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Welcome to The Culture Code podcast. On this podcast, you’ll learn how to grow, shape, and sustain a high-performance culture with the CEO of LEADx, Kevin Kruse. From designing and delivering highly effective leadership development programs, to measuring and improving the employee experience, you will understand what it takes to cultivate a thriving company culture. Through interviews with Chief People Officers, deep dives into key topics, and recordings of our invite-only community sessions, we bring you cutting-edge, data-backed insights from the most desirable companies to work for in the world.
Kevin Kruse: Hello, everyone! I'm Kevin Kruse. Welcome back to Culture Code. Our guest today is the Chief People Officer at HackerOne, Dawn Mitchell. Dawn, welcome. Where are you joining us from today?
Dawn Mitchell: Thank you. I'm right outside of DC in the Northern Virginia area.
Kruse: Normally, I'm your neighbor just outside Philadelphia, but I've been in California for a while, so I think my weather's been a little bit better than the Mid-Atlantic, but I hear it's not too bad right now.
Mitchell: It's a beautiful fall day. It's gorgeous outside.
Kruse: For those who might not be familiar with HackerOne how big is your organization and in plain language, what do you do?
Mitchell: I'm happy to. So I would call us a scale-up with around 400 or so employees. Our mission is to make the Internet a safer place. We pinpoint the most critical security flaws across an organization's attack surface with continual adversarial testing, using ethical hackers to outmatch cybercriminals. I know that might be a mouthful, but the key piece there is the ethical hackers. In my opinion, it's our secret sauce. We work with that community to identify vulnerabilities for our customer, and just the inherent diversity within our hacking community is so powerful when you're thinking about the systems and the tooling that has inherent bias internally within a team. Then you get to use this army of ethical hackers to find your vulnerabilities before a bad guy does.
Kruse: Brilliant approach. Now, you said there are about 400 colleagues. Is that right?
Mitchell: That's right.
Kruse: Are you fully remote, hybrid? Where does everybody work?
Mitchell: We're digital first, and specific on that term. We're digital first, not digital only. For some people, they need to be in an office. So we leverage WeWork all access. For others, they can comfortably work from home. But we really strive to make our work as asynchronous as possible to harness the ability to hire. We currently work in 16 countries, so it allows us access to a huge network of talent.
Kruse: 16 countries, 400 people, digital first. How would you describe your company culture in just a few words?
Mitchell: It's our values. And I mean that fully. It's been so refreshing over 18 months to work at a company that lives there. It's not lip service. It shows up in how we hire and how we do our performance management. It's our values, probably my favorite, as number one is, "default to disclosure." We, as a team, lead with integrity, execute with excellence, and respect all people.
Kruse: That's great. And I'm curious, how long have you been in the organization now? You said?
Mitchell: Yeah, 18 months.
Kruse: 18 months. So, when you onboarded yourself, what was your experience like with these values? Did you go through an onboarding experience? And is it similar to what you're now doing with new joiners?
Mitchell: Yes, in the interview process I was lovingly, yet aggressively, evaluated for "default to disclosure" because I think, in the HR function, that's atypical. But I had the fortune of starting my career in a company that also had a value and truly lived it, and it was ever-present. First week, we have a weekly AMA, so every Thursday the whole company gets together, and I was asked a really hard question 4 days in. It's no holds barred. The whole executive team is there. We have a really good format for passing through business context, but we keep it open-ended. So, I knew what I was walking into. But that was such an aha moment of, "Okay, this is really default to disclosure across the board." It doesn't mean you have to know the answer, but you have to be present and willing to collaborate in a really open way.
Kruse: I love this. And just for our listeners, the "default to disclosure" is such a unique value. I've had a lot of these conversations and haven't heard that as a value before. And the way it's phrased, another thing that caught my attention was when you talked about "lovingly and aggressively". I often discuss the duality of leadership. If you're giving someone feedback, it has to be direct but also with care. It's a balance, right?
Mitchell: Yes, yes.
Kruse: That's right. You're probably a fan of "Radical Candor", the book and the practices, right?
Mitchell: I am. I was recently re-listening to the book, and she has a new forward. The phrase is "compassionate candor", which I like a bit better.
Kruse: Compassionate candor. What are some of the ways you foster or sustain this culture? Any unique rituals or traditions related to your culture?
Mitchell: You know, work is day to day, 24/7 in a digital-first environment with the spread across 16 countries. So while we gather once a week in that AMA format, the Slack channel is open all week, so it's a constant back-and-forth dialogue. We have a culture of innovation that helps foster many of the values and genius that emanate from HackerOne. We do this through an annual hack week where we set regular work aside and focus on what we think will move the needle. I believe that the digital-first workplace, the push for asynchronous work, and trusting employees to prioritize lets them produce their best work. They understand it's about output, not just showing face or being present for the sake of it. It's about being present and making an impact.
