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This week Jay chats with Larry D. Mass, a lifelong advocate and author and the first person to write about what eventually was known as AIDS.
Discussing issues of Mental Health, Substance Misuse and Recovery, and Drug Use & Policy with host Jay Shifman, Speaker, Storyteller, and Advocate.
Each week Jay chats with interesting guests as they seek to destroy stigma and advocate for honest, educational conversations that motivate positive change.
You can learn more at https://jay.campsite.bio/.
Choose Your Struggle has been streamed in over thirty-five countries and is available on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and wherever else you get your podcasts.
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*** Transcript is not edited for clarity.
You are listening to the, choose your struggle podcast, a member of the shameless podcast network. Hello, and welcome to the choose your struggle podcast. I'm your host, Jay Schiffman, on this show, I interview people with lived and learned experiences in the subjects of mental health, substance misuse, and recovery and drug use and policy.
But occasionally we talk about other topics as well on this week show I interview author and activist, Larry DMA, but first kid mental let's go
things ain't no, he's gonna go our way. Been with
you just, and some battles will be yesterday. Wait. When you begin choose just, and don't worry about what they say. Cause you can always win, win. You choose just, and you can bounce back. Come on in. Listen. Torun choose. Choose just, just Lu. Just. Hello, and welcome back to the choose struggle podcast. It's great to be back with you all before we get into this, week's show a couple of announcements.
The first, if you are following on social media, then you saw this. If you didn't or if you aren't, uh, very exciting news a couple months ago, I. Nominated, uh, my wonderful wife, Lauren and Sarah Laurel from S sisters for the Metro Philly power woman list, uh, which is 75 women from across, uh, Pennsylvania, not just Philadelphia who are change makers, who are doing awesome things in the community and both were accepted.
Both were, uh, Except is the wrong word, both made the cut. Um, and, and you can find that on social media, it's all over, uh, really, really proud of both Sarah and Lauren for, uh, for what they're doing. And, and clearly I'm not the only one. I mean, this is. You know, there are millions of, of women in this, in this town and across Pennsylvania, I'm sure they considered hundreds, if not thousands of people.
And it's really cool that both of them made it. So, um, just a huge props to Sarah and to Lauren. For all you're doing and for making that list. And speaking of Metro, uh, they are the ones that are doing the best of Philly competition. You can find a link in the show notes to vote for both Savage and myself in different categories.
Um, all of that instruction, isn't the show notes. Uh, please vote. It would meet a lot to me. Uh, also big news is that it is that time again for the birthday fundraiser. Now we're doing it something a little different this year. Uh, we last, or two years ago, we raised, uh, about $12,000 for drug policy Alliance, which is amazing.
Last summer, we raised about 8,000 for Savage, which is also amazing. And this summer we're doing something a little. Different. So on August 18th, Savage is hosting its first, uh, sort of quote unquote gala event. It's more of a party than a gala, but, uh, the goal is of this event, which is called the worth saving fundraiser.
Is, uh, it's a party at the Watts, uh, which is a warehouse, uh, sort of event space in here in Philly. Um, they are raising money to support the outreach efforts. Uh, the goal is $30,000 and, and, and that money goes towards medical supplies, syringes, HIV testing, food toiletries. All the stuff that we, we give out when we do, uh, fundraising.
So here's how you can help. If you're in Philly, you can buy a ticket. Obviously that's, that's the easiest thing to do. Also the, the specific fundraiser, what we're trying to do here is each board member, of course, which I, I am a member of this amazing board has been tasked with finding three sponsor. Uh, for this event and the sponsorship levels are 1000, 3000 and $5,000.
Uh, choose your struggle is going to do one. So we are looking for two other sponsors willing to jump on and you're gonna get some stuff in return. You're gonna get some tickets to the event. You're gonna get a bunch of, um, uh, Brand awareness, obviously it's gonna be all over everything. Um, and, and, and, you know, quite frankly, you know, and Sarah would say this, if she was here, you know, at this point, this money is so needed and so important that if you're like, you know, I want, uh, a Narcan training in exchange, or I want, uh, you know, whatever.
Um, we obviously will happily do that shit. Well, I'll come out. I'll train y'all I'll I'll I'll bring Sarah with me. Right. Um, so reach out that's that's what I'm asking this year for the fundraiser. If you are interested in a 1000, 3000 or 5,000 sponsorship, uh, level for this event for Savage, the worst saving fundraiser, uh, reach out, um, and we will chat.
