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You've heard the book publishing podcasts that give you tips for selling a lot of books and the ones that only interview world-famous authors. Now it's time for a book publishing show that reveals what actually goes on behind the cover.
Hosted by New York Times bestselling author Anna David, Behind the Book Cover features interviews with traditionally published authors, independently published entrepreneurs who have used their books too seven figures to their bottom line to build their businesses and more.
Anna David has had books published by HarperCollins and Simon & Schuster and is the founder of Legacy Launch Pad, a boutique book publishing company trusted by high-income entrepreneurs to build seven-figure authority. In other words, she knows both sides—and is willing to share it all.
Come find out what traditional publishers don't want you to know.
Speaker 1 00:00
Bio, yeah, I know. What's fun, though, is I tell the 20 somethings, and they're impressed. I was like, Oh, that's fun, okay, but
Speaker 2 00:05
stop talking. Oh no, it's fine. We'll just start this way. Hey guys, don't ever stop talking. So, yeah, we were talking just now. Oh, Hi Heather, Hi Anna. I did the intro already. You were listening? No, I haven't, but in the Time Machine of podcasting, I will have done it, you know what I'm saying? So that's why we're just launching it. So yeah, we were talking about the heyday, yeah, back when you could just, like, be a writer very easily, and so with a particular focus on traditional publishing. So your book, sexy feminism, a Girl's Guide to love, success and style.
Speaker 1 00:47
Can we talk about that? Please, listening to that title that came out at a certain time, right? It did that had to come out at a very specific moment in feminist history when we were kind of figuring ourselves out, but we weren't there yet, right? A girl's guide, yeah. So just Admittedly, it needs an update, but I will say it was a moment.
Speaker 2 01:14
It was a moment, and that the title, it's really the subtitle, right? That we're talking the subtitle
Speaker 1 01:18
we're talking and nobody ever remembers this. Nobody. Does anybody remember I stand behind sexy feminism totally. And if we're and I don't mean to take your questions away, but that was the first battle in publishing, is trust your instincts about a title that was always the title that I wanted. Yeah, always, always, always. And they said no, probably five different times. And I don't know if they didn't like the word sexy, it was scary. It was too simple. I mean, cut to Roxanne, gay, right, right? Bad, feminist, which is actually the perfect title for a book snaps. And there were so many different iterations, and it was down to the wire, almost. The cover was already there. And I'm like, No, it has to be this. What did they have was the coverage. There were so many, the photo, the illustration, they were talking about it right? The art was approved. And I just hated all the different title iterations. And we finally, because I have a co author, gentrification, Armstrong, New York Times bestseller. Love her. She's been on your podcast. Oh, we love and I'm like, 10, we have to fight for this, because it's the only title that makes sense. And so, you know, pick your battles, but also fight for, yeah, what you what your instincts are, right, what you believe in.
Speaker 2 02:35
So that's so interesting. My previous guest and I were just talking about that exact same things, the speaking up at the right times. And you know, now I'm going to hijack which, you know, I'm in Gemini, whatever, with party girl. When my agent went out with it, we had it already, and she calls me, and she goes, there's another book called party girl out there. She goes, I didn't know, because it was tiny. How do you feel about changing the title for the, you know, whatever that's called, the auction. And that tiny little book called party girl was written by Rachel Hollis, who, you know, nobody knew who she was. Then, then, and then the book. And then everyone's like, they acquired it as party girl. They're like, who cares about that other book, and then I remember when I got reviews that really dismissed it as chick lit. So my agent at the time, her boyfriend at the time, who's now her husband, who is Andrew Ross Sorkin, who's, you know, the genius New York Times, you know, financial writer is now mega best selling author. He's the one who said, Why don't you call it the after party? Oh, I
03:46
know. And so I was like, not the same.
Speaker 2 03:49
It's not but I thought, well, it wouldn't have been dismissed as chick lit if it had had a different title. I ended up using after party for a website and, you know, all that stuff later, but, but the title, that's the thing. And one of the things about traditional publishing is that, really, you have no say in so many things. You have say you won that battle. But I mean, I've had titles I didn't like, I've had covers I didn't like, and it's so frustrating when you know you kind of know better than your publisher, because it's yours.
