Episode 2 - The History of Surnames

To change your last name after marriage or to not change your name after marriage? That is the question we discuss today ladies and gents. Vanessa walks us through the history of surnames and the tradition of changing your last name in different cultures.

Ok, But Seriously airs Tuesday's 6-7 pm on KUNV 91.5 The Rebel-HD2.

Show Notes

Find out more and access the full show archive at https://therebelhd2.com/shows/okbutseriously

What is Ok, But Seriously?

Ok, But Seriously airs Tuesday evenings from 6-7pm and gives you the information you need in the way you want. Vanessa Lauren, UNLV broadcast major and Vegas native, talks about her passion for people, history and storytelling. Join her as she breaks down all of the serious topics in a non-serious way. If you are looking to learn and laugh this is the show for you… seriously.

0:00:00
Hello everyone, welcome back to okay, but seriously the show where we talk about serious topics in a non-serious way I am your host Vanessa Lauren. Good evening, and you're listening to 91.5 KUNV the rebel HD 2 tonight's gonna be a little bit different. We're gonna do a shorter episode I don't have any guests tonight. So it's just me and you and the topic of surnames and marriage around the world. So buckle down, maybe make yourself a little late night tea, or get yourself a little snack. And I learned a lot putting this together. So I hope you learn something hearing it back. This started because I was at work and we I work for a local news station and we were talking about a recent survey that came out about women in America saying that they're more likely to keep their maiden name versus taking on their, their husband's name or their partner's name when they get married. And so that kind of sparked an idea of, okay, well, why? And then in my head, I'm like, what's the history behind taking a name? Like why do we even do that? So we're going to start with them and I did some research about the different customs around the world. So I'm going to run you through some of those, some interesting stuff there about what people do in other places and then go through the history of like why people take their partner's name when they get married. So let's get into it. So starting in Asia, I'm going to start in Japan. So in the Japanese society, women, Women, it's the article I found, it said, women must take their husband's surname. But then when I digged a little bit deeper, the actual requirement by the law is just that both members of the union have to have the same family name. So what that means is they don't actually, the women doesn't have to take the man's name, the man can actually take the woman's name, but they have to have the same last name. So recently, in November of 2020, there was a group that decided to do an online survey to see how the Japanese people feel about this law. So they found that 96% of married Japanese women take their husband's last name. And when they did the online survey, they got about 7,000 responses from the ages ranging of 20 all the way up to 60 years old. 71% of those people said that they don't mind either way if the couples have the same last name or not. So it doesn't bother them. 14% said that they do prefer to have the same last name as their spouse and that other married couples should have the same thing. So a huge majority are not concerned, but the law is still the law. What I found interesting about this survey was out of those 7,000, 94 of the people who responded, and I don't know if those are male or female, but 94 of the responses said that they actually gave up or postponed their marriage because they didn't want to change their name. That hits me as sad. I don't know how you feel about that, but personally I can't wait to get married. So the thought of having to go between those two things in my head is like, do I do it? Do I not do it? Just because of this law is pretty crazy. I also found that in Japanese culture, a lot of women who are in the workforce that get married will take their husband's name legally, but they'll use their maiden name in the office. And I also found a story about a reporter out there named Mr. Soto, who actually took his wife's last name. So there are men who do take the woman's last name, because again, it's not about the women having to take the men's name. It's about the couple having the same last name. In Asia, in Malaysia and Korea, it is local custom for women to keep their maiden names, but they don't have a law against changing it. So that's just the standard that they kind of keep in those areas. If you're just popping in, welcome. This is OK But Seriously. I'm Vanessa Loren. We're talking today about surnames and marriage and like the different cultures around the world, what they do, what women can and can't do when it comes to getting married and taking names and then we're going to go through the history of why we even do that. So we're going over to South America in Chile. They have customs that dictate that the women should take the man's last name. But again, there's no law. This is just what's the standard, what's been passed down generations to generation. So it's more of like an understood custom than it is an actual law. Then we're going to advance over to Canada. In Quebec, there is a law that requires all women to keep their maiden names. So this is now the other side of it. In Japan, you have to have the same last name, male or female, doesn't matter, but you have to have the same last name. In Canada, women have to keep their maiden names. And this has been the law since 1981. And when I was reading up on this, it said they have to keep their maiden name whether they want to or not. So that's pretty harsh. It started in 1976. And it actually started from a good cause. So it started because of human rights and freedoms, and they were trying to extend the gender equality and names. So and when they made this law, they extended it as like a women should have the right to keep their name and not lose their name. We're going to get into a little bit later on if you're like, why is this even a topic? Why is it a controversy? I'm going to get into that here in a few minutes. So stick with me. Okay, now we're going to go over to Europe. A lot of places in Europe have a couple different takes on this. So I'm going to break it down for you. In Greece, there's a law that was enacted in 1983. It's quite a bit ago. 1983 that requires all women to keep their maiden name. Again, that is more in the feminist realm. These are these are laws put in place to empower women. But again, you're not giving them a choice. So I'm not going to say here or there. But personally, I feel like you should have a choice. Okay, and then in France, there's a law that's been around since 1789. Let's just think that in 1789, like no one's alive from that time

0:06:35
to defend this law anymore.