I will give you all the information on how to make your payment and what we're gonna get you in return. Um, but, but you, you need to reach out. You gotta talk to me. We'll we'll work this out. So if you're interested, Please email me@jayjjschiffman.com, J a Y S H I F M a n.com. You can also go to either J schiffman.com or choose your struggle.com and click the contact me page.
Um, this information's all in the show notes, uh, but, but please reach out. It would mean a lot to me, it would mean a lot to Savage. Um, if we can get some sponsorship from you. To make this event happen because, uh, 30,000, it's not really that much. It really isn't, but it means the world to this work. So please reach out.
All right. This week's episode, it's a conversation with an absolute legend. His name is Larry DMAs. And if some of you know that name it's because he is pretty famous in the advocacy. He's been a writer and an advocate around mostly, uh, issues, including, um, HIV and, uh, the aids epidemic. Uh, he's been an, an, a gay activist for decades, uh, an activist for the Jewish community.
He is credited as writing the first report. On what eventually became known as aids. It wasn't even known as aids at that time. It was, he was the first one to, to write about this back in early, early, early eighties might be, it might have even been 79. Um, He is just one of those guys where you go. Yes, I like does it exactly fit this?
Show's um, the topics of this show? No, it doesn't. I don't care. When I had someone reach out and say, Larry would be interested to coming on coming on your show. I said, Exact yes. Now, today let's make this happen. So, um, we did have, uh, some connectivity issues, uh, and you'll hear it on this interview at times.
It might sound a little disjointed. You're like, wait, where did that answer come from? It's because we had to stop in the middle and reconnect. And then I had to just kind of go pick it up from where you were. So if you're like, wait, where did that answer come from? Or it seems like a weird jump from this to that.
It means we had to cut something out. Um, I, I can tell you, uh, that even with the sound issues, even with the connectivity issues, this is still an incredible conversation. Uh, at one point a phone rings in the background. I mean, we were working with what we had here to make this happen. Uh, but it was so incredible to get to chat with Larry.
I will give you a heads up, uh, this show. It's always explicit, but I, I, I never give the heads up except for, in the moments of sexually explicit, uh, topics, because I know some of you do listen with your kids and talking about, um, you know, saying bad words is, is one thing, but actually talking about some of these topics, uh, explicitly as others.
So there is sexually explicit conversations in this. Mostly obviously talking about aids. Uh, but without further ado, please enjoy this conversation with the incredible Larry DMAs. Thank you for supporting the show here at choose your struggle. We rely on all of y'all to help us end stigma and promote honest and.
Fact based education around mental health, substance misuse, and recovery and drug use and policy. And there's so many ways to engage with our work from our podcast to our storytelling events, to bringing me in, to speak to your company, your school or your organization, you can also support us on Patreon for as little as $3 and 40 cents a month.
And we're so appreciative. This work is grueling at times and your support goes a long way to helping us keep going. So find us@chooseyourstruggledotcomandfindmeatjschiffman.com. And thank you. Thank you for being a part of the choose your struggle family. Choose your struggle. Choose your struggle.
Choose your, if you're liking the show, please consider leaving us a review. If you're listening on apple, you can leave a review right on your player for everybody else. Check out the link in the show notes. Welcome to the choose your struggle podcast. It is my absolute honor to introduce a guest today that is going to talk about a topic that I am not covered on this show.
And that is, uh, the HIV tragedy in the, in the early, uh, while eighties and in nineties. And also just the, the, the, the fantastic and really interesting history of the gay community here in the United States. But not only that is, is. My my guest day, Larry mass has such a rich history in the work that he's done in this country and, and the just fantastic impact he's had on the American landscape.
So without further ado, Larry, thank you so much for being here. Wow. Thank you, Jay. Um, I'm really honored and very, very pleased. I, I have a very strong, uh, feeling of identification with you, uh, in terms of your story. Uh, cause I think there's a lot of similarities of my own story. Yeah. You know, it's a funny, what we can start right there is that we do have a lot of, of crossover because you've led a very rich and interesting life that I, I think it's not too forward to say has been marked by some trauma.
