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Welcome to Live Free Ride Free, where we talk to people who have lived self-actualized lives on their own terms, and find out how they got there, what they do, how we can get there, what we can learn from them. How to live our best lives, find our own definition of success, and most importantly, find joy.
Your Host is New York Times bestselling author Rupert Isaacson. Long time human rights activist, Rupert helped a group of Bushmen in the Kalahari fight for their ancestral lands. He's probably best known for his autism advocacy work following the publication of his bestselling book "The Horse Boy" and "The Long Ride Home" where he tells the story of finding healing for his autistic son. Subsequently he founded New Trails Learning Systems an approach for addressing neuro-psychiatric conditions through horses, movement and nature. The methods are now used around the world in therapeutic riding program, therapy offices and schools for special needs and neuro-typical children.
You can find details of all our programs and shows on www.RupertIsaacson.com
Rupert Isaacson: Thanks for joining us.
Welcome to Live Free, Ride Free.
I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson, New
York Times bestselling author of
The Horseboy and The Long Ride Home.
Before I jump in with today's guest, I
want to say a huge thank you to you, our
audience, for helping to make this happen.
I have a request.
If you like what we do here,
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It really, really helps
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To find out about our certification
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please go to rupertisaacson.com.
So now let's jump in.
All right.
Welcome back to Live Free, Ride Free.
We're in the eventing world
kind of, sort of right now.
We've got a big cheese
from the eventing world.
Look at her, she's made of cheese.
Sinead Halpin Maynard, who has done
wonderful things on the event field.
And it's an interesting departure
for us because actually I evented a
lot growing up, and even though I'm
sort of known more on the classical
dressage side of things these days
m- my great love has always been
cross-country jumping and always will be.
So the idea of pulling your stirrups up
and having a go is sort of in my blood.
So I'm delighted to have Sinead here,
who I think embodies that spirit.
Irish American, I'm gonna
let her tell her story.
But really I think w- what has
always stood out to me about
eventing is that it is the, in my
experience anyway, the leastâ¦
Hope this doesn't get demonetized now.
The deep, the, the, the least shitty
side of the- ⦠competitive horse
world because people actually have fun.
Yeah ⦠it's, there is a bit of a limit
to how far up your own arse you can dive.
⦠Which I think because you face death so,
You do ⦠plainly and starkly, what I've
noticed is that among all the eventers
I've known, you know, from boyhood
upwards, including myself, is there is
a real camaraderie, and there is very
little, There's very little snobism,
even though, yes, you're still not gonna
win unless you've got expensive horses.
Just a fact.
But still, there's very little
snobism, and people tend to be
quite supportive of each other.
I think because it is this slight
sort of brothers, sisters in
danger thing, but I could be
wrong, and I asked Sinead about it.
So really, I think what it comes down
to for me is joy, and the exploration of
joy in the horse world, which sometimes
can get a little bit lost, especially
in the dressage-age world, and when
dressage becomes stress-age, et cetera.
So Sinead, thanks for coming on.
Tell us who you are, what you do-
⦠Sinead Maynard: and why.
J- that should take, you know, five
minutes, then what will we talk about?
Well, thank you for having me, and I
knew from the moment I met you, you
were an eventer at heart, because you're
way too fun just to, you know, dabble
in a little bit of classical dressage.
Noth- nothing against
the classical dressage.
I love it myself, but we do have
to have a little fun sometimes.
You know?
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, we just, just
don't admit it, you know, 'cause it's-
Sinead Maynard: No
⦠Rupert Isaacson: we actually have
a, a rule in our online community,
which is it's a no fun rule.
If I catch you having fun,
you have to buy me a beer.
Yeah.
Totally.
And I only drink very expensive craft
IPAs, so it gets expensive for people.
Yeah.
Sinead Maynard: I love that.
I love it.
Well, I appreciate the introduction,
and yes, I do dabble in the three-day
eventing, and have spent a lot of time
in that world, and I agree with you.
I think it's, I mean, I know
I'm biased, but I, I love it.
I think there's a strong camaraderie,
because no matter what, it's just a
bloody hard sport to participate in.
I think you have to be a really
good horseman to do well.
I think you have to have a very
strong relationship with the horse,
and with yourself, and with the
competition, and with reality.
And maybe not reality sometimes.
You know, you have to live a
little bit out of the you know,
accepting, you know, the, some of
the truths you have to just get over.
And and I think that it's a real
sport that, I don't, I don't
ever find that you're really
competing against other people.
I think you compete against the track.
Mm-hmm.
I think you compete
against your preparation.
I com- I think you compete
to showcase the partnership.
I think when it's done well, it's one
of the most beautiful sports to watch.
And well, like I think there's nothing
more incredible than going cross-country-
Mm ⦠in, when you're, when you truly
have a partner that you feel like you're
thinking the same thing at the same time.
Your responses and reactions
are l- in unison, and it's
like a true harmonious thing.
And, and for horses being the flight
animals that they are especially with
a lot of the blood horses that we ride,
they're so calm and cool at, at speed.
The really good ones,
you know, they justâ¦
And it, it, time slows down.
It's like one of the
most amazing feelings.
You can be jumping around.
When it goes well.
When it's not going well- ⦠it's a
different, it's a different feeling.
But when you get that-
Let's assume it's going
Rupert Isaacson: well.
Yeah, yeah.
Sinead Maynard: Yeah, yeah.
When you get that, that, And I think
that's why people stay in it, is if
you're lucky enough to get that feeling
where it is just all just happening
in slow motion, and you're truly one
with a horse, jumping big jumps and
galloping fast, it's just an- Yeah
incredible experience.
So-
Rupert Isaacson: I, I would- ⦠I feel
Sinead Maynard: very lucky.
Rupert Isaacson: Entirely agree.
It, it, the thing that always stood
out for me about cross-country
jumping is that I grew up in an area
of England called Leicestershire,
which is where fox hunting as we know
it began in the late 18th century.
And you know, it's where the whole kind
of cross-country jumping thing, you know,
really happened, and then got exported
very quickly out through the British
Empire to places like America and so on.
And it was always Thoroughbred horses.
It was always-
Sinead Maynard: Mm
⦠Rupert Isaacson: failed or-
No longer steeplechasing-
Steeplechaser ⦠steeplechasers, right?
Mm-hmm.
Off the track.
That was what was affordable,
and so that's what you did.
But the thing that Iâ¦
that always stood out for me and stays
with it, and it's what I'm always
trying to help people find with their
horses is, horses just really enjoy it.
Sinead Maynard: Mm.
Rupert Isaacson: Because you can't
do those ki- cross-country tracks
on a horse that doesn't enjoy
it, 'cause you'd lose your life.
Yeah.
I mean, y- y- you can't make a
reluctant horse go into those fences.
They're either digging
it, like ah, or not.
And- Yep ⦠so unlike sort of a dressage
ride, or even to some degree a show
jumping ride, where, okay, if they hit
it, well, probably nothing too bad's
gonna hap- We all know what happens
if we hit those fences, so we've gotta
have a horse that kinda wants to eat
it up, and I think that that ecsta-
that provides an ecstatic experience.
And when one thinks about what ecstasy
means, ex, outside of stasis, out of
your static, out of your normal, out
of your body, effectively what keepsâ¦
It, it's built into the experience, but
of course it's not for everybody 'cause-
Mm ⦠you know, you can get hurt.
Mm.
So g- give usâ¦
But joy, I think, is kind of
the theme I want to follow
here, and you're a pretty- Sure
joyful person.
I got on- ⦠the podcast and
we had a good laugh, right?
You know.
Yeah.
And then I found out,
oh, she's half Irish.
Well, of course.
Right.
Sinead.
I wonder what gave it away?
Sinead Maynard: Oh, f- the s- It's I
did ⦠dosher, Bernadette, and Eamon.
I dunno.
Rupert Isaacson: You know, I'm, I'm,
I'm, I'm just intuitive like that.
It's a gift.
So what I want first, Sinead,
is tell us your story.
How didâ¦
Where were you born, how you grew
up, how you sort of got into this,
and what you learned along the way.
Okay.
And then when it turned from sort of girl
that does it to sort of big cheesy stuff-
Like with a, with a, with a flag on
your, on your saddle- ⦠you know, pad.
Sure.
And then, you know, where, where
you are now, and then we'll go,
we'll sort of take it from there.
So bio- Yeah ⦠please, now.
Sinead Maynard: Go.
Well, I too spent some time in
Texas, so I was actually born in
Texas, in Fort Worth, and then my
family moved to- My commiserations
Rupert Isaacson: on that.
Yeah.
Sinead Maynard: It's okay.
I was under five.
I don't really remember.
And then my family
moved to South Carolina.
So both my parents immigrated from
Ireland, and- Okay ⦠actually my
brother was born in Ireland, so they
kind of traveled around the US, found the
place that was most unlike Ireland, i.e.
Texas.
Why?
Rupert Isaacson: Why did they do that?
Sinead Maynard: God only knows.
I really am confused myself.
They, but they, I think
they just liked the idea.
They had some friends down there,
my dad got some work, and they
just thought- What did your dad do?
And my dad did everything.
Like, when he, when they first came
here, they had a camper, and they just
traveled around going from place to place.
My dad was a real handy guy, so he
did everything from, like, cleaning
the bottom of boats in the ocean and
in the river to building, to myâ¦
They, my parents actually worked
at the Kentucky Horse Park mucking
out stalls there for a while.
And
Rupert Isaacson: ultimately-
Sinead Maynard: Were they
Rupert Isaacson: horsey in
Ireland before they left?
Sinead Maynard: My dad was not.
My dad grew up, he was one of
10, kind of that classic, like,
Angela's Ashes story, you know?
Mm-hmm.
In Dublin.
Dad died early.
My mom was one of four, and she
grew up in the country, and sheâ¦
Oh, they always had ponies.
Her brother was a master of the hunt.
She never really competed, but they just
grew up on a big farm and always rode.
Which- So she was horsey ⦠which
Rupert Isaacson: area of Ireland was that?
Which hunt?
Sinead Maynard: Oh, God, you would
think I could remember this off
the top of my head, but I can't.
Rupert Isaacson: So- Wh-
which area, do you know?
Sinead Maynard: County Meath.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay, yeah, then
almost certainly one of six hunts there,
right, just outside Dublin, yep, yep.
Yeah.
Big ditches- to jump there, yeah
⦠Sinead Maynard: yeah, so my
Uncle Pat was very, very into
the horses, and so yeah, thatâ¦
But when they came, when they came
here, it was not part of the thing.
My dad ended up stumbling into a, a
company called Cooper Air Tools, so he
worked on airplanes, and that is ended
up what took us to South Carolina.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Sinead Maynard: And I don't know.
I think I did the kid thing, you
know, like, wanted to ride a pony,
and ultimately it was something that
my mom had a keen interest in as
well, so we started kind of riding
and taking lessons a bit together.
And fast-forward a bit of time, I did
some hunter-jumper stuff, and then- we
bought a little pony named Hobo for $500.
His show name was Classic Bum.
He was Pony of America.
We promptly, being of Irish
descent, changed his name to
Boomerang, the great Eddie Macken's
showjumping horse, Boomerang.
So I did that for a bit, and it was
really interesting because my mom you
know, having grown up with fox hunting
and all of that, just didn't really
understand the hunter-jumper culture.
Right.
And so she struggled with that a little
bit, and I can't remember what the final
straw was, but I think she bought a black
saddle or something, and the trainer just
had a fit that it wasn't a brown saddle.
And anyway, she had a friend that knew
something about eventing, and so we
thought, "Well, we'll just try that."
And there's dressage, so you
know, Arabian horses do dressage,
and there was an Arabian horse
that was for sale down the road.
So why not get that
Arabian horse, you know?
It's, it was a total disaster.
But that, that's really how we
stumbled into eventing and, and
it kind of took off from there.
It was just, it was something that I, I
had a really great coach that she, she
real- She evented kind of through the
preliminary/intermediate level, but she
was, she was really fabulous, and I had a
great friend that did it with me as well.
And so we just started eventing.
And that's what we did all weekend.
So through- In South
Rupert Isaacson: Carolina.
Sinead Maynard: In South Carolina.
So we would go to Aiken and,
and Camden and at that point
my dad had become a builder.
He had started building.
And he partnered up with a gentleman
that wanted to build a community
around a horse farm, and it so
happened that I liked horses.
So my dad then built this
boarding facility, and then they
built this community around it.
Which w- and w- that was in high school.
And so we lived above the barn, which is
wild, because I live above a barn now.
I've, like, always lived above barns.
And, Where
Rupert Isaacson: else should one live?
I mean- I mean- ⦠isn't
that heaven, you know?
Sinead Maynard: Yeah.
I'm like, I say that to my kids all the
time when they're like, "Why don't we
have like, you know, a normal house?"
I'm like, "What kid has 12 horses
that sleep underneath them?"
Rupert Isaacson: You know, you should just
call their bluff and say, "You know what?
One year in a subdivision.
I'll stay here with the ponies."
"You go and-" Totally
"knock yourselves out in that subdivision.
We'll talk, we'll talk at
the end of three weeks."
Sinead Maynard: I know.
You would, you would not survive.
There are not a lot of lizards
in subdivisions, and my
kids like them some lizards.
Yeah.
So yeah, so that was kind of the, you
know, I my, my- Agreed ⦠parents were
also very, like now that I have kids, I
can't believe how much they let me do.
Like, when I was 15, so in South
Carolina you could get your- a
driver's license when you were 15.
And I, I was, I really had the bug.
I like really was invested, and
I heard of a working student
program in Middleburg, Virginia.
And so my parents-
Rupert Isaacson: Ah, yeah.
Wild something ground.
Yeah,
Sinead Maynard: yeah.
Love it.
My parents just let me drive
up to Virginia by myself
and take, and take a horse.
And so I went to Virginia for three
months in the summer, worked for
a, a, a Canadian Olympian up there.
Then I did the same thing when
I was 16, and then somehow I
scraped out of high school.
And then that person was living
in Georgia, so then at the day
after I graduated high school, I
moved out and moved to work in,
in Georgia and kind of do it full
time, and that, that's that really.
Rupert Isaacson: It's interesting
because, you know, when I read your
bio, it doesn't come across that way.
It comes across more that maybe
you'd grown up partly in Ireland and-
Mm ⦠that even if, if your mum had
been connected to hunting and to be a
master of a hunt, obviously it takes
some money to be a master of a hunt.
Mm.
But you can be from a family
that- Mm ⦠has that money, but
not have that money yourself.
And- Yeah ⦠it sounds like your dadâ¦
Well, I was looking distracted there.
I was looking for the lyrics of a song.
What- Mm ⦠what was the, what was the
decade that your parents moved over?
Sinead Maynard: It would've been,
it would've been 45 years ago
Rupert Isaacson: So that would've been-
'70s.
Basically, yeah.
It just, this reminds me of, of, of,
it's so easy to forget what life was
like in Ireland and England back then.
Sinead Maynard: Mm-hmm,
Rupert Isaacson: mm-hmm.
And it justâ¦
Do you know the band The Pogues?
Sinead Maynard: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Do you know
the song Thousands are Sailing?
Thousands are sailing
across the western ocean.
