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E6: We have now emerged from Covid-19 to a climate of war. We still have losses and are yet to see recovery. Will there also be a war on DEI in South Africa?
Today, we spoke with diversity, equity and inclusion speaker and facilitator Roy Gluckman-John about what conversations we need to urgently have to bring much-needed change and build a community with a better sense of belonging.
Reflecting on the past few years, we speak of a shared view that there is so much to be said about grief and loss. Not just a loss of community but also the grief of not being heard leaving many voiceless.
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Creators & Guests
Host
Bandile Mndebele
Bandile Mndebele is a passionate advocate for intersectional inclusion, committed to creating equitable and inclusive environments. Their journey began at Stellenbosch University, where they pioneered a gender-neutral initiative, making it the first top South African university to recognize the gender-neutral marker, Mx. Following their academic pursuits, Bandile has held influential roles in various organisations, including serving on the Global Council for DEI and as a PRIDE Network Chair at a major S&P 500 company, where they co-founded Ubuntu South Africa. They have been instrumental in driving initiatives that promote diversity, equity, and inclusion, particularly for marginalised groups such as LGBTQ+ individuals and neurodivergent people. They have also been recognized for their leadership and impact, receiving awards such as the Top 100 Outstanding LGBT+ Future Leader and Top 100 Outstanding Executive Role Model. Through their podcast, newsletter, and speaking engagements, Bandile shares insights and inspires others to create a more just and equitable world. Their work highlights the importance of intersectional inclusion.
Guest
Roy Gluckman-John
Meet Roy Gluckman, International Diversity, Equity, Inclusion and Belonging (DEIB) Speaker and Consultant. "I create spaces where your people will feel safe enough to have tough conversations and leave with the language and confidence to continue having them". With perspectives, insights and solutions to complex problems, Roy is a top DEI speaker and unconscious bias speaker for your event, conference or organisation.
What is The Add IDEAS Podcast?
Certain things in life are hard but belonging should not be.
Through inspiring stories, expert insights, and actionable tips, we help unlock meaningful ideas for a stronger sense of belonging in every aspect of your life.
From war to groove, there is a conversation worth having and lessons learnt about how we show up authentically as ourselves. Sometimes, we only want to afford a good groove towards a thriving community both individually and collectively.
Join me, Bandile Mndebele, as we explore the world of IDEAS: Inclusion, Diversity, Equity, Accessibility, and Sustainability.
Our lived experiences matter and so should our ideas.
Thank you for following and listening to the show.
Today I'm joined by Roy Gluckman who is a trailblazing DEI speaker or inclusion expert
having performed quite a multitude of impactful work over the years, spending quite multiple
years.
We're honoured today to have a conversation about what more conversations we need to have
as the industry matures into growing numbers of support globally and also locally.
Thank you so much Roy for joining us and welcome to that idea podcast.
Good, good to be here, thanks for having me.
And how has the journey been since?
I mean I started when it was just called diversity training.
That's what it was, it was diversity training was like over a decade ago and it was like
that's, it was just talks you know.
I mean I think if I think of the first men and women who went into organisations to talk
about differences particularly in South Africa like those were real trailblazers like let's
talk about race even in transition, even before transition.
So even when I entered like there was still some awareness but like diversity training
and diversity became inclusion and inclusion became equity and our equity is becoming belonging
and you know it's kind of just built into, I mean now we're talking about things like
psychological safety and justice which is quite a big shift from where we started just
like thinking about how differences you know now is like very psychological.
Yeah I mean almost a decade ago it was a quite a new I would say phenomenon.
We had a Trump era where the Nile or Fruits was happened and we've had a lot of recurrence
of justice will fall out in different jurisdictions.
Yeah, you can't, you can't look at so many landscapes globally how do you make sense of those shifts?
I think it's been quite interesting just to look at the category as a whole so you're
right like let's talk about like 10 years ago was really let's even call it eight years
ago the DEI heyday it was like this new thing that had grown in importance and it was really
like this swell on this wave and like everyone wanted it.