Speaker 1 04:21
Oh yeah. The author always knows better, and you have to, like I said, you pick your battles and then fight for the ones that you don't want to compromise on, because I hate that subtitle, right? And there were other things I didn't, didn't really love the cover up was fine, but it's like, yeah, we could have done better, but we're up against the deadline. Let's just go, yeah. And so you're right. You don't have a say in so many things you get. What you get, you're you're lucky to be publishing a book. Yeah, it's interesting, though. I say the word luck because I believe and you built a whole business upon this. Anyone can write a book. I really do believe that. But getting it done, you have to get it done, and you got to that finish. First line, yes, you're lucky you've gotten here. So you have to make some compromises to get it done, right. So at the end of the
Speaker 2 05:06
day, well, it's interesting, when you said, the author always knows better, because I, too have, because you're now a publisher. Yes, I will now challenge you on that and say that, that perhaps what I'm saying isn't a publisher who's been an author knows we end up fighting a lot of our clients on these things, and they are all, as you know, brilliant in their respective fields. However, perhaps not as brilliant when it comes to book publishing, sure and business side of it, sure. And so we are at an impasse, because one of the things I love that we do is we give this the client control. They have final say, but sometimes we can't save them from themselves. Yeah, that's fair, and so and so. And it's hard to know, because I think publishing a book brings up a lot of fear, and fear is not rational, and it comes with it can come as obsessing over the title or the cover or the thing that doesn't matter. Yeah, I forgive you for looking at your phone. I was like, maybe she's looking something
Speaker 1 06:12
up. No, I totally brought notes because you said Fear to talk about. I can't not prepare. I can't believe I told you not. You told me not to prepare. I'm just one of those people. I can't help it. But no, fear is a huge thing. We talk about traditional publishing, which is an interesting term, because that doesn't exist anymore. And what do we mean when we talk about that? And, yeah, writing a book in general, I guess, is scary. And when I was writing this book while also growing a baby. Very similar, the same year, yep, and it was scary, and I didn't know if I was going to be able to do both. I had my son in January, and then it came out in March. So like, yeah, that timeline was, was very similar. And then like, Oh, now we have to promote it
Speaker 2 07:00
looks like now you gotta raise it. Now we have to raise it.
Speaker 1 07:04
Yeah, so it's, you know, we talk a lot about fear and imposter syndrome, but you just, you just do it, right? You just one page at a time, one step at a time.
Speaker 2 07:15
You and Jennifer had a website for many years. Is that, am I making that up?
Speaker 1 07:21
No, and that's why we fought for sexy feminism, because that's ultimately what we called it, is that what your your site was called, it eventually became, right? So we started a, started as a website, turned into an online community. This was the era of feministing and Jezebel and, you know, online feminist media heyday, right? And it was a moment, right? Doesn't exist anymore. It was, we were excited to be a part of it, and it grew. It grew organically, but it was tiny. It was just the two of us and some contractors. Don't start a business with another creative right? Because we didn't have that extra part of but I love that you
08:03
guys have remained close.
Speaker 1 08:05
Oh, right, like, sisters, yeah, we're just working together. I know it's very rare, very, very rare. In fact, it's funny. She'll tell the story she started. Maybe I shouldn't. She's had other business experiences. I'll say, yeah. And then she realized, like, oh, you actually can't do this with most people and stay friends, right? It's actually really hard. So it was something we loved and were proud of, and we always held down day jobs right in publishing while doing that. And it just got to be too much something we loved, and we wanted to give it like a proper send off. And so that was when we're like, let's turn it into a book. You know, wrote the proposal, and were pleasantly shocked and delighted that, you know, we got an agent and sold it and turned it into what it became.
Speaker 2 08:49
So I believe it's how we met. I was trying to remember, I think you guys interviewed me. Is that possible?
Speaker 1 08:56
We did? I feel like, you know how New York media is. We knew. I mean, I was always, uh, Anna David Stan, yeah. I mean, I love that about you, yeah. I've always, always been an Anna David fan, and so we definitely met and, like, knew of each other. Where I
Speaker 2 09:13
lived in New York, even I thought, When did, when did you have the site?
