our participation, and we could do that because the technology enabled us to be in the same place in the same time in that way.
00:31:41:01 - 00:32:06:09
Speaker 3
So I think that's an important aspect to technology. To to your point is the the connection. And I think in terms of safeguarding, for us, it's at the Veterans History Project, one of the things that distinguishes some of the work that we do from some we were talking earlier today about adjacent work across the field. And one thing that is a big part in the home of copyright is that the veterans keep their copyright.
00:32:06:11 - 00:32:37:09
Speaker 3
And so now we're getting all this stuff out there, 120, almost 123,000 individual stories and growing. Right. We're we're getting them in a couple 100 a month. So how do we make sure that that idea of getting this story out there also, offer some safeguards for the veterans and the veterans family. And I think that's a tricky part of all of this, too, is there's many different layers of technology, there's augmenting, there's providing access, there's providing connectivity.
00:32:37:10 - 00:32:59:18
Speaker 3
And how do we I love what you were talking about, the ethics and the morality of that. How do we carefully set up guardrails so that veterans retain that autonomy and that agency over their voice, that we want them to start with, whether they're with us when they contribute their oral history or if it's a posthumous collection, and for their family members to be able to retain that.
00:32:59:18 - 00:33:04:15
Speaker 3
So I think that's an interesting question, too, about technology and where that can help us.
00:33:04:17 - 00:33:25:08
Speaker 4
I look at technology and kind of the lens of when it starts to detract, right. When might use technology, maybe in a cemetery starts to detract from your experience. Right. And my use of technology starts to detract from our connection. Right. And you see that a lot. And so, but I think in the space of remembrance.
00:33:25:08 - 00:33:50:11
Speaker 4
Right. Especially if you, if you put your, you know, singular use case of being in the cemetery, it's very manageable because of the way society has come in. I think it's when you start to disconnect or disassociate that technology can be an obstacle. But I'm generally very bullish on the idea that technology has moved us forward, and this helped tell a richer and more fulsome story and build a better society that lifts people up.
00:33:50:11 - 00:33:54:18
Speaker 4
And so we should embrace that in this mission of kind of connecting people as well.
00:33:54:20 - 00:34:16:01
Speaker 1
I love this conversation because I think anybody that says AI right now, and our eyes tend to roll in the back of the head because that's all we hear. But it plays a massive role. And for example, there is a group. They've taken the stories like the oral history of many bomber pilots, and they've been able to put this through this large language model.
00:34:16:03 - 00:34:26:15
Speaker 1
It's not pretending to be one of them, but it's allowing people to talk and it's pulling the information from that. What are your thoughts on that? And when would have become perhaps problematic?
00:34:26:20 - 00:35:01:02
Speaker 3
One of the things that's so important about the role at the Library of Congress plays as your library, as our nation's library is, you can go there and know that you are getting unmediated, authentic primary source material and you are getting to the root of it. I think that's a really great thing because to your point, it creates this bridge for people to be able to interact with something, in their time and in their space.
00:35:01:02 - 00:35:25:12
Speaker 3
So I think the challenge for something like that would be to just really be 100% careful about what the framing is around it, to really make sure this is edutainment, not authentic, to really make sure that there's all kinds of caveated language around this. I see with my kids, you know, I'm constantly saying to them, what's the source?
00:35:25:14 - 00:35:48:04
Speaker 3
What's the roots here? And I think that's a really important part of all of this. And then obviously the second part for us is, is it okay with the veterans? Is it okay with their families? And we've seen, you know, where some of these smart models can really cause problems. I'll give you an example. Large very popular. I'm not going to name names.
00:35:48:04 - 00:36:16:05
Speaker 3
Kabul edutainment organization did a huge feature on VPI a few years ago that was very well received. They did it through broadcast and they did it through online. It was not cyber casting. It was not that long ago. We had wonderful vignettes of, you know, moving veterans that we could all connect to. And they had some automated system for what the advertisements would be that ran in the margins.
00:36:16:07 - 00:36:38:11
Speaker 3
The advertisements were so insulting to the veterans families. We had them calling us and telling us, please, please disassociate this. They didn't know, of course, that it was automated. It was kind of new for that to be happening. We didn't know enough to have said, this should be part of our process for when we agree for something to be used.
00:36:38:13 - 00:37:00:07
Speaker 3
So in that vein, I think there just needs to be super careful framing and sourcing and a way for people to get back to the original voice. Okay, this is great. This is an aggregate of 50 people. That's awesome. I can ask this person questions. What if I want to hear the original unmediated voice? How do I get to that voice?
00:37:00:09 - 00:37:02:00
Speaker 3
I think that would be really important.
00:37:02:00 - 00:37:22:03
Speaker 1
And I think what I'm hearing there too, is that connection to the original. And it comes back to that connection. So then what is the guiding post from like what is the value? What is that guiding intention? As we look to the future of applying these technologies, what would you say is the most important thing about it?
00:37:22:08 - 00:37:45:19
Speaker 4
You know, there's a huge push on the customer experience and in any very diverse set, you're going to have a diverse set of customer experiences. Right. But I think one of the upsides of something like AI, as you can start to almost personalize the experience as much faster, right? The downside in the world of AI is, if the information isn't readable, you could actually lose it, right?
00:37:45:19 - 00:38:13:23
Speaker 4
And so, you know, it's got both sides. But I do think more personable, more tailor experiences are going to help make that connection better. Right. And, and I would just encourage everybody as they think about use cases for it in this space. How do you help kind of distribute the good word faster with AI and get it out to the children who, I mean, you know, they're they're using these technologies now, right?
00:38:13:23 - 00:38:27:04
Speaker 4
Like in every day, this is kind of the natural language interface. And it's going to move off the screen and into your glasses and into your EarPods and, and we have to be able to tell that story how people are accessing it.
00:38:27:09 - 00:39:02:12
Speaker 2
I was just telling earlier, we're producing kind of an AI guide for volunteers. That kind of talks through different prompts and things they should be thinking about if they're using AI because people are going to use AI regardless if we give permission or not. And as an organization that's national and has tens of thousands of volunteers who are, you know, utilizing our brand, it's really important that we provide some guidance and we're trying to help educate people to make good decisions and make sure that they're getting multiple sources if they are sharing anything that's, you know, personal stories on the local level.
00:39:02:12 - 00:39:37:04
Speaker 2
We ask them to get permission from the families, and we can't guarantee that everyone's going to follow these guidelines. But having them there gives a little bit of permission, I guess, to utilize these tools that are freely available to everybody. So we're just trying to put some guardrails around it as much as possible so that people are thinking about those things when they're writing in their prompts about, you know, what they want to put for their event on Facebook to make sure that we're staying in line with the authenticity and the factual information that's available.
00:39:37:08 - 00:40:02:21
Speaker 1
This is really interesting to me. And Amber, I think you bring up something that's important is people are going to try fill in the space like, and we see this and we see it, in with civilian, different companies that are using AI where you can upload a picture of your relative, upload some information, and then have a conversation with your past uncle or mother and stuff.
00:40:02:22 - 00:40:21:22
Speaker 1
And people feel different ways about that, but they're filling that space. And I think what you've done there is a little proactive in terms of like, people are going to want to use AI, so how do we offer them that tool but have it injected with those values and those pieces? And and I think that's an important piece.
00:40:21:23 - 00:40:23:15
Speaker 1
Was that something you were thinking of?
00:40:23:20 - 00:40:39:07
Speaker 2
I mean, we're seeing it already. So we're actually kind of reacting to it. I mean, I'd love to say that it was that proactive, but we're reacting to it a little bit because, you know, we're seeing things that are coming out there that are just total left field that have nothing to do with the brand or the mission.
00:40:39:09 - 00:40:58:11
Speaker 2
And it's good intention. I mean, nobody is purposefully going out there and trying to mislead people, but unfortunately, you know, sometimes it's misinformation that they're pulling from AI. So we're just trying to keep up with it and provide some parameters. I mean, during the best we can, kind of from a reactive standpoint.
00:40:58:13 - 00:41:14:04
Speaker 1
I think anybody in the world today is, is being in a reactive standpoint. It moves so fast and it changes so fast. What's the blue ocean view of the future with this stuff? What what do you see? It would be the ideal application then.
00:41:14:04 - 00:41:39:07
Speaker 2
I would love to see it someplace where you can look up any person who has served this country, learn about their life and know it's fact and know where they you could go visit their grave. I mean, there's a lot of pieces that have these different tools, but I am using find a grave. I'm using Agency Explorer. I'm using so many different apps on a regular basis to make sure that we have the correct information about each individual person.
00:41:39:09 - 00:41:48:22
Speaker 2
So to be able to ensure that everyone has access to these stories forever, that's the blue ocean, I guess.
00:41:48:22 - 00:42:00:10
Speaker 1
So I, I really here is is it's accessibility trust like that. It's a source that can be trusted, which is challenging when there's so much noise in cells.
00:42:00:13 - 00:42:21:07
Speaker 4
Yeah. I mean, I think, I go back to when we were talking about over lunch where, you know, the idea of commemorating is a very human type of activity. Right? And for me, it's commemorating to kind of educate what makes this nation great. And so the blue ocean, like, I think we've lived it a little bit.
00:42:21:07 - 00:42:39:09
Speaker 4
Right? The, the rise of, I was here when Race Across America was, you know, just getting started. And we had a challenge to kind of go much bigger and bring it to the cemetery. Right. And, what that it is done, though, and dreaming big and blue ocean is now you're at what, 6000 cemeteries?
00:42:39:09 - 00:42:40:20
Speaker 2
We're in every state.
00:42:40:22 - 00:43:04:13
Speaker 4
And every state across the nation where kids are walking into cemeteries on on Veterans Day or Memorial Day or around Christmas and remembering the history. And hopefully that inspires the next generation to want to carry that history for, because that's ultimately what is keeping local towns and cities safe, is the service member of the veterans who have kind of protected this nation?
00:43:04:15 - 00:43:31:23
Speaker 3
I think one of the challenges we really grapple with is the universe of possibility is so big. There are 19, 20 million living veterans right now, depending on what your sources. And there's all the information about those who have passed and, you know, we have the collections that we have. They have collections at the Smithsonian. They have collections, you know, at the Vietnam Archive in Texas.
00:43:32:01 - 00:44:10:06
Speaker 3
So the universe of possibility to get to authentic and real information is so big. And it would be really wonderful that you could just get to somebody and, and have that be verified information. But also how do you get from accessible to discoverable to curiosity provoking? And so for me at the Library of Congress, I think we really need to be in a place where we're moving towards not just helping, as we do with getting to the unmediated, authentic source.
