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On the WorkWell Podcast, Jen Fisher — Human Sustainability Leader at Deloitte and Editor-at-Large, Human Sustainability at Thrive Global — sits down with inspiring individuals for wide-ranging conversations about how we can develop a way of living and working built on human sustainability, starting with ourselves.
Jen Fisher:
Can you believe it is the 100th episode of the WorkWell Podcast Series, and what better way to celebrate then with a visit from one of our very first guests all the way back from episode one. A lot has changed since then, especially in the workplace. How have these changes reshaped our thinking about the workplace? And evolved our understanding of how work impacts our lives. This is the workwell podcast series by Deloitte. Hi, I’m Jen Fisher and I so pleased to be here with you today to talk about all things purpose, well-being, and human sustainability. I am here with Dr. Kelly Monahan. She is a researcher, writer, and speaker on talent decision making and the future of work. She is also the managing direction at UpWork, leading their future of work research program. Her research has been recognized and published in both applied and academic journals. She is also the author of the book “How behavioral economics influences management decision making: A New paradigm”. Kelly, welcome back to the show.
Kelly Monahan:
Jen. It is so good to be here, and I'm so thankful that you invite me back.
Jen Fisher:
Yeah, I mean, for our OG listeners, Dr. Kelly Monahan should be a familiar name because she was one of our very first guests on the show, which is so cool. And only fitting that we have you back for the 100th episode of the Work Well Podcast series. So, let's get back to the beginning. What led you to become so passionate about human behavior and in particular, human behavior at work?
Kelly Monahan:
Yeah. Jen, it's so good to be here. And I love that question. You know, I think what I realized as I actually started growing up and becoming an adult is we spend so much of our lives at work. And whether for right or wrong, so much of our identity and who we are is often derived from work. And so for me, so much of that feels still, and I know we can go back to what we talked about a couple years ago, it still feels so broken.
Kelly Monahan:
And so that's really where my passion comes from. You know, as I think through how do we begin to heal societies and, and do good for others, I actually think so much of that work has to start in the workplace.
Jen Fisher:
Yeah, that's so interesting. And, I mean, you referenced our conversation from three years ago, or almost, right? The first episode, which seems so, actually it's probably more than three years ago, right? It was, it was pre pandemic. Everything pre-pandemic feels like it didn't happen in some ways. So it's probably like five years ago, I guess at this point. But like, you know, you said everything still feels so broken. So, tell me where we are now and how has your thinking about the workplace changed and evolved over the past five years, and how do we get back to that hopeful place. That we can change things and that we can make it better.
Kelly Monahan:
I love that. And, and I think you're right. I think we, as I like to say, I'm still an optimist. As we think about you know, overall, as people continue to develop over time, the length of time, it gives me a lot of hope as opposed to sometimes when we look at these short-term situations. So, you know, I think what's happened, you know, when you and I spoke, you know, five plus years ago now, there was optimism because, you know, as we think about AI was really beginning to take hold in the workplace, Whether that's robotic process automation or even some simplistic machine learning that was all coming to the forefront. And I think that was going to be seen as a lever that might help us especially thinking about the theme of your podcast.
Kelly Monahan:
Is that going to actually help us work better and be well at work? And so, I think that's where some of the optimism was coming in and what was happening at the same time, talent was rising to the CEO agenda. And so yes, we still had to make a business case. And I remember we talked about, you know, what is the ROI that CHROs in particular need to be making? And fast forward five years later, and AI has only continued to accelerate in advancement. And I think the trouble is we had a global pandemic, you know, in the midst of that. And so people had to be forced to work differently very quickly.
Kelly Monahan:
And so, I became so optimistic because I thought, oh my God, this might be the breakthrough moment. we need to get distributed work right, to get remote work right, to lead differently, to actually have very human conversations especially centered around wellbeing in the workplace. And so I think we saw that happen at the onset of the pandemic. And I think where I'm concerned today, and, you know, we're doing a lot of research to figure out, to equip leaders, how do we make sure we don't revert back to pre-pandemic norms? And so, the fact that so much of our headlines are still focused on where we work, how often do people need to get together as opposed to saying, hey, how do we actually create organizational systems that are distributed, that still are digital, that still enable human connection? And, and I think we're still not quite having that conversation yet, which is a bit surprising to me.
