Intersectionality, Complex Identity, and Liberative Ethics with Rudolph Reyes

In this episode, Ian is joined by Rudolph Reyes to discuss intersectionality, complex identity, and liberative ethics. He shares his experience as someone who's a "multi neurodivergent Latino" and talks about the ways race and disability justice are connected.

The transcript of the episode is available here: https://share.transistor.fm/s/4475035f/transcript.txt

Miguel de la Torre: http://drmigueldelatorre.com/

Alyssa Hillary [Zisk]: https://yesthattoo.blogspot.com/
https://www.assistiveware.com/blog/person/alyssa-hillary-zisk) 
https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=O55BzwcAAAAJ&hl=en.

If you have any questions, or just want to say hi, email us at [e-mail] or find us on twitter @autismtheology.

This podcast is brought to you by The University of Aberdeen's Centre for Autism and Theology.

Website: http://www.abdn.ac.uk/sdhp/cat

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Creators and Guests

Host

Ian Lasch

PhD candidate at the university of Aberdeen researching autism and the Imago Dei

What is Autism and Theology Podcast?

The Autism and Theology Podcast is a space where we engage with the latest conversations in the field of autism and theology, share relevant resources, and promote ways in which both faith and non-faith communities can enable autistic people to flourish.

Our episodes are released on the first Wednesday of every month. We have a variety of guests who are related in some way to the field of autism and theology. Some are academics, others are people with life stories to share, and some are both!

We also release CATChat every third Wednesday of the month. These are shorter and more informal episodes where your hosts will share news and give you as listeners an opportunity to ask questions and share your stories.

