Road To Your Name - Season 7, Episode 4: A conversation about land with Katsi'tsakwas Ellen Gabriel and Sean Carleton, authors of When The Pine Needles Fall

Reclaiming the Narrative — Katsi’tsakwas Ellen Gabriel & Sean Carleton on When the Pine Needles Fall

Road to Your Name | Season 7:  Episode 4
This episode was recorded in December 2024.

Episode Description

In this episode, Lisa sits down with two co-authors of a landmark new book: Katsi’tsakwas Ellen Gabriel, Kanien’kehá:ka (Mohawk), Turtle Clan, from Kanehsatà:ke — land defender, filmmaker, artist, and human rights activist — and Sean Carleton, settler historian and professor of History and Indigenous Studies at the University of Manitoba.

Their book, When the Pine Needles Fall: Indigenous Acts of Resistance (Between the Lines, 2024), is the first account of the 1990 Kanehsatà:ke Resistance told from Ellen’s own perspective. Written as a conversation, it traces her life before and after the 78-day standoff — when Mohawk land defenders stopped the municipality of Oka from bulldozing a cemetery to expand a golf course — and her decades of advocacy since.

What emerges is a conversation about what the media got wrong in 1990, the central and largely erased role of women in the resistance, what it means to hold land as identity rather than resource, and why Ellen believes the international stage — not Canadian courts or legislatures — is where Indigenous sovereignty must be defended. This is a conversation about truth-telling, the long work of decolonization, and what it means to live a life committed to the land and to future generations.

What We Talk About

• How the book came to be — Sean meeting Ellen during his PhD work and proposing a conversation-based format to uplift her voice and reclaim her own narrative
• What the media got wrong in 1990: the resistance was not a “warrior society” story — it was women, children, and elders defending their home, and women went to the front three times when police arrived
• How the focus on men in camouflage made it easier for governments and media to label land defenders as terrorists and obscure the real issue: 270 years of land theft
• The role of women as title holders to the land in Haudenosaunee governance — and why any negotiation over land must go through the women
• How colonization deliberately undermined the political authority of Indigenous women, including through imposing band council systems and patriarchy
• The windows of opportunity — and dysfunction — during the 1990 negotiations, and Ellen’s direct account of what it felt like to have weapons pointed at her community while the government said it wouldn’t negotiate “with a gun to its head”
• Self-care during crisis: what survival looks like when there is no time for it, and the elders who helped Ellen stay grounded
• Sean’s framing of his role: not ally, but “co-conspirator” and “uplifter” — and how the Two-Row Wampum offers a model for non-Indigenous people in this work
• Ellen’s quote from the book: “For Onkwehon:we peoples, the land is precious and priceless. It contains all aspects of our identity.” — and what that means for Haudenosaunee language, clan systems, and relationship to all of creation
• Deskaheh’s 1923 journey to Geneva and why Ellen continues that tradition of international advocacy at the United Nations — including the push for Indigenous nations to have permanent observer status
• Why Canada’s domestic record means the international level is the only viable arena for protecting Indigenous rights
• Ellen’s art practice as survival — meditative, absorbing, and a thread of continuity throughout decades of hard work
• Sean’s reflection on becoming a new father during the book’s release, and how it sharpened his sense of responsibility to build a different world
• Ellen’s current work: a third documentary about Kahnawake’s support during the 1990 resistance, and her continued work on land defense, climate, and youth mentorship

About the Book

When the Pine Needles Fall: Indigenous Acts of Resistance by Katsi’tsakwas Ellen Gabriel with Sean Carleton (Between the Lines, September 2024). With a foreword by Pamela Palmater and afterword by Audra Simpson. The book has been longlisted for CBC Canada Reads and Ellen’s companion documentary film Kanà:tenhs – When The Pine Needles Fall won Best Canadian Short Film at the International First Peoples Festival and has been recognized at over 30 festivals in a dozen countries.

Guests

Katsi’tsakwas Ellen Gabriel — Kanien’kehá:ka (Mohawk), Turtle Clan, Kanehsatà:ke. Spokesperson for the Kanien’kehá:ka community during the 78-day Kanehsatà:ke Resistance of 1990. Documentarian, visual artist, Indigenous human rights and environmental rights activist. Former President of Quebec Native Women. Board member of the National Executive Steering Committee for Indigenous Climate Action. 2024 Grand Prix recipient from the Conseil des arts de Montréal — the first Indigenous artist to receive the prize in its 38-year history.

Sean Carleton — Settler historian and professor of History and Indigenous Studies at the University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Treaty 1 Territory. His research examines the history of colonialism, capitalism, and schooling in Canada. Author of Lessons in Legitimacy: Colonialism, Capitalism, and the Rise of State Schooling in British Columbia (UBC Press, 2022).

