Why Drinking Less Feels Different This Year W/ Katie Nessel

Katie Nessel from @soberishmom is back, and a lot has shifted since we last talked. In this conversation, we catch up on what the past year has really looked like inside the mindful drinking space, what parents are reaching out about most right now, and where pressure still shows up, especially for moms. We talk about social situations, identity, exhaustion, and the growing gap between how alcohol is marketed and how people actually feel. And we close with what feels more normalized, less taboo, and why drinking less feels different than it did even a year ago.
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ABOUT SUNNYSIDE: Sunnyside is the #1 alcohol moderation app that helps you drink less without any shame, guilt, or pressure to quit. Optimize your alcohol habits to achieve benefits like sleeping better, losing weight, feeling more energy, and saving money. We know that an all-or-nothing approach doesn’t work for everyone, so we focus on helping you set your own goals, celebrate small wins, and build a lasting system of accountability. As a result, 96.7% of our members see a big drop in their drinking after 90 days.

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Creators and Guests

Host

Mike Hardenbrook

#1 best-selling author of "No Willpower Required," neuroscience enthusiast, and habit change expert.

What is Journey to the Sunnyside?

Journey to the Sunnyside is a top 1% podcast, reaching over 500,000 listeners every week. It’s your guide to exploring mindful living with alcohol—whether you're cutting back, moderating, or thinking about quitting.

While Sunnyside helps you reduce your drinking, this podcast goes further, diving into topics like mindful drinking, sober curiosity, moderation, and full sobriety. Through real stories, expert insights, and science-backed strategies, we help you find what actually works for your journey.

Hosted by Mike Hardenbrook, a #1 best-selling author and neuroscience enthusiast, the show is dedicated to helping people transform their relationship with alcohol—without shame, judgment, or rigid rules.

This podcast is brought to you by Sunnyside, the leading platform for mindful drinking. Want to take the next step in your journey? Head over to sunnyside.co for a free 15-day trial.

Disclaimer: The views expressed in our episodes do not necessarily represent those of Sunnyside. We’re committed to sharing diverse perspectives on health and wellness. If you’re concerned about your drinking, please consult a medical professional. Sunnyside, this podcast, and its guests are not necessarily medical providers and the content is not medical advice. We do not endorse drinking in any amount.

Speaker 1: 00:56

My good friend Katie Nessel, also known as Soberish Mom, is back on the show. It's been over a year since we last did a podcast together, and a lot has changed since then. In this conversation, we catch up on what the past year has looked like inside the mindful drinking movement, what parents are reaching out about most right now, and where pressure still shows up, especially for moms. We talk about social situations, identity, and exhaustion, and about the growing gap between how alcohol is marketed and how people actually feel. And we close with what feels more normalized now, what feels less taboo, and why drinking less feels different than it did even a year ago.

Speaker 1: 01:45

Okay, Katie. Thanks for coming on today.

Speaker 2: 01:47

Thanks so much for having me.

Speaker 1: 01:49

We had such a great conversation a while ago, which if you can believe it, I had to look at when we last interviewed, and it was May 2024. So it's been a year and a half. So we got a lot to talk about and to catch up on.

Speaker 2: 02:03

Oh my gosh. We sure do. I know. I can't believe it's just been flying by.

Speaker 1: 02:07

So anybody that's listening that didn't catch the first one, Katie, why don't you give us a little bit of your story and how you became soberish mom?

Speaker 2: 02:19

Yeah. Well, it's yeah. Almost three years ago, I was a stay at home mom with two young kids under four. My husband was traveling for work a ton, and I was just really isolated. And I noticed that my drinking was increasing.

Speaker 2: 02:33

And I would really look forward to, you know, that 5PM drink, sort of earmarked the end of my, like, quote unquote workday and, like, get me through the bedtime routine. And I was probably having, like, three to four drinks, maybe, like, five nights a week. Like, I wasn't drinking a bit of vodka. I wasn't, you know, drinking every day. I was still pretty healthy.

Speaker 2: 02:52

So in my mind, I was someone who, like, did not have, like, a quote unquote problem. But I I definitely felt like a stronger and stronger pull to alcohol, and I just knew, like, it was impacting my overall health. My sleep was terrible. My energy was low. My skin I was like, oh my god.

Speaker 2: 03:07

Is this what my skin looks like now? And, I just decided, like, I need to do something. So I went on a cleanse for a couple weeks. It was January. Like, I didn't do dry January.

Speaker 2: 03:16

I started, like, January 18, but I made it, you know, a couple weeks. And just by removing this one thing in my life, everything started getting easier. I mean, almost immediate. I know for some people it takes longer, but it was like my sleep improved, my patience with my kids started improving, my anxiety decreased. Like, I had no idea how many ways alcohol was impacting me.

Speaker 2: 03:39

I was really ignorant to the impact it was having on my health. And I was thought, like, there's something here for sure. Became hungry for information, started trying nonalcoholic products, you know, tried a bunch of terrible ones, dumped a lot down the drain. And I started diving into a lot of the research behind, like, science the science of habit formation, breaking habits. And I just thought, you know, I think there's a lot of people out there like me who would like to make a change and drink less that, like, really have no idea where to start.