Where the hand of opportunity
draws tickets in a lottery.
Where e'er we go, we celebrate the
land that makes us refugees from
fear of priests and empty plates.
From guilt and weeping effigies.
And- Love it ⦠of course,
they went to America.
Sinead Maynard: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And e- even those
boys that I, I grew up training
horses with in Virginia, that,
that was what they were fleeing.
They were fleeing poverty.
Sinead Maynard: Mm.
Rupert Isaacson: And lack of opportunity,
and terrible oppression from- Yeah ⦠the
Catholic Church, unless you happened to
be of a very free money, upper Anglo-Irish
caste- Yeah ⦠or very, very much of the
sort of west coast Celtic Irish speaking.
Yeah.
If you were something in between,
it was a beautiful, but shite place.
And it sounds like your dad was,
to some degree, escaping that, and
sort of coming to America- Yeah
to make good.
Yeah.
Sinead Maynard: Yeah.
I mean, I remember, I remember
saying to him, like, a lo- a while
back, I was like, "Dad, have you
read the book Angela's Ashes?"
And he just looked at me and laughed,
and he said, "Sinead, I lived that."
Like, I don't needâ¦
You know it, I think he had a
pretty, a pretty rough go of it.
My mom, on the other hand,
you know, it was a classic.
Like, she, she had a
great, a great upbringing.
She went to a really great boarding
school- Mm ⦠and was the youngest.
And, you know, my, both my parents
were very charismatic people.
And
Rupert Isaacson: so I
Sinead Maynard: think she-
Rupert Isaacson: So she fell for the
good-looking boy from the wrong side
Sinead Maynard: of the tracks.
Rupert Isaacson: Yes.
Sinead Maynard: Yeah.
T- totally.
Yeah.
Totally.
Yeah.
You know, and then they moved thousands
and thousands of miles away from
family, and then had two kids, and
then, you know, everything blows up.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Well.
Sinead Maynard: Whis-
Rupert Isaacson: there's always the
Sinead Maynard: whiskey.
You know?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Oh, yeah.
Exactly.
You know, I'll tell you, that darker
side of Ireland, you know, we have in
Horse Boy, you know, our therapeutic,
Sinead Maynard: Mm-hmm
⦠Rupert Isaacson: world, we actually
have a, a project that was beginning,
quite a large one, in, In Galway
Sinead Maynard: Mm-hmm
Rupert Isaacson: And it can't
happen because they foundâ¦
It was an ex-re- religious site.
Nuns-
Sinead Maynard: Oh
⦠Rupert Isaacson: used to take
in mothers with unwanted babies.
Right They found so many babies buried
in the land, that the forensic people
are all like, "Can't do the project."
Sinead Maynard: Oh my God.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, and it's really
easy to forget that that was the reality.
Yeah,
Sinead Maynard: yeah.
Oh, it'sâ¦
Yeah.
It's, it's a differentâ¦
Yeah.
It's cra- it's crazy how
not long ago that was.
Rupert Isaacson: Indeed.
Indeed.
Sinead Maynard: You know, it's bananas.
Rupert Isaacson: So okay.
So Angela's Ashes.
Mar- he marries the h- Master
of the Hunt's glamorous-
Sinead Maynard: Sister
⦠Rupert Isaacson: relative.
Yeah.
Sinead Maynard: Yeah
Rupert Isaacson: Runs away with her.
Mm.
Mm-hmm Um, but then builds you
effectively your starting point.
Mm-hmm What a good dad.
Mm-hmm.
But to go from that that you're
describing, you know, to y- you get
a sort of your first kind of talented
but kind of no hoper type horse.
You pour your all into it.
You work your ass off for someone who
screams at you, but probably has a
lot of good, I, I worked in Virginia.
I know what it was like back then.
Mm-hmm Um, and harsh, but
interesting, but exciting.
But you and I both know that to get to
the point where you have the American
flag or any country's flag on your
saddle pad usually means you have
to have some sort of silver spoon.
Because- Mm ⦠the type of horse that
you've gotta have under your butt at
a certain point and you've gotta have
more than one- isn't likely to arrive
without that, yet some people manage to.
Yeah.
And I'm always rather
intrigued by how that happens.
So how did that happen for you?
Sinead Maynard: Yeah, through
a a lot of a lot of a lot.
I mean, I, I, you know, I, I think it's
a very, it's very true what you say.
I think it, it's, it's pretty much
impossible in competitive horse sports
these days to not get a leg up somewhere.
You're gonna have either family,
family support, you're gonna
have a really big sponsor.
There, there's not the amountâ¦
You cannot teach enough lessons
or- Mm ⦠train enough horses to
be able to afford the horse that
you need to be able to, to compete.
So for me, I worked for a, a, a
kind of really not a great guy for
a very long time, but he was a, he
was a very good, he was very good
at horse management actually, and
I learned to work very, very hard.
And then I started freelancing,
and that was awesome.
So in Middleburg where, you know,
it, there was so much to do.
So I galloped race horses,
I worked polo ponies.
I worked at Mosby's Tavern.
I don't know if you ever remember Mosby's
Rupert Isaacson: or Magpie.
I had been thrown out of
Mosby's Tavern actually.
More
Sinead Maynard: than once.
Yeah.
That's why I got a job there.
They couldn't kick me out.
Yeah.
And I was too young to drink actually
when I first started working there,
and so that was the only way I got
to hang out with, like, my friends.
So I'd work at the racetrack at Middleburg
Track in the morning, and then I
Rupert Isaacson: had- Was
it you that threw me out?
I think it might've
Sinead Maynard: been at-
Well, it's quite possibly.
Yeah.
That's you know, I was pretty tough.
Yeah.
And rented over the mountain
at a farm called Long Branch.
I don't know if you wouldâ¦
It was a big, old facility.
It was beautiful.
Mm-hmm.
It actually unfortunately a
couple years ago burned down.
Mm.
But and I kind of, and I moved and started
working with David and Karen O'Connor-
Rupert Isaacson: Right
⦠Sinead Maynard: who at the time were
really dominating the sport, and they
created an amazing team of people.
And to be fair, a lot of the
people that were working with
them were quite well-funded.
A lot of their students and the people
that were my age were going to Washington
and Lee, and then had their horses
there and were riding at the same time.
But, but David and Karen really were
amazing to me, and they, You know, like
I remember one time going to Karen,
and we were talking about something,
and she actually asked me, like, "How
are you paying for this and that?"
And I, I think I just started
crying 'cause I wasâ¦
I, I don't know.
And she just, I had written a check to
her for lessons, and she just ripped it
up in front of me, and she just said, "The
one, the first thing people stop doing is
taking lessons when they're struggling,
and you will pay us when you can."
Mm.
And I remember winning- a competition.
It was back in 2005, and I
got a check for, like, $5,000.
And I have never been so proud to have
gone and written David, I gave, wrote
David a check for a year of lessons, and
I gave him that check and a picture of
this winning, and it was, like, it was,
like, the first lesson, like, check I
had written him for lessons in years.
You know?
They just really appreciatedâ¦
Like, they would always say, "Watch
that person, they really ride
well," and I'd tell that person
to watch you 'cause you work hard.
And I didn't realize that was
kind of a backhanded compliment.
I was like, "Whatever.
I'll keep showing up."
And and along that road, I- I started
a sales business with a friend of mine
who's now, she's the Canadian chef
d'équipe and she lives in England.
But we started a business together.
She galloped with me in the morning,
and we, I taught a daughter of a
woman who got pretty excited with
what we were doing, and she helped us.
We started buying, importing
horses and selling them.
And it, at that time, we were in such,
we were right out, we were three miles
outside of town, and so we would sellâ¦
If, people would come and look
at our horses or we'd just drive
them around and- and we would
make money off of the commissions.
And then Nancy also at that
period of time bought a, bought
one horse for me to compete.
So she was my first real sponsor.
And she was wonderful.
So we kind of got these horses to ride
and sell, and then she owned, I think
she u- she ultimately ended up owning two
horses that I got to ride through kind
of the intermediate and advanced levels.
So that was really the first, the, my
first shot at upper level eventing.
I bought a horse off the track.
It was too much horse for me.
I traded it with the guy that I
worked for that wasn't so awesome.
And that horse ended up taking me up
to my first, what's now four star.
And I was 19 And and it was wild.
He was a really ⦠It
was Thoroughbred horse.
He was wonderful cross country.
And so I got my first kind of experience
with him, and then it would've been
a, a, another 10 years really before
I got back up to to the level again.
And then I had a very I had a really
hard time, like, probably in my mid-20s.
So I was in Middleburg.
I was working really hard.
I was kind of, like, knocking on the
door at times with these horses, but to
be frank, they weren't quite good enough
and neither was I, and I was spreading
myself really, really thin just with
work and, and my parents were split, had
split up, and I was getting hurt a lot.
Like, I injured myself a lot.
Like, I broke my femur.
Yeah.
I broke my ⦠Like, I
had metal in my femur.
Then I was just back on from that,
and I fell off and broke my hand and
my fingers and got plates in that.
I broke my collar bone.
Like, I just kept- Mm-hmm ⦠making
stupid choices 'cause I was tired and-
Rupert Isaacson: Mm
⦠Sinead Maynard: stupid and mad.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
Sinead Maynard: And then-
Rupert Isaacson: I've been there.
Yeah.
Sinead Maynard: Yeah.
Like, I think it's your 20s, right?
Rupert Isaacson: I was
old enough to know better.
Yeah.
I, I, yeah, I'll tell you
that story another time.
Sinead Maynard: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Sinead Maynard: Yeah.
It was it was just kind of I
was a little bit on a treadmill.
And I'd had one of the horses that
Nancy had w- was, was turning into
quite a nice horse, and I finallyâ¦
He won a big event, and then I
got on to a d- like, we have,
like, a developing riders list,
so it's the list before the list.
It's like, "We see
you're doing good things.
You're not quite good enough."
Who is
Rupert Isaacson: we?
The, the,
Sinead Maynard: the- Like Team USA.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Sinead Maynard: Like-
Rupert Isaacson: So you h- you had already
come under their notice at this point.
Sinead Maynard: Yeah.
So I- Was that through
Rupert Isaacson: the O'Connors?
Sinead Maynard: It, yeah, it was through
⦠'Cause I won a what was a three star.
So I won a big, at Radnor
Hunt, I won a big three star.
And so that's the level below
what you can actually get put
on an official training list.
Mm.
But if you win one, normally they'll
say, we have like a, a list that's, like,
like a talent spotting list basically.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Sinead Maynard: And once you get on that
list, you'll get some winter training
sessions, and they'll just kind of keep
their eye on you knowing that, like,
if you keep progressing, it might be
a horse in combination for the future.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Sinead Maynard: So I got on that
list, and then I think it was the next
season the horse moved up to the level
that, you know, was a, a, a fairly
big international level, and I had a,
a really a, a horrific fall, and the
horse broke his neck and died on course.
I- And it was, it wasâ¦
I mean, I still get, like, right
now, I just, I mean, that was a
long time ago, but it's still,
it's, it was very, very hard.
And something like that happens.
I mean, most people, obviously most
people that work with horses will
lose one one way or another, or
more, but it was a, oh, it was awful.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
It
Sinead Maynard: was awful.
So then I just had to make some
changes, so I just got the hell
out of Dodge and moved to England.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
That's an interesting- Swerve.
Sinead Maynard: Swerve to the right.
Rupert Isaacson: But that's an interesting
thing because, A, you weren't English.
Mm.
So I presume there were some visa
issues, and B, England is a very
expensive place to live and show
up, especially in the horsey world.
I mean, you can rent obviously a,
a trailer, caravan in somebody's
backyard and, you know, work their
ponies, but how did you manage
that, and why did you manage that?
That's-
Sinead Maynard: Mm
⦠Rupert Isaacson: not an easy transition
to make for a North American.
Sinead Maynard: So, so, Tommy,
the horse that passed away,
was insured, and we ended upâ¦
I bought a not a great horse,
honestly like quite a trickyâ¦
another, an, a thoroughbred horse
actually out of the jumpers.
And Na- we all kind of agreed, like
my, like David, who at that point
was kind of like a second dad, David
Rupert Isaacson: O'Connor
⦠Sinead Maynard: you know, he-
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah
⦠Sinead Maynard: yeah, you know,
he really was like, "Something's
gotta give," you know?
And he, and then my mom at this
point had remarried And her
husband was big in quail hunting.
Okay.
Like quail hunting and
quail shooting, and- Down
Rupert Isaacson: in South
Carolina it's a thing, yeah,
Sinead Maynard: yeah ⦠N- North-
yeah, they're in North Carolina.
The Carolinas.
It's- my husband still gets
confused which Carolina I'm from.
But he- Both of them, yeah ⦠so, yeah.
All of them.
All of the above.
Yeah.
And so, and Mark Phillips
was our US team coach.
Captain Mark
Phillips.
So I hadâ¦
Captain Mark Phillips.
Ex-husband of Princess Anne.
Okay.
Exactly.
And his daughter, Zara, is my age.
Okay.
And she had just won the
world championships on a horse
called Toytown, quite young.
And anyway, all these worlds
kind of started to come together.
Sorry, Mark
Rupert Isaacson: Phillips came
on one of the quail hunts.
Is that-
Sinead Maynard: So Mark
is the big quail hunter.
Okay.
And so Mark and my mom's new husband, my
stepdad- Mm ⦠had met quail hunting and
shooting, and blah blah blah over here.
I knew Mark from US eventing.
David knew Mark from US eventing, and
basically what happened is that we all
kind of got together and, and Mark came
to me and said, "You know, like Zaraâ¦
" Sh- he, he said, it's again another
thing, "Zara has had a lot of
competitive results but she hasn't
really mastered how to run a business.
You seem to be able to kind of get
by and just clock arou- around, and
work hard, and have a business, but
haven't had a ton of success in this.
Maybe you guys could work together.
Like maybe, maybe you could do
some freelance work for her.
We'll put you up at our farm,
you know, you come over here."
And so Nancy, who owned the, the
previous horses, was on board with
flying this young one over with me, and
I had a place to live, and I thought
I had some work, basically, that
I'd be able to kind of make it work.
And Jim, my stepdad, said, "Hey to help
you, I'll, I'll give you X amount of
money a week or a month to help you
get started on your living costs."
So that's
Rupert Isaacson: effectively a sponsor.
Yeah.
Sinead Maynard: Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, totally.
And and I went over there, and to
be honest it all, it was awful.
It was a disaster.
Like the Cotswolds were not
at all like South Carolina.
Rupert Isaacson: There is a word for the
Cotswolds- ⦠but I can't say it online.
Sinead Maynard: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: There- but think
of a four-letter word that begins
with C- ⦠that rhymes with
punt- ⦠and add wolds to it.
Sinead Maynard: I can, it,
I don't have to stretch.
Rupert Isaacson: And it's, it's, it's
because so many billionaires live there,
Sinead Maynard: Oh, yeah
Rupert Isaacson: because it's proxim-
beautiful countryside, proximity to
London, proximity to- Yeah ⦠so
lots of politicians as well.
So yeah, it has that rep.
That's a- Well, it wasn't- One
of my best friends lives in them,
and they are very beautiful, yeah.