Would you agree with that? Oh, yes. Yes. And I think that, you know, I mean, I was reading about your history with bipolar illness and, you know, your, your struggle with, uh, struggles with, with drug use and, um, then entering in recovery. And that's kind of my own tr trajectory. I, uh, basically was, uh, Rather overwhelmed in my life by the fact that I always was interested in a lot of different things.
And I had different identities, I wore different hats and I just didn't know how to put it all together and, and make it work. And, uh, eventually became overwhelmed. I was, uh, Born and raised, uh, Jewish and queer in Macon, Georgia in the mid, uh, 1940s in 1946 of 75. Sure. To be 76 and, uh, you know, uh, growing up with these two minority identities, uh, one of which, uh, was surrounded by hostility that, of being Jewish, even though there was actually a community there.
And, um, You know, the other one was not even, uh, there was no basis for any understanding of who we were and how we were as being gay. And, um, that was something that just was not discussed, uh, uh, publicly at all. And, um, so that was something I had to struggle with, uh, like, like all gay people of the, of those times in complete isolation.
um, and then, you know, uh, eventually I kind of, uh, you know, made it through fumbled along and, um, I, uh, I found that I, I had two callings. Um, I wanted to be a physician. I wanted to work in medicine and healthcare. I particularly attracted to. Issues of mental health. I didn't quite know how that was gonna play out.
And, uh, the other thing was writing eventually ended up with a major depressive episode. Uh, this was, uh, in the first couple of years of, of the aids, uh, what became the aids epidemic? Um, You know, I, uh, I ended up, uh, in the flight deck at St. Vincent's hospital here, uh, with a major depressive episode. And, um, you know, I saw it then as a kind of existential crisis, I just could not put all these different things in my life together in a way that, that made them work.
When I, I said that I came to new. And, um, the, the, the work that I found, uh, the niche that I found for myself was in the fledgling world of addiction, medicine, addiction medicine is, was not, it had, didn't have that name. It didn't have a specialty status in those days. Um, that's a, it's, it's a very young feel still it's.
Now it's under the auspices of preventive. And, uh, you know, I, uh, this world of addicts and addiction was very marginally, acknowledged and treated on the fringes of healthcare. They were not really adequate. Uh, recognition of addiction as a, as a big area of, of interest and, and, and need and concern. Uh, during that time and psychiatry kind of reluctantly assumed the mantle of dealing with.
Addiction. It never was very good at it. It never liked it. And, um, so there was this real need for, uh, the, the whole field to evolve, which is what's happening. I, I, I was, I was in the first group of physicians eventually to become, uh, get my board certification such as it existed. Uh, the American society of addiction medicine.
And, um, but basically what I was doing was what, what I called community medicine. Dealing with very marginal people who did not have adequate healthcare and who, you know, didn't know where to go or what to do. And we didn't really have resources for them. And, uh, I myself was, uh, spiraling into my own, uh, problems with addiction, primarily alcohol and marijuana.
And, um, so I found myself practicing community medicine. As I called it, uh, dealing with addicts prostitutes, uh, the gay community, the gay community was, was actually a little. Uh, like the drug addict community. They had no, uh, resources. They had no recognition, no civil liberties. They were illegal. And we were illegal at multiple levels.
So it was just a big, uh, stew of ingredients. And, um, that found me in the spring of 1983. On the flight deck at St. Vincent's hospital. You're you moved to New York for, for the medical opportunity, but was the, was the opportunity to be around. That's not why I, I didn't move it move so much. Oh, so then, so tell me about it.
I moved to New York primarily because I felt a of money with New York than with Boston. Um, in terms of trying to be live an openly gay life, there were certainly gay people in a gay community in Boston, but Boston is a, it's a very distinguished, remarkable city with, you know, all kinds of attributes and a, an extraordinary, uh, singular history and, uh, of, of liberalism and all these wonderful things.
But it is also a kind of, uh, it's a small provincial. Town compared to New York. And, um, it, it, it, there was in terms of being gay there. It was, I, I I've described it in my book as a grim and homophobic. It was a, you know, I think, you know, a lot of gay people in, in that time and place, if they had their choice, if they had the option, they would.
Preferentially to New York or San Francisco or places where gay life was most evolved. So that was a big, big factor for me. Um, that was the main, I, I, I really felt at home in New York in a way that, uh, you know, it just was not gonna happen in Boston. It never did. And it wouldn't so. That was your, your, your decision to move to New York.