Rudy Ian intersectionality
Zoe: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Autism and Theology podcast, brought to you by the Center for Autism and Theology at the University of Aberdeen.
Ian: Hello and welcome to this episode of the Autism and Theology podcast. I'm Ian, and I'm so glad that you've joined us this week. This podcast is a space where we engage with the latest conversations in the field of autism and theology, sharing relevant resources and promoting ways that help faith and non faith communities enable autistic people to flourish.
This podcast is run from the University of Aberdeen's Center for Autism and [00:01:00] Theology, which we've shortened to CAT. If you would like to access the transcript for this episode, it can be found via the link in the show notes. Today we are joined by Dr. Rudolph Reyes, Assistant Professor of Christian Ethics and Latinx Studies at Garrett-Evangelical Theological Seminary.
Rudy, so glad to have you with us this morning.
Rudy: Yes, no, I'm glad to be here with you.
Ian: Rudy, your work and area of study has to do with the intersectionality between being Latinx and being neurodivergent. Do you mind talking a little bit with us about the intersection between those two identities?
Rudy: Yes, no, I would love to talk about that.
1 is, of course, it comes from both personal experience as someone who's a multi neurodivergent Latino. But then also seeing how that—those intersections happen within the larger community. So, particularly for neurodivergent latinxs, there's an erasure of their identity because of the friction between race and [00:02:00] disability.
Oftentimes, race and disability are pitted against one another. This can be seen oftentimes, you know, ableist arguments used for different forms of oppression, and then therefore some communities tend to then want to distance themselves from disability. I think a great example where we can see that type of erasure is around issues of kind of special education in sense of oftentimes there'll be some districts that will have larger amount of English as a Second Language students or Latino students in special education and some of that is because of the thinking that because English isn’t their first language that somehow they need special education or kind of questioning their intelligence and so that is it's definitely, um, kind of a problematic in a way in which anti-Latinx racism and ableism intersect.
But then what often will happen is in the kind of advocacy for that, it will erase those who are both, let's [00:03:00] say, neurodivergent and Latinx who need special education or engage with it. And so oftentimes, in these intersections, there's erasure where if we were to look at certain issues, for example, the amount of, police, brutality is high for people of, of color, it's even higher for those who are disabled people of color.
And so these are different ways in which these interactions happen. And so a lot of it has the erasure happening at this intersection.
Ian: Yeah, so sort of a, a lack of recognizing the complexity of individuals that you're dealing with, because we want to, we want to narrow everyone down to a single category rather than, rather than facing the reality that a lot of people have, have sort of multiple categories or multiple identities to which they belong.
Rudy: Yes, no, that's very true. And also what happens in part of this in terms of also in [00:04:00] terms of the research is that oftentimes it becomes a misreading of neurodivergent Latinxs in terms of their behavior. Oftentimes within, let's say, predominantly non-Latino spaces, their neurodivergent traits will be read as part of being Latino, right?
And then when they're back into their own, kind of more predominantly Latino, cultural spaces, their differences will also be recognized. Oftentimes they're different than what gets, singled out in non-Latino spaces, but then maybe it's attributed to them being kind of, bicultural or to some other aspect.
And so what happens in this regard is that there is a misreading, right? So even, for example, in my own, life, while I do speak, I grew up speaking a little bit of Spanglish, English is my primary language. And so when I submitted a paper in college, I had a professor who said, “oh, there's a lot of grammatical issues, but I [00:05:00] assume this is because English isn't your first language?”
Now, one, just because of being brown skinned and having the last name Reyes, He assumed that English wasn't my first language, and therefore the grammar was due to this, due to that, rather than an expression of my neurodivergent writing. Now, the important thing is, while some of these misreadings can seem like, can seem kind of inconsequential or just kind of annoying, but to realize that oftentimes these misreadings have both kind of material consequences, right?
In terms of Latinx people's engagement with the police or within higher education or within job settings that people can, it can end up to people losing their life or to losing their livelihood or losing out on opportunities. And so there's a sense in which this misreading has grave material consequences. [00:06:00]
Ian: Right, yeah, it's, you know, it's very easy to think the stakes are low if we just misunderstand someone, but the stakes can be, can be quite high, depending on the circumstances and we don't, we're, we're not always the best judge of, of when, when is which of those times.
Rudy: Yes, no, I do. I do think, like you said, it is hard to judge, about those, those times.
I, and I think that's why, uh, there's some of the work, particularly growing around the notion of cross neurotype communication, which is basically resetting the inter-engagement between neurodivergent people and neurotypicals in a more kind of cross-cultural setting, because oftentimes it is seen as it is only—the issues with the neurodivergent person not being able to communicate are being understood.