00:44:10:08 - 00:44:34:13
Speaker 3
Also getting from accessible to discoverable. Next step is creating those entry points. What you're describing is awesome, and I know you get to see it all the time in the cemeteries. When I'm out in the world, I'm not always seeing people who want to connect to this. So part of my work is to make sure that we are creating that curiosity entry point.
00:44:34:13 - 00:45:01:19
Speaker 3
Oh, my, my wife is related to this history. My life is related to that person. So getting back to that whole point about connectivity, a lot of what we do is about trying to create that thematic content curated through line, because otherwise the universe has millions of people who have amazing stories that we should all hear, and we don't have time to hear them all.
00:45:01:21 - 00:45:25:14
Speaker 3
And the reality is that we are here in an echo chamber of people who care about this. And there's a world of people out there who should be caring about this. And the real opportunity, and some of this technology is to create those through lines, to create that access point to curiosity. So my blue ocean is too ambitious for this conversation.
00:45:25:16 - 00:45:44:04
Speaker 1
I love it. I love it, you know, and as we're hearing you talk and I think, you know, Nick, as you said, is the personalized and it goes back to work for us in the scene right at the beginning. It's about connection. And and it goes to what I was hearing your volunteers talking about is, you know, their their emphasizing their witnessing.
00:45:44:04 - 00:46:10:23
Speaker 1
And and Amber, same thing when you're working with those Gold Star family. There is something technology will never be able to replicate, which is the authentic connection. But it can foster it. It can support it. And the boundary would be if it's ever getting in the way of the connection. The authenticity is what I'm hearing. I, I just I so appreciate this conversation.
00:46:11:01 - 00:46:18:22
Speaker 1
I'm going to turn it to the audience for a second here if there's any questions. But is there any final comments any of you wanted to make before returning to any questions from the audience?
00:46:19:00 - 00:46:44:10
Speaker 2
I really enjoy the Library of Congress Veterans History Project event last night, because she does a really good job with the 25 stories. I thought that was so manageable for my brain. And it was just such a great representation of all of those people who have served across 250 years, because it was really and if you have not been, I highly encourage you to please go take a walk around the Library of Congress and see the work that they're doing.
00:46:44:10 - 00:46:45:13
Speaker 2
It's pretty incredible.
00:46:45:15 - 00:46:55:23
Speaker 3
That's so kind. Thank you so much. It's your library, so thank you for being there. Please, please come. And I guess just thank you to my panelists for an engaging conversation today.
00:46:56:01 - 00:47:11:11
Speaker 1
It's great. Thank you. Before we give them a big round of applause, I do want to give an opportunity for any questions from the audience here. Any thoughts, anything that sticks out to you, anything that you learned and maybe have a different perspective on just from listening to the panelists.
00:47:11:13 - 00:47:29:05
Speaker 4
I wanted to make sure that everyone knows how to access your project. So, Nick, I think we have some ideas on how to, find your things. Yeah. I mean, A and C explore, I mean, I walked through the visitors lobby today and it's it's right there. It's next to the honoring the World War one unknowns, which is like, it's still a pinch.
00:47:29:05 - 00:47:47:23
Speaker 4
Me moment that we were able to kind of do something and have that out for. I mean, if you if you walked in today at any time, there just busses and busses of kids that the cemetery is able to teach. And so Arlington cemetery.mil I think is still the website. And or you go in the app Store and search ANC explorer, but yeah.
00:47:48:01 - 00:47:52:01
Speaker 4
You know, talk to Dan in the back. Talk to him is kind of in the back. Yeah. It's great.
00:47:52:03 - 00:48:02:06
Speaker 3
It's very easy. You go to the Library of Congress. So llc.gov for vets vets and just dive in. Really that simple.
00:48:02:12 - 00:48:25:05
Speaker 2
I didn't actually hear your question Matthew. But thank you for I got that point now. Reach across america.org. We're literally in every community across the country. We have some volunteers here today. Every single location is run by volunteers. This is truly a almost 100% volunteer organization. Encourage you to get involved in your community and find a cemetery near you, and reach Across America Radio for those.
00:48:25:05 - 00:48:47:10
Speaker 2
That's why we want to use microphones, because Chris is here and he's across America radio is streaming this, and we are trying very hard to capture those stories and share from, you know, we do a podcast with the USS Missouri, out of Hawaii, who's they have an archive of DVDs of service members who were on the USS Missouri and who were no longer with us.
00:48:47:10 - 00:49:09:21
Speaker 2
We took those DVDs, and now we have a podcast sharing those stories of these World War Two veterans in their own voice. So that's an example of technology that is, you know, maybe not as fancy, but radio streaming radio is still pretty cool. And so we're trying to keep those stories alive. So encourage you to tune in. And, we have a lot of great partnerships, including with Memory Anchor, and their podcast as well.
00:49:09:21 - 00:49:11:09
Speaker 2
So encourage you to take a look.
00:49:11:09 - 00:49:13:01
Speaker 1
It's now a cyber cast.
00:49:13:03 - 00:49:15:08
Speaker 2
Right? I don't even know what that means.
00:49:15:12 - 00:49:39:12
Speaker 1
But I like it. We're bringing it back. All right, well, I want to thank each of you for taking the time to join us here, but even more so for just continuing the work that you do. I, I'm a firm believer from generation to generation. The analogy is always to hold a torch of remembrance. And I think we're in a time and a space where that torch can become even brighter, as the fear is always that it will go out.
00:49:39:14 - 00:49:58:07
Speaker 1
And with people like yourselves committed to this work, it could never go out. So thank you so much for everything.
00:49:58:09 - 00:50:21:13
Speaker 1
You're listening to a special Memorial Day episode of Story Behind the Stone. Next up, my colleague Matthew Stewart sits down for an exclusive fireside chat with Orla Cove, the director of programing at DC's iconic historic Congressional Cemetery. Fresh off his provocative article Adopt or Die, AJ challenges us to radically reimagine how we activate history for a modern audience.
00:50:21:15 - 00:50:30:12
Speaker 1
Let's head back out to the Military Women's Memorial for this fascinating conversation.
00:50:30:14 - 00:51:00:08
Speaker 1
Afternoon, everybody, and thank you for joining us for the fireside chat. We might be lacking a fire, but with the weather we're having, I think we can use our imagination. Thank you for joining us today for this very special live edition of Sorry Behind the Stone. We're very excited for you all to be here with us. Whether you're sitting with us here, live in the room at the Military Women's Memorial, at the footsteps of Arlington National Cemetery, or listening to, to the podcast later on via Wreaths Across America Radio.
00:51:00:14 - 00:51:18:13
Speaker 1
We're really happy to to have you along with us for this conversation today. Today we're tackling a challenge that sits at the very heart of public history museum education and remembrance. The question we're tackling is how we keep the legacies of our veterans alive in this fast changing, modern world without losing an ounce of the dignity and reverence they earned.
00:51:18:14 - 00:51:38:17
Speaker 1
Today, our guest is uniquely qualified to help us answer that. He's a public historian who has spent his career humanizing history. He has served as an educator for the Hampton Roads Naval Museum, a lead education specialist for the National Museum of the United States Army, and today he's the director of programing at Washington DC's iconic historic Congressional Cemetery.
00:51:38:19 - 00:51:58:16
Speaker 1
Recently, he published a provocative article for American cemetery Information titled Adapt or Die, where he challenges all of us to rethink how we engage the public in sacred spaces. Please join me and giving a warm welcome to or Lucas Adjacent. Thank you. Tom.
00:51:58:18 - 00:52:17:13
Speaker 2
Yeah, and thank you so much, Matthew. And thanks to everyone at Memory Anchor for having me. And, really just want to compliment the amazing panelists we just had and just, you know, your work on the panel and your introduction, everything was just so wonderful. So just thanks so much for the work you're doing. It's incredible.
00:52:17:14 - 00:52:31:08
Speaker 1
Yeah. It does. Thank you. Yeah. So just to get it started, context is key. Can you give us a little bit of information? I guess more than the little blurb I just said about yourself, about your, your past and your your current role as director of programing. Sure.
00:52:31:09 - 00:52:54:19
Speaker 2
Yeah, absolutely. All but to pretty briefly, but really, I mean, director of programing, whatever job title I have. You know, first and foremost, I consider myself and, a total and complete history nerd. I gotta say, it's been a long time. Been a passion for me. I grew up in a, military region. I was, born in Norfolk, Virginia, a home of the world's largest navy base.
00:52:54:19 - 00:53:13:13
Speaker 2
And so I grew up in sort of the shadow of, you know, aircraft carriers being built. And, I was always fascinated by the military. I had had family members who served, and I when I went to school and going through school, I realized I was just loved it. And so I decided to try to make a career out of it.
00:53:13:13 - 00:53:36:03
Speaker 2
And so it's been really rewarding being able to work for as a contractor for two military museums, Army and Navy. And when the opportunity came, at Historic Congressional Cemetery to lead up their programing, I thought it was an amazing opportunity to continue that. And so as director of programing, what I'm really responsible for is the entire programing slate.
00:53:36:03 - 00:53:59:07
Speaker 2
We say, at the cemetery, at the core of it is how do we engage the public with these important stories and legacies of the past, and of course, including veterans. How do we present that to people that'll be present at the cemetery as a resource for people to come to engage with and, you know, get something out of it.
00:53:59:07 - 00:54:14:02
Speaker 2
And whether that's for history or another reason, that's what I do. I make sure that the living people that are coming to the cemetery are coming there to have a rewarding and fulfilling experience, and for whatever reason, that brought them there.
00:54:14:04 - 00:54:23:13
Speaker 1
Thank you. I can't imagine growing up near a shipyard. I'm from a landlocked state, Kansas, and so it's, completely alien to me.
00:54:23:15 - 00:54:26:17
Speaker 2
Only place in the world that builds them. Yeah, I want America.
00:54:26:20 - 00:54:45:01
Speaker 1
So to kick off the discussion, you have, as you just discussed, a rich background working in traditional military museums like the National Museum of the US Army. And so how does interpreting military history in the four walls of a museum change when you moved to, a historic burial ground like the congressional?
00:54:45:03 - 00:55:05:02
Speaker 2
Well, it's a it's a really great question. And, you know, I'm going to do now what I do on all of my tours and how I train our docents to give tours of the cemeteries that I want to challenge everybody to rethink how they're thinking of cemeteries like Congressional Cemetery, like Arlington, like others. And that, yes, of course, they're their burial grounds.
00:55:05:02 - 00:55:30:21
Speaker 2
They're graveyards. Right. But they're very, very much like history museums, except they're not curated by a museum professional. They're curated by the people who lived the history. And so when we're going through there and we're unlocking the cemeteries, resources, a historic resources, there are methods through our programing, through our interpretation, in enjoying that, we really much are treating it like a museum in I'm a museum professional, right.