And, and I know that from reading, uh, your work and in your bio, you did quickly develop a pretty strong community. There is that right. There was a, a, a, a strong, still fledgling activist community that I wanted to be part of. They had a couple of, uh, significant publications that I got involved with right away.
I already, uh, had, um, You know, I already wanted to be involved in the gay movement. Uh, I wanted to write, I wanted to be an activist. My very first piece that I published was speak piece that I ended up, uh, in gay community news in Boston. so, I mean, a lot of, a lot of this work groundwork was done during my years of medical training and living in Boston.
Um, once I got to New York, then I really wanted to, uh, move forward with all this. And I did, and I found myself writing for this fledgling gay newspaper, uh, called the New York. Native was just a, a group of us who put this thing together and. I found myself writing around cultural issues about psychiatry, about sex research, about film, about music and opera and health.
Uh, I was very interested in gay health issues. Uh, you know, they were, uh, STD rates were off the charts in, in, in gay men. And, um, you know, uh, there was a lot of stigma around that, a lot of ignorance, and I found myself writing about gay health and, um, no physician, actually. I, I think again, I, uh, there, there physicians had written.
Articles, uh, occasionally here and there, uh, as, and they were open to gay physicians, but no one had ever written on a regular basis. No gay physician had ever written on a regular basis in press. So I found myself doing that and very shortly. So this is 19 79 80. The first report started coming in of the epidemic that would, uh, year and a half later become known as aids.
And I found myself doing this initial reporting and being initially involved and, uh, fairly quickly I became, uh, involved in the, in the, uh, service and activist initiatives around aids. I became one of the co-founders of gay men's health crisis. Which, uh, was the, you know, was the Fe remains in many ways, the premier aids information and service organization.
A lot of this was, uh, the, the aids work, especially, but also my cultural work, my literary work, uh, my, my work as a writer, uh, was very much under the influence of, uh, one of my friends in New York, who I had met several years earlier through a network of, of gay friends, Larry Kram. The great gay as an aids activist.
And I, I, you know, he and I became very close and, uh, you know, we worked together in this early period on aids and, uh, gay men's health crisis. So it was quite a whirlwind. And, uh, you know, I wrote something like 23 articles for the gay press on the epidemic as it was unfolding. And, um, I had a lot of involvement with GMHC and then.
Ended up, as I say, on the flight deck at St. Vincent's, um, there's a character based on me and Larry's play the normal heart. It's a composite character. It's not really me. This is not, you know, he's not a physician, you know, but he ends up on the flight deck at St. Vincent's. just like I did. I think, you know, right now, especially in my community, the harm reduction community, you know, Larry Kramer's name is, is known, um, for a lot of his work.
And I know that you have, uh, you, you worked with him as, as during this period, he went on to start act up and, and all of that, right. and, and you wrote a, a book on, on Larry Kramer, right? Or, or com compiled a book would be a better way to say it. Yes. Yes. I, it's a book called we must love one another or die the life and legacies of Larry Kramer.
And, um, it's, uh, got, you know, biographical pieces on him, but a lot of, uh, literary pieces and medical and health pieces. Uh, it's got a whole range of input from a wide variety of, uh, persons of interest. There's a piece in there by Anthony Fauci, Dr. Anthony Fauci, who had a long, complicated, very fraught relationship with Larry and act up and the rest of us.
And I think in there as he has otherwise done publicly, he refers to, um, The history of healthcare in, in, um, in America as, before Larry and after Larry , Larry cut a huge swath and the achievements of him and act up can only be in terms of their, their impact on health and healthcare can only be described as monument.
Uh, you know, you couldn't begin to say how extraordinary, uh, this influence was and, and how, um, you know, I mean, just at the very simple level, you know, that aids is now became a treatable disease with these antivirals. Well, there had never been, uh, antiviral treatment prior to that. There was, uh, acyclovir for, um, herpes.
Uh, that was kind of chronic treatment. And there was, um, you know, there were vaccines for things like polio, but there had never been a successful treatment for an otherwise fatal illness caused by a virus. This is as monumental as monumental gets and that all that happened as a result of all this input and involvement and activism from act up.
And under Larry's leadership. Of course there were many, many people involved and, you know, there was a lot that, that, um, you know, went into that mix, but, and biomedical pharmaceutical research, you know, was, you know, had been evolving and this brought it all to a head. So, but still, uh, Larry and act up deserve this level of, uh, Acknowledgement for what they did.
