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What makes a good must-hire revenue leader? What sets them apart? And how can you spot the fake ones?
In this episode, Raul and Toni talk about their experiences in hiring the role, and what they think you should watch out for.
In this episode, Raul and Toni talk about their experiences in hiring the role, and what they think you should watch out for.
Creators & Guests
What is Revenue Brothers?
What happens when a VC and a CEO come together?
– They nerd out about all things revenue. And they don’t always agree.
Raul Porojan of Project A Ventures and Toni Hohlbein of Growblocks are the Super Revenue Brothers. In every episode they dissect and debate current issues in B2B SaaS, and offer solutions on how to solve them
No matter if you’re an early-stage startup or a scaling unicorn – you’ll always learn something new.
Introduction
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[00:00:00]
raul: If you come from Samsung or SAP and Siemens and all like [00:00:03] whatever these companies in Germany, wonderful, great companies, [00:00:06] you have no idea what the fuck limited resources means.
raul: You have [00:00:09] no idea. Just because your budget was cut once and you had to sit down and [00:00:12] make that work, that doesn't mean limited resources. The dude who came from SAP, [00:00:15] who says, Oh yeah, I built companies with limited [00:00:18] resources, that's not it. Toni, how's [00:00:21] it going? How are you today?
Toni: What a [00:00:24] great introduction, Raul, I love So first of all, [00:00:27] Raul invested in an actual [00:00:30] microphone now. So probably will people [00:00:33] hear now that role sounds different. It's because he actually has [00:00:36] upgraded his gear. Congratulations on that role.
raul: Yes. [00:00:39] Thank you. I'm a proper podcaster now. And I'm [00:00:42] also back to in my, my, my normal habitat now, [00:00:45] after all this year of traveling now, a little bit more saddled around in Berlin. [00:00:48] That's what I thought. It might make sense to get a really good setup now. [00:00:51] And there's also a lot happening around Berlin.
raul: So it's really [00:00:54] interesting to be here right now.
The SaaS events scene
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raul: I'm going to announce something maybe [00:00:57] in the next episode for what's going to happen with me, but there's also so many [00:01:00] events and everything, Toni what are you doing? What are you going to be in Berlin within [00:01:03] the next few weeks? So we're going to see each other.
Toni: I probably will be [00:01:06] actually. So I just talked to acquaintance of [00:01:09] both of us, like David He was just last week in [00:01:12] Berlin. There was some kind of a, I think, pavilion event, [00:01:15] then there's another event coming up and so forth. But I [00:01:18] think the big one you and I have top of mind is PACON, [00:01:21] right?
Toni: PACON24. And basically just for [00:01:24] everyone who doesn't know, it's the Project A [00:01:27] Knowledge Conference in the heart of Berlin. I think it's still [00:01:30] Kulturbrauerei, right? And oh, it's not, sorry. Where is it? [00:01:33] Where is it?
raul: So this year's format is going to be quite [00:01:36] different, right? So I was a part of project A for six years. So I saw all the [00:01:39] insights of that and how that grew this year for the first time, they're trying [00:01:42] something new, which is, it's going to be in 10 different [00:01:45] locations, I think because they're going to split it up into 10 different [00:01:48] hives it's called obviously I'm going to be in the sales revenue marketing [00:01:51] hive and you're probably going to be there too, but I don't [00:01:54] know where all the locations are.
raul: It's quite exciting, actually. I'm[00:01:57]
Toni: Are you going to speak actually? [00:02:00] Yeah.
raul: think so.
Toni: I will so if everyone wants [00:02:03] to see me on live on stage, please come join me. But there's [00:02:06] also, lots of other stuff actually happening in Berlin that kind of realized, I think [00:02:09] Berlin is blowing up as a revenue, [00:02:12] whatever you want to say, sales marketing, but it's starting to blow up a little bit [00:02:15] as a revenue spot to be at least for Germany.
raul: [00:02:18] What about like the other areas? Are you going Bits and Pretzels [00:02:21] and all the stuff happening now this year? We talked about this [00:02:24] exactly a year ago where you said you want to go on more [00:02:27] events.
Toni: Yeah, I did. Bits and pretzels. Don't get me wrong. I [00:02:30] think Andy is doing and Tim is doing great stuff there. I've [00:02:33] been there twice, been there to also see Obama, which [00:02:36] was their blowout year ever, by the [00:02:39] way. But otherwise in Germany, no, I'm not so sure. [00:02:42] And then I've been thinking about SaaStra and [00:02:45] inbound and, all of this stuff happening in the [00:02:48] US.
Toni: Let's see. I'm, Maybe I'm a more lazy person than I [00:02:51] sometimes let on, but
raul: Yeah, you've gotten
Toni: [00:02:54] Let's see
raul: What about, have you ever been on the Dreamforce San [00:02:57] Francisco event cloud thing? I don't know, whatever [00:03:00] happened to
Toni: at Sastra. I've been at Dreamfalls [00:03:03] is happening soon, I think. This is This is in full [00:03:06] force, but no, I've been to Sastra once or twice. [00:03:09] And that's fucking great. I can only recommend going to Sastra. I'm not [00:03:12] sure how Sastra Europe actually is.
