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Here on Equine Assisted World. We look at the cutting edge and the best practices currently being developed and, established in the equine assisted field. This can be psychological, this can be neuropsych, this can be physical, this can be all of the conditions that human beings have that these lovely equines, these beautiful horses that we work with, help us with.
Your Host is New York Times bestselling author Rupert Isaacson. Long time human rights activist, Rupert helped a group of Bushmen in the Kalahari fight for their ancestral lands. He's probably best known for his autism advocacy work following the publication of his bestselling book "The Horse Boy" and "The Long Ride Home" where he tells the story of finding healing for his autistic son. Subsequently he founded New Trails Learning Systems an approach for addressing neuro-psychiatric conditions through horses, movement and nature. The methods are now used around the world in therapeutic riding program, therapy offices and schools for special needs and neuro-typical children.
You can find details of all our programs and shows on www.RupertIsaacson.com.
Rupert Isaacson: Welcome
to Equine Assisted World.
I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson,
New York Times best selling
author of The Horse Boy, The Long
Ride Home, and The Healing Land.
Before I jump in with today's
guest, I just want to say a huge
thank you to you, our audience,
for helping to make this happen.
I have a request.
If you like what we do, please
like, subscribe, tell a friend.
It really helps us get this work done.
As you might know from my
books, I'm an autism dad.
And over the last 20 years,
we've developed several
equine assisted, neuroscience
backed certification programs.
If you'd like to find out more
about them, go to newtrailslearning.
com.
So without further ado,
let's meet today's guest.
Welcome back to Equine Assisted World.
We are down in the far
southern hemisphere today.
I've got Nic Lewis from Horses Are Us
NZ, New Zealand, Kiwi land who has been
running a equine assisted program down
in the middle of the North Island for
quite some time and works with all sorts
of populations in a rather beautiful
environment down there in the mountains.
And I feel that a lot of
us who are involved in this
equine assisted world, it'sâ¦
Maybe it's just 'cause it's me and I live
in the northern hemisphere, but I feel
that there is sometimes a bit too much of
a focus on the sort of Europe, USA scene.
And although there are innumerable
nuances to how horses can help people up
here in the northern part of the world,
I do know with talking to my colleagues
down south, that there are also specific
things down in other parts of the world
that maybe we don't come across so much
up in our northern, northern fastnesses
and also that we can really learn from.
And plus the fact that the old school New
Zealand horse people are very, very good.
When I was growing up, you know,
it was Mark Todd, wasn't it?
Who was the superstar eventer
that came out of New Zealand.
But I met, when I was training eventers
and hunters and things like that as
a young lad in the USA, I met so many
Kiwi boys and girls who were up there
seeking their fortunes like I was.
And they were all really, really good,
and there are some reasons for that
which I'm g- we're gonna find out.
And N- Nic, I happen to know, is one
of those really, really good people
'cause I've seen the pictures- ⦠and
the videos of what she does down there.
So, hold on to your hats because the stuff
she does is actually quite crazy and wild.
Not the stuff she does with the
clients, but the stuff that she
does for her own horsemanship.
So Nic, thanks for coming on the show.
Tell us who you are and what you do
Nik Lewis: Yeah.
Firstly, thanks for having me, Ropet.
It's, yeah, it's an honor,
and I feel quite humbled.
Firstly, what do we do?
We, yeah, we do equine facilitated
learning in Central North.
And yeah, we work with young
people adults, with anything.
We don't have a specific code.
We work with neurodiverse, we work
with social emotional, we work with
riding, we work with whatever the
client so needs or wants to work on.
So that's what we do.
There's no set parameters for us, and
if we don't know, we go and find out,
and hence that's how I found you.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: When you
say, "We don't knowâ¦
If we don't know, we go and find
out," I love that because horse people
are very bossy people, and equine
assisted people can reflect that.
And sometimes you find people very much
stuck in a c- in a certain methodology or
you know, "I do this, I don't do that."
In my experience with you,
that hasn't been the case.
There seems to be a more
of an open-mindedness.
Where do you think that comes from?
Why, why are the Kiwis less rigid
in, you know, "I do hypotherapy,"
or, "I do horse foil," "I do,"
"Path International," whatever.
Why, why are the Kiwis more flexible?
Why, why do they take a more, I would call
it, rational approach of mix and match?
Nik Lewis: I suppose when you were
asking or talking then, all I could
think about was number eight wire.
And so number eight wire
is a classic kiwi wire.
It's a, quite a fat wire, and there's
a kiwi saying about you just get
a piece of number eight wire, a
bit of twine, and you just fix it.
And I think that's our attitude is if
you don't know, you gotta work it out.
Because, like you say, we're
at the bottom of the world.
We don't have a huge amount of access
to a lot of stuff like you do in Europe
or the States, nor the population.
So we've gotta work things out ourselves,
and I think that just gives us the can-do
attitude or we can do this, or we can
jimmy it in a way that will make it work.
So I think, I think that's our mentality,
and that's our, our grittiness.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
It's sort of pioneer
mentality really, isn't it?
Yeah ⦠in in, you know, my family's
South African and there's a, there's
a saying in Afrikaans, which is the
Dutch, type of Dutch they speak down
there, which is, "Ons sal 'n plan maak,"
which is, it means we'll make a plan.
And it's a standard thing that y-
people say in response to, "Well,
how are we gonna do it then?"
Say, "Well, we'll make a plan."
And I, I very much like that 'cause
it admits, I don't know in this five
minutes, but I have an optimistic
assurance of a positive outcome or
expectation of a pos- positive outcome.
Because in my experience, there usually
is one, but it usually comes with
first admitting that we don't know, and
then, as you say, going to find out.
And I think that that is sometimes lacking
in parts of the world where, as you say,
there's, there's more access to resources.
So in a funny way, people can
or feel they can afford to-
Sit inside a sort of a wheelhouse
rather than saying, "Well, I don't know.
I, we had to build the boat out
of matchsticks and bits of rubber.
So, you know, I don't even know where
the wheelhouse is, but l- looks like
there's a storm coming, so let's
figure out what to do with that sail."
You know?
And I think that's, that's sort of
very much what reflects with you.
Why did you get involved in it, though?
And it's interesting to me, you know, a
lot ⦠It, it, it ⦠We often picture
other people in other parts of the world
in rather stereotypical ways, 'cause
that's just how the human mind works.
So I know that you're down there
in these, these beautiful mountains
in the North Central North Island.
People up here, you know, dealing with
urban populations or, and the, you
know, the obvious problems that come
with that or so, would go, "Oh, well,
it's sort of a paradise down there.
What could possibly, how could possibly
be needed, you know, to have, you
know, horses, equine interventions?"
'Cause, you know, everyone down there is
sort of rugged and healthy and they're
We know people are people wherever we go.
But you're in this very kind of
rural also quite independent, quite
resourceful human environment.
Where is the need for an
equine-assisted program?
Nik Lewis: So Just to
kinda go back a little bit.
So I, in New Zealand, equine
assisted learning is relatively new.
So we've been operating eight years.
They kinda get us, and absolutely
no disrespect, they kinda get
us mixed up with RDA, which
is riding with- Who is they?
The public or- Okay ⦠Joe Public think.
Yeah.
Joe Public.
So it takes a bit for, for the
general public to kinda understand
that we're not riding for disabled
or riding for development.
We're actually more client, well, m-
m- more client driven and more client
based and more flexible in what we do.
But in New Zealand we still, and to go
to your relevant question, we still deal
with what everybody is dealing with in
the world at the moment, which is a lot
of dysregulation a lot of disconnection.
We, we, we have seen lots of
that come through our kids at
the moment, our young people.
We're getting lots and lots
of more neurodiverse people.
Young people with a, you know,
autism, ADHD, ODD, all the
labels you can possibly think of.
So we're seeing more and more in that.
And as we're seeing more and more in
that, people are looking for alternative
ways for kids to find their calm.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
Nik Lewis: And that's where we jump in.
That's where we come in and it's,
let's just deal with who rocks in
on the day, and let's just roll
with what we need to roll with.
So there's structure, but it might not
look like there's structure, you know?
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
Nik Lewis: There's always an end goal, but
how we get there is, can look like this.
how we get there.
Yeah.
So yeah, we, we deal with lots
of, lots of different, lots
of different, mm, ev- whoa.
What's the word I'm looking for?
We deal with lots of
different personalities.
We deal with lots of different
organizations, from schools through to
personal, through to government agencies.
We have
Our clientele is growing.
Yeah, what we do is, is
starting to get out there.
A lot more people are seeing what
we're doing, and we've had clients,
like we're in Central North.