Kruse: I'm passionate about all things culture.70% of engagement is correlated to the manager, and front-line managers touch more employees than any other leadership group. What are some of the ways you develop your front-line managers?
Mitchell: I love this question because I think HR is best delivered through people leaders, not through HR. Our role is to prop them up to be that person. So this was probably the biggest chunk of work, along with something else, a team one approach. But the biggest chunk that I focused on, probably over the past 18 months, was establishing a relationship from the people team to our leaders and giving them resources. So, we've done a couple of things. Every month, we bring all people leaders together with a call that we refer to as LEAD. The acronym is Leadership, Engagement, Alignment, and Development. These are intended to be topics that are relevant just in time. They're getting the information either just as awareness or an opportunity to give feedback before we roll something out more broadly. We do training in those sessions, and we'll break people out into functions. The lead for that is a member of my team, her name is Pamela Greenberg. She leads our talent strategy functions. This is another element that I'm proud of for the people leaders here. We aren't as big as other companies, and you're probably more familiar with an HR business partner role. What I found with that role at a size like HackerOne is that most of the requests end up being learning and development oriented. So, having a pass-through, not to say that that's the only focus of that role, but it can at times not feel like the best use of our resources. So, we combined those two disciplines, and we have a team of talent strategy partners that do both your traditional HR business partner work and L&D. They really have real-time context from leaders to apply to things like LEAD. And recently, they launched an immersive leadership program where we're bringing together cohorts of leaders to do some real-time training. The other thing I could point to is our extended leadership team. These are directed to the C-suite. We have opened up a Slack channel with them. We also meet with them monthly. That's really interesting because it's two-way. It's not top-down; it's not the executive team talking to them as much as it's creating a forum for discussion, tracking along to our OKRs and what's critical from a business perspective. It gets back to that model that we've got company-wide that's been working, and so we took that and applied it to that layer as well.
Kruse: I really appreciate you sharing that. And it's a good reminder, I think, for companies of any size, that management development doesn't have to look like sending everyone to a situational leadership workshop or those traditional things. Getting cohorts together on a monthly cadence, a known frequent cadence, to talk about the issues at hand, maybe for some learning, maybe for some peer connection, doesn't have to take a lot of time or money. It doesn't mean it's easy to pull off, but it doesn't have to be that formalized, classic management training program approach either. So, I applaud you on that.
Mitchell: Thank you. Leveraging the strengths of each other, that's what we try to do. And a lot of the leadership work.
Kruse: You mentioned the frequent AMAs. How do you solicit feedback from employees about the culture and their engagement (e.g., engagement or other surveys, town halls, ?)
Mitchell: Yes, we do an engagement survey twice a year, which is really helpful. We've got a lot of good output. We're thoughtful on the timing, round up, and are very honest. We default to disclosure with the results. We talk about the work that we're doing to impact those results in a positive manner. We see that throughout teams. We did that at a corporate level, and we do that throughout departments. We're also really present on Slack. In a digital-first environment, you can get a little fearful of hierarchy. So, we work to be present in the business channels, but also the social channels, so that there is accessibility from employees to leadership. And we do a donut pairing, which is a feature in Slack. I think a lot of companies leverage it, but I'm proud to say almost all of our executive team does it. That is a once-a-week random pairing with employees, another great way to get that familiarity so that if there is a concern, they know and they've had a touch point with someone to feel comfortable enough to escalate it.
Kruse: Yeah, that's great. I love this combination of both the official every six months as an engagement survey. Related to culture, are there any special initiatives or results you’re most proud of?
Mitchell: Yes, I think the thing I'm most proud of came out of the engagement survey. There was one completed right before I joined and trust in executive leadership was particularly low. That factor was concerning for me. In a digital-first environment, if you can't see and trust that you are marching towards the right thing, and when big things happen, you've got to have faith in the executive team. So, we collectively decided to move forward with a concept called Team One. The root of it is a book called "The Advantage" by Pat Lencioni. You're probably familiar with "The Five Dysfunctions of a Team." This is kind of a build off of that. It's all about team health, organizational health, building clarity around what your mission is and then over communicating it. When I say we invested, we started a partnership with their consulting firm, The Table Group. It was exciting for me to see the business view this as a critical expense. In the engagement survey the year after, that factor went up, I want to say by 14 points, which is fantastic. It has really sharpened the work that we do as an executive team, which I think is critical because that flows throughout an organization. If there isn't trust, health, and a mentality where each executive puts their functional hat aside and joins a conversation with a CEO mindset – because inevitably there are give and get in that dynamic – it trickles down and can create silos and unhealthy behaviors. That's the work I'm most proud of, and it's ongoing work, constantly working out that muscle. But it's been really refreshing.
Kruse: I hope our listeners heard, Dawn, that you said "over communicate", not just "communicate". Over communicate, right?