Toni: But obviously [00:03:15] in San Francisco, you have like crazy speakers, like crazy [00:03:18] speakers. Which, which is difficult to match in Europe, obviously, [00:03:21] right? I think Jason Lemke and SaaS were doing a fantastic job [00:03:24] building this thing up over the last 10 15 years now, actually, right?
Toni: He [00:03:27] by now is the godfather of SaaS, clearly and I [00:03:30] think this is, probably, would still be my [00:03:33] preferred event in the US if I had to choose [00:03:36] one. I don't think I would go to Inbound and Dreamforce, the [00:03:39] HubSpot and Salesforce conferences. I [00:03:42] think the GTM from from [00:03:45] Pavilion, last time it was in, [00:03:48] forgot but that [00:03:51] Nashville, last time it was in Nashville, I'm not sure where it's going to be now, but [00:03:54] that stuff I think is cool.
Toni: Salesforce and this, I think this could [00:03:57] be cool. Otherwise, I wouldn't, I'm personally, maybe [00:04:00] as a founder, I should, but I personally I never liked this Web [00:04:03] Summit SaaS stock What is it? Lush? [00:04:06] Flush? Like in Finland. Not [00:04:09] slush. Sorry.
raul: Slash.
Toni: I'm not a big fan.
Toni: We [00:04:12] even have tap tech barbecue here in town, which is in this [00:04:15] realm. Probably not going to show, I'm probably going to meet with people that [00:04:18] come to town because of it, but probably not going to go to the conference. [00:04:21] I don't know. I'm not sure what it is. Like maybe I'm just a, like [00:04:24] a conference Grinch or something like
raul: [00:04:27] You're just a grumpy old man from [00:04:30] Copenhagen. You just want to sit around, be hygge after work and [00:04:33] chill with your family and go to your like [00:04:36] luxurious villa outside on the docks.
Toni: That's [00:04:39] exactly what it is. And don't bother me with, all this [00:04:42] traveling and so forth, maybe, you like you like a traveling bum, [00:04:45] people call like a surfer bum, like that's what they call, folks. [00:04:48] You don't surf necessarily. I think I'm, [00:04:51] podcast bum, I'm sitting on podcasts all day but otherwise I don't do [00:04:54] anything, that's what it is.
raul: Yeah don't bother me with that. I'm [00:04:57] just living the vagabond life, if you want to call it that [00:05:00] way.
What makes a good revenue leader?
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raul: We are, however also, [00:05:03] I'm thinking about how to do the transition now also revenue [00:05:06] leaders to some extent or call ourselves that. And [00:05:09] we've seen a lot of these impressive people over time, and we thought that [00:05:12] one thing that is, We've actually talked about this privately as well.
raul: Some [00:05:15] very impressive people and some very impressive things that we've seen, and I [00:05:18] think we want to talk about that a little bit today. And maybe as an inspiration for [00:05:21] you as well, just what is good leadership for [00:05:24] revenue? And what are maybe some of the most impressive people that we've [00:05:27] seen doing that's working really well, you've named some [00:05:30] names.
raul: You've named some Godfathers of SaaS. What are, what [00:05:33] do these people know? What have they done that maybe we really like? [00:05:36] Maybe you can kick us off, Toni.
Toni: so I [00:05:39] think I think this is a difficult topic, right? And I think [00:05:42] what I always ask myself is how [00:05:45] do I know they're good? How do I know this maybe during the [00:05:48] hiring process? How do I know this, after the [00:05:51] fact? When the kind of going and trying to be successful in [00:05:54] the organization and and how do you know what's good [00:05:57] versus what's really fucking great.
Toni: And I think those are some of [00:06:00] the topics we always want to talk about this today. And I [00:06:03] think this could easily start, this [00:06:06] could easily start at when you're hiring, when you're [00:06:09] hiring what would be one or two signs to look [00:06:12] out for? If you go through the lifetime here of a [00:06:15] VP of sales, for example, what would be one or [00:06:18] two things to look out for from your opinion to [00:06:21] just be like that candidate, it doesn't, it's not a [00:06:24] guarantee, but that can, it probably looks like could be a [00:06:27] great, could be a great guy to hire for a lady to have.
raul: [00:06:30] Yeah. So there's a lot of things, [00:06:33] obviously. What I'm doing now is I'll try not to name names, although [00:06:36] maybe if I'm going to be like super complimenting someone, I will [00:06:39] actually be a bit more specific, but keep in mind that all the [00:06:42] things I'm talking about, there's specific people I have in mind.
raul: [00:06:45] There was one guy who [00:06:48] has worked his way, I'm not gonna [00:06:51] say his portfolio company or that doesn't really matter, but who's [00:06:54] worked his way through so many different problems in that [00:06:57] company and has always, [00:07:00] from the start even in the interview [00:07:03] already been only described and can only be described with one word, which is [00:07:06] Insanely scrappy and in ingeniously [00:07:09] scrappy, maybe that's a better way of doing that.
raul: And I think [00:07:12] for a lot of companies this is really what they're missing and this is [00:07:15] really what the, what kind of, what connects [00:07:18] early stage companies with late stage companies that [00:07:21] still grow and that still take opportunities [00:07:24] to grow quite seriously is people and [00:07:27] especially leaders who embody that.
