Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
What if your company culture wasn’t just an HR buzzword but the secret weapon to scaling your business?
Welcome to Kan Talk Kulture, the podcast that dives deep into how remarkable company cultures are intentionally built and how they can transform your team, your business, and your bottom line.
Hosted by Kylie Anne Neal, founder of Kan Kulture and a passionate expert in people, culture, and leadership, this show is designed for business owners, CEOs, HR professionals, and anyone who believes that empowered people are the key to long-term success.
Each episode features real conversations with inspiring CEOs, business leaders, and culture champions who share how they’ve shaped their team environments alongside case studies, practical tips, and bold questions that challenge the status quo.
Whether you're looking to boost employee engagement, create a high-performance team, or align your people with your vision, this podcast will help you connect the dots between culture and growth.
At Kan Kulture, we believe in Kindness, Understanding, Learning, Trust, Uniqueness, Respect, and Evolving, and this podcast brings those values to life.
If you're ready to turn your team into your biggest brand ambassadors and create a workplace people love, this is the podcast for you.
Find out more at www.kankulture.com
Hi, I'm Kylie Anne Neal, founder of Kan Kulture and welcome to Kan Talk Kulture In this podcast, I sit down with some of Australia's most. Progressive founders and CEOs to explore the heart of their company, cultures, what drives them, what they value, and what it's really like to work for the companies they lead.
You'll also find occasional episodes packed with practical HR insights to help you. Build safer, stronger, and more trusted workplaces. So whether you're a new team member, getting to know your workplace, curious about creating remarkable company cultures, or just wanting to know more about implementing HR best practice, you are in the right place.
Let's dive in.
Hello and welcome to the Kan Talk Kulture podcast. I'm Kylie Neal, your host, and today Tammy McDermott joins me from Lawnch. Welcome, Tammy. Hello, Kylie. Hello, Tammy. Thank you so much for having me today. Thank you very much for coming in today. Tammy McDermott is the co-founder and director of Lawnch, which is a professional services firm.
So Tammy has a reputation as a trailblazer in corporate and commercial law. After a successful career in law, she stepped away to build and scale two successful fitness businesses, and then came back into law with a really fresh and innovative approach, and that's what brought her to co-founding Lawnch, which I'm really excited to hear all about today, Tammy.
So let's get right into it. We speak about. Quiet. Quitting is something that we talk about in the HR world. Yes. Quiet, luxury. Uh, and you really are a quiet disruptor in the industry of law. Tell us about that and tell us what that means for you from a personal branding perspective, a personal branding
perspective.
Uh, quietly I am attempting to shift. The culture in professional services and predominantly in law is I'm a lawyer, so we, we do offer. Um, RD Tax Agent services as well. So Lawnch is a professional services firm, but I'm a lawyer. Yes. And the industry in my perspective, from my perspective, is broken. Yes. I have grave concerns for what the profession's gonna look like in 10 years time.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and so from a personal branding perspective, what does that look like? It looks like four years ago, I distinctly remember the moment I was sitting at the Women of the Year awards for the very first time. And there were people up on stage that were the most awe inspiring, most impressive women.
There was also young women of the year that were in the first years of high school that I looked at and felt like I was just a speck of dust in their shadow. And I went away from that event and really realized that I wasn't happy with my personal brand because I had aligned myself with the profession.
When I made the decision to step back into it, I had left the profession because it didn't align with me culturally from a values perspective.
Right.
Um, I had stepped away when I had my first child when I was 30, and when I stepped back in, I was 35 with a second child. And I changed who I was to fit into the profession.
Yes. Which I felt I had to do to go back to law. And I was playing the game, I was doing it, and I felt sick to my stomach almost every day. I was physically ill. Um, my body was responding to the fact that I, you know, I outwardly thought it was stress, but that award show and sitting there and reflecting it made me really realize it wasn't stress.
I was in conflict with my value system and, and who I was as a person.
Yes.
And I went away and I always go to nature when I'm looking for introspection. I went away and I sat down at, um, my local creek, which I find is a very spiritual place, and I wrote out what I wanted to be known for. So if people were to describe who I was, what did I want them to say about me, what did I want to be known in market for?
And I wrote that list out and I realized that that. Was the beginning of what I set out to achieve as a personal brand, and it wasn't. I, I really struggled with using personal brand because I don't like being in, in the public eye. I don't like having a camera on me, but I've really realized that in order to further the message in the cause that I, that I am shifting and the cause that I'm pushing through with, through my business and through my work outside of my business in the community, I, I have to be.
Present and I have to have a face and I, I have to do this, I have to do this podcast. I've, I've had to learn to get comfortable with the uncomfortable and now I'm actually really comfortable with it and I've been really looking forward to today 'cause I now love it. Amazing. But personal brand is such a personal thing, which is so silly to say.