We've had clients from two
hours away drive for two hours.
We're like half an hour out of
the closest town, and that's,
people easily will drive to us.
We've got, yeah.
We run play date days for kids under five.
We run teenage takiwatanga days,
which is the Maori word for autistic.
So we have a whole group of
young adults that- What's the
Rupert Isaacson: Maori
word for autistic again?
Tell us that slowly for our
Nik Lewis: normal brains.
Okay.
Takiwatanga.
Rupert Isaacson: Takiwatanga.
Nik Lewis: Which in ⦠Yeah.
Which in translation means
in their own time and space.
Rupert Isaacson: In
your own time and space.
That's such a good, that's such a
better description of it than selfism.
Nik Lewis: Mm.
Rupert Isaacson: What auto- autism means.
Huh.
Nik Lewis: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, I
learned something right there.
Thank you.
One more time.
Welcome.
Say it one more time so
we can write it down.
Nik Lewis: Taki.
Taki.
Takiwa-
Rupert Isaacson: Wa-
⦠Nik Lewis: tanga
⦠Rupert Isaacson: tanga.
Taki, not takin, but takin.
Takiwatanga.
Taki-
Nik Lewis: T-A-K-E, yeah.
W-A-T-A-N-G-A
Rupert Isaacson: Takiwatanga.
Okay.
Thank you.
Mm.
All right.
Nik Lewis: You're welcome.
Yeah.
So.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
Nik Lewis: Mm.
Rupert Isaacson: Go ahead.
Nik Lewis: Yeah, so like I was
saying, so I kind of lost my train
of thought a bit, but that's okay.
Well,
Rupert Isaacson: okay.
No worries.
I'd, I'd like to bring you back to it.
There's, there's ⦠Okay.
Go
Nik Lewis: on then.
Rupert Isaacson: You, you're talking
about all those populations, which
of course, as you know, yeah,
people are, people are people.
They exist everywhere.
However, you're in a very rural
part of the world, and it's not like
you're like right on the outskirts
of Auckland or something like that.
So I imagine that the population density
around you is actually relatively small.
What made you start there in that rather
remote place, and how do you fi- Like
how far are you from a large urban
center, and are you pulling in from
there, or is there actually so much
neurodiversity and need even in that
rural catchment area that you're in?
You know, I'm, I'm a bit intrigued by
that given that you're quite remote.
Nik Lewis: Yeah.
Yeah, we are quite remote.
And yeah, we're 25 minutes on a good
day to- From ⦠to, from Taupo.
Rupert Isaacson: Taupo.
Taupo.
Nik Lewis: And, well,
yeah, by the big lake.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Nik Lewis: So we're 25 minutes on
a good day, depending on traffic.
We are 40 minutes from Tokoroa.
We ⦠Yeah.
And we pull from all sorts.
We have a young girl that
comes from Taumarunui.
We've had a young girl come across
from Tauranga, so that's like,
yeah, two and a half hours away.
Lots from Rotorua, which is
about an hour drive from us.
And obviously from the local
towns, local communities.
We, yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: How do they find
out about you if they're coming
from those cities further away?
Nik Lewis: Nine times out
of 10, it's word of mouth.
Rupert Isaacson: Interesting.
Nik Lewis: Mm.
Rupert Isaacson: Interesting.
Nik Lewis: We don't do
a lot of advertising.
We are of the belief that the
universe will look after us.
We're of the belief that the universe
will bring the people that need
us when they need us, and that's
what's happened for eight years.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Now you say people get you mixed up with
RDA, Riding for the Disabled, which is
of course when I was a boy was the only
game in town in the UK at any rate.
And although I know that it's a
misconception, you know, o- one tended
to look at it as a boy in a this isn't
very exciting sort of a way saying, you
know, it just seems to be bossy horsey
ladies with good hearts leading kids
around in circles in arenas trying to
get them to behave well and sort of
giving them a nice time with the ponies.
And then, of course, it's obviously
developed enormously and there are all
sorts of good practitioners within RDA.
But one of the things I've felt over
the years is that it's still very
much rooted in a sort of hierarchical
outlook in that, n- now I could be
wrong and people who are RDAers, you can
correct me in the comments below, and
I'm certainly willing to be corrected.
And actually I, I do want to get
some good RDAers on the show here.
It's just that I've met quite a few and
in the course of the years it felt rather
like talking to the sort of leadership of
the pony club mums that I grew up with,
who were good-hearted and were giving
to the community, and all of that stuff.
There's no criticism.
And at the same time, they were not
really willing to look outside of
their thing, and coming with a lot
of, frankly, social prejudice, which
was perhaps inevitable given that they
were coming themselves from rather
sheltered, privileged backgrounds in
the shires of, you know, the money
towards the end of, of, of the UK.
Okay, everything's gotâ¦
You know, and it had patronage from
Princess Margaret, and I mean, not
Princess Anne and, and so on and so on.
And it was very mu- And the hierarchy
was class, and the hierarchy was also- Mm
⦠I am the one needing you, I'm okay, you're
the person needing help sort of thing.
Now that's all entirely natural
given how it evolved, and I,
there's no condemnation there.
It's just that it's limited.
You're coming from a completely
different outlook, but do you feel
that is RDA in New Zealand, does
it reflect the limitations, do you
feel, that I just talked about?
And if so, why?
Because you guys, I know you are
ex-British colony, but you guys are
a little bit more class fluid than we
are in the UK and that sort of thing.
So how, how did those
limitations ar- arise?
Did you encounter them,
and what have you done?
How did you break away from that?
Nik Lewis: So I've worked, I
haven't worked within an RDA.
I've been on the peripheral of RDA.
And I, I love what they do.
But I just think it's very outcome-focused
rather than client-focused.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Can you,
Nik Lewis: can you- That's, that's-
Rupert Isaacson: Can you, can you
elaborate on what's the difference between
outcome-focused and client-focused?
Nik Lewis: So they'll have set, no
matter how your horse might turn up on
that day or how your child or client
or who you're working with might turn
on, up that day, they stick to, my
understanding is that they stick to
a particular activity curriculum.
And that's it.
And for me, that, that just
doesn't sit within my realm.
That just, that's not how
I work or how I wanna roll.
'Cause you know, you'llâ¦
Yeah, if you put a horse in from the
paddock and he's not having a good day
So our, our clients learn to work with
their horses however they come in.
Our horses learn to work with our
horse, our clients however they are.
It's who walks in on the day.
Okay.
So, you know, we've had a young nonâ¦
well, not, a young man,
I suppose he's 29 now.
He works with a Thoroughbred
that can be a little bit jumpy.
He can be a little bit of a big orange.
And one day the farmer was moving
a herd of cows, and there was no
way that that horse was settling.
So the young man took the horse and worked
him in the round pen, worked him and just
walked with him and talked with him until
he calmed down, and that was our day.
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
So the client became the
regulator for the horse-
Nik Lewis: Yeah
⦠Rupert Isaacson: rather than the
horse- Yeah ⦠the regulator for the
Nik Lewis: client.
Was then the regulator.
Yeah.
So they just changed roles.
And like- That's cool ⦠I couldn't get
this horse on that day to, to regulate.
I c- he was just like bouncing,
and I'm like, "I don't know
how this is gonna roll."
So I'm very honest with my clients.
I'm like, "He's not in a good space."
Although the young man might
be non-verbal, he's very un-
he understands everything.
So, you know, so I'm like, "We
won't be getting on him or doing
anything super big with him today.
We need to get him to settle."
And so he just undid his lead rope,
went, "Come on," and off they went.
And he just walked and talked
and walked and talked to him,
and I'm just like blown away.
Rupert Isaacson: Wow.
There's so much to unpack
in that situation- Mm
uh, psychologically, cognitively and
so much to unpack in the role reversal.
I think, I think that was- Mm ⦠was
that, that was what I was trying to
express with the sort of that hierarchical
approach of if I'm always the giver of
the therapy, if I'm always the service
provider, you are always the service user.
Mm.
Then how do you ever grow?
As you know, our TAKING program
is all about turning the service
user into the service provider.
But-
Nik Lewis: Mm
⦠Rupert Isaacson: surely, surely that
is the, surely that is our goal.
But I'm also intrigued, you say the man
was non-verbal, and yet he was there
walking and talking with the horse.
How was he using his voice?
Nik Lewis: He's, he's got some words.
And, like, he's been with us a
few years now, so I know what his
words are, if that makes sense.
Mm.
Yeah.
They're not necessarily
true English as we know it.
But he's got his own language, and his
body language and facial expressions, and
his personally developed sign language.
You can have whole huge
conversations with him.
Rupert Isaacson: How old is this man?