raul: Being [00:07:30] like, hey, it doesn't matter, we don't have this forecast, [00:07:33] whatever, let's think about this. Okay, we're not fully prepared, but there's this [00:07:36] event, let's go, whatever, let's print this thing quickly, we have some flyers, [00:07:39] we have that, let's just make the best out of it. And this kind of [00:07:42] yes, can do mentality, but plus [00:07:45] also a very heavy skill set in [00:07:48] Tools, but also like quick methodologies and like [00:07:51] just things to come up with on the spot to be like, hey, okay [00:07:54] There's this coming up.
raul: There's this customer. Okay, we're not prepared. Let's just be scrappy. [00:07:57] Let's put something together We have a slide deck We have this we have that so being quick on [00:08:00] your feet Being like very optimistic about things and like [00:08:03] very taking advantage of things and then there's this one guy [00:08:06] who has done that over the years again and again and had just [00:08:09] infected this whole team with that and I think he could benefit a [00:08:12] bit more from be more order in his head, but man, I'm really [00:08:15] impressed by his scrappiness.
raul: And I've seen so many things happen [00:08:18] because of that. Does it make sense?
Toni: Yeah. And if you're looking [00:08:21] for that kind of profile, do you have an idea how to. [00:08:24] You know in the interview kind of figure this out what would be [00:08:27] ways to suss this out before you need to make that decision.[00:08:30]
Hiring and Testing for Scrappiness
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raul: So I think you probably don't want to [00:08:33] test only for scrappiness, but I think to me very [00:08:36] clearly, no discussion to me in my mind. When you want to test for [00:08:39] something like this, like actually test it, not just talk about it, [00:08:42] but find ways to actually make them be [00:08:45] scrappy and watch them be that for [00:08:48] maybe a week.
raul: One or two hours, or even as long as you possibly [00:08:51] can and, or maybe get a test day of work. I know this is [00:08:54] not very popular nowadays, but there's ways you can do things. [00:08:57] You can devise a test where I've done that before, by the way, [00:09:00] a case study where information is missing. And then they're going to sit there [00:09:03] and be like, oh, fuck, I don't have this.
raul: I don't have that. I have to come up with [00:09:06] this on my own. Or I have to find a way now. within an hour [00:09:09] to to do something. However, I do think with [00:09:12] a dimension like this this is really something where you can talk [00:09:15] to when hopefully you get some references for a revenue leader, you [00:09:18] should this is something where you can really try to talk to the people before [00:09:21] and really understand the situations they were in.
raul: And I'm saying that [00:09:24] because I have seen revenue leaders, especially in startups that [00:09:27] were recruited from bigger companies and thought [00:09:30] themselves That they understood what limited [00:09:33] resources meant. So I have some like people [00:09:36] coming from if you come from Samsung or SAP and Siemens and [00:09:39] all like whatever these companies in Germany, wonderful, great [00:09:42] companies, you have no idea what the fuck limited resources [00:09:45] means.
raul: You have no idea. Just because your budget was cut once and you had to sit [00:09:48] down and make that work, that doesn't mean limited resources. So look at where [00:09:51] they're coming from. Did they actually work in a year or two in a company [00:09:54] that just barely survived friends and families and credit [00:09:57] cards.
raul: That's a scrappy person. The dude who came from SAP, [00:10:00] who says, Oh yeah, I built companies with limited resources, [00:10:03] that's not it.
Toni: So I think that's a good one. And [00:10:06] I think you can ask about hey, give me an example of how did you [00:10:09] overcome, blah, blah, blah. And I think [00:10:12] another thing that I think that's a good one. that I usually [00:10:15] ask in, in VP sales kind of interviews [00:10:18] is Hey, from the people you hired and people you built in other [00:10:21] organizations who is now a director?
Toni: Who is now a [00:10:24] VP? Who is a manager? Tell me, tell me, [00:10:27] have you been able to, coach [00:10:30] those folks up to take serious roles, right? And [00:10:33] that means two things. Honestly, one is. Are they [00:10:36] able to select good AEs and hire them and nurture them, [00:10:39] but also are they able to even coach them on top [00:10:42] of only doing the sales job, successfully.
Toni: So I would [00:10:45] ask, that kind of give me some examples and then [00:10:48] equally especially, let's just say you want to build a sales team, and not [00:10:51] just start with one sales leader or you want to [00:10:54] expand the sales team, also ask them like, Hey And very [00:10:57] specific, not that you want to hire them or, poach them, but Who many a [00:11:00] network in the first 90 days would you [00:11:03] approach to join us as a company?
Toni: Kind of give me like five [00:11:06] people show them to me. And really when [00:11:09] a VP of sales has no [00:11:12] problem showing you this and proofing this to you, I think those are [00:11:15] really good signs that they're, at least before you need to make the hiring [00:11:18] decision, that they're probably know what [00:11:21] they're doing at least in this regard.