A personal brand is so personal. Um, but I did write down what I wanted that brand to look like without realizing I was creating a personal brand and a persona. Yes. And I then took steps to achieve it and slowly but surely I ticked off the items that I needed to, to achieve, to deliver on what that looked like.
And now the greatest sense of achievement that I have is when I hear in market the reputation that. I have in market, and that makes, I'm getting goosebumps just thinking about it because I don't love it because it makes me big or it makes me feel important. I love it because it means that if I can shift, everybody can shift.
Yeah.
And that means that what I'm trying to achieve as a movement in the profession is achievable. If people get on board. It's possible. I've done it. I've done it in four years. Yep. I've done it in less than four years. Um, and it was a very conscious decision to change, and it's achievable, Kylie, and I'm excited.
So my hope is that more women, more men, more early budding, early professionals hear this and really realize that. You don't have to accept mediocrity and culture. You don't have to accept medioc mediocrity in the profession. And that doesn't mean that you are entitled to be entitled. Yep. And it doesn't mean that you are able to demand things that aren't quite ready to be yours.
To demand. It means that you can demand to be treated with respect, and it means that you can demand to, you can demand the profession to shift because I've done it and I'm so happy and so. Lit up inside that I've managed to achieve it and because it tells me that anyone can.
Wow. Yes. That is really powerful, Tammy, and really powerful.
You gave, you gave me chills as well when you were speaking. Yay. Because I could hear that struggle in your voice between. The ego that is the law industry. That might be stereotyping, but it is the ego. And you said a couple of times that I don't wanna be, you know, I don't want the face on camera. I don't, it's not about that ego.
No. It's purely about being bold and being courageous and being a bold, courageous woman and really standing in your power of what it really means and how. You want to live your life and how you want to share your message, and that is really powerful. Thank, thank you. Like really powerful and you know, I really honor you for.
Being so brave in, in the world, like being so brave that the legal industry is a big industry. It's obviously a very stifled industry. Very much so. You know, and it takes, you know, if you think back to when you were, um, when you were at. School, school lever going, I wanna study law. Mm. And then you get to today for the journey that you've been through to sit, work, work within the depth of what the legal profession is, and then stepping out and just going, I, I wanna throw it on its head.
I wanna stand courageously in what? I can take with my skills and learnings as being a lawyer and how I can contribute to society in a much more passionate and purpose-filled way. It is so powerful. Thank you. I honor you. I commend you. Well done.
Thank you. It's, um, look, there's, there's been moments that I literally vomit from the stress and I actually have a friend who runs a very successful business.
She has a staff of 30. Um, I, I look up to her so much. Um, she's called Amber, and Amber said to me once, she said, you know that feeling that you get and you, there's a voice and it's, you've gotta push that voice down. She said, give it a name. And then when you hear that voice, you talk to it and you pretty much say, fuck off, fuck off, mate.
I'm doing it anyway, so I acknowledge you. You're there. Great. Let's go. I, I hear you. I feel you doing it anyway. And I just, I'm a mother. You're a mother. Yes. Most of us are mothers. If we're fortunate enough to, to have that, if we choose to. I look at my daughter who is 11 years old. And she is a budding professional.
Yes.
There's no other path in front of her that I can see despite her having a spur. You know, she has aspirations to be a vet, which I know that she won't be able to do 'cause she can't stand blood, um, or mess. I, I know that my little girl is the one that walks into doorways because her head is in a book.
She is a going to be a professional. I know it, my hand on heart. And who am I to look her in the eye and not do what I'm doing? I, I wouldn't be able to live with myself. As much as I really struggle with the decisions that I make, Kylie, because there's moments like this week alone, I've, I've not been home three mornings and I've not been home three nights.
So there's been a period of three days where I've not seen my child. Mm-hmm. Um, well, I have two children and my son. Hello. I love you two very much so. Um, but I haven't seen my children and my, my daughter very much needs her mom. Yes. And so I know that I'm letting her down in some respects, but I'm doing it for, for her and for all of our daughters because.
I want them to step into a profession where it's not even a talking point that they're paid 11.5% less than their male counterpart. It's not even a discussion point that there are less than 10% female executive leaders from on the ASX listed board of directors. It's, it's not even a talking point. It's just there.
And if we don't. Quietly disrupt in every single respect like you do in yours. If we don't shift it within our respective industries with exerting the influence that we have, what legacy are we leaving for our children? Yes, we have to. Kylie. Yes, because I stepped into law 20 years ago with stars in my eyes, having been raised to believe that we were all put afforded the same equal opportunity I was.
Fully cognizant of the fact that I had to work really hard to achieve that I wasn't gonna get given to me on a plate. I was, I'd been trained very well by my parents to work hard and to excel to get something. But what I wasn't expecting was to get smacked in the face with misogyny to be smacked in the face with a stagnant industry that pockets you.