Sinead Maynard: It's so
beautiful, and I love it now,
but it's like when I was thereâ¦
So when I was in Middleburg- Mm ⦠it
was very easy, like, it, you weren't
considered a second-class citizen to
work for the rich, if that makes sense.
Right.
Like, that's how I lived.
Like, I, I mean, I wouldâ¦
Miss Mars, Jackie Mars, Candy Bars,
was the biggest sponsor and owned the
farm that David and Karen were on.
Yeah.
I would go to dinner parties at her
house, but I was making, you know,
$5 an hour cleaning the stalls, doing
this whole thing, but you, it never
felt like there was a hierarchy.
Like, it felt fine.
You know, like,
Rupert Isaacson: and-
As long as you're white.
Sorry, had to say it.
Sinead Maynard: Well, word.
I mean, first world, like- I lived there
yes, totally.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, but, yes,
Sinead Maynard: yes,
Rupert Isaacson: I get it, yeah.
Sinead Maynard: And but when I went
to England, and when I went to that
area- Mm ⦠it was not that case.
Like, I never feltâ¦
I, I, it was not invited into
the house, if that makes sense.
And, I
Rupert Isaacson: totally do, and it's
so interesting because in other parts of
England in some ways actually, o- older,
more aristocratic even parts of England,
you would've been completely welcomed in.
But there is, in that particular area, a,
a sense of status among people- Yeah, yeah
⦠which I wouldn't say is representative.
Hence, hence the nickname of the area.
Yeah ⦠and you obviously fell
right into that, yeah, yeah.
Sinead Maynard: Yeah.
But and I think there's side doors in.
Like, I think if I had had
a five-star horse, like, I
could have had a side door in.
Well- You know, like things like
that, but- ⦠well, status ⦠yeah
And yeah, so it was kind of wild.
But David came over for Burley horse
trials, and I was just going to watch.
And I, I, heâ¦
I just said look, I think
I need to come home."
Like, I- Mm ⦠this was a disaster.
The, the horse that I came
over with is going terribly.
He's really struggling over here.
And I can't get enough work
to, like, ride enough horses
to make it worth the expense.
Mm-hmm.
And I c- I'm not making any money.
And you know.
And he said, "You got, I gotâ¦
I'm gonna introduce you to one
more person," and he introduced
me to William Fox-Pitt.
And William and his wife, Alice, invited
me down to Dorset for an interview.
And they needed a, a, a rider.
And I went down there, and I
was like, "These are my people."
Like, I went straight- When
Rupert Isaacson: was that?
What year was that?
Sinead Maynard: That was 2007.
Rupert Isaacson: So interesting.
2009, let me just tell you
a little Fox-Pitt story.
So I used to, when I was a boy
out hunting, I would follow
his mum across the field.
Oh,
Sinead Maynard: yeah?
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Because she would
hunt up in that area that I w- And
she was like, if you got behind her-
Sinead Maynard: Yeah
⦠Rupert Isaacson: y- y- she
could be like your North Star.
She was such- Yeah ⦠a good rider.
And then- Yeah, yeah ⦠after I published
The Horse Boy, I r- I was doing a demo
on how we work with autism at a big
English equestrian thing, and she showed
up, and I was like, "I used to ride
behind you, and you know, you basically
kept me safe over all those fences."
And she, then she said,
"Oh, well, my son's here."
She introduced me to William.
William just completely spontaneously
said, "Oh, well, why don't you come down
to mine, and we'll do a demo of what
you do with mine at my, with my horses."
Yeah.
"And I'll just get a bunch of people,
and they'll all donate to your charity."
I'm like, "Okay."
Yeah.
And I go down, and he's so nice,
and he gives me his best horse.
And he says- ⦠"Do it with this horse."
I'm like, "I can't do it with this horse.
You know, what if I- Yeah ⦠you
know, fuck him up," whatever, you know?
"No, no, do it with this horse."
Then I start playing around in hand
with the horse just to get know.
He goes, "Oh, that stuff.
I went to Saumur to learn that stuff.
Yeah, I should be doing that more.
I should be telling my
students to do it that more.
Yeah, it makes the horse more
bal- Yeah, it's how they,
that's how you learn feeling."
And what was so interesting, he couldn't,
him and Alice- There was just this utter
niceness and decency, and he was right
at the top of his game at that point.
Mm-hmm.
He was the number one in the world,
and he didn't have to do any of this,
but he did, and even down to the thing
of being nice and complimentary when
I'm dicking around with his pony.
You know?
Like, he didn't need to go that
extra mile to make me- No ⦠feel
comfortable, yet he did.
Yeah, yeah ⦠so yeah, so big fan- Yeah
of Team Fox Pitt, for sure.
Totally.
All right, so, so you,
you, you end up there, and-
Yeah ⦠things get better, right?
Sinead Maynard: Yeah, yeah.
It was, it wasâ¦
Well, yes.
So at that point, I was also very
fortunate, because Jim my stepdad,
decided, "Okay, you know what?
You're ⦠You need some more help.
You're a disaster.
How about we buy you a nice horse?"
Perfect.
And so there goes the, you know,
like, okay, the big leg up, right?
So-
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, yeah
⦠Sinead Maynard: but, but at that point
it was very interesting, because Iâ¦
It was gonna be him and Mark Phillips
deciding what this horse was.
And so I kept- Okay ⦠going
to look at horses.
Then they were like, "No, no."
And I'm like, "But I love this one.
This one's amazing."
"No, no, no."
And I finallyâ¦
I get this phone call from a friend
of mine, and she said, "Look, there's
a, there's a horse in France, and it's
doing, it's doing things that reallyâ¦
Like, it's being ridden by a friend of a
friend, blah, blah, blah, blah, whatever,
and you should go look at the horse.
Itâ¦
I don't know anything about it,
but it'll cost you 30 quid to hop
on the ferry to go look at it."
And I go, so I go to look at
this horse, and it walks out of
the stall, and I think, "I spent
too much on this ferry ticket."
You know, like that was so skinny
and ugly, and anyway, I, Iâ¦
H- It's thisâ¦
It was a seven-year-old French horse
that the family had bred, and the
family taught lessons, but they
also ran this event, Haras de Pin.
And it was-
Rupert Isaacson: Haras de Pin.
Sinead Maynard: I know.
I say it like the South Carolinian.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
So w- For people that don't know what
that is, that is a big effing deal.
Yeah.
Haras de Pin in Normandy is like- Big
cheesy, big cheesy, big cheesy squared.
Yeah, it's not like some
little mom and pop thing.
Come on.
Yeah.
Sinead Maynard: So they, their family,
like, ran the event here and bred- Okay
this horse, right?
All right.
Yeah.
So, so they're kind of, like, over here,
and then they're running this event here,
and they're all involved in this thing.
But this horse had kind of fallen through
the cracks because- Mm ⦠the gentleman
that was riding him was really doing more
jumpers, but he would run him at the event
because the event was there at their home.
And so the horse did, like, no
fitness work, and then it would
jump around to one star, and then
it jumped around to two star, and
then it jumped around to three star.
And you know- Mm ⦠like, I watched
videos in, like, the typical French way.
Like, the guy's, like, basically smoking a
cigarette, jumping off this massive bank,
and the horse is just like, "Whatever."
And so I rode him, and it was just,
like, a lovely horse, you know?
He just had a, three nice gaits.
He was quite shy.
And I remember jumping over, there
were, like, some just poles on
the ground, and he just was very
careful over the poles on the ground.
And I just, at this point,
I was so ready for a horse.
And it was funny because Mark and
Jim were, I don't know what, they
were busy or distracted, 'cause
I'm sure they would've said no.
I'm sure they would've said,
"This horse isn't fancy enough.
It doesn't have the record.
It's blah, blah, blah, blah."
But they were both kind of over me a
little bit, and just ready for me to have
a horse, so they, so we got this horse.
And I said to them, "Worst case, it's a
really good young rider's horse, okay?
Like, it'll, we can sell him, and
I can take him with me to Williams.
I'll have something to ride."
And so, so we ended up getting him,
and I was at my third day of work at
Williams, and he was down in their,
I'm sure you probably remember.
They have, like, a quarantine barn
at the other end of the arena.
So when horses come down, it's
like they've got- Mm-hmm ⦠like,
metal boxes down there.
And William had bought Alice a
surprise pony to foxhunt, and the
pony was being hidden down there.
And I went to feed the horses down
there the third day, and the pony had
gotten out and really messed with Tate.
Tate turned around, kicked
his leg through a metal door.
Tate
Rupert Isaacson: being the
horse that you've just-
Yes ⦠bought in France, right.
Sinead Maynard: Severing
his hind extensor tendon.
Rupert Isaacson: Nice.
Sinead Maynard: Yeah.
So we w- I wasn't sure what
was gonna happen at that point.
And we got him to the- to the vet, and
they were like, "Well, we'll just see."
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
Sinead Maynard: And so I, I,
ironically, I got this horse to ride
there, and he, and ultimately we
were so busy at William's I ended up
having to send him to a rehab place.
I only did one comp- I was in
England for almost two years,
and Tate, I think he was, I had
him for two months at William's.
The rest of the time he was rehabbing.
Yeah ⦠but the, the weird part about,
and it's funny 'cause I was actually
talking to Alice Fox-Pitt yesterday
about this, and the weird part about it
was it was 2008, I think, at this point.
We had, William had three horses
that was g- that were getting
ready for the Olympics at Beijing.
We had 28 horses that were all
competing at the international level.
William was competing all the time,
and for them, I didn't, I was so lucky,
'cause I was getting to ride so much.
And I mean, I was riding eight
of n- really nice horses a day.
And for them it worked, because normally
when they had a rider that was kind
of my age, mature en- I think I was
27 or 28, mature enough to, like, work
in the barn and have some common sense
and also ride pretty well, normally
those people have their own business
or they have their own sponsors.
So they don't, they're not the
person that can stay at home
and ride all these horses.
Mm-hmm.
So I got to ride Balmoral,
Tamarillo, Park Lane Hawk.
You know, like, probably probably whatever
horse was there when you were there.
Like, and it was, it was incredible,
and I wasn't actually competing
because my horse was hurt, so
I just rode all the- Yeah, but
Rupert Isaacson: you were learning.
You were learning-
Yes ⦠learning, learning.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Sinead Maynard: Yes.
So that was pretty, that
was pretty incredible.
And yeah, basically Tate the horse
came back kind of the last few months
I was there, and I thank God, because
William gave me such incredible help
and advice with that horse because he
was quite unusual in his way of going.
And William just said to me, he said two
things that were really important, because
at that point- I had never ridden at the
five-star level, and as you know, by the
time you're 30, most of the time if you've
been doing it for that long, you would
have ridden at that level, and worked
under the people that I'd worked under.
And he said, "Look, if you don't
go five star by the time you're 30,
it's just not in the cards for you.
Like, you ride well enough,
and this horse is good enough.
So if you don't go, go do something
else so you don't waste your life."
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Okay.
Sinead Maynard: And I was
like, "Wow, that's heavy."
And and then he also said about T- he
said, "The horse is good enough as he is.
Like, he's shy.
Build his confidence.
Make sure he's looking where he's going.
But don't let them change him.
They're gonna wanna change the way
that he jumps, 'cause he has an
unusual style, but he's careful enough.
He's good enough."
So, and anyway, I, I ended up taking him
home, and he just, pshew, was phenomenal.
Like, he, 2008, he was top three
at the National Championships.
2009, same thing.
He moved up a level.
2010, I went to a Nations Cup in
Holland in Bocole and s- silver medal.
2011 my 30th birthday, I
did my first five star.
He was third behind
Mary King, one and two.
2012, first reserve for
the London Olympics.
Second place at Burley.
Rupert Isaacson: So that, that string
of, so you said I, I took him home.
You, you don't, you're not saying, or are
you saying you took him home to the USA?
Sinead Maynard: Yes.
Or- I took him home to the USA
⦠Rupert Isaacson: and the, but
then you go over to Boekelo in
the Netherlands, and then you're-
Mm-hmm ⦠at Burghley in the UK.
Mm-hmm.
When a, a listener listens to this,
what, what they have to realize is that
this is a horse flying around a lot.
And, Yeah ⦠I have flown horses around.
It's really expensive.
Mm-hmm ⦠how do you afford it?
Sinead Maynard: The US paid for it.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Ah, so the- Yeah, grants ⦠by that
point you're on their radar- Yeah ⦠and
they're like, "Okay, you're Team USA."
Yeah.
"We're behind you."
Sinead Maynard: Yeah, yeah.
Okay.
So, and I, yeah, all the
flights were grants, so they
would pay, pay for that to go.
So we're, we're very lucky
in the US is that itâ¦
Like in Canada, it's interesting because
Canada, for their, all their athletics,
they have, they've got carded athletes,
so you can get a monthly stipend.
US doesn't have that, but
we have a lot of grants.
So we like developing riders, European
tours, things like that, we have
a lot of money that's earmarked to
send people overseas to compete.
Okay.
So if you're, if you get yourself
to that point, then most of
the time you get support.
Rupert Isaacson: It's good to know
the ins and outs of this, 'cause I
think a- a- a lot of us looking at it
from the outside actually just wonder,
"Well, how the hell do they do it?"
You know?
Yeah.
And you just assume that it's, I guess
you do assume at a certain point if
it's like the Olympics or something
that they're gonna pay for that.
Yeah.
But if it's to get you to something like
Burghley or Badminton- Mm-hmm ⦠or
Rolex Kentucky- Mm-hmm ⦠you would
sort of expect that the, the, the rider
has to do that privately, and it's, it's
quite nice actually to know that the,
that our taxpayer money - Yeah ⦠is
Sinead Maynard: going-
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah ⦠is
going towards- Yeah ⦠something,
you know, fa- constructive.
That's quite nice, actually.
Yeah.
Sinead Maynard: So they, every twice a
year, you basically have these training
lists where, you know, like I had said
earlier, like there's a developing list
that I had made it on, and then o- if
you get to the next level and you have
some good results, you can kind of getâ¦
And I'm a team selector now, so I
get to see it from this other side.
So you, You kind of have this pool
of riders, and you have certain
ones that are like, would be like
on your A list, and there's maybe
only three or four on that list.
Mm-hmm.
And then you have your next list
that has like, you know, 10.
And so all of those people you're trying
to get overseas, you're trying to get
them to compete so that they're- Okay
super prepared for Olympic Games,
World Championships Pan American Games,
anything, anything along those lines.
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
I, I guess that makes sense 'cause if
somebody were to drop out last minute
or something, then you've gotta have
a replacement, so you've gotta have
those other people- Mm-hmm ⦠up to
snuff and able, and the horse- Yeah
is able to go and cope
in new places, et cetera.
Sinead Maynard: Yeah.
You said- Like, normally when you send
in like, your nominated entries for like,
say a World Championships or something
like that, you can send in up to like
12 to 14 horse and rider combinations.
Okay.
And then you whittle that down.
Mm.
You pick your team.
Like, so for the Olympics it's only three.
For the World Championships it's
four and one individual, and
then you rank your alternates.
And then depending on the country,
you would probably fly, and where
they are, fly two alternates just
in case you need to slip one in.