Toni: And, sales is people [00:11:24] leadership and, understanding people leadership, I think this is a super important thing [00:11:27] to get right. So that's how we'd probably test for something like this.[00:11:30]
raul: And is that, so this question, [00:11:33] let's zoom in on that, double click as you say, is that [00:11:36] because you actually want them to come and hire these people or [00:11:39] is it more of a, you want more kind of the [00:11:42] concept and the idea of, oh, this is someone who knows what they're doing [00:11:45] and who knows how to get people on their side and who to hire?
raul: Is it more the [00:11:48] concept or do you actually want them to come with people? How important is that to you?[00:11:51]
Toni: I think it's both actually, because in, in the end of the [00:11:54] day if you're hiring a sales leader, you're usually doing this [00:11:57] either head off or at the same time, building a sales team further [00:12:00] out, right? Those are usually things that kind of come hand in hand. [00:12:03] And you also know, you would actually [00:12:06] expect, let's just say it's a situation where you hired the previous sales [00:12:09] leader and a new sales leader is coming in, you would also expect that, [00:12:12] person to join and be like, you know what, those two folks over there [00:12:15] in the corner, they don't work out, they need to go and they need to backfill, [00:12:18] right?
Toni: Kind of very often you will have a [00:12:21] situation where you need new talent in the organization, whether it's net new [00:12:24] talent. Or it's actually, backfill talent, right? And the [00:12:27] good thing and the bad thing about sales leaders is they're they usually [00:12:30] travel in caravans, right? It's then, when they move somewhere [00:12:33] that they usually don't go there by themselves.
Toni: And and [00:12:36] if the person you're talking to is one of them that travels [00:12:39] solo. That should be like an orange flag. It's like, [00:12:42] why is that? Why would no one, why would no one follow [00:12:45] this guy? And so that's why I would ask that question to try and figure this [00:12:48] out.
raul: Maybe you could even look at their history of people that have [00:12:51] followed around with them, because as you speak, as you're talking about this now, I [00:12:54] have a lot of people that come a lot, but I have a bunch of people that come to [00:12:57] mind that actually have traveled through three [00:13:00] or four companies as a group.
raul: Sometimes even like CMO, [00:13:03] CRO duo, or sometimes as a three salespeople, one [00:13:06] revops guy, and then female revenue leader or whatever [00:13:09] specifically in mind right now, whatever. So like these caravans [00:13:12] exist. Yeah.
Toni: but let's just say you now hired that [00:13:15] person.
Evaluating the new hire
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Toni: Do you know that this is a, as a next step, maybe [00:13:18] the first 90 days, the first three months, right? How can you [00:13:21] identify there that this is like great sales leadership that you got in yourself?[00:13:24]
raul: Yeah. I think this is especially important [00:13:27] early on, obviously in the company, it's always important, but The more you're trying to [00:13:30] figure things out, the more difficult it is. Like even [00:13:33] scientifically speaking, right? Because you have so many variables. What I'm, what I mean by [00:13:36] that is, let's say you're thinking about how to do your go to [00:13:39] market and you're like, Oh, we should do outbound [00:13:42] calls.
raul: I've seen a lot of companies more than [00:13:45] I like giving up on outbound [00:13:48] or whatever, customer success, whatever movement, even product led [00:13:51] growth. And giving it a kind of a 10, 10 [00:13:54] percent half ass try and then saying, Oh no, this doesn't work for us. [00:13:57] Like controlling for the variables of what is good and what is it, what is [00:14:00] bad is really difficult when you know very little yet about the world you're in.[00:14:03]
raul: And one of the things that I've seen is like judging [00:14:06] people based only on like very narrow, [00:14:09] in a very narrow corridor. Where it's okay, but this is not his fault. [00:14:12] Like he just came in okay, he doesn't have the inbound calls yet, or he doesn't [00:14:15] have the leads yet or whatever.
raul: Really making up [00:14:18] your mind on what you're judging people by. And I think if you go [00:14:21] on only too hard of criteria, that's difficult. Obviously [00:14:24] we're living in a performance world, especially in sales, but especially in the [00:14:27] beginning, like think about the variables you have in there. Just [00:14:30] because she came in and said, For six months, she's been trying one thing and it didn't [00:14:33] work.
raul: Doesn't mean you have to let her go. It could mean [00:14:36] that, but it could also mean maybe we just tried the wrong thing. Maybe we should [00:14:39] like put her in a different position or maybe we should actually not try [00:14:42] outbound anymore at all. Having said that obviously the [00:14:45] most important thing are the hard factors.
raul: One soft factor is really important to [00:14:48] me personally. Again and that's why I said she comes [00:14:51] to mind right now because she was so wonderful with that is I [00:14:54] think in this world we're in there's always this obsession of learning and [00:14:57] or at least selling yourself as someone who's really good with feedback and [00:15:00] learning and I learned from my mistakes, you can only learn from your mistakes.[00:15:03]
raul: I call BS on that. I think the best [00:15:06] revenue leaders I know, and really, she she was embodied that [00:15:09] so strongly. I wish I could really tell you the true story with names and everything, but [00:15:12] I think she was not very good at learning from failure at all, because she [00:15:15] was basically failure blind, which was a fault of hers.[00:15:18]
raul: She was so good at learning from what works [00:15:21] well. And she was like masterclass great at [00:15:24] having four or five salespeople doing really well, [00:15:27] 15 salespeople sucking, and then figuring out how to do what [00:15:30] those four or five people are doing well to the other 15, [00:15:33] or figuring out why marketing is having such a great [00:15:36] culture.