Speaker 2: 04:08

And I felt like I could not easily find the information I wanted, and I didn't feel like I saw myself represented in content online. There's, like, the one group of, like, mommy wine culture making funny videos, drinking with your kids, which, like, I did do. For sure, I was part of that, and it's just everywhere. And then there was the other crowd that's, like, talking about sobriety, AA rehab programs. And I just felt like I don't see myself in either of these groups anymore.

Speaker 2: 04:34

And so that's how I decided to start Soberish Mom, which is where my social media accounts and my blog, and just give parents specifically, you know, women and parents, but anyone's welcome, a very nonjudgmental place to get information about how to make a change in your life. And I do product reviews of nonalcoholic wines and spirits. I do a lot of, you know, low ABV or mocktail recipes and then a ton of education around how I'm was able to cut back my drinking percent. So that's kinda how how it started. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 05:04

Yes. That's a fun story, and it's so relatable because I relate to it. Although I drink more than you did, I still felt like I was in this in between where do I go. I don't identify there, and that's not me either. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 05:19

And that can feel really isolating. And I see. Know, and here's the other thing about you is, like, you were, like, in this normal, quote, unquote, normal or healthy zone, and you easily probably could've either stayed there possibly, which we've never talked about this on your your thoughts is maybe if that would have maybe changed over time. But but nonetheless, like, you were in this, like, quote, unquote, to throw another quote in there, air quote. But but still you weren't in this, like, category.

Speaker 1: 05:53

You were you were nor you were in the normal category, but you weren't feeling your best. And so, like, if looking back, you were to tell yourself some advice around, like, I feel so I don't know where to go. I feel different. I feel isolated. What would you say?

Speaker 2: 06:10

I think well, first, I'll say I I think stories like yours and mine, like, are so important because there are millions of people sitting in where you're sitting right now, and they need stories like ours. Like, oh, like, this bitch did that. She was drinking, like, three bottles of wine a week, and now she barely drinks. Like, maybe I could do that too. And so I think for anyone who's listening who's just starting out, I think that is just coming at it with curiosity is like, that is the bar to entry.

Speaker 2: 06:39

Perfection, abstinence is not the bar to entry. It's just having a willingness to try something different, to be curious about how alcohol is impacting you, and be curious about how maybe deprioritizing alcohol in your life can have a positive impact on you. Like, you're gonna have slip ups. I had a lot of slip ups. Like, I mentioned I did that two week cleanse.

Speaker 2: 06:59

The day after most people don't hear this story. The day after, I went out with my girlfriend and had, like, four cocktails. And I woke up, and I felt like shit. I was like, that's it. I'm done with this.

Speaker 2: 07:09

And so I've been feeling so good for a couple weeks and and I was like, immediately went straight. So know that like it is absolutely a process and a journey, but as long as you are working on yourself, like you're working hard, there there's no way you're not gonna make a change if you are really set and determined to do that. And I think if you have the tools and support in place, which we can talk kind of more about, then you are gonna find success. And and even for me in the beginning, I I could not do a full dry January, and I felt a lot of shame around that. Like, I could not snap my fingers and go thirty or sixty days dry.

Speaker 2: 07:47

But I but I could do 10. So, like, I I'm gonna start here, and I just approach it with, like, a ton of curiosity and reflection. Like, I broke down a ton of notes. Like, I didn't have the Sunnyside app. I didn't have, like, your book, which hugely impacted my life.

Speaker 2: 08:01

Like, I didn't have any of those tools yet. And so I was, like, writing in my journal. Like, each time after I drink, like, how did I feel? Was that worth it? Each time I didn't or, like, I passed by a craving, I would write I would write down.

Speaker 2: 08:13

And so journaling was a huge part of it. But just staying curious about how alcohol is impacting my life, like, that is where you can start, and you will start seeing changes for sure. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 08:23

I love all of that advice. It's so good and helpful and so many different layers. And I'm really glad that you were open about just saying, you know, hey. I'm not perfect even now. Like, I'm not perfect.

Speaker 1: 08:36

That's one of the challenges I have here. Every time I come to do one of these episodes and I talk about myself, I'm not perfect. And, you know, as somebody that speaks and wants to lead, you wanna be perfect. But the fact is, like, I'm a human being. And any coach out there, I think, that says that they're perfect with a perfect record is probably lying to you.

Speaker 1: 08:55

But it's nonetheless, it's still hard. You know? Like, you wanna be perfect. We all wanna be perfect in in state of our commitments. But the truth is is that we're always learning.

Speaker 1: 09:05

We're always improving, and a lot and a lot of that is always might include a little bit of messiness.

Speaker 2: 09:11

Yes. Absolutely true. And and I think just, like, you know, being honest with yourself and where you're at, it lets other people be honest too. Like, I mean, it gives them permission. One thing I I hear a lot of is I'm worried about what my friends and family or how they're gonna treat me when I tell them to drink less.