Jen Fisher:
And I also think that, you know, so much of the conversation around, I'm just going to use the broader category of like technology, but inclusive of AI and generative AI is, you know, I think back, you know, 10 years ago and the promise of technology was that it was going to make us more efficient and therefore we'd have more free time, and therefore we'd be able to pursue more meaningful human work, but also pursue passions and have time outside of work. And I feel like with technology in general, perhaps it made us more efficient, but we didn't, we weren't given that time to do things that we were necessarily passionate about, or that felt more meaningful or felt more purposeful. Right? I feel like we were all just like, okay, you're more efficient and more effective. We're just going to give you more work to do. And so now I feel like with AI and generative AI and all these new things and new terms, like it feels very, it still feels very fear-based in many ways, as opposed to, okay, well how do we as humans actually use these tools in a very positive way to enhance our humanity in the workplace, as opposed to, you know, just continuing to kind of grind and give us more work or work that still doesn't feel meaningful and purposeful. Can you comment on that?
Kelly Monahan:
Yeah. And I think it's funny, it's probably where some of my thinking has evolved since the last time we spoke is, you know, I think at the time I was pretty bullish on people being able to, to make the right decision. To your point with some of the efficiency and free time that we've unlocked. And I think the unintended consequence, and maybe a bit of a surprise has been that a lot of the technology that we've consumed has actually become very addictive.
Kelly Monahan:
And so, a lot of that time saved that we have has now just turned into another technology platform or another technology use as opposed to actually using that free time to connect with others in real life or go on a hike in nature or some of that. And so I do think that as organizations and as leaders, we have to be very explicit in the guardrails that we put on technology use.
Kelly Monahan:
It is so accessible. It's on our phones, it's everywhere, and we, it's, it's, it's not our fault, right? Like looking about a behavioral science, we know as humans we want to do the right thing oftentimes, but if the technology and systems are wired to have a path of least resistance, where it's too easy to pick up that phone and check a message or, you know, check back into work at 10 o'clock at night, I think we've got to be careful that that has become very normalized in a lot of organizations.
Kelly Monahan:
And so, the question that I'm trying to work on with leaders is, one, how are we defining success that I think needs a big rewrite to get everything else right. If success is measured by simply shareholder price gain, or to your point productivity or efficiency, that there's no human measure in all of that. And so still trying to think through how do you measure the human value and innovation that can come through in connection? And then secondarily, how do you then create the guardrails and be very explicit with role clarity norms, here's how we operate and here's how we work. And when that we're human beings who thrive off of role modeling, learning from others. So if our leaders disconnect and our leaders have the guardrails in place and they're explicit with their norms, their teams will be so much healthier. But we've got to get I think this is very much has to be adopted at the very top.
Jen Fisher:
Yeah, I completely agree. And you know, we've had a, a conversation or two, you and I more recently about the evolution of my role and the focus on human sustainability. And that's at, you know, at the core of it, right? Is that, you know, that the, the organizations, you know, need to move to a, you know, a mindset of how do we provide value for our people as much as our people are providing value for us. And what does that look like? You know, and so that it's, you know, there really truly kind of is this virtuous loop of valuing the humans in our workplace and being able to, you know, measure and understand like what that looks like and having some real human measurements. So I love what you're saying, how are we going to get there?
Kelly Monahan:
I know this is where I do have the luxury of being a researcher. But no, it's a very fair question, Jen, and I love your shift too since we've last spoken towards sustainability. Because I think that's the right frame and that I think is something that we can begin to measure over time. And more tangible. So I'm excited for you on that. You know, how do we get there? It's going to take a lot of work. And it's funny, I'm working with a lot of CHROs and HR leaders. And a lot of it, what I'm hearing this week anyways, is around culture and really just needing to change our organizational cultures to value and reward sustainability and actions that are sustainable. I think if I had to guess, we've probably over rotated a bit on developing high performers.