And there never was anything like act up. I mean, do you know of any sort of major healthcare activist initiatives that ever took place? I mean, there were, there were lobbyists, there were some protestors, there was litigation, things like that, but not a major movement for healthcare access and progress and all that is completely unprecedented.
And, and, and I would love to know just, just from your, your memory. When you were early on reporting on, on what would become aids, the aids epidemic, I should say. And then seeing, you know, and participating in this sort of, um, uh, you know, protest movement really was isn't really the full personification of what it is, but where, what did this feel like as you saw people that you knew and loved and cared about dying?
For during an epidemic that quite frankly, early on, uh, too many people simply did not care about. Well, that's an understatement. Yeah. I mean, it was a, you know, we had no civil liberties protections of any kind. We, we had no, uh, gay marriage was like science fiction. I mean, I, I would never have dreamed in a million years.
It's just a thing would happen anymore than, you know, you might have been told, you know, 40, 50 years ago, someday we're gonna have a black president. It's just not something you. Imagine from the way, the way things were. So it was a, it was a total crisis. And, um, you know, uh, it's just amazing that, you know, uh, things were able to evolve as they did.
Uh, wouldn't call it a happy ending, but, uh, you know, uh, huge development. , you know, what, what, yeah. What was it like? And, and maybe you can tell me that this wasn't the case, but I have to imagine there was some fear on your end that, that this was something that you could contract. Right. I mean, there was so little knowledge about, oh, absolutely.
We didn't. We, yeah, we didn't know for sure that it was a single agent, sexually transmitted disease, a whole business, about a lot of different theories of, uh, you know, What the cause was the cause HIV was not fully established until late 1983. So it was three to four years already into the epidemic before the cause was, was certain.
So that meant that all of those who, all of us who were sexually active, um, Had been at risk. We'd all Al virtually all of us had had, you know, some high risk activity. And so it was sort of a, a, a luck, the throw of the dice, the luck, you know, uh, as to who got it and who didn't. I, uh, it was, you know, I lived with that anxiety and uncertainty for six years before.
Testing became routinely available. And I was just amazed to learn that I was negative. And, uh, I mean, I, I know that I had sex with many, uh, people in high risk situations. And, um, you know, I didn't, I, at that, during that period, I was for whatever reason of my own progress as a gay man and, you know, uh, my own kind of change over time, I was not having.
Receptive anal and unprotected, receptive anal intercourse. I was not getting fucked very often. Uh, I was kind of like in the opposite role, which is also moderate risk, not highest risk, but moderate risk of unprotected inserted intercourse, fucking so, um, that could have been a factor, uh, and that was just, you know, it wasn't.
It just the way things were were the way I was, I was, and I was changing. It was not like a, a deliberate change of sexual behaviors in the interests of safer sex. That's something that would, that would, uh, become more, uh, clear as, as, as, as a strategy for everybody over time. But. Not initially was cause we, we just didn't know.
There was a lot of uncertainty about, about whether it was a single agent. Or whether it was multiple agents or other factors, a lot of things had to be ruled out. So this business of the cause of aids is kind of a serious issue, uh, in the history of aids. And, um, it ended in this catastrophe, but, uh, so you, you don't hear too much from denials now.
They're still out there. There are still people you could find who is that whole HIV. Single Asian business was just a, a, a hoax, you know, a kind of go. Thing. That's fascinating. I did not know about that. Yeah. Uh, but before we continue this conversation, if you wouldn't mind pausing and shouting out where people can find you online, where they can buy your books, all that kind of stuff.
My name is Lawrence D mass, Dr. Lawrence, D mass MD or Dr. Larry mass or Dr. Lawrence DMAs. What I it's got, you know, if you go online and put those things in a number of things will come up, maybe the easiest. Way to sort of get an overview of me in the current period is via my website, which is still under construction.
Lawrence D mass.com. Hey all, it's Jay, your host. I'm so excited to tell you about my merch partner T public T public is the best site for independent creators. And it's why you can find all of choose your struggles merch on their site. Look, I know I do a lot of things. Well, I create and host this show. I run this company, but one thing I'm not good at is graphic design, but that's okay.
