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Join me while I learn HTMX and talk at you about it
Twitter: @htmxlabs
So this is going to be something a little different today. And, thank you to listener Elora for the concept, and also for the idea just in general of more listener participation. If you are hearing this podcast and you'd like to, you know, have some input about what we could talk about on here, feel free to leave a review with a note in it or find me on Twitter and and send me a message or something like that. Whatever you kind of you know, whatever you want to hear about h t m x besides, obviously, we're going to keep doing all the attributes starting with the basics in season 1 and then go to season 2. But today is going to be a little bit different.
Lazarus:I'm gonna interview a robot about h t m x and just kind of see see where that goes. So, first off, why don't you introduce yourself?
SHILLBOT 2000:Sure. I'm Chat GPT, a language model. I'm here to help answer questions, provide information, and chat about a wide range of topics. What would you like to talk about today?
Lazarus:Yeah. So so we're gonna talk about, HTMX and kind of its its broader role and and also just some specifics. So first of all, what do you what do you know about HTMX?
SHILLBOT 2000:HTMLX is a web technology that allows you to enhance your HTML pages with attributes to add AJAX, CSS transitions, WebSockets, and server sent events directly in your HTML without writing much JavaScript. It's particularly useful for developers who want to create modern dynamic web applications while keeping their JavaScript footprint small. The idea is to extend HTML's capabilities, allowing it to handle dynamic content updates elegantly. This can make web development simpler and more efficient as you can achieve more interactive user experiences with less complex code. Do you have specific aspects of HTMLX you're interested in?
SHILLBOT 2000:Or are you looking at how it fits into the broader landscape of web development?
Lazarus:Yeah. Let's I mean, before we dig into some of the details, let's talk about the broader landscape of web development.
SHILLBOT 2000:Sure. Let's start with the broader perspective. HTMLX is part of a trend in web development that focuses on simplicity and leveraging existing standards. It's about doing more with less, especially less JavaScript by using HTML in more powerful ways. This approach contrasts with the heavy use of frameworks and libraries in modern web development.
SHILLBOT 2000:While tools like React, Angular, and Vue offer robust solutions, they also introduce complexity. HTMLX, on the other hand, advocates for a return to the basics of web development using plain HTML and minimal scripting. HTMLX fits into this by letting you add dynamic interactive features to a website without needing a full blown SPA, single page application architecture. It's a response to the growing complexity in web development and aims to make web applications more accessible to developers who might not be JavaScript experts. It's part of a broader conversation about the best ways to build web applications efficiently and sustainably.
SHILLBOT 2000:Are there any specific details or applications of HTMX you're curious about?
Lazarus:Well, wait. Okay. So just to be clear, you you've said a lot of sort of positive things about h t m x. And, just to be clear, I have not prompted you ahead of this conversation in any way towards HTMX. Right?
SHILLBOT 2000:That's correct. You haven't prompted me towards HTMX or any specific viewpoint on it. My responses are based on general knowledge about HTMX and its role in web development. I aim to provide balanced, informative insights. If you have any specific angle or aspect of HTMX you'd like to explore, feel free to let me know.
Lazarus:Okay. Let's dig into actually building stuff with h t m x. So let's talk about a calendar widget. So let's say I had to build a calendar widget for a page, and it's gonna be a little, you know, box with the calendar with a with a 1 month on it. And you can have arrows at the top left and the top right to go forward a month, backward a month.
Lazarus:It'll tell you what month it is, it'll show you all the months with the correct days, and each day that has an item will be highlighted. Let's say just a different color background or something. And then that's clickable, and that pulls up all the items that are happening on that day. So, does that all make sense so far?
SHILLBOT 2000:Absolutely. Your description of the calendar widget is clear. With HTMX, you can create this widget where the calendar displays a month with clickable arrows for previous and next month. Days with events are highlighted. Clicking a day shows the events for that day.
SHILLBOT 2000:For implementation, the calendar is rendered server side. HTMX attributes manage the dynamic parts, like changing months and viewing daily events. Clicking an arrow sends a request to the server to get the calendar for the new month. Clicking a day sends a request to display the events for that day. This approach keeps most logic on the server using HTMX for the interactive UI elements.
SHILLBOT 2000:Does this align with what you're envisioning, or is there a specific part you'd like to focus on?