Kelly Monahan:
You know, we are always trying to develop those hippos within our organizations and figure out, you know, how to retain them. But I think as you know, we've all seen, there's so much burnout that comes with the way that we've designed high performance today, and then shifting culture and expectations that this is how we work now. This is what work actually looks like and it's going to, it's going to feel different. Like even coming post pandemic, it still feels different to be a worker today than it did five years ago. And so we're rewriting the rules in real time. And I'm just hoping that companies that are leaning in on distributed work, enabling flexibility, setting parameters around technology use and making sure that it's benefiting the individual as opposed to profits as an example, that they will win. And I think we're obsessed with like, modeling companies. So if those big companies that adopt these new behaviors start winning in the market, I do think it'll be a pretty fast follow.
Jen Fisher:
And I mean, we, we continue to, I mean, those of us that are kind of deep in the research and the science of it also know and believe that when we do set the right guardrails and give people the right permissions and model the right behaviors to disconnect from work, for example, the, the benefit is not just to the person, but it benefits the organization as well. Right. And so it's, I think it's really important to be clear that it's not like people or profits, right?
Kelly Monahan:
Oh, a hundred percent.
Jen Fisher:
When you value your people and you do right by your people, you also do right by the organization. So I guess my question to you is like, what do you say to leaders that kind of challenge you on this to say, you know, that are perhaps kind of stuck in the older ways of working or don't think that these behaviors are, you know, going to serve an organization well?
Kelly Monahan:
Yeah, that's a great question. And we have some research coming out soon that shows, you know, these behaviors we're talking about around putting guardrails around technology, embracing flexible talent models and giving flexibility, and where and how people work is still rare. I mean, we only found 23% of companies today that their leaders feel confident enabling those behaviors throughout. So, you know, I think there's still a lot of resistance. You know, I think where I ask to encourage, where I've been having conversations recently is asking leaders, how are you defining productivity? Because I think if we're missing on the productivity aspect, and we still believe productivity, as an example, if you're a software company and you still think productivity is the amount of lines of code your software engineers are writing, I don't think that's going to be the best metric that's going to get us to a place where we begin to redesign work.
Kelly Monahan:
And it places the emphasis I think on sometimes the wrong attributes and at task level as opposed to defining productivity as other companies have done such as around, you know, how do you make others around you better within the system? What sort of value and contributions are you making? How are you completing your work, you know, as efficiently as possible? And then it doesn't matter what you're doing with the rest of those hours, I don't even need to have a 40 hour week mindset anymore because that's not how we're working, you know? But yet we still have these like faux paradigms, nine to five, Monday through Friday, 40 hours a week. But I think you and I both know very few people are actually working under those norms, but yet that's how we think about productivity. And so that's where I'm trying to drive a different level of conversation is to say, and I don't know if you agree with this, I'd be curious your thoughts. I don't even think it's an ROI conversation anymore. I think there's so much data that's out there that proves that working in a way that's sustainable is good for people and businesses. To me now, it's trying to have that a new north star metric around productivity, because that's where I see the hyper focus today at the leadership level.
Jen Fisher:
I just struggle with productivity as I think it's an important metric alongside, you know, many others that help define success of an individual or of an organization. But I recognize that it's an important part of the conversation. If it was up to me, I'd probably get rid of a productivity metric altogether and say like, are people getting their work done? Or, are they not?
Jen Fisher:
It's almost black and white. It's like, forget how the, it doesn't matter to your point. Like, it doesn't matter how much time it took them to do it or when they did it, or even where they did it, but did they do it and did they do it to meet or exceed expectations? And if the answer's yes, then it's all good, right? And so maybe that is the productivity metric. I don't know.
Kelly Monahan:
Well, Jen, that's so, it's so wise you bring that up though. Because I think that's actually spot on. And it's funny cause I think what you just hit on is what's really underlying a lot of the concerns around productivity is trust in the workforce.
Kelly Monahan:
And so, I know we've had conversations around this before, but do you trust your workforce? Is becoming so much more paramount of a question. And our research, we found companies today that are leading in just flexible work, not even remote first, just having some degree of hybrid arrangement, are two times more likely at the leadership level to trust their workforce. And so it's, if you don't have trust, it's much less likely you're going to adopt these, you know, what were future of work, work in the now behaviors. And so I think that's right. I think maybe even before we get to the productivity conversation, we need a metric of do you trust your workforce? And that almost needs to be some level of management gatekeeper. Before we let leaders lead, because there's too many people today that are leading large workforces that simply just don't trust their workforce to do the right thing.