Nik Lewis: 29.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
And what was the outcome on that day?
There we are using the word outcome,
for the horse rather than for him.
Nik Lewis: The outcome for him was
I, I think he, he felt empowered.
I think he felt like he
could do the hard stuff.
It wasn't, you know.
And I ⦠And the horse, like, was
settled and very relaxed by the end of it.
And just that empowerment and autonomy and
being able to make choices for himself.
Mm.
And working out what the outcome
could be, and if it didn't
quite go well, he adjusted.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Nik Lewis: You know?
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I suppose for us, the way we
work as well, which is a little bit
different, is when we match a horse
with a human, they stay with that horse.
Unless- Oh, okay So there's big
relational, big relational developments.
Rupert Isaacson: What if you have to
be- Yeah, so- ⦠flexible if that
horse is not sound that day or whatever?
Can you not ⦠Do you, would you
then not put them with another
Nik Lewis: horse?
We do.
We are flexible in that way.
Okay.
So most of them have a plan B horse.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Nik Lewis: Yep, they have a plan B horse.
With this particular man, if his horse
has got an abscess or something, or the
vet's coming to dig there we keep him
in- totally involved in it We've kept
him totally involved in the process.
It's like, no, we have to do Tess's
foot today, which is the horse today.
We have to do his foot 'cause
he's got an abscess, see?
He's got a hole in his hoof.
We d- yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
So it could be a horse care day or a
horse- Mm ⦠activity day, depending
on- Yeah ⦠where the horse is at.
That's very cool.
The, the, the other thing with that, that
y- I like the idea that you have a plan
B horse because, you know, if you hadâ¦
I'm just thinking about my
son, Rowan, when he was much
younger, and his need for- Mm.
You know, he would've not understood y-
you know, that when you're relying on a c-
certain cognitive level of understanding-
Nik Lewis: Mm ⦠to
Rupert Isaacson: accept a situation,
that one can then end up, you know,
doing harm, and that's what I like,
i- if you stick rigidly to that.
That's why I like that you say we
have the plan B horse because that
shows a flexibility there with what
you're doing, that if the preference
is for the relation with that one
animal, but yeah, we understand that we
can't always have that perfect world.
No ⦠that's rational.
Nic, how did you get
involved in this, and why?
Because you, like me, have a hunting
background, and I want to get into
why the Kiwis are such good horse
people with this hunting background,
'cause there is one very good reason.
But yeah.
Mm.
How did you, how did you evolve?
Let's, let's start with you
as a kid, take you to now.
Nik Lewis: Ooh, a child.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Nik Lewis: Okay.
So, as a child, I think- If the
story serves me right, I was probably
on a horse at about 18 months old.
And from, and it was an
an obsession apparently.
I could not stay away from horses.
I'm the only one in my family that
rides, so it was something prehistoric.
I don't know.
Anyway, so yeah, I probably started
riding independently when I was about
three on little Shetland ponies.
Everyone got taught to ride on
those ponies, and if you didn't
kind of step up, you didn't go up.
We weren't allowed to use saddles as kids.
We got taught to ride bareback.
We got the life of, you know, hard knocks.
If you don't cry, don't fall
off your horse and cry, 'cause
this is what you wanna do.
Get back up, get back
on your horse, carry on.
Kick on, carry on.
So, yeah.
And, and then as I probably went
through my younger childhood, I
did lots of riding everywhere.
We didn't have a horse float.
We were pretty poor.
Horse float meaning like
Rupert Isaacson: a trailer, yeah.
Nik Lewis: A trailer, yeah.
We call them horse floats here.
So we rode everywhere.
I would ride 60Ks into
town to compete at a show.
We would ride to the beach for the day,
which was 25Ks down the road, blast our
horses up and down the beach, come home.
You know, I think we grew up
with horses in that time and
probably the best times really.
The traffic wasn't heavy.
The traffic expected you,
expected stock on the road.
Farmers didn't care if you
rode across their farms and cut
across or anything like that.
There was not the high level of
stress, I suppose, that there is now.
Yeah, so I competed my firstâ¦
I suppose I started off as a
show jumper as a kid, teenager.
Show jumper.
Did pony club.
We did pony club once a month
and everyone rode to pony club.
It was, it was more of a, mm, it was
more of a gathering for the neighbors.
It was a social thing, and
we we were there all day, and
everyone rode their horses.
D- Rode to the local horse sports.
We rode everywhere.
Our horses must have been so
fit if I think about it now.
We- there was lots of antics that we
will take to our graves on horseback.
If I saw my kids doing what we did on
our horses, I'd probably lose my nanas.
But, you know, our horses were tough.
They were rode tough.
They were held tough.
They were tough.
We do-- You got one horse.
Your horse had to learn to do everything
you wanted it to do, and guess what?
You were doing it.
Yeah.
You weren't going to instructors.
You weren't going here,
there, or anywhere.
We just, we didn't have the money, nor
did we have the means to get anywhere.
So that's kind of how I
grew up, show jumping.
And then I kind of hit late teens and
decided that life was so much more
fun than being tied down to horses.
So I had a break for
about, mm, 15, 20 years.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Nik Lewis: And then I, yeah, I
got back into- What'd you do?
I got married, divorced, had a child
that kind of stuff.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Did you l- well, th-
th- there's a question actually there
and a question from your earlier life.
Sure.
Were you an urban kid or a country kid?
And when you- Country kid.
You were a country kid.
Just your parents were not horsey,
but there were horses around.
Yeah.
And then when you left and decided
to do something else, but left
horses, did you go to the city
or did you stay in the country?
And what did you do for a living?
Nik Lewis: So I ended up, 'cause we kinda
had a rule in our house if you wanted
to leave the house you had to makeâ¦
If you wanted to leave home or
leave school, you had to have a job.
You had to what?
So I started off, have,
you had to have a job.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Nik Lewis: Yeah.
That was our family rule.
It's like, Mum and Dad's rule was that
you had to be able to support yourself.
You're not living off the
government, you're not living off us.
So we went and so I got a job in
a factory, moved to the closest
town, caused a bit of mayhem as you
do, in your late teens, early 20s.
I want to know a thing about that.
Got married.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, no.
Nik Lewis: No, I did not.
No, I, nothing.
Yeah.
No.
Yeah, so I got married, had
a child and divorced by 23.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Busy.
Nik Lewis: Yeah.
Ticked all the boxes.
And then, yeah, I, I, 'cause I
had a young child, so, and was a
single mum, so I did a lot of just
kind of, not, not just anything.
I, I worked to support me and my
son at whatever was available.
Oh, me and a friend were the first
women to work in a wood processing mill.
Yeah, so did some cool stuff.
Then at 20-something we moved, my partner
at the time and I moved out to a coast
village, and I started as a teacher aide.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
' Nik Lewis: Cause what I found, Ru,
was I would do jobs and as soon as I
mastered them I'd get really bored.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Nik Lewis: And I'd just, it was not fun
anymore, and then I'd want something else.
So I started teacher aiding for a young
girl who was a trisome 13 girl, and she
had an extra chromosome, so she couldn't
walk, talk, feed herself or anything.
And so I started working with
her, and I found my thing.
Interesting.
I found something that I loved
and entertained my brain,
'cause every day was different.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Nik Lewis: And it was
just not the same same.
So I worked as her teacher aide
for a long time, and then I decided
I wanted to be a schoolteacher.
So probably hit 30, decided
I should really grow up.
So I put, went in to be a school teacher.
There's a whole lot of stuff 'cause I have
learning difficulties and are dyslexic, so
there's a whole lot of stuff around that.
So I got accepted into teacher's college,
had to do a bit of extra study and stuff.
Went off, got my degree in education,
and then about, and then I started
teaching, and then I got back into
horses when I was probably 32, 33.
Got back into horses and and was
teaching in a small rural town that
was kind of very rough lots of gang
activity, lots of drugs, lots of alcohol.
So I worked with lots of
interesting people, interesting
kids, cool kids, really cool kids.
So I worked with those kids, and I
got back into horses, got back into
the local pony club, became the
commissioner for the local pony clubs.
Did that for a year, and I don't think so.
It's not my cup of tea.
Yeah, and then, so then I got into
eventing, and got back into hunting,
'cause I hunted as a, as a youngin.
And got back into hunting, got
back in- and started eventing,
and that was, that was different.
Cool, but very different.
Got into eventing.
My, my boy and I, he's now 29, him
and I got to two-star eventing.
That wasâ¦
And so at about 16, 17, I
retired him from eventing.
Just little niggles were
starting to happen, and I'm like-
Rupert Isaacson: Oh, your boy meaning
your horse, not your, not your child.