00:55:30:21 - 00:55:50:14
Speaker 2
So of course that's how I'm going to treat these. I do the graves almost as these portals into a into the past. It's this window that we can open and we can explore and we can understand and we can challenge ourselves. And I just relish that's that's exactly what I want public history to do and what I think it can do.
00:55:50:14 - 00:56:14:13
Speaker 2
I think at a cemetery, we're afforded a really rare opportunity to use those portals to educate about about them and about these people who lived and their lives. And but I say that. Right. We do have a saying at the cemetery, I'm not sure if they have one similar in Arlington, but the cemetery has a place of reminding you what it is and that it is a cemetery.
00:56:14:14 - 00:56:48:00
Speaker 2
Everything that I said, you know, does have that caveat. And, you know, some have some quite literal and some more figurative. For example, we have no climate control. We're at mercy of the weather for any program we do. That's very fun. By the way. You can imagine it for every program worrying about the weather. But, you know, it also is a place where, because it is curated by the people, that the history, you do have to have a sense of place, of where you are and to understand that these legacies are important.
00:56:48:00 - 00:57:11:09
Speaker 2
Thanks. It's important when you're in a museum and you see somebody's artifact on the wall, or someone there, a piece of clothing, a piece of equipment, a weapon could even be a map. You have to be sensitive to that at the graveside. You have to be even more careful, because that's a tremendous responsibility you have at somebody's gravesite to talk about their legacy.
00:57:11:11 - 00:57:28:22
Speaker 2
And so it's both like and unlike a museum, almost in equal parts. And so it's it's been really interesting. I have been there about four years now. And in that four years I have learned a lot on how to work with a historic cemetery. As a public historian.
00:57:28:22 - 00:57:44:18
Speaker 1
I can imagine, and I don't really like the analogy about the portals as well. I think that even just walking through there yesterday with my colleagues, we, kind of felt that, that gravitation and the ability of maybe stepping back into time, experiencing these people's stories, even just for, for a moment.
00:57:44:20 - 00:57:46:21
Speaker 2
Exactly, exactly.
00:57:46:23 - 00:58:00:23
Speaker 1
In your article that I, introduced. Sure. You use a very provocative title, Adapt or die. And for those who haven't read it, what's the central crisis that you lay out that, that cemeteries are facing?
00:58:01:01 - 00:58:19:06
Speaker 2
Really? What I'm what I was trying to do and adapt or die is I was trying to highlight something that I know I had noticed. And as I began to know and I met other public history professionals working in historic cemeteries, it was something that was not just insular or singular. It was something that was appearing across the entire field.
00:58:19:06 - 00:58:53:20
Speaker 2
And so the thing about historic cemeteries, and I promise this as a point, is that another thing, unlike museums, is there are a lot of really amazing professional associations that share knowledge, for museums, there's not so many for historic cemeteries. It doesn't really exist in that form. Right. So what I really wanted to do is I wanted to find a way to capture my observations, to galvanize what I think has been not only successful at Congressional Cemetery, but has been very successful in many historic cemeteries.
00:58:53:22 - 00:59:26:15
Speaker 2
And so what I wrote about is really the transformation of North American cemeteries in particular over time. And I talk about how that cemeteries have never been static institutions. They have always changed, consciously or unconsciously, subconsciously, to the needs of the living. It makes sense. We have a society that produces cemeteries and produces these places of rest. And therefore, of course, since it's coming from the society, it's going to mirror societal values.
00:59:26:17 - 00:59:49:02
Speaker 2
And what I've noticed that has happened is that the change has been constant. They've always been changing. You can go from the very beginning, such as when Historic Congressional Cemetery was founded in 1807. That was more of vane on sort of a churchyard layout with these rigid lines in the 1830s and 40s. With Mount Auburn, you get the rural cemetery movement that's return to nature.
00:59:49:02 - 01:00:09:07
Speaker 2
But then, oh, no, no, no. Then you got to have more space and it's got to go out. So then you have pastoral cemeteries, these pastoral retreats in nature. But then in the 20th century it changes again and you get, a lot of cemeteries that are more long park style, where these for the pristine cuts in these graves and these are, a lot like Arlington is even though it was, was founded earlier.
01:00:09:09 - 01:00:33:10
Speaker 2
And so really what I wanted to do was just really highlight that this change is always been there. And what's driven it are the cultural values that society has. And I noticed something troubling. What I found that was troubling is that, of course, we know throughout the 20th century, infant mortality was a lot lower. Death becomes a lot less present in people's lives.
01:00:33:12 - 01:01:01:20
Speaker 2
You go back to the Victorian times. There are public expressions of mourning are so vivid to us. They wear black, they stop the clock at the time of someone's death and they, you know, I visited cemeteries. They were places you visited and activated and picnicked and because it was urban greenspace and all of those things. And, you know, I really found, though, is that death as it became more absent from people's lives, which is a good thing, right?
01:01:01:20 - 01:01:24:15
Speaker 2
Of course, it's a good thing. Now, you don't have every child, one of every two children, I think in 1750 was dead before the age of 12. It's hard to imagine for us. And so I think because of that, you see the rise of the death care industry to compartmentalize death, to take it away from people's reality. And so death becomes this thing that's not experienced as often.
01:01:24:17 - 01:01:51:20
Speaker 2
And when you do experience, it's compartmentalized within the funeral home and within the cemetery. It's not a place you visit anymore. It's a place you go. You bury your loved one, you cry and you're sad. Maybe you'll visit occasionally to remember them, but they became these more insular places. And this isn't true universally. There's some cemeteries, particularly Arlington, you know, as it's always been so activated.
01:01:51:21 - 01:02:19:10
Speaker 2
But really what I found is that we were at a moment where we need to go back to what the Victorians were doing, and that is to activate the spaces of death, to be more aware of them, to learn the history, to learn the narratives. And in doing so, again, when we're honoring veterans, we're honoring the past, but we're also making our lives better by learning about them.
01:02:19:12 - 01:02:53:03
Speaker 2
And also being a little more in touch with death to inform how we live our lives. And so I think that gets to the crux of what I was saying is that cemeteries, but as many cemeteries are changing, congressional is one of them. I'm proud to be part of that change. But many, many other cemeteries have made this choice to be active programing, to serve the living audiences that are part of the communities and what I'm a very afraid of, and when I was trying to write about, is not every cemetery is doing that, and I do not want to see cemeteries become these insular places.
01:02:53:03 - 01:02:57:04
Speaker 2
Nobody goes to the nobody learns these stories. And so that's why I wrote the article.
01:02:57:04 - 01:03:16:00
Speaker 1
And talking about that attraction of, bringing people, I guess, closer to, to death. In your article, you emphasize today's cemetery programing specialists need to adapt, to postmodern audiences. How do you define a postmodern audience and what are their expectations when they step into a cemetery area?
01:03:16:04 - 01:03:37:10
Speaker 2
I promise this is not going to be a diatribe on postmodernity. We've all had enough of that. But, just to briefly explain it, you know, is that this idea of modernity that really comes out of the 20th century is this idea that everything can be knowable, knowledge can be compartmentalized, could be captured, it can be actionable, and it's this is great thing.
01:03:37:10 - 01:04:02:07
Speaker 2
And you write the book on this person and it's done. And that's the last word. And everything's knowable when we can master it. And part of that, you know, is a lot of other things in the 20th century spring for that. But in the postmodern thought, which is really comes into vogue, I think, more in the 80s and 90s and we're definitely now in the postmodern age, is that it's kind of a thing where not everything is not knowable and that there is some ambiguity and there is some subjectivity.
01:04:02:12 - 01:04:31:08
Speaker 2
And instead of this, this, just these grand, sweeping narratives, there's some pastiche to it. There's a little more lightness to it. There's a little more creativity in how people want to be engaged. And so that means, of course, the postmodern audience is very much different from what the modern audience was. And cemeteries and museums have often been built still for the modern audience, the postmodern audience, which is particularly skews younger.
01:04:31:08 - 01:04:57:12
Speaker 2
We're still in sort of that sort of the transition, I think, fully. But really that means that they're increasingly online, increasingly engaged with digital means. And the postmodern audience is one that maybe doesn't need like need a nice answers. They don't need these sweeping, grand narratives. They're just looking for meaning and authenticity. That's a word that our panel said earlier.
01:04:57:12 - 01:05:21:01
Speaker 2
A lot. And I think that's a really powerful word, because right now the postmodern audience site is so ephemeral. We're so digital, we're we're not as socially ingrained with each other as we used to be. Society is more transient. We're less attached to our communities. And yet at the same time that we're increasingly online, I feel like audiences are crying out for something more authentic.
01:05:21:01 - 01:05:36:12
Speaker 2
They're starved for these experiences. So I really think that provides public historians, and particularly public story and seminarians like myself, a real opportunity to jump into there and provide something authentic for people.
01:05:36:14 - 01:05:56:16
Speaker 1
And we're going to come back to those, authentic opportunities and experiences in just a minute. But before we get there, I want to talk to you about, traditional interpretations, of cemeteries and how they, how traditional military education often focuses on more broad strokes, education, troop movements, high ranking generals. And we're talking about these modern audiences.
01:05:56:18 - 01:06:08:03
Speaker 1
How do they respond to these broad stroke educational initiatives as compared to like the more personalized, specific stories that are maybe more authentic, like you were talking?
01:06:08:04 - 01:06:27:17
Speaker 2
Yeah, that's a great question. And one I had to learn the hard way. A quick story. My first ever history gig, I was an intern at the Cold Harbor Battlefield for Richmond National Battlefield Park. That was my first gig, my first touch with real professional public history. And, I prepared a tour that was all about what you're talking about.
01:06:27:19 - 01:06:45:10
Speaker 2
This is the generals. These were the battle lines. They fought right here. They had this many cannons. They had all this. And I remember I got some feedback from my, my supervisor, one of the interpretive rangers for the battlefield, and he looked at me and he said that, you know, all this is great, but where's the heart to this?
01:06:45:10 - 01:07:14:10
Speaker 2
Like, what does this mean? So what he said, so what? And that completely transformed how I think about history. And I've always go back to that in every program that I do or work on, I ask myself, so what? Why does the generals matter? Why did the battle lines matter? And I think they do. But what matters so much more is the real human experiences that people went through.
01:07:14:15 - 01:07:38:00
Speaker 2
And that's what I try to bring out, because what's going to be more powerful for somebody and also more universal are those universal human truths. We talked about, you know, a Revolutionary War soldier compared to a soldier today, there's a lot that they're not liked, right? Different equipment, different uniforms, different style of fighting, different cultures, and in many ways.