Teaches you that you're not worthy.
Yeah.
And it's up to us to say we are.
Yes.
And I don't accept the vernacular that you're imposing upon me. I don't accept the society lessons that you're imposing upon me. I, I choose not to and break away from it. And that's the quiet part because I hear it and I still encounter it.
I, I was sacked by our largest client earlier this year because I didn't have a male senior lawyer that could represent them.
Wow.
Um, it's still everywhere. And when I say that, people are quite shocked and think today. Yes. Today it's, it's everywhere. And you would see it in your profession. I see it all the time.
And all that you can do is acknowledge it. Move on and keep going. Yep. And keep pushing through. And thank the voice for reminding me of why I'm doing what I'm doing and, and, and listen to the body responding to that, sit in it, and that, that reaction, that physical reaction of your body. It's because you're doing something that's really difficult.
Yes. But the difference between ordinary and extraordinary is extra. And we have got to do the extra as leaders in our respective professions. If we don't do the extra, it won't shift. Yes.
Yes, body plays such a big part. The body keeps a score and you are so true and we could do, we'll, we'll, we'll do a whole other episode on, on the Body and you know how, how we show up because it's not just our minds that show up.
It is our, we are full, full embodied and we, you know, it's, again, to me it comes back listening to your talk is that you do fully embrace the purpose and you've. You've got clear articulation of what you stand for, what you're here for, and you are unapologetically being brave in a will that can work against you, but it's not bravery for you anymore because you are actually standing in that power to you.
It's just. Why wouldn't I?
Mm.
Why? Why wouldn't I be so bold? Because you see your daughter, you see children around you. You see women entrepreneurs, and you see, you know, women that have a lot to contribute, but play small and stay small.
Yes. And then you also have the women that get into leadership positions that.
Hold other women down.
Yes.
So it's, it's, yes, it's, it's, it's two parts and I see both. I see women who are constrained by their belief system, and I see women that are being constrained by their female leaders, and we have to fight through both of those situations in order to, to get. To the position of being able to exert some form of influence.
Yes. To shift the profession. To shift professional services because the model of professional services is broken. Yes. And if we don't shift it, what future will our budding professionals have? Yes. We have to shift it.
Yes. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And talk to me about how that shows up. So there's the mindset to shift the industry.
Yes. Let's come to your business of Lawnch. Mm-hmm. So how does that show up? How do you actually do law for yourself in your role in the business? How do you do law differently? Through the lens of Lawnch?
The, the legal component of what I do, the legal component of what our lawyers do, it's probably 10%.
There's in the commercial space. It's the commercial practicality of the situation at hand. That is the real value for clients and the commercial practicality of the situation in place is put through the lens of experience. It's put through the lens of the client's risk profile.
Yes.
It's put through the lens of what is the outcome that the client is seeking to achieve?
What are the options if this doesn't happen, and guiding clients through that process. Amazing. That's what we call advisory. The application of the law is you instruct me to write this particular clause into a contract. We get instructions, we act on those instructions, but what our job as lawyers and advisors, let's talk about the advisory piece.
What our job as a legal leader, yes, is to explain to clients what the options are in front of them. What the risks are to those options crystallizing and what the benefits are to those options Crystallizing? Yes. And then arming the client to make a decision, to give you instructions on what path they should take.
Yes. That's advisory in a nutshell. Yes. And the important element of advisory is experience. It's also what you can't get from ai. Yeah. AI cannot tell you what to do in that particular situation to get the outcome that you are seeking. So some transactions and deals, the clients don't, you know, they're happy for it to fall over because they have a plan B, others don't have a plan B and they're cooked and they just need it to to happen.
If they need it to happen, then you're not pushing back on 50 different clauses. You're just pushing back on the clauses That may necessarily affect a particular area of the contract for the client. It's measuring what the client wants to achieve and overlaying that with how we are transversing with the opposition on the other side.
Yes, and that is something that I don't see in the law firms that I'm speaking with every single day. I don't understand why. Um, my co-founder, Ben Tumi and I, we started Lawnch with a very clear vision of arming clients with the information that we want as consumers ourselves. So when you are going out and you're an example, you're engaging a marketer, you don't know what you want, you want 'em to tell you what you want.
Yes. And you just want it to work. And I don't wanna have a conversation about it. I just want you to tell me, do this. And I would actually, I don't even want you to tell me what to do. I just want you to do it, and then measure the success, refine, and move on. And I think that's the same for legal services.
Clients don't want to have conversations about this and that, and do this and don't do that. Clients just want a great outcome, and our job as their lawyer is to figure out what that outcome looks like for them, because a great outcome is different for every single client. And lawyers don't do that because we are trained as a profession to mitigate every potential risk, to caveat everything, to yes advise clients on x, y, Z.