My horse.
I was thinking, oh- It's not
my child ⦠it's wonderful.
She's doing this with her son.
Nik Lewis: Oneâ¦
He, he will go, "Yeah, that's right.
You'll call him your boy."
Yeah, so my horse, yeah.
So he was just getting a few
little niggles, and I'm like,
"No," 'cause he'll break himself-
Rupert Isaacson: Mm
⦠Nik Lewis: to try hard for me.
So I'm like, "No," pulled
him out of eventing.
My son rode.
He rode up until he was about 16.
Yep.
Okay.
He had a crazy Standardbred, but
they had the best relationship ever.
They were just crazy together.
Anyhow, so yeah, once he stopped
eventing, it was like, "Well,
what am I gonna do now with him?"
And so I kinda leased him to a
friend, and she rang me about a
month later and said, "You need
to come and get him 'cause he'sâ¦
He doesn't wanna just sit around in
the paddock and go for the odd plod.
He's got quite a high
opinion about the world."
So, and I know he loves to
jump, so it was just like, "Mm."
So we got into show hunter, him and
I, and we qualified for Horse of the
Year a few times, couple of times,
and that was kinda like, "Yep, cool.
Hit that benchmark."
So I slowed him down, right
down, and he just cruises.
I've got two hunters on
the go at the moment.
I, my mare, I had a beautiful hunting
mare that we unfortunately lost- and
but before we lost her, I bred from her.
So I, that's my big brown and white.
It's her mum, his mum.
So and it's like, "Oh, okay, so
I've done this, I've done that."
And amongst there was
kind of mounted games.
Went to Horse of the Year a
few times playing mounted games
as veteran league obviously.
So we tried a dab hand of
everything, and now we're in
working equitation, me and Nigel.
Love working equ.
I wanted something that him and I could
build on our relationship that could
go at our pace, not the world's pace.
He's a, he's a thinker, that horse.
You teach him something, and you
need to give him a few days to
think about it, and then you'll come
back and he'll go, "I've got it."
I go, "Okay, let's go onto the next one."
And I always, when I bred him,
'cause his stand's about 17.1
hands, so when I bred him and
saw how big he was, I was like,
"I'm in no hurry for you, boy."
So we didn't back him till
he was five and a half, six.
Hisâ¦
And being a warm blood Clyde
bush pony kind of cross, he's
g- he's taken, what is he?
Coming up nine.
He's taken this long to mature in his
brain- Mm ⦠'cause he was very skittery.
Like he'd look at something and
shy like you wouldn't believe.
So we're here.
And so that's kind of like
my horse journey, I suppose.
And in the last Hmm, five years.
I've kind ofâ¦
My curiosity with training and doing,
I suppose, with Nigel, 'cause he was a
slow processor and I wanted to do things
right with him, not kind of rough and
ready, which is what we kinda got taught.
I wanted to do-- I started digging into
stuff, and it's probably when I kinda
came across you and the horse boy, and the
movement stuff, and the talking, training,
and all that stuff, and it's just likeâ¦
And doing the unhand stuff.
All that stuff is like,
just blows my mind.
It's just amazing.
And I'm loving the results I'm
getting from my boy, from Nigel.
I'm loving the results I'm seeing
from the horses in the program just
in their movement and releasing and
letting go of stuff and that stuff.
So that's kind of the horse
training line, I suppose.
And then why did I get
into what I'm doing?
Because four walls didn't work
I was, if I look at photos of me
as a young child, I would seriously
put myself on the spectrum.
I was quite feral looking.
And I loved being outside, and my
mother must have known something,
'cause she'd just like look at me
and go, "Go and get on your horse.
Get.
Go.
Go.
Go away.
Go and take your dog.
Go."
And that was my happy place.
Being on my horse, meandering around
the paddocks, farms, getting myself
stuck and having to work out how I
was gonna get out of this paddock,
'cause there was no way out.
That, that was my happy place.
So going to school, I'd ride my
horse to school, so you know,
that's a long time ago when people
could ride their horses to school.
Rupert Isaacson: Where did you keep
your horse during the school day?
Nik Lewis: We had a horse paddock.
Rupert Isaacson: Did you?
In your school?
So cool.
Nik Lewis: I know, right?
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Nik Lewis: I know.
That's what I mean.
I think we grew up in the best of times.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
Nik Lewis: No one was land locked.
Yeah, yeah.
No one was what?
Land locked.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Nik Lewis: Yeah.
So, school didn't work for me.
It did not work for me at all.
And-
Rupert Isaacson: Mm
⦠Nik Lewis: so I trained to be
a schoolteacher thinking that
I could change the system.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
Nik Lewis: Can't change the system.
So back in 2015, I started,
started having major burnout
really in, in the education system.
And I'm like, I wanna
do something different.
I want to do something.
I want to bring my passion of
education and learning to do
stuff and, and that kind of stuff
with the passion with my horses.
So I started digging around the
internet, and the only thing that I
could find back in 2015 was Egala.
So I went and trained in Egala.
I liked the training, I liked the
philosophy, I like the triangle model,
but it didn't hit the mark for me.
I'm not a mental health worker.
I don't wanna train to be a mental
health worker, and finding someone to
work in that triangle, and you couldn't
guarantee them five days work orâ¦
So that became probab- you know, quite-
Rupert Isaacson: Just quickly for the
listeners who don't know that triangle
Egala model, can you just explain
how that works, 'cause I think that'd
be quite interesting for people.
Nik Lewis: Oh, okay.
So the Egala model works in a triangle
where you have a equine specialist,
so that's someone that looks after
the horses, sets up the activities
with very much a horse focus.
You have a mental health
Rupert Isaacson: work-
Yeah, one professional in,
in the team sort of thing.
Nik Lewis: Equine professional, yep.
You have a mental health worker
who looks after the human and pulls
whatever they need to out of the human.
And the third person in the team, or
third being in the team, is the horse.
So the- Oh, I see.
Okay ⦠the three, whether it be one
horse, two horses, a herd of horses.
It'sâ¦
Yeah, it'sâ¦
Yeah, so I need less-
Rupert Isaacson: What did, what did
you find was limiting about that
because that is quite a good model.
Nik Lewis: It is.
Yeah, it is a good model.
What I found limiting was probably-
Back then it was quite prescribed.
Rupert Isaacson: Meaning?
Nik Lewis: Meaning that if you
were working with working with
a person that was dealing with
whatever, you kinda went down this
avenue and stayed in this avenue.
Rupert Isaacson: You
stayed in the what, sorry?
Yeah.
Nik Lewis: You stayed in your lane.
So if you're working- Okay ⦠with
dysregulation, you did all
the activities and stuff.
Now, in saying that, that was back then.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Nik Lewis: Now the
Eagan model has changed.
There's a lot more flexibilities.
There's not so many, "I will do
this activity, do that activity."
It's like there's a lot
more flexibility in it-
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah
⦠Nik Lewis: from what.
It's evolved.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Nik Lewis: Yeah, it has
evolved, which is real cool.
But again, for us working with
not being able to guarantee
someone a set income- Yeah
that was probably our biggest barrier.
Rupert Isaacson: Oh, because you said
that you have to, you have to guarantee
the, the s- the psych professional-
Nik Lewis: Yeah
⦠Rupert Isaacson: a certain income.
I see.
I see.
Yeah.
Nik Lewis: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: That's, that's-
Nik Lewis: And we couldn't do that.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Nik Lewis: So that was
probably our biggest barrier.
So then I did for 18 months work with an
awesome social worker on New Plymouth.
So every weekend for 18 months we worked
with clients over in New Plymouth.
So I would travel four hours to the other
side of the island, and that was amazing.
It was great for my professional
development and what I do now.
It was great to get myself being
confident in, in a village and
working with lots of different
And having her as kind
of a mentor as well.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Nik Lewis: Like, she was
like, "You can do this.
You can do this."
Mm.
You know?
So there's, having her
support was amazing.
Yeah, so-
Back, it was 2018, I hadâ¦
The universe gave me a
humongous kick up the butt.
Humongous.
And it was an opening for me to
leave the security of six figures
and go and do what we're doing.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Nik Lewis: It was hard.
That was a hard decision.
That was hard, that was scary,
that was terrifying to leave a
secured income for a possibility.
So we did it.
We moved towns, we leased a property.
I went relief school teaching
and just kinda put it out there.
Started with lots of pro bonos, and then
it just slowly built from this, thisâ¦
And being a reliever, I couldâ¦
It gave me flexibility in when
I could work and when I couldn't
work, rather than being locked in.
So- Yeah ⦠and from then we've
grown and grown, and we've changed and
evolved, and still learning every day.