They didn't really know what it was like there was no dealing with DEI leads within organizations
you know it was kind of like everyone was figuring it out even we as providers were
kind of figuring it out we knew kind of what we were doing and where it fits to kind of
get to this point now where DEI is now mainstream and what I've noticed which is I guess cool
and very irritating at the same time is that because DEI is now mainstream there is a there
has been a de-prioritization of it right now we have ESG and sustainability you know those
are the new kids on the block that's the kind of swell that's building and then DEI it's
like most things kind of gets pushed inside oh yeah we'll do it yeah but like it's not
a priority for us this year you know it gets put into that cycle of priority so as a provider
that sucks and I guess it's a little bit worrying in a sense but good in that we there's still
a place we just now need to I think the work on providers the way I see it is really doing
the work of linking DEI to performance which I don't think in the heyday of DEI we had
to do right because it was like it was the right thing to do social justice make everyone
feel good you know and that was enough to get us in the door because it was like buzzwordly
and it's cool now that we've been kind of mainstreamed we actually have to be showing
performance in business results yeah so the war on DEI in the global north which is now
like beginning I think it's as a result of us not doing that we're showing business results
right performance results and it's no failure of the category I just think that that is
I mean I always think about how complex changes in organizations and I think DEI providers
particularly in the global north over promised you know like this is what it's going to do
and actually changes incredibly complex and then we didn't see those results and we didn't
feel good because we talked about hard stuff we could say oh this is actually bad for us
I am thinking a lot about like you know because global south we always a little bit further
behind in terms of like the cultural uptake of the global north will the war on DEI come
to South Africa I would imagine so is it going to be the same probably not but I'm
interested to see what it's going to be who's going to drive the attack on DEI in South
Africa I can't think it's going to be white people I'm like who's it going to be because
it's going to come right so I don't yet know what it's going to look like here I'm sure
it will get here or maybe like our constitution will be something that beats it out we're
just like sorry like this is important this is who we are you know from the first line
of the constitution is we the people recognize the injustices of our past so DEI is about
so I don't know I'm interested to see what it looks like but as a provider for me now
it's like okay how do I convince you and show you and measure that what we do within your
organization has like real performance and operational impact that's critical and you
talk about not the legal landscape you come from a legal landscape yourself how does that
marry and tie into what you are doing now is they like a disconnect almost looking at
your journey like professionally always there still a marriage in a way but I think I see
my legal training purely as the genesis of the starting point you know so I mean in terms
of my story because you know white guy doing diversity and inclusion work what is that
about and it's good to kind of be skeptical a lot of people are like oh that's cool or
that's really like inclusive and some people are like no is he part of the gold rush of
DEI which is like you know this money to be made they're all valid all important to kind
of look at and to address but my entry point into DEI work was through studying law right
it was like realizing that rather having the space to run to my internal monsters right
my own beliefs of prejudice my own beliefs of superiority my own bias my own beliefs
that being a white man means there's no opportunity for me in South Africa in the world my own
anxieties around that own fear around that so constitutional law which was part of that
law program was really just an opportunity for me to look at and the answer is overwhelmingly
no and that kind of space that was created in that class where they weren't telling you
how to be they're just like here's some interesting things to think about what do you think that's
kind of been a model for me to recreate so if anything it's not so much that I'm grounded
in the illegal understanding of this work that is there I'm trying to recreate the power
of like social justice education and what it can do from a liberation perspective right
because yes oppression is you know victimhood is confining but like privileges has not the
same but is also I kind of think of privilege as like a young boy under his duvet on his
bed right that's what it's like you frighten with the things around you so it's total
bubble and it's a frightened bubble right you so yes it's a better bubble to be in for
sure but like there's still a sense of a trap like you trapped it's claustrophobic it's
frightening everything outside is scary so for me it's like thinking about the power
of social justice education to liberate and talk about those internal conversations you've
become a speaker as well and one of the thought leading speakers on this on this subject matter
not communicate about the train for example and advocating that you know in person training
is almost unscathable anyway and you've created now run to the monster yeah what are some
of the conversation or self talks that you are inspired by from the actual you know for
your own genesis that you want to tell other people who are probably trapped as a say in
their own bubbles I think for me what run to the monster what I'm kind of focusing on
right and I'm going to use a controversial or a political metaphor of a vaccine so not
a COVID vaccine just how vaccines work right so there's like two incredibly important components
of a vaccine the first one is is this vaccine this molecule this substance that we are putting
in the body does it work and we put a lot of research and effort into this and great
minds and scientists and definitely like we looking at that microscope and we're getting
the perfect components to do what it needs to do right we get that but the other aspect
of a successful vaccine equally as important that this as this very very powerful well
researched molecule is how do we get it into the body like you can have the best molecule
ever but like if you're not getting it into my body it's not going to work and I think
as providers is the and I providers rightly so we have focused on the molecule the learning
how do we create change how do we create an emotion how do we tell a story how do we get