Jen Fisher:
So you just mentioned future of work which is and kind of has been a huge focus of yours. When will the future happen? Like, are we in the future of work now? Is there a future of the future of work?
Kelly Monahan:
I do think if we were to reflect before the pandemic and think about the amount of people that were working remotely, it was single digit numbers at the most part. So that to me felt like, okay, well that does feel like a future conversation because we really can't figure out yet how to enable remote work at scale. That was an IT issue, an HR issue, like tax laws and compliance. There was a lot of reasons why it didn't happen that accelerated overnight because of the pandemic. And so that now feels like a here and now conversation when it comes to AI disrupting the workforce. And the tasks that we do that now feels like a here and now conversation, especially with the onset of generative AI.
Kelly Monahan:
And that to me, that's not five years from now, that's today. And then as it comes to like workforces, how we think through a variety of different talent arrangements also feels like a here and now conversation. You know, gen Z in particular is demanding more flexibility and expecting it and opting into more freelance, you know, the US 1099 type work arrangements. And so again, like we can't wait five to seven years to actually start solving for these conversations. So I am all about, here's how we work now. This is what it means. And don't, we don't know what the next five to seven years it's going to hold. But God, I hope we figure out remote work at scale and flexibility and having AI be a friend and not a foe. As we think about sustainability. So, I don't know, Jen, maybe in five years we need to come back. It'll be what your 200th episode.
Jen Fisher:
I don't always like to talk about, you know, generational differences because I often feel like, you know, when my generation was the younger generation, you know, we had all the same trials and tribulations in the workplace. But, you know, I do, I completely agree with you that the, there's a significant difference in the sentiment and expectations of our younger workers. And it brings me a lot of hope actually, when you ask me what brings me hope, because I, you know, they are demanding things be done differently from their organizations or the organizations that they choose to work at. And they will choose not to work at an organization if it doesn't align with you know, with their values and needs. And so can you talk a little bit more about that and what you're seeing in your research?
Kelly Monahan:
Yeah. I'm going to share a little bit of the research then also just you know, lived experience moment too, which was so eye opening to me recently, which uncovers the big theme that I think is happening with this generation, which I think is, to your point, it has little less to do with the generation and probably more just around where we are as a society.
Kelly Monahan:
But I think for so often, even as a millennial, we saw work as a, you know, one-to-one relationship with our employer. And yes, we maybe started to bounce around faster at higher rates than previous generations. Because again, we had the freedom to do so. But I think what I'm seeing with Gen Z is this desire to have a relationship to one, too many. And I do think some of this is birthed from, you know, them truly being the first digital native social media native generations where they're used to connecting to multiple individuals, multiple companies at once. And I think that's carried over a bit on the employment side. And so, you know, to your point, I had a conversation a few months ago, someone who was a Gen Z, and they just told me straight up as their manager that they were looking for another job.
Kelly Monahan:
And that to me was a bit of a culture shock because I thought, oh wow, like you're a high performer, you're on this project. And they just wanted to have an open dialogue of, hey, before I do this, I don't want to blindside you. This doesn't feel right how even we think about exiting an organization. And it was so humbling for me to one, check myself thinking, here I am as like this future of work leader realizing that the level of transparency and open dialogue Gen Z is willing to have, and that they are looking to have a one to many relationship. And so they want to still be, maintain a relationship with me as a leader or a manager, but they're now ready to move on to a different organization. And in some cases multiple organizations is what we're seeing in our research. And so I just think that means, what does that mean when we no longer have a one-to-one relationship?
Kelly Monahan:
You know? And again, it's not about even loyalty, it's just they want variety of tasks. They want variety of income sources. They just think about employment very differently. Because they can, they can go be an influencer and have a side job on a social media platform. They can have a, you know, a corporate job. They can do multiple things And so anyways, I just think it's interesting to think through how do we as leaders, one, probably check ourselves if we were to be honest and enable this newfound flexibility. Because the amount of creativity that comes from that and all the different contexts that they’re seeing and different customers are interacting with, I actually think is pretty powerful. It can bring a whole new way of working to the way that we think about work today.
Jen Fisher:
That’s so fascinating. And it, where my mind went is, you know, it also means that, you know, I think in my own experiences and in the book that I wrote with Ahn Phillips that Kelly, you had so much influence into. So, thank you for that.