Every day we learn.
We learn from our clients, we
learn from our mentors out there
in the universe, our horses.
We learn every day.
And I think, I think that's
probably one of our strengths-
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah
⦠Nik Lewis: is that we're not
closed to anything I think we'll,
we'll go, "That looks kinda cool.
Shall we try it?"
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, I mean- And I think-
I- it's interesting.
You must be drawing from
so many influences by now.
You know, obviously you and I
work together, so there's- Mm
Horseback Jacking in
there, a movement method.
But you're also do, you know,
you've got your Egala background.
You've got your teaching background.
You've got the social work background.
You've got RDA background.
Do you find that in any given
session you're just pulling
from all of those always?
Nik Lewis: All the time.
Yeah.
All the time.
And because we- we've got, you know, the
philosophy of follow the child, follow the
horse, whatever rocks in the day, you've
got, we've got this uniqueness, I suppose,
that we can just flip anything on a dime.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Nik Lewis: You see something and
we'll go, "Oh, let's do this."
And we're off and we're going
to do something else 'cause
something has happened.
And it's like, actually,
we need to go this way.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Yeah.
Do you have a- And- Who's
the team that you work with?
Is it
⦠Nik Lewis: The team is pretty much me.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Nik Lewis: I have a lady th- that
comes in on a Monday and volunteers.
She's from the Netherlands.
She's amazing.
So she's just learning
the way that we roll.
At the moment I have a young worker.
I say young.
She's in her 30s, so to me that's
young when I'm nearly knocking on 60.
But sh- she's just learning as well.
I have another young, this one is young.
She's an 18-year-old
volunteer that comes in.
So she's just learning.
She does a lot of sidewalking for
me, and just eyes on the ground.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
You ⦠Are you, you have a partner.
Does your partner also get
involved in this or i- is her life
completely separate professionally?
Nik Lewis: She's still teaching full time.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Nik Lewis: Yeah.
So, so here, she, her role as, so 18
months ago, 18 months ago, something
like that, we got, we finally got
charity status, so she kind of
drives the charity side of things.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Nik Lewis: Yeah, I drive the other side.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: So it is like a-
It is- ⦠partnering partnership.
It's not like you two have these
two completely separate lives.
And I guess she's- No ⦠to
some degree your lifeline to
the school system too, still.
Nik Lewis: Absolutely.
And, you know, she's als- she's my rock.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Nik Lewis: She's absolutely my rock.
She's the person I can go to at the
end of the day and go, "That was hard.
It was a hard day."
Or I can go, "Oh my
God, we did this today."
Yeah.
And she gets that.
You know?
So she's seen the growth, she's seen the
growth in me while we've been doing this.
She's seen the growth in the horses.
She's seen the growth
in everything, you know?
So that's, that's cool.
And sometimes we'll sit, like,
as you know, we were just in
Rarotonga for a couple of weeks.
First time her and I have
had a holiday together
in I don't know how many years.
And it's, and so that gave
us the head space to sit and
unpack and remember how far.
And I ended up, I'm not far from
coming to see you for 10 days.
But you know, those, you
have to create those spaces.
Rupert Isaacson: Yes.
Yes, you do.
It, you know, it sounds like as you put
the story of your evolution together
just a couple things jump out at me.
One is that
it's a very good idea to
learn a bunch of systems.
Don't just learn a system and stick
with that for your entire professional
life, because it won't be enough.
There are too manyâ¦
People use the word diversity now as a
catchphrase, but what it actually means
is that there's an infinite number of
humans out there, and no one- Yeah ⦠no
one thing, not my method, not anyone
else's method is going to hit everything.
So you've got to learn, and then
hopefully every method is also drawing
from wealths of other experience.
But I think that the story that you
just related there really brings home
that you need to kind of evolve a
practice that is multidisciplinary.
So go learn everybody's stuff.
And don't listen to the politics
where people say, "Well, that one's
crap," or, "Don't do that one," orâ¦
Just, "No, no, go learn them all.
Go learn them all because
there'll be something in there,
in each one that is good."
And-
You know, I think as you were saying,
your, your Kiwi upbringing and
attitude perhaps makes you more open
to that because it's just practical,
than somebody who might have drunk
the Kool-Aid of factionalism.
Mm-hmm.
But then also your own story,
you know, saying, okay, well, you
yourself was to some degree pretty
neurodiverse growing up, and you
certainly had learning difficulties,
found your way through the horse in a
time when the countryside was freer.
And but then still had to face
those difficulties at school.
I think a lot of people back then who
were dyslexic were called stupid and had
their self-esteem undermined in a big way.
Yeah ⦠you know, and of course
now we know that usually people
that are dyslexic, it's usually
a sign of great intelligence,
and it's the absolute opposite.
But when you're up against a rigid
school teacher with a ruler in their
hand aged eight as you were and I was,
Nik Lewis: Mm
Rupert Isaacson: yeah, it, it
their, their, their job seems to
be to make you feel y- crap about
yourself, and then you have to go
off and be dysfunctional in order to
kind of deal with that pain a bit.
And then you do all the things, like I
said, I think it's interesting how many of
the people I interview were single moms.
And, you know, y- you've probably run
across in Horse Boy world, Jo-Elle
Dunlap, who runs- Uh-huh ⦠Square
Peg Foundation in California, massively
successful organization, and she was
a mom at 16, and then ended up with a
neurodiverse kid, and of course dealt with
all of the prejudice that came with that
rather than people rushing to help her.
Which gives- Someone great compassion
for other people and, and, you know, and
then moving on and becoming an educator,
but going back to your time where you ha-
were working with this chromosome-affected
individual who intrigued you.
And now to where you are now, where
you've taken the plunge of replacing
s- financial security within the
education system with what you do
now and are making it really work.
It comes across very much as a kind
of equine-assisted social work almost,
with a neurocognitive neurocognitive
sort of overlay where somebody could
come to you who was, say, non-verbal
and get really good cognitive work.
But at the same time also, what seems
to really come out of your story
is, is, is story, is empowerment.
People coming from disempowerment
to empowerment, including yourself.
And as you know, within, within Horse
Boy, our goal is always self-advocacy.
You know, that if you have somebody
who, say, can't talk it's gonna be
difficult for them to navigate the world
and advocate for their own needs, and
to some degree they're gonna have to.
You know, otherwise
you just don't survive.
There is ⦠You know, that's the
South African in me, is the, is the,
the, that practical thing saying,
"Look, I will adapt everything to
your world and to your needs, but
the rest of the world probably won't.
So how do I prepare you?
How do I equip you to go out there with
a set of special forces skills that
you're gonna need to not die, you know?
Let alone thrive."
Mm.
Hopefully thrive, but certainly
we need you to survive.
So, and I think those of us that
come out of that sort of slightly
pioneering background, we, we sort
of know that the survival thing
actually really is important.
It's not something you can
actually take for granted at all.
So let's go back to
the, to the riding side.
I said in the beginning of this
that, you know, the, the crazy
side of the Kiwi riding, which,
you know, makes them all so good.
You have a hunting background, I have a
hunting background, and we all know that
when, when you hunt, fox hunting, and
by the way, for the listeners that hate
fox hunting, I don't live hunt anymore.
We do the artificial
version, so don't worry.
You know, no, no animals are
harmed in the course of Rupert's
obsession of riding to hounds at all.
I gave up live hunting because a
Navajo medicine man told me to,
and I haven't hassled a fox since.
That was a long time ago.
But we go out with the bloodhounds
where we hunt each other.
It's quite fun.
And go over the big hedges.
But as you know, in, in the UK and
other places like that we jump big
stuff where we can't see what's on the
other side of the fence, and it feeds
a kind of need in us for that thing.
But at the same time, if you
don't wanna jump at all, there's
kind of always a way around.
So it- it's inclusive.
Right Everyone can go and
no- there's no hierarchy.
Like, oh, the, the real cool people
are the ones who jump, and the sort
of shit people are the ones thatâ¦
It's not like that.
The hunting world is not like that at all.
Everyone's in it together for the crack.
But the kind of fences that I grew
up going over, which are those giant
hedges and big timber and that sort
of thing, scare the poops out of
you, and occasionally you wreck.
You guys down in Kiwi land
take it to a whole other level.
You jump wire.
Now, when I was a boy, actually still
a bit later, I have jumped wire, but
we would alwa- we would only do it
as an absolute last resort, and you
couldn't guarantee that your horse would
necessarily know that that was there.
So you mightâ¦
Some of us did actually train our
horses a bit to jump wire in an
emergency, but a lot of people, you
might like take off your coat and hang
your coat over it or s- something that
would make it obvious to the horse
that there was something to jump.