But you would have this big list because
like the US now, we didn't used to,
but we would name our squad almost a
month early so that everybody feels like
secure in what they need their final
preps to be, as opposed to kind of like
competing to the bitter end and then
maybe not prepping the way they should.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Sinead Maynard: So yeah, there's,
there tends to be at like this
revolving list all the time.
Rupert Isaacson: So you getâ¦
You, you have all these wins,
and you, you, you do really
well What happened to them?
Sinead Maynard: We all got old, Rupert.
The horse got old.
So, after 212 Jim decided that he didn't
want to be an owner, honestly, anymore.
Like, he, he had other things in
his life that he wanted to do, and
that was kind of a leg up for me.
So what he graciously did was he gave me
an amount of time to find a syndicate to
put together- Okay ⦠to buy the horse.
And he offered the horse at
a fairly reasonable price.
So we put together a syndicate, and that
syndicate owned him for the next while.
I mean, he had aâ¦
Heâ¦
We ended up going, which was wild.
So I missed out on the Olympics, and
then had a really good season 2014,
and made the world championship teams,
which was in Normandy, France, which was
where he was bred, which was very cool.
Ah, there you go.
So his- Yeah.
Yeah.
It was very, very neat.
So his breeders were there.
It was awesome.
Fast-forward even now, like, the
designer for the Paris Olympics,
Pierre Le Gruel, was his breeder.
His family bred the horse.
So it's, it's, like, this neat,
you know, it's, there's only
so many degrees of separation.
So we went to world championships.
And then 2015 was a bit of a rough year.
I lost my dad, and then, you
know, kind of the wheels came
off there for a little bit.
And somehow managed to climb back into
the top 10 at Kentucky, and so I got on
the lists for the Rio Olympics But I was
down on those lists, but still took part
in the training sessions, and then as kind
of a consolation prize, they sent me to
Ireland to compete at a competition there.
And unfortunately the horse sustained an
injury at that point that was basically
gonna take him out of that level.
It was kind of a reoccurring suspensory
issue that we had managed his whole
career, and at that point it- he
was 16 years old, and that level of
sport was getting a bit much for him.
And that all kind of coincided
with at that point really Tick
and I, you know, throughout that
time, like I'd gotten married.
We spent a lot of money kind of chasing
this dream, and didn't have much to
show for it at that point in time.
And the way that the syndicate
was structured, to be f- frank,
it wasn't structured very well.
I didn't own a hair of the
horse, and I paid for basically
half of him all the time.
So we were pretty, pretty skint.
So at that point we decided toâ¦
We really needed to lay
down some roots somewhere.
And that's when we ended up thinking
about buying a farm, and so then we
had to get pretty creative about that.
And yeah, but that, that did
end up coming together in 2016.
We bought a farm down here in Florida.
And, and then honestly, we kind of
had to push some of the competitive
goals aside for a bit and figure out.
It took us five years to be
able to take over the mortgage.
We really utilized some friends
and people that we had worked with
for a while that helped us with,
we had one friend that gave us an
interest-free, gave us a year of an
interest-free loan for the down payment.
Another f- couple that we worked for
that actually bought the farm as a second
farm, and then we did like a balloon
mortgage, and then we had to build up
enough credit to be able to buy it.
So the, the next five years
was a bit of a hustle.
Our first son, our first child was born.
So that was all a blur.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
It's interesting, you know, because
I think when people look at it from
the outside and they see a successful
equestrian competition career-
Sinead Maynard: Mm
⦠Rupert Isaacson: what is very, what
of course never gets reported is just
what a hustle the whole thing is.
Sinead Maynard: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Now obviously
there are some people I think
who can come from enough money-
Sinead Maynard: Sure
⦠Rupert Isaacson: and then ease
their way into sponsorship.
But even those people, I've known
a few of them, they've got to
maintain or they lose the sponsors.
Mm.
And it, the whole thing is quite stressy.
Sinead Maynard: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: If you're looking
at the horse world from the
non-competitive angle, a, a lot of
people would say, "Well, why do it?"
Mm-hmm.
Like, whyâ¦
Is, is that not just buying into ego
and competitiveness and stress on horses
and you know, all the bad stuff, right?
Mm-hmm.
Which we know goes on.
Sinead Maynard: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: But of course
it's not the whole of the story.
And, you know, where we were back at
the beginning, I think particularly
with the eventing world, I never met an
event horse, either of my own, I never
obviously got to your level, but I jumped
some big things in some, you knowâ¦
We only would ever one day event.
But nonetheless, if you go far enough with
that, you could face some scary stuff.
Sure.
And again, the camaraderie is really
good, and it's mostly just people
with jobs who have a horse, and this
is what they love to do, so that's
what they spend their money on doing.
And they maybe don't go on vacation,
or they maybe don't have a nice car.
They just do this thing.
Yeah.
But-
It, what, what do you say?
'Cause the horse world is changing so
much now, and it used to be when you
and I, I mean, obviously I'm 800 years
older than you, but- ⦠given that
we're- It's not that ⦠somewhat out of
the same culture- Yeah ⦠when I was a
boy, it was all about the competition.
Mm.
And the happy hackers were looked down on.
Mm.
Now, when I go out and do all the
dressage training, which I only
ended up in by accident through the
back door with autism people say,
"Well, I'm just a happy hacker.
I, I don't ne-" I'm saying, "Yes, me too.
That's what I do."
"But I just wanna do it on a horse that's
awesome, and I wanna do it on a horse
that's happy, and I wanna do it on a
horse that's healthy and well-balanced
and full of bubbly wellbeing."
And I also think it's quite fun to
pop flying changes around things
and to do a little piaffe here, a
little passage there, 'cause it's,
feels creative and it feels fun and
it feels joyful and non-stressy, and
there's no competitive side to it.
It's just us practicing
the art, effectively-
Mm-hmm ⦠out there in nature.
Why not?
So yeah- Yeah ⦠let's be happy ha-
let's be happier hackers, you know?
Little, happiest hackers or however
we'd like to- ⦠you know, do it.
That's
Sinead Maynard: competitive.
Don't- Yeah ⦠I wanna be
the happiest hacker there is.
And you
Rupert Isaacson: know, once-
Sinead Maynard: I'm gonna be
the freaking happiest hacker.
Rupert Isaacson: That's right.
That's right.
I'm not compe- not a
competitive bone in my body.
Sinead Maynard: Not competitive at all.
No.
But I'm happier than
Rupert Isaacson: you are.
None at all.
Yeah, yeah.
Happier than thou.
⦠And then of course, you know, if I'm,
if I am out, then of course I'm always
looking for something to pop, you know?
So I can't be anywhere.
Like, "Ooh, pop that.
Ooh, ooh, pop that.
Ooh, maybe I could pop that," you know?
So, but why compete?
And- I think let's just
meet that one head-on.
I think I could posit some
things about why, but from your
point of view, why compete?
Why even bother?
Right?
You say you're a selector
now for the US team.
Sinead Maynard: Yeah.
I
Rupert Isaacson: mean, why?
Why not just roll your eyes and just
enjoy ponies and practice the art?
Yeah.
Sinead Maynard: Oh, pr-
probably, you know, I love
competing, but two, two things.
Well, this is it.
Let me tell you this.
Rupert Isaacson: So, so go into that.
Yeah.
Go into why you love
Sinead Maynard: competing.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: As you know, if
you followed any of my work, I'm
an autism dad and we have a whole
career before this podcast in helping
people with neurodivergence, either
who are professionals in the field.
Are you a therapist?
Are you a caregiver?
Are you a parent?
Or are you somebody with neurodivergence?
When my son, Rowan, was
diagnosed with autism in 2004,
I really didn't know what to do.
So I reached out for mentorship, and
I found it through an amazing adult
autistic woman who's very famous, Dr.
Temple Grandin.
And she told me what to do.
And it's been working so
amazingly for the last 20 years.
That not only is my son basically
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countless, countless thousands
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Working in schools, working at
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If you would like to learn this
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approach, it's called Movement Method.
You can learn it online, you
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Let yourself be mentored as I was by Dr.
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Go to this website, newtrailslearning.
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Let us know how it goes for you.
We really want to know.
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live their best life, to live
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Sinead Maynard: First of all, I amâ¦
You can ask anybody, I
am not a brave person.
Like, I am not an adrenaline junkie.
I do not likeâ¦
I do n- I hate cross-country schooling.
Like, I have to have somebody
go with me to make me jump
something bigger than a log.
And but I love, I'm fortunate, I'm
fortunate enough, like the relationship
I had with the horse Manoir de Carneville
was so phenomenal that it showed
me, like, what a high-performance
relationship can look like.
Yes, but you could do
Rupert Isaacson: that- It showed me-
without, without competing.
Sinead Maynard: Iâ¦
See, I don't know if I can.
I mean, maybe I can.
Okay, b- I mean, that's not, but-
Rupert Isaacson: So let's go into
the psychology of this a bit.
Sinead Maynard: Sure, sure.
So for me, when I, like, and, and 'cause
I live this now, like I'm competing now,
I, I will be riding my horse at home.
I'll feel like this relationship is great.
I have this thing I have this thing
you know, that we're having this great
dialogue back and forth, and then what
I wanna do is I take it out to a local
show, and I put that a little bit
under pressure, a little bit of a test.
Can I execute all of these
things and show, like, we can
communicate under pressure.
We can have this thing work,
and, you know, I can, I can
do two plus two is four.
I can do pl- four plus
four is eight, right?
And then as you go up the levels,
like that becomes more complicated.
Like, here, well, can you
do all of these things?
And it's mapped out very, very
clearly, and it's very progressive.
And what I find more often than not
is I'm like, "Oh yeah, this isâ¦
I'm killing the game."
And then I go to a horse show, and
I'm like okay, I found a flaw."
I found, like, that actually I didn't
realize that this horse is, is more
concerned, you know, I, he's been
fine around the barn, this and that,
whatever, but when I take him to the
horse show, he's actually doesn't have
the confidence I thought he had in me or
in the environment or in the pressure or
in the noise or in the change of place.
He doesn't have that,
so what do I need to do?
I need to go home, and I need
to build that confidence.
I need to go to the round pen, or I need
to put him in the rope halter because
right now I've just, I've gone out on
cross-country, and I can't slow down.
Why can't I slow down?
So instead of going to a bigger bit,
I go home, and I put on a rope halter,
and I go and jump in a rope halter.
Until I can jump everything
in the rope halter, I don't go
back out to the competition.
And so for me, competition
has always been real feedback,
not like what I think is good.
Like, but there's a, there's a standard.
There's an expectation.
It, a lot, some of it is,
is not subjective, and some
of it is very subjective.
Like your dressage test
is- Fairly subjective.
You know, unless you're,
unless you don't do the thing.
The cr- the show jumping and the cross
country, it's this, it's the same thing.
And then you've got kind of this
fitness element to it, and then
also my s- like my skill set,
like now it's more muscle memory.
Like, so much of it is muscle memory,
and I can't tell you, like, when I'm
jumping a horse and I- or going cross
country or my body just operates in
the way wi- with the horse that it
athletically I feel like it's just like,
pew, so good, it feels, like, incredible.
It like, it, I'm like, "This
is where I'm supposed to be.
This is where, what I'm
supposed to be doing."
And when I'm training,
I'm pretty analytical.
Like, I'm pretty, like I'm thinking
about what I'm doing all the time.
I'm thinking about the, what the horse
is thinking, how we're working together.
And then when I go to a horse
show, it's kind of like it needs
to slip into a different mentality.
It needs to be feel and timing
and, and instincts and not thought.
Any time I start thinking too much
at a horse show, it all goes wrong.
There has to beâ¦
Like, it's funny too, like,
there's, I get really nervous.
Like, I, I, I'm very nervous.
Like, it's hard to talk to
me before I go cross country.
I have to get, like, really, really quiet.
But I learned a lot of skills from when
I got, when I broke my femur, basically.
That was a pretty horrible surgery and
come back to, and I was really scared.
Like, I was really, really scared.
But the only way that I was
making money, Rupert, was riding
racehorses and competing horses.
Like, that, that's the
only skill set I had.
Not that I couldn't go do something.
Oh, I was working a, I was a really
bad waitress, so that wouldn't,
wouldn't have turned into much.
But I remember calling
David and- Yeah, you threw
Rupert Isaacson: me out
before I could even tip you.
Yeah, I know.
Sinead Maynard: It's terrible.
I know.
You, well, you probably told
me- Let's save the money there
I was a terrible waitress, and I
was like, "Don't tell anybody else.
Get out."
And they you know, I called David.
I was at this horse show, and I said,
"I am s- I am freaking terrified.
Like, I don't wanna leave the box."
And he just said to me,
"One jump at a time."
He said, "Go, like, jump, like go to
the start box, jump the first jump.
If you don't wanna jump the second jump,
come home, but just one jump at a time."
And it was so funny because- I
went and I jumped the first jump,
and I'm like, "Okay, I'm okay."
Jump the second jump, "Okay, I'm okay."
Get kind of to the fourth jump, I
jump, drop into the water, right?
And you have to drop into the
water and go right to some log or
something, and I turn right and go,
"Nope, don't wanna jump that jump."
And I do this circle, and I
look back at it and I'm like,
"I think I can jump that jump."
So I jump the jump, and I, I
make my way, 157 time penalties
and a 20 later, get through.
And I'm like, you know, "I'm okay.
I'm okay."
And I had a friend come up to me and
she goes, "What happened at the water?
It, it almost looked like you,
like, pulled the horse out of
the jump, like, you circled."
I'm like, "Oh, I don't know.
He spooked at something.
It was weird."
And but I w- And then I started
reading a lot of books on sports
psychology, and I found it very
intriguing, and I learned how toâ¦
Like, I learned a really important
skill set and lear- started to get to
know myself a lot, that I could, eight
strides out from the fence, I could,
my focus could just calm down, and
all I would be at was, was the jump.
All the other things would settle down.
And in the warmup it
wasn't always like that.
In the warmup I'd be nervous, I'd
be thinking, blah, blah, blah.
But I just kind of, I think just it
started at that one competition where
I just got so laser focused on this,
like, one jump, and then I would go
broad focus and then narrow focus, and
then broad focus and then narrow focus.
And it became a skill set, and
it, that r- has really helped me.
And, like, visualization has been huge.
Like, I'll walk a course, like at Kentucky
I would walk five times, and I wouldn't
leave a jump until I could get through
visualizing exactly how I want it to go.
But I could feel, like I knew the horse so
well, I could feel what he was gonna see.
You know?
Like, I knew what, how
he was gonna respond.
I would, I would feel myself put
my leg on and him stall, and I'd be
like, "Nope, gotta do that again.
I might have to put my leg
on two strides earlier."
You know?
And it, then you'd go out,
and you'd execute this thing
together, and it's just likeâ¦
Yeah, I mean, I guess that's probably
the, you know, the nerves and then
the calm, and then the relief and then
the reward, and then the animals, like
the athletic ability and partnership
and engagement of these animals,
like you say, that just love it.
Like, the ones that do it at that level,
they're just like- They're like another
be- I mean, it's incredible, you know?
Like-
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah
⦠Sinead Maynard: and so for me, I think
the competition helps me actually get
out of the analytical side, give me
real feedback, w- puts me, it gets me
in check with what's real as opposed
to, like, what I think is real.