Speaker 2: 09:29

And what I found is, like, almost every time, almost immediately when I'm like, I'm gonna take a break for drinking or I'm not drinking tonight or I'm not feeling great, however you wanna position it, there is almost always somebody who's like, oh, me too. Or, oh, you oh, god. I know. We're, like, almost 40 now. This is not the way it used to be.

Speaker 2: 09:47

And it allows other people to see you as a safe place. And so I try and, you know, approach it with a lot of openness and just, yeah, like you're saying, just allow other it gives per people permission to not be perfect also. And perfectionism is such a a a very common standard in social media, in life in general. And I think really with women too, we put a ton of pressure on ourselves. And so, you know, moderation, like, it just removes a little bit of that pressure to you are not gonna fail.

Speaker 2: 10:19

Like, you have to be perfect, but why not take, like, a harm reduction approach to your relationship with alcohol?

Speaker 1: 10:26

Absolutely. And I I like how you said that a lot of people will withhold what they're actually thinking and wanting to do because they don't feel that openness. But when you're open about it, all of a sudden, you might be able to be start forming a little bit of a bond or community within other people Yeah. And and not even realize that you're influencing and making a positive impact on other people. Oh.

Speaker 1: 10:50

Even if you have are just one are just getting started.

Speaker 2: 10:52

Oh, it's so true. And, like, people who will try one of my recipes or product and be like, oh, I I brought it to my event, like, my whole family drinks. But, like, everyone tried it and really liked it. So I was like, well, wow. Look at this whole new conversation you opened up about fun mocktails, what's happening in the NA space.

Speaker 2: 11:09

I mean, the nonalcoholic market is exploding. Like, you know, it allows people to kinda share, you know, in the culture with you. So I know it feels nerve wracking to talk to people in your life about it, and you feel like you might be changing the dynamic. But, like, what if you're changing the dynamic in, like, a really good way? Because I do get those messages now that I've had the account for a few years.

Speaker 2: 11:30

People say, like, wow. Last year was so hard for me. Like, this year, like, most of my family was drinking alcoholic, you know, beer with me or wine. And so they're like, you've had an impact on my whole family. And I'm like, no, I haven't.

Speaker 2: 11:42

You have had an impact on your entire family because you had the courage to, you know, follow your heart where it was going and also kinda, like, open up to your community. So I felt scared and a lot of shame to do that in the beginning, but don't build it up too much in your edit because you will have a a massive ripple effect within your community for sure.

Speaker 1: 12:01

Yes. And just as the saying goes, misery loves company. Well, positivity is absolutely contagious.

Speaker 2: 12:09

I'm sorry. Yes. Absolutely. Yes. I totally agree.

Speaker 1: 12:12

And you you mentioned social media. So since the last time we talked, you were you were blowing up on social media. And I love your videos because you take what is kinda regarded or used to be regarded as, like, the serious, like, thing that we have to address in such a in such a, I don't know, ominous mode.

Speaker 2: 12:32

Mhmm.

Speaker 1: 12:33

And you make fun you make it fun. You make it like, let's have fun with this. Let's change. Let's be inspiring. Let's do let's be funny too.

Speaker 1: 12:40

You I mean, I sort of remember you running down the street in, like, a night robe or something in the snow carrying drinks. You know? Like, so you have a lot of fun fun stuff going. And Yeah. You're blown up then.

Speaker 1: 12:51

You've blown up since then. I've seen you, like, on national news and syndicated news. So, like, I I it's amazing to watch. Thank you. And how does it well, first, I'm just gonna ask you how how's it been?

Speaker 1: 13:04

How does it feel? You know, you Oh, know, all

Speaker 2: 13:07

well, it's such a thank you for your beautiful beautiful question question and and and and all all of of that. That. I yeah. I mean, it's very humbling. I mean, I've never had I've never felt like I was in a position to help people or, like, have an impact on someone's life.

Speaker 2: 13:20

And so it has been beautiful. I mean, there's I mean, I cry, like, almost every day at the the messages I get of, like, oh my gosh. I cut back 50% or, like, I cut this has helped my family. This has saved my relationship. This is you know, I mean, and I get messages from women like that around the world everywhere.

Speaker 2: 13:38

So social media is really beautiful in that way is that it's allowed me to connect with people in any location pretty much. And I'm it's an honor to be able to help normalize the conversation around alcohol and just, like you said, like, make it less taboo to discuss because it has previously been very binary. Like, you don't talk about it. You're fine. Have your drinks.

Speaker 2: 14:00

Make fun of it. It's super fun. Or, like, you have a problem. You need to go to AA or rehab. Like, this is an addiction conversation.

Speaker 2: 14:08

And I think what we've been seeing and what I hope to be a part of is, like, it's shifting more towards a wellness conversation, and it's not as binary as it once was. And, you know, it's like, I I think we know people are just not that black and white, and there are millions of people who would like to see how drinking less fits in their life. But if you only give them two options, ignore it or go to AA, they're gonna ignore it for years. I mean, that's what I did. I think that's what a lot of people did.