people to reflect how do we spend a lot of time there and we've taken our eye off like
wait how are we actually going to get this into the organization like effectively and
I don't think we've done it effectively so part of what I think the warranty I the global
north is talking about was like those training spaces were harmful and if you look at those
spaces particularly from an in-person perspective we love them they were cool there were opportunities
fast to connect four hours eight hours day and a half two day off sites right that's
what we do and we tell our stories and it'd be great and like we'd feel things and we
would learn but like you scratch it a little bit deeper those spaces were actually quite
terrifying I think for white people for men for straight people for able-bodied people
enter those spaces convinced that they were going to be told that they were baddies or
guilty coming in that they were going to be called out worried to say the wrong thing
worried to be perceived in a certain way and then of course you have people of color women
queer people people with disabilities like I'm going to have to share my pain and my trauma
and how I don't fit in and once if I'm like every time I've done you know like this baggage
there as well so I as lovely as those spaces were and they were we loved we loved hearing
people stories that is important am I convinced those are the best spaces to learn I don't
know so when I thinking about like DEI work and what I want to take like thinking about
that social justice learning where I'm focused on at the moment is cool the molecule is there
right but how are we getting this into the organizational body how are we creating spaces
where learning is prioritized rather than the content is prioritized right so learning
being different from the content because yeah I just don't think that I mean we're never
going to get a perfect combination absolutely not and also I just don't think we're going
to be getting huge organizational in-person training role outs I think it's dead in which
case what we do we start you know we need to innovate around how it is we're getting this
in and technology allows us interest the ways to do that what would you say are the most
urgent conversation that we need to have like from this year on I mean you're in a year
of change and it's not that case and it's a unique year of change yeah what would you
say are the pivotal connections that we have to help talk about I think the intersectionality
is increasingly becoming very interesting in the South African conversation let's take
International Women's Day which happened on the 8th of March now right yeah I'll talk
about a session that happened last year at one of the big banks we were in a panel and
I was hosting this panel and it was actually a panel with some of the male leaders right
and that was by design we were like where does the work needs happen these separate men
great cool and what kind of came out in that panel of these men and I'm facilitating this
process and we've heard this before is let's say for black women talking about International
Women's Day cannot be separated of course from blackness yet for the experience of some
black men or men of color within organizations it's kind of like can we just sort the race
thing out and then we can get to the gender thing right it's kind of like we're coming
now let's get this sorted out and of course, that's a privileged position right
and that's how it always operates like let's just deal with our stuff first and then we'll
get to yours and I think the conversation of intersectionality is becoming just increasingly
more important that like we can't just look at the race thing we can't just look at this
gender thing like we have to understand that these things are interconnected so your experience
it says amount of color is valid in terms of your oppression within the space and your
internalized oppression but like so too is your privilege and how do we hold that complexity
so I think the South African conversation is evolving to bring in some of those nuances
like holding both privilege and oppression at the same time wow that's a real thing that's
a comfortable right yeah that is let's talk about that yeah and you and talk about that
and you feel like the interstate of conversation particularly with people holds multiple layered
both both and you know would you say that there's more insecurity about talking to privilege
side where it's much enjoyable to always want to be the victim you know because you get
the intertention okay this is struggle it's gonna be better prioritized because the victim
is you know we want to risk the victim anyway sure what would you say or would you describe
the transitional conversation towards intersectionality to me well I mean if you think of if you think
of privilege as power yeah like power exists by remaining invisible right so privilege
doesn't really want to be visible because then we have to address it so it's not so
much that people want to talk about their their oppression to be victims it's more like that
way I feel my pain and it's more recognizable and also I want to talk about my privilege
because like it must remain invisible so you know it's like so kind of in a roundabout
way I think that of course it's way more difficult to talk about our privilege within those spaces
but I think even more so it's difficult to talk about the intersection of my privilege
and my oppression yeah it's like that thing is confusing it is complex however like I
think the conversations I'm seeing black people in South Africa have black and colored people
in South Africa have a bit more comfort with it because particularly from a socioeconomic
status like there are young black professionals saying to use their words I'm black but I'm
not like black black you know there's like a this distinction from a socioeconomic status
where someone can say I'm a black woman but I went to formalities and private schooling
so they can hold that complexity but some identities don't know how to do it all so
there's a class narrative in a way yeah yeah totally like they can see even so there's
a comfort there but for some identity it's like just holding both is too much yeah and
maybe I'm like I'm just kind of in some ways intersectionality I don't know some people
see it as like diluting the conversation right so if we can spread our gaze across multiple
issues it can split our focus we're not fighting one issue right so like if we're looking at
all the intersections we kind of like send the troops everywhere rather than all of us
focusing the troops on race you know I mean is that true I don't know necessarily maybe
it's all kind of done done together but yeah I mean I think there's sometimes an anxiety