Like, I'm like, "Okay,
this was a real issue."
And right now, the- the challenge and
the fun part for me, because, you know,
getting back to the joy of it all,
like at the end of my career with that
horse, I was not having a good time.
Like, I was ⦠I mean, I remember being
in Ireland an hour before my show jumping,
getting a phone call from the girls at
home saying the credit card was bouncing.
We didn't have enough money to pay for
the feed that needed to come the next day.
Like, I was really struggling with
some of the people in the syndicate
'cause they wanted ⦠I'm not even
supposed to talk, like they- they wanted
to take the horse away, basically.
And you know, it was like this
whole, we were so skint, and
there was no horse coming behind.
You know, we had just had this family
tragedy, and I'd- I'd had a miscarriage.
Like, we were struggling getting pregnant.
Like, it was just like all of this.
It was horrible.
Like, and I just thought ⦠And- and I
c- Rupert, like I can't tell you how many
times I wish I didn't ⦠And my life
would be so much easier if I didn't wanna
compete, like, if I didn't love that.
And there's been so many times where,
like after I had my first kid, I
was like, "Maybe, maybe I'll change.
Maybe, like, I'll just be like,
wow, I just don't wannaâ¦"
But, like, I have this, like, thing in me
that just loves that challenge of it, and
the- the feedback, and then the training.
I love the training.
I love it so much.
Like, I ⦠It's like the running joke
here, like Tick and I are so different.
Like, Tick goes out on the hack
path, and he's doing all this stuff,
and I'm just like, like, they- you
have to force me to go on a hack.
Like, I- if I'm on a hack, I have to,
like- It's, I have to force myself not to
be like, "Oh, I'm gonna work on this halt,
and then I'm gonna rein back, and then I'm
gonna leg yield, then I'm gonna do this
thing, I'm gonna do this thing," 'cause
I just wanna see, like, what can we do?
What's possible?
And for me, moving into it again in
this part of my life, one of the biggest
challenges is to keep the joy and to keep
the fun, and it's ver- ⦠Like, that's
been really hard because I, there's a
part of me that's probably, you know,
some deep-ingrained stuff that's, like,
you know, wants, wants to get to that
Olympics and wants to do that thing, and
I, I don't really know why that's there,
like, why that, that North Star is there,
but I have to try really hard to keep
myself in the present and enjoyingâ¦
You know, like, I was competing this
past weekend, and I have this lovely
Irish horse, and he's been going so
great, and then he got into the warmup
and he g- he just, you know, made best
friends with the horse in the trailer
on the five-minute drive over there.
And every other event, I've made
sure to spend a lot of timeâ¦
He, he just is a bit Irish, and he's so
funny, but he, you know, he likes to play
around on the rope before I get on him.
He wants to rear, and he
wants to buck, and he wants to
jump, and it's not malicious.
He just, he gets distracted- Wants
to play ⦠he gets distracted.
He wants to play.
Mm.
And, and he's Irish enough
that if you were to go at
him, you know, he's a big guy.
He, they just- They'd,
Rupert Isaacson: they'd
have a fight, yeah.
Sinead Maynard: Yeah, so I just let him
play, and then- Yeah ⦠he goes to work.
And this time he's been so grown
up, the last little while, I just
hopped on him, and then I thought,
"That was a terrible idea."
And and at that point, I just had
to kind of navigate the dressage,
and and, and figure it out, and I
just thought, "That was so stupid."
And then I went jumping,
and he was so great.
He was so amazing, and he
finished second to last.
You know?
And it was awesome because it's the best
he'd ever gone in the jumping phases,
and I let him go slow because he wasn't
competitive, which m- helped him get more
rideable on the cross-country because
he's normally just taking everything
on, and, and it was like that part
is in me, too, where I can find a lot
of joy in being second to last, but
I just know the training's going the
right way, and then I get so excited
because I'm like, "I know what they
need to be able to do at that level."
Like, I know, and, and now if Iâ¦
Before, I didn't.
You know?
Like, before, I didn't know.
I was just so eager to get there,
I just gave everything up and
compromised whatever and sold my
soul a little bit to some syndicate
stuff, and I'm like, "I don't care.
I just wanna get there."
And then I got there, and I was like,
"Well, it sucks being here like this."
Like, I have one of the nicest
horses in the world, and I have an
amazing relationship with this horse,
and it is being, like, murdered
because of all of the stuff that
I've gotten myself entangled with.
That is the un-fun, the
un-cool part of competitiveness
that you were talking about.
And so for me now, I'm like,
"Oh yeah, I wanna do that,
but I wanna do it this way."
You know?
Rupert Isaacson: Let me ask
a devil's advocate question.
Yeah.
So, you know, you've got the horse
world, the, the competitive people,
the non-competitive people, and
the non-competitive people- Mm-hmm
sometimes have been competitive people.
And maybe they left with a bad taste
in their mouth, or maybe they just- Mm.
Yeah ⦠evolved away from
it for whatever reason.
Sinead Maynard: Sure.
Rupert Isaacson: Maybe they,
you know, like for me, I've got
nothing against competing at all.
I just, it's just not me.
Sinead Maynard: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, yeah ⦠but I
scratch the itch to a certain degree,
but I'm also not, I just also don't
happen to be competitive in that way.
But I think that the question that
people would pose, and this is kind
of a good one, is I can absolutely
understand all of the psychology
that you just described personally.
Mm-hmm.
You know, and you come from warrior
stock, you know, and there is that desire
to go test yourself on the battlefield.
You're a Viking Celt, you know, that's
the are- that's that area of Ireland.
That's- Mm-hmm ⦠who the people are.
I've got plenty of friends there.
And but why put the horse through that?
Sinead Maynard: Mm.
Rupert Isaacson: Now, that's not
meant as a shitty trap question.
Yeah,
Sinead Maynard: yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Because you and
I both know, as you say, that the
horse that doesn't enjoy particularly
cross-country, you'd be unwise to
get on its back and try, because
it'll probably end in a wreck.
Mm-hmm ⦠so the enjoyment is built in,
I know from personal experience, but not
everyone has that personal experience.
Sinead Maynard: Sure.
Rupert Isaacson: From your point of
view, w- do we have the right as riders?
You know, I have to ask myself
this sometimes when I'm training
horses, because, you know, I've got
my dressage hat on and, you know,
someone wants to train their horse
up through the upper levels, and I
start getting a feeling that maybe
the horse wants to go a different way.
Yeah.
And that there's dressage for
every horse, 'cause there's these
three different types of dressage.
There's, you know, working equitation, y
doma vaquera, California vaquero-y stuff.
That's dressage.
There's the bullfighting and
combat, medieval combat styles.
That's you know, rejoneo and what they
call in Germany, Rossfechten, Ross
being the name for like a steed, fechten
is fencing, and that's a real art,
and it's all dressage all the time.
And then there's what we think
of as dressage, which is people
in that rectangular arena doing
something semi-abstract and balletic.
But quite often, because that's the only
dressage people know, you know, I'll
say to someone, "You know, I don't think
this horse really wants to do this.
I think he might-" Yeah
"want to do that.
But I do get that this is your only
horse, and you want to do this."
Mm-hmm.
You know, so is it possible to kind
of tribe up with some people who have
some different horses, so maybe there's
someone in that tribe that wants to
explore these other forms, maybe can
play with your pony, and maybe there's
someone in there who has a horse that
really likes this abstract stuff.
Can you guys negotiate something?
Then you went to, "Well, no
one else can ride my horse."
But what I find is actually people
do- ⦠find their way, actually.
Once they-
Sinead Maynard: Sure
⦠Rupert Isaacson: face that demon of
no one can touch my horse and realize
actually maybe the horse doesn't give
that much of a shit- ⦠then they
often find some happiness that way.
So, but so do we have the right as
monkeys to impose our monkey-nesses-
At all?
Sinead Maynard: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: What do you think?
Sinead Maynard: I mean, I think it's a
great question, and I think if you're in
the industry, you have to constantly be
asking yourself that, and having those
types of real conversations, realâ¦
The look at yourself in the
mirror and make sure you're
doing right by your horse.
And I think as long as you've got
the horse's welfare and interests in
mind every time you get on, I think
you're asking the right questions.
And I think there are a lot of horses now
that are bred for high performance sport.
Like, it's in- Mm ⦠their genes.
Like, if you put them in the field,
they are jumping out of that field.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, yeah.
Sinead Maynard: And I think that
one of the coolest things, and I
think you can see it across a m- a
multitude of different species, is
the level of engagement that these- Mm
animals can have, and that they seek, and
that they seek this harmony, and they seek
this partnership, and they seek this fun.
And look, we all start with, like,
this need for safety and comfort, but
when we can get past that, when we
can get to curiosity, we can get to
play, like, that's the real stuff.
And then when you meet- Yeah
a horse that has been bred to jump,
and he's got the blood to run, and
then you put that with somebody
that may be a Viking like me
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah
⦠Sinead Maynard: is like, "Let's go."
You know?
Yeah.
That is, that is what is amazing.
Now, to your point- That is rare.
It, it is, and I find that, I find myself
so lucky to have met the, the horse that
I've met, and it's made it very tricky
getting back to the high-performance
level of the sport, because I'm very
quick to say, I d- I can't tell you in
the last six years how many horses I've
bought with the intention of filling
those shoes that now is lovely in the
hunter ring, or is lovely doing lower
level dressage, and is so happy to do it.
Like, I've, I've only, there's only
been one horse that I haven't been
able to, to move on that I thought
wanted to do something else, and that
honestly we ended up finding out he
had some compression in his spine that
we needed, or in his neck that is, is
gonna need you know, some attention.
But d- I am very quick to say, "I'm
not, we're, we're, there's nothing
about me that's gonna make you do this."
Like, this is, we, you gotta love
it, and we gotta love it together.
And I'm happy to go, like with, like
the Irish, the young Irish horse that
I have, he's at times loves it, like
I, and I don't say this in the way
of like, "My horse loves jumping.
He bolts at everything," because that's
like obviously we know that's not cool.
But he, he's a quite a, an independent
horse, so he doesn't always like
get the training side of it, so
I'm always side dooring with him
because I, the feeling I get from
him when he starts jumping is joy.
Like, he is just- Yeah ⦠like joyful.
And so, you know, long answer
to your question is that I think
a- like everything, it depends.
I think it depends on the athlete.
I think it depends on the horse.
It depends on the human.
It depends on the intention of the person.
Yeah.
I think it depends on the open-mindedness
to set to call it when it, this isn't
working, like this isn't the match.
And one of the things I always say
when I first meet a student or there's
somebody that comes to me with their goals
says, "Are your goals with this horse?
Because we might have to, if this horse
is what y- whatever this horse wants
to do, we're gonna, we're gonna need to
find some different skillsets for you.
Let's go to the round pen.
Let's go over here.
Let's do this."
But if your goals are, "I wanna do this
level," this horse isn't, isn't the
one, and we'll find a nice life for this
horse, and let's find you something else.
Like, that's just the real
conversation that has to be had
all the time, and it's really hard.
Rupert Isaacson: Well, I think what you,
y- you, you, you used a good word there.
You used the word intention, you used
the word play, and I think whenever you
team, when- whenever monkeys come into
the picture, you know, it, intention of
course is going to drive the whole thing.
And what is intention but emotion?
And what is emotion?
There's two emotions.
There's fear and love, really, basically.
All the shitty ones are some version
of fear, and all the- Yeah ⦠lekker,
yummy, irie ones are some version of love.
So my feeling with a lot of
these things is- Does it feel
like it's coming from love?
Mm-hmm.
Or does it feel like
it's coming from fear?
And it can get funky in all of our
lives because we're funky monkeys.
And God didn't invent horses to
have monkeys riding around on them.
That was monkeys that came
up with that idea, you know?
And there were some fairly
practical reasons for it.
Although lots of monkeys
have paid the price.
But- ⦠of course, horses have, too.
Y- then you said something else,
which is can it feel like play?
Mm.
And I think that's, which
is a form of love, right?
And when you're describing your Irish
horse, you know, we, for example,
Whether it's for the therapeutic side
or for the dressage side, because we
always encourage people to do both.
You know, we'll say, "Well,
do you maybe want to give
something back with this horse?
Maybe this horse would actually
like to be in service."
Horses do respond well to that.
We, we have aâ¦
We, we noticed a lot of depressed horses.
We noticed a lot of explosive horses.
We noticed a lot of unhappy horses of
one kind or another, and that there
was often this kind of antagonistic
relationship between owner and horse.
Doâ¦
It, it, no matter what theâ¦
Including in the therapeutic world.
Mm ⦠horses are playful.
So we came up with this thing because we
had to keep our horses for a while in a
very imperfect situation, where we were in
Germany, and we couldn't afford to buy a
farm, and we'd just moved there, so we had
to keep them in a regular yard, and they
don't really put them out in the winter.
We're like, "Shit."
Mm.
You know, our horses come
from- Yeah ⦠Texas.
They live out all the time.
Okay, what are we gonna do?
So we came up with the idea of crazy
time, and so luckily one thing you could
do in this indoor arena was free jump.
And because our horses are an
integrated herd, we could free jump
them in, like, groups of up to four- Mm
even though the ar- arena wasn't huge,
and we'd change it every two minutes.
We'd make the jumps look weird and funky.
We'd put teddy bears in them.
We'd chuck yoga balls at them.
We'd, you know, whatever, and the
horses got, really got into it.
They'd go in there, and they'd,
like, see the first jump and go.
And then the, for two minutes,
then they stand, and they look
at you going, "That all you got?"
And then we'd have to change
it- Yeah ⦠and make it kind of
interesting again in some way.
And we found that this was the golden
key and that this initiated play.
And then we realized, oh, my gosh, we
could, we can teach this way because
you can teach horsemanship this way.
You can teach about fitness this way.
You can take a group of
schoolchildren in there and say,
"Which horse is the fastest?
I don't know.
How do you calculate speed?
Well, you got to walk the long side.
How many meters is that?
Then we got to time how long
it takes the horse to go down.
Then we do a little
calculation on our cell phone.
Distance over time gets speed.
We've just taught you some physics,
just taught you some math."
And we realized, oh, my gosh, you know,
if, if we hadn't been in this dilemma of-
Mm ⦠how to get play in a non-playful
situation, we wouldn't have stumbled
into this really good use of play.
So i- is that a long-winded way,
'cause I'm long-winded, of saying
that as long as it sort of feels a
bit like play for the pony, it's okay.
Mm.
And as long as it doesn't,
it's sort of not okay.
But we can look at strategies
to bring it back there.
Sure.
Is that sort ofâ¦
Does that sort of make it-
Sinead Maynard: 100%.
And I think with that, there's
the caveat of a skill set, but I
think skill sets for riders can be
learned in very, I think most horses
like patterns, and skill sets- Mm
can be learned in a very safe and
repetitive non-threatening way.
Like, we do a lot-
Yeah ⦠of cavaletti work.
You know, like, because I don't think, I
think the caveat for that is not, like,
when you are competing, and you are
jumping jumps, and you're riding horses at
speed, you gotta have the skill set too.
You can't just be like, "This is
gonna be great fun," you know?