01:07:38:02 - 01:08:05:20
Speaker 2
But they both had human emotions. They both had got sad. They both probably got angry. They both, you know, know what it's like to leave a family behind and fight them. And so if we seek out and we humanize history and we humanize battlefields and museums and cemeteries, we're anchoring that into something that's far more resonant and powerful and universal than battle maps.
01:08:05:22 - 01:08:07:01
Speaker 2
You need to know the battle maps.
01:08:07:01 - 01:08:07:15
Speaker 1
Yeah, of course you.
01:08:07:15 - 01:08:12:10
Speaker 2
Want to talk about it, but it's so much more important to center the human at the story.
01:08:12:13 - 01:08:43:21
Speaker 1
I think it's fascinating. You know, I think, again, you know, context is key. And understanding that those broad strokes, movements and, you know, the general idea behind what drove, specific activities. But, you know, as we talk about with memory anchor, one of the most important things that we, we try to do is that personal connection to the past and those macro or micro level stories, those individual authentic histories, I think is what really gets people engaged and make them want to come back and and continue to be engaged with the history.
01:08:43:23 - 01:08:44:19
Speaker 2
That's well said.
01:08:44:21 - 01:09:12:13
Speaker 1
Exactly. Fantastic. And kind of sticking with the the military and the the conversation there. We live in an era at the moment where fewer Americans personally know veterans. And I'm curious as to your perspective, but how do you think historians and interpreters adapt their methods to address this disparity? And what role do you think cemeteries play in, in bridging that that gap?
01:09:12:15 - 01:09:39:04
Speaker 2
I think we really are kind of I don't want to say a crisis, but it's certainly something that everybody involved with military interpretation, public interpretation needs to know, and that the military actually have the least representation in the military per capita of the population. Since we've had in the interwar period between World War one and a War two, we have about 5.2, people in uniform in the armed forces, active duty per 1000 people.
01:09:39:09 - 01:10:02:21
Speaker 2
Again, that that's very low. Makes sense. Right. And the military doesn't require as much manpower, people power. And of course the population is a lot larger. And so what this does is that means that more members of the public don't know veterans. They don't have veterans in their family. They don't understand military culture. They don't understand what it's like to be part of a military family and have to move around 10 or 12 times.
01:10:02:23 - 01:10:28:18
Speaker 2
People just don't know that. And so that type of thing makes our job even more important. And I think makes some of the things I've noticed saying in the field just really important for us to be aware of that. You know, people don't understand. And I think in this audience, we all agree they they should and they need to because it makes us, you know, show up more for military families.
01:10:28:18 - 01:10:42:12
Speaker 2
It makes us show up more for veterans and to help remember them because they deserve it. So that that's that's definitely something that I think is we should all lean in on and just understand our audience. Right. Doesn't know the military as much.
01:10:42:14 - 01:11:05:09
Speaker 1
As for sure. And so jumping back a little bit, going back to the conversation that we're having a minute ago about modern programing, your cemetery has kind of famously leaned into some of the more, entertaining things to to bring people into, the cemetery to get people more engaged. My team and I, yesterday when we were walking through your cemetery, noticed even, a significant amount of, dogs being walked through there.
01:11:05:12 - 01:11:16:01
Speaker 1
You know, I, I think that there's, maybe a few different viewpoints on, on bringing dogs in, for example. But why do you think this, transformation was necessary for a cemetery such as yours?
01:11:16:01 - 01:11:45:23
Speaker 2
Right. And it's a really important question. And really the answer for why, there were more unorthodox, untraditional programs deployed at Congressional Cemetery, really throughout the early 20th century is, I didn't necessity congressional Cemetery in 1997 is the oldest burial ground in Washington City and the first cemetery of national memory. It was on the National Trust for Historic Preservation Top 11 list of most endangered historic sites in the country.
01:11:46:00 - 01:12:03:08
Speaker 2
The grass was up to your navel. It was dangerous to be in there. There was open air crime and it was just a really, really not a good place for people to be. And you have, you know, thousands of veterans in that graveyard and the grass is so high you can't even see their name. And so this is a real crisis.
01:12:03:08 - 01:12:27:07
Speaker 2
We were really in danger of losing congressional forever, possibly. And this history gone. But what happened is the community stepped up. It's a really amazing comeback story. Part of that community is these people who started coming to the cemetery for the right reasons. Either they had family members buried there, or they were mostly just local neighbors who realized, oh my gosh, we have this amazing cemetery here.
01:12:27:09 - 01:12:54:07
Speaker 2
We want to we're walking our dog. And we came in here and we noticed there's open air. Crime in the grass is tall. And what can we do? And so what that did this is really in the late 80s, early 90s. It led to the cemetery being filled with people in the community. And those community members cared about the cemetery somewhat, to call the cops on the open air crime, someone to organize the first community cleanup days, and indeed the canine Corps, which we have now sprang from that.
01:12:54:07 - 01:13:17:07
Speaker 2
And so today we do have a dog walking program, but it is not inaccurate at all to say that dogs saved the cemetery, and they're a really important part of our community and our institutional history. So definitely, I think there is I understand if anyone says, like you have dog walking in the cemetery, that's so disrespectful. That's just so improper.
01:13:17:09 - 01:13:45:08
Speaker 2
But what I think in the case of congressional is what's more dishonorable for veterans? Is it having, you know, completely headstones toppled, destroyed, overgrown, dangerous cemetery that nobody visits unless they're there for a bad reason? Or do we want dogs frolicking in an urban green space and neighbors coming in, filling the space full of joy for the living and vibrating with life.
01:13:45:14 - 01:13:51:06
Speaker 2
And so that really kind of that that's that's one of our more notable, programs. But really with all springs from the community.
01:13:51:08 - 01:14:02:07
Speaker 1
Yeah. I mean, honestly kind of brightened our, our visit yesterday as well. It was a lot of fun to walk through there and see, the various dogs we got to meet, a lot of them, it was, it was kind of fun. Yeah.
01:14:02:08 - 01:14:09:04
Speaker 2
And we we have veterans that choose to be there because it is filled with dogs. So, you know, we buried a few last year. So they some people seek it out.
01:14:09:07 - 01:14:25:13
Speaker 1
Definitely. And so, I mean, not only do you have the, the dog, the, the canine corps, but also, I mean, you host five kids, there's movie nights, there's, book groups. Do you personally have, like, a favorite initiative that that's sprung up or maybe one that, that you've driven yourself?
01:14:25:13 - 01:14:49:06
Speaker 2
Yeah. So we are very much known for our, again, more untraditional, unorthodox programing. But again, it's not just congressional. There is many historic cemeteries that are now choosing to again, populate the spaces for things, for the living to do historic tours, walks and things like that. But particularly, my favorite, program that I get to work on is something called Soul Strolls.
01:14:49:06 - 01:15:11:17
Speaker 2
This is live, outdoor, immersive, historic theater. Said that five times fast in the outdoors in the cemetery in October. So we have actors playing the we call them interred residents at their graveside, and they give interpretation all educational history vignettes. This is not a and it's a walk and the evening where a guide will take you to each stop.
01:15:11:17 - 01:15:38:23
Speaker 2
And so you get this curated history experience, where you can learn cemetery, learn about the legacies of these people that are buried there. And what I really love about it is that it's exactly what I relish it as a public historian, because people come out and they think they're just, oh my gosh, we're going on this haunted walk in the cemetery and we can have a beer, and we're there to just have fun with our friends.
01:15:39:01 - 01:16:02:17
Speaker 2
It's not that at all. This is a history lesson. I've just put some sugar in the medicine to make it go down easy. And we serve. I'm very proud to say we serve, 2500 people every year with soul strolls, sells out every year. And we're able to fill the cemetery with thousands of people who otherwise might not have been there to learn about veteran history.
01:16:02:17 - 01:16:23:00
Speaker 2
And, you know, your programing is holistic. You come to A5K, you come to a movie night, you come to soul strolls and you have a good time. Maybe you might come back and take my American Civil War tour. Maybe you'll come back and visit a veteran on Reach Across America, which we are very proud to be doing. Now, maybe you'll come back for any other reason.
01:16:23:00 - 01:16:31:11
Speaker 2
And hey, or a nonprofit, you might even join us in helping preserve the cemetery. And so the program works very holistically like that.
01:16:31:14 - 01:16:39:19
Speaker 1
Absolutely. And I think that you're creating a community, and I think that community is at the core of even the revitalization that you talk about, like Congressional Historic Cemetery. Oh.
01:16:39:21 - 01:16:43:04
Speaker 2
Very much. The community is absolutely at the heart of what we do. Yeah.
01:16:43:04 - 01:17:03:08
Speaker 1
Absolutely amazing. Let's shift gears just a little bit, and we want to talk about the central tension that you wrote about in your article. You wrote about the line between dynamic, engaging public programing and this solemn dignity owed to those interred, especially veterans. And how do you personally divide, define or that that line sets?
01:17:03:09 - 01:17:25:17
Speaker 2
It's a really tough question. I think about this every time we deploy a program. Am I being disrespectful? Am I pushing something too far? Is this not appropriate? And so what I do to anchor myself is that one. I remind myself if I'm asking myself these questions, that's a really good thing to, sort of what our panel was alluding to earlier.
01:17:25:21 - 01:17:50:02
Speaker 2
Sauces, sauces, sauces. You stick to the sauces. As a historian, that's just what you do. And it's part of being responsible historian. You don't make things up. You go to the sauce, you interrogate the sauce, and you learn more. So you have to stay anchored in the sauces, but also you have to you have to know, I think particularly with veterans, there is a sensitivity that is due.
01:17:50:04 - 01:18:13:02
Speaker 2
But I think particularly when you have these veteran narratives, talk to veterans, know them, it's not that one veteran is going veterans are not monolithic, right? I mean, like it's not like one veteran is the end all be all when it comes to that. But knowing a little bit about engaging with veterans and talking to them and doing things like that will help your moral compass on those things.
01:18:13:04 - 01:18:38:17
Speaker 2
But most of all, again, as I said, these hawk cemeteries, this is a emerging field really for cemetery professionals like myself. There's no book on this. And so what I've had to learn most of all, I've had to trust my instincts. I've had to trust that gut feeling that I have and to trust in my own sincerity that I'm approaching this with an energy that is honoring and celebrating.
01:18:38:17 - 01:19:00:04
Speaker 2
And I say every single program we have at Historic Congressional Cemetery is in celebration and remembrance of all of the incredible people who have come through in this country's great history. And that includes our veterans. And that is my North Star. And it's something that we talk about all the time. So it's an ongoing conversation.