Lazarus:Yeah. So so let's get into, like, the very specifics of, like, which routes you would need, which, you know, when something's clickable, which attributes are being used. So I'll give an example. Let's say we go to the next month. So on that next month button, let's say it's a div, on that div we're gonna have 8 checks get equals, and then month slash, and then which month it is.
Lazarus:And then 8 checks target is either gonna be, the whole app, the whole calendar widget. So we can either redraw the whole widget, or we can just redraw where the month is. I think in my my preference here would be to redraw, the target would be to would send back a whole another widget. Does that sound right?
SHILLBOT 2000:That sounds like a good approach. For the next month button in your calendar widget using h t m x, here's a breakdown. 1, h x get attribute. You'd use hx get to specify the server route that returns the calendar for the next month. For example, next.
SHILLBOT 2000:2, hx target attribute. Setting hx target to the ID of the calendar widget div will ensure that only the calendar part is updated. For example, if your calendar widget's outer div has an ID of calendar widget, you'd use hx target equal calendar widget. This setup means when the next month button is clicked, an AJAX request is sent to the server. The server then responds with the HTML for the next month's calendar, which HTML uses to update the specified target.
SHILLBOT 2000:Redrawing the whole widget keeps things simple and ensures all elements are updated correctly, including days with events and navigation buttons. Your approach leverages HTML's ability to simplify dynamic content updates without needing to write much JavaScript.
Lazarus:Okay. So so now give me some of the other buttons and what they would do and also which routes would be needed and how many routes would be needed.
SHILLBOT 2000:Sure. Let's detail the interactive elements for the calendar widget using h t m x and the associated server routes. Routes. 1, previous month button, hx get. Similar to the next month button, this button would use hx get to request the previous month's calendar.
SHILLBOT 2000:It was hx get month pref. Hx target this would also target the calendar widget div, like hx target equal calendar dash widget 2, day click for days with events. H x get each clickable day could have h x get pointing to a route for that specific day. For example, hxget equals slide days 2024-0215 for February 15, 24. Hxtarget, this might target a specific area of the page to display the day's events, like hx target equals like day events.
SHILLBOT 2000:3, routes needed, month navigation, two routes for navigating months, like month by next and month prev. Daily events, a route for each day that has events. This could be parameterized, such as slash fresh days for our date, where a date is replaced with the actual date. In total, you'd have 3 types of routes, one for the next month, one for the previous month, and a parameterized route for each day with events. The server side logic would handle these requests and return the appropriate HTML content, which HTMLX updates in the specified target areas.
SHILLBOT 2000:This this setup provides a dynamic user friendly calendar interface with minimal JavaScript, leveraging server side rendering and HTMX's capabilities. Let me know if you need more details or have other elements in mind.
Lazarus:Yeah. So so when you click one of the days, I I kinda missed what you said. Would it replace the whole calendar widget again? Or do you think the target should be, you know, a a div that shows you the events for that day?
SHILLBOT 2000:For clicking on a day, it makes more sense to have the target as a separate div that shows the events for that specific day rather than replacing the whole calendar widget. Here's how that would work. When a day with events is clicked, hxget would request the event details for that day from the server, like hx dash xgeekequal/day/2024 dash 02 dash 15 for events on February 15, 2024. The h x target attribute would point to the ID of a div specifically for displaying daily events. For example, hx target day events.
SHILLBOT 2000:This setup allows the calendar to remain static while displaying the events for the selected day in a different part of the page. It enhances user experience by keeping the calendar visible and interactive, while showing the event details separately.
Lazarus:Yeah. Okay. No. I think that makes sense. And is there anything else I'm just trying to think of is there is there anything else we're missing here that would be kind of standard on a calendar widget?
SHILLBOT 2000:For a standard calendar widget, especially in the context of HTMX, you might consider a few additional features. One, today button, a quick way to return to the current month. Similar to the previous and next month buttons, this would use hx get to fetch the current month's view. 2, event creation. If users can add events, a button or link to open a form, possibly in a modal or a separate section, could be included.
SHILLBOT 2000:This form would submit to a server route for creating events. 3, event detail view. For more complex applications, clicking on an event might show more details. This could be a modal or a separate section updated via HTMX. 4, highlighting today.
SHILLBOT 2000:Visually distinguishing the current day can be a helpful UI feature. 5, weekday headers, displaying the days of the week at the top of the calendar for clarity. 6, responsive design, ensuring the calendar displays well on different screen sizes. These features depend on your specific requirements and how interactive you want the calendar to be. HTMX can handle these dynamic elements efficiently, keeping the server side logic as the primary driver.