Yeah, sure.
Because that becomes un-fun for the horse.
So- Well, indeed ⦠I think that's
the only thing, I think, that, that
when that play meets the, the kind of,
the discipline of the skill set that
you need to do anything, you know?
Like, that's a safety comfort part, right?
Like- 100% ⦠you gotta be
safe, and you gotta be balanced.
But, but- And then you can play
⦠Rupert Isaacson: but skills, so
interesting with love and fear.
So a new skill, let's
say I asked you to learn
German.
Maybe you speak German.
Yeah.
But you probably go, "Ugh," you know?
And then you ask me to learn- That
Sinead Maynard: is German, isn't it?
Ugh.
Rupert Isaacson: That- well, that's,
it's, it's, it's North Central
German from the Harz Mountains-
and it means, "Milk, no sugar, please."
The, the, anything that's new and
unfamiliar, of course, presses the
amygdala in the brain of a mammal,
and a reptile, actually and we feel
unsafe, and therefore we resist, and
therefore we're in a state of fear.
And what you described there with
skillsets and patterns, of course,
is nothing more than familiarity.
And as soon as we have enough experiences
with something that's unfamiliar, then
it becomes familiar, and we have a
series of good experiences with this,
and then we begin to get some dopamine
and effectively some pleasure in- Mm-hmm
⦠the execution of these things 'cause they
kind of feel good, whether it's Tai Chi
or yoga or Cavaletti or a, an in-hand
pattern or whatever or, or jumping.
Sinead Maynard: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: Then pleasure,
and then of course it goes to play.
Then the skillsets- Mm ⦠and the
play can meet and ex- stasis can occur
because we no longer have to think
about, "Well, what am I doing with
my inside leg and my outside rein?"
Yeah.
Or the horse doesn't have to think,
"What am I doing with my front legs?"
Or it, it, it, it comes
together, and theyâ¦
That I can totally see, and I can
totally see how that can absolutely
occur in the competitive re- with a
certain personality of horse and rider.
Mm-hmm.
There was another word, though, that
was used, and this is the one that
of course is the big red flag for
everybody, and it is the one that I
think we all have to address 'cause
we're all part of it, and it's industry.
It's the word industry.
Sinead Maynard: Mm.
Rupert Isaacson: It's, you
said, "In the horse industry."
Yeah.
And, and- I was like, "Why
Sinead Maynard: did I say that?"
Rupert Isaacson: Well, because- I,
yeah ⦠well, frankly, but there is one.
Yeah, sure.
And, and we are part of it.
Sinead Maynard: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: So what
industry do we wanna bequeath?
We're now under a lot of public scrutiny.
Mm.
Everybody wants to stop us from riding.
They want to stop us from
owning animals at all.
I think the service animals might be safe.
Sinead Maynard: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: But certainly the
idea of sitting on a horse with a bit
in the mouth and all of that, we're
under pressure like never before.
Sinead Maynard: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: And many people
philosophically say, "Well, there
should not be a horse industry."
Sinead Maynard: Mm-hmm.
" Rupert Isaacson: There shouldn't
be an- a chicken industry.
There shouldn'tâ¦"
You know, blah, blah, blah.
So I don't expect you to come
up with the answer to that,
but what are your thoughts?
Sinead Maynard: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Just free flow a
Sinead Maynard: little bit.
Ooh, I have aâ¦
Yeah, free flow.
I like it.
I mean, it's like- Like, run out
Rupert Isaacson: of
Sinead Maynard: the room.
Rupert Isaacson: I don't
want to answer that question.
Bye.
Sinead Maynard: See you later.
Gotta go.
I think, I think it's super interesting,
and I think that's a, a challenging
a place, and I think we're all
thinking about it all the time.
I think we're, we'reâ¦
In eventing right now, it's a little
bit interesting, is that- Is that
it's still, there's no money in it.
So, so it keeps it
Rupert Isaacson: kind
Sinead Maynard: of- Despite
Rupert Isaacson: the fact that
it costs a lot of money to do.
Sinead Maynard: Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I might say it's, it's the horse hobby.
B- so, you know, like for us,
we, we- That's true ⦠m- make
our living teaching, you know-
Yeah ⦠teaching clinics.
And, and for me, c- competition
has given me my, my education, my
vocabulary- Mm-hmm ⦠my ability toâ¦
Like, I think one of the things I wanna
give back is there's a whole lot of
people that compete and ride horses
that really probably shouldn't be, or
need to be a lot better, or need to
have a different idea or an intention,
or permission to behave a different
way, and that you can do it well.
Ooh.
You know what I'm saying?
Like,
Rupert Isaacson: you get- Explore
that train of thought, please.
Sinead Maynard: Well,
Rupert Isaacson: there-
Permission to do it, yeah
⦠Sinead Maynard: th- there is a lot of
old school training and techniques,
and, and especially there's a lot of
female riders that think they need
to be braver, tougher, stronger.
You know, it's, it's not unusual to have
a very, like there's a lot of male, and
I don't mean to be like male/female, but
there's a lot of male trainers, and a
lot of females that are riding under them
that they think they need to just get
it done, tough it out, do the thing, and
it's like there's, that is scientifically
proven, like that does not work.
Like, it does not work emotionally
for, for the riders or for the horses.
There's, like, you can have pr-
like instead of approach and
retreat, retreat and approach.
You know, like these, all these sorts
of different ways to learn, and when
you tell someone, "This is the way
to do it," the relief that I see- Mm
over and over and over again, when
there's always a step backwards.
Like, whoa, whoa, whoa,
whoa, let's back up.
The, when I tell somebody, "Look, like, I
personally would not compete your horse.
Like, if you asked me tomorrow to get on
that horse and ride it at the level that
you're going," which is like maybe novice,
maybe beginner novice, "I wouldn't do it.
Like, it doesn't check
the pre-check flight list.
I wouldn't do it.
I'd be in the round pen.
I'd be in a repulter."
Like, and the relief,
like, "Oh," like, "Oh."
You know?
And-
Rupert Isaacson: Does that bring
relief or, or does it sometimes
also bring, "How dare you?"
Sinead Maynard: I've rarely
gotten a, "How dare you?"
Mm.
And I would say that at
this point, Tick and I have
clinicked enough that people- Mm
know what they're getting into.
Well,
Rupert Isaacson: respect your judgment.
Yeah.
Sinead Maynard: Yeah.
When, whenâ¦
And the industry, the industry-
Yeah ⦠knows there's a problem.
Mm-hmm.
And so people are now, for the first
time, actually in the last few years,
way more interested about what Tick
or myself have to say, or people
that are kind of coming at it from a
different way, because you can't now.
Like, the sticks are gonna go away.
Like, you're not- Mm ⦠gonna be
able to use a whip in competition.
You already can't in a lot of ways.
You can't use it in a disciplinary action,
which is fine, which is great, you know?
And so it's like, "Hey, you can't
do that anymore, so would you like
to know that there's another way,
and actually it might work better?"
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
Sinead Maynard: Let's, let's try.
Rupert Isaacson: Talk- talk toâ¦
Yeah, you said retreat and approach.
Sinead Maynard: Mm.
Yeah.
Def-
Rupert Isaacson: define, please.
Sinead Maynard: So, so, like if,
again, it's a, it's one of those
things where you kind of, people,
like, they totally miss the moment
where the horse goes, "I'm concerned."
And they barge through it until the horse
either has to run away, bolt, stop, do
something bigger to catch your attention.
And so we're always talking about, like,
see if you can find the moment that
the horse goes, "Ugh," and then back
them up Back 'em up and be the person
that said, "Yeah, I think you're right.
Let's take a second."
And then you find that curiosity,
like you found when you had
the crazy time with the horses.
You throw a bunch of stuff in there,
and they're like, "We're good."
Throw something else out, and
then all of a sudden they're like,
"I think we can take a step."
You're like, "You sure?"
They take a step.
Mm.
They take another step.
They take another step.
You get that moment, "Oh, I,
yeah, I think you're right.
I think we should back up."
All of a sudden you ha- have this
horse that not only is building
their own confidence, they start
to build confidence in you.
Mm-hmm.
That you hear them, that you
see them, that you get it.
And like, w- when we teach our horses
with this, with banks, with ditches,
with water, like that moment, and
this would be the change, that
moment we start them, you feel them
going, "I think I should jump this."
Turn them around.
Turn them around.
Walk 'em back away until, until they're
go, "No, like, like I wanna jump this.
I wanna go."
You know, no leg, no
hand, like that's fine.
You know?
Like, let them stop.
Let them think.
And it's not, you wanna find the
step 100 feet away from the bank,
100 feet away from the ditch, 100â¦
You know, like that's where I think, you
know, people like it or, or, or not, like
that's where I think clicker training is
so interesting and fun because it teaches
people to reward the right thing, right?
Mm-hmm.
It teaches people to, to see
and to look and to watch, right?
And as opposed to it's normally when
the horse is finally doing the big
gesture, there's been 15 gestures
before it, you just missed it.
You know?
Like- Mm.
So I think those types of-
Mm ⦠training and the way that you
can direct people and hone people's
eyes into seeing things and reading the
horses, like it's, it's just so fun.
Like, it's just- Mm ⦠it's just so fun.
It takes longer, but does it?
Rupert Isaacson: Well, but does it?
Yeah.
Sinead Maynard: Yeah.
Like, does it?
Because it catches up.
Like, you can get away with it
often- Absolutely ⦠for a little
while, and then there comes a point
where it just doesn't work anymore.
Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely.
Sinead Maynard: And I guess that would
be like where, where I would imagine,
like if you were to look at myself or
to look at Tick and our careers and at
this point now, they'd say, "Well, you
don't have a horse at the top level."
And I'm like, "No, because the last five
we've called it way early and the horses
are very happy doing something else."
Yeah.
We didn't end up getting to the two-star
level and falling, or three-star level
and them stopping or blah, blah, blah.
Like, it's just, there was just w-
they weren't gonna do it anyway.
Like, or maybe we'd get there
and it'd be super un-fun.
Rupert Isaacson: As you may know,
if you've been following my work,
we are also horsey folk here.
And we have been training horses for
many, many years in the manner of
the old classical dressage masters.
This is something which is
often very confusing for people.
We shine a light on that murky, difficult
stuff and make it crystal clear.
If you'd like to learn to train your
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equine, go to our website, heliosharmony.
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of the old masters.
What's, what's interesting there is
this element of play and pleasure
for the horse keeps coming into your
conversation, and I love this idea.
You know, I was, I was looking at
a, a video of Lucinda Green, who I
know a bit and is one of my heroes.
And she was teaching someone with a horse
that had a stopping issue, and she was
doing exactly what you describe, saying-
Sinead Maynard: Mm
Rupert Isaacson: "Back 'em up.
Let 'em look.
Back 'em away.
Let 'em look.
Only when they give you a signal
that they want to go forward."
Mm-hmm.
And this was completely
outside of how you and I were-
Sinead Maynard: Mm-hmm
⦠Rupert Isaacson: brought up
with cross country jumping with.
But that said, out hunting- In
England because the jumps are so big.
I mean, you've probably hunted- Mm-hmm
around Middleburg and Virginia.
Mm-hmm.
But the jumps are about 3'3".
Mm-hmm.
And they're mostly coops that
you can see the other side of.
Mm-hmm.
You know, those massive hedges
that we grew up in and you can't
see the other side, and sometimes-
Yep ⦠you have to go, and
sometimes there's a nasty surprise.
Mm-hmm.
And you have to rely on the horse getting
you out of trouble to some degree.
Sinead Maynard: Sure.
Rupert Isaacson: But so you can't do
it on a horse that doesn't love it.
But you'd never start horses by
throwing them at that sort of stuff.
Sinead Maynard: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: And by the time
they were ready for it, you'd always
have the backup of uncle and auntie
horses to give them the confidence.
Absolutely.
Because everybody knew that at that level
outside of comp- Like, way more people
get hurt out hunting than in competition
because there's just so many variables.
You know, just stuff you can't control.
Mm-hmm.
And so it's interesting how the
types of technique that you described
were actually sort of allowed-
Sinead Maynard: Mm-hmm ⦠in
Rupert Isaacson: the hunt field, but were
not allowed in the competition field.
Sinead Maynard: Sure.
Rupert Isaacson: You know,
Sinead Maynard: People are so literal.
They're so direct line.
That's like the problem,
is that you end up, youâ¦
I had this, the, this lady here for a
while, and, and she was so, she was,
she's a, she owns a, a lot of horses
in, in a few different things for
a few different people, and she's,
she's one of those people that's,
like, highly frustrated all the time.
Mm.
And I realized that the reason she
was is that she's just, she has
horses, but she's not a horse person.
She thinks like people instead
of like a horse, and that's
incredibly frustrating at times.
And so, like, if you-
Rupert Isaacson: Monkeys and ponies,
Sinead Maynard: yeah.
Yeah, and it's like that c-
that age-old thing, like you
have to show them who's boss.
You ha- Wow ⦠if you let them stop
once, they'll stop all the time, you know?
Yeah.
And you're like, "That's crazy.
That's bananas."
And- But it's not bananas-
⦠it's not, and it's not
Rupert Isaacson: true ⦠if you've been
told that enough times, because- Totally
⦠that's how belief systems get created.
Totally.
Right?
Yeah.
Sinead Maynard: Well, and especially, I
mean, I remember growing up, and again,
the, the man who will not be named that I,
I rode for, you know, I mean, I remember
being at competitions and him saying,
"If you don't come home clear and inside
the time, you don't have a ride home."
Like- Yeah ⦠the end.
You, you know, that's it.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, I had
people saying that sort of thing
to me, too, and it's- Ugh ⦠yeah.
Sinead Maynard: And now I look back,
and it's so funny because I was
riding horses that he wouldn't get on.
Yeah.
So he was just using me to do that.
Yeah.
And at the time, I thought,
"Man, he really trusts me.
I'm a really good rider."
He's like, "You're an idiot."
Rupert Isaacson: Well, there probably
was an element of that as well.
It was probably- Yeah ⦠ambiguous.
It was probably both.
Yeah.
You know?
But-
Sinead Maynard: Yeah, yeah
⦠Rupert Isaacson: it could've
been done so much better.
Sinead Maynard: Sure.
Sure.
Rupert Isaacson: You, you've
talked, y- you use we, and you've
referred many times in this
conversation to Tick, your husband.
Sinead Maynard: Mm.
Rupert Isaacson: And I think let's
talk about him a, a bit and yourâ¦
I'd love to get him on the show,
by the way, s- ask him to drop out.
Yeah.
But I'd like to know, can you just
sort of talk a little bit about his
work, and then talk a little bit about
how you synthesize your work together?
Because I think- Mm ⦠this is
something that's rather unusual, Mm
and I think quite educational for people.
Just-
Sinead Maynard: Sure
⦠Rupert Isaacson: yeah, Tick, and
then Tick, Tick's work and then
your and Tick's work together.
Sinead Maynard: Yeah, so, Tick
got really into kind of like the
natural horsemanship side of things.
He's, it's, he, his dad,
His dad was a show jumper.
His dad still rides, he's
an incredible rider at 83.
And his mom, And is Canadian,
Rupert Isaacson: correct?