And so I think one of the things about that is then there's a little kind of humility that has to [00:07:00] go into the engagement, right? And, and also between neurotypes, but I think that's a way of kind of setting us to engage with others in a, a much more.
Kind of graceful manner and, um, being more hospitable. And I think one is just not knowing, right? We assume when we engage with someone, we know exactly what it is that they're saying, right? That if someone happens to be sharing in a certain way that we think, oh, they must be, or they're being rude. But no, that's just the way that they're communicating,
Ian: Right, I, you know, for me, my background is in translation. I used to work as a translator. And so I often consider it through that lens. But, but I think a sort of cross cultural lens is not identical, but conveys the same thing, right? What we, what in autistic studies is often referred to as the double empathy problem.
The idea that this isn't a deficit on someone's part. It's just a difference. And autistic people communicate differently, [00:08:00] than neurotypical people do. And so, yeah. Anytime you're trying to communicate across that difference, there's some translation work required. And if we frame it as deficit, or we frame it as, we frame it through our neuron-ormative expectations, then what we're—all we're doing is, is expecting people to communicate the way that we want them to, and importing our own assumptions about it.
But the same thing, I think, applies culturally. And especially if you're in a—let's say a cultural space that that tends to be white Anglo Saxon and is and your, even your conception of autism is really built around that, then it then it becomes really, really difficult to separate out, “What is what is my assumption here? And what is just a cultural difference? Right?”
Rudy: Yeah. No, that's a great point. And [00:09:00] because again, if we only see autism or other forms of neurodivergency in a particular lens, then we're only kind of primed to engage people with that. And then if, let's say, someone happens to be a woman or a Latino or Latina, then we will kind of, again, go into that misreading and to realize that, you know, the traits, if you want to use that language can be kind of expressed differently.
And so I think one is that again, which I think is important is that the cross-cultural communication, that needs to also understand about disability and kind of cross-neurotype communication. Otherwise, it's missing a very important aspect of, inter- and kind of multicultural engagement within different community spaces.
Ian: Yeah, and even those, it's just interesting considering through the lens of culture, I think, how much of that is, [00:10:00] is a culture of its own, right? There's a culture in autism studies or in autism communities or in, autistic ally communities, right? There's a culture that grows up around that. That's sort of unavoidable.
And you're, you tend to import a lot of those assumptions into interactions that you have in those spaces, which is again, like you talked about, that sort of erasure of other complex forms of identity.
Rudy: Yes, it's that erasure. And I think 1 of the important things too, in terms of these encounters, and I know you may have actually talked about this before, but is the sense in which there's a kind of presumed incompetence of women or people of color.
And so people bring that in their engagement. And so when someone is also both neurodivergent and can't kind of, it's sometimes the advice sometimes in communities of color is [00:11:00] that you need to be twice as good, but it can be hard if your way of engagement is more neurodivergent, because then you're kind of conscious of both the pressure of, “oh, not only would they kind of see me as maybe incompetent, but then they're going to attribute that to my racial identity.And yet it's part of my expression of my neurodivergence.”
And so I think one, too, I think. You're really good about bringing this up was about how disability advocates talk about resuming competence, right? And so we engage with other people, the need to assume competence and then engage them in different ways.
Another thing I would say in terms of this as well, is that I have both appreciated being as you're talking about in the spaces and more kind of neurodivergent spaces, or even if it's spaces or in others, a kind of grace in engagement with one another that happens. I mean, [00:12:00] even an example, I'll say is that this is the 2nd time that we've recorded this podcast and you were very gracious to me because I was having a very bad executive functioning day when we try to record the 1st time.
Now, I think you were very graceful and for me, I felt like that's an example of kind of, what can happen in these spaces. Where I think it can be a lot harder to for people of color for other to then be able to engage in that because there's so much layers they're seeing. But I think there's so much that neurodivergent communities can offer to the wider church and to others about how to engage with one another.
Ian: Yeah, I think, you know, one of the things I've mentioned this on the podcast before, but one of the things that we that we on the podcast have sort of realized is how little some accommodations can cost us, right? And the default in society tends to be shutting down accommodations or saying, well, that's just not how we do it.