You guys don't do that.
You just go for it.
I'm always been intrigued about that and
the special kind of character it gives
to the Kiwi rider and the Kiwi horse.
Talk us through how you
train a horse to jump wire.
Why would you do that?
Because in the USA, for example,
it's mostly wire fences.
They almost always build hunt jumps.
They almost always put a,
you know, wooden panel over.
Don't jump the wire.
No one would ensure you to jump the wire.
What, what, w- why did it evolve like
that in Kiwi land, and, and how do you
do it, and what do you think it, itâ¦
what's the qualities of sort
of a, that it gives toâ¦
Anyway, talk us through it
Nik Lewis: I don't know the history ofâ¦
I've only ever known until kind
of the internet came around
that hunting, you jump fences.
Rupert Isaacson: That hunting what?
Nik Lewis: That was
hunting, you jump fences.
We, I didn't know about, until the
internet kind of hit, whenever that hit
I didn't know how other countries hunted.
I didn't know about jumping stone walls
or big hedges or massive ditches that you
can drown in and, and that kind of stuff.
We only ever jumped wire.
And as a kid, we only ever jumped
fences, and as a kid, 99% of them
were full wire, like eight wires.
Like your old, I don't know what
we call our dry stock fences,
so it's kinda like posts, four
battens, eight wires, another post.
So that's what we, that's what we learnt.
I don't remember much.
In my teenage years, I don't
even know if we trained.
We just went out and jumped them
Well, there's
Rupert Isaacson: always
Nik Lewis: a
Rupert Isaacson: training process.
There's always like start
with a small thing, build up
Nik Lewis: to- Yeah, your
horse has just jumped.
You know, like my mare that I
hunted on, she was a massive jumper.
She would just fly.
So you just pointed her at the fence
and you went, "Let's go," and we went.
But I don't remember training
her at home jumping fences.
I don't remember making a pretend fence.
You start
Rupert Isaacson: with poles on the
ground and cavalettis and cross
poles and then build it up gradually?
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Takine equine integration aimed
at a more adult client base
absolutely gives you this.
Nik Lewis: Are you talking
about jumping or hunting?
Rupert Isaacson: Well, for example,
when I was a kid, Even though we were
quite rough and ready there wasn't
the, you know, w- you just would always
start rationally, start small, go big.
Nik Lewis: Mm.
Rupert Isaacson: And because the, the
fences are made out of plant fiber
or stone, you know- Uh-huh ⦠you're
starting with small plant fiber
things, poles, crossrails, and then
building up to big timber or hedges.
And, you know, if it was stone walls you
could put barrels on the ground, you know,
make small ones and then turn them up and
then they kind of look a bit like a wall.
And then, you know, but you wouldn't goâ¦
And then you'd go out and you'd jump.
You'd find small things to jump.
You'd jump out hunting, you might
jump like a gap in the, the hedge
or a gap in the wall or where, a bit
where the wall had fallen a bit until
the horse gained the confidence, and
then you could go for the big things.
That's just sort of rational.
But you're talking about a
process, Yeah ⦠that's different.
Like, yeah.
However, you must have
taught the horse to jump-
Nik Lewis: Yeah
⦠Rupert Isaacson: before you went out
Nik Lewis: hunting.
Then I taughtâ¦
Yeah.
So if we were hunting, hunting
and jumping, it was pretty much
a given that our horse could
jump anything we faced at it.
Yeah.
So, you know, like I said, we would go
out riding all day, the group of kids,
and, and, you know, the 50K radius, and
we'd be, we'd jump over logs, we'd jump
over gates, we'd jump over whatever.
You know, river- rivers, go
swimming down the ocean, go swimming
down the rivers, over rocks.
So probably our hacking or getting out
of our mothers' hair was our training.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Nik Lewis: And
Rupert Isaacson: most of our horse- So
you were finding small things to jump.
You, you were not- Mm ⦠and
then you were building up.
But nonetheless, a wire fence
looks very different to a log,
you know, in a horse's mind.
You know, one thing is a sort of clear
barrier that is solid and therefore,
and, and so it's not something a horse
might encounter in nature, right?
Wire is not and it's not always visible.
That's what's always intrigued me.
But m- is, is the, is the secret
in what you talked about the
batons, that in between the
posts there were upright smaller-
Nik Lewis: Batons
⦠Rupert Isaacson: wooden upright
things that the horse could see?
Is that the difference?
Nik Lewis: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Nik Lewis: That, thatâ¦
Yeah.
It's not like dairy fencing where it's
like each post is like three meters
apart and there's just two wires.
Like hunting in New
Zealand has changed a lot.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Nik Lewis: Yeah.
So because a lot of the farms now are
dairy industry, where, so there is a
lot of dairy farms we hunt, so therefore
a lot of the fences are now sparred.
Rupert Isaacson: So they would
put a wooden thing across
Nik Lewis: the top.
They put a big log- Right ⦠or
a post or Arkadine pipe.
Sometimes the road markings, you know-
Mm ⦠the white reflectors go in there.
There's probably in our hunt club- There
might be three dry stock farms we hunt.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Nik Lewis: So that's where you seeâ¦
Yeah, that's where you
get the- Why do they call
Rupert Isaacson: it dry stock?
'Cause they're not milking them
Nik Lewis: Yeah, so that's the
beef and, and the sheep, yeah
Rupert Isaacson: Okay
Nik Lewis: Dry stock.
Mm.
Rupert Isaacson: And why would they have
a different type of fence to a dairy farm?
Nik Lewis: Because sheep
and cows are escape artists.
Rupert Isaacson: But dairy cows-
The sheep will go under ⦠are
escape artists too, no?
Nik Lewis: Yeah, but that's electric.
Sheep are the worst thing ever.
You need the battens to keep
the sheep in the paddock.
Rupert Isaacson: Got it.
Nik Lewis: Sheep are terrible
Rupert Isaacson: Right, that would
Nik Lewis: be the equivalent-
They are terrible.
They would just run through.
Because your wall insulates, they just
run through, so they need the batten.
Rupert Isaacson: Oh, they, they
would run through the, they
would run through the electric
Nik Lewis: like- Through the wires.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, yeah.
Now it's interesting, there's
an equivalent in the UK.
So in the hedges that you see are
maintained, and the way they maintain
them over hundreds of years is about once
every 7 to 12 years they go through a
process that's called cutting and laying
or sometimes they call it a stake and
bind, where, so if you just always trim
the top of the fence, and in the old
days there were no machines, but now that
people do have machines, if you just trim
the top of a hedge, what happens is the
bottom of it grows out and it grows into
lots and lots of individual trees again.
Just so, so small stock, like sheep,
would just go through those gaps.
If you want- Mm ⦠a hedge to keep
sheep in what you have to do is
this stake and bound thing where
you make it too thick for them.
So every seven years a guy by hand,
it's a rural craft, like dry stone
walling goes with a billhook and
you chop each individual hawthorn
or blackthorn, they're usually made
of thorn, the hedges, are a tree.
You chop it almost all the way through
on an angle and then you pull it across,
and so it's only got a thin connectivity
left and it can totally survive that
way, and you bind it to a stake.
A ha- usually a hazel rod
that you stick in the ground.
Mm.
Wow.
And then you do that every three
feet t- t- t- t- all the way along.
And what that means is that
the hedge grows so thick at the
bottom, no matter how big it gets,
livestock cannot push through it.
And then people who are familiar
with show jumping know that, you
know, you might jump an oxer.
Oxer comes from the word oxen
because those were hedges
that if you had- Oh, right
if you had b- particularly bulls that
might try to- Mm ⦠push through to get
to cows, you then build a wooden fence
on each side of it, and that's the oxer.
That's the thing to keep the oxen
in, which makes it- Right ⦠even,
you know, scarier to jump.
And usually those would be set
quite low, not set quite high.
So it would resemble what
we s- today see as an oxer.
Big bit in the middle, two bits
on either side that are set a
bit lower, but a very wide jump.
And so now I, I understand a bit more.
So you're saying that those battens
set into the wire vertically between-
Yeah ⦠the posts would take the
place of a cut and laid fence.
They would- Mm.
Or a cut and laid hedge,
Nik Lewis: Yeah
⦠Rupert Isaacson: w- with the
same idea to make it too dense
for the sheep to get through.
I grew up in a sheep farming area as well.
Nik Lewis: Mm.
Rupert Isaacson: And then I could
see how the horse could see- That
there was in fact a vertical line of
things close enough together to jump.
But nonetheless, you know, w- we
oft- those of us who grow up, in
my world of jumping, we always
think in terms of at least one
horizontal clear line along the top.