Um, it's legally we're obligated to, to do so much from a risk mitigation perspective, from our insurance perspective. Which we can do in an email after you've had the conversations with the client. Yes. So we can still cover ourselves professionally. Yes. And give the advisory element of what a client is looking for.
Yeah. And it's such an important component of professional services that seems to be missing. It's the service element of professional services and I think the legal profession, there's a prestige to it. I don't know if there is anymore, but there very much was. Um, there was, I dunno if there still is. Do you think there still is?
Yes, definitely. Okay. Okay. Definitely. But what is it
that's prestigious about it? What is it to you? It's so foreign to me that it's prestigious. 'cause our industry stinks. Yeah. So what is it that's prestigious through your eye?
I feel like, well, from my experience, if I can talk about it from a HR perspective.
Sure. So in, in my career, you know, I've been, I've worked in companies that have an in-house lawyer, legal team, or, uh, if there's something that needs to be outsourced and escalated from an employment law perspective, that's the one that I can look at it through and. In my experience of lawyers, it is the HR is the connection to the business, even when it's in-house.
Mm-hmm. And the lawyers will sit in the room that they'll take a briefing, they'll give the briefing back for HR to go out to the business because they don't, they don't have the commercial acumen. They don't see it as their role. So you know, they can be, I I, and I'm very much generalizing here, but this is just based on my experience.
Some of the lawyers that I've worked with before are, they have an elitist mindset, which I think comes from that. I'm going to, you know, study law because I, I guess traditionally it comes with this very, uh, elitist. You need to have a very good score in high school to become a lawyer. You need to study very hard to become a lawyer, and you need to have the intellect to become a lawyer.
Mm-hmm. So I feel like even from, that's questionable. Even from, but even from women's. Where, you know, at school it's, you know, a, a, a lawyer and a doctor, and those types of professions require a really high academic score. And so when you translate, from my perspective, when I look at it through a, a human lens, and there's, you know, I think, uh, there's, there's five different types of intellect and academic intellect is one of those intellects.
But when you look at the complexity of workplaces and what the requirements are, sometimes that academic lens. Uh, disables them from being able to see the whole picture and to work really commercially. That would be my take.
Got you. I understand through that lens. Um, I understand the prestige even society, so lawyers and doctors are afforded privileges when you're applying for home loans, um, that are different to only we get them.
So I do like that part. Uh, but I think, I don't think our industry is worthy of the prestige that it is attached to in today's society. I think society is no longer willing to tolerate the culture that systemically exists within law firms. And that's why I have grave concerns the profession moving forward in that if, if we don't shift the culture for clients and for staff, our profession won't exist.
Mm-hmm. So just as a, a high level, um. Legal registrations have declined in Queensland, and that is even factoring in the number of lawyers that have relocated from Sydney and Melbourne here through COVID. And we've still managed to decline in registration numbers. Uh, law firm numbers are declining, so I've been watching the registrations for law firms in the Gold Coast and in Brisbane.
And registrations are declining and they're declining at a, at a, at a lower level, so the seniors are staying. Mm. But there's a real gap in market between the three and 10 years experience level, post admission experience level. People are leaving the profession. They're no longer tolerating the culture that exists within law firms.
Mm. And conversely, I'm picking up clients. Lawnch is picking up clients that are leaving top and mid tiers. Because they don't, they no longer are willing to tolerate the lack of service, the lack of advisory, the lack of support. Mm. Um, there's a huge shift Mm. In what society is willing to accept. And if we don't get on board as legal professionals, as HR professionals
Mm.
We won't have professional services in 10 years because the only people that will be left doing it will be a hundred years old. There's, you won't be able to replenish. Without replenishment, you don't have a future.
Yes.
It doesn't exist.
Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Let's talk a second for, uh, advance, um, advancements in.
Tech. Mm-hmm. You know, advancements in technology because, you know, with, with chat JPT and we, when we, we touched on this earlier that you can't get a contract out of chat JPT, but if you think about it, there, there is that approach, and this is, this is my mindset again coming through, but you have your technologies and you have your traditional services.
Like, you know, even, let's call in, you know, marketing, finance. Uh mm-hmm. HR, legal, they're all traditionally been shared services to organizations. All of those shared services need to completely rearrange what they're bringing to the world and what they're offering Businesses, because of advancements in technology and because of the way that the demands are, are changing a hundred percent.
How do, how do you feel? Lawnch, uh, 'cause I actually think that that Lawnch the way that your business is, does put you in that future ready. Standpoint. Mm. It does. You know, and I'm sure that you, you've thought about this and almost, you know, perhaps being in front of the curve by starting this four years ago where you were like, it does need to, to be different, but if you look at it from technology and the way that it needs to advance
mm-hmm.
Where, where are you putting your offering to businesses so that it can translate easily for them, for it to be palatable for business owners.