Sinead Maynard: Is Canadian, yeah.
They're from Vancouver.
And his mom is a dressage judge,
so and they, he's one of three
brothers, and so all the brothers,
they had to get their A in pony club.
Like, that was, like, mandatory.
The other two brothers don't ride, but it
needed to be that everybody was educated
enough to have the conversations, right?
So Tick did some show jumping, and then
ended up eventing a little bit, and he was
also doing modern pentathlon at the time.
So he actually went to the Pan American
Games for, as a pentathlete for Canada.
So he was only doing courses kind of on
the side for fun, and then he was in,
I think, in Mexico trying to qualify
for the Olympics in 2008, and he had a
rotational fall and broke his collarbone,
and so missed out on the Olympics.
And then he kind of went on this ⦠He
was devastated, obviously, and he decided
to kind of go on this soul-searching thing
and worked for all these different people.
So he went to Love, Texas, and worked
for a cowboy out there, and he went and
worked for David and Karen O'Connor.
He went and worked for Ian Kozinski.
He tried to work for Ian Miller, but
they found out he was journaling and
chronicling hi- and so he lasted a
day, and then they said, "If you're
writing, you can't work here."
And and anyway, so he ended up
with, at, down at David and Karen.
That's where we met, actually.
He was there for a few months and saw
that they started all of their horses
in the round pen and in a rope halter,
and he was really fascinated by it.
And long story short, he kind of ended
up taking that to a bit of an art form.
Like, that's what he loves doing.
And he always up for a challenge.
You know, like, he ended up, what,
doing the, the Roads to the Horse
in 2024 and 2025, the colt starting
championships, and, and won that.
But he was just doing it as a
challenge and for fun, and but he
came in with that attitude, and
so it actually went quite well.
And yeah, so he, he really has kind of
over the last, I don't know, 10 to 12
years honed in on the behavioral skills.
He's a real researcher.
I mean, he's like you.
Like, he loves reading and studying and
learning everything there is to learn,
and then he goes and he plays in the
round pen, and then he comes back and
he writes about it or reads about it.
And, you know, he's written two books
and but it's not like, we're different
in the senses that I would ⦠I love
the barn management, I love training.
I would ride eight to 10 horses a day.
You know, like, I wanna go do all these
things, and he's like, "I wanna sit by
the round pen with my cup of coffee.
I wanna work with a horse, and
then I wanna write about it."
And then, you know, and so it's
been ⦠And, and then he's, he really
has taken then a few horses that
have been quite challenging, i.e.
like not going for other professionals
or gotten to a certain level and
have stopped going, and takenâ¦
He has no, like Tick is one of
those, he's very interesting.
He has very, very, very little ego.
And he- and that can be bridged with
he's quite confident in a very quiet way.
So he doesn't care if it takes six
months or a year to take a horse
and do whatever he needs to do.
He'll go out.
Like, the mare that he's riding now
that's going at the three-star level,
I mean, for six months he didn't,
he just rode her out on the trails.
Like, it was not, you know, he
never even set foot in the ring
'cause it's not what she needed.
And so he's really developed a reputation
for doing a lot of that type of work.
And he still pairs it
with the competition.
You know, he, but he has
one competition horse.
He does a lot of teaching and clinicing.
He's an annoyingly good jump jockey.
Like, so that helps as well.
His foundation of just tech-
like, of balance is annoying.
So he's, he's a very empathetic and ver-
like, horses really like him because he's
very naturally balanced, and you can see
a good stride to a fence, and he's also,
Yeah, he really, he really pays attention
to the psychology of how horses think and
how they learn, and, and mo- and animals
in general is really his, his go-to.
So it's really fun.
Like, the conversations we
have are actually really fun.
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
But, and then, and then so people can come
and obviously keep their horses with you
and train with you, and then that meansâ¦
No?
Or-
Sinead Maynard: We, we really have
stopped taking horses in tr- we have,
like, three horses in training at the
Rupert Isaacson: moment.
Oh, okay, 'cause I, I just got on your
website and it said that you people could.
I know.
Okay.
It's a
Sinead Maynard: lie.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
So right.
Well, honestly-
Sinead Maynard: Don't read everything.
Don't believe everything
on the World Wide Web.
Rupert Isaacson: Ho- honestly,
I am of the same mind.
We used to do that.
We used to take quite a
lot of horses in- Mm-hmm
for training, and so on.
It's really good experience to do.
It- Mm-hmm ⦠it
massively hones your ride.
And we'll, like you, we'll take the
odd one if it comes- Mm-hmm ⦠the
right, yeah, I don't know, shows up-
Yeah ⦠in some sort of way that, yeah.
But it's a lot of pressure.
And because you, you, you are taking
people's money, and you sort of do
have to deliver to a certain degree.
Mm-hmm ⦠even if it's upfront
clear that it should take the time it
takes, and da, da, da, and da, da, da.
There's also- Mm-hmm ⦠reasonable
expectation that people have
when they're paying for a
service, and all those things.
So it's, I'm- I'm not surprised that you
sort of moved away from that a little bit.
But nonetheless- Yeah
people can, I guess the point I
was trying to make, is people can
come and benefit from the sort of
Sinead-Tick combi- combo thing.
Mm-hmm.
If I was coming to you, and I
think of, I'm just imagining a
listener or, or someone watching
this on YouTube, going, "All right.
Oh, I'd quite like to
give that a go," you know?
"She seems nice.
He sounds cool."
What would I experience, do you think?
Sinead Maynard: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Just, yeah.
Sinead Maynard: So I think l- a
lot of the ways right now, and w-
and it's interesting that you say,
'cause we're kind of always in this
industry evolving and reshaping
how we're, how we're doing things.
But basically right now we're
teaching a lot of clinics.
Like, Tick is teaching a lot of clinics.
Like, he's traveling- Mm ⦠a ton.
I teach more here on the property,
so people can ship in for lessons.
People, Tick does the same thing, they
can ship in for lessons here with Tick.
And you k- and to be honest, Tick and
I are not weird about, like some people
ride with Tick for three months, and
then he'll be like, "I actually think now
your skill set is gonna help this person
in the direction that they wanna go."
Yeah.
Or I'll, and we've had horses that
have come in for me to ride and
compete, and I'm like, "I don't,
I can't ride the left side of this
horse, so like, why don't you do this?"
And, Yeah ⦠and so we really
interchange back and forth that way.
And so, so basically it just depends on
what the need, what the need is really.
Mm-hmm ⦠whether it's just getting a
horse started in, in the round pen, or
developing your skills there, or if it's
a competitive track, something like that.
So the teaching at home is that,
the clinics, and then you know,
the other elements of things that
we, we really do is you know, we
try and get the information out.
Tick does a lot with Noelle
Floyd and masterclasses there.
Mm-hmm.
I'm doing a lot of commentary now,
which is just kind of fun and a
good way to get information out
when people are watching sport.
And I try- Mm ⦠and deliver, I
try and put m- kind of the, the- the
horse first lens on how I'm discussing
what I'm seeing in the commentary
at, at the high performance level of
sport so that that message gets out.
Who do you do that for?
C- so, a couple of different companies.
So basically I do Kentucky, so,
that is on USEF Network basically.
Mm-hmm.
And then we work with a large
production team that's there.
I do the US Open which I think
is gonna be on Clip My Horse.
Don't quote me on that one.
Mm-hmm.
And I did Maryland Five
Star when that was up.
So most of the time it's Horse & Country
or Clip My Horse or USEF Network.
And I do that work, which is really fun.
I love that.
Rupert Isaacson: Well, that is
an interesting point, 'cause
yeah, then you're in the
journalism field at that point.
Mm-hmm.
And then, yeah, you've got a platform.
Mm-hmm.
What, how do you then get your
ideas of joy and play and-
pleasure for the horse, and perhaps using
natural horsemanship as well to enhance
what the monkeys and the ponies are doing.
When you're wearing that, "Okay, this
person is coming into this fence,"
and- Right ⦠or, "How did that go?"
You know, after the round-
Yeah ⦠or whatever.
Sinead Maynard: Sure.
Rupert Isaacson: The, the
standard commentary stuff.
Mm-hmm.
Talk to me a little bit about
how you, how you weave that in.
Sinead Maynard: Well most of the
time I'm, I'm watching the horse, I'm
watching the horse's expression, I'm
watching the horse's j- shape change,
I'm watching their ears, and I'm
trying to point out, like, this, this
animal's is such an athletic beast.
Like, watch how it changes its balance
from a flat-out wingspan, and then it
rocks back into this incredible balance.
It eyesâ¦
You know, you can see its
expression lock on the fence.
The rider locks on the fence.
It's laser focus.
It's smooth.
It pats the ground.
It jumps.
It lands.
It's galloping away
looking for the next thing.
Like, anything that can get the viewer to
start studying the horse, the expression,
how they're using their body, how
they're using their feet, the different
mechanics that they start to do, the
balances of the horse, of the rider.
'Cause each rider, how they're
built, their center of balance
is gonna be slightly different.
Mm-hmm.
And I think one of the things that is
paramount in a horse or a rider feeling
safe is balance, and independent balance.
If that horse thinks that you're gonna
lose their balance, they are in a fear
state, and the rider, if you feel like
your balance depends on that horse,
you're gonna be in a fear state.
And if you guys can be
independently balanced, and then
together, like, you're working.
You can, you can work
together or independently.
You can get out of the other one's way.
That's your fox hunting, right?
Like, you drop- Mm-hmm ⦠you get
to the end of the reins, you get back
there, you're like, "Horse, you got it.
I'm out of your way."
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Sinead Maynard: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: That's
me over every jump.
Sinead Maynard: Yeah.
Yeah.
I'm like, "And here with a cab.
Good for you.
Good luck."
Yeah ⦠it's, you know, like,
pointing out all of those sorts of
things are, are really fascinating.
Like, talking to people about, you
know, how the course designer laid
the jumps where they jumped, how
the w- course designer thought that
the horse was gonna read this fresh.
Like Pierre Le Gruel who designed Paris,
and he designed the Maryland Five Star,
told me a story about how he used to
gallop along the dunes and the beaches in
France, and he used to go up to the top
of these dunes, and there'd be this brush,
and the horses would just, like, gallop
up and just loft over the brush, and
they just jumped it so beautifully, and
he just remembered that as a child, and
then he built this complex at Fair Hill.
And we walked it, and we thought,
"What in God's name did he build?
This is insane.
The horses aren't gonna read it."
And he was dead on.
Like, the, he's like, "No, the horses
are gonna gallop up to the top of that
hill, and they're gonna brush over
the top of this thing, and it's just
like how they did it out, you know,
when I was growing up and a kid."
And so- That part to me
is really, really fun.
I spend a lot of time researching.
I know a lot about the backgrounds of the
riders, m- more than, like, their stats.
Like, there's companies that do stats,
but I know, like, this person's a concert
pianist, this person went to this school,
this person has two kids at home and they
didn't go this level until they were 45.
You know, like, this personâ¦
And so it's bringing the story
because I think when you can get the
horses, you can get some education,
you can get some inspiration, and you
get the human interest side behind
it, it's just- Mm ⦠captivating.
It's just, it's just incredible.
You know, like, a- and when
you get to that level of
sport, there's always a story.
Like, there's always a story.
And, and I love that, and I love, I love
watching really excellent instinctual
riding, and I love watching these
animals that have been prepared so
beautifully, and then they just get
to show up and play this game that is,
like- Mm ⦠fucking phenomenal to watch.
Mm-hmm.
See, I'm obviously, like, a bit
of a junkie, but yeah, I love it.
And it, it is hard.
Like, there's parts of it
that are hard when you see
something that's not going well.
You know, I have to do a lot of research
on the you know, what goes into place as
far as if there's dangerous riding that's
happening, how they're getting pulled up,
where the vets are, where the TD is, what
the next steps are so that if people on
the screen are kind of seeing something,
I say, "Okay, like, now here's the chain
of effects that's gonna happen right
now, is that we've got the TD in the box.
There's 16 screens.
They're watching this horse.
There's aâ¦
At minute nine, there's a downhill pull.
The horse is gonna catch its breath.
If it does not, that
horse will be pulled up."
And, and, and you'll see it.
The horse will be pulled up or
the rider will put their hand up.
You're seeing that a lot more these days,
whereas before it was like, "Ride them to
the end, close your eyes, get it done."
And now you'llâ¦
it's, it's in a wonderfully
respected thing when a rider willâ¦
We, we saw it just at the
past World Championships.
It was the second to last jump, and a,
a I think an Italian rider, the horse
jumped the jump, took one funny step.
Heâ¦
I mean, the finish flags were right there.
One more jump, he would've
been done for his team.
He jumped off that horse so fast,
like, it was incredible, and said,
you know, "Something's not right."
And watching that, you know, like,
I don't know, I think it's just the,
the game is, is just evolving and, and
changing, and I think there has been
a, a big push because of the spotlight
that's on it, and I think that has made
everybody have to get better at it.
I think- If it wants to stick
around, it has to get better.
Rupert Isaacson: You,
you're a selector now.
Mm-hmm ⦠between you and me, if
somebody made that call on an Olympic
ride- Mm-hmm ⦠for Team America-
Sinead Maynard: Sure
⦠Rupert Isaacson: would that na-
would that damage their career?
Sinead Maynard: No.
Rupert Isaacson: But it would have
done five, six, seven years ago.
Sinead Maynard: Maybe.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Sinead Maynard: Yeah.
I think now it's w- we are very
aware, and I would say, like, we're
watching, like this is, this is like
I sound like I'm talking to my kids.
I'm always watching you.
Like, I know what you're doing.
But we watch all of it.
Poor you.
Like, we- So boring.
Yeah.
Like, like, I know when somebody
puts up something on social media and
it's not in the right vein, you know?
Mm.
And, and we talk about it.
I'm like that, like, that's not wh- that
is, that comes into the selection process.
Like, this, we, we need this role
model, we don't need that one.
Right.
We need this person that's putting the
welfare of the horse first, not that one.
You know, like, it is a, it's
a, there's only five of us.
It's a savvy group of five, like, with,
with the, with the right the right
intention for what we're trying to do.
Rupert Isaacson: Interesting.
Sinead Maynard: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: I'd like
to get them on the show.
Sinead Maynard: Yeah.
They
Rupert Isaacson: probably
wouldn't come on, but,
Sinead Maynard: Just one or two won't.
Rupert Isaacson: A few will.
Well, the, I, I think I'd like to explore
this more, because I, I think that what,
you know, there's been some fracturing.
Th- th- there always has been fracturing,
obviously, in the horse world.
But there's been some more
fracturing, competition bad, you
know, riding for the art good.
Yeah.
Which means competition has to get
better, which means it probably does.
Mm-hmm.
Which means that then we then have to
then look at the other sides of things
and, you know, within n- not everything
in natural horsemanship is good.
Not everything, you know, I mean-
Sinead Maynard: Yeah, yeah
⦠Rupert Isaacson: w- we can all- I've
Sinead Maynard: seen some
pretty crazy Hap- Happy Hackers
⦠Rupert Isaacson: indeed, indeed.
Probably myself included.
The, s- I mean, hopefully we're all
part of trying to make it better.
Sure ⦠but, and I think that's very
clear with, with what you're doing.