raul: And then sales doesn't, and then copying that. And [00:15:39] and I think this is really something that's strongly underrated. [00:15:42] So multiplying what works because almost always [00:15:45] it's the lower hanging fruit. Almost always there are things, [00:15:48] and even in the project, like the consulting projects I did I learned [00:15:51] after a while to focus much more in the beginning on, [00:15:54] you already know what works really well.
raul: The problem is it [00:15:57] doesn't work well everywhere, and it doesn't work well across the whole sales team, and [00:16:00] it doesn't work well at all times. So stabilizing what [00:16:03] works well, distributing what works well, scaling that. [00:16:06] Is almost always a faster and better way. And this is also [00:16:09] almost word by word, what she told me.
raul: She was quite a bit [00:16:12] older than me. And she told me like, look it's much easier to do [00:16:15] more of what works. Do it better and do it for longer. And for the entire [00:16:18] year, then trying to solve all the problems that we haven't solved for three [00:16:21] years. And I love that.
Toni: I think that's really [00:16:24] good. I think I think my own reflections on, I had a [00:16:27] couple of VP sales. I also fired a couple of VP sales in the first [00:16:30] month or two, which is not, you know, it's not a [00:16:33] funny thing, but it's it's my fault obviously. But anyway [00:16:36] so I think when I think back and judging whether or [00:16:39] not this was the right move, I think the first thing is [00:16:42] always.
Toni: Are they able to get the respect [00:16:45] of the team? It's like hands down. That's the thing. [00:16:48] I'm sorry. And you as the previous [00:16:51] leader or the boss or the CEO, whatever you play, you play a [00:16:54] critical role in this as well, right? You need to be [00:16:57] there and, 100%, no doubt, right?
Toni: Yeah. That's the [00:17:00] guy. Let's go for it. And if if you're not [00:17:03] that, if you're in between the raps will sniff it out [00:17:06] and they will basically find ways to rebel. And especially when the team is [00:17:09] like 10 people, maybe 15 people, like one [00:17:12] or two or three individual per, raps will have a massive [00:17:15] amount of, strength and leverage basically in the company.[00:17:18]
Toni: So you really need to make sure this works out, right? Do they [00:17:21] accept him or her as a leader, right? Other things [00:17:24] I would, consider judging the VP by is depending on [00:17:27] how big the organization is if it's a smaller team and [00:17:30] maybe they're required to, do a little bit of a deal here and [00:17:33] there.
Toni: Have they closed the deal in the first 90 days? Have they [00:17:36] actually been, they said in the interviewing process, they're going to be hands on, [00:17:39] they're going to do all kinds of stuff. Have they actually learned the demo [00:17:42] script? Have they understand the product? Do they, have they actually [00:17:45] worked, a deal and maybe gotten it to a close?
Toni: Obviously it needs to make [00:17:48] sense with your sales cycles, but has that actually happened? Did they [00:17:51] follow through on some of the claims that they made [00:17:54] in the interview process? And then the other two is [00:17:57] How do I change the team? [00:18:00] So have they fired someone? Have they added someone?
Toni: And [00:18:03] I think it's, it shouldn't be done [00:18:06] for optics, obviously, but I [00:18:09] think it's, Very likely [00:18:12] that one or two of the folks on the team just doesn't work out. They [00:18:15] haven't made me been working on before. Maybe the other sales leader [00:18:18] just was like, yeah, fuck it. I'm out of here anyway. I'm not going to [00:18:21] take this on now.
Toni: But also might be that one or two folks [00:18:24] just don't jive really well with this new leader. So you would [00:18:27] expect some turnover to happen. And and how has that been managed? [00:18:30] Was this good? Was it drama? Is everything up in [00:18:33] the air? Are they able to to manage these things and then vice [00:18:36] versa?
Toni: Are they able to backfill and, what's the level of the [00:18:39] talent of being, being backfilled and is that the right [00:18:42] thing that we were gunning for? Those would be things that probably would [00:18:45] judge judge this new, sales leader by.[00:18:48]
raul: So just how many people have you fired or are you [00:18:51] trying to find out the makeup of their last teams or.
Toni: [00:18:54] No, so this would be really when they're on board the first 90 days [00:18:57] and just see and observe, how they're doing things. [00:19:00] I by the way, the. Have you fired [00:19:03] someone? This is a great question to ask a [00:19:06] first time manager, a stretch kind of person that you want to [00:19:09] hire.
Toni: You want to ask that because usually the first person you [00:19:12] let go is like the biggest hurdle to overcome and then it gets, [00:19:15] you become a little bit more, objective with this. But anyway, so this, [00:19:18] I don't think it's like a salesy or business thing. Usually they have let someone go. [00:19:21] I think they're not shy of this.
Toni: I think those would be The [00:19:24] positive test that they can fail, like the team, have they [00:19:27] managed to get them on board? Have they maybe closed the deal? [00:19:30] Have they let go of a rap and it went well? Have they, found a really good [00:19:33] new rap? I think a negative thing [00:19:36] is actually, day three on the job and they come [00:19:39] in and, hey, we need to [00:19:42] rewire the whole revenue engine, everything needs to be, redone [00:19:45] and lots of, proposing lots of changes with [00:19:48] clearly not yet fully understanding, how the personas, [00:19:51] work and how this process works and so forth.