How are we translating technology into the provision of services for client? We use technology to speed up the delivery of services. Yeah. So we have, um, very strict rules as a law firm with the technology that we're able to integrate into our CRM.
Mm-hmm.
So, full disclaimer, I'm sure that there are phenomenal programs out there that could speed us up further, but we are limited as a requirement of our cybersecurity insurance. Sure. Our legal professional insurance Sure. As to the programs that we can integrate. But what we do have is. We have access to technologies, to systems within Lawnch that enables us to validate our theories, to validate our thinking expeditiously, to translate that into speed for clients, which in turn results in a reduction in their legal fees because we time cost.
So move quickly is one of our values. Yes. For that very reason. Yes. Because we need to move quickly and with speed, but without. Dropping the ball and not being factually or legally correct.
Yes.
And then overlaying the technology for validation as to the confirming of thinking with experience. Mm. That is how we package up the utilization of technology within Lawnch.
And I have tested. Every single opportunity to integrate AI that we can into our CRM and system. Not, not everything in market, only the ones that we are permitted to, to integrate.
Mm-hmm.
And the technology isn't there as a replacement tool. It's not there yet.
Mm-hmm. It,
I'm sure it will be in the future, and when it is I'll pounce because the minute it's ready, we'll be fully integrating it into our systems.
Yep. But for now, it's not quite there.
Yep.
I think it's getting in better, but because technology relies on the quality of the information that is put into it, it isn't quite there yet. And the top tiers, the mid tiers, the big four, they're all rolling out their own technologies and closing the doors on those.
They're, they're not commercializing them, they're using them internally only. Yep. Um, so if. What the technology that is available in market has been prepared by, in some of them lawyers that have 12 months experience using template contracts that they found online, which they've just regurgitated into an online platform that's designed to replace lawyers and law firms and act as You're essentially in-house counsel.
Yes. So it's not there yet. Yep. I'm all for adopting technology. I love the ease that it is enabling us to deliver services. I love that. But I'm cognizant as well that it means that sometimes we move a little too quickly and we're a little bit too available because of access to those technologies. Yes.
Um, which has an impact on mental health, which is an entire different conversation. But I'm all for the technology and the integration. But it's gotta do so without compromising on quality. Yes. And without compromising on application of experience.
Mm. And I'm sure you know, similar to uh, how we approach technology at Kan Kulture is the benefit of it is that in it enables more time to be advisory.
Yes. It enables more time to have the conversations and the discussions Yes. That matter. Yes. To pull out from your clients what you actually need to. Educate them on of what, whatever their situation is from a legal perspective and mm-hmm. Help them have enough of an understanding. Mm-hmm. Um, so it is that com that free up of commercial time that I think, you know, from, for, for Kan Kulture that's the true benefit of technology for us.
Mm-hmm. Um, and from what I've said, what. I've heard that's similar for you and your offering. Mm-hmm. So, given that, given that we are, um, you know, focusing on culture in these podcasts so we can hear from you, your, your passion, your purpose, your quiet disruption, disruption's such a, one of those. Corporate words, but let's go with it anyway.
It's a little bit wanky. It's a bit wanky. Um, but you have that, that innovative mind. You are, you are bold, you are courageous. How does that translate to a team? How do you enable your company culture to, uh. Harness their unique qualities, but still honor what Lawnch is all about.
The answer is very easily because the culture, the values that we've set, the culture that we have created is very much wanted.
Yes. So it's been very easy to adopt it within the team. A common sense approach in the application of law developing commerciality. It's a common sense viewpoint. Anyone who's been a recipient of professional services knows that it's broken, the service element is broken, and the lawyers that are coming through and are joining Lawnch, they've experienced it themselves, or they have parents that have businesses that have experienced it.
So they've been trained and taught that law is broken. Mm. They're aware of the issues in In practice. Yeah. They've all come from other law firms where they're stuck in those archaic practices. They're all coming from that, and they know that they want to shift. They know that it doesn't quite feel right.
They've got that yucky feeling in their stomach. Mm. So they already have it. Mm. And it's just showing them here it is. Yeah. And it's like a warm hug is how they describe it, because this is what they've been looking for when they come in. Yes. The difficulty we have is aligning experienced lawyers. Um, the level of experience that is needed in the development of application of hard skills yes, is very much suffering in the industry off the back of COVID.
So a lot of lawyers work from home, almost solely working from home, which as an early career lawyer, has stagnated their learning and has implemented. Poor hygiene when it comes to drafting clauses or when it comes to time recording or when it comes to knowing how to approach a situation, they've not been trained.
And so not only are people leaving the profession because of the systemic culture that exists in in law firms, but it's also because they don't have. The necessary capability to deliver on what they're being asked to deliver. Mm-hmm. And they intrinsically know it.
Mm-hmm.