around even just talking about how you know if we're taking our eye off the fact that
there is race racial issues and to talk about gender like do we dilute I don't know it's
complex I mean any going to ESG I mean you're in a touch on the necessity being the start
child now you know so when you look at the is part of ESG I think there's a room for
us to better stress out the DI narrative particularly intersectionality in that in that is how would
you say would be the opportunity of the big win right now for us to integrate that I mean
I don't know how people are even seeing that as separate I'm surprised that DI hasn't been
brought into that as already maybe the question that you're asking you must tell me at the
end of the day it kind of feels like where we're getting budget from within the organization
right sometimes it feels like a budget allocation like the work needs to be done call it HR call
it DI call it transformation call it s in ESG who cares that needs to be done right
and it's all kind of the same work but where we're getting budget from where we're getting
capacity to do this so it's quite difficult I think for me as a provider to separate out
the ambition and the aspiration and the starry eye this is what we're going to do versus
the reality of the South African space cuss cutting limited capacity big dreams so for
me it's like cool let's actually work to bring that's DI into the asset that's going to get
us by jib but I mean I also think that these things are euphemism so ESG is what is it
euphemism for isn't it kind of a sustainability I'm like I don't know you know the space is
also something which is evolving and my understanding needs to grow around ESG as well but yeah
I do think we need to bring it in because it is all part of it but you know organizations
are silent and even we as practitioners the eye practitioners don't like collaborate
much I think it's also almost like for man to mouth situation you know it's like okay
if you get that I mean what in sentiment they want other companies to hire to the eye
practitioner you know that kind of like that narrative that reality almost is I think it's
almost the same with inclusion how people view inclusion that for example if I have to bring
more people to the table someone has to do the table how would you describe that that
work fundamental fuck up that is capitalism like that is it right it's a design to make
us believe that there is not enough one of us right that there is a scarcity of anything
so I think that just yeah I mean the scarcity of resources within organizations of course
limits our ability to information share and to collaborate we don't necessarily want to so
if I have to bring someone to the table like the same old woman of color more people with
disabilities yeah people of color who doesn't mean now the board of comprised comprised of 10
yeah men or white men yeah doesn't mean like all 10 must go yeah this this kind of thing of
scarcity and like they're not being enough more and or rather and or if I have if you want I have
to give something up right I have to lose something I think there's a couple of things and it's
something that I have thought about a lot and think about a lot and kind of leaning into quite a lot
in terms of my practice into 2024 beyond is thinking about loss and grief I'm like very
obsessed with this idea of like transition loss and grace because that's about an ally ship
Evan's like how do we become ally like give me the five things to be a better ally cool like we
can do this right but we know that ally ship is actually a transformation experience right so
so for me in that law class I had a transformational experience that pulled me into this idea of ally
ship right this work as an ally so we can't recreate that within organizations because multiple
things need to happen so like when we're thinking about ally ship for me yes we can do the storytelling
really really important but then it like feels conceptual like I hear the story I understand
conceptually why it is that we need to try for racial justice cool I get it but like
experientially I don't necessarily have that one of the things one of the keys for me for us to be
thinking about to kind of get me a little bit over that line is to talk about grief
have I as a white person or as a man sat with the grief of losing something in the pursuit of
justice of equality have I sat with the grief the last fear that if I drive for gender equality
my boys may not have the same opportunity because if you're not creating a space like that in the
conversation I can be conceptually in it oh yeah of course we want that but like how I'm going to be
behaving consciously subconsciously is one from fear it's not going to be one that says there is
enough it's going to be like there isn't actually enough for everyone and by me driving this agenda
consciously unconsciously I am taking away from me and my future and as a result I am going to
frustrate that so I love the conversation around grief and loss and transition I think it's super
super important and touching to the transitional journey we are talking about social justice I
mean it's emerging quite topically given the social goals now that are rising how would we
describe the social transition towards social justice towards increased social justice you know
we have TVV right now inside of that being quite at a pandemic level what transitions do we need
to have to go towards the social justice landscape so I don't know I don't think that there is a
single way for us to do this I again like I guess maybe what's coming to me is always this idea of
scarcity that I think if we exist in spaces with scarce resources and let's maybe think of resources
more broadly not just access to housing healthcare food jobs but that is important like what is like
a psychological resource like what is wellness as a resource what is mental health as a resource
like so in a space where there's a scarcity of course we are going to protect and dominate
right I mean a colleague of mine and I were talking like what is this fundamental human need
of human beings to dominate it's a very particular need like where does that come from like did
capitalism evolve as a result of our need to dominate or does our need to dominate kind of
create systems like feudal systems like capitalism where we create social hierarchy of dominance
and oppression like what is like what is first I don't know is it in our human nature to kind of
drive Ubuntu I'm not a hundred percent sure I don't actually have an answer it's really really
difficult but I guess from a social justice perspective I mean yeah I think the obvious
answer like education awareness but I don't know there's no guarantee me in any of these items
no I mean I think there's a scarce there's a scarcity I think what scarcity creates is it