Speaker 2: 14:34

So I think, you know, the the whole conversation is shifting, and I'm honored to play a role in that and make it fun and lighthearted. And I wanted soberish mom to be all everything in my life, but also, like, the undertone is, like, you can have fun not drinking. And, like, I don't wanna go online and be fed videos of moms drinking all the time. I wanted it to be, like, a fun safe space for people. So while there certainly are a lot of serious topics and serious videos, a lot I mean, the majority are I try and keep it really lighthearted and fun.

Speaker 2: 15:03

And, that seems to be resonating, which is yeah. It's but it's a total honor, and it's also, like, shocking. Like, I I mean, I definitely have impostor syndrome some days where I'm like, me? I'm sure you feel that way. So do you ever feel that way where you're like, my podcast?

Speaker 2: 15:16

I'm like, Mike, your book changed my life. Like, how does that feel when I tell you that?

Speaker 1: 15:21

Yeah. It well, it always enforces, okay, this is exactly why I do everything I do. And it usually comes at the right time. You know? Yes.

Speaker 1: 15:30

When things are difficult, when it's a lot of work. Because the day to day is a lot of work. And Ton of

Speaker 2: 15:36

work.

Speaker 1: 15:36

But then something like that lands, and and it just it's it's wind in your sails.

Speaker 2: 15:40

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Awesome.

Speaker 2: 15:42

Anyone who has not read Mike's. Read it. It's really it was awesome.

Speaker 1: 15:47

Well, thank you, Nuita. I mean, it's always so flattering, and I really appreciate that you put the book out there and sent sent love my way. So that is like that always makes me feel good. That's more wind in my sail.

Speaker 2: 15:59

Yeah. Good. I'm so glad.

Speaker 1: 16:52

So you have all these conversations. You have a lot of interaction on social media, and, you know, we're coming up on the end of the year here. So give us a little bit of a review. Like, what have you witnessed over time? Have you seen any shifts happen?

Speaker 1: 17:05

I know that there were some big changes eighteen months ago Yeah. Happening. You know? Is there anything that you've seen or witnessed?

Speaker 2: 17:14

I think definitely this has been the biggest year, and hopefully, we'll continue every year. I hope I'm saying this where the shift, towards, like, cultural acceptance on drinking less is, like, more and more massive. It's just more people are drinking less than they ever have statistically. Wine sales are down, I mean, more than it has since, like, the prohibition. And you're seeing younger generations, you know, choosing not to drink or drinking way less than our generation.

Speaker 2: 17:44

And so I think you're just seeing a huge turning of the tides towards people being like, oh, why would I drink? Like, it's terrible for you. Like, now I know. I think our generation, there was, like, a huge public crisis of misinformation. We were told drinking red wine was good for you.

Speaker 2: 18:00

I mean, even after I gave birth to my child, this was not that long ago, seven years ago. You know, my OB GYN was like, you know, it's a lot of pressure. It's a lot of stress. Like, pour yourself a glass of wine, like, try and relax in the evenings. I mean so these are things that were being told to us.

Speaker 2: 18:15

Like, is helping you. Alcohol is reducing your stress and your anxiety, and it is a normal part of life. It's a normal part of parenting. And I'm not saying that you can't. I still drink occasionally.

Speaker 2: 18:26

But we this shift towards like, oh, wait. Alcohol's not actually helping my anxiety. It does for an hour, but it makes it, you know, four times worse for the next forty eight hours. Oh, wait. Alcohol is, like, you know, slowing down my recovery for my health goals.

Speaker 2: 18:41

I mean, it's just we're seeing more information come out. I think the biggest one of the biggest turning points of the year was when The US general surgeon came out with the, press release and and call for putting cancer label warnings on all alcoholic products, the same that are on cigarette and and cartons. And in that press release, I found the most shocking thing to be that less than half of Americans knew the correlation between cancer risks associated with drinking and yeah. The cancer risk associated with drinking. And and that was me for sure.

Speaker 2: 19:14

I mean, four years ago, I didn't know either. And, I think that just shines a light on, like, how much work there still is to do, but that we are seeing progress towards, like, making it more clear to people the risks you are taking by, you know, heavy drinking or moderate drinking. So, yeah, that to me when that came out, it was like and then you saw all these news stories about it, all these social media posts. I got, you know, flooded with DMs about it. And, I am curious to see if that actually does end up happening.

Speaker 2: 19:45

I have not followed it very closely. But something like that, a big old cancer label warning on your bottle of wine is gonna change a lot for people. It's gonna make people pause and and think about pouring that glass. So, yeah, just tons of tons of more public awareness, I think, has had a huge impact.

Speaker 1: 20:01

Yeah. Absolutely. I think I think you sort of nailed it there, and you said earlier something around it's a wellness issue. I think that that that's really is sort of the trend for this year. Right.