Resources Mentioned

• When the Pine Needles Fall: Indigenous Acts of Resistance — available from Between the Lines Press and wherever books are sold
• Kanà:tenhs – When The Pine Needles Fall — Ellen’s award-winning documentary film (2022)
• Strong Spirits — Ellen’s first documentary film, on Indian Residential Schools in Canada (DOC NYC 2021)
• The Women’s Nomination Belt — Haudenosaunee wampum belt referenced in conversation
• Deskaheh’s 1923 mission to Geneva and the League of Nations
• UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples
• Aboriginal Legal Services — aboriginallegal.ca
• Support the show: click Donate at the top of the ALS homepage
• Facebook: Road to Your Name

Update:  Katsi'ksakwas Ellen Gabriel recently participated on the panel of judges of the 57th session of The Permanent Peoples' Tribunal (PPT) on Indigenous Children held in Montreal from May 25-29, 2026. (permanentpeoplestribunal.org)

Road to Your Name is produced by Aboriginal Legal Services and hosted by Lisa VanEvery, Mohawk Nation, Wolf Clan. Recorded on Haudenosaunee territory with technical assistance from True Seed Media. Niá:when for listening.

Creators and Guests

Host

Lisa VanEvery

Lisa has worked for Aboriginal Legal Services for sixteen years. She began hosting the Road To Your Name Podcast in December 2020.

What is The Road to Your Name Podcast?

The Road To Your Name Podcast series grew out of a program started by Aboriginal Legal Services (ALS) in 2016 that helped people going through the justice system and their families to strengthen and deepen their cultural connections. Host, Lisa VanEvery, examines many aspects of Haudenosaunee culture and teachings with a wide range of guests.

RTYN Season 7, Episode 4: Katsi'tsakwas Ellen Gabriel and Sean Carleton
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[00:00:00] Greetings everyone. Welcome to the Yoha:te ne kahsen:na, The Road to Your Name podcast, focusing on Haudenosaunee cultural topics recorded on Haudenosaunee territory.

These podcasts are produced by Aboriginal Legal Services with the technical assistance of True Seed Media. My name is Lisa VanEvery from the Mohawk Nation and the Wolf Clan. I'm the coordinator of the Yoha:ten ne kahsen:na, The Road to Name program and the host of the podcast

This is the Yoha:te ne kahsen:na: The Road to Your Name podcast series[00:01:00]

On this episode of Yoha:te ne kahsen:na, The Road to Your Name. are co-authors of When the Pine Needles Fall: Indigenous Acts of Resistance, Katsi'tsakwas, Ellen Gabriel, and Sean Carleton. Welcome to the podcast today, both of you. Thanks for having us. Thanks for having us. Okay. Well, this was a unique book in, uh, in the way it was written.

Um, I- we don't come across this type of, um, format too often, and I'd just like to ask, um, first you, Sean, how did you get involved with, uh, um, writing this book, and how did you decide on this format? Or was it you or both of you [00:02:00] decided? Yeah, thank you. Um, well, I had the opportunity to meet Ellen, um, when I was doing my PhD in Peterborough, Ontario.

She was giving a talk on, um, the ongoing, uh, land theft in, in her community. Um, and, um, at the time, I was working for a magazine called Canadian Dimension, and, uh, I reached out to her after the talk, um, and offered the opportunity to do an interview talking, uh, and uplifting her voice. And, um, anyone that's had the opportunity to speak with Ellen knows that she's a brilliant, amazing, uh, smart person, and, uh, the interview was fascinating.

Um, and at some point, I had said to her, "Wow, you know, have, have you ever thought of writing a book?" And she said, um I have, but, you know, things keep getting in the way, and the things that keep getting in the way are her amazing activism and all the things that she, she does. [00:03:00] Um, so I suggested, uh, you know, the opportunity to continue our conversation, uh, as a way to, you know, help her share, uh, the lessons of, of, of her, her life, uh, and the activism that she does, um, that's so inspiring.

And so that explains both my involvement as well as the format of the book, which is really about a, a conversation, uh, of uplifting Ellen's voice in particular to, to share her own narrative. Um, and I'm very honored, uh, to be part of the pr- project in a very small way. Mm. That's really interesting. And Ellen, I know that, um, um, you've been to our community before, Six Nations of the Grand River, when we've had our, um, issues with, with, um, land.

And I know you've been working with, in this area for a very, very long time. Um, did you also think, "Well, maybe it's time I wrote a book about it"? [00:04:00] Uh, well, yes and no. I mean, what I wanted to talk about our stuff, um, to, to, to reclaim the narrative that was taken away, uh, by us, by government, by the media's framing it of, uh, of, of just a warrior society rather than the communities, uh, the people in the community that were involved.