Mitchell: Yes, chief reminding officers, that's what we all are. So you can't say it once. You have to say it about 15 times, and then 15 different ways.
Kruse: Yeah, I had an old boss and mentor years ago who said, when it comes to reminding over communicating, he said, "If your team members aren't making fun of you behind your back over how often you're saying it, you're not saying it often enough."
What book would you recommend that your colleagues read? (or podcast, video, etc.)
Mitchell: Can I say two?
Kruse: Please, the more the better.
Mitchell: The first one would be "The Four Agreements" by Don Miguel Ruiz. This is just a great way to think about life both inside and outside of work. And those agreements are: be impeccable with your word, don't take anything personally, don't make assumptions, and always do your best. And then the second book would be "The Obstacle is the Way" by Ryan Holiday. I love this book. It's filled with short, powerful stories about overcoming obstacles, whether they be mental, physical, emotional, or perceived. And I think both are great tools when you think about success and whatever that looks like to you.
Kruse: I didn't know you were a stoic. It's coming out, though, if you like that book. Huh! Great books! I love both of those myself. Shifting a bit, if you think about your career, you know, what's something that you know today, something that you believe in today, that maybe you wish you had known on day one? How have you evolved? What's advice to a younger version of yourself?
Mitchell: I wish I knew how heavy the role is. You carry the emotions of people and big decisions. It also can be really isolating because at times you're carrying information that you're not sharing with the CEO or the rest of the executive team. So, build your network. If this is a role that you want to have, you've got to have a network of peers outside of the organization. This is probably very ever-present for me because I stepped into this right before Covid. It was a very heavy time, and the events after that. But I would argue, in general, this role is that way more so than a lot of roles.
Kruse: It's so important. I mean, I have felt that chief people officers, senior HR folks, always have a tough job. You're talking about the most personal stuff: lives, the pressures of recruiting, mental health issues, and occasionally right-sizing an organization. Hard, hard work. Then, Covid comes and it's like, "Oh, you thought it was hard before? Just wait till you see what I'm going to throw at you in the next few years." And what I really liked is what you said. It's not just the peer group or people to talk to or to empathize with internally. It's outside the organization as well. You really need your own support system, right?
Mitchell: Yes, that's just critical to maintaining balance and not feeling like you're in an echo chamber. You need that grounding in reality when you might not feel like you can do it yourself.
Kruse: Yeah. So with all the craziness that continues to go on and the success of HackerOne, what's something that you plan to focus on in the year ahead? What's a priority for your team in 2024?
Mitchell: It's more of a theme. We're going to break some stuff. We built a really solid foundation over the past 18 months. We were lacking some tooling, processes, and automation. As a digital-first company with a leadership team that's so bought into the future of work, I cannot wait to innovate more. We're looking at rethinking engagement surveys, our review cycle, what an OKR process means to roles, and potentially a sprint model when we think about responsibilities and recognition. So, just across the board, it's time to go a little crazy.
Kruse: And I know you haven't actually done the work yet, but I think for our listeners who are outside of tech, they might not be as familiar with an OKR approach to goal setting. Or what sprints are. Can you talk a little bit about what you're thinking in that area?
Mitchell: I'm happy to. And I speak to the knowledge I have of sprints from my career. The OKR process is a way of goal setting, focusing on objectives and key results that start at the top and tend to cascade down. It centers on what's critical for the company that year, so it doesn't encompass the entirety of your role. But it's meant to keep everybody focused on what's going to move the needle. The sprint process that I'm referencing is really just having smart milestones. Right? So we're sprinting towards this body of work. We get there, we review, and if we need to go back, we will, but then we're on to the next. One bit of feedback we've received recently is the uncertainty of what employees should be focusing on and what's critical to the company's success and their success. I wonder if we were to break it out into smaller chunks and really think about a sprint model that tied to our review process, it might offer more clarity and allow us to move faster, eliminating some of that uncertainty. So it's still a very infant idea, but we're excited about changing some things.
Kruse: I'm excited to hear in the future how that turns out. What excites you the most about your company right now?
Mitchell: I mean, one of the initial draws was the uniqueness of what we do and building a category. The excitement for me is the recognition in the industry that we're more than a bug bounty program. That we're really becoming a platform play, and customers are benefiting from the full suite of offerings. It's fun to be a part of creating a market in that sense. And then the people. I thoroughly enjoy the culture and the way it has attracted some of the people I get to work with. It's such a lovely environment with many extremely talented people.
Kruse: That's great. The organization is doing very important work. Obviously, we at LEADx, with our software, use these services, and they are critical. Thanks for the great work your organization is doing. And thanks for your time today. On a Friday, we're recording this on a Friday afternoon on the East Coast. It's late. So hopefully, you've got a good weekend set of plans, but I'm grateful for the time.
Mitchell: I appreciate the offer. I love talking about HackerOne and all things people. So, thank you.
Kruse: Thanks, Dawn.