Speaker 1: 20:10

Because for me, it is. I know for sure, and I relate to your story, and I think most people do. I was drinking, and I just assumed, yeah, I think alcohol is probably bad, but not at the level that I'm drinking. It's probably really bad if you're drinking a fifth or whatever of, you know, Jack Daniels every single day or you're waking up and having drinks, but this doesn't really apply to me.

Speaker 2: 20:35

Right.

Speaker 1: 20:36

But that's that's not the truth at all, and we're seeing it more and more. And now the information's coming out. So I think that's so true, and that's actually my motivator these days more than anything. You know, I went from drinking too much to drinking in moderation. Mhmm.

Speaker 1: 20:50

Very happy. Could stay there. Doesn't have any impact on my life, negatively. Mhmm. But as far as, like, health goes, okay.

Speaker 1: 20:59

Maybe I wanna drink less just because I already know now that if I wanna be the healthiest I wanna be, which is one of my goals

Speaker 2: 21:07

Mhmm.

Speaker 1: 21:07

Maybe drinking even less would be a better, you know, better solution. I think that people are seeing that Yeah. Not just because it's causing issues. They want more energy and better sleep in that. I think that they just know that it's just not healthy, and they should probably do something.

Speaker 2: 21:24

Yeah. And I think, like, once you're when you're in a rut, when you're in a habit with, as long as you you know, it's so easy to imagine giving it up. And it feels like such a huge sacrifice that this is like my treat. This is what I look forward to at the end of the day. And then once you are able to break out of that habit, which is not easy, I mean, it takes work.

Speaker 2: 21:45

But once you get there, you slowly become, like, you know, more and more disenchanted with alcohol. And so when you like, your story, you're maybe moderately drink you were drinking heavily or whatever you call it, and then Right. Less and then less. Then when you're only having a drink once in a while, it's like the dark side of getting healthy. You really feel it.

Speaker 2: 22:05

And then you're really like, oh, man. Was that even worth it? Like, I hadn't even drank for a couple weeks. I've been totally fine. Now I had a couple, you know, glass of wine at this party and, like, I didn't sleep well.

Speaker 2: 22:16

I feel like crap. Like, I don't think it really even added that much to my night. Maybe next time, like, I won't even do that. And it's like, one good decision begets another good decision. And that was absolutely my journey too.

Speaker 2: 22:30

Similar to you, it was like, my goal was to cut back 50%. So that would have been a still about, like, six or seven drinks a week. And it was like, as I kept drinking less, I was like, I feel so amazing. Like, I don't need this in my life anymore. It just becomes a decision, which is, again, like, I will never start stop harping on this because it is a huge piece of negative feedback I get daily.

Speaker 2: 22:50

It's like, you should only talk about sobriety. You should only be helping people get sober. There's no health benefit to alcohol. Like, why are you doing this? It's like, because harm reduction is one of the most successful ways to help people cut back on a negative habit, whether that's, you know, alcohol or sugar, whatever it is.

Speaker 2: 23:08

And so I will never stop, like, sharing my message because it's like, it will lead you down a path that you're meant to be led down. Now I still will drink once in a while and kinda like you said, like, it doesn't have a negative impact on my life. I like having the option. And as controversial as maybe it sounds, like giving myself the option to drink once in a while led me to drinking less than I ever planned. So There

Speaker 1: 23:32

were so many nights where I sat there, and I'm like, I've never had a drink for a long time. I might have one tonight. And I'm like, this is gonna two drinks is gonna ruin my sleep tonight. No. Thanks.

Speaker 1: 23:43

And I'll just like, nah. It's alright. Like you know? So, yeah, I feel that too. Well, here's the other thing that you mentioned there around you should only be talking about sobriety and this and that, and then there's no health benefits.

Speaker 1: 23:58

True. But you can and some people might push back on this, and that's okay. But you can also look at there's health ramifications for isolation. There's health ram ramifications for not being social. And for a lot of people, without going crazy and getting blackout drunk, if they if just going out and having a couple drinks, get some social and being around people and regular, and that fits into their lifestyle, there's health benefits to that as well and and stress relief.

Speaker 1: 24:27

So there's, like you know, everything will kill you in some way. You know? Right.

Speaker 2: 24:31

Right. Right. But

Speaker 1: 24:33

I also think there's a lot of, like, indirect ways that there are there are benefits Yeah. That come to it for some people.

Speaker 2: 24:40

Yes. There is a social element to it that just cannot be denied. And it lets you know, reduces some some barriers and when you're in those social situations. Do you, have you read David Atia's book, Outlive? Or do you follow him?

Speaker 1: 24:53

I've it in parts.

Speaker 2: 24:55

Yeah. God. I could barely get through it. It is really dense. But he's done a few podcasts on it, and he's someone who drinks occasionally.

Speaker 2: 25:03

He gets a lot of feedback on it. He drinks. He's like, I maybe have six or seven drinks a week. And he, was talking about this exact thing in the podcast I listened to with him that was like, these social benefits, like, if you go out and you have a drink, the social benefits, like, are there. And so if it's not gonna do there's there's no study that shows having one to four drinks a month is having any negative impact on your health.