creates it just an intense anxiety and it just creates a soled individualistic understanding
of the world and rightly so it's survival and I think survival instinct is counter to a
communitarian instinct so I think in the world of scarcity how do we create opportunities I mean
peace beyond just no economic merits I don't know yeah I don't know I mean if you think of Maslow
I mean where is where is wellness and mental health it's quite high up I think in South Africa
where we haven't necessarily got some of those foundational needs people like I think wellness
is pretty low down on my priority list I think like a job you know so I think it's hard going for us
I think this is where of course our history catches up with us and that is there is just no way
that we could be thinking about self-actualization where we exist in a country that historically
has been denied the basics fundamentals to have a good life and of course that plays out in our
workplace of course that comes into our workplace absolutely how can it not I think it even corrupts
those who have who are higher up right it corrupts how does we like as a white man to see me as not
having opportunities in South Africa it's a corruption it's an error in view and yet it was so real
there's not enough for me well now we're looking into South Africa there's change happening you know
I'm going to elections after our biggest all eyes election yes 30 years of study every day
what are the some of the excited changes that you want to or hopeful of at least oh my god
yeah asking the wrong person I I mean up until like three weeks ago I decided not to vote we can
and like in my mind it was I mean this is quite a vulnerable share because I think like I understand
how a white man young white man saying this is perceived but like here we are like I think it
I was like no I'm not voting this this there was a protest and of course I know that not voting
is a pro is saying something is a vote in a sense and I told my friend this and she sat down and
she's like listen this approach this kind of not voting this kind of want to disconnect from something
want to disconnect from the pain and the struggle that is the South African society and like take
this from where it's come right this is like this very privileged white man saying yeah if it just
come confusing for me as well you know she's like it's it's like nihilistic it's like everything is
meaningless everything is lost I think for me when I think of where I'm at just in this work like
as somebody who's been doing this work with the view of impact and change and believing in the
impact and change and then being so confronted with the reality of the system day in and day out
of how complex changes physically emotionally psychologically financially experientially
temporally in terms of time it's so difficult that there's a kind of a jaded nature jaded thing
that kind of started happening with me I was like am I even in the business of change I'm
actually just doing this for the money right there was a kind of this like questioning like
what is the point when it's so difficult as like a little example doing this big project with this
organization interest we're doing this change but money we ready let's go everyone's in we are buying
midway through the project holding company in Germany sorry we closed down half the plant
and like all the change that we wanted to do and had done wipe downs gone because now we have lost
half the plant in those like I'm just now to culture change what do you mean and it was such a
stark reminder of how complex changes that there's multiple facets so I felt and become increasingly
jaded about this idea of change so when I think about run to the monster my current thing that
I'm thinking about like how I keep myself doing this work is I've disconnected from change in
that I say I am not in control of change I cannot control change at all but what I can control is
learning so how does it translate into my awareness as a South African I wish I'd like some big
insights but like I'm I'm struggling you know I'm struggling because I'm like who am I in this space
who do I want to be do I even want to be somebody within the space and I've been wanting to talk
about this a lot so it feels quite cathartic for me to say this but like I'm heartbroken I'm heartbroken
and and that heartbreak has brought about a huge amount of anger and that Angers wanted to disconnect
well fuck you like I'm not going to vote because actually no one represents me it's all a waste
of time anyway what's the point you know I'm just gonna fail a minus so that I'm okay which is exactly
the behavior and the kind of thinking of scarcity that I find so frustrating but I'm now living it
I'm like oh I see what my parents did what they were saying they're like forget about the you
and it's a it's a cut way to live it's not what we need and so at least kind of I've moved out of
that like nihilistic everything is meaningless I'm like out of that now thank you to my friend
and now I'm trying to figure out okay well who am I I'm heartbroken that I know and I'm just
gonna sit with that for a while I'm heartbroken and that that's it that's what I got is there like
is the heartbreak will be tied towards the lack of a savior in the political landscape or that
did the opportunity value change yeah sure I mean yeah that's totally you know the heartbreak is
it's not necessarily like yeah I mean like I I've just recently relocated down to Cape Town and I mean
Joberg is heartbreaking yeah because that's like I was you know I've lived a joke in my whole life
I remember being in my like mid-20s when Joburg was making its big comeback right in the city and
like you know there was this sane energy about Johannesburg and then of course things happen
of including the pandemic it's not only about politics but it does play a big role and Joburg
broke all of our hearts because it's just a different space now right so yeah there's a
political thing heartbroken at our our history I guess constantly heartbroken at the behaviors that
we're seeing heartbroken that most of my friends don't live here anymore that my family don't live
here anymore you know it's it's yeah so yes definitely the political there's a political
heartbreak but there's a yeah there's a there's a loss of promise I don't know I mean how are you
experiencing me saying this like as this white guy I think the the lack of voting is quite
frustrating in as much as the CEO of change is quite critical it's quite in the memoriam of 1994
decision sure I know the 1994 decision was quite a not a compelling one but a shifting one
a much needed one and I think we've had a lot of voter apathy a lot of voter absence
previous decision which is quite especially for my young people who also feel not represented as