Toni: So that for me is a red [00:19:54] flag actually, because it's Unless you're a turnaround case. And [00:19:57] unless that's the reason why you hire that person, then obviously that's [00:20:00] good. But otherwise, when you have something going, even if [00:20:03] it's not going so great, chances are [00:20:06] some knee jerk changes will likely make [00:20:09] things worse, like period.
Toni: And I've hired VP sales into a [00:20:12] really well functioning engine and I just told them like, Hey, [00:20:15] for the first, write it down on a book, in a piece of paper or [00:20:18] something. But for the first 90 days, I don't want to hear [00:20:21] your great ideas, how you want to change everything around. I just don't [00:20:24] want to.
Toni: I'm not interested. I think chances are they're [00:20:27] probably, not good ideas. But also I want to [00:20:30] preserve them because fresh eyes on the, on an old product, I think that's [00:20:33] good. Write them down. And then after 90 days, go [00:20:36] back to your little book and your notes, read those [00:20:39] things. And then, what you think survives let's talk about that actually [00:20:42] for a little bit.
Toni: But that's usually a red flag if someone's to come and [00:20:45] change a bunch of things, because that also means. They're [00:20:48] almost buying themselves time. I was like, okay we're going to kick off this big [00:20:51] change project now. It's going to take six to nine months to see the fruits of [00:20:54] that.
Toni: So need to wait a year before you can judge [00:20:57] me. And I think I just wouldn't, those are not good [00:21:00] unless it's super legit, obviously, but those are usually not good signs.
raul: I [00:21:03] think in in, in specific context where you're talking about, I would [00:21:06] agree with you.
Stop changing what's working
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raul: So like when there's a machine already going, [00:21:09] in in, and you're talking obviously a bit more from a larger experience, [00:21:12] particularly in the examples you named, but there's a [00:21:15] lot of companies where it's not even a, it's not even called change, it's called [00:21:18] building, right?
raul: So things are just not there. In [00:21:21] those cases, I would. Disagree. I would say no, someone coming in and be [00:21:24] like, oh, I'm going to build this revenue engine. I'm going to build this process. I'm going to build [00:21:27] this theorem. And maybe what we had before could be called a [00:21:30] process, but it was basically on a napkin with like lipstick all over it and [00:21:33] nobody could read it.
raul: And in those cases no, you want that person. [00:21:36] However, what I do agree with you is Having done a [00:21:39] lot of change and a lot of these coming in and telling people what to do, kind [00:21:42] of work things is what I've really learned over the [00:21:45] years is everything is much better once you [00:21:48] start to understand a bit more about what has already been [00:21:51] tried.
raul: And this just takes a bit of time sometimes, right? And [00:21:54] sometimes you need to do a little bit of preparation beforehand and spend a little bit of time with [00:21:57] the company and it could be 90 days. It could be whatever, six [00:22:00] months, however long it takes, but there's. Almost [00:22:03] always, the thing you're coming in and the great idea that revenue [00:22:06] leader is coming in, probably someone has already had [00:22:09] or maybe even tried and it didn't work out.
raul: And it's, [00:22:12] even if it's the best idea, it's [00:22:15] good to understand why it didn't work. So maybe [00:22:18] someone tried this thing six months ago or 12 months ago. Let's [00:22:21] call it, let's say they tried a company's marketing 12 months ago. [00:22:24] And It didn't work. And now your idea is like, guys, why are you not doing a company's [00:22:27] marketing?
raul: It's like a no brainer. We need to do it ASAP. No, [00:22:30] understand what has been tried and why it didn't work. And maybe you come, you get to the [00:22:33] facts that the data stack is all over the place and nobody [00:22:36] knows how to handle the leads that were coming in. And so they were [00:22:39] just burning money. Okay, cool.
raul: That's good to know, right? So now you [00:22:42] understand, if you want to actually make that change happen, what does need to be in [00:22:45] place. And maybe in those 12 months, something has changed, and the tools are more [00:22:48] mature now, and people understand how to use them, and now you can actually do [00:22:51] it. Or maybe it's not the case at all, and you have to build things.
raul: But [00:22:54] this is the stuff that the good people do. It's they want to change stuff, [00:22:57] they want to build stuff, but they want to actually get it to stick. [00:23:00] Because it's not about just presenting a slide and saying, Oh, I'm going to, I want to do [00:23:03] ABM, right? This is what the posers do just to name stuff that they, [00:23:06] Have heard or done before it's about how to actually get it to [00:23:09] stick.
Toni: yeah. No, I totally agree with this. So this was actually [00:23:12] personal story of mine. Entering the company hey, I don't want to [00:23:15] change anything at first. I obviously did because, I'm Toni. [00:23:18] Hey, have you met me? But the bigger pieces [00:23:21] was actually after I think six months showing to the [00:23:24] management team that, [00:23:27] hey, this, this ACV.
Toni: commands [00:23:30] a more of a product led motion, actually. You [00:23:33] have to actually do this. And even, our [00:23:36] users want that and all of our competitors offer that. [00:23:39] So that's probably something that, that's holding us back. [00:23:42] And and to your point the company has, [00:23:45] no one is stupid.