Speaker 2: 25:27

Truly. There's not a study out there depending on your lifestyle and other factors for most normal healthy adults. So when you factor those things in, I think it's yeah. I I just think there's so many ways to look at it and coming at it from a nonjudgmental place is the most important because that's whenever I get those messages, it's like, I know who's sending them. And it's you know, moderation is not the right fit for everyone.

Speaker 2: 25:51

And the only way to find out though is to try. I mean, there's like, you you have to start somewhere. So, you know, just giving people an open place to start and then find the path that's right for you whether you cut back significantly, whether you decide to go a 100% sober, that's an amazing beautiful thing. And people often ask me too, like, you think you'll ever be a 100% sober? I'm like, sure.

Speaker 2: 26:10

Probably. I don't know. Maybe. Like, but I don't put pressure on myself to do that. I don't you know, I just I just try and find what feels good for me in the moment and, like, is this gonna have any negative impact on me the next day?

Speaker 2: 26:21

Or and and those are the questions I ask myself. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 26:25

I feel you on that because it's like, is it the same way I don't like labels? I don't like Mhmm. Am I mind am I mindful drinker? Am I sober sober? I I don't know.

Speaker 1: 26:35

Like, you know, I just you know, sometime maybe this year, I won't drink. Maybe next year, I I will drink in moderation, be mindful drinker. I don't wanna put a bookend that I can't go past, I guess, is

Speaker 2: 26:47

Yep. Right.

Speaker 1: 26:48

And that's what I kinda hear you say it as well. Mhmm.

Speaker 2: 26:51

Yes. Personally. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 26:52

Well, you so you talk on social media a lot, obviously, soberish mom Right. With women. And, you know, over the past year, where do you think that moms feel the most pressure around drinking just in general, I guess?

Speaker 2: 27:07

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think especially if you are coming from a friend group or family that are heavy drinkers, when you'd make the decision to cut back or not drink, it can feel really scary and and very challenging if that's kind been the dynamic of your social circle. And and that's what I hear the most from women coming to me is like, I wanna stop reaching for the damn wine, but, like, we every Friday night, we go out in the driveway with our kids, and, like, we share a bottle of wine. And so I think, you know, for many women, it's alcohol has become code for, like, I need a break.

Speaker 2: 27:45

And and the one function that it plays in so many people's lives is, like, it's just a way to turn off that part of your brain for a second, obsesses over the analysis of our parenting decision. Should I co sleep? Should I, like, send my kids to daycare or not? You know? This is a mother's or parent's brain all day long.

Speaker 2: 28:04

And so alcohol allows us to just quiet that and gives us that mental break we're so desperately seeking. And it also, you know, combine that with the social you know, massive social acceptance and encouragement of drinking. It's you're up against a big enemy. And so I think for what I hear most from women is the socializing feels scary. Because when you're part of the mommy wine culture, you're part of the tribe, like, it's all good.

Speaker 2: 28:29

But then when you're not, it can feel very ostracizing and scary to, like, you know, talk about that. So, that's why I think people feel the most pressure. And I think, as we kinda touched on before, like, don't ever forget though. Like, you have no idea how that other mom is feeling the next morning. Like, I'm sure all my friends when I finally felt comfortable enough to talk to them about it were like, you?

Speaker 2: 28:52

Like, you're fine. You don't what do you mean? You're fine. Like, you don't need to take a break from, you know, like, drinking. And part of that is like because they have the same drinking habits.

Speaker 2: 29:01

It's the shame here. Right? It's like, well, if I tell someone I'm worried and I need to stop breaking drinking, then they're gonna be like, woah. What does that mean to me? What are you what are you talking about?

Speaker 2: 29:11

So I think don't you know, it is it feels scary. But what I found was that most of my friends also have cut weight or have felt more comfortable talking to me or became a safe place for them. But for me personally and for anyone listening, like, it it feels scary. I think it approach it from a place of like what you wanna do and what your goals are has nothing to do with anyone else. Like, just like you can't force anyone to quit drinking.

Speaker 2: 29:40

Like, it it's you can't, you know, you you're not living their life for them. It should just be a decision about what's best for you. And you will be surprised at how many people show up for you. And, you might be surprised at a shift in your friend group too. I mean, that definitely happened for me.

Speaker 2: 29:56

It's like the things I used to do and found really fun weren't as fun to me anymore. Like, I don't wanna go wine tasting. I don't wanna go to a party where everyone's trashed. It's not as fun. And so I started finding community in other places, which is really challenging for a parent when you're you know, I can't go to a yoga group at 5PM on a Tuesday.

Speaker 2: 30:13

I have my kids. I have young kids. I know you do too. It's like, you are limited. So I go to the gym in the morning, and, like, now I have this whole 6AM gym crew.