Speaker 1 09:17
We had the site in the aughts,
Speaker 2 09:21
okay, and I'm wrong, yeah? No, no, I'm right. Sorry, I can't do time, yeah?
Speaker 1 09:25
But we put, we had parties. Remember, we had book, we did that was that came later, yeah, that came later. I know the timeline, and I have a picture of us.
09:33
I have that probably that same picture. We were very
09:36
cute. We were so cute, yeah? So
Speaker 2 09:39
somehow, after all of that. But before your book came out, I believe you.
Speaker 1 09:45
We definitely interviewed you for the site. You interviewed me
Speaker 2 09:47
for the site, and then you Sherry Goldhagen, yes, Jen and I had massages,
Speaker 1 09:56
yep, readings and rub downs, readings and rub downs, you guys can. We just take a moment to celebrate
Speaker 2 10:02
that we didn't even think that that was we, I don't think
Speaker 1 10:06
we were trying to be provocative, no, but how great is that? And rub down because we had a masseuse.
Speaker 2 10:10
We had a masseuse. We knew that we had to con you to get you to come to a reading.
Speaker 1 10:14
We brought many, like spa treatments to like book readings, yeah, and
Speaker 2 10:21
that were upstairs at, uh, at Birch coffee. Remember packed they were that. I don't remember
Speaker 1 10:27
people came out. I loved that, and it was so fun, and what a great title. And just a good time, yeah, just a good time, yeah.
Speaker 2 10:35
I don't remember how we came to do it, how long it lasted. I don't remember anything
Speaker 1 10:39
and how random and the four of us doing that, I know I love, I love that we did. We did,
Speaker 2 10:43
and so, so, so back to the book. So you guys make the website, or the mat, the online magazine, into a book proposal, and you send it out. Yep. And was this her first book? Had she already written? She No, she wrote The Mary Tyler Moore, no,
Speaker 1 11:00
her first book was on the Mickey Mouse Club, that's right, that's right. And she was actually doing that simultaneously with sexy feminism, but that came out first, and that was a rough year for Jen. She had a full time job at Entertainment Weekly, cranked out that Mickey Mouse Club book, and we were working on sexy feminism, but that's the kind of workhorse that she is, yeah, yeah. So that was but it was her foray into publishing as well. We were sort of getting into it at the same time, and so
Speaker 2 11:25
was it a good book deal? Did Publishers Weekly call it a good deal, or whatever their terminology is?
Speaker 1 11:32
No, it was a book deal. It was a book deal. Who was it with? It was with. It wasn't Simon and Schuster. It was, Oh, my God, I need to know one of the big five. It was one of the
Speaker 2 11:46
big five that, okay, that's good enough. That's good enough. We'll look it up later. Five. So hilarious.
Speaker 1 11:52
How hilarious. Yeah, because I was gonna bring up something else hilarious about how we still get emails of $0 royalties. Oh yeah. So fun?
12:00
I don't open those emails. They're way too depressing,
Speaker 1 12:03
isn't it? Yeah, like it's trolling. I did you ever
Speaker 2 12:07
get the letter it came in in the mail that said, we're destroying your books? That's the worst letter you can get. And I don't know if they do it anymore, but they basically, and I remember commiserating with a friend, you get a letter that says, like, it's gonna be landfill. Isn't that horrible? I guess they tell you to say, be like, Wait a minute. I know. I think they say you can buy it back, and you're like, but I'm a broke writer. How would I do that?
Speaker 1 12:30
But also, just for the planet, don't put it in a landfill,
Speaker 2 12:33
yeah, but I mean, I guess they think it's better there than than on shelves. That's how bad it is. That's sad. So okay, so you never got that letter, no,
Speaker 1 12:43
but we, we got so definitely had the $0 royalty checks. We, but we, it was published in Portuguese. It was published in Polish. Like this is random stuff, fun. Yeah, I love having these different language do you have? Oh, of course, that's the coolest thing. Well, it's funny because it happened to me. We're like, Really, okay, that's awesome.