0:06:36
We need to update some things, right? But the law in France is that people are not allowed to use any name outside of the one given on their birth certificate. So this isn't just about marriage. This is like here in America, if you're not aware, you can go down and change your name to literally anything. Legally, you can't do that in France, the name you're given at birth is the name that you must keep. So women cannot legally change their name after marriage, even if they wanted to. So I was reading up on like what women do when getting married. And it said that both men and women can accept the other's name, like for social purposes or work purposes, but again, they can't legally change it. So then over in Italy, they do have more options. They cannot legally change their surnames, and that's been the case since 1975, but they can add their husband's name to theirs. So that's that hyphenated situation, or maybe it's like that Facebook stuff we see now when your friends from high school get married and they'll have a new last name, but then in parentheses, they have their maiden name, maybe something more like that. So that's Italy. In Spain, they go with the custom. This is the Spanish culture. So we saw it in Chile, now we're seeing in Spain. They are all about culture and custom and tradition. So in their custom, it's women keeping their surnames so they don't change their names is the custom in Spain. In the Netherlands, women are always identified in documents by their maiden name, but they can take their husband's name under special circumstances. And I don't know what special circumstances means. I tried to look it up, but I'm like, what's more special than getting married? But whatever. So the Netherlands, they keep their maiden name on all their documents and can use their husband's last name if it's a special occasion, I guess. And then in Belgium, the law requires that someone, the law requires that your surname cannot change after marriage. So that would mean they'd have to keep, women would have to keep their maiden name in Belgium as well. And then the last place I have from around the world before we bring it all home to the USA is the UK. So the UK actually did a survey back in 1994 and then 1994, 94% of British women took their husband's last names when they got married. And then that number changed a little bit to 90% of women who felt that same way of taking their husband's last name in 2016 so it's gone down a little bit, but it's going down so women in the UK are kind of agreeing with women in the USA here that hey I don't necessarily want to have to take my husband's last name or my partner's last name So if you're just joining us, this is a lot of numbers and stats and you're like what the heck is going on here We are breaking down the history of surnames and the traditions around the world tonight. That's what we're talking about because I saw a survey at work that talked about women here in the US who, when they get married, are more and more wanting to keep their maiden name. So now we're gonna bring it home. I'm gonna bring it to the US. We're gonna go through the history. Are you ready? Okay, here we go. So here in the US, there was a survey that was done by the New York Times earlier this year. So this is a present survey was done in March of 2021, again by the New York Times. And what this survey found is that 30 percent of American women recently have opted to keep their maiden names. And that number keeps getting higher is what they're finding. So it's 30 percent right now. But in years past, five, ten years ago, it wasn't that high. So it's slowly becoming more and more, um, acceptable, I guess, in the, in the female mind and definitely in the culture. So this all led to me going, okay, what the heck, like, why do we even do this? Where does the history of like a last name even come from? And this is pretty cool. So I'm going to break it down for you. So the practice of a woman taking a husband's last name goes all the way back to the 11th century, which is wild when you think about it. 11th century traditions today is just bananas. There was something called the Norman Conquest. If you don't know what that is, how can you not be educated? Just kidding. I didn't know what it was either. So the Norman Conquest was again in the 11th century and what it was is there was an invasion and occupation of England that was from an army that was made up of Normans, Britons, and the Flemish, and then other French provinces. So it was led by William the Conqueror, and they basically came into England, they took over, and then they started implementing new rules and new standards. And one of those rules was this, getting a surname. Because up until this point of the 11th century, there was no such thing as a surname. There was only like a family name. So if you're familiar with the Bible, in the Bible, you'll see things like John of Assis or Paul of Babylon. Like people were always associated with where they came from. It wasn't necessarily like a last name, right? Okay, so what they started to do in the 11th century, so the Normans came in, they took over England, and they're like, okay, we need to start like divvying out some last names, okay? Just imagine that conversation, like sitting at a round table, and you're like, okay, so what are we going to do? How are we going to tell the difference between all these Johns? And they're like, I've got an idea. This was their idea. Okay, they started to name men, it's very specific, and I want to make that known, because that's part of the controversy. This was not a conversation that women were involved in. This was only decided amongst the men and names given to the men. Okay. So they sat around a table, I'm assuming, and they said, okay, we're going to name people based off of their estate or where they're born, where they lived, things like that. So, for example, you had John the Smith, William the Taylor, and then those people became John Smith, William Taylor. Make