And so for, for me, I, there's a lot of misconceptions about what happened at that time, and that really formed, um, the trajectory of, of my life afterwards. So I thought it was really important for me to, to at least write down some of my, my thoughts, my stories, uh, the work that I've done because it's ... My work didn't stop in 1990.

It just kept going, uh, in, in various forms of advocacy. So, um, I want to leave ... I wanted to leave something that, uh- Future generations and this generation will be able to, to learn something from and to maybe get something out of it [00:05:00] in, uh, in the fact that, you know, we are still struggling for our land.

We're, we're... You know, our land are not protected. You may... There may be reserves, but they're still chipping away at that. And then, you know, there's the issue of land back. You know, we, we don't- Mm-hmm ... we don't just want the pieces of reserve that they created for us centuries ago. We want, we want our land back, and, and we need to have a discussion about that.

So that's what I was kinda hoping people would get out of the book to, to be inspired to continue the work. Now, you mentioned that there was, um, misconceptions g- along the way. And what do you think one of the main misconceptions, um, that you wanted to clarify in the book is? Well, I j- I just mentioned that.

You know, it wasn't just warriors with weapons. It was women, children, elders. Uh, we were in the community. Uh, you know, a lot of elders said, "You know, this is my home. I was born and raised here. I'm not leaving m- just 'cause the army's coming in. And if they're gonna kill me, I'm gonna die in my home." Um, [00:06:00] a- a- and so, you know, the media focused on the guys with weapons which helped justify the violence, the, the potential violence that, you know, Canada and Quebec wanted to inflict upon us.

Um, but that it wasn't just, it wasn't just about the warriors. It became a distraction about the land, you know, and how that land was stolen from us. So I, I really wanted to be able to, to teach people that this was not a warrior society issue. They flew their flag, and there were people who came in as, as members of the warrior society.

But, you know, at that time, you know, we, if you remember, Wet'suwet'en was having a civil war. And so, um When we were talking about the land, we said, you know, we don't want people to come in as warriors because maybe some people who wanna fight for the land, uh, are afraid of it or they're not, they don't agree with it.

There's differences. So we had asked all the people from the Confederacy to come in as citizens of the Haudenosaunee, of the, the [00:07:00] Confederacy, not the labels, uh, that we give ourselves. And, um, and what, what ended up happening was that, uh, the role of the women was quickly forgotten. The role of the women who went to the front three times when the police, the, the paramilitary squad arrived.

Nobody knows about that story, so I made a film about it. And just the misconceptions about, you know, uh, the only warriors are men warriors, and these warriors, uh, that, that people wanna say are warriors, uh, they consulted with the women all summer on what to do, so the women were leading, and that's not really well known in, in the, in the grand scheme of things.

You know, Alanis's film is, is okay, um, and people think that's the end-all and be-all, but, you know, she just touched a small tip of the iceberg. She really focused on, on the militarization of the resistance rather than the resistance that's been going on for centuries by using our ceremonies, [00:08:00] trying to use discussion, and that, you know, the, this kind of action that we did in 1990, that was a last resort because the government was not listening.

So I think there's a lot of things that people need to learn about that time, uh, that I think is, you know, still remains as part of that stereotype, this machismo, uh, BS, uh, that, that people have with that now we see, you know, people thinking, saying they're warriors, but they're actually thugs. So it's, um You know, we've, we've evolved into a place where I think it hasn't been healthy, at least for our communities.

Yeah. Um, I think that you've touched on something that from the Western p- perspective is really foreign to people, and I'd like to get Sean's, um, perspective on this. From the Western perspective, um, women having such a major role in political decisions and defending land, um, uh, [00:09:00] people don't really understand that concept, do they?

No, I mean, I, I learned a lot from Ellen, um, i- in, in this project of how, um, you know, as part of the process of colonization, it was also about undermining the roles of women, of imposing the band council and patriarchy, um, and, and minimizing the role of women as title holders to the land. And I think, um, Ellen's work, her film, her award-winning film, and the work that she does in this book cre- corrects that narrative.

Uh, it recenters the role of women, uh, in, in the resistance of 1990. Um, and also I think highlights why, um, you know, in, in many ways, um, you know, the work, the work that she, she does in this book is also shows how journalists wanted to focus on, on men and the military and the, and the machismo as she's talking about, because it's, it's much easier to discredit, um- you know, men [00:10:00] with guns in camo and, and, um, you know, to, to, uh, you know, kind of characterize this as, as terrorists rather than, you know, women, uh, defending the land and, and pointing out this 270 years at the time, uh, of resistance to, to land theft.