01:19:00:04 - 01:19:17:13
Speaker 1
I can imagine. Yeah. And I think that you bring a lot of honest, sincerity to, to what you do. But I can imagine that there's still remain some conflict. And I'm curious, have you ever had, I suppose, disagreements with the veteran community? And is there anything that you've had to do in order to to walk that line or.
01:19:17:13 - 01:19:44:10
Speaker 2
Yes. Not commonly, but yes. And it's something where, I've, I've had to again lead with my sincerity. And I think that helps. And when someone approaches you with like, hey, I don't think you should be doing this, you don't respond in a, an aggressive manner. Right? You listen, you talk to them. The fact that they wanted to speak up means they care a lot about it.
01:19:44:16 - 01:20:05:12
Speaker 2
And also I could have it wrong. I need to listen and hear people out. And I have felt that listening and hearing people out and treating people with respect and dignity, even when they're mad at you, especially if they're mad at you, goes a long way. And but I will say two, part of that sensitivity is bears out in the programing.
01:20:05:12 - 01:20:19:19
Speaker 2
And definitely I would say that the more recent interments, for obvious reasons, are a lot more sensitive than others to. I would definitely that is a major factor for me when considering how we're exploring these legacies.
01:20:20:01 - 01:20:49:16
Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah, it has to. So as we look at like towards the future and we were talking earlier also about the engagement of youth and the importance of getting, younger generations engaged. I think historically and typically, you know, it's been plaques and, you know, signage that that we engage the visitors with. But if these plaques and signs aren't cutting it, do you have a toolkit for the future that that you're going to employ, or that you have ideas on how to engage these younger generations?
01:20:49:18 - 01:21:17:02
Speaker 2
Yeah, absolutely. And again, I think we're sort of writing this chapter as we speak, but I think there are some ways to reach audiences. And one is that you, the I consider things like plaques, signage. In my parlance, I would refer to that as passive programing. It's an interpretive product, like walking tours or self-guided walking tours or signage, things like that, and you want to be interpretive in them when you when you're describing them.
01:21:17:02 - 01:21:34:17
Speaker 2
But those are passive and that's the key word. Right. But what I really love is activated programing. And so that is basically taking veterans and those legacies through the programing apparatus that we create at the cemetery. And I'll give you an example, a soul strolls on a soul strolls a couple of years ago because every soul strolls is different.
01:21:34:17 - 01:21:53:07
Speaker 2
There's new people included every year. So every one is its own production. And we had a Mexican-American War veteran at Soul Strolls. I wanted to interpret, and I had to do so very carefully. I still did it, and I did it because I had good sources on it. I knew what I was talking about. We had some good ones on this.
01:21:53:12 - 01:22:13:11
Speaker 2
He was one of the first casualties of the Mexican-American War. And he was. And so what I did is that he's the someone who sacrificed for the country and putting him into soul strolls, you know, talk about race across America. You read their names out loud. Well, I got 2000 people to hear his name out loud, and his name probably hadn't been said in a long time.
01:22:13:13 - 01:22:36:15
Speaker 2
And so we use the creative programing as this lens to magnify that narrative in a way that's an activated program. Other ways to do it, or of course, digital online, you can go a long way, meet people where they are. Social media. We have a very active and vibrant presence on Facebook and Instagram, for example. And this isn't just advertising the programs.
01:22:36:15 - 01:23:06:04
Speaker 2
This is, hey, this person on this day, it's very it's it's history based. It's, information based and everything. And again, that's more of a way to activate. We're getting right into people's feeds with the historical content. And of course, blogs, our website. And then, of course, a lot of the important work you all are doing. Right. We need to find these ways to leverage digital means to enhance our storytelling, or it's just not going to reach and resonate people.
01:23:06:04 - 01:23:08:20
Speaker 2
People are online. We have to go where they are.
01:23:09:02 - 01:23:27:02
Speaker 1
Yeah, but I think that you're doing a lot of work to meet people where they are. It's, I find it interesting that the even the active programing that you're doing, I feel like that's, a major philosophy for you, you people that want to do A5K, you know, you're meeting them where they are and the where their interests are people that are online, you're meeting them where they are, where their interests are as well.
01:23:27:03 - 01:23:36:23
Speaker 2
Exactly. And again, it operates holistically. Someone comes to the five K. Well how is that honoring a veteran. But it's going to get them to come back. Yeah. And it's going to get them to love the space like I love it.
01:23:37:01 - 01:23:54:16
Speaker 1
So congressional Cemetery itself holds the remains of veterans. You know, as you talked about from spanning from the Revolutionary War all the way to to the more modern conflicts. How does your interpretation strategy shift between the commemorations between such vast, vastly different, engagements?
01:23:54:16 - 01:24:28:10
Speaker 2
Yeah, and I alluded to this earlier, but just to really put a pin on it. Right. Is that there is there must be a sensitivity for timing here. You know, a veteran who was buried ten, 20 years ago and has the living family still there that I basically consider off limits for things like social struggles, things that are a little more unorthodox are out there because unless I have, though, the specific blessing of the family, and I can talk to them and I could do things about that, I have done that for recent interments.
01:24:28:10 - 01:24:47:14
Speaker 2
But often times I try not to approach it with like soul strolls things. And then again, sort of just my own instinct in God that this doesn't feel right to me. So we're not going to do it. But for the older narratives where, again, I feel like people do not know this person's name anymore. There's no family, there's no anything like that.
01:24:47:16 - 01:25:05:12
Speaker 2
That's a little more open for some of the creative programing, I think. But even then, you know, last year, I did a re interment ceremony for a commanding general of the U.S. Army's Alexander McComb and Alexander McComb. The reason, even though he died in like the 1840s, some of his remains are being studied by the Smithsonian.
01:25:05:12 - 01:25:24:16
Speaker 2
And they and they returned it. And so we had his remains. I wanted to do a reinterpret ceremony. We're able to track down the family. He had active descendants. And we actually with the ceremony last year, two different sides of the McComb family met. And so we were we were really able to, you know, again, to try to involve the family.
01:25:24:16 - 01:25:34:12
Speaker 2
We're talking about someone's final resting place. Like, you really do need to make an effort, a faith effort to engage the family when you're talking about someone's personal narrative.
01:25:34:14 - 01:26:05:02
Speaker 1
So you had mentioned, you know, the the way that you got, thousands of people to say somebodys name in recent cross America is, attempting to to get people, I guess, people to go out to cemeteries and, and say people's names. You specialize in American, military history. But if we're talking about trying to get engaged with these smaller cemeteries, regional cemeteries throughout the United States, what kind of advice would you have, maybe for somebody that doesn't have your background or your resources and, and how might they get to tell maybe more dynamically, the stories of these veterans.
01:26:05:07 - 01:26:25:19
Speaker 2
So this is where I will do a call to action to everybody in the room and who's listening. Find your local cemetery, figure out what they're doing and see if they need help, because I promise you, they probably do cemeteries like Arlington or Congressional or the Mount, Auburn or Greenwood, New York or Oakland in Atlanta, these are major historic cemeteries.
01:26:25:19 - 01:26:47:22
Speaker 2
We have resources. We have budgets in the millions right before these things. You're local mom and pop cemetery that might have 1 or 2 people, even though it's a historic one. They're going to need your help in some way. And so, I would highly encourage everybody to, to again reach out. And but what they need to do on the cemetery end, if you don't have the means, is they need to do the inverse.
01:26:47:22 - 01:27:06:04
Speaker 2
They need to reach out to their community, and they need to get people and make vigorous efforts to make people understand what you have here. This is special. This is irreplaceable. This is somebody's final resting place. This is a veteran. We need your help to preserve their story. And they can start by just taking a walk around their cemetery.
01:27:06:04 - 01:27:23:13
Speaker 2
I can't tell you how many veterans I've found at the cemetery just by walking around, because that congressional they're interspace with everybody else. You don't really know. Even sometimes their stones aren't military stone. So I mean, you you really have to interrogate them. And so I think that's a cemetery and should do they need to know their resource.
01:27:23:13 - 01:27:44:20
Speaker 2
They need to ask questions. They need to interrogate it. They need to not just skate by, and then they need to look for the help in the areas they need it. And also they need to reach out to cemeteries, seminarians like myself or those at Greenwood or Oakland or Mount Auburn because they are, I promise you, I've been on dozens of calls with other cemeteries, giving some advice on how we do things.
01:27:44:22 - 01:27:57:04
Speaker 2
They need to reach out because help is out there and we are making efforts to try to unite historic cemeteries and cemetery ends who are not actively involved in death care.
01:27:57:06 - 01:28:12:03
Speaker 1
Amazing. Sounds like, like good work. And so I guess taking into account all of these, the challenges that these smaller regional cemeteries are facing and, trying to get people active, if you look down the road 10 or 20 years, what do you think? Cemetery programing is going to look like.
01:28:12:03 - 01:28:36:06
Speaker 2
Cemetery programing in an ideal world for me. And what I think we should do is if we do what I think we need to do, we need to activate the spaces. How do you do that? Go for museum professionals. They need to hire people who are trained, are in these places that are specialized to activate them. They need to, you know, you know, explore things like with memory anchor or other things like that.
01:28:36:06 - 01:29:00:23
Speaker 2
Where do you have these digital components that are inter spliced with your programing in your cemetery? So it make to make it more palatable and appealing to a postmodern audience? And, you know, I really think an ideal future for me would look like that. You know, every cemetery with this amazing history has a cemetery in who cares about the space and is invested in its success.
01:29:01:01 - 01:29:16:14
Speaker 2
And I think that is so critical. The sincerity of real people boots on the ground in public history. To help tell these stories, we need to roll our sleeves up and we need to do it. And so cemeteries need to get real, and they need to hire people who are ready to get real.
01:29:16:14 - 01:29:33:22
Speaker 1
I honestly think that, any cemetery would be lucky to have somebody with, with your type of gumption, energy and desire to. I think you engage with cemeteries. So, so I kind of bringing this all to a close wrap up. How can people, first of all, if they haven't read your article yet, how can they find that?
01:29:34:00 - 01:29:40:05
Speaker 1
And how can they learn more about all of the active, engagements that you have on the program?
01:29:40:07 - 01:30:01:09
Speaker 2
Absolutely. So the article is an American cemetery, and Cremation magazine. That's a publication of Cates Boylston. And you can go on their website. It's free to read. And so it is also the cover issue of their April issue. You can order that online as well at Historic Congressional Cemetery. Again, we are digital, so please, find us on Facebook and Instagram.
01:30:01:09 - 01:30:17:14
Speaker 2
I promise we have some good stuff coming to your feed that's all educational and talks about our programing. And of course we also have our website Congressional cemetery.org. And but the best thing is that's the biggest thing I can say to do is come out and see the cemetery. I'll be happy to see you. And we do tours by request.