And so they're feeling terrible about their capability as a lawyer as well as feeling like it just, their workplace doesn't feel like that hug.
It feels like a punch in the face. Yep. And so they're leaving. Um, and our solution at Lawnch is we have hard skills development and we have soft skills development and hard skills and soft skills are aligned with every position. In Lawnch. We have 10. Set positions with 10 set salaries with a matrix, which shows the hard skills needed and the soft skills needed to progress through.
Fantastic. That's how we've ensured pay transparency. That's how we ensure equality in the workplace. Um, everyone can move at their own speed, so for instance. Some. To go from an associate three to a senior associate requires an element of business development, which means going to events. Yes. The lawyers that never wanna go to events know that if they want to jump from associate three to a senior associate, they're going to have to tackle events and push through that.
Yes. Some of them will and some of them won't. Yes. And that's their own choice. That's their learning. But instead of sitting in a law firm and and staying as an associate for five years with no one articulating to them. Why they haven't jumped to a senior associate, I've been able to give them that map.
Amazing. And so
it gives them control and they're empowered to achieve at their own pace. And they know what the salary is for the position above them. So there's no, oh, is he being paid more than me? Is she being paid more than me? Is their favoritism being bestowed upon that employee or it, it's just removed?
All of that. Yeah. Fantastic. And it's created an environment where people are just comfortable. Mm-hmm. And. They're authentically themselves. Yes. Because they're comfortable with the position that they're in because they're comfortable with the skills. They look at the position chart and say, well, I can see that I'm not quite there yet and I'm okay with that.
Yeah, so it's, it's created a culture where there's no competition, which is great because competition squashes collaboration and collaboration equals great outcomes for clients and law firms clinging onto work. For so many different reasons, but the process of doing that is archaic. It results in poor outcomes for clients.
It results in great billing, which is what the law firm's focus is. But it doesn't equal good outcomes for clients, and it doesn't improve the learning for the individual lawyers that are working on those matters. Yeah. So we have created a system that mitigates all the concerns that I've just mentioned.
Yep.
And so far it's going great. So we're not quite two years in, we're two years in this month, believe it or not. Um, it's flying. We could have doubled in size, Kylie, but we haven't because we are limited by the number of resources that we have. Yes. So if you're listening to this podcast and you are a corporate and commercial lawyer or an r and d tax consultant, um, please, please reach out because we'd love to meet you.
Yeah. We are always looking for new professionals to join our team. Yeah. And I can't wait to see what next year brings for us the future. I'm very excited.
Yeah. Amazing. Yes. And it sounds like if there were lawyers that were sitting in the large corporates at the moment, even being able to come to a place where they get to spend their days.
Being authentically themselves, you know? Absolutely. Stripping off those, um, corporate barriers. Yes. You know, getting away from the, the suit and tie and the stifle of those types of environments and just coming in to work hard, to work at a fast pace to, yes. Be energized and to ignite that true sense of purpose, which is not what you would get in a law firm.
Like just that, that true sense of heart of what you're showing up to do for your clients every day. It would in itself, you know, money is really a motive. Salaries are really a motive and they matter. But there are so many other factors that Lawnch can provide too. New starters and to people within the law profession to view things differently in a, in an avenue that they perhaps don't even know exist.
Hmm.
And I am also proud to say that we have benchmarked our salaries against the mid tiers in Brisbane and Sydney. So we do pay benchmark salaries, but without the billing expectation that you would have if you were in those firms.
Amazing.
And I'm proud to do that because it means that profitability isn't as great for us as it would be in those top tier firms.
But it's for a purpose. Yes. Because I want my team to go home with their families. I want my team to be able to have, you know, go surfing if you don't have children, pick up your kids if you have children. There's that flexibility that comes with with joining Lawnch that is. So important to me that the employees have Yes.
Because that equals happiness. Yes. It, it equals them feeling great about coming to work every day because they know that they're not literally tied to the chair leg. Yes. As I was when I was coming up, and even as little as five years ago was tied. And so those elements of creating a team have been so important to my business partner and I because.
Without them, we won't have a profession. Yeah. And so it's just doing, all we have done is create a firm where we would want to work. Yes. And that we would want to engage as a consumer.
Yes.
That's it. Yeah. And it seems so simple. Yep. But no one else is doing it. Yep. And we need to do it. Yep. In every facet of professional services.
Yeah. For ourselves to feel better about who we are for the mental health of our respective professions.
Yes.
97% of all lawyers will have a mental health decline at some stage in their career. 97% isn't that insane. Insane. Insane. Insane.
Absolutely. And tolerated. Yeah. What?
Yeah. Yeah. Um, and all these firms have.
You know, psychosocial welfare policies, but also require them to bill nine hours a day. Billing nine hours a day equals working 12 hours a day unless you're fixing the clock. Yes. So how do you have a psychosocial welfare policy? Yes. And in good conscience, ask your staff to sit there for 12 hours a day.