Kelly Monahan:
That was fun.
Jen Fisher:
You know, we talk about, and we've heard for so long that, you know, and this still rings true, but like, you know, people don't leave organizations, they leave bad leaders or bad managers. And what I'm hearing you say, that's probably true. Like if you're a bad leader or manager yes, your people are leaving because of you. But what I'm also hearing you say is that might not always be the case. You might be a great leader or a great manager and somebody just wants to leave to have a different experience.
Kelly Monahan:
Yes, a hundred percent. And I think that the freedom to do that and the flexibility to do that, you know, you think about all the different platforms that are out there that you can contract and get work from.
Jen Fisher:
Yeah.
Kelly Monahan:
It's fascinating. So like, if you think about like, you know, I think when the millennials are coming to the workforce, everyone thought, you know, oh, they're here to pursue their passion and this or that.
Jen Fisher:
That’s what I mean by like all generations. Like I feel like they said that about my generation. Like, you know, when you're young in the workforce, of course you wanted to pursue your passion.
Kelly Monahan:
Yes, totally. And but now I think the ability to realize that is, profound. And, I think that again, like do you talk like, let's be optimistic. What are we optimistic about? I'm absolutely optimistic that the variety of choices of employment now, I think in a broader conversation with that, that leads us to is how do we think about decoupling so much of our social safety nets that are found through a traditional business employment? What does that look like? That to me is a future of work conversation. Because we're not there yet, but around what does those worker arrangements look like and how do we make sure that we have the right safety net and protection for all worker types so that no matter what generation you're part of, you can pursue a variety of career options.
Jen Fisher:
Yeah. And, I really love the tie to that related to human sustainability. Because one thing that we talk about from a human sustainability perspective is the upskilling and re-skilling of workers. Not necessarily so that they stay in that or in your organization. But when we kind of flip that mindset of like, you know, what's an organization's role in bettering humans from a societal perspective and making people employable, whether they're employable for the long term at your organization or somewhere else you still have a role to play in making sure that you're providing skills and learning. Regardless of, you know, again, regardless of whether they stay at your organization. And I think historically, we used to tend to kind of, you know, going back to your HIPO framework, like we used to really invest in those high performers that we thought were going to stay with an organization for the long term. Right? So we'd get the full benefit of that investment. And now that mindset is shifting that, you know, this is what's greater for the broader society, broader community, broader business world. And so organizations do have a role to play in looking at talent differently and skilling its talent differently.
Kelly Monahan:
Yeah. You know, that's a really good point you raised. And, I think maybe that's part of the big redesign that needs to take place as we think about, you know, how we work now, the expectation of a business leader has dramatically shifted, I think in the last 30 to 40 years. Whether that's weighing in on societal level issues, having a point of view and some very sensitive topics. You know, as we're talking about, like caring about your workforce sustainability and, and caring enough to, to care whether or not they're doing well and healthy and thriving. And so, I do think there's probably a big educational reframe that needs to happen if we as a society say, yes, business should be weighing in on these things. They should have a predominant role in helping solve for societal level issues. You know, that's where I do become empathetic to leaders.
Kelly Monahan:
Especially those who have been leading for a long time. This is, this is a do your day job and all these extra tasks that just you know, I think that's where we have to be honest. This is certainly additive to the day-to-day job.
Jen Fisher:
Oh, for sure. My husband and I were talking the other day and you know, both, we kind of looked at each other, we were talking about something and we were like, you know what, it's real. Like, it, it's probably always been really hard to be a CEO, but it's really hard to be a CEO right now, and have a lot of empathy. Right. I mean, in the world we're living in that is really disrupted by one thing or another. It's very hard to be a CEO. And so I, you know, and I'd love your perspective cause we talk a lot about you know, bringing the workforce and the c-suites together, right? Like this idea of like, can we really co-create the work that we're talking about, right? Because I feel like right now it's, you know, leaders or a set of leadership that are talking about the redesign of work. And so how do we, how do we go about actually co-creating work? I know we talk about it, but like, is there a scenario in which that is actually reality?