Toni: This is so obvious, right? They knew [00:23:48] this already and they actually had previously tried to do [00:23:51] it. So really, and it failed. So really the [00:23:54] conversation became not whether or not it's necessary to [00:23:57] do it. It actually became what's different now than it was last time, [00:24:00] actually. How is, how are you going to make this successful [00:24:03] versus, the guy that was here before, right?
Toni: And I [00:24:06] think this then turned into a really, also challenged me in a different [00:24:09] way, by the way, it turned into a really constructive [00:24:12] good way of thinking about it. We presented to a board, we got the go ahead and so [00:24:15] forth. And ultimately, we were acquired by a [00:24:18] company that has never had a sales led motion.
Toni: Everything [00:24:21] was like through partners or PLG. [00:24:24] And I don't think we would have been a target for them if we hadn't [00:24:27] had. Some kind of a PLG motion going in. And the thing is, it [00:24:30] was still super early on at that point, it was [00:24:33] still. We were still closing a lot of stuff through sales [00:24:36] actually but there was growing, but just having that [00:24:39] start of the of the motion there and being able to [00:24:42] paint that story that over time you can shut this, the one [00:24:45] side down and, build the other one up was extremely important [00:24:48] also for the exit in the end.
Toni: Just, short, like patting myself on the [00:24:51] shoulder story here, but yeah, absolutely to your point is just [00:24:54] coming in and throwing around ABM and PLG and what [00:24:57] have you. I think this is silly. I think Jacko on this [00:25:00] specific regard, so from Winning by Design, he had a kind of a good [00:25:03] quote.
Toni: It's imagine, running a sales business is a little [00:25:06] bit like flying a rocket, right? And imagine the inside of a rocket with all the kind [00:25:09] of, knobs and buttons and screens and [00:25:12] everything. And every 12 to 15 months. [00:25:15] One of these seats in that cockpit opens [00:25:18] up and just someone else walks in, sits down and then looks at the cockpit and [00:25:21] is don't think we need those buttons over there.
Toni: Fuck those. They should [00:25:24] go away. I have a screenshot from my last company where we had those [00:25:27] buttons instead. So let's install them now. And let me [00:25:30] just start randomly pressing buttons all over the place. [00:25:33] You know, that's, That's. Fundamentally, what's [00:25:36] happening when you have a sales leader coming in wanting to change all that, [00:25:39] lots of stuff suddenly.
Toni: And for some reason in [00:25:42] SaaS and in business, we're like, yo, that makes sense. Let's empower that, [00:25:45] guy or girl, they should be able to make changes. [00:25:48] But when we actually think about, serious stuff, [00:25:51] like flying a rocket ship or running [00:25:54] a, like a manufacturing, like a factory kind of [00:25:57] thing.
Toni: Those things would never happen. It just would never [00:26:00] happen. And people need to I guess what I want to say, people need to grasp that [00:26:03] Hey, wait a minute, just someone coming in and changing something [00:26:06] fundamentally, I don't think is a good idea. And this is fundamentally different [00:26:09] by the way, from what your example previously was like.[00:26:12]
Toni: Let's, look at what the good reps are doing and try and [00:26:15] translate this over. This is a, this is optimizing [00:26:18] the current motion, which is absolutely what you should be doing in the first [00:26:21] 90 days, by the way, not reworking the [00:26:24] motion, adding one, rewind the whole thing. That's just, I [00:26:27] want to make sure that this is clear to everyone listening, there's some things [00:26:30] that you want them to improve immediately.
Toni: And, I think you had a [00:26:33] great example there, Raul. And then there's some things that, at least for the [00:26:36] first 90 days, keep your hands off that.
raul: So [00:26:39] finally enough, by the way, this coming in and multiplying what works [00:26:42] is some advice that I could almost very rarely take [00:26:45] because the way of my job is typically I come in to change the things that don't [00:26:48] work well, but I, it's sadly, I can't use [00:26:51] it enough on my own, but I think this is something that almost everyone in any [00:26:54] new job Just find out what works and do more of that.
raul: [00:26:57] Make sure it works for longer, stabler in more [00:27:00] teams in the, on a larger scale. And you're almost always going to [00:27:03] pass your first year or two or second year without flying with flying [00:27:06] colors. Very easy hack, by the way, to come into a company. [00:27:09] One smaller one though, just to to round things off here, [00:27:12] pet peeve of mine.