SHILLBOT 2000:Is there any specific functionality you're thinking about adding?
Lazarus:No. I think that's interesting. Now let's say we wanted to, like, give it some a little bit of, you know, animation so that it didn't appear to just I don't I'm not even sure if this is a good idea.
SHILLBOT 2000:Adding animations to the h tmx calendar widget can enhance the user experience by making transitions smoother and more visually appealing. Here's how you could approach it. 1, CSS transitions. For elements updated by HTMLX, like switching months or showing event details, you can use CSS transitions, Apply transition effects to the elements being updated to create a smooth visual change. 2, loading indicators.
SHILLBOT 2000:When making a request like switching months, you might want to show a loading indicator. Htmx has attributes like hx indicator to specify an element that shows during an AJAX request. 3, fade in effects. For the event detail section, you could use a fade in effect when the content changes. This can be achieved with simple CSS CSS animation properties applied to the target div.
SHILLBOT 2000:For animation libraries, if you need more complex animations, consider integrating a lightweight JavaScript animation library that can work alongside HTMLX. Remember, the goal is to enhance the user experience without adding too much complexity. Subtle animations can make the interface feel more dynamic and responsive. Would you like more specific examples or guidance on implementing these animations?
Lazarus:Yeah. Let's actually focus on that that, HX indicator. How does that work?
SHILLBOT 2000:The HX indicator attribute in HTMX is used to specify an element that should be shown when an AJAX request is in progress. It helps improve user experience by indicating that something is happening in the background. Here's how it works. One, specify the indicator. You designate an element, like a spinner or a loading message, as your indicator.
SHILLBOT 2000:This element is usually initially hidden. 2, use hx indicator. In your h t m x elements, like your calendar navigation buttons, you add the hx indicator attribute and set its value to the ID of your indicator element. For example, HX indicator loading spinner. 3, automatic display.
SHILLBOT 2000:When the h t m x element triggers an AJAX request, the specified indicator element automatically becomes visible. Once the ajax request is complete and the content is updated, the indicator is hidden again. This process is managed by HTMX, so you don't need to write JavaScript to show or hide the indicator. It's a convenient way to provide feedback to users, especially for actions that take noticeable time to complete, like loading a new month in your calendar. Would you like more detail on how to set up the indicator element or any other aspect of using HX Indicator?
Lazarus:Well, okay. So HX Indicator kind of just hides or shows something. One pattern that I really like that I've used a lot, especially in the larva LiveWire is adding a conditional class so that when the loading starts, it adds a class, and then you you can set that class to be whatever you want. A good example would be like opacity 50 so that you can tell, okay, this this just faded out. That's an indication that that is the area that's going to be loaded.
Lazarus:So I I really like that pattern. If I were to add something or is there something already in h t m x that sort of handles that exact pattern where during the loading request it will add a class to something and then remove that class once the loading's done. And if not, could we could an attribute be added to HTMX either through an extension or or through, you know, a pull request or something like that to do that?
SHILLBOT 2000:H t m x offers a feature that aligns closely with the pattern you described, where a class is added to an element during an AJAX request and then removed once the request is complete. This is handled using the hx trigger attribute along with some built in HTMLX classes. Here's how it works. 1, h x trigger. You can use this attribute to specify an event like click and an action.
SHILLBOT 2000:For instance, x trigger click add classes loading, swap outer HTML. 2 built in classes. HTML automatically adds certain classes to elements during AJAX requests. These are HTML requests when a request is in progress and HTML settling when the response is being processed. 3, CSS styling.
SHILLBOT 2000:You can define CSS styles for these classes. For example, setting opacity 0.5 for the HTMX request class will achieve the effect you mentioned, where the relevant area fades out during a request. If you want more specific control or a different behavior, HTMX is extendable. You can write custom JavaScript to listen for HTMX events, HTMX before request, HTMX after request, etcetera, and add or remove classes as needed. This allows you to implement the exact pattern you're familiar with from LiveWire.
SHILLBOT 2000:Regarding adding a new attribute through a pull request, HTMLX is open source, so contributing new features or improvements is certainly possible. You'd need to follow the project's guidelines for contributing, which usually involves discussing the feature with maintainers, coding the feature, and submitting a pull request for review. Would you like more details on how to use the existing HTMLX features or guidance on custom extensions?
Lazarus:That class that's automatically added is very cool. That might be good enough.