Speaker 2 13:08
I was just talking to Dennis about how, you know, all the good things that happened in the beginning. I thought, well, of course, and it's going to keep happening. Party girl is my only book where I sold foreign rights. But you know, they're like, Okay, here it is an Italian. Here it is in Russian. And I'm like, Great, okay, what are the other ones? Not, not, how
Speaker 1 13:25
cool, right? Feminism just sticks you, like, it's just, it's, it's really cool. I can't translate. It would be fun to see how plug it into AI and see what the direct, right? Trans, I'm sure you'd be like, horrified, yeah. Like, Wait a minute.
Speaker 2 13:39
What? So, okay, so the book comes out, and what happened?
Speaker 1 13:45
The book comes out and and then you start to promote it. Our agent, bless her, who's brilliant and wonderful, sends us every single book on self marketing that exists. Yeah, a little care package, which was lovely. She did this, you know, when we turned it in. So there's, you know, plenty of time between turning it in and it actually coming out. And, you know, we were able to book. So unless you have a major deal, you can speak more to this than I can. And you know, the publisher has put a ton of money behind you for book tour, because there is an expectation of sales. It's a self funded ordeal. It's basically you're throwing yourself a party in the cities where you have friends and family, and that's okay, because it's fun and you deserve it, and
Speaker 2 14:39
let it be that. Did you know that? Or did you have to learn that? We did
Speaker 1 14:43
have to learn that. We thought, oh, because we both work in New York publishing. We both work for major magazines, and so we had tons of connections in New York, Los Angeles, Chicago, San Francisco. We're like, oh, yeah, let's do those. Cities, and got booked at big, you know, book soup here, Barnes and Noble in New York City. I forget the one in San Francisco. We went to this
Speaker 2 15:11
books and books maybe, or book passage Anyway, go on this really cool
Speaker 1 15:15
place in Davis, outside of Sacramento, like by the university, and where there's, like, a self, you know, this wine and beer on tap bar, like, Davis is a really cool University. Oh, really, yeah, that's amazing. But, like, university towns are great places to show up, because what else are they gonna do? Yeah, right. But also, it's the right it's the right demographic. And I have family in Sacramento and the area. So you go where your people are. And so we were like, Oh, we're gonna draw, yeah. And we did, but it was our people, yeah, right, yeah. And then, and then that's it, yeah. And then you're done. And then it sort of kind of falls flat. And then you're like, Oh, now what? Yeah. And then the now what is you leverage, what you have, which is, we're writers. So we write blogs about it, we try to be interviewed about it, we try to write articles and reference it, and that's it. You're your own PR machine. You do the best that you can. And we went on a couple of podcasts and were interviewed. And look, it's a topic where it was a little bit fraught at the time, right? A POV on on feminism during that time was debatable, right? And so we had some some tense conversations, which I don't think is necessarily a bad thing to draw. It drew attention, and it was good conversation and debate. And you do as much of that as you can. You say yes to everything, and then the invitations and opportunities
Speaker 2 16:47
stop. Were you able to get into Entertainment Weekly Cosmo, the places where you guys worked or they didn't even support
Speaker 1 16:54
No, because it wasn't that kind of book, yeah, yeah. It wasn't that kind of book to be in, like, an Entertainment Weekly, yeah, we did get some, yeah, it was more the sort of Feminist Press that we were part of, yeah, which is good, yeah, that's the audience. But it wasn't, yeah, we couldn't really leverage that entertainment media network, which was our day jobs, right? Which would have been great, because it has the reach,
Speaker 2 17:18
though, I don't know that it ever even sells books. So what? No, I
17:21
don't know either. What does sell books? What sells books? Anna, you
Speaker 2 17:27
I mean, and you know, because you work with my company, that our big philosophy is doesn't matter how many books you sell, yeah, make it. You know, the right people who buy it. I don't know how you're the one of the clients of mine that you've worked with came on this podcast and has made a killing with his book, not through book sales, yeah, through leveraging it, uh huh. And that's, that's, I think, what you do. But for me, the epiphany that the dream had come true, and the dream was a nightmare was devastating. Was it for you or were you just more realistic?