Why am I getting emails from lawyers on Sundays or at 11 o'clock at night? Prime example, last night. I've got a deal that's going on at the moment. I had an email with a revised. Term sheet come through at six 30 last night. A meeting to go through it at 7:30 AM today. What were you expecting me to read it at four o'clock this morning?
Yeah. It's just that culture is gross. It's disgusting and it makes me feel icky and we have to shift it. We, we have to as leaders. Yeah. It's,
it just should no longer be tolerated. Yeah. From a HR perspective, I hear contradictions all the time of companies and normally larger corporates offering mental health days and additional leave.
And, but they say and, and quite, um, it's, it's like an on a badge. They're like, we've got these benefits, but it's okay because nobody takes them up. It's
disgusting and it's so inauthentic. It's ticking a box. Without actually taking ownership and responsibility for shifting the culture. Yes. It is not acceptable to expect your staff to work the hours that they're expected to work because of the prestige of the profession.
Yep.
It's, it's, it gives me grease bumps. Yep. It's not acceptable.
Yeah.
And. We wonder why we have a problem with crime, with with youth. We wonder why we have a problem with families and divorcing. It's because of the culture in workplaces where you're frowned upon. Mm-hmm. If you leave at five o'clock to go and pick up your children.
Yes. Or if you leave at four 30 to go and make an appointment. Mm-hmm. It's blows my mind that we're still placing these rigorous expectations upon our staff. Just for the badge of honor of working as a lawyer. Yeah. This is why the profession is declining. People are not tolerating it anymore and rightly so.
Yeah. It shouldn't be tolerated. Yeah. But we have to create a world where it is not expected because otherwise the profession will die. And that is what you are doing at Lawnch. Well done. Thank you. Well
done.
Thank
you, Kylie. Just, just something else and I wanna bring it back to you. You do quite a few other things, community led outside of Lawnch.
I do. Just quickly talk us through what, what roles you play in the community.
Uh, I'm on the board of Liven, the mental health charity. Liven is, means so much to me. Um, we don't have a lot, much longer, and I could talk about this for hours, but I was hospitalized with postnatal depression with my second baby.
I planned my suicide. And what that process taught me is that if I can get to that point of a mental health decline, and I'm the most put together, controlled, articulated person, and I got to that point, it shows me that mental health does not discriminate.
Yeah.
And I'm really open about it, Kylie, because I want everyone to see that it is, it affects everybody.
It, it affects the people that you may not necessarily think that it affects. Yep. So my commitment to live in is, is really important to me. What does it look like on a day-to-day basis? It looks like me getting involved with the community events, it looks like me being available to offer strategy. It looks like we support them in a pro bono capacity at Lawnch as well.
Um, and giving back to the mental health community is something that I'm, I'm just dead set committed to my, my daughter has mental health issues already. She's only 11. Um, we, mental health affects so many people. Yep. Just, just looking at, we only have a small team at Lawnch. We only have a team of seven and three of us have had a direct family member commit suicide.
Three out of seven. It's still the leading cause of death in young Australians. Yeah. Isn't that wild? Yeah. If you are under the age of 45
mm-hmm.
The leading cause of death is suicide.
Mm-hmm.
Why? Why is that? Still happening?
Mm.
Probably because of the circumstances in the workplaces that we've been discussing.
Yeah. So the natural link in to live in for me is creating environments where you, you can have a positive mental health experience and that mental health is discussed openly. Yes. Is how we, uh, Lawnch, assist with positive mental health wellbeing experiences. Um, and it translate into something different for everybody.
Everyone has different. Ways at which they nurture their mental health.
Mm-hmm.
But. My commitment to live in is just so important to me on so many levels, and I'm really proud of the fact that I championed their first charity ball last year. We, we held our second, um, which the team facilitated themselves this year.
They did it amazingly well. They did better than me, and I'm so happy to admit that they did. Um, they raised more money, they got more people there. It was more fun. And we raised 130,000 at our recent ball. Wow. And we're looking at doing one in Melbourne next year and branching out and spreading the word.
Further within Australia and I'm, I could not be more committed to the cause of living.
Yeah. Fantastic. Well done. And it does, you know, the. The way that you talk, you know, that boldness, that curiosity, but also the vulnerability, you know, emotions. There's a whole gamut of emotions that we can experience, and we are very emotional beings that present ourselves in the world.
So for you to really. Honor that part of you makes me feel emotional, but you know, well done for honoring that part of you because it's not just about showing up and being in front of the the camera for advocacy for something that's important to you, but when something like that has affected you and your family so deeply, and so I got you.
So deeply and so personally, and for you to bounce back and have the resilience and have the honor of yourself as a person is really remarkable. Thank you.