You know, like, Ellen is very clear that that got lost, um, uh, in, in the media coverage because, because it's very convenient to, to characterize land defenders as terrorists, et cetera, right? Um, and, and that, um, you know, allowed the core issue of this to get lost. Um, and I think that part of why this book is important, uh, is it, it not only corrects that narrative, uh, but it challenges, uh, the erasure o- of women in, uh, in defending the land and, uh, why that is, is, is so important.

And I think it's also has to do with, um, people not knowing the [00:11:00] history. I mean, when, when the Haudenosaunee went to help the, um, the leadership of the United States in helping them form their own constitution, um, we explained to them the role of women, but they conveniently left that out of their constitution.

So it goes all the way back to they knew when they formed their own country of the United States. Yeah, I mean, I think- Exactly. Their democracy's a fascist, it's a fascist state. You know, they, they, they evolved into a fascist state, so they, they really didn't listen- No, they didn't listen at all ... to us. But I, I think, you know, for, for, uh, being Indigenous women, it, it's hard to be taken seriously, unless we're talking about domestic issues, right?

Um, violence against women, murdered and missing Indigenous women. People don't think about Indigenous women as being equal partners, uh, in our governance, our traditional governing systems, um, our role, our authority. And, um, you know, we, we have, we have centuries of [00:12:00] historical propaganda to, um, dispel, uh, when it comes to, um- People understanding that, you know, we are equal partners to, to the men in this, in this democracy.

And not, you know, we're not just cooks in the cookhouse. Mm-hmm. That's right. We play an important role in the decision-making processes. And, you know, we have a lot of work to do in decolonizing even the longhouse, because some of those patriarchal values have entered the longhouse. So, uh- Yeah ... it's up to us women and to get the men.

Um, there's still a lot of men who understand that the role of the women is to protect the land, that we are title holders to the land. And any government who wants to negotiate, uh, on the issue of land must go through the women. And, and that's, that's not being supported as much as it should be. And we even have a wampum belt that, um, tells that story.

You know? The, the Women's Nomination Belt. [00:13:00] Um, one thing I wanted to get into is some of the, um, ins and outs of a, of a land, um- events such as this, and, um, 'cause we went through our own in 2006, and, uh, I wanted to ask you, Ellen, um, when you were in the thick of things going through everything, did you, did you feel that, um, looking back, did you feel that there were certain windows that opened for you, opportunities per se, and then they would close?

Because that's what I felt when we were going through ours. During the summer, right in the thick of things, right, like minute by minute, um, yeah, I felt there were certain windows of opportunity that opened, and then if you didn't take them, they closed. There, there weren't really too many windows, to be honest with you.

No? I think s- there was too many, uh, there, there were, there was too many c- cooks stirring the pot, I think. [00:14:00] Yeah. Yeah. And s- there were people there who had their own agendas, so it didn't really... Th- that's why we lost the focus, um, and, you know, when the government said, uh, towards the end of negotiations that they had bought the cemetery for a dollar from the Municipality of Oka, um, they, they, they hadn't, at that time when he announced it, they hadn't really had, uh, purchased the forest, but when they did, they said it was for our benefit and use.

They didn't say it was put in our name, right? So, um, there were, there were very few windows of opportunity. The whole, uh, part of negotiations was focused on the, uh, dismantling of the Mercier Bridge blockade. They didn't have the- Mm-hmm ... federal government representative, Bernard Roy, did not have a mandate to deal with the land, uh, because the government kept saying, "We will not negotiate at, at the, you know, with a gun to our heads," and, and I, I told them in, in no uncertain terms, "It's us [00:15:00] that have a gun to our head, not you.

You can go home safely. We're, we're, we're not sure if we'll, we'll go through the night." So all this was kind of like a tornado of dysfunction from the government side, and the, that couldn't control the SQ, the Sureté du Québec, uh, and the Sureté du Québec, who, who wanted vengeance for, for a crime that we did not commit.

So there was very few windows of opportunity, um, and the government was steadfast in saying that, uh, you know, the only way this is going to be resolved is if you give up your weapons, uh, walk out, and, um, there was never any promises of, of safety and security for the people. There was just, you know, the promise of arrests and, and what would happen later, but, uh, everybody was found not guilty.

Uh, except the ones who were, who were fighting, who beat up our own community members at, at that [00:16:00] time. So, uh, they had some, some prison time. Going through something like, like that event is, um, traumatizing in itself when you're dealing with, um, land theft to begin with, and then to have to go and defend the land.

Um, uh, you know, how did you, how did you take care of yourself throughout, through all of this? Uh, I had, I had some elders that, um, I leaned on and who supported me and, and just told me like, "No, you're not crazy. You're actually right." Uh, because we had people, like I said, people that came from other communities, some of them had, uh, different agendas.