01:30:17:14 - 01:30:21:06
Speaker 2
So bring your office, bring yourself. We love to have you.
01:30:21:08 - 01:30:30:06
Speaker 1
Fantastic. That's amazing. Thank you so much. Thank you for joining us. Thank you. Mapping. We're going to get into a break in a second, but we just.
01:30:30:06 - 01:30:36:22
Speaker 2
Wanted to open up. Was there any questions for AJ that you had as you were hearing him talk? Chris. And I'll give you my mic here.
01:30:37:00 - 01:30:54:07
Speaker 3
I have done a all struggle and it's the best I cannot like we it's people's birthday parties. I mean we do it annually is so fun. I never thought I could have so much fun at a cemetery. So for what it's worth, I had to like foot stomp that for AJ.
01:30:54:08 - 01:31:12:08
Speaker 2
Thank you. Amazing. Yeah. And it really is. It's, you know, it existed before me. I did not create it, but it is something where I think it is the most unique, fun thing you could possibly have while remembering people from the past. It's it's really cool. So I'm a little biased, but I'm glad someone else likes it too.
01:31:12:10 - 01:31:34:21
Speaker 3
This isn't for AJ, it's just kind of for everyone. We're all talking about veterans and something that I've realized as working with military because I don't have a military family. I feel like active military gets forgotten a lot in these conversations because one, they don't feel like they should tell their story yet because they're not a veteran yet.
01:31:34:23 - 01:31:56:02
Speaker 3
But I've learned so much from the military families I work with. My colleague is telling me about picks. Her husband is just getting transferred to Colorado Springs, which is great, but originally they thought they were going to Missouri. But wait, they're going to change to Colorado Springs. It's not till February. Oh wait, it's actually in December. You can't leave with him because you have a child that's still in school.
01:31:56:04 - 01:32:15:18
Speaker 3
Oh, but wait, you can't move with him because of that. And then by the time you get there, he's already going to be deployed to Korea. So I feel like in addition to veterans, we also need to think about how to make that connection to active to get their stories before they become a veteran, because it's so much more fresh.
01:32:15:20 - 01:32:20:02
Speaker 3
And it's also showing that appreciation while they're serving.
01:32:20:04 - 01:32:29:21
Speaker 1
Beautiful the evolution of the experience. Thank you for sharing that.
01:32:29:23 - 01:32:51:03
Speaker 1
Welcome back to Story Behind the Stone as we approach the conclusion of the future, a veterans heritage event. We are honored to bring you our final speaker, the president and CEO of the Global War on Terrorism Memorial Foundation, Michael Rod Rodriguez. Rod's entire life is defined by multigenerational service. He is a retired U.S. Army Special Forces Green Beret with ten deployments.
01:32:51:05 - 01:33:16:02
Speaker 1
The grandson of World War Two veterans, the son of a Vietnam veteran and the father of a soldier with four deployments of his own. Today, rod leads the historic, congressionally designated mission to build a national Global War on Terrorism memorial right on the National Mall and next door to the Vietnam Wall and the Lincoln Memorial, representing 3.7 million post 911 veterans and honoring over 7000 fallen service members.
01:33:16:04 - 01:33:45:23
Speaker 1
This landmark breaks history as the first National War memorial planned during an ongoing conflict. It is designed to be the most inclusive tribute ever built, honoring both uniformed and non uniformed personnel who stepped up to serve. Stay tuned for this inspiring and forward looking address anchored entirely in the Foundation's core pillars of honor. Heal, empower and unite.
01:33:46:01 - 01:34:07:03
Speaker 1
I am truly honored to invite and introduce our next guest, Michael Rudd Rodriguez, to close us out here today. I was talking to Rudd earlier on, how should I introduce you? And he just said, tell him anything. Tell him I'm a soldier. For some context, he is a soldier, but much more than that. He is just a driven man with purpose.
01:34:07:04 - 01:34:34:14
Speaker 1
He's the CEO of the Global War on Terror Memorial, and what he's doing is building this memorial, and it is going to have such a prominent space right next to the Vietnam Memorial. And Rod's going to tell you more about this. It is truly an honor for him to come and close out and bring his perspective. He has served with the Special Forces, the Green Berets, ten deployments, and the inspiration and the story and the presence that he brings is beyond words.
01:34:34:15 - 01:34:43:07
Speaker 1
I can't really do a just introduction. You're going to have to get to know the man himself. So I'm going to call him up here and you'll get a sense of what I'm talking about.
01:34:43:09 - 01:35:02:00
Speaker 2
Thanks, man. Well, I would like to kick things off and wish hero of ours, brother mine, who I never met, Anthony Shine, who's buried in section 60 not far from here. Actually. Colleen's father. A very happy birthday today. As you said, I just go by rod. You know, when the military where we were last name taped. Right. So, Rory is kind of hard to say sometimes.
01:35:02:00 - 01:35:19:08
Speaker 2
I think rod is a lot quicker than I was. Rod. My father served in Vietnam as rod, my grandfathers and all my great uncle go to rod. My son is a much taller, stronger, better looking version. Media called Little Rod drives him nuts. He's in the army. And of course, you know, the mother of our three monsters is, Mama Rod.
01:35:19:09 - 01:35:36:21
Speaker 2
She served for 21 years and deployed six times as well. So that's just rod, right? And a little bit about my family history as, my homeboy from north of the border up there. Was telling you on the president's CEO, did you want Memorial Foundation or the congressionally designated nonprofit tasked with building a national global War on terrorism memorial here in Washington, D.C.?
01:35:36:23 - 01:36:06:09
Speaker 2
Now, if we had about eight hours, I could give you a piece of the 24 step process to build a National Memorial Museum, here in Washington, D.C., and I would definitely invite, one of my colleagues, Mary Kay, to come up here and help me. So, but I won't go into that, you know, as a soldier doing what I did for a number of years, I consider it an absolute blessing to serve my nation and humanity, in the capacity that I did, inspired me to serve was, as I mentioned, my father served and and, you know, apple trees make apples, right?
01:36:06:12 - 01:36:24:06
Speaker 2
You know, they never really talked about their service, right? They never really did. I saw the pictures of them in there from way back in the day. The young man and and my Willie took my grandmother's house and they would they never really talked about it much, but when they did, they never talked about war. And those of us that have stepped in that arena and stepped out, I mean, I'm not glamorizing it.
01:36:24:08 - 01:36:37:14
Speaker 2
I was a sniper. I'm not going to tell you sniper stories. I'm not just not not who I am. That's not how I was raised. But what they did do was they spoke about the men they served with and those that never came home. And they spoke about them. The reverence and love. And these are incredibly stoic men.
01:36:37:16 - 01:36:53:08
Speaker 2
I grew up in southern New Mexico on the border. My family's from the United States. When it wasn't the United States, the border crossed us, right. Which is which was a blessing for us. So very stoic man. But they would speak, like I said, speak about them love. And it impact me as a young child. So I was like, well, I want to pursue that.
01:36:53:08 - 01:37:07:11
Speaker 2
I want to, I want to see what's there. I want to grow my familia. Right? I want to grow my family. So I did serve and I was blessed to serve in the capacity that I did. I think I fought my way through my career and meeting some incredible people. My first with my joining the Army, and I was in the Army, I think seven months.
01:37:07:11 - 01:37:28:12
Speaker 2
I joined in 1992, and then in the 93, I was about 7 or 8 months in and like, our unit got activated and they're like, hey, you guys deployed to Somalia? I'm like, yeah, I finally get to deploy. And I'm like, where? Somalia? Like, where is that? I didn't know. And for those of you remember, I think everyone's here long enough in the tooth to remember that what was going on at that point, it was call operation just for Hope.
01:37:28:14 - 01:37:49:02
Speaker 2
And we were there initially set to, ensure the warlords stopped stealing the rice from Mogadishu and Kismayu and ensure it got inland where the famine existed. So we did. And that was my job that, you know, I was with we escorted the food to those that needed it. And I tell you this because as young, I think the dumbest private the Army ever had, we would go and I'll never forget the first time we delivered rice to one of these camps.
01:37:49:02 - 01:38:07:06
Speaker 2
It was about in Baidoa, which is about about a 7 hour or 8 hour drive. We pick up the rice, you know, fight our way through Mogadishu kind of and then take it out in. And I remember the first time I pulled up, I looked across and you see all these little huts and these makeshift canvas tents, and it was, I think, care and concern the two NGOs who were there at that point.
01:38:07:07 - 01:38:28:10
Speaker 2
The ICRC was there, too. They were making sure to feed these children. And then I saw like it was hundreds of these, the huts there probably like over 1000 maybe more people. And I saw them. And then as they see these trucks pulling up with the rice, being courted by the United States military, I see all these figures get up and start walking towards where they're going, and they get there.
01:38:28:10 - 01:38:45:08
Speaker 2
As we got closer, I realized they were all children, every single one of them. And, you know, typical everyone, as I say, famine, you know, people distended bellies, lost teeth, no hair, extreme malnutrition, you know, so the body does. But I will say this, you know, those are some of the most, beautiful smiles ever seen in my life.
01:38:45:10 - 01:39:03:01
Speaker 2
But that's that's what I see, and I still see. So it was in that moment, like I said, the dumbest private army ever had. I was like, I realized that moment, the United States military and those who served doing a number of capacities no one ever really talks about, no one ever feels the need to share because it's just what you do right now.
01:39:03:01 - 01:39:19:22
Speaker 2
We run down bad guys and do what we gotta do. We're really good at it. No one's ever been as good as us. No, they're going to be. I'm going to keep getting better. But we also provide hope, safety, security, freedom, those that. It was true oppression. I witnessed true oppression now. So I'm gonna do as long as they let me do it right, until they kick me out or or I got blown up one too many times and they kicked me out.
01:39:19:22 - 01:39:42:07
Speaker 2
And so I say it back on for how my military career started. Really, what drove me again? Blessed to serve in the capacities I did progressed once and and all the other cool guy stuff that people see on TV and things. But that doesn't make me special. It doesn't make me different than anyone else here. Right? And I think a lot of veterans these same way, we make different career choices, we do different things.
01:39:42:07 - 01:39:58:08
Speaker 2
But no one in the military, particularly for those that have seen combat, like I want to go to combat, like send me to combat now. And that's not a choice. You choose a path and you just deploy. Some don't. It's just you do what you do, but you do it out of love of country, love your family, love self.
01:39:58:08 - 01:40:16:04
Speaker 2
And every time I've been deployed forward, I've, I've seen that. And I think that it's common every single time I deployed or even back stateside doing training and being away from home, I assume more birthdays and holidays than I care to mention. Or I can remember. Every one of us is committed to the mission. I know forward.