Speaker 1 18:07
It felt realistic. I didn't. I didn't expect that book necessarily to be this huge runaway success, although I had hoped for it to be a springboard for other things to grow additional products or media properties or extend into, you know, maybe a series, or, you know, because Jennifer and I have done all kinds of writing, TV writing, and, you know, we've worked on screenplays, or, you know, maybe We wanted to write a sequel or start a podcast, and those are all things that we toyed with. We're actually talking about a podcast on this topic now, which would be so much fun to do, but we kind of went our lives were going in very different directions. At the time, I had a brand new baby, and she then just gotten another book deal for The Mary Tyler Moore book, yeah,
Speaker 2 18:59
and then she really just became the person who writes the books on TV
Speaker 1 19:04
show. She basically invented a new genre. I'm gonna give her that credit, writing books on TV shows. Yeah, and so we it was, I had a very important focus in my life, and she did as well. And to your point, we've stayed the best of friends and but have reconnected on projects, and so it wasn't I didn't feel that devastated. Like my hopes and dreams had been dashed. Things that devastated me more are some of the books that didn't happen, like the proposals that you put your blood, sweat and tears into and then not quite right, you don't quite get there. Like, I put, like, six months into a Madonna book that I'm like, I am the person to write this book, and didn't get it, and somebody else wrote basically the same book, and you're like, right? You see that? And that happens. It happens. That happens all the time. Um. Yeah, especially in areas like entertainment and pop culture, somebody's gonna write the book,
Speaker 2 20:04
somebody's I mean, there have been many books on Madonna, but still not with your take. And was it the same agent that you had?
Speaker 1 20:12
No Oh yeah, yeah. We always kept the same agent. But yeah, things like that where you're just like, oh, this is definitely going to be my next thing, this is perfectly up my alley. And you know, like teaching, when you prepare, which I've done, you prepare for a class, you don't get paid for that work, right, right? Like pitching an article, you don't get paid for that work. Writing a book proposal, which is a huge, huge undertaking, yeah, especially something that you have to research. You don't get paid for that, right, right? So that when you're overextended, which every writer is, that can be devastating, right? I don't know any author who just does that, even the successful ones
Speaker 2 20:55
today, who just does books, right,
Speaker 1 20:59
who's not only who's not doing something else at the same even Jennifer, oh yes.
Speaker 2 21:06
I mean, that's really the thing, because that's somebody, well, you know, she,
Speaker 1 21:12
she leads the Peabody newsletter for the Peabody awards. I'm fine that Jennifer Armstrong makes a cameo in this podcast, because I love it a huge part of my publishing story.
Speaker 2 21:21
She also said something to me that I have talked about so much in the previous incarnation of this same show. So go back and listen. She talked about when her Seinfeld book hit the New York Times list, her publisher said, Okay, let's have a marketing meeting. And she goes well, but we've already had those, and they basically said, no, no. Now that we know you're successful, we're gonna have a real marketing meeting, and it completely changed, like, once the golden curtains open and you see what it's like when your publisher supports you, like they care completely different world, yeah? And for so long, I thought that was evil of them, but it's like, no, they're just business people, yeah, but you don't know when you get a book deal, you think you've been chosen, but you don't really get that. You're sort of a write off, that they're putting their money and their energy into Glenn and Doyle and Elizabeth Gilbert and, you know, JK Rowling, or whoever it is, that that they're the one of those successful books are going to carry them. So they don't care that your book is going to lose money, and they can't tell you that, right? And I've talked to publicists who said the hardest part of my job as a publicist for a publishing company was I had to lie to my writers because they can't tell you, right? So, yeah, and so making a living. Back when we kind of came up, it was absolutely possible to make a living as a writer. Now I know number one New York Times Best Selling writers who are almost household names, who are scrounging for things to do, and so, you know, a lot of people got out, but what kills me is I meet people all the time who who have no audience, who don't really have writing experience, who think that they're going to sell a book to a publisher, who also think that publisher is going to send them on a book tour. Oh, I want to go traditional publishing. Because I want to. I want a book tour. I want to be in bookstores. Well, 3% of books go on bookstores, right? So do you encounter those people, or is it just me and my