And so I would need to debrief with them almost every night. Um, but, but you know, when you're, when you're, when you feel like your life is on the line on a daily basis, uh, you don't, you don't think about self-care. You just think about, "Okay, I have to eat now. Um, I have to take a shower now." Uh, those, those basic needs.

But, um, the [00:17:00] self-care came much later, not, not during that time, 'cause there was no time for it. And Sean, as a ally I guess, would you call yourself an ally? Um, I mean, uh, uh, I like co-conspirator. Uh, I like, uh, uh, personally. Um, but I mean, I, I think, I think the, the, the term ally, um, you know, Ellen talks a lot about in the book, um, kind of thinking about the Two E- Two-Row Wampum, um, and, and thinking maybe about that as a bit of a model of a, of a different kind of relationship, um, that, that perhaps non-Indigenous people if, if we could live up to, uh, and, and honor, um, right?

That, uh, you know, there's a responsibility I think, um, you know, i- in this work to make sure, uh, that I'm an uplifter. Uh, that, that's what I like to think, uh, of myself as. Um, you know, this is, this is helping to uplift El- Ellen's perspective, [00:18:00] um, and, and to help non-Indigenous people be able to actually listen to what Ellen is saying.

Um, because I think if they did, uh, we would be in a better, we would certainly be in a better position. And, and as you say, um- Trying to help people, non-Indigenous people listen and understand, do you find that you get, um, is there a lot of, um, resistance, um, from non-Indigenous people that you're finding or, or is it har- is it difficult for them to understand what's going on?

I mean, I think the people that we've talked to so far have been very enthusiastic about listening to Ellen and, and hearing her perspective, which, um, I learned first when I was teaching, uh, about the, the summer of 1990, um, where, you know, a lot of people, you know, they, they see Ellen, Ellen Isabomswen's film.

It's a powerful film, but as Ellen's pointed out, it, it, it It has some good things to it, but it [00:19:00] also perpetuates, I think, a narrative, uh, that minimizes the role of women. It doesn't talk as much about the history. Um, and so when I was able to bring, for example, Ellen into the classroom, my students were like, "Wow," you know, like, "Why didn't we learn more about that?

Why..." You know, like I, I say this often, but, um, as a historian, when I was looking more, uh, closely into the summer of 1990, um, you know, there were a lot of books by people not, not Ellen, right? Tom Siddon, who was the, the, the minister, uh, the federal minister for Indian Affairs, um, he has a book. John Ciaccia, who Ellen does speak somewhat positively about, uh, was the, the minister of, uh, of Indian Affairs for Quebec.

He has a book. Uh, Tom Siddon, who was one of the, or, um, um, uh, one of the, the, the more prominent, um, journalists, right, he wrote a book. But all of these [00:20:00] don't talk about the issues, uh, as Ellen does as the spokesperson from her perspective. And I think that it is important to learn directly from people who are defending the land rather than through the lens of, you know, even historians such as myself.

You know, it's important to have that direct connection to people who have those experiences. We learn a lot, uh, by why people are doing this. Um, and, and I think, um, non-Indigenous people in particular will be really inspired by the things that Ellen says. That if you care about the world that you depend on for survival, we need to make some different kinds of choices about our priorities.

Colonialism and capitalism and resource extraction is hurting all of us, and when Indigenous people like Ellen and others stand up for the land, they're standing up for everyone. And we need to find ways to work in solidarity, uh, with people [00:21:00] who are trying to protect the world from the harm that our society, uh, is doing, not only to u- to us as, as humans, but Ellen talks about this, right, uh, but to all our relations, right?

And, and thinking about why that kind of paradigm shift is so important, not just for Indigenous people, uh, but for everyone that, that, um, relies on this earth for survival. And I think Um, Ellen, you know, is, is so brilliant and speaks so eloquently. Um, and hopefully that, um, I think non-Indigenous people will learn a lot, um, from this book and, and hopefully be inspired, uh, to work in better relationship.

Mm-hmm. And I think it's, um, you know, when we talk about the land, um, w- we're coming at it from two different worldviews, the Indigenous worldview of land and the, and the Western worldview of land. Two different, um, ways of thinking about land. And w- here's one of the quotes that I really, um, liked in the book that Ellen [00:22:00] said.

You said, um, "For Onkwehonwe peoples, the land is precious and priceless. It contains all aspects of our identity." And I think that sentence really says it all when we're describing our worldview, our, our, um, relationship and our connection to the land. And, um Can you, can you kind of expand on that a little bit, Ellen?