01:40:16:04 - 01:40:33:08
Speaker 2
For those of us that have worn the cloth of our nation. For if I'm standing next to someone, I can tell they're still the same words I did, and I can count on them. And I take a bullet for any one of them. And I love every one of them. Which is why I was really happy to to wish your father happy birthday today, even if I haven't met them.
01:40:33:10 - 01:40:51:01
Speaker 2
Right. That's a that's a family. So that's where I came from. Now, fast forward to what I do today. I never, as a young kid thought I'd be building a national war memorial. All right. How did I get here? I don't know, I just just ended up so happy. You know, I was presented with the opportunity to do this, you know, join the team.
01:40:51:02 - 01:41:10:01
Speaker 2
The foundation came together in 2015. I'll give a little history. And there were several veterans trying to do it kind of on their own, you know, building a national memorial and on sacred space. The nation's front line is probably more difficult things to do if you want to build something. And those that have been involved in that can say, I'm building something will exist as long as this nation.
01:41:10:03 - 01:41:25:02
Speaker 2
I never realized that till I was talking to the Secretary of Interior and I was giving a briefing and some stuff, and he stopped me. He goes, you realize what you're doing? I said, well, yeah, I'm trying to, but, you know, you're building something will exist as long as this nation exists. I then I'm looking for five centimeter targets in front of me, trying to get to the finish line.
01:41:25:03 - 01:41:43:23
Speaker 2
So they came together in 2015. I joined the team in 2016. And in 2017 we introduced a piece of legislation to seek exemption from the Commemorative Works Act of 1986. Now, the CWA of 86 was written and stated that a war has to be over a period of ten years before national one will work and built. I don't fault them for that.
01:41:44:01 - 01:42:03:19
Speaker 2
I don't want why some that stupid I'm know not really. It was 1986, you know I mean that's that was the fight wars are bookended. Wars happen for a period of time and they end. That was the perception or the belief, at that point. So we introduced a bill in 2015, swept through the House of Senate president, signed it in August of that year.
01:42:04:01 - 01:42:22:11
Speaker 2
Now all of a sudden, this good idea very became a reality, like, oh, crap, how do you do this? Right? How do you do this? The board turned to me like, hey, rod, can you support a leadership position? I'm like, I'll try. You know, at that point, my youngest son, my motivations to join, join this sacred mission was, my son was getting ready to enlist, mother of my children.
01:42:22:11 - 01:42:39:04
Speaker 2
She was still serving active duty at Bragg. And we're back. People. Airborne, all the way. Right. So that was my motivations. I was at home. I've been medically retired. You know, this small 501 C3 nonprofit because that's the vessel to build all the stuff here, which I think is great. You know, the process as I go through this, I hope I'm not throwing shade at the process.
01:42:39:04 - 01:42:59:19
Speaker 2
I'm glad. Is this challenging to do this? It's a sacred space, so I'll try so Sep new ship 2018. And here's a little more history. Some stuff that goes on right over there across the bridge. So in 2003, Congress deemed the reserve portion of the National Mall, which is what you would consider the National Mall closed. It deemed it a finished work of art.
01:42:59:20 - 01:43:17:22
Speaker 2
Nothing new has been approved since 2003. Had been the outside area. It's called area one. There's an area too, but we know when you go into that area one. So I'll mention some memorials, some prominent memorials that exist in area one right now World War one, Museum area one, the Eisenhower Museum, area one. Right. Those are two memorials that exist outside the reserve.
01:43:18:00 - 01:43:36:04
Speaker 2
Now, here's some background about the National Mall, the most visited site I think everyone compiled. Yes, in all of Washington, DC is the Lincoln Next three or war memorials Vietnam, World War Two, Korea, and then MLK. So it's a sacred space. If there's a center of that for foot traffic and visitation, it's it's the Lincoln and then everything else out there.
01:43:36:07 - 01:43:49:07
Speaker 2
This is not my memorial. I have a lot of experience in this, but I'm an expert, not I'm an expert on my family service, but I'm not. So I sought out input from others like, hey, we're what do you guys think? You should go if you think it's okay to be in area one? Okay, fine, I'll build it.
01:43:49:07 - 01:44:04:14
Speaker 2
And everyone, if you want in the reserve home, I have to go back to Congress to pass a bill that no one has passed. But tell me. That's my job. That's my responsibility. Everybody, even the lawmakers and the veterans in Congress that helped us get the first bill passed. Like, what do you mean it's not going there? Well, heck yeah.
01:44:04:16 - 01:44:23:11
Speaker 2
Personally, Bill, I'm like, oh, it's that easy, right? Okay. So that's what I did. Started the process, met with the various, agencies that exist to govern this the space, which is another complexity. Told them on this one. We want to build it around. You can't like a wall. I'm aware of of the 2003 closure, but I know if I go to Congress and ask for this and, you know, they're like, run!
01:44:23:11 - 01:44:37:07
Speaker 2
It's a 2008. And they were honest. I love everyone that works in this space because they're they're diligent. I know where they're coming from. They don't sugarcoat anything. I get beat up all the time. They're like, right, look, we're going to be honest. Like, everyone has tried. Everybody's failed people with a lot more influence, a lot more money.
01:44:37:08 - 01:44:54:22
Speaker 2
And having money have failed because ten, 15 years tends to mean it's not going to happen. I said, well, I'm just they I'm very openly transparent. I don't sneak around. I don't do no, no. Like, okay, go ahead. So I tried and so I effectively went back to work passing what is being called in closed doors. The impossible bill is never going to happen.
01:44:54:22 - 01:45:14:07
Speaker 2
But Bill supporters ain't going to happen. It took two sessions of Congress, but then President Biden signed my bill into law, and then in 2022, effectively return the applecart in the space, said a lot of people. But I'm here to to succeed in this mission. So during that process, those years, me doing that, I understood in in the 24 step process, we get to the design piece.
01:45:14:07 - 01:45:32:02
Speaker 2
My job to understand my operational environment was soft trust that I was using the military push operation force. True, the sort of things from one of those understanding operational alignment. So I took a deep dive. I'm I'm standing on the shoulders of giants. All those that have built everything here in this beautiful city prior to me. It's all a matter of public record.
01:45:32:02 - 01:45:49:15
Speaker 2
If you guys want to spend some time going, dive into that. So I read that and to understand my operational moment and I knew that we get to design, but I always wondered how many Vietnam veterans, you know, the very first National War Memorial built in our city was 1982, with the Vietnam War. As an artist, I got into art when I was in the Walter Reed just north of here.
01:45:49:19 - 01:46:04:11
Speaker 2
I got into his art. I found out that it's the purest form of communication. It can be a case of thought, feeling an emotion. It tells a story. And it's subjective. We can all look at a painting, and I'm like, man, that's beautiful. And y'all can be like, man, that's crap. And we're all right. That's all civic art.
01:46:04:13 - 01:46:31:03
Speaker 2
So I wondered, even as a veteran, it would be impossible for me from an objective standpoint as a veteran or finding another veteran designer to design it. How can you do that as vessel the voice and I don't know how many Vietnam veterans, myelin talked to have a cousin on that wall. So I wanted to be sure the voices were so I took a very deep social, psychological and anthropological view on what memorialization mean to humans.
01:46:31:03 - 01:46:49:14
Speaker 2
What do we mean? What does it mean to us at our core? I don't know if anybody knows this, but the very first structure after we built the fire pit, we're living in caves. The very first structure mankind built were burial mounds. SA cave system in South Africa has caves, Neanderthals and Homo sapiens. They found remains of them.
01:46:49:14 - 01:47:03:23
Speaker 2
But in one of the caves, if you follow it, there's one of the caves that you go up in there and there's a chamber that's their cemetery, the burial mounds. So it's the core of who we are. And if you think about it, just take a step back. That's the, I would think, one of the definitions of humanity.
01:47:03:23 - 01:47:22:22
Speaker 2
We're the only species on this planet that do that. So memorialization is at the core of who we are. So knowing all this, I decided to take a very different approach and, look for world class designer. Like I step into the Shark tank with me and design something with the ability, credibility and humility, with humility being the center pillar.
01:47:23:00 - 01:47:40:05
Speaker 2
Right? Nothing against artists, but I want to be sure an artist that would be involved and understand that had nothing to do with them, because it's got nothing to do with me. Found one. Or concurrent with this, I, created a design advisory council, of our stakeholders, because I wanted to tell the whole story of this incredibly complex and difficult to define war that people will dispute.
01:47:40:05 - 01:47:57:16
Speaker 2
We've lost two veterans. They're here. What's the war on terrorism? What's a good one? You're going to get two definitions, but let's just bring everybody back to the reality. So the global War on Terrorism service Medal, the Global War on Terrorism Expeditionary Medal have been awarded in the Caribbean and South America, in the Pacific and Africa and the theaters.
01:47:57:16 - 01:48:17:20
Speaker 2
You guys are probably thinking this is a global war and no point in time does anybody consider a named operation its own separate war. They call them wars, but they're named operation. Does anybody in here consider Operation Overlord, the D-Day invasion operation is own war. No part of World War Two, right? So I say that again, because what we've been working on incredibly complex.
01:48:17:20 - 01:48:40:02
Speaker 2
It's a complex war. How do I define this given the small percentage that have been fighting it? But I wanted to tell the whole story. For those of you that don't know, the very first, combat casualty wasn't even in the Army or Marines or Navy. Air Force or it he was named gentleman named Johnny Michael Spann, who was killed November 25th, 2001 of the CIA Special Activities Division.
01:48:40:04 - 01:48:56:10
Speaker 2
I was fortunate in my career place with some breach of charge compound and goes off. We run in and what we do, people running in after me, just like me, looking like me, kind of same stuff, you know? Why don't we were talking about that? And it was until 2019, the Department of Labor tried to put out a report to find out how many have we lost.
01:48:56:12 - 01:49:18:01
Speaker 2
Right. Because that's tracked by deal. Well, not DoD, American citizen. United States working for an American company for the American interest. They track that national responsibility 2019 early through the South and they published report. And I was dumbfounded by this number. So we're over 7000 uniform. There's over 3400 and none. Think about those families that no one talks about.
01:49:18:01 - 01:49:34:16
Speaker 2
If they weren't a veteran, they're not buried over here in section 61. The majority are. We don't even talk about that. Now. Let's talk about those are serving in the community. I heard you guys talking about this earlier when I came in. They don't feel the right to they don't feel like I need to tell my story. I don't I don't want to tell the story.