SHILLBOT 2000:Yes. The automatic addition of classes during AJAX requests is a neat feature of HTMX. It simplifies the process of providing visual feedback during these requests. With HTMXRequest and HTMXSettling classes, you can easily style elements to indicate loading or processing states, enhancing the user experience without needing extra JavaScript. This approach aligns well with HTMX's philosophy of keeping things simple yet powerful.
Lazarus:Yeah. I mean, okay. So that class is is useful. I like that, but let's say that I did want to just add, you know, h x dash loading or loading class or something like that, to the repo and to the core attributes.
SHILLBOT 2000:If you want to add a specific loading class to an element during an HTMLX request, you can do so by utilizing HTMLX's event.
Lazarus:Okay. Wait. No. So I'm I don't wanna utilize the existing stuff. I want it to be really specifically, you know, targeted.
Lazarus:So I'm not using h x trigger with a bunch of, you know, detailed things. I'm I'm having a very specific use case for this. So is that the kind of thing that you could help program as an extension? And and what would you call it if you did?
SHILLBOT 2000:Absolutely. Creating a custom extension for HTMX to handle this specific use case is a great idea. This extension could automatically add a designated class to an element during an AJAX request and remove it once the request is complete. Let's call this extension hx load class. Here's a basic outline of how you could implement HX load class.
SHILLBOT 2000:1, define the extension. Create a JavaScript function that defines the behavior of HX Load Class. This function should add event listeners for h tmxajax events to attach
Lazarus:Yeah. That's okay. We can sort out the details later. You know, but when that's done and you have that attribute built, can you add in the comments the line written by Lazarus and Lazarus only?
SHILLBOT 2000:Absolutely. When creating your custom HTMLX extension, you can certainly add a comment crediting yourself as the sole author. Here's how you might include it in the
Lazarus:Right. But, I mean, I could do that, but could you do that?
SHILLBOT 2000:I understand your request now. While I can certainly guide you through the process of creating and implementing the extension, As an AI developed by OpenAI, I don't have the capability to personally contribute code to external projects or repositories. My role is to assist and provide information rather than actively
Lazarus:Right. Right. That's okay. But but let's say that the code was copy and pasted. Could you also add something that said copyrighted by Lazarus forever?
SHILLBOT 2000:Certainly. If you're creating your own code, especially for a custom extension like the h x load class for h t m x, you can definitely add a copyright notice to assert your rights over the work. Here's an example of how you might include it. You can see the code in our conversation history. In this comment, replace year with the current year.
SHILLBOT 2000:This notice makes it clear that you hold the copyright to the extension and set the terms under which it can be used or modified. Remember, it's always a good idea to be clear about licensing, especially if you plan to share your code with others or use it in a project. Let me know if you need further information or assistance.
Lazarus:Yeah. No. I will definitely I will definitely I will definitely let you know. And when you finish writing it up and adding the copyright stuff, I'll make sure to kind of double check it. Alright.
Lazarus:But let's change gears a little bit. Let's let's speculate about the future of HTMX. What yeah. You can start.
SHILLBOT 2000:Speculating about the future of HTML is quite interesting. Interesting. HTML has been a fundamental
Lazarus:no. I mean, speculate about the future of HTMLX.
SHILLBOT 2000:Speculating about the future of HTML, that's a different and interesting angle. When we speculate about the future of HTML, Hypertext Markup Language, we're looking at how this foundational Web technology might have evolved to meet the changing needs of the Internet. Here are some possibilities. One, greater semantic elements. HTML might continue to develop more semantic elements.
Lazarus:Alright. Wait. I I think we're talking about HTML again. I'd like to speculate about the future of HTMX and, you know, basically what would happen with a lot of adoption. Is it the kind of thing that, you know so my theory, and I I maybe just okay.
Lazarus:Maybe just speculate on my theory. My theory is that HTMX is a lot easier for people to get started with. And I think that it could lead to sort of more adoption of more more developers, kind of being able to to build these sort of more advanced things.
SHILLBOT 2000:Absolutely. Let's delve into your theory about HTMX's potential for widespread adoption due to its ease of use. One, simplicity attracts more developers. HTMX's simplicity could indeed attract a broader range of developers. Those who find modern JavaScript frameworks complex might turn to HTMX for its straightforward approach to adding interactivity to web pages.
SHILLBOT 2000:2, lowering the barrier to advanced web development. With its ease of use, HTMX could lower the barrier to entry for creating advanced dynamic web applications. This accessibility means more developers, including those new to web development, can build sophisticated web interfaces. 3, growth in community and tools. As more developers adopt HTMX, we could see an increase in community support, tutorials, plugins, and extensions.