sense? So that was their occupation and then it became their name. They also would do like their son. So let's just say John had a son. They would distinguish it by their father. So that's how we got like John's son or William's son. Johnson, Williamson. I know now my mind's blown. Every person I meet, I'm like, what's your last name? So then the Norman specifically had the tradition of adding the word Fitz to a father's name. So that would be like Fitz Gerald. So let's say your dad's name was Gerald, and you're the son, they would go, Okay, well, now your last name is going to be Fitz Gerald, or Fitzhugh. Okay, that was the Normans. And then the Celts. Oh my gosh, the Celtics. A lot of words here, guys. The Celts of Ireland and Scotland, they used the surnames of Mac and they'd add it on for a son and then O would be for a grandson. So that's how we got MacDonald and O'Donald. Fascinating, right? When you really think about it and break it down, these are things that came from the 11th century. This is wild. I have a friend whose last name is MacDonald and I'm like, oh my gosh, this is wild. And then the last little bit I found was that if none of these things worked, so let's say they didn't have an occupation that was easy to that was easy to put together or a name, then they would just base it off their physical characteristics. So like long or short, or colors, just give random colors like brown, black, white, moral attributes, so moody, wise, and it even said some people were named after like birds or animals or plants. So like Martin or Fox or Rose, right? So that is the history of like where last names come from. So it wasn't like these have been things since the beginning of time. These are things that were established in the 11th century. And again, this was an invasion that happened from people into England and then they established, okay, we need to start differentiating between humans and this is what they came up with, okay? So if you're just popping in to this episode, welcome back to Okay But Seriously. I'm Vanessa and I'm walking us through surnames and the history of surnames, where they come from. And now we're gonna get into why this is a controversial topic when it comes to women getting married and taking on a man's last name. Because if you're like me, I knew it was a controversial thing, but I didn't know why. I'm not married. So I go by Vanessa Lauren for a reason. I'll get into that after I go through this controversy, but I'm not married. So I didn't know much about this myself. So for me, it was doing the research, not only for my own knowledge, but to bring it here and share it with all of y'all. So here's why it's a controversy. So back in the day, like I said, the English common law became that once you were married, a woman's identity was covered by her husband. And that word identity is very important because it wasn't just that they took the name, okay? Women could not own property. They couldn't enter into any contracts of their own. Husbands had complete control over their wives legally and financially, and the law limited women's legal rights when it came to rape or domestic violence cases. They had no legal rights over their children. So this law was not like something to be taken lightly. This was a very heavy thing. So instead of it just being, oh, I'm getting married and I want to take on my husband's name because what a beautiful thing and how romantic. A, they didn't have a choice. And B, with that, they were losing basically all these freedoms, right? So the law never fully got like turned over changed, it just kind of faded away. When we hit the 19th 20th century. Of course, if you're not familiar, that's like when the women's movement really picked up. That's when women started to be like, you know what, enough, enough, put their feet down. So prior to the 1970s, let's let that sink in 1970s. Not that long ago, some of you out there might be might have been born before before the 1970s, or people walking the planet today, who lived in this time, prior to the 1970s, women could not get passports, driver's license. And again, we're talking about America here, passports, driver's license, they couldn't register to vote, unless they took their husband's last name. So let's let that all just sink in. We've come so far, right? So I wanted to point out this woman. I don't know much about her and I don't want to get too much into her because again, trying to keep this episode a little shorter, but if you have the time, look up the woman Lucy Stone because Lucy Stone was a woman who chose to keep her own name after marrying a man named Henry Blackwell, but this was in 1855. So this was not, she probably got a lot of slack for doing that. And I just love that her last name was Stone because it's like, imagine people are like, man, the stones on that one, huh? But look more into her if you're more interested on like what it was if they didn't. Because I know for us as women now, we're like, okay, well, just don't do it. Okay, well, it wasn't that easy, right? So Lucy Stone, look her up if you have some time. Then let's flash forward. We know – I'm sorry, not flash forward, but we know that in 1920 women got the right to vote, right? We all know that. We learned that in school. But I didn't know this. There is a fine print in that clause that said that a woman can only vote if she had her husband's last name. So I'm sure for a lot of people it wasn't a problem because again women kind of tied it to that romantic feeling of oh I'm getting married I want to take on his last name. But if there was someone like Lucy Stone who lived in 1930 and wanted to vote or you know she just couldn't because she didn't have her husband's last name. Then this all changed in 1975. So let me just I know I'm giving you a lot of numbers so let's break it down make it really easy. 1920 women get the right to vote but you cannot vote unless you have your husband's last name. 1970 is when things kind of start shifting. Up until then, women