01:49:34:16 - 01:49:48:19
Speaker 2
You know, I agree. We need to engage them prior to their separation. So they tell their stories. Nobody's better diminishment of service and sacrifice than the veterans of their families is hit me square in the face in 2016 when I started working on this. And these are friends of mine, right? I bled and cried with these guys. Right.
01:49:48:19 - 01:50:08:19
Speaker 2
And, And so how are you doing that? We don't need that. Why why why why why. And then I was I was like, I was like, what do you mean? I know why I'm doing it. I'm doing it for my 56 friends aren't here anymore. I'm doing it for their families. I'm doing it for the families that have yet to to to give to this nation because the war of terrorism still going on.
01:50:08:21 - 01:50:25:07
Speaker 2
Right. A little more kinetic now it's going to even flow. But it's still going on whether people like it or not. I don't engage in policy or politics. I didn't write the policy. They sent me to war. The when my children war, my son, the war. I talk about people in patriotism, my for peace. Right. So I want to tell the whole story.
01:50:25:09 - 01:50:40:17
Speaker 2
But in addition to that, I want to tell the story about the families, because more difficult deployment for me was when I'm standing at Green Ramp at Fort Bragg, where everyone deploys, is the chute shed. It's all ceremonial. They have the plane sitting right there and we're, you know, and you give them that hug of hope, hoping it's not the last hug.
01:50:40:19 - 01:50:57:12
Speaker 2
And then you watch your loved one going into the bird. So I'm sitting on a green ramp. I'd been medically retired, and they were Kelly, you know the monsters. Mom. Mama. Rod. Right. And she's still active duty. And we're watching our young 18 year old 82nd airborne enrichments son deployed in the Helmand province of Afghanistan, one of the most inhospitable places on this planet.
01:50:57:12 - 01:51:16:14
Speaker 2
I'm in a lot of places. And Helmand is. And he was going there to do the quick Reaction Force mission. He's going to fight. I know that that's what he's going to do. There's always fighting. They throw you guys at it and hope for the best. So as I give him that hug hole as the patriarch of our family, I'm trying to present that strength and I'm like, oh man, I'm like falling apart inside.
01:51:16:16 - 01:51:37:01
Speaker 2
And I'm thinking, I wish my dad felt like when I deployed to Somalia, maybe nice for you and in my subsequent deployments of my career. And then I started thinking more. I'm like, there's no way my dad would do that was like, I see watch me graduate airborne school and go fight the Vietcong or my grandfather's watch. My father complete his artillery training for Oklahoma and go fight Nazis from the Pacific.
01:51:37:03 - 01:51:53:20
Speaker 2
So I see that and so much striking when that tells you the length of this war, the complexities. But I also want to recognize the families right before tenants that I wrote in 2018, when I step in leadership position to keep me on, as with my North Star, first one being honor. So that white star you see right there is where this memorial will be built.
01:51:53:20 - 01:52:16:14
Speaker 2
When we passed the impossible Bill, now, the second tenant I'm going to touch on, he'll he'll this objective term, it could mean personally. Look, I mean emotionally physically it could mean relationship wise. It could mean as a community could mean as a nation. He'll remember I said, this is art. It's open to interpretation. Q we got to focus on that.
01:52:16:16 - 01:52:38:16
Speaker 2
The third thing I touched on briefly in power, great word, but I want to those that have given so much to feel valued, to make them feel like their story matter. Because again, the people that are pushing back the most were those I was trying to honor. So I started asking the question and they say, no. I said, all right, do you know someone that didn't come home because their family deserve it?
01:52:38:18 - 01:52:56:20
Speaker 2
Or maybe you saw someone come home and lose the war at home to suicide? Like seven of my friends, or to some mysterious illness that they probably should not have gotten? Do they deserve it? And they be like, hell yeah. Heck yeah, they know it. Okay, good. Stop right there. You think about them because I'm thinking about you, and that reframes it.
01:52:56:20 - 01:53:24:04
Speaker 2
But really, that little thing I just explained to you guys there captures why people raise our hand, right hand and serve in uniform or out of uniform. And that way they're we shan't do it for money, not for self-aggrandizement. They don't know who we are. And that's majority don't even want to tell their stories. Because like my first appointment, when you go and you see that, you see certain things, I'm not worthy like I can, I tell that look at these people that are suffering.
01:53:24:08 - 01:53:44:02
Speaker 2
So most humble people you meet are those that have seen the chaos, those types of situations. So I wanted to empower them. I wanted to bring their voices. So we had a 23 member design advisory council. After we secured the artist to sit and listen as a vessel of the voice, I told them, I said, look, sit on your hands, put pencils away.
01:53:44:02 - 01:54:04:05
Speaker 2
I need you to understand our population. So for a period of about almost two years, they sat with these design advisory Council members. And the board members in that were veterans, combat veterans. And they listened because when inspired artists will create brilliance. So I sat and they listen and they listen. But in addition to that, I wanted to be sure I captured the voice of America.
01:54:04:05 - 01:54:18:14
Speaker 2
So I started getting data, qualitative, quantitative data that I would need to give to a designer in space. You want to flag, you want water, but also ask questions like what you want to feel, what do you want to learn? What do you want to take away? We had about 200. It was just me and a clipboard, right?
01:54:18:14 - 01:54:32:19
Speaker 2
And we went digital with it and it was a 5 to 7 miniature we blasted out called App Design History, and within a period about five months had the goal of capturing voices from all 50 states and all the services. That was all I had hoped for. And you have to put their name. We don't ask for names.
01:54:32:19 - 01:54:53:13
Speaker 2
I just wanted whatever demographic information they wanted to share to include the periods of service. 20,000 people fill out this 5 to 7 minute survey from all 50 states, every, service and every veteran generation from World War Two to today. And what's beautiful is, if you look at these things, there's it wasn't just checking the block. The there was some substance in there.
01:54:53:15 - 01:55:11:19
Speaker 2
They all sound the same. So that shows the love for those. So I wanted to bring that here. The voice. So those that do serve, those that have given so much and those that we've launched and their families will feel valued. I think the greatest asset we have as humans are those that are willing to step forward and serve in some capacity.
01:55:11:21 - 01:55:28:06
Speaker 2
And if we have those that are willing to put their lives on the line, I mean, we wouldn't be here. And that's what creates this bubble, allows us to have opportunities like this, but it bubbles fragile. We need to make sure we respect the bubble, honor it, but we have to understand how important that is, even though we can see through it.
01:55:28:08 - 01:55:45:10
Speaker 2
Right? So if someone is seen and heard, they're going to feel valued. If someone feels valued, I know what they probably won't do is take their lives and look to history. The shoulders I stand on to figure this plan out and what you guys are hearing. The I know is written on my whiteboard I wrote about eight years ago contingencies all over the place.
01:55:45:10 - 01:56:02:13
Speaker 2
Right. But if we think about the Vietnam Memorial, when it was built historically, the the three soldiers weren't part of the initial design. That was somewhat of an afterthought or in addition to. But it's three men nine years later. Okay. Let's recognize the women that served. It's just a very emotional. They're all emotional. There's something about that.
01:56:02:13 - 01:56:17:17
Speaker 2
One is as a medic as well. I just like, oh, man, squeezes my heart. What about those veterans that we are losing to the war at home? My father thankfully. So let us be fighting Agent Orange every day. Some of his friends aren't here anymore. And. And him and I share commonality. We have friends who have killed themselves.
01:56:17:19 - 01:56:35:11
Speaker 2
Okay, now let's put a plaque on the ground in the corner that no one even notices or sees for different efforts. I just wanted to all at once to recognize and honor everyone that has served, but to show the commonalities between us all. And I'm gonna share a design element with you guys, because I took a deep dive on this.
01:56:35:13 - 01:56:55:22
Speaker 2
So some of the earliest recorded evidence of man are footprints. There's some footprints in New Mexico, and they tell a story. So when you guys do visit this memorial, you'll be greeted by footprints. These footprints are going to tell a story. You're going to see footprints. You're going to see women's footprints. Now you can see boot prints, but there's going to be differentiation.
01:56:55:23 - 01:57:12:20
Speaker 2
There's going to be steel inside those footprints depicting the weight of war. And there's several sets of footprints that we're going to have. But then you're going to see if the footprints stop and they're steel. We lost them at more male and female. But you're also going to see families walking side by side. And then a Father's Day.
01:57:12:22 - 01:57:32:03
Speaker 2
The family keeps going. You also going to see those that are walking, recognizing the word home. Empty footprints, filled footprints, empty footprints next to footprints. Because that's the law that took them. So those are some of the design elements as you're going to see, that will be unveiling actually here pretty soon. That's, you know, part of part of the empowerment and telling them now unite with the fourth tenant.
01:57:32:03 - 01:57:57:08
Speaker 2
Now I'll close on this if you will say, diversity is our strength. I would strongly disagree. The most diverse organization you can find is is the military, without question. But what makes them strong? The unity. It's not a diversity. It's a factor. Of course, I'm not ignoring the. But what makes this nation strong is our unity. Everybody remember September 11th, we're coming on the 25th anniversary, but also everybody remember September 12th and how we felt as a nation.
01:57:57:08 - 01:58:14:09
Speaker 2
That's unity. That's our strength. It's not diversity. Yes. It's a factor in like diminishing that or saying it's not a thing, but our strength is in our unity. And that's the one of the things we hope to capture with this. So now that I told you that, we're going to be unveiling the design here, pretty soon, you'll have a chance to see it.
01:58:14:10 - 01:58:24:12
Speaker 2
And I'm going to make sure it's a, a YouTube live thing. Right, so everyone can see it. So that's all I got. And I've been talking way too long at this point. I think I went over time. So thank you guys very much.
01:58:24:13 - 01:58:46:22
Speaker 1
You can see why introducing him is so difficult. You just needed to hear him. I do a lot of leadership work, and one of the things I often say, it's not what you do, it's who you are, what you do it. That's important. And as I was sitting and listening to you, rod and I see the values come up, it really put this day together for me because as we see everybody sitting here, we're inspired by values.
01:58:47:00 - 01:59:19:21
Speaker 1
But the most important thing is integrity. And I think that's what it takes when we do commemoration is integrity, and integrity is acting for the sake of the action, not the outcome. We don't know where we're going, we don't know the future. But if we inform it by our values, that integrity we can't do wrong. I just encourage you to live those values, act in alignment with those values for the sake of the action and all those we remember and came before us.
01:59:19:23 - 01:59:39:06
Speaker 1
Thanks so much for tuning in. Story. Behind the Stone is available on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, and on the Rise Across America Radio Network on iHeartRadio. Audacity and tune in to search for wreath. We air every Thursday at 10 a.m. eastern on the Red Cross Radio Network. Thank you for tuning in.