you say who also feel the lack of you know if I vote I would what's the point nothing changes
the so theory is still the same you know I changed I voted last year and I think it's still the same
my life hasn't moved in and moved a needle yeah in any way yeah so I think it's a catch-and-read too I
mean it's a tough way to navigate because one year we are thinking about the suffrage that has been
fought so hard yeah you know you're thinking sure you know my answer is what blood and tears
you and their lives were on the line of course for us to have an opportunity to vote but now
the times have evolved where by now the lesser people are not dying to vote we are dying not to
vote you know that's interesting and and you know and I'm thinking to myself what is tied to the
suffrage case I want to be responsible citizen globally connected yeah but what does my vote mean
yeah what does it represent you know if you look at the options that we now have you know we have
almost yeah a collection of lesser evils I would say you know it's either you vote for the devil
that you know or the devil that will promise it more yeah either when all of them are devils so
which one are going to choose you know it's not like okay cool as an intersectional body this party
speaks to intersectional policies yeah you know as an active responsible citizen or certain
enthusiasts that speak more directly to this as an economic justice person this makes directly to
that there's none because one of them a devil that we know less of totally so it's it's almost
a hard navigation to navigate and I think it's as much as it stands down to a personal level we
have to connect beyond the bigger picture often what does it mean yeah you know I mean when you
look at the decision 1994 yes the NC was almost a natural choice yes because that was a star hole yeah
but now we're in an era where by now 30 years into democracy we see what starhooks do and
we have to question critically like where do we fit in now into what do we represent for
the future next generation it's not long isolated to us you know it's more connected to a bigger
picture and I'm always thinking to myself yes I registered to vote fine but you know as much as
it's nice to have a public holiday and another public holiday yeah you know if there's no water
education at this like everything's in crisis everything's in tiddith yeah you know and you
ask yourself by not voting in that stage what does that imply you know yeah yeah I mean it's kind of
like yeah I mean it's funny because like my me wanting not to vote was felt like me screaming
out loud do you think it's the realization of actually you know that the rainbow nation that
we could be the fallacy yeah that's not it you know I think I I think given kind of this work
that I do I've like long understood that the rainbow nation was always a fallacy right so I
don't think I was ever connected to the the rainbow nation necessarily words right maybe my experience
of heartbreak a very personal experience of community I think I really struggle in living in
South Africa as a white man many times but like it's an internal struggle of like seeing inequality
you know seeing inequality the way we see inequality in South Africa is so traumatic I'm
I don't even talk about the person who's on the receiving end of that inequality like I'm on the
best side of the inequality kind of space and it is so painful like it creates it's such an injustice
for me so that's heartbreaking I guess it's hard to live with right of course it brings up shame and
maybe guilt I don't know but like ah there's a frustration could be one us to be better right
we want to live in a world that is wonderful for everybody and it's really it's been really really
difficult for me seeing from age nine and of course please just like take this from where it
comes this is a small thing in comparison but like seeing all of my best friends leave from age nine
I've just had my community every like five years my community just gets decimated decimated and
that's heartbreaking for me and I think and I think just to connect with that I think I also
like moving from Johannesburg to Cape Town for I think you have to like go more than
10 years now yeah and trying to build a concept of community you know in a new place where
you know how Cape Town is quite tricky it's mostly very easy is that like you know someone or you
have to move through someone that you know it's a very hard space to even connect and create a sense
of community and when you've had that support I mean now it's all about mental health as well you
know I needed a support structure moving into graduation into work life through professional
life and that support structure has slowly built by being chipping away yeah you know
either someone is moving abroad someone is relocating there's a really like there's a sense of loss
yeah almost like you are really investing in a school I'm now from 10 I'm down five
okay cool let's see what five can do yeah now you have to oh my gosh you know exactly that
shrinking yeah that drastic which happens without your control yeah and how have you now
in that resilience marrying it into into Wellbeing or Wellness? I mean it is about community right
I think what has this idea of not feeling secure in a space because of a dwindling community
has made me really look at this idea of happiness very very critically right
what does all the research say about happiness
not about job not about money not about big things not about materialistic it's like time
and community and health right so kind of like as I'm getting older I think I like have the wisdom
of all these big things that we were told as kids were very very important for our happiness and
now realizing I'm not really that important for our happiness so like moving to London and being
this big hot shot is no longer like I look at them like that's gross I definitely don't want
that that's not going to make me happy what is research what does make me happy community sure
that's leaving that is disappearing as I look at it and that scares me that makes me very anxious
right so from a health and wellness perspective when we know that community is so important
to kind of watch it move away is is terrifying is heartbreaking for me yeah and I think telling
you like the exit narrative if we were to be other parts of the world yeah would you look at that
and say this is a ticket for me to go and join a community yeah that's better aligned with
that was I'm poor my happiness you are my happiness aura sure would you take that or would you want
to embed a change here in the space that's how in tough question for you to answer
I grew up being told that South Africa was not my home right like that was my family narrative