Speaker 1 23:20
yes, there's still this misconception that a book deal is a golden ticket, that an advance is actually money, that an advance is something that sends you on vacation rather than is a small percent, even a six figure book deal. A lot of authors like Jamie attenbourg, I think wrote a really great piece. I forget where she published it, but I will find it. Yeah, you can put link in bio, not link in bio, link,
23:48
you know, show notes, yeah,
Speaker 1 23:50
about the reality, yeah, right of an advance, yeah, and that it is not what people think it is, yeah. And you have to, as soon as you sell a book. Yes, you have to write that book, but already be thinking about the next one, if that's what you do as a living Yeah? And it's not, it's it is just a grind, and it is hard, and it is not a golden ticket. And we talk about, you're like Glennon Doyle and you know Mel Robbins, those are so rare. Yeah, right. And Michelle Obama advanced, well, sure, yeah, I know. I know that's not common. Writers who are amazing writers that we know who should be getting those $3 million deals aren't Yeah, and the fact that they're struggling is, you know, really sad, and they should be paid for their craft. And so, yeah, there is a misconception that it's just glamorous. And you know, having a published book changes your life, like it's it's something to be proud of, for sure, and it can it to your point, leveraging it, it is definitely an amazing vehicle. Your brand, you know, for derivative content for years, yeah, for credibility. You know, having authority on your topic, it is something absolutely anybody who wants to build their credibility should do. But it's not like a financial windfall.
Speaker 2 25:21
And, yeah, what kills me is that Harper, my publisher for six books, never told me that, yeah. Never said, Hey, first of all, who's the audience for this book? They never said that because, again, they weren't invested. These were small book deals to them and and so I mean a fortune to me, but nothing to them. And they never said, How could you build your authority around this? You know, I did books on reality TV. I did books on dating. I was never gonna. I couldn't build businesses around these things. And so that's why, with my company, I'm so obsessed with, what is your business? If it's not, you know, a seven figure business, you should not work with us, because this is to make it an eight figure business, and it's not going to be through book sales, right? So, so what? You know? And so, okay, so you went on, you did the book, you continued to work. You had columns at Cosmo day spa. Now that was a gig because of you I went to the most glamorous spot in Sevilla, do you remember you let me do that?
Speaker 1 26:24
Oh my gosh. I was so happy to send my friends to the most beautiful destinations around the world. This is what happens when you work in publishing. You get to have some of the coolest, most random jobs. So yes, I was a columnist at Cosmo. Super fun fact, not a sex columnist like Anna. Yeah, I was a career columnist. I got to write about Sarah Blakely when she started Spanx and Jen Hyman Rent the Runway, and not just fashion companies, but like the creator of Westworld and just amazing women in business like so, so much fun. And this is where I really got a taste for entrepreneurship and business and marketing, and eventually pivoted my career in that direction. But loved that. And I also was a beauty editor and got lots of swag, and was an entertainment reporter, and got to go to all of the, you know, Oscars and all the parties, and see all the people that were like, Yeah, whatever, yeah. Did you do that for? I was a, I was an entertainment reporter here in LA, for the LA Daily News. I was also a freelancer for, you know, Rolling Stone and spin and Maxim, yeah, apologies, no, it was fine. I just interviewed celebrities and wrote fluffy profiles. It was fine, but there was like an in between period. I worked at the Walt Disney Internet Group, leading a movie site, and then they sold it. So we all got laid off, and it happens in digital media. And then I'm like, Okay, well, I need something. And so there was this spa magazine that needed a managing editor. Sure, I'll take this job while I look for whatever. And then I realized, this is a sweet gig. Yeah, I get to go to all of the SPAS around the world, write about these beautiful spaces and skincare, and test all the skincare, and I need freelance writers to do the same. So why don't I send all my friends to these spas to do that? So yeah, that was really cool.