And, and because that's not how we do it, we're not [00:13:00] going to offer this accommodation. And I get that impulse because I've had that impulse, right? So I'm not judging anyone or finger pointing, but it's just remarkable sometimes how little it costs, you know? And we talked about, we've talked about that on the podcast.
And like you just mentioned, you know, doing a second, second recording of this is like not that big a deal, right? Because it means people are going to be able to hear what it is that you have to say, which I think is really important. So, yeah, it's just, it's that presumption of competence and that willingness to, to make accommodations and to support people doesn't come easily.
But it's one of the, it's one of the important things that I, that I am still learning from disability spaces, we’ll say.
Rudy: Yeah, that's very true. And I think it reminds me about particularly disability justice, there's talk about accessibility as a process rather than as a [00:14:00] goal. And I think that is a kind of helpful orientation to it because it's something that then we kind of do together.
And you're right that it's, it can be hard, even as someone who, again, engages us in this work. I also realize the times where I confront providing accessibility and you said, it's not it doesn't, it's not very much for me to do, but then how there's that kind of internal resistance, right? Is I think is one of those important things.
And it reminds me to have something in terms of this is more with kind of, kind of chronic illness and disability studies, but how oftentimes we have to be aware of kind of the, well, one scholar talked about, like the politics of resentment that oftentimes what happens is, because accommodations will oftentimes question the norms of how we work, right?
Or even if we think about within church, like, offerings or things kind of question the norm. And for some people there can be resentment because they think, “oh, [00:15:00] I'm having to do this at this level, then why aren't you?” But it's unfortunate that then the impulse is to then try to foreclose the accessibility rather than saying, “wait, how can I, how can we make it to everyone could have an accessible space or engage with things accessibly?”
And so I think those kinds of, internal impulses are always—it’s always, it's always good to be aware of those.
Ian: Yeah, I think, you know, 1 of the things that we talk about over and over again in disability spaces is that those types of supports and those types of accessibility concerns actually benefit everyone.
And we have, there is a tendency—an unfortunate very human tendency to say, “well, I suffered through this so everybody else needs to suffer through it,” right? And you see this once you I mean, once you are looking for this, you see this everywhere, right? But there's plenty of examples. You know, there was a, I can't even remember the example exactly, but there was a time where [00:16:00] there was a snow day and they had at a school, they had to shovel off the snow from the stairs and left the ramp covered.
And it's like, well, if you had just shoveled the ramp then everybody could get in there safely, you know, and it's one of those things that's like, this actually would benefit everyone, you know, curb cuts are another example that this actually really benefits a lot of different people, if we're willing to take that step to make those accommodation, but often the inclination is to say, “no, we don't do that.”
Rudy: Right, yeah, like you said, that's often an inclination. And this is what I also think is important in terms of, again, kind of the cross neurotype. Alyssa Hillary is the one who kind of does a work on that, also talks about part of it is because we don't have the narratives or stories of neurodivergent people, and so we just assume through a certain lens.
And so I think one, like, that's what I'm thankful for, like, this podcast in terms of the amount of people you interview, because it allows people to kind of [00:17:00] hear from different perspectives, because I think, again, part of that is to realize, like, that there are things that we don't know, and to listen to others, right?
And so, in terms of, for my own work, then, with neurodivergent Latinxs, is there's a way in which it's letting us know a kind of different perspective and the need to kind of be open to that, right? And I think that's why I can think about accessibility as really more of a process is helpful than as an outcome.
Ian: Yeah. And this is this is the difficulty that we run into in the church is that most people are looking for accessibility as an outcome, right? They want to be an accessible church, whatever that means. And particularly around autistic inclusion in the church, that's a much more difficult question, right?
Because it looks different. But what people most often want, and I'm not judging anyone for this, but what people most often want is a checklist of things that they can do for their church so that they can consider that tackled and be an inclusive church. And that's the, that's the end [00:18:00] state. And it's more a process of negotiation, I think, of, of balancing the different needs of people that you have in the congregation, because you can't—you can't make a space that is inclusive to everyone, that just doesn't, that just doesn't exist.
Which is sort of maybe a good segue to my second question, which is, again, going back to your work, which is obviously academic, but it's geared towards ethics, right? And so I wondered if you might share some of the ways that you think neurodivergence specifically, not to, not to erase, being Latinx, but to talk about neurodivergence specifically, since this is an autism and theology podcast, and how concerns around neurodivergence and ethical concerns around neurodivergence can influence our practice of Christianity and being Christian community.