Because T Publix's design tool is so easy to use that even guys like me can use it to success. In fact, it's so easy to use that I've uploaded designs that have nothing to do with choose your struggle, just because I wanna see them on t-shirts hoodies tank, tops, masks, and so much more. Right now, if you check out my tea public site, you can find designs from choose your struggle presents, made it season one, stay Savage, choose your struggle.
Anti-stigma campaigns. More so to find all of my merch, go to choose your struggle.com and click on the shop page, which will take you to my tea public store in tee public. Thank you for making it so damn easy.
Support us on Patreon. Check us out at patreon.com/choose your struggle or at the link in your show notes. Ronald Reagan had a press spokesperson, uh, speaks. Ron speaks, Rob speaks. I can't remember. Um, and you know, uh, and it was six years into the aids epidemic before, um, uh, Regan mentioned the word aids.
He was, um, uh, it, it didn't happen until rock Hudson. The big, the big change in, in communicating with the public came when rock Hudson, it was, it finally was publicly released that he had aids said not until the very, very end. Uh, did he. That to be made public. See, in those days, if you, if you said somebody's gay or somebody has aids, you could get, you know, seriously sued and, you know, uh, prosecuted for libel.
You couldn't. I mean, even Larry who was, you know, really going after, uh, ed co and, and Ronald Reagan tooth and. Was the, the, the characters in his play, uh, the normal heart are, are fictionalized they're fictionalized names. And, um, you know, you, you, you still couldn't really say, well, this one is just a, a, a line closet case.
This one is, you know, like, like ed Kotch and, and all this kind of stuff. So, anyway, so this, this, if you, you can, Rob governor Regan, Rob speaks. Iran speaks, press conference. You should key into that. So th. This was the first press conference that Reagan and his staff ever held on aids. And they spent the whole time laughing at these emaciated sort of Auschwitz, skeleton gay men who were coming to testify that they needed help.
And that they were dying and that they hoped more would be done about aids. They were being laughed at. You can hear the laughter go online and, and get, pick out the express conference. There's there was like a, a joke, you know, these, these gay men, the joke was that multiple levels joke was like, who are these people who were fucking themselves like crazy fucking themselves to death?
Who totally deserved what happened to them? That's the only way it can be, cuz if they're coming to us now for help and I mean, The, uh, the, the extent of the homophobia that was, you know, routine and ubiquitous that we had to live with. It's very, very difficult to imagine, but, but that little press conference is something will give you a, a sense of a home.
Oh, so what. You, you have had a lot of impact in, in, you know, the gay community, but you've also written extensively on Jewish matters, which I found fascinating, especially around, uh Vogner, which was, you know, a really interesting topic. What, what was it that made you interested in writing about Vogner?
Well, I was an opera person, you know, that was kind of my entree into, you know, in the, in the gay world. Maybe most people. Some their entry into adulthood occurs via various venues of little collectives of friends or individuals, or maybe theater or movies or sports or something like that in the gay world.
Uh, One of the ways of kind of finding society in gay life was via the opera world. I was totally smitten. There are a lot of gay people in opera that are, you know, opera people, opera, Queens, um, you know, and I, I was one of them. I loved everything about opera. I loved all the different composers. I loved, you know, it, it really was.
You. In many ways, the great love of my life within that, there was another great love of my life, who I thought of as that, which was composer, Ricard Vogner. I mean, Vogner is widely acknowledged to be one of the greatest composers who ever lived. That's that's not, uh, that's not. , you know, every, everybody accepts that he was very, very great composer and the experience of, I mean, there, there there's humor around Vogner being lengthy and ponderous and, you know, kind of overblown and all of that.
But I mean, otherwise regard for Wagner's greatness as composers is pretty much universal. Well, I didn't, uh, You know, and I just accepted that. I mean, we, we knew about Hitler and Nazis and we knew about that Bogner was an antis semi, but you know, every, these are problems that plague a lot of famous people in the past.
There's a lot of antisemitism among other composers. And, you know, I mean, so basically what, when I. Came of age in the world of opera, there was a kind of understanding about Vogner that basically everybody endorsed bad man. Great art. and everybody endorsed that and dealt with Foner on that basis. I didn't feel like alone.
I mean, it, nobody was ha liked his antisemitism. Nobody liked the fact that, that he was embraced, uh, as, as no one ever has been before by, by a leading, uh, dictator, an AutoCAT Hitler and, and the Bogner family. This is. Horrible stuff, but everybody seemed to acknowledge that. So I don't know. I just didn't really, uh, I just went, went along with my love for Vogner.