Speaker 2 28:30
And so and so is that magazine still around? I think so so and so you then you bounced to a place where you were paying $2 a word. And I got to benefit from that. Oh, yeah. Where was that? I can't remember. It was a website, $2
Speaker 1 28:45
a word. Oh, recently, live kindly. Is that what it's called, that, right? Yeah? Um, I think so. Yeah, the sustainability startup, which was my dream job. And yeah, we were, I was like, hire number three, and we were going to create an entire media company. There was a website. We were building a brand studio and building a video production company. It was global. We had corporate sponsorship that was mission aligned, like it was this perfect scenario. I really believed in the cause really, really talented people, and it was just a situation with a baby CEO who did not yield control to the grown ups, yeah, and kind of burnt it to the
Speaker 2 29:32
ground. Well, when you were paying $2 short, I was like, Well, I don't know how long this one's gonna be around, but I'll take it. I'll take it. Well, it's
Speaker 1 29:39
here. I do love that about our industry, and especially as an editor, I and I've been a freelancer so many times throughout my career that I know how hard it is, and I want to give work to my friends. Yeah, same as much as possible,
29:53
yeah,
29:54
and yeah. We've paid each other over the years.
Speaker 2 29:57
I totally forgot until I was looking at your bio. How many times you've done that for me and, you know, and you're a pro. I mean, I know we just had a, like a conversation about working together and but the thing is, I always know I can bring you in and trust you to just to do you're not gonna phone it in. You care about the material like I feel like you didn't become a writer because you thought it would be some glamorous, easy thing. I think I feel like you came into it because you were like, I have things to say, Yeah, and I'm gonna say them.
Speaker 1 30:33
I've always had things to say, Yeah, I do talk a lot. No, it's true. It's true. And then cut to mid career, like, Why didn't anybody tell me this was not right? Stop me, it's not a lucrative career. And why didn't somebody send me to business school? No, but then I did. You know, once digital media, I mean traditional publishing, gone in terms of magazines, digital media also way of the dodo bird. And so, like I said, with my business columns and I followed the curve of the industry and started to work in more senior roles in digital media companies and work in branded content, and sort of naturally pivoted to marketing, because you have to understand business. You have to understand business regardless if you're a writer, if that's what you do day in and day out, you still have to understand to understand business, but have pivoted my career into working in marketing as my primary day to day. But still love writing and publishing, and that's why I work with you at Launchpad. That's why you know, I'll take on clients to help them with whether it's helping them stand up a marketing plan or write a proposal. You know, if I'm inspired, will write something myself, but realize that you don't have to give up something you love, even though it can't be the primary thing right to pay the bills. And marketing is storytelling too. Sorry, sorry, authors, but it is. I help brands tell their stories.
Speaker 2 31:59
I find entrepreneurship as creative as writing. I love it. To me, yeah,
Speaker 1 32:03
I'm really, really digging the stories of entrepreneurship and really helping businesses. Yeah, story.
Speaker 2 32:09
And for me, I think working in traditional publishing, I thought I hated writing by the end of it, and I realized it took many years to go, oh, I don't hate writing. I hate the writing. I hate the publishing business. I hate the book publishing business, but I love writing and being able to get back to it for sheer love. The sport is something that just I've been able to in the last couple years, and I don't plan to make any living from it.
Speaker 1 32:33
Yeah. Well, and your business, you're doing, what you're course correcting a little bit is that you're being honest to authors. You're like, you're not going to be a superstar writer. That's not why we're here. Yeah, we are building a brand for you. Yeah, this book is to help your brand. Yeah, right, and it is marketing. But to your point, because I've worked with you both as a developmental editor, writer, with your authors, and, you know, overseeing the book as whatever that
Speaker 2 33:00
role is, editorial director, whatever we make it up as we go.
Speaker 1 33:05
But these are good writers that care and like, I can't not try to make it the best book possible. Like, in terms of this needs to be something I want to read and flow and be interesting. And, you know, often these are business books. These are memoirs. There was, remember that one that was that weird, that interesting couple that was like a doctor, and, gosh, I'm almost forgetting now, like, but there's sort of some like, new I'll have to remember,
33:41
was my client. Yeah. Okay, interesting. Go on.