Rudy: Yeah, so, no, thank you. I mean, there's several ways, [00:19:00] right, that it influences. One of the things that I will also say is that, is the need to kind of neurodiversify our prophetic imagination, right? And so the prophetic imagination often includes both kind of, if we think of Walter Brueggemann’s, right, the kind of denunciation, the kind of critique, and then kind of energizing of seeing kind of another alternative.
And so one of the ways is, I think, it should influence our public witness right of kind of critiquing those things that are not fully of God within our society and then offering kind of alternative spaces. And again, in terms of that practice, right? Is that I think right now there's a heightened understanding of different challenges for minoritized communities and for others.
And so the need to remember about how those intersections happen. So I think that's one of the ways that definitely influences. And then the other one in terms of the kind of energizing is kind of seeing the alternative way [00:20:00] things can be. And this is where I think churches, particularly again, in the current circumstances and situation where now is needed more than ever for the church to be a witness of how we should be as a community, how we should engage with one another.
And then for me, in terms of, like you said, the Christian practices, there's, there's so many ways that then that can be incorporated, right? I'm thinking of other works people have done in terms of including more neurodivergent leadership, which then has a different way of having to look at leadership or the work I know others have done in terms of, of the liturgy and making that a kind of sensory space for all.
And so, Neurodivergency influences our practice both as a public witness, but then how we then are living together as a community, um, in trying to transform both the church and society towards the kingdom of God.
Ian: I often, in seminary, we, we read some of Verna Dozier's, The Dream of God, [00:21:00] right? And that, that idea of, of there does exist for us an image of what the ideal looks like.
And I think you're right that there's a, that there's a real, a very real intangible benefit to holding that up, that we know what kind of communities we are meant to be, at least in theory, right? Now, navigating the specifics is a lot more complicated. And can be really difficult.
I don't want to make light of those concerns, right? Living in community is always messy. And, and there's, there's no way to make everyone perfectly happy. And yet, that's what God imagines for us. That's what God wants for us. And so this idea that that's what we should continually be striving for, um, I think is really important.
And I think is something that we, yeah. Need to offer to the world, because I [00:22:00] think you're right. It's necessary.
Rudy: Yes. And another way in terms of thinking about this is that we need to kind of comprehensive view of how to engage with that, right? That is both the kind of interpersonal level, right? How we engage with one another at church, or even during coffee hour and how we engage with others in our workplace as part of our witness to then also thinking about the policies and procedures, right?
Like, for example, the processes of formation. Are they, kind of more inclusive, or are they very kind of almost anti-forms of disability or what are the kind of policies within the church and then other ones about kind of who's included and so I think one is to know and also sorry and also kind of our theologies and kind of cultural representations, right?
Like, how are we sharing forth the love of God? And showing that within particular communities and [00:23:00] context. And so one is, I know, oftentimes, particularly, this is as a liberative ethicist, for me ethics is very much geared towards praxis, which is reflective action for social transformation. And oftentimes people then think of that as, you know, only one type of thing, maybe protest or something, but to realize that's actually a kind of a way of life and how you engage with all facets of yourself and society and then within the church and to know that I think we're all called to different things, right?
For some people, being teachers or talking about doing podcasts or doing academic study, but then also ministers, but then also lay folk, right? And then going back to, as you said, the Verna Dozier, the dream of God, right? That there's ways in which we're in acting and engaging and bringing forth God's dream for humanity.
And so once know that, whether big or small, there's so many ways that we [00:24:00] can kind of, get closer to where God wants us as a people.
Ian: Yeah, and I really love that you know bringing in Brueggemann and thinking about the prophetic imagination because I have recently been reading a lot of Heschel and reading a lot of the prophets and thinking about prophets as sort of exemplifying and incarnating divine pathos, right?
This idea that the prophets are absolutely unwilling to stand for injustice anywhere. And that's that sort of protest aspect that you talked about, which I think is really important, but most often I think that's what we gravitate when we, towards when we think of the prophetic is that protest that, that saying this injustice will not stand.
And I’m not saying that's unimportant by any stretch of the imagination, but it's not the only aspect of being prophetic. And some of it is, like you say, lifting [00:25:00] up that, um, that idea that we can be striving toward that idea of Christian hope that we say, this is, this is possible. It's not easy, but we know that it's possible because in God, all things are possible.
And so this is what we need to be towards, towards true justice. And true inclusion and incorporation into the Body so that we're not, we don't have to have, you know, we may not be able to create a space that's accessible for everyone, but we don't have to have disabled spaces and abled spaces. We don't have to have white spaces and Latinx spaces, right?