Speaker 2: 30:23

People of all ages, like, up to, you know, from my age up to their eighties and, like, just this weekend, we're having a game night, like and nobody is drinking. They asked me to bring Cava because they all love Cava now. And it's like, this is my one of my most cherished friend groups that I did not know existed. So it it's easy to just, like, focus on on where you are right now, but don't forget there is an entire world out there of people who might have more similar, like, you know, habits that that you do now and and connecting them with those people. I think through physical activity is one of the most important ways.

Speaker 2: 30:55

But if you're not into fitness, you know, art class, things like music, whatever it is that you are able to get away from the kids for a moment and go to, like, there's a whole world out there, and it's it's so easy to forget that, you know, and just kinda stay in your in your your set group.

Speaker 1: 31:11

Absolutely. It definitely is. And I that this is one of the most challenging subjects whenever I talk on the podcast about strategies and tactics that you can do with alternatives because there's so much out there and people are so different. I think you and I are very alike in that. Like, we are more drawn to physical activity and some of those things, but there are people that are that's not at all what gets them excited.

Speaker 1: 31:35

Yeah. But there are, if you look for it

Speaker 2: 31:37

Yes.

Speaker 1: 31:37

Out there Yes. Things to do.

Speaker 2: 31:40

Yes. Absolutely. And I and I think in social situations, like, it took me a while to gain my confidence back in those. I was really intimidated by them in the beginning not drinking. So practice, practice, practice is something that you always talk about that is that is so clear to me now.

Speaker 2: 31:56

Like, one of the best ways to think about this is like, you go to a party, you reach for a glass of wine, and you drink it, and you get this massive reward. You get this dopamine rush to your brain. You relax. Like, it feels great. Well, you just wired your brain for that next time you're in that scenario at a party, at a bar with this certain group of people.

Speaker 2: 32:14

Your brain has that hardwired to tell you this is when you drink. So the you need to rewire your brain and, like, you have to do that by practice. That is just the bottom line I found. I mean, tell me if you think I'm wrong. It's like, is there another faster way?

Speaker 2: 32:28

I found there wasn't. It was just like I just had to get the reps in. And that first time I went out with my girlfriends, everyone was drinking except me. It was hard. And I made it home that night, and I was like, oh, I am so damn proud of myself.

Speaker 2: 32:40

I woke up, and I was like, I'm so freaking proud of myself. I'm in a great workout. Second time, it was a little easier. Now I don't even think about it. It doesn't even occur to me.

Speaker 2: 32:48

I mean, it's like, it's just not wired in my brain anymore. So that was the simplest way for me to look at it. And I think I mean, do you think there's any, like, other faster way? I was like, it just took time. It just takes time.

Speaker 1: 33:01

Yeah. It does take a little time. Like, as you're saying that, it reminds me of, like, that we have a group of friends that we always enjoyed having drinks together. We'd go over to their house. Great great place to hang out.

Speaker 1: 33:12

Mhmm. And at first, it was difficult. You know, I don't think I'm gonna have drinks here. Now I don't even think about it. Right?

Speaker 1: 33:20

Yeah. So I think it just happens, you know, over time, and you can't expect you might, if you're in the beginning, need to skip it one or two times and get a little more space and then feel more comfortable in that space without it. And that might be uncomfortable, but it's manageable and then you can move ahead. Right. You you know you, so I think

Speaker 2: 33:40

Right. Right.

Speaker 1: 33:41

You know? You know, well, before while we're still in the mommy, wine culture

Speaker 2: 33:48

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 33:48

So it was not new when we talked, but maybe more newly talked about. Right? And it's it there's been more things in the headline, more openness. Do you think that any of that is starting to be broken up as far as how tight knit it was and that you almost had to defect to to make a change. Right?

Speaker 1: 34:10

Like, have you never made any difference?

Speaker 2: 34:12

I have. I have. And I don't know if it's just because of my job and what I do and, like, you know, most people know now. But I I definitely haven't I guess when I experienced this was when my son started kindergarten after we had talked last year. I was, you know, met all these new moms parents.

Speaker 2: 34:33

And then this kind of, you know, is gonna kinda become your social circle for the next maybe ten years because you're gonna be in school with these people. And, and so I felt a little nervous about, like, being invited to their homes or birthday parties, and there's alcohol being served. And then having that first time you tell someone like, oh, I don't like, I'm good. I don't really drink. Was like, I was nervous.

Speaker 2: 34:56

And then it was like half the moms there weren't drinking or they were having like a THC seltzer. That's a huge shift I've noticed too is that there's a lot of THC products and I'm seeing a lot of headlines about this booming industry and that a lot of moms or parents are switching from alcohol to THC. So I was at a party recently where they were serving those, and I was like, oh, wow. This is the first time I've ever been in an event where that's been served. And I think that's great.

Speaker 2: 35:23

And, and so I definitely have noticed a shift in that. And then simply by, you know, starting to see more headlines and things about, like, it's a it's nice to offer non alcoholic options. I personally wanna go places now too, even big parties, like, it's really common to see athletic brewing or, you know, something above just a LaCroix offered. Like, there's some nonalcoholic beers. There's some different types of mocktails.