let's play smart for you you need to get out yes it was part of like white man doing of opportunity
but my dad is an immigrant like my my dad's mom was and they never felt at home like they
belonged in South Africa and of course it's deeply racist of course right like this is not your home
you do not belong here and I have always felt the pain of not belonging in South Africa deeply
right I think part of even why I've invested in doing this work is to try find a sense of belonging
I've always said that for people who put the handle for D and I work is looking are looking for their
own healing and I believe that just ask people about kind of their pain and you will find out why
they're you know and I felt the deep sense of not belonging I always have you know do I feel like I
belong in Netherlands no of course what do I know about that place nothing so there is this like
limbo that I feel like I have always existed in so you ask me would would I go elsewhere if I found
a community I don't know last year would have said oh absolutely sign me up I'm ready to go
this year you know got a partner now love South Africa deeply connected to it always felt deeply
connected to it me never felt deeply connected to it or rather was forced not to have had to really
build that and I'm just asking myself about satisfaction right so again I actually when I
meant when I said happiness is actually about satisfaction because I I think that for me is
truly what that's the struggle of our time is not happiness is satisfaction like is this enough
and I'm trying to work as a practice on this is enough at least for right now
this is enough for right now I because I've literally grown up always saying somewhere
else I will be satisfied and that is lies that is not true I would not have been satisfied I will
not be satisfied if I leave because the dissatisfaction is not about place it's about an internal thing so
I am way more interested for me personally to find a deeper satisfaction with what I have
rather than think that my satisfaction is going to come from finding something that I don't
want because I know that that's a scam I know that that's a lie I will never find it so it's
complex right so South Africa becomes a place that is my home where I don't always feel like I belong
where I may never feel like I belong and yet belonging is so important to one's satisfaction
and sense of safety and well-being in community it's complex I don't know this life is complex
will you describe for example that disconnection and the complexity as an affirmation for you to
continue to doing the work that you're doing because I mean you know when you think about
sense of belonging and centering psychological safety that sense of belonging it almost ties
directly into that frustration I think maybe yes but I think what it has given me is I'm able to
feel what it feels like to not belong like I can come in and I can feel it it's important that we
create this right of course I'm looking for it and of course I know I'm gonna find it in my work
but I do think yes you're right me the drive to kind of create a sense of inclusion and belonging
is absolutely because I don't necessarily always feel that and so it's kind of like a superpower
but also like quite a sadness you know and a painful experience yeah I mean it's interesting
you know I go to organizations where black people queer people women don't feel like they belong
and then like I'm dealing with white men who do belong there but who maybe don't feel like they
belong in this country and it's like this weird like we trade a sense of belonging as we enter
and exit organizations maybe that's our white men hold on so hard it's like the only place they belong
I'm telling you there's a there's something about grief and heartbreak and loss that we need to be
talking about like how terrifying I would imagine to live your whole life in a country and feel like
and never even consider your belonging right or you're not belonging and then being told if you
now need to transform and has something taken away from you like this person needs to have a chat
you know does he have the language no of course he doesn't he doesn't know it's grief he doesn't
know it's heartbreak yeah and at the same time there's a silent culture as well because I mean
for in my history experience of DEI over the years most of the priority in terms of intersectionality
was always weaponized in a way very quickly weaponized on the narrative of the marginalized
and the previous conversation has only merged slightly in the past few years into the space
of okay now we have to take cognizance of both privilege and disadvantage would you say that
you know the the the the the fall out of Harvard's president game you know when one of the found one
of the investors or the backers of Harvard was detailing the narrative of you know I thought
DEI playing DEI like it's because of these DEI programs that she is able to you know do an
do an insurgency within Harvard and that's spilled over into that billion and $1 question like do we
still need DEI and you read through that list that you know a lot of the frustrations and that loss
and the grief has been tied and been married into that silencing culture yeah you know like
so frustrated because now you're told to transform yeah doubling up on that frustration would you
describe that frustration as to be a sense of reality or a sense of myth almost I think it's
a myth I think it's a myth so you say silencing culture I would call it voiceless and it is a
both a perceived and a real voiceless right so the way I kind of describe it like why people
menstruate people feel super voiceless because they know that if they say anything wrong they're
going to be seen as racist but also they know that they don't say anything even just a mission
and silence gets interpreted as and they probably not for this they probably like to do that if I
use the wrong tone right and asking a question that I'm really I'm gonna so the stakes are super
high for white people, men straight people, right super high stakes but like I think what is important
to understand this full picture is that for people of color for women for queer people in
organizations in particular there's an equal sense of voicelessness that if you say anything too
loudly with too much emotion too much passion you'll be seen as radical troublemaker and there's
a target on your back right too emotional for your woman throwing gay in our face you need to
manage your emotions and your tone very very well so there's this shared voicelessness that I think
we all exist within the space and part of what my work is or what I see my work is coming to a
space and recognizing the voicelessness and creating a space where we try and think about
what our voice could be within that space right that's start like great white stuff let's just