That we can imagine a way of act—of really truly incorporating people.
Rudy: Yes, I mean, I just think it's helpful with the spaces. The one thing I'll say with that is I have a slightly different thing in terms of, that I feel that there's need to have both spaces in terms of, there's a need to have are kind of more general spaces being inclusive to all.
And then also sometimes [00:26:00] certain communities need spaces that are more geared towards them. It doesn't mean they have to be exclude excluded to others, but one that is central for them.
Ian: No, and that's absolutely fair. And I don't mean, I don't mean the elimination of those sorts of spaces, right? Because I don't mean to say that every space should be for everyone because that, and the way that that works out in practice is the majority culture running roughshod over the minority culture
But as, in Christian community, even though we can't necessarily, we're not going to create a space that is truly everyone's space. That what we're striving towards and what we're imagining is a space that isn't exclusive of people, unless they decide, you know what, this community is more my style or has my more my worship, that sort of thing.
That we're, we're not creating spaces that are inclusive of everyone inherently, but we're [00:27:00] creating spaces that are not inimical to anyone, that are not antagonistic towards anyone based on identity. Or at least that's what we can strive toward, right?
Rudy: Right. No, no, no, that's true. And I think one of the things too, that often can be a kind of hindrance is either forms of, kind of, moral purity or more perfectionism.
And what I mean by that one is the moral purity is sometimes the thing, like, I can’t—I've arrived and there's not anything I could do wrong, right? I think that can often be a hurdle for people. Um, and the other one about the perfectionism is that oftentimes because, like, right, striving, like, striving is something is very much kind of dynamic and you're you're moving towards something, but it's not necessarily fully arriving.
And I think if you have that orientation, you, you can be okay with saying like, it's not going to be perfect, right? Like, it's not, I'm going to learn things. We're going to learn things. Like you said, it's also relational, right? That it’s not going back to, it's not just a checklist, [00:28:00] but it's how we engage with one another and who's there in the, in the community.
And I think Sometimes we can have the kind of all or nothing that needs to have to be all perfect, and so we don't want to do it. But it's like, no, you have to continue to, to strive, right. And be empowered by God to, to do it.
Ian: Yeah. And it, and it does, I mean, it, it takes asking those questions over and over again in what are, what are the ways in which we are truly open to people who don't look like us, who don't act like us, who, who don't come from the same cultural background as us, who aren't able bodied like us, you know, and, and the answers to those questions are never easy, right, if we're honest.
Because no, like you say, there is no community, at least that I'm aware of, that really, truly has achieved that, right? But it is something that we're meant to strive towards and to, I think, interrogate about ourselves. Like, what are the ways [00:29:00] in which we could be more accepting, more inclusive, more willing to incorporate people who are different?
Rudy: Yes, no, I think that's 100 percent is very true. And it reminds me of the Latino social artist, Miguel de la Torre.
One of the questions he kind of always asks is, “why do you engage with the action that you do,” right? “Is it because you think something will necessarily happen,” right? So if we're thinking about kind of sometimes people get burnt out because they go headlong and wanting to see something change, but realizing some of this work is generational.
And then he often says, “No, you—one way,” and this I fully agree with, is that, “you engage in the action because it's how it defines you as a person, as a person of faith,” right? That we engage in this, not because it will somehow be, finally arrive, but it defines who we are, right, as Christians as followers of Christ as following God's dream, [00:30:00] right?
Like it defines who we are. And that's why we act even if, you know, it may be, we're able to be very much have processes, you know, able to have accessibility. And then some will say, “Oh, this wasn't accessible because of this.” And rather than like, Oh, to be like, “okay,” or you can still be like, “ugh.” but then the next thing is like, “All right, let's keep moving and to know that it's that kind of the striving for and the action kind of defines who we are as Christians as the reason for it,” even if, you know, forms of accessibility within a certain denomination or church is going to take years to do, but that we engage in the action because it defines us as who we are.
Ian: I love that framing because my background in ethics is in virtue ethics. Right? And I don't mean to be all vomiting virtue ethics all over the place here. But the idea that we are what we habitually do right?
The only way to be an [00:31:00] inclusive community is to regularly work at including people who are not like us, right? Who don't come from the same background. So it is one thing to say this is a welcoming community. But if you if you don't engage in that practice, then those muscles atrophy, right? And every Christian community wants to say that they're welcoming, but the only way to be welcoming is to continue to welcome.
The only way to be inclusive is to continue to include. And once you, once you think that it's settled, once you think that it's solved, then you're not doing that anymore. And you're accepting of the people who are here, you're welcoming the people who are here, but that's just not the same. And so it's something that it's something that demands work of us.
So, that's not exactly what you said, but it's my framework for understanding it, I guess.