Kelly Monahan:
Yes. And you mean the workforce is actually co-creating alongside leadership some of these new paradigms? It's, I mean, I wish I had more positive news on this from our research. As you know, I think most consultant research that's coming out, you know, in our research too, we did find a disconnect between the c-suite. And honestly, this was a little surprising to me, even amongst their VP and directors. So, we didn't go frontline workers this time. We really wanted to understand is there alignment on, again, this new way of working at the leadership level? And we saw a pretty substantial disconnect as you continue to move down from, you know, c-suite, VP director and senior manager. And so I think we're starting to see, at least for me, the first time I'm sitting in the research, a pretty profound disconnect even at the top of, you know, what is the purpose of business?
Kelly Monahan:
Do we trust the workforce? How are we thinking about incorporating AI? Should we enable a remote friendly, you know, culture? All of that I think is being hotly debated even at the top within many organizations. And so, as we think about co-creation, I do think, like my caution is we have to make sure the ones at the top are aligned. And I think there's some work to do on that just because, again, like no one was questioning some of these debates that we're having today. It just, we weren't thinking about remote work at scale. I mean, it was talked about, but it was put in the future work bucket, not in the here it out bucket. Right. And so, I hope, you know, technology should be our frontier. The ability to listen to your workforce in real time. That to me is going to be the key unlock is being able to democratize data so that your entire workforce is having true visibility into the organizational health, the operations. And then they're able to redesign work in real time with the more transparency and visibility that they have. And again, this is where I do see AI and data prediction being a bit of a friend here.
Jen Fisher:
Yeah.
Kelly Monahan:
And then there needs to be a feedback loop. So as much as the workforce needs to be empowered, there needs to make sure that there's a channel back up so that they can provide the real-time feedback. I mean, we've seen this in multiple use cases in the seventies and eighties with automotive companies that were able to compete well because of the feedback loop and the front lines. And so, it's like, what does that look like for the digital workforce and how does AI enable this in real time? So those are the ways that I'm thinking about it. But I think it's going to be a challenge because of the disconnection I'm seeing up top.
Jen Fisher:
Yeah. We’ve seen in some of our more specific wellbeing related research, just the disconnect between, you know, the more senior leaders and the C-suite and the remainder, you know, the rest of the workforce just in terms of views and perspectives on how the workforce is actually doing with their wellbeing. The c-suite actually thinking that the workforce is doing a lot better than the workforce says that they're doing, and so that's kind of where I was coming from is like, how do we bring this together, right? Like, how do we get the c-suite to understand the workforce's lived experiences and, almost vice versa, right? Because to your point, and what we said before is like, it's really hard to be a c-suite leader right now, you know, like there is so much going on that in many ways I almost feel like if we don't come together, we can't solve this. Like if there's not listening on both sides, to your point right, this, this feedback loop, then we don't have a chance of actually figuring this out, because I feel like, you know, we're just pointing fingers at each other.
Kelly Monahan:
To your point, just the art of listening. And I think doing that, I don't know how you feel about this, but in a remote environment, in some ways it should be a great equalizer. Because there is no top floor office, we're all covered in on the same size zoom box. So in some ways it should promise a more flexibility and access to leaders. But at the same time, I actually, again, I think going back to some of the elements you've written about around human connection, it's hard to listen to a remote environment in many ways. And it's hard to make the work visible. And, I think that's where I worry a bit sometimes that remote work might be doing us a disservice in this regard and maybe amplifying some of the disconnection and lack of co-creation because we're not physically together. And so, I do think it's up to leaders to bring the workforce together over periods of time to make sure that they are listening. Because it's hard to fake it in person. I think it can be easy as a workforce to fake it over you know, video calls.
Jen Fisher:
Yeah. And so I think what, I mean, a lot of what I'm hearing you say is that you know, the skillset of a leader, or what's required of a leader has significantly changed. But perhaps many of the leaders, probably myself included, haven't fully stepped into what's needed in this moment.
Kelly Monahan:
It’s difficult. And as I mentioned, being around the HR groups this week. Getting that culture right is so difficult right now. Yeah. And so I think, I guess maybe the positive outline in all of this is I hope we can be more open-minded and more of an open ecosystem as we think about tackling these issues.
Jen Fisher:
I love that.
Kelly Monahan:
I think often we've operated right in closed system and affecting our IP. And instead, this is a global challenge that everyone's trying to get right. And so, I am optimistic that we might be leaning more into it an open ecosystem. cause I think we can all learn from each other.