Speaker 1 33:44
But there can be, like, these merging of of identities and like, oh, let's write a book together, and this is our story. And it can feel like this doesn't fit, but we have to make it fit. Yeah, right. Gotta make it work. But at the end of the day, yes, this is for your brand, but it still needs to be a book that they can, you know, be proud of. Yeah, they want to hand to somebody to read. And so the honesty comes with integrity as well, which is important, which to your point, traditional publishing is they're spending their money the best way they can, but they're only putting their effort towards the things that they think are going to are going to have. The ROI, yeah.
Speaker 2 34:24
So yeah. And the reason that I, you know, sort of go in there telling the brutal truth and dash dreams all the time is that in the beginning, you know, we had a book that we published where the guys just got a nice thing to put on a shelf. And it kills me, because it's a significant investment, and you better have a plan. And you know, my clients are the ones who teach me about this business every book I learn more about how to do it successfully. But if you go in, you know, as soon as somebody says when we're talking to them, oh, how many books can I sell? And I want to get the New York Times list, and I want to you. Do this, this and that it's they're not the right client for us. Sometimes they don't listen, yeah, you know, sometimes they sort of, yes, yeah, sure, sure, sure. But it's going to be different for me. You know, which I relate
Speaker 1 35:10
to, and do they believe? I mean, because Amazon is the list you want to be on, I know. I mean, New York Times list is not for it's for a handful of authors, right? Yeah, Amazon is the list you want to be on. And the fact that you can guarantee that, yeah, for your authors is pretty remarkable, well? And the
Speaker 2 35:33
other thing is the Amazon review. People think it's the New York Times review. No, it's the random person anybody in your life can review on Amazon. That's marketing. That's there forever. The New York Times review is gone. No one sees it when they're Googling your book. Okay, we gotta wrap up.
Speaker 1 35:49
We do. So I didn't cry, I did. Yeah, there were definitely some ups and downs, and it's, it's a great experience. I think I'll write another one. I'm sure it's one of those things, like running a marathon, right, which I've done, and it's anybody can do it. It's hard. You have to train. You have to know what you're getting into. You have to keep going. It's gonna hurt. You might throw up, right? Yeah? Some like, gross things might happen, yeah, but you just have to trudge through it, and you have to want to, right? And, you know what I learned from, like, the devastating things, like the books I really wanted to write after sexy feminism and that, you know, I didn't get through one was so the Madonna book was like, with this music publisher, where they accept a certain number of proposals, and it's kind of like this, they weed it down. And then I was like, Okay, you're the top three finalists, right? And that was part of it too. It was almost like the voice for book publishing. And I was like, oh my god, yeah, third runner up. So that was a big letdown. And another book, my publisher was sorry, my agent was really, really behind, and then she couldn't sell it. So that those types of things are devastating. Yeah, right. And she's one of the best in the game. You know, you learn from those heartbreaks, but then you realize, oh, but I did the thing. Yeah, I can do it again if you want to, and I can commit to it. So, yeah, do it. Do it for yourself. Do it for yourself. Do it for the right reasons. Don't do it to be rich and famous. I don't think any author gets into writing to be rich and famous.
Speaker 2 37:30
I did. That's why I was so devastated. Oh, you did. Delusional, and, and, and, you know, my parents desperately tried to talk me out of it and said, go to business school. And I was like, No, I want to do this anyway, Heather, people want to reach you. Where's the best place to find you?
Speaker 1 37:46
Come find me on LinkedIn, okay, yeah, it's my it's my social media. How things have changed. I know. Look at us today. That's where that's where I engage. That's where I think it's a good place for people to interact. Well, that's also where brand building exists now, yeah, I mean all of all of the social media platforms that can be said, but I think that's where people have to show up honestly. Yeah, right. It's a lot easier to sort of fake it on Instagram than it is.
38:14
Oh, you can fake it on LinkedIn, trust me, people do it all that is
Speaker 1 38:17
true, but yeah, come find me on LinkedIn. I also hire writers. So that's LinkedIn is good place to find me if you're, if you're a freelancer, I don't know if you should be saying that, but I know. Well, I don't I mean, you know there's a certain type of content, but yeah, come find me on LinkedIn. Pretty I'm pretty googleable.
Speaker 2 38:36
Well, Heather, thanks so much for doing this, and Thanks y'all for listening.
38:39
This has been fun. Thanks, Anna, awesome. Okay.