I mean, I, I, you know, but I, I was, you know, from my upbringing, I think I had really repressed my Jewishness. I did an enormous amount of work. Coming to grips with being gay only to discover at the end of that, that I had never done comparable work with being Jewish. That that identity was just totally relegated.
So, um, what happened was, uh, in that period, when I moved to New York and I got involved with these activists and the gay community, I met this other gay Jewish writer. A tuits a tuits is widely recognized as a legendary. Pioneer of gay liberation. He's a, he's a, he was just a wonderful, special person. He, his, he died recently in January, his auto press on him.
Um, you know, uh, we were together 40 years, but when I first met him, um, I, I brought him back to the apartment and there were five pictures of ner on my living room. He had a terrific Jewish, standup comic sense of humor. He had, he didn't hate anybody had no real malice towards anybody, including Vogner. He liked Vogner every who doesn't like certain Vogner music in tunes.
And, you know, he had no, no specialist degree, Southeast five pictures of Bob along said, he said, wow. He said, why don't you add another one of Anita Bryant eating an orange. Basically what he was just observing as a kind of self-conscious Jewish person. He wasn't, he wasn't religious. He wasn't, you know, well, he was just observing that there was a, seemed a little odd for somebody who, you know, for a Jewish person to so embrace this, you know, ferocious anti-Semite you could understand like, like in the music and, and all of that, but you know, five pictures of this person on the living room wall.
What, what is that? You know, that at that. At that very moment, I was falling in love with a, and, um, that facilitated an ability of me to kind of perceive things that I had never perceived before I had never been in love or really deeply loved another. That was something that was, you never had a Jewish lover.
And, um, that was a, uh, my first lover was a priest . Um, uh, so, you know, I, um, falling in love with Aney opened my eyes to, um, sort of the whole. It the whole world of Jews and Jewishness and gave me an awareness and a consciousness of myself and other Jews and, and Jewishness in the world that I had never had before.
It was, it was the full equivalent of trying to come out as. You know, where you start out from this place of a lot of self hatred, a lot of ignorance, a lot of fear, a lot of, you know, uh, uh, uh, confusion. And you start to take steps to come to grips with who you really are and how people see you and how to navigate in the world.
And that's what I learned to do. You know, with, uh, VMI relationship with Arnie. And so I'm, I'm an intellectual. And my interest in opera was always rather deep. Uh, I always had, uh, complex interests in, in, in cultural things. And, um, I, you know, I still kind of was, uh Vogner I, but I would go there with this new consciousness and awareness.
I would go to performances and operas and I would observe. Other Vogner rights and opera people and read reviews and read books. And I realized that this phenomenon of a kind of. Suppression of self of what I'm calling Jewish, internalized antisemitism was something that you actually see a lot of, uh, out there.
Uh, just as gay people can be self hating or, you know, anybody from any minority blacks could be self hating because they've internalized prejudice. It's definitely the case with Jews and that's still very much an ongoing issue. We can be self-hating and self negating in ways that, you know, it's we don't even think about this.
And I had a window on this in the world of opera. And I've been writing about it for, you know, 40 years. Really interesting. I hope, uh, that someone, someone listening goes and checks out that, that work before we end, what's your next project? What should we keep an eye out for? Um, Well, the main thing I'm doing like a ARN passed away in, uh, in January and our papers are collected by the New York public library.
So over the I'm, I'm gonna be 76 in a, in a few weeks. Um, so a lot of what I'm doing is kind of, um, organizing our papers, our memorabilia at. Placement in various, uh, institutions. I don't have a new major writing project. Most of the, most of the things around my writing that I'm doing are, uh, around this, uh, recent book, the sequel to confession of Jewish fog grant on the future of agism.
And I will do podcasts. I'll do interviews. I'll do you know, uh, uh, whatever I can to promote this. Well, I'm sorry for, for your loss. Uh, it sounds like you had a wonderful relationship for a long time. Thank you, Jay. Yes, indeed. And, and before we wrap up, if you wouldn't mind, one more time telling people where they can find you online, where they can check out your books, all that kind of stuff.