When leaders speak bullshit
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raul: And I have maybe one really big [00:27:15] one. I don't know if we're going to get into that, but small pet peeve of mine, I don't know what you think [00:27:18] about this, is language. I think by now [00:27:21] and you probably also have that, I am so sensitive to bullshit [00:27:24] in, in, in the field that we're in, because there is so much of it, and in [00:27:27] certain regions, there is even more of it.
raul: And There's [00:27:30] a certain ways that people who bullshit speak. And then there are certain [00:27:33] ways that people who don't bullshit speak that you can pick up on a [00:27:36] lot of times. And I think, especially for revenue [00:27:39] leaders, the more specific they are with their [00:27:42] language as to what's happening and why it's happening, the [00:27:45] more they can explain also on a more than a [00:27:48] surface level KPIs and why, where are they coming from [00:27:51] and what the hypothesis is behind that and all that stuff, the more [00:27:54] intelligent they can put like where things are [00:27:57] going.
raul: As opposed to others who, when you ask them [00:28:00] as a board, like how things are going and they're like, yeah, it's going like [00:28:03] in in in, in the more you have [00:28:06] that, the better, probably the leader is. And I have this example, [00:28:09] probably, I have this name for this guy, [00:28:12] but probably one of the most aggravating salespeople I've ever worked with in my [00:28:15] life and also leader of a certain [00:28:18] branch.
raul: Whenever you would meet him, whenever you would talk to him, [00:28:21] whether you would be the CEO or the senior salesperson or me as [00:28:24] outside consultant, whatever his answer for how things were [00:28:27] going would be in German. Which [00:28:30] basically means it's cool, man. But there's no nice cover or [00:28:33] translation for that in English in I'm ignorant [00:28:36] to how bad it is, but I'm just like, I don't want to, I [00:28:39] want to get out of this conversation and just tell you how great this is.
raul: And he would [00:28:42] say this for two years. So for two years, [00:28:45] we'd be like, Hey man, how's this deal XYZ coming in? Like you talked [00:28:48] about this last week. I was like, yeah, läuft, ne? It's [00:28:51] coming. It's coming. This is the worst kind of [00:28:54] situation. And this is the worst kind of person you want to get away from that.
raul: Like in this [00:28:57] case, it's very obvious that nothing will ever come. But [00:29:00] the more it gets to the level where people are like very complex [00:29:03] questions, very complex deals are answered with one word [00:29:06] answers, like, how are they doing? It's great, man. When are they [00:29:09] coming next week? This is the kind of stuff that you want to get [00:29:12] away from.
raul: And it's. Typically quite easy to pick up on
Toni: Yeah. [00:29:15] No, I think that's a good one. I don't know. Maybe last [00:29:18] last point here.
Final Thoughts and Wrap-Up
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Toni: Do you have do you have one last item in terms of Hey, [00:29:21] this is how you can spot great sales [00:29:24] leadership. This is what great sales leaders do.
raul: [00:29:27] so let me put this very simply because it's [00:29:30] so I've talked about this a bunch of times I'm still I'm picking up on [00:29:33] writing my book again And I think I might have actually a way towards [00:29:36] the end. The working title is the physics of sales I [00:29:39] don't know if I'm going to change it and I did a talk at the pack on two years ago [00:29:42] about that You can look that up by the way in YouTube or ask me [00:29:45] about it if you want to look for it But this is the idea of the book basically [00:29:48] is Everything that a good revenue leader should [00:29:51] have, whether it's mostly a CRO or a founder or whatever. [00:29:54] I'm very strongly convinced that the good [00:29:57] ones, what they do is have two components. Component [00:30:00] number one, is they understand the physics and the laws of [00:30:03] nature around us. Which means they are quite well educated in [00:30:06] revenue methodologies, like what is revenue. [00:30:09] Conversions. What is a sales cycle? How do you measure those things?[00:30:12]
raul: They don't have to necessarily do that or build a sales for themselves, but they [00:30:15] have to have a feel for the laws of nature. What is good [00:30:18] sales? What is good marketing? How do you do this? How do you do that? What is revenue [00:30:21] option? What should they do? I call that the laws of nature, the physics [00:30:24] around us.
raul: They understand and are well educated in that. [00:30:27] And then the second part is they're really good at [00:30:30] applying those laws of nature to their own planet. And the planet in this case [00:30:33] is their own company. This is the picture I'm trying to draw with that book, right? [00:30:36] So it's someone, and I call that, you have to be a [00:30:39] scientist or a physicist of your own company because your company [00:30:42] is your own universe.
raul: It's not. It's different, the laws of nature are different on [00:30:45] here, let's say on Earth, then on Moon, then on Sun. This is the [00:30:48] planet you're in right now, the people are different, everything. But if you come in [00:30:51] with a strong understanding of how the laws of nature work in general, [00:30:54] and you understand the planet you're in very well, then you can [00:30:57] do that thing.
raul: Now this picture is very convoluted maybe simple or not, [00:31:00] but what I'm trying to say here is look for people who [00:31:03] have a base understanding of how things work out [00:31:06] there. And that doesn't mean that they worked in only a lot of, [00:31:09] they don't have to have worked in a lot of different companies.
raul: It could be even book [00:31:12] smartness if you so want that can be quite valuable. [00:31:15] But then, and this is where book smartness stops, they find [00:31:18] ways to apply that to their own planet. Which [00:31:21] goes maybe also into the coming in and improving things apart, [00:31:24] as I said before,
Toni: Yeah, I think that's a really good [00:31:27] one. And I think it's also a good kind of wrap up for the session here today, [00:31:30] Roel. I just, for everyone out there, if [00:31:33] you enjoyed this, if you liked this, hit subscribe, share, [00:31:36] love, whatever, wherever you're watching or listening [00:31:39] to this. And and otherwise, yeah, have a really good day [00:31:42] and thanks Raul for the chat.
raul: Thank you, Toni. Thanks [00:31:45] everyone.