can't get their driver's license. They can't get a passport. They can't get anything in their own name. They don't have a lot of rights outside of using their husband's last name, right? Then in 1975, there was a woman named Rosy Rosary Palermo. And she lived in Tennessee. She was a lawyer. She was in a Nashville lawyer. And in September of 1973, she married another lawyer. Okay. And when she went to change her address in her paperwork, they told her you need to change your last name as well. Now, this is 1973 in Tennessee, Nashville, Tennessee. And she said, No, because no, I use my last name professionally. I'm a lawyer, I'm established lawyer, I use professionally, socially, I don't want to change my last name." And they said, well, you have to. So her, being a lawyer, took him to court. So she took the case to court. She won, and they ruled in her favor. So after that is when women were no longer held to that legal standard of you have to have your husband's last name in order to vote and things like that. Okay, so now I just want to hit you with a couple more surveys and stats about America. And then I'm going to wrap it up with a little bit of a personal story. I didn't know any of this stuff when it comes to the controversy of why women, I guess are fighting for the right to keep their maiden name. But hey, you learn something new every day, right? So in America, 22% of women married in 2010 decided to keep their maiden name after marriage. 3% of men have chosen to change their surname. Now that doesn't have a year established to it, it's just a general stat that only about 3% of men will take their wives' last name. And they did look into this and see, well why? And they found that, excuse me, they found that the more educated a man is, the less likely he is to choose to take on his wife's name. We'll just leave that there. All right, I get it. You know, yeah, you want your plaque on your desk with your last name. Well, so do we, so do we. Okay, and then name blending is a new trend, I guess. I guess new is not really accurate. It's been around for a while, but you're starting to hear more and more about it, I guess, is what I mean nowadays. And they did a Google did a survey that found that about 10% of women choose to hyphenate their name when they get married. And even less than that, about 8% decide to create a whole new name. So them and their partner, they're just like, we're trash your last name not trash sorry well we'll ditch your last name we'll ditch my last name and we'll just create a whole new name which personally after reading all this I'm like that's the way to go you know people are against that though because they feel like it's not it's not keeping tradition obviously it's not honoring your ancestors that's kind of the controversy with creating a new name what do you think tell me what think? I'm online at V from the LV on all the social media platforms. Let me know what you think about this. Women, if you're married or if you're engaged or even if you're single, I'm sure we've all thought about this, right? Like, are you going to take someone else's last name? Let's not forget about same-sex couples. The United States Supreme Court ruled in 2015 that same-sex marriage is legal. And so now same-sex partners also can change their last name and they can change it to either way. So if you are a same-sex couple, how did you decide? Like what did you do? You have conversation? Did you guys do the name blending? Like, let me know how that went. And just personally, I wanted to give you all the information before I put my two cents in here. As I said earlier, I go by Vanessa Lauren. My last name is Vianne Weva. The reason for that is it is a professional choice I decided to go by Vanessa Lauren when I got into broadcasting school because I just didn't want the hassle of having to change My name if I did get married And also, you know, I'm building a brand right? So I'm building a brand with things like when it comes to TV and radio and I just in my head I don't want to do all this hard work and then change my name and then people are like, well, where did she go? Right. And I get it. Like, well, just keep your last name. But personally speaking, I've always wanted to take on my husband's last name as a romantic gesture as a union. Being a Christian, I believe in the union of two people becoming one. So for me, that's a personal choice of I want to be, I want me and my husband to be one unit. That's not what everyone has to do. I'm not saying that, but that's where I come from. So what I did was made the choice of going, okay, I'm gonna go by my first and middle name professionally so that if and when I get married, I don't have to worry about that stress. I did tell, I am in a relationship. I've been with my partner for quite a while. And I have told him that I will be graduating with my last name. Like I was like, look, I don't know if and when marriage is on your mind, but I would like to get my degree with my last name on it because I put the work into that. And not to say when you marry someone you lose your identity or anything like that. But for again, for me personally, I just feel like I wanted to walk across that stage and get my degree with the last name that I, you know, had throughout the journey. So that's my opinion. I would love to hear your opinion. Let me know. Again, V from the LV is where you can find me on all the social medias. Tell me what you think, or if you have a personal story that has to do with this. This is a very controversial topic, it seems like, especially if you're in a very traditional family. So I hope you learned something. I know it wasn't the funniest topic, but I just found this really fascinating. So I hope you took away something that maybe you didn't know. If you want to divulge more into this or know anything more, then let me know. Okay? All right, everyone, you have a good night and we'll see you next week. and we'll see you next week.

0:25:00
Bye.

Transcribed with Cockatoo