Okay. So the B the best thing, uh, you know, I've written five books and it, it, there's, all this stuff is on my website. Lawrence D mass.com. So we always finish with the same two questions. The first of which is, you know, you do so much incredible writing and activism, but what do you do for self care? What works for you?
well, it used to be, uh, sex and food. Uh, so I, those I'm in four different fellowships and I do a lot of work around both of those. So. A lot. I, I would say that it increasingly became about doing service and about just living life in the real world and doing ordinary things. And, um, you know, I, I, I go to the gym.
I, um, but I basically, despite myself and against my, my, uh, hard wiring, I am, uh, becoming, uh, evermore a good. What a great answer. Thank you. uh, so the final question we always finish with is we spent the, the, the last, you know, almost hour hearing why you're amazing why we should check out all of your written work and all of that, but this is your chance to shout out some people that you follow and other people that we may not be aware of, that you really appreciate.
Woo boy, that's a tough one. Um, well, I'm a big champion of Larry Kramer. I wrote that book and I would urge people. It's a daunting project. It's off putting in a lot of ways, but I, I wish more people would read this massive two volume collection of his, the American people, which is, uh, uh, has, is just filled with important and good stuff.
Um, And I wish, uh, you know, in terms of the worlds of culture and music and opera, um, and Vogner, I , I hope that more people will read not only me, but, uh, within that, uh, one, one of the people that I got, uh, that I've had a very lengthy correspondence with and friendship with is GOTF fried Vogner. He's the great grandson of recard Vogner the composer.
And he is, uh, Very, we are very much on the same page about Bogner and Bogner has been, we are both outcasts and pariah from the world, the mainstream world of opera and music and bog Bogner, well wonderful answers. It has been an absolute pleasure getting to meet you and hear from you and learn from you.
Larry. Thank you so much for taking the time. Thank you, Jay. It's a wonderful show. It's a real pleasure to meet you. I'm just thrilled and honored to be here. Thank you. If you've been following the show for a while, you know, I'm a huge fan of Roadrunner, C B D. I used all of their products. Seriously. I run through a tub of their muscle gel every couple of weeks because I'm in my thirties and everything hurts.
Their balm is perfect for keeping my skin smooth and healthy, and I mix their CBD flour with every joint eye roll to give my high that perfect equilibrium I'm always looking for. And so to change your life, With road runner C's products, go to road runner cbd.com/ref/c. Again that's road runner cbd.com/ref ref slash Cy S and use the code Cy at check out for 10% off.
Trust me, you're gonna want to try this out. Check 'em out today. Choose this find us in social media. Check the link in your show notes or search for Jay Schiffman and choose your struggle on any social media platform. All right, we've come to the end of another, another episode of the choose your struggle podcast.
Thank you so much for tuning in. I hope you enjoyed this conversation with Larry DMAs. He is such a, uh, legend in, in the advocacy. World. It was an honor to chat with him. Um, you know, it was, it was definitely worth doing the work to, to make the, the audio issues we had, the connectivity issues work, um, because he's just, just, he's just done so much.
And, and, uh, it was just, I feel very lucky to have had the opportunity to chat with him and learn from him. So thank you to Larry and thank you all for tuning. We're gonna go into the cards. We're gonna use the train, your brain card deck from Dr. Jennifer sweeten. Um, and. There are the cards here. It is.
This is from the feel commerce set. It's called he go Meridian point. I guarantee I didn't say that. Right, but that's fine. The, he G go Meridian point is located in the soft spot, sometimes called the valley between the thumb and the index finger. Firmly massaging this soft spot with the opposite hand has been shown to almost immediately reduce blood flow to Amala amygdala.
Excuse me, which produces a calming experience. They feel calmer considered practicing this technique for a couple minutes. Every time you feel stressed. Uh, I will try that. Sure. Why not? Um, you know, there's a lot about the body, obviously that I don't understand. So, uh, if Dr. Jennifer sweeten says that works, then props that Dr.
Jennifer sweeten, all right, your good egg for today is gonna be a couple. Um, please reach out. You know, now that we are live with the, this year's birthday fundraiser, a little different than normal, um, if you're interested, please reach out. It would mean a lot to me, it would mean a lot to SAV. Check out the ad for tea public on my, uh, Instagram, uh, with thank you to, to Sarah Laurel, uh, as my wonderful model.
And, uh, that's it, those two, check out the check out tea, public, buy some merch. And, uh, if you're interested, reach out about the birthday fundraiser, but as always be vulnerable, show your empathy, spread your love and choose your struggle.