Yeah. I mean, if we look at, um, Haudenosaunee culture, uh, just look at the clan system. You know, we come from, um, Turtle Clan. Uh, and then the, the, the, just the traditional governance is based where we are representing some of our relations, the, for either four-leggeds or, you know, we have some that are, uh, are not.

But, um, our, our language is based on that relationship with the land, you know, Mother Earth, uh, our elder brother, the sun. Um, all those things that, that teach us to have a good relationship with others, [00:23:00] uh, other beings. Uh, those relationships with, uh, the earth, the water, the sky, the fish, et cetera, you know?

And, and the way we give something back, whether people are hunting or medicines and stuff from the land and all those, those, those things that we mention in Haudenosaunee , you know, those, those are the things that helped our people survive all these years of, of genocide and oppression. And so, um, the, the earth, you know, we are not separate from the earth, as you said.

There's the Western view of the land, and then there's our view of the land. And, and we say that we're just part of the whole life, uh, creation, um, and that we need to, you know, to take what we need. You know, that one dish, one spoon, uh, sort of philosophy, uh, that, you know, the, the earth is not a commodity.

The earth is, is who helps us, uh, eat, drink, uh, have our [00:24:00] medicines. Um, and, and so we need to respect that. And in that way, I think that's why it's so precious because we are so dependent upon the land. When we don't have those things, we die. So sort of get out of that Western mentality of looking at the land strictly as, as a resource development to make money, and then the, the land is spoiled.

You know, for, for us, we're supposed to protect the land and ensure that future generations are able to enjoy that land. And, and I think we've, we've, we're sort of getting away from that. We've assimilated capitalism into, into our, our cultures now. And so we need to get back to that sort of teaching that tells us, um, we need to be respectful when we use the land, and we need to honor the land in, in various ways.

Mm-hmm. And I don't know if we, if, um, uh, the rest of the world can change their, um, perspective in time. I mean, [00:25:00] um, we're up against time right now, they say, the climate people and the environmentalists. Um- And, um, our mother is trying so desperately to heal herself in various parts, and we don't know if, if she'll be successful or not, but she is trying to heal herself.

Um, now with your work, um, you've taken your work into a international realm. Alan, can you talk a little bit about that, um, going to the United Nations, and what do you think, um, and the things have been accomplished there? Are they listening? Yeah, I think, you know, when, when I was first, um, being tutored or mentored by, by an elder, he, he told me, he says, "You know, our rights are at the international level because we are sovereign nations, and as such, we are entitled to all those international human rights instruments."

And he believed this long before anybody talks what's [00:26:00] doing the working group or, uh, drafting the U- the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples. You know, as peoples, and, and I say peoples with an S because S means self-determining, um, it is important for us to continue to hold Canada and the United States' feet to the fire and honor those human rights obligations so that we can recover from the genocide that's been happening.

And that's only done at the international level because if we look at Canada's domestic record, they don't care. They pass bills, um, whereby they, they will not change them. They're, they're re- they're written, and then they ask for witnesses. So we cannot depend on go- on the Canadian government or, or its provinces, uh, to be forthright, to be honest, to have good faith and goodwill.

And in the international level, we see other indigenous peoples, their plight, their struggles, and it brings us into a network of indigenous people where we can support each other and the work we [00:27:00] do. Uh, but also it, it, it also is a way for us to, um- To continue the work that Deskaheh started in 1923 when he went to Geneva to, to have the Haudenosaunee be part of the League of Nations.

So as sovereign nations, not First Nations, as sovereign nations, with that right to have the language, the culture, the land base, uh, the traditional governing structures, we are a nation. And, um, the international level is where, where we feel that. And so much has been accomplished. Right now they're negotiating, uh, on, um, Indigenous peoples' traditional governments having a non-state, um, observer status as the, the State of Palestine has, as an observer, permanent observer status.

And that's, that's what we need because other... Right now we're at the NGO, and we're, we're more than an NGO. We have more rights than an NGO in that sense. So the international work is [00:28:00] extremely important for us to continue the success we're having here in Canada. Um, United States, of course, that's a very different, scary situation by itself.

Um, but it's, it's just as important as the work that's being done here domestically. Mm-hmm. Um, now with this book, um, Sean, have you been, have you been going on a book tour of sorts? Or are you gonna be using this book in your teaching, um, that you do? Yeah, well, um, you know, part, part of the promise of working with Ellen was that if we were gonna, uh, gonna make the book, um, and it took, took a number of years, uh, I, I thought it would be very quick, but it is a long process.

Um, and, and more wanted to make sure that, that every detail was right, uh, because books are forever. You, you, you can't publish them and then take them back. So it was really important to make sure that Ellen was, was happy wi- with the book and, um, y- you know, I think as we started talking, there was [00:29:00] so much that, uh, that Ellen does, right?