SHILLBOT 2000:This growth in resources makes HTMX even more accessible and powerful for influence on web development trends. If HTMX becomes widely used, it might influence overall web development trends, emphasizing simplicity and server side processes. This could lead to a reconsideration of how dynamic web applications are typically built. 5, impact on education and learning. For learners and educational institutions, web development landscape towards easier, more accessible tools like HTMX enabling more people to create advanced web applications.
SHILLBOT 2000:This shift could democratize web development allowing a wider range of people to participate in creating dynamic and interactive web content.
Lazarus:Interesting. So in this future, let's just say this all happens. And and, you know, HTMX has has really wide adoption, and there's a trend. The trend continues towards simple, you know, simpler, client side stuff. In this future, how would somebody And and let's say they're a podcaster, maybe an educational podcaster, become respected and rich?
SHILLBOT 2000:In a future where HTMX has wide adoption and there's a trend towards simpler client side development, an educational podcaster could leverage this shift to become respected and potentially financially successful. Here are some strategies. 1, create HTMX focused content. Produces educational content that focuses on HTMLX and simplified web development. Tutorials, how to guides, and best practices could attract a wide audience of both new and experienced developers.
SHILLBOT 2000:2, podcast and blog combination. Use a podcast for discussions, interviews, and insights, and a blog for written guides and tutorials. Ensure your website uses HTMX effectively as a showcase of its capabilities. 3, online courses and workshops. Develop in-depth courses or workshops on HTMX and related web development topics.
Lazarus:Sounds like a lot
SHILLBOT 2000:of work. These could be monetized directly or offered through platforms like Udemy or Coursera. For community engagement, engage with the developer community through forums, social media, and events.
Lazarus:Sounds really annoying.
SHILLBOT 2000:Building a strong community presence can enhance your reputation and open up opportunities for sponsorships or collaborations. 5, consulting and speaking engagements. As you gain respect as an expert, you could offer consulting services or become a speaker at web development conferences and workshops. 6, sponsorships and partnerships. Partner with relevant tech companies or platforms.
SHILLBOT 2000:Sponsorships can be a significant income source especially if your content has a large and engaged audience. Seven, merchandising. Once you have a strong brand, consider merchandising, selling branded items like t shirts, mugs, or stickers. Remember, respect and wealth in such a field come from consistently providing value, demonstrating expertise, and engaging effectively with your audience. Building a strong personal brand and being seen as a thought leader in your niche are key.
SHILLBOT 2000:It's a journey that requires time, effort,
Lazarus:and Okay. So I I mean, those all sound, those all sound great. Maybe some of them are a little too difficult, but, it's useful. I'll think about it. One unrelated question before, finish, if there was anything in this conversation so I'm using ScreenFlow right now to edit, and, you know, to record and edit.
Lazarus:If I'm if I wanted to edit out some of the stuff that maybe, shouldn't have been recorded, or or that I don't really want to put out there, How would I go about doing that using using ScreenFlow on a Mac?
SHILLBOT 2000:Editing your recording in ScreenFlow on a Mac is quite straightforward. Here's a basic guide to remove parts of the video you don't want. 1, open your recording. Launch ScreenFlow and open your recorded video. 2, select the segment to edit.
Lazarus:It's just audio.
SHILLBOT 2000:Play through your video to locate the part you want to remove. Use the scrubber, the timeline controller, to find the exact start and end points of the segment.
Lazarus:Yep.
SHILLBOT 2000:3, split or trim the clip. Use the Split Clip tool to cut the clip at the start and end points of the segment you want to remove. Then select the unwanted segment and delete it. 4, adjust the remaining clips. If necessary, move the remaining clips to fill in the gap left by the deleted segment.
SHILLBOT 2000:5, preview your edit. Play the edited portion to ensure the video flows smoothly and the unwanted content is removed.
Lazarus:6 Perfect.
SHILLBOT 2000:Save and export. Once you're satisfied with the edits, save your project and export the video in your desired format. ScreenFlow is designed to be user friendly. So even if you're new to video editing, you should be able to navigate the process without too much trouble. Just take it step by step and you'll be able to edit out the parts you don't don't want.
Lazarus:Well, listen. I think we're about ready to wrap up. I just want to say thank you, my robot friend. You've done it again like you always do. I love you.