Thank you. You are very kind. I, um, I have scar tissue, but I'm proud of it. Yep. I wouldn't be me without the experiences that I've had. It cost my family significantly.
We lost in the vicinity of. Six, 700,000 as a result of what I went through. I was, um, bedbound for six months, which meant that my husband couldn't work. We, we, our businesses were impacted, had to sell our home. I was still dealing with the ramifications from it, but the fire that it slid inside of me to find the energy to, to give, to live and to give to the community to.
To take the coffees off the back of this podcast, I will get people reaching out for coffees because when you are in the depth of a mental health decline, the only thing that got me through was, was seeing someone else that had been through it and survived and going, if they can do it, I can do it. Yes.
So I will never say no to someone when they reach out and ask for that time from me. And if you need that time, send me a message on LinkedIn. I will happily have a coffee with you or, or a virtual coffee. It's so important that we all find the time to do that. And, um, yes, that's my mission, is creating a workplace that has, is the place that I always wanted to work.
It's the place that my founder, co-founder, alongside me always wanted to work. It's the place where we wanted to engage if we were in looking for legal services and to give back to the mental health community. Through my work with ln, I, I'm so privileged to be in a position to do what I do. I see it as an obligation to speak about it and to do what I do.
I actually don't see it as a choice. I see it as an obligation. I wouldn't be able to look my children in the eye if I didn't do it. I wouldn't be able to look my team in the eye if I didn't do it. Yeah. Um, and I really hope that anyone that's listening to this or anyone that has something that's burning inside of them that they want to do, and it's their belief system, which is holding them back, shed it.
It's a choice. Yes. That belief system is a choice.
Get rid of it. Shed it.
Honestly, it's an overnight decision. You don't need to go through therapy. You don't need to have, you know, think things through. You don't need to wait for that light bulb moment. It doesn't exist. It's a choice and it's, you make the decision, you execute the decision, and you just do it.
And if anyone wants to talk about their purpose and that they've made that decision, I really welcome the chance to meet you because. One of the greatest areas of joy in my life has been meeting people like you, Kylie, and meeting other women that are lit up inside with purpose. Yes, we find each other life is drawn like magnetizing.
Yes. I can't wait to meet more people that, uh, have found their purpose and are living it. Yep. Um, I love that. There's no greater joy in life for me. Is there for you? No. No. Nothing's better. Nothing. It's,
it, it really is amazing, like getting rid of your boundaries and getting out of your own way and really standing in your true sense of purpose is really something that.
Unfortunately not everyone experiences in their lifetime. They, they can't see it, they can't grab for it, and it's, you know, sometimes it's really difficult for people to, particularly if they've suffered severe mental health issues, it's really difficult for people to stand in their power and to go, this is who I am.
Like unapologetically. I've got something amazing to give to the world. And I'm not afraid to say that. It's amazing. Yeah. People play small. They don't need to. Don't play small. Don't play small. Don't play small. Just
play. Yes, just play. Yes, yes. And, and step into your light because everyone has one and everyone's light is different and let it be seen.
It is a choice. And if you are going through a mental health decline, I managed to see my light because medication helped me.
Mm-hmm.
And then through therapy, I really was ready to then shed the medication and step into it on my own. It was a choice though, and the choice to shed the old stigma of, I've gotta change who I am to be a lawyer.
You know, that decision that I made four years ago after attending the Women of the Year Awards. I wrote down what I wanted to be known for and what I wanted to then do to achieve that, and I've done it, and anyone can just. Shed it. Make a decision, shed it. Step into the light. Yeah.
Feels so good. Do it. So good.
Tammy, thank you very much. I have really enjoyed me. You brought me to tears. Am I the best? You brought me to tears and you brought me to my power all at the same time. So you really, that's amazing. Uh, you really. Such a remarkable person and I am honored to have you in this space today with me. So thank you very much for joining me.
Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it. Thank you, Kylie. Yeah, thank you. And to all our listeners, you know, please, you know, share this with somebody. If you know of somebody that could benefit from. Tammy's messaging for either from a law perspective or from a mental health perspective.
She's, um, an absolute force to be reckoned with, and I'm really looking forward to see what the journey of Lawnch takes over the next few years. Thank you. Thanks for having me, Kylie. Have a great day. Thank you. Thanks for joining me on Kan Talk Kulture I'm Kylie Anne Neal. I hope today's episode gave you a clear review into the values driving your workplace.
All sparked new ideas about building a remarkable company culture. If you're a founder or CEO interested in sharing your culture story, or if you are looking to build a safer, stronger, and more trusted workplace, let's connect. Visit Kan Kulture.com That's K-A-N-K-U-L. TUR e.com to learn more. Please hit that subscribe button to hear more real conversations with founders and CEOs and hands-on episodes full of people.
First culture advice. I look forward to connecting with you on our next episode.