I mean, we, we've talked about 1990. Uh, you know, she's also, you know, an artist. Um, y- she, you know, is a feminist activist. Uh, her work at the international ... There's a lot, right? Um, and so part of, um, you know, m- pushing the book out into the world was wanting to make sure that people could connect with the book.

Um, so we've done a number of launches, um, in, in Ellen's homeland. Um, she, w- w- we, we hosted, uh, here in Winnipeg before the snow fl- uh, flew. Uh, we got her out before the winter started. Uh, we've been to Toronto and Vancouver, and Ellen's done a number of other launches and will continue, um, you know, to talk to people about the book.

But then, you know, the next part of, uh, of the book's life will be, you know, uh, people teaching with the book. Uh, so I teach in history and indigenous studies, you know, uh, almost 300, 400 students a year. [00:30:00] Um, and, you know, a- a- and, and teaching w- with the book. Um, uh, you know, uh, adding Ellen's perspective to the historical understanding of not just 1990, uh, but the long history of colonization in Canada and its ongoing challenges, right?

Uh, the last chapter in the book is, is, is not about history. It's about the future and Ellen's hope for a better world. Um, and I think that this is, this is the exact kind of book that, that young people need today, right? There's so much that's dispiriting and discouraging about the world that we live in.

Uh, and yet, I don't know how, uh, if we could bottle it up, you know, we, we'd, we'd, you know, uh, have something really special to figure out how we can, you know, pass on Ellen's hope- Uh, to young people, to, to the future generations, um, that by working together of, of understanding, uh, this long history, uh, and, and the commitment that people like [00:31:00] Ellen have for the land and, and, um, and for all relations, if we worked in those ways, w- we would, we would see a better world for sure.

Um, and so I think the, the hope is that, uh, I often talk to Ellen, you know, that, that she does so much work, um, you know, she has written a, a number of, of, of pieces. Um, but books are forever, right? They're, they're in libraries. People use them. Um, and, and the hope is that, you know, when, when Ellen and I are long gone, um, this book will remain as a testament not only to what happened in the summer of 1990, but why a life lived in defense of the land and all relations is important.

Uh, that people understood that, and that Ellen, for me personally, is a role model, is someone to look up to, and, you know, to try to understand, you know, how, as a historian, I can help teach people, um, to, to live in ways that Ellen has, uh, to be [00:32:00] inspired, uh, to live, um, you know, a life, um, you know, as committed to those principles.

And I think, um, that talking to people, uh, during these launches and working with my students, uh, it makes me feel like this work, uh, will be impactful, not just now, but, uh, for future generations. And, um, that at, at least makes all the work, uh, that went into this book for me, uh, worth it, and I hope that, that, that Ellen feels similarly.

Yeah. Um, well, um, one of the quotes too that I really liked in, in the book is, um, Ellen, you say, "Colonialism is a sickness of the mind." I laughed when I read that, when I read that because, because, um, um, we, we don't really think of it so in our face like that until you say it, and then we're like, "Yeah, it is."

Um, um, so you really kind of, you know, you didn't pull any [00:33:00] punches with your, um, words in this book. You told it like it was, and, and, um, and, you know, that's hard to do sometimes. Yeah. Yeah, it is. I mean, that's ... I, I usually try to do that. I mean, there are moments where I bite my tongue and not say anything, but, uh, I think that's the only way

I, I mean, they talk about the only way reconciliation can begin is if we, if we do the truth telling, you know? And I, and I think that's what we need to do, is to be honest, uh, with each other about, um, our perspective. And we don't always have to agree, but we shouldn't go to the extreme where, uh, you know, if I disagree with you, I'm your enemy, that, that kind of thing.

So, you know, it is a sickness of the mind simply because some people think that they're more superior to others and that they have all the answers. Uh, so, um, you know, racism [00:34:00] is, is a disease of the mind. And there is a cure. For sure there is a cure. It's not, it's not a hopeless situation. But if we, if we look at it as, as a sickness of the mind simply because of the pain that it feels are not worthy or who, whose lives are not worthy, then yeah, we, we need to call it as it is and to, and to be able to say, um, to the government that, you know, we don't, we don't like your actions.

We, we, we're still trying to figure out how to be, uh, good neighbors with each other, but it's not working because, you know, I, I ... And I've said this to a few people and as I get older, I realize that diplomacy has, has given us nothing. You know, we ta- you know, the guys during the, the crisis, I was giving shit to, to the federal negotiator, and then someone from Kahnawake came along and said, "Oh, she doesn't know what she's saying.

She's ..." It's like I, I absolutely know what I bleeping, uh, am saying, you know? Do not apologize [00:35:00] on my behalf. You are the, not the ones that are sitting here with, with weapons at your heads. So, um, I, I think that sometimes diplomacy is not appropriate, uh, and that we do have to have strong language for, for the colonizer to, to understand.