Speaker 2: 35:48

And I don't think you saw that five years ago. I don't think that really I don't think they were serving nonalcoholic beer at parties five years ago. I I don't. So I think that it has been a huge shift and, like, the nonalcoholic market exploding has been really helpful because now people can easily find products. Whereas a few years ago, like, you had soda or a duals, and that was it.

Speaker 2: 36:10

And so Yeah. Having a really thoughtful, you know, offering for guests, something I talk about a lot is is really nice because it makes everyone feel included. And then you just you don't even notice what people are drinking or holding a koozie around an NA beer. Nobody knows, you know, and it kind of eliminates some of that pressure. So, yeah, I've definitely noticed that.

Speaker 2: 36:28

How about you? I mean, I know you travel all over. So do you notice different, like, cultural drinking trends as you go?

Speaker 1: 36:37

Yeah. You know, that's a good question. I think to your point, you're definitely seeing it more and more. I mean, just every time like, I left the country. So I was gone.

Speaker 1: 36:46

We were in Spain, for about six months, and their nonalcoholic culture has been around for a long time. It was like a public health initiative, I don't know, decades ago. So NA beer, even when I went and lived in Spain previously years, I remember see and this was before I made any changes. I remember seeing nonalcoholic everywhere in the grocery store Wow. And being and being like, why?

Speaker 1: 37:11

But it's fine. You know? I liked it, and it's actually quite good. But to what you said so I was gone for a while, then I came back, and then I went into, like, a Sprouts and also, like, a Costco. And I was like, woah.

Speaker 1: 37:28

Look at all the stuff. Like, it wasn't there. So, like, I time machined it forward, and it was definitely different.

Speaker 2: 37:35

Right? Yes. Yes. Very different. Something as simple as having the offerings there.

Speaker 1: 37:40

Yeah. For sure. Yeah. Alright. So let's round out this this interview because the next one we're gonna get into dry is January.

Speaker 1: 37:46

So after this past year, what gives you the most hope about where mindful drinking is headed?

Speaker 2: 37:52

Oh, it's like we're just at the tip. I mean, we're just starting. Oh, I think as younger generations reach the drinking age, like, less and less people are gonna be drinking, there's gonna be a huge shift in the options available and the cultural acceptance of not drinking. Like, where's just this the numbers are staggering in such a short amount of time that I mean, right after COVID, there was a huge boom in people drinking more. And so it's it's only been a few years that now we're seeing a huge swing to the other side.

Speaker 2: 38:22

So I think we're just at the start. I can't wait to see where it goes. And I think just people being more aware of the health risks and, like, being able to choose how alcohol fits in your life is just becoming more culturally acceptable, and there will be less pressure to drink in these situations. And, like, my dream is is kinda like you described. My dream is that you walk into an event, and it's like, would you like the regular champagne or non alcoholic champagne?

Speaker 2: 38:43

And, like, you get to choose, there's no eyebrows raised. It's just it's just so common. So that's my dream for one day, and I do think that we will get there. And I am yeah. I am at events a lot more, and it's there's there's so many amazing options.

Speaker 2: 38:57

So, yeah, I think I think we're just seeing the start of it, which is exciting. Think you're definitely could drink more than ours. Right? I mean, like,

Speaker 1: 39:05

who Right.

Speaker 2: 39:06

We I think we hit the top.

Speaker 1: 39:09

I don't think my kids will be having beer bongs the way I did Right. Them into a funnel

Speaker 2: 39:15

and everything. So curious. Like, I was in the Greek system, and so that was the kick start of my habits. Like, I didn't even drink. Like, I was not a drinker, and then I joined a sorority, and that changed very quickly.

Speaker 2: 39:26

So I'm like, I'm so curious when my kids get in college what the drinking culture will be like. I'm, like, very curious. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 39:34

Yeah. It's very, really interesting. And, you know, when you said that, I know I'm gonna take we were rounding it out, but it made me think of I so I recently took my daughter to go see a Joe concert. Have you do you know who that is?

Speaker 2: 39:46

No. Uh-uh.

Speaker 1: 39:47

He's this he's a singer. He sings that Chicago song, but he but he also is the, like, the lead older guy in stranger things.

Speaker 2: 39:56

Oh, okay. Uh-huh. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 39:59

As my wife and daughter said, he's the he's super dreamy. Anyway, so we went to his concert. And, yeah, they had athletic brewing and some athletic other options behind there. So non NA and, you know, people that were younger were drinking them. So definitely a trend.

Speaker 1: 40:17

And It's not a fad. It's it's a trend that's here to stay, and we'll keep watching it as in full.

Speaker 2: 40:23

Yeah. Absolutely. Exciting.

Speaker 1: 40:25

Well, Katie, thanks so much. This has been a lot of fun, and then we're gonna jump into dry ish January in our next episode.

Speaker 2: 40:32

Awesome. Thanks so much, Mike.

Speaker 1: 40:34

If this conversation resonated, Katie and I will be back to talk about dry and dryish January. What actually works and how to approach it without pressure. That will release the day after Christmas. See you then.