Rudy: you know, no, I know. I appreciate that. I mean, I think [00:32:00] that, there's a good way in terms of right thinking of, you know, for me to save kind of the justice that is of the action for justice is kind of defining who we are.
And like you said, like, I think the need to kind of engage in that, right? This kind of that action, right? That is it's good to say, right? Because I think oftentimes, the first step is that we kind of are aware, right? For some people, the first time they're being aware that is issues of accessibility, or in this case, think of race and disability justice as being interconnected.
And so that first step is kind of awareness, but then it's to continually engage, right? And know that God is with us as we are doing that action and then also to be uplifted by others in the community, right? Like, I think I know from you and then from others to see them engage in the work is always one of also then a reminder.
Okay. I can see glimpses of it. And so it also gives me the strength to continue to do [00:33:00] this holy work.
Ian: Yeah, that's really important. This idea of learning from each other, I think, is, is sort of key, which is—in that vein, if you could only share one or, or even just a few short things from your work, what is the one thing or the few things from your work that you wish more practitioners, more, faith communities, more neurodivergent allies knew, what would that be?
Rudy: So, if there was kind of a few things, or one thing I would say is that kind of race and disability justice are connected, right? So, for particularly for maybe more multicultural churches or others that the sense of that you can work on disability justice. But you also need to work on, or rather, what I mean by that is actually, oftentimes, there can be a focus on being more multicultural, um, or kind of racial justice, but that it also has to include [00:34:00] disability justice.
Otherwise, you are leaving out a whole swath of people. And then also for the Latino churches that we need to engage with disability, right? That disability justice and accessibility are part of our community and who we are. And then if we want the kind of abundant life that Christ has promised, we need to then address the ways in which those with disabilities when the community have been excluded.
So for one is just to realize that these are intertied. And I particularly think in the time that we're living in there, it's easy to kind of, de-link them? But if you de-link them, if they're unlinked, then you fully won't, right? If you're fully for racial justice, but don't do disability, you're leaving out a lot of folks and you also aren't fully addressing the issues.
And then also for those who engage in disability justice or disability ministry that you also have to engage with race because otherwise, if you focus just on the one, you'll leave it out. So, one is just the [00:35:00] kind of interconnectedness of the two is, I think, would be a central takeaway.
Ian: No, I think that's really important. And what's always interesting to me from a disability community or from the autistic community in particular is that autistics tend to be very concerned about that, right? That if you're saying you're concerned about autistic people, but you're not concerned about other injustices, then that seems fake, or that seems disingenuous, right?
And I'm not saying that's not true of other communities. This is just the community that I'm most familiar with. But the idea that, that there is, there is no way to be sort of inclusive, or there is no way to be somewhat concerned about justice, right? That it's, you know, I don't want to be totalizing about this, but if you're concerned with justice, then you can't leave people out.
And I think that's [00:36:00] particularly important for faith communities because it is very easy for people to see faith communities as hypocritical. Especially in this day and age, and if you say that you're worried about injustice, then you need to be worried about injustice.
Rudy: No, yes. So, yes, I agree in terms of that, justice means justice for all and not just for a few.
And I'll say definitely at times there can be kind of that frustration at kind of what's seen as kind of hypocritical. And also, I also know, also the kind of, to realize people are going through a process in this discovery, right? Like, even, I must say, it was through kind of part of my work that I was able really to kind of stitch together being neurodivergent Chicano right?
Before they were 2 separate things and it was through engagement with the community through others that I was able really to kind of put them together. And so there's both of, I think that [00:37:00] kind of that frustration of it not happening and also realizing people are on a process, as well, in terms of personal journey.
So one is both I think institutionally is the key continue to echo that and to push that and then interpersonally realize that for some folks, it can take some time. And again, that's something to hold on to. But like you said, justice is justice for all.
Ian: Yeah, and I think that idea of maintaining those relationships are staying engaged with people of keeping connected and considering the individual and not necessarily making assumptions. Those are, I think, really, just really important sort of takeaways, at least for me, from this discussion and from your work.
Rudy: Yeah, no, thank you, I think this has been a great conversation. I've enjoyed it.
Ian: Likewise. Thank you so much, Rudy. And thank you to all of our listeners.
And if you have any questions, you can message us at autismtheology [00:38:00] on X or Instagram. Or you can send us an email at CAT. adn.ac.uk, even if it's just to say hi. We'd love to hear from you.
Zoe: Thank you for listening to the Autism and Theology podcast. If you have any questions for us or just want say hi. Please email us at cat at abdn. ac. uk or find us on Twitter at Autism [00:39:00] Theology.