Um, but yeah, diplomacy's , diplomacy's always the first thing you gotta try and do, but it's, like I said, it's not always possible. Mm-hmm. Yeah, um, I agree with that for sure. Um, so with your work as an artist, do you feel that, um, it balances out the hard work that you have to do with, um, um, being a land warrior, um, and sort of gives you a, a time to connect and, and, um, you know, um, for your mental health?

I mean, um, artistry is, is such an out- creative outlet. Yeah. I mean, it's something that I've always had in my life, and [00:36:00] I, I really enjoy it, and it's, it's very meditative. You know, I'll put on some music that I like and just, just, uh, get totally absorbed into this little bubble of creation, and, uh, it's something that I think that has helped me survive throughout this year.

Mm-hmm. So what is in the, in your, um, plan for the future now? Um, I'll start with you, Sean. What are your plans for the future? Well, um- I, I'm a new dad, uh, so p- part of, part of this process is, uh, uh, as this book c- uh, came out, uh, my, my daughter was born. Um, and you know, I think, um, it, it, it's been a really special time for me because it's changed, I think, my commitment to the world.

You know, I always wanted to build a better world. Um, but now with, with my daughter here, I, I feel that responsibility acutely. Um, you know, like what kind of, what kind of world am, am I leaving her? Um, [00:37:00] and I think, um, that for me, m- my future plans, uh, continue to help people understand people like Ellen because, um, i- if, if we were, uh, if we had the amount of, of courage, determination, brilliance that people like Ellen have, I really do feel like, you know, my daughter's generation will live in a different world, a better world.

Um, so my future plans are to continue to work to ensure that, that, you know, people have a good understanding of the history of the damage that colonialism and capitalism has done, um, so that we can continue to figure out how to build better relationships and, and try and heal the world that we depend on.

Um, so continuing, um, you know, to work with people like Ellen, um, to teach people, um, in particular non-Indigenous people, bringing them on board, being a, a role [00:38:00] model of, of how you can understand the past, uh, and, and confront and learn from it, uh, rather than continue to make the same mistakes over and over again.

As a historian, that's kind of what keeps me going on a day-to-day basis, is that we can learn from this. You know, if we can, uh, if we can get and, and learn from someone like Ellen, who kind of cuts through the BS and the myth and, and all of that, to actually learn the truth about the past, you know, I think we have a shot at developing a more honorable future.

Uh, but only if we listen, and we need people, um, you know, to help, uh, new generations learn, and as a historian, that's part of my, my responsibility. Mm. And what about you, Ellen? What's in store for you in the future? Uh, that's a good question. Uh, I'm s- I'm still working on my, my third documentary, which is about, um, excuse me, the story of Kahnawake and why they, they supported us in 1990, [00:39:00] and the, the issue of the land.

So I'm g- I'm just gonna continue what I've been doing for the last 34 years, uh, and hopefully include more of my art, um- You know, I'm at a, I'm at a point where, you know, being a documentarian has come late in my life, but it's, it's, um, I really enjoy doing it and, and storytelling I think is, is gonna continue to be part of, uh, of my future.

So, and, you know, just try and help and mentor youth, um, continue to work on, on the climate and the environmental issues and, uh, the land resistance, uh, the fight for, for justice for our people. Well, that's gonna take a lot of your time still I'm sure. Um, yeah it's not gonna happen overnight. Well, I, I wanna, um, say niá:wen to both of you for joining me on, um, the podcast today and, um, I wish you both like, [00:40:00] um, you know, great success in, in your endeavors in the future.

Yeah. Thanks, thanks so much Lisa. Always, uh, an honor to be, uh, in conversation with you, Ellen. Yeah. and, uh, Lisa, and, uh, I wish the same for you and your podcast and, uh, hopefully one day we'll meet. And, uh, thank you Sean for your kind words once again, uh, as always. Okay. Niá:wen and Onaki wahi. O:na

Nia:wen, thank you for listening to this episode of the Yoha:te ne kahsen:na The Road to Your Name podcast, which has been produced by Aboriginal Legal Services and hosted by me, Lisa VanEvery. There are 10 podcast episodes in each season. Let's meet again on the next episode. If you would like to learn more about our organization, Aboriginal Legal Services, and the programs and services we provide, please visit us at our [00:41:00] website, www.aboriginallegal.ca.

And if you feel inclined and would like to make a donation, you can click on the word Donate located at the top of the homepage of our website. You can also visit us on Facebook at Road to Your Name. This has been the Yoha:te ne kahsen:na: The Road to Your Name podcast