think about it this is like knowledge every author voiceless right yes yes yes cool how is that you
know so I think that there is a perceived silencing or voicelessness of white men oh my voice is not
you're silencing but the reality is that they have such a powerful voice and it's not the voice
in like oh I'm now standing up and speaking it's like the little thing that I say on the side that
shut the whole program down because one white guy got frustrated during our talk on anti-racism
that's voice when they say I don't think this is good for us okay cool we scratch it we fire her
that's voice so I think it's a perceived thing but again it's it's understanding privilege as
needing to play victim right is needing to be seen as under attack
that's how it can make sense of the world right oh now I am the victim right and that's a
gives almost as justification but it is perceived does that mean we mustn't create the space for
white people from infiltrate people to talk about their emotions and their anger and the
oh of course we absolutely must but we just need to be prioritized it this isn't like any other voice
that exists in the space yeah well but but I think you're throwing up this conversation I think you
talked about mostly articulating grief more and loss yeah temporal transitions towards different
spaces of justice and how the wellness looks like on the other side yeah what would you all say you
are hoping that this journey for yourself takes you towards I would love I would love to have a moment
where we can demonstrate that doing this work positively impacts our performance so not seeing
de eye as like a weird capitalist let's extract as much as we can but like actually when we do this
and we show up differently together when we provide a bit more humanity when we actually
thinking about who we give trust automatically to we actually start creating a bit more flow and ease
and comfort within a space and that actually is like I would absolutely love that I know that exists
but like I just need to measure it see it feel it for me and I want to communicate it right so
like that is definitely like where I'm laser focused at the moment I think where I'm hoping we go as
a category aware where I've been the whole time but really want to stop bringing it in now it's
like thinking about like the psychological elements of exclusion and inclusion and like
bringing it into our conversation right like these things like grief pain trauma fear loss joy
satisfaction wellness contents like this is what I this is kind of where I think we're going right
so I don't know how we square up performance and satisfaction because the fundamental nature of
performance is to always be dissatisfied so we can be pushing for more but like yeah I mean that's
kind of it for me right so I want us to see a deeper conversation around the psychology and I mean
just sorry to to kind of add a little bit more when we're closing up but like
if I think about how my parents and our parents respond to mental health it's like oh just don't
think about it so much right away right away like oh just don't think about your past like that's
and we have a lot of generation who are in leadership who still kind of bind to that right
like oh we don't think about mental health or just don't think about it or print away or just like
keep going you know keep going and I actually think when I think about inclusive leadership as a
skill set I think for me the defining and the most obvious inclusive leadership skill set
is an understanding of trauma and psychology that my how it is that I grew up is going to
fundamentally affect how I show up in this team and when you as a leader can hold space with them
understand that you will know how to get the best out of me because you will know when and why I'm
not performing or showing up the way you want me to and you'll be able to talk me through it
and we kind of create that outside of that it's just like our woman is leaning more black people
must put their hand up more and it's like oh you don't understand why that's not happening you think
it's by the list of that he's not leaning in that's how this works you know so I'm fascinated by that
I think we need a far more like psychologically let's call it psychological competence you know
I think that's what we need to be that's where I think we're going as a well-state how do we
build better communities as leaders or as people who want to build better communities a central
community for me it is 100% about creating spaces to talk about our pain I mean I'm pain-leaning
you know I know that on the opposite side of pain is joy and that these become in that these to come
in as well but like I'm first like let's start talking about our pain that's how I think we
create we create more wellness is by like saying we have a pain or I have a shared pain or and then
when we understand that we can actually start shifting up like if I know what triggers you
I can shift my behavior to avoid that like that is a shared wellness that you and I
just contract with honest really contracting it's like cool we're doing this together and you may
not even know that I'm shifting some behaviors but all of a sudden you feel more comfortable and
confident around me and like that is what we're doing so I think understanding pain and trauma
is essential to create like a shared sense of wellness but of course from the South African
perspective from the eye perspective in order for us to do that as privileged identities we need to
sit with the discomfort that we are perpetrators and that we benefit so talking about your pain
doesn't immediately make trigger me to make me feel like a bad person I can just sit with the
discomfort that yeah this didn't happen to you and people like me who did it and I need to you
know so it's this work I mean this comfort that we need to create around these conversations
to get to that point thank you so much very good come in and thank you so much for joining us on
today's talk conversation on ad ideas podcast and thank you for bringing the show and to more
conversations into more shared spaces yeah I mean I don't even know what we spoke about
I'm sorry I can back it load off my conversations and I love ideas like touching points on not just
sharing about vulnerability and a sense of losing out to gaining something or extract and gain
but also just learning a lot about the takeaways of what hope would hope to change looks like
how do we connect with change personally yeah I mean there's a picture of change
that we all want to buy in that yes we are collectiveness but then that personal narrative is
very different from the collective and I think that conversation today's conversation wasn't
it was quite an eye-opener into that lens, yeah so thank you so much for that
thank you thank you