I'm rather intrigued, and it shows
that horses are just so much more
adaptable than we think they are.
Yeah.
Nik Lewis: That,
Rupert Isaacson: that they could see
just those four things upright, but not
necessarily discern the wire up top,
but jump the height of those things.
It must have gone wrong sometimes, eh?
Nik Lewis: Goes wrong frequently
Rupert Isaacson: Okay
Nik Lewis: Goes wrong frequently.
And, and I suppose it's the n- you
know, you get your rotationals.
You get horses that kind of are a
little bit hesitant, or their riders
are a little bit hesitant, and so they
kind of slide in and hook a shoe on.
That can happen.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah
Nik Lewis: Don't ride their line
straight, so then they get the, like,
the wires that come out the side,
and you can have a little bit of
interesting conversations through that.
Yeah.
The, but itâ¦
You know, I got taught that
wire was safer than solids.
Rupert Isaacson: Really?
So interesting.
Yeah.
Nik Lewis: Because if you
hit a wire, it's gonna move.
That was- Oh ⦠this was our theory.
Because there's give If you
hit a wire, it's gonna move.
If you hit a solid, that
is not going anywhere.
Rupert Isaacson: But if you hit
the wire and it moves, does it
not hook you and pull you down?
Nik Lewis: Not always.
It'll just go whip and ping back.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Okay, okay.
Nik Lewis: Mm.
Rupert Isaacson: And is the
t- was it always barbed wire?
Would the horse not get
cut if you did that?
Or was it usually straight?
Was
Nik Lewis: it- There's not very, there's
not very many barbed wire at the top.
Okay you m- you might have got
maybe one a season where you
go, "Oh, shit, that's barbed."
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah
Nik Lewis: And so you just kick a
little bit higher, harder, so your
horse lifts a little bit higher.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
Nik Lewis: Yeah.
Don't tend to take unnecessary risks
at site fences with outriggers on them.
Do you know what outriggers are?
Rupert Isaacson: No.
Nik Lewis: Okay, so you have your fence
sign, and then off the side they have
this gadget, and they run an electric
fence about that far off the, off the
fence to keep stock off the fence.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Nik Lewis: Yeah.
See, I won't d- I won't jump.
You know, and it's what
you're happy to jump.
I won't jump outriggers.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Nik Lewis: I, but do- They
freak me out too much.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Wow.
What's the horse injury rate?
People will have to ask this question.
Nik Lewis: Low.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Why do you think- Oh, and I made
Nik Lewis: you a-
Rupert Isaacson: Why do you think that?
I mean, well, you're
hunting every season there,
Nik Lewis: Mm
Rupert Isaacson: which hats off.
And spoiler alert when when Nick was
doing her horse boy level- Four, I think.
You, you, we, we have-
Nik Lewis: You threw me a
challenge and I accepted
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
You, you have to trail ride with a
Freddy, with a great big teddy bear
in front of you, pretty actively.
Walk, trot, canter, you know,
all of that stuff as if you
had a child in front of you.
Well, Nick took the took the challenge
a little bit further and went out
hunting with a great big teddy bear
in front of him, and went jumping
over all those fences with a great
big teddy bear in front of him.
Which I say upped the ante for everybody.
What do you, what do you attribute the
low injury rate, the low hitting of the
fence rate of the horses in that ni-
Is it, and, and the sort of competence
of the Kiwi horses to, to do that?
Because it, it's hard to imagine
just pulling any horse out of its
life and training it for that job.
Is there a certain amount
of selective breeding?
Like are there horses that clearly
just like can never see the, the
wire and then you're like, "Oh,
my God, it's just not, you know,
not gonna breed from that horse."
Or do you think pretty much any
horse can be trained how to do that?
And people might think we're diverging
here from the equine-assisted, but I'm
gonna bring this back because I'm gonna
bring this back to cognition in horses
and how that affects cognition in humans.
So just bear with us for a while as
we go down this nerdy rabbit hole.
Yeah.
What-
Nik Lewis: I, I look at, I look at
our hunt field and there is a couple
of other hunt clubs I'll go and
hunt with, and there is a variety.
There's not one said horse.
There's not one breed
that outweighs the other.
A lot of people ride
thoroughbreds in the hunt field.
Oh, well,
Rupert Isaacson: you have to because
you've got such steep hills, right?
So you need horses that
can have that stamina.
Nik Lewis: Yeah.
So there's a lot of
thoroughbreds out there.
A lot of crossbreds, I think.
A lot of warmbloods
Yeah.
Yeah There's all sorts.
Rupert Isaacson: But in, in
Nik Lewis: terms of- And sometimes it's
for- Yeah ⦠it's for the, you know,
you want this type of horse 'cause
you wanna hunt in this particular
part of the field, or I just wannaâ¦
You know, I've got mums that just want
a horse that's just gonna stay level
so they're out there with their kids,
and they can go through the gates and
pop over a little spot if they have to.
Right.
But it's more, we, I, personally,
it's for me, it's the brain.
It's not the breed, it's the brain.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Nik Lewis: It's whether a brain can
handle the atmosphere because you can't
train for that atmosphere at home.
Rupert Isaacson: I know
Nik Lewis: what
Rupert Isaacson: you mean- And
it's- ⦠by the atmosphere.
It,
Nik Lewis: it- It's a
whole new realm for horses.
It is.
They're out.
Horses are going, you know,
galloping along, some, so you
want some walking, some galloping.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Nik Lewis: You know, we've got
seven-year-olds on our hunt field.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, kids.
Nik Lewis: Mm.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
No, it's, it's very difficult, people
who've never hunted to, you talk
about that atmosphere, 'cause the
horses are going in a big group.
They're galloping up and downhill.
It's not under some sort
of competition control.
It's just what it is, and the horses
egg each other on, and they do wanna
race each other, and, and, and.
And horses that do really well in the hunt
field seem to have this steady mind where
they can cope with all of that action.
But at the same time when they need the
fire to go for that really big fence or
whatever, the fire is there, and, but then
it can be brought back to thinking mode.
That's neuroplasticity.
Nik Lewis: That's their self-regulation.
They can regulate.
Do you- They w- can horses,
that, that can regulate.
Rupert Isaacson: Do you find thatâ¦
And, and we know that when you start
horses in the hunt field when they're
young, they're not regulating, you know,
and we, we bring them into regulation
over time as they get used to it.
Of course, we ride them very calmly at
first, as calmly as the hunt field allows.
And talk to me about how being hunt horses
helps your horses be therapy horses.
Nik Lewis: So at, at, our horses being
out on the hunt field, it just, for, I
can think of my little red mare who I,
that I, you saw the video with Freddy.
It gives her an out.
It's an outlet for her to-
Stretch her legs, kick up her heels, do
what she loves, and then she can settle
into her day job, if you like to say.
And then she can go and
have a party in the weekend.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
Nik Lewis: So it's just like, yep, I
can hold it together and I can do this,
but as long as I get to have a play.
I'm so- And you soon know.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Nik Lewis: You soon know if,
if she's with a few clients and
hasn't had her party weekend.
She gets quite, quite
opinionated about the world.
Rupert Isaacson: It's
in- it's so interesting.
You know, in the equine-assisted world,
it's all about safety, and it should be.
And at the same time, that can lead to
in such intense boredom for horses, and
actually frankly for humans, that horses
either shut down or start to, like, bite
the handlers and that sort of thing.
One sees this all the time.
And I've never really understood
why there isn't this variety of work
for the equine-assisted horses that
like any human, they would needâ¦
Horses are playful, h- horses
are curious, horses are athletic.
Just like us, they need
these outlets and variety.
And also, so do brains, you know.
So for example, I never when we were,
even when we were working at our height
in, in Texas when we had a lot of
clients, we would always rotate the
horses in and out of the therapy work.
And then they would always have jumping,
they would always have really active
trail riding, they would always have
dressage, they would always have tricks.
They would always have all this
diversity, but a- a lot of excitement
to balance the times when we said,
"This is not a time for excitement.
This is a time for, to be
totally regulated, to be
in service to this client."
And we found that the
horses really got that.
They would be like, "Yeah, fair enough."
And now we have this whole thing
called crazy time, you know- Mm
for the people that don't have access
to that kind of riding or maybe
don't want to do that kind of ri-
don't want to, for very good reasons,
have their butt on the horse when
going to do these exciting things.
But the horse still needs that excitement.
And so the free jumping in the arena,
that sort of thing in a group, can really
take the place of that for the horse.