Th- there is one thing, though, I think
that I would like to talk about, I
know we've been talking for a while.
Mm.
But just this final thing, we t-
talked a lot about horse welfare.
Mm.
And one of the things I think that-
Is, is that the absolute fundamental
thing of that which is almost
disappearing, but not in the event
world, unless you think differently.
But I see it disappearing everywhere
else, and this is fitness.
Sinead Maynard: Mm.
Rupert Isaacson: So when you were
growing up, when I was growing up the
standard where I grew up was, 'cause
the horses were hunting horses, and
they had to go from a slow start in the
season in September through to a very
hard action end of the season in March.
Sinead Maynard: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: And then at the end
of March they'd get thrown in a field,
allowed to, shoes off, just allowed
to be horses for several months.
Sinead Maynard: Sure.
Rupert Isaacson: If, if they had a,
a, a, a, a summer competition career,
they'd still have at least six weeks off.
Mm-hmm.
But the ideal was 8 to 10 to 12.
And then you bri- start bringing them
up in Ju- late June, July, and you do
this very slow walking on the roads
to get the tendons used to just being
on a hard surface, but slowly, slowly.
And then over 12 weeks it would gradually,
gradually, gradually get to a point where
you could go out and canter for, you know,
half an hour or whatever with a- Mm-hmm
⦠with a walk in the tro- And then you
had a horse that's whose, not just whose
cardiovascular, but whose tendons and
ligaments would stand up to the work, and
these horses went into their late 20s-
Sinead Maynard: Yeah
Rupert Isaacson: doing it.
Yeah.
And when, you know, then I went to
Virginia of course, which was the same
culture, so everyone was doing that.
And then I went to Texas, and I jumped
for a bit on the B circuit of the
hunter jumper thing, you know, with a
horse that sort of fell into my lap a
bit, who was very, very good in, when
I didn't mess him up by overthinking
it.
And I would go into these barns, and
I would see horses standing in stalls.
And say, "Oh, what's the
story with that one?"
And they'd say, "Oh, he
pulled a suspensory."
And I'd go, "Ooh."
I didn't wanna sound not knowledgeable.
I had no idea what a suspensory was.
Mm.
So I was like- Mm-hmm ⦠"Ooh,
oh, a suspens-" I run home and
look up, what's a suspensory?
It's a, it's a ligament.
Oh, okay.
Sinead Maynard: Mm.
Rupert Isaacson: How could they pull it?
And then I- Mm-hmm ⦠started watching,
and, and, and then be offering it
to stand in solitary confinement-
Sinead Maynard: Right
⦠Rupert Isaacson: in a stable.
I'm like, "Can't be right.
Can't be right."
Sinead Maynard: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: Like, y- that
doesn't work, you know, when you're
a person, when you've bust your leg.
Okay, there's some time on the sofa,
but you're up and you're moving it
around as, as quickly as you can.
Mm-hmm.
It's just doesn't sound right.
But how do they do it in the first place?
And then I started going to these
shows and I said, "Oh, I see.
The judge wants to see a fat horse.
They don't wanna see a fit horse-" Mm
for whatever reason.
They wanna see it round.
Mm-hmm.
And the people are worried
that if they have a fit horse,
it will be too much horse.
So what they do- Mm ⦠is they
just don't have a fit horse,
but then when they get to the
competition, the horse is explosive.
So they- Mm ⦠lunge the shit out
of it for 45 minutes, and then until
it's tired, and they get on its
back, and then they do five classes.
Yeah.
And it pulls a ligament, and then it
stand- Yeah ⦠and then its reward
is to stand in solitary confinement.
Sinead Maynard: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: But I was like-
Sinead Maynard: Yeah
⦠" Rupert Isaacson: Dude, that's nuts.
How can you even af-" Yeah.
Take a- take aside the,
the animal welfare.
Say, how do you afford that?
You know, you got a horse that's out ofâ¦
Well, okay, these people
had a lot of money.
All right.
But I was like, "But if you, if you just
did the b- the basic fitness stuff, just
trail ride your horses, this won't happen.
Just happy hacking."
Sinead Maynard: Mm-hmm.
" Rupert Isaacson: No, no.
We don't hack.
We don't ride.
We don't trail ride."
Why not?
That's what everyone did growing up.
That's what everyone does.
No, apparently not.
And then of course, more and more
through my career, I've realized
that no, no, people don't.
Or-
Sinead Maynard: Mm-hmm
⦠Rupert Isaacson: they divide off into
those who do and those who don't.
Obviously in eventing you
can't get away with that.
Right ⦠you know, horses
would just break down.
But you are seeing a wider
horse industry, industry.
There we go.
And I particularly am an advocate for
this in the therapeutic world because
any organism gotta be fit to be happy.
Fit organism's a happy organism.
Non-fit organism- Mm-hmm ⦠not happy
We are making some headway with this.
What are your thoughts on this?
'Cause it's the sort of
basic foundation of wellbeing
Sinead Maynard: Yeah.
I mean, I mean, I agree with
everything that you're saying.
I mean, I, again, like we don't, we don't
run into that problem as much in eventing
because the horses, like fitness is such
a, a basis for, for what we're doing.
I mean, I think one of the things that
we found was a struggle, and again,
it's something that is changing, is
like when everybody got these, you
know, $150,000 GGT footing arenas, and
then that's all they would ride on.
Right.
And then they'd go and go cross-country
or they're galloping on all-weather
tracks, perfect footing, and then
they're going out and they're
the horses are breaking or doing
suspensories or you know, whatever
out because they're not riding in a
different, different terrain, getting
used to a different terrain all the time.
So like for us, we do a
little bit of everything.
We do a little bit of road hacking.
Like our arena is dirt, like our d- Mm-hmm
our sand, but we did spend a lot of money
on irrigation so we can, we ⦠Well,
I mean, a lot of money, like $8,000,
not $150,000 so we can water it.
Our horses go to the aqua tread.
We have an all-weather gallop that
we can use locally, as well as
we go and gallop at another place
that has nice gentle terrain.
So like the all-weather gallop, I think
it takes not even two minutes to get
up to the top of it, but we'll build
the horses up before that with our,
you know, 15-minute trot and then three
fours and then three fives- Mm-hmm
and then three sixes.
And depending on the horse and what they
need as far as their fitness, if their
gallop is really easy and light, you
might have to do some interval training
within those sprints, hills, things like
that to make them work a little bit more.
We don't do as long of trot sets as
we used to do when we had long format,
but I would say that I'm really glad
that the long format is gone because
a lot more horses actually broke on
the way to long format because you
were doing so much fitness work.
Mm-hmm.
That, you know, I think confirmation is
another really important thing that people
don't always pay attention to in making
sure that the horse is shod very well,
making sure that their, their confirmation
suits the job that they're doing.
You know, as far as- Mm ⦠as if you're
putting a high level of fitness work on
a horse that has a crooked leg, you're
gonna end up in some trouble, right?
Yeah.
So you might have to find an alternative
way to keep that horse fit, whether that's
swimming them or aqua treading them,
or hacking is w- obviously wonderful.
You can't do too much of that,
especially if you've got hills.
We're in Florida, so that's why
we have to use the, the treadmill
'cause everything's flat.
So we've gotten really creative.
We have a heart rate monitor that we
have the horses wear all the time.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Sinead Maynard: Well, at least three
of the horses, and then that goes
to a, a guy that's leading a study
who's incredible that will give us
feedback on how, how we're doing.
We have some great vet clinics, so
that we're always, you know, tracking
Like we had one horse that should be
fit, and she's not getting ⦠You know,
she's still not recovering as well, so
we send her in and she does a BAL, and
she has asthma, so she gets nebulized.
We have a hay steamer.
Our hay gets steamed all the time.
You know, like we're very fortunate
that we have resources for
all of these different things.
You know, I do think that you said,
I think honestly, sometimes it's
way harder to get a fat horse thin
than it is to put weight on a horse.
You know?
Like that's what I find.
Yeah.
Is I see a lot of like you said,
overweight horses out there doing
things, and you're like, "You gotta,
you gotta do something about that."
But it wouldn't- It wouldn't be ⦠And I
think it's interesting, too, how sometimes
if you can compare it to how, like you
said, like with humans, it all of a sudden
there's a light bulb that goes off, that
you're like, "Oh, yeah, that's not howâ¦"
You know, 'cause you'll have people
that are like gym rats, right?
Like, they're li- they,
they're living at the gym.
They're working out all the time,
fitness buffs, but they don't
treat the horse the same way.
You know?
Mm.
Like, they don't under- you know,
it's an athlete in the same way.
Even if it's doing low-level work,
it still feels like they need to be
fit and moving around, especially
if you're at a place where you
can't have a lot of turnout.
I mean, we're so lucky here.
Our horses are out from 3:00
till 7:00 in the morning.
You know, like, a- and if ones need to
live out, they live out all the time.
So, yeah, I mean, I'm totally with
you on the fitness side of things,
and like you said, it's, it's just too
expensive when they start getting hurt.
I mean-
Rupert Isaacson: Mm
Sinead Maynard: I don't know
how people are paying for that.
I don't
Rupert Isaacson: know.
No, it's, it's, it's, it's something which
we have to address in the therapy world-
Sinead Maynard: Yeah
⦠Rupert Isaacson: because this
idea of, "Well, the horse is
quiet, and that's enough."
It's like, yeah, but- Yeah ⦠and
we don't want a fit horse
'cause he'd be too bubbly.
It's like, mm, no, not
necessarily, actually.
Sinead Maynard: Right.
Right.
Rupert Isaacson: In fact, he
might be less bubbly because he's-
Sinead Maynard: Yeah
⦠Rupert Isaacson: endorphins in his body.
And if he's that bubbly- Yeah ⦠why have
you got him in the therapy world anyway?
Yeah.
You know?
Sinead Maynard: Well, that's, that's
where it goes back to the right match.
Yeah.
You know?
Yeah.
Like, that's where it goes back to
the right match, and getting creative.
Like, we've had ones here, you
know, like, yeah, putting them
in a circle isn't great for them.
Like, we had one that was rehabbing-
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah
⦠Sinead Maynard: and he hated being in
a saddle, hated it, so you know, he, we
just long lined up and down the driveway.
Exactly.
'Cause he walked in a straight line.
He was perfect on the- Exactly
on the long line.
It was awesome.
Rupert Isaacson: I'm so
with you on that one.
I've got a horse that was donated
to me with broken tendons,
but he's such a nice horse.
Sinead Maynard: Mm.
And
Rupert Isaacson: I thought, "Well,
I can never lunge this horse."
Yeah.
And lungeing is the sort of
foundation of what we justâ¦
Okay, long line it.
Yeah.
We'll just long line him
and s- exactly as you say.
We'll long line him- Totally ⦠in
straight lines, and most
of the time he's sound-ish.
Sinead Maynard: Mm.
Rupert Isaacson: But yeah, it's, it'sâ¦
And but you know, not everyone knows
those alternatives because-
Sinead Maynard: Yeah, yeah
⦠Rupert Isaacson: d- y- you know,
if I was addicted to the round pen,
okay, well maybe that's not the
right place for him because circles-
Mm ⦠in the sand, maybe not so good.
But-
Sinead Maynard: Yeah
⦠Rupert Isaacson: if I'm
coming from one sort of dogma-
Sinead Maynard: Mm-hmm
⦠Rupert Isaacson: then it, yeah.
Y- but you're clinicking, so d- are you
helping people to find these kinds of-
Sinead Maynard: Oh, sure.
Sure.
And we do a lot of like, like I don't
know if you can tell, but w- m- for
me personally, I don't mind talking.
And so at a lot of these clinics we'll
do a morning talk or a lunch talk,
and, and I love that style, like the
symposium style where you've got- Yeah
you know, the discussions
are so healthy and fun.
So yes, we have a lot of
those with the clinics.
Rupert Isaacson: The word
symposium's always very funny,
particularly when it's used, 'cause
the horse people use it a lot.
"Oh, we're having a symposium."
Sinead Maynard: Symposium.
Rupert Isaacson: Do you know
what symposium- What, what?
⦠actually means?
Sinead Maynard: Of course not.
Rupert Isaacson: It means a piss up.
So- ⦠it means a wine drinking
evening, specifically- Well, that's
Sinead Maynard: what we do
at our symposiums Right.
I don't know what you're ⦠Nothing
like a good glass of wine at breakfast.
Rupert Isaacson: You know?
Sinead Maynard: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: My fr- my b- my
best friend Tom, when he was he'll
kill me for this story his three boys
brought him breakfast in bed when they
were very young, him and his wife.
And with the toast and the jam and the
marmalade were- Yeah ⦠and the tea,
were two brimming glasses of red wine.
Said, "We know how much you
love it, Mommy and Daddy."
Sinead Maynard: You're like, "Oh, no."
Rupert Isaacson: Oh, maybe time
Sinead Maynard: to- Things are gonnaâ¦
Yeah, that's, yeah, that's when
you make some adjustments and you
put your wine in your coffee mug.
Rupert Isaacson: That's right.
Sinead Maynard: I mean,
don't stop drinking the wine.
No, it's just- You just
gotta hide it better.
Rupert Isaacson: Someone's gotta
support the industry, yeah, industry.
Sinead Maynard: Yeah.
Exactly.
Rupert Isaacson: Well, look, this
has been really, really wonderful.
We have approached the two-hour mark.
Mm.
And you probably are desperate to
s- kick me out and get on with your
day, have more important things.
Sinead Maynard: I'm gonna, I'm gonna
go help teach tick a jump lesson.
That's what's next on my radar.
Ooh, well that's- Little, little
husband and, and wife training session.
Rupert Isaacson: Ooh.
Sinead Maynard: It's gonna be exciting.
Ooh.
I might bring some wine.
Rupert Isaacson: Yes for him.
Sinead Maynard: Yeah.
It's gonna be a symposium.
Rupert Isaacson: Indeed, indeed, indeed.
Yeah.
A, a, a mid-morning one.
There were four things which came
up in this conversation, which with
your permission, it would be very
nice to return and do some specific
conversations just on these topics.
Mm.
Sort of 20 minutes each or so.
Sinead Maynard: Sure.
Rupert Isaacson: As follow-ups.
One is, can it feel like play?
Sinead Maynard: Mm.
Rupert Isaacson: The
other one is skillsets.
Sinead Maynard: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: And what
does that really mean?
The other one was retreat and approach.
Love that, and I think would
like to get into that a lot more.
And then the fourth one was around your
commentaries of watching horses and
watching how horses show up when they
are sort of in their, "Okay, now let's
really actually do something," phase- Mm
rather than just observing them in the
field or in the round pen or whatever.
Mm.
I think there's a lot that I personally
anyway could learn from those things.
Would you be up for-
Sinead Maynard: Oh, hell yeah ⦠a
couple of return matches?
That'd
Rupert Isaacson: be fun.
Yeah.
Sinead Maynard: Let's do it.
Rupert Isaacson: All right.
Sinead Maynard: Mm.
Rupert Isaacson: Then we will.
So thank
Sinead Maynard: you.
This
Rupert Isaacson: has been- Thank you.
Sinead Maynard: This has been super fun
⦠Rupert Isaacson: brilliant.
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