Jen Fisher:
Yeah. I love that. So one more question for you, Kelly. And it's more of a personal question. So, we've talked about kind of all aspects of how work has changed over the last five years. How have you personally changed over the last five years? You know, so much has gone on since like social unrest, a pandemic, climate crisis, all of these things. So, and just like the importance and the need for the work that you're doing, how has that impacted you as a person over the years and perhaps impacted your perspectives on work and how you work?
Kelly Monahan:
Yeah, no, I love that question. So, I think I'll start at a very personal level. I have truly embraced remote work and living and breathing it myself. So, I made a move from Philadelphia to Florida over the past year, which has just been an eye-opening experience to learn just a different rhythm of work. Even though, you know, obviously being at Deloitte previously, which is a distributed company, have learned to work remote, but still kind of was always anchored to an office.
Kelly Monahan:
This has been great for me to actually learn in real time some of the friction points that maybe my research isn't picking up on. And just having a more of an honest assessment of the current state of what we're doing right. And, where we can improve. So, I do like actually being a, a test case myself right now. And then from a research perspective, you know, it's funny, I think the one thing I'm changing my perspective on is leaning more into qualitative research, and storytelling. And as much as I'm still have, like, you know, like I said, we're going to be releasing this research. We've got almost 2000 global executives we've researched and surveyed. Those are so powerful. But I just think at the moment right now, I can continue to tell you, well Jen, you know, these 23% of leaders are getting high performance and here's the ROI stats, but that's not moving the heart of leaders today. And so, what I really am trying to do is listen more deeply through interviews, spending more time on the ground and really taking a more active listening approach to understand this seems so obvious. So why isn't this happening? And why are we having the same conversation we had five years ago? Why haven't we learned? And why are we reverting back to pre-pandemic norms? And as I'm listening, I'm getting more and more empathetic to realize this is a big ask. You know? There's a lot going on right now, as you've mentioned, at a social economic perspective, at a geopolitical perspective. And all of that many organizations have suffered somewhat within their balance sheets through the pandemic. And so, we're thinking about are we going to be entering a recession or soft landing? And so, you've got companies embracing for continued economic uncertainty. It's a lot. And then I'm saying, okay, well now you have to figure out how to reengage your workforce.
Jen Fisher:
And do everything differently out with the old.
Kelly Monahan:
Exactly. In the midst of this context. And I'm like, God, they're right. Like there is so much happening and this feels like a micro issue and they can control it. And if they can just go back to how they managed and led before they feel like life would be simpler. And so, as much as I'm trying to still rally against that with my research, as a researcher, I'm taking much more of a qualitative listening approach because I think the issue is too important to me. And I do think people are intelligent and I trust leaders to do the right thing as well. And so, I know that there's some barriers getting in the way that I really want to uncover over the next year.
Jen Fisher:
I love that. And, you know, I was worried that we weren't going to end on a hopeful note about the future. But I actually felt like that was, that was very hopeful. I mean, and, and I love the fact that you're kind of taking this more like, you know, heartfelt view of research. So, I love that.
Kelly Monahan:
Yes. I know. I got to get beyond the numbers Jen.
Jen Fisher:
Well, you know, that's why you and I were always such a great team because like you, I'm awful with numbers. I still am. Nothing's changed there. So, I still need that from you. But yeah, I mean I do, I think that the time is calling for something different from all of us and something that's significantly, you know, it's not easy. Right. These are big, big hairy problems. And I think we also live in a world where we're used to immediate solutions, and this doesn't have an immediate solution. This is a long-term solution, you know, whether we like it or not, it's long-term.
Kelly Monahan:
Absolutely. Yes.
Jen Fisher:
Yeah. So, well, Kelly, thank you so much. I feel like I could go on for hours with you and we might need a part two, especially after your big research project comes out in a couple of weeks. But yeah, thank you for being on for our hundredth episode. We can't wait till 200 to have you back on again, that's for sure.
Kelly Monahan:
Oh, I can't wait. Jen and your guest list just keeps getting higher and higher, so I appreciate, I still made an invite back.
Jen Fisher:
You did. I love it. Thank you so much.
Kelly Monahan:
Thanks Jen.
Jen Fisher:
I’m so grateful Kelly could be with us today to talk about how the workplace has evolved.