But it, it's interesting to me that within
the equine-assisted world, it's often
just not regarded as an equine need,
that it's pa- not regarded as part of
the equine wellbeing to give them this
kind of a outlet for their athleticism
and their need for fun and play.
Do you think it's different
down there in, in Kiwi land?
Do you think that actually people
in the equine facilitated world
do know this and do it more?
Are you quite unique?
Are you more of an outlier,
that you give your horses these
hunting days and things like that?
Nik Lewis: I don't know
the answer to that question
Rupert Isaacson: I mean, I presume you
talk to your colleagues to some degree
even though, or are you too remote?
Nik Lewis: I, I'm an island
Rupert Isaacson: Okay
Nik Lewis: I, I don't know anyone
that doesn't, that does what I do-
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah
⦠Nik Lewis: in New Zealand.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Do
Nik Lewis: you think- So like I
know people in the Egara world,
I know people in the RDA world-
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm
⦠Nik Lewis: but not in my world.
Rupert Isaacson: But are they
hunting their horses, the Egara
people and the RDA horses?
Are they getting to go and have the
fun that your horses are having?
Nik Lewis: I know our local
RDA, some of the horses have
riders, and they compete them.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Nik Lewis: I know that in the Egara
world, I know of a couple ofâ¦
Yeah, I don't know.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
I think it's something that needs to be
looked at much more- Mm ⦠in depth.
I have seen, in the 20-odd years
that we've been doing this, a kind
of level of boredom, and sometimes
I'd say almost despair, in a lot
of horses that are in this world.
Okay, admittedly, it- people could say,
"Yeah, but it's a nice job, Rupert.
It's not very demanding."
But-
organisms are brains It is, aye They,
they, they like a challenge, they like
a demand, and what if the demand and
the challenge is a, a shit one, i.e.,
you've just got to deal with
this kind of boredom every day?
Mm.
Rather than the challenge is let's
do something really interesting
and see if we can do that.
Mm ⦠the, the, the need for
purpose and the need for growth and
the need for development I think is
as acute in mammals with four legs
as, as with mammals with two legs.
And I'm just not sure that this gets the
attention it needs, and when, when I'm
talking to you, it makes me r- realize
that perhaps we should cr- turn much more
attention to this in the equine-assisted
world because if our job is supposed to
be to give wellbeing to people through
our horses, how are we gonna do that if
the horses don't have massive wellbeing?
No.
And I know that your horses do, you know?
It's interesting, isn't it?
Nik Lewis: Yeah.
Yeah, it, it is, and, and
I think sometimes there's-
There's the opinion that, "Oh,
well, the h- it can go and be a
service horse 'cause it's broken."
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Nik Lewis: You know, and, and we, we've
got some interesting characters that
we work with their aging ailments.
'Cause I gotta remember that
when I started, my horses
now are eight years older
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Yeah, I'm dealing with
Nik Lewis: that
Rupert Isaacson: myself at the moment.
Nik Lewis: Yeah.
So, yeah.
Yeah.
It's kind of like, shit, he's 20 now,
or he's 24 now, and, oh, that little
group of Thoroughbreds are 19 now.
Rupert Isaacson: Yep.
Nik Lewis: So with that comes your own
need for, you know, changing, fitting
that, you know, that their bones
are getting older and things as gas
starting to not flow like they used to.
'Cause I know my body
doesn't work like it used to.
I am not gonna expectâ¦
But you just wiggle that in and
that's where I find the in-hand helps.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Nik Lewis: Heaps, it's
helping heaps of them.
We're dealing with little niggles of
arthritis, fallout from ex-race horses
that were probably raced as two-year-olds.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Nik Lewis: You know, and the
damage that that caused, so
we're gonna get it now at 19.
You just work your way through it.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Nik Lewis: But-
Rupert Isaacson: As you said, the
in-hand work is often the key for that.
You know, the, we, we found that
was the game changer for reverse
aging horses, for rehabbing horses.
Nik Lewis: Mm.
Rupert Isaacson: That they could really,
I suppose like yoga for people, go figure.
Nik Lewis: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: You know.
You talked about, quite a lot about
ex-race horses and Thoroughbreds and,
you know, there's another prejudice, I
think, within the equine-assisted world
that Thoroughbreds are not suitable.
And I've run i- into this a lot, but
a lot of our Horse Boy places actively
recruit off the track Thoroughbreds
and do incredible work with them.
A lot of our places in Ireland do.
Joelle Dunlap, who we talked about-
Nik Lewis: Mm
⦠Rupert Isaacson: works very closely
with the Off The Track Thoroughbred
Association and has kind of put that
prejudice, I think, put the lie to it.
But nonetheless, that prejudice is there.
What, do you think the Thoroughbred
actually has some special characteristics
in our world that are overlooked?
Nik Lewis: I think there's a lot of
prejudice around Thoroughbreds and,
and like any breed they have their
quirkies that, you know, that they're
Thoroughbreds, they have things that
have been bred into them and things
that have been bred out of them.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Nik Lewis: So their feet
are always an issue.
For us their feet is always an issue.
Their
Rupert Isaacson: feet?
Interesting
⦠Nik Lewis: feet, their hooves.
Just, they're soft, soft for Kiwis.
We don't shoe any of our horses.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
Nik Lewis: So some people might
find that a little bit interesting.
And that's not 'cause I'm crazy
and you la, la, la, and only
do barefoot and only do this.
It was more a financial decision.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Well no, if you've got the
horses- ⦠that can stand up to
the work without the shoe, great.
Just a lot of people don't.
Nik Lewis: But- Yeah ⦠yeah,
and our breeds, yeah, well for our
breeds, our Thoroughbreds, we just,
we've got them in, if they, when they
need them when they're feeling the
ground we put them in scoot boots.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
All right.
Nik Lewis: Which is just, for
us that's a cheaper alternative.
But anyhow I li- I like our breeds.
I like our three Thoroughbreds.
They're all, they're all, you know,
we've got one of them is a true
black, so that's always interesting
to talk to people about, 'cause
you don't see many true blacks.
You know, and we've got the big iron-
Rupert Isaacson: In just a Thoroughbred
mind, do you, do you, do you think
that there's some special qualities in
there that are overlooked in our world?
Nik Lewis: Their quirkiness.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Nik Lewis: Their quirkiness.
They are, they are just, they're quirky.
I don't know another word.
Rupert Isaacson: You see, I'd agree.
You know,
Nik Lewis: they've-
Rupert Isaacson: I, I, I think, I
think that they can bring a sort
of parallel quirkiness in the
equine world to the quirkinessâ¦
Look, I'm wearing my Team Quirky shirt.
Nik Lewis: Yeah
⦠Rupert Isaacson: you know, I think, I
think that often the quirkier among us
humans, which would include our clients,
but would probably also include you and I-
Nik Lewis: Mm-hmm.
Yeah
⦠Rupert Isaacson: we appreciate that-
sort of unpredictability and
brilliance, but also anxiousness
and, I mean, y- y- you could have
so many parallels there with autism.
Nik Lewis: Yeah.
You know?
Rupert Isaacson: That when the
horse reflects this itself and
then some people say, "Oh, but that
would make it unsafe to work with."
But I just haven't found that.
I've found Thoroughbreds
really do rise to the occasion.
Is there something that-
Nik Lewis: Absolutely.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Nik Lewis: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: if you're a horse
nerd, and if you're on this podcast,
I'm guessing you are, then you've
probably also always wondered a little
bit about the old master system.
of dressage training.
If you go and check out our Helios Harmony
program, we outline there step by step
exactly how to train your horse from
the ground to become the dressage horse
of your dreams in a way that absolutely
serves the physical, mental and emotional
well being of the horse and the rider.
Intrigued?
Like to know more?
Go to our website, Helios Harmony.
Check out the free introduction course.
Take it from there.
What, what do you do, do you, what do
you do with your Thoroughbreds to make
sure that they do rise to the occasion?
D- like, if, if, if you were talking,
put it this way, if you were talking to
someone who said, "Nick, I c- I'm not
gonna use Thoroughbreds 'cause they're
not safe because they're quirky."
And you say, "Well, I've
been using them for years.
Here's what I do."
Nik Lewis: Hmm.
I suppose we let them be horses.
Rupert Isaacson: Go on.
What does that mean as
Nik Lewis: a general kind of thing?
So we let them be horses.
They live in a herd.
They live outside 24/7.
They have access, we've got a,
we run two herds of big horses.
So we run a herd of
four and a herd of six.
So in the herd of four we've got our
three Thoroughbreds and a Gisborne bred.
And so they have half of the
farm to cruise around on.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
Nik Lewis: And then in the
summertime we put track systems up,
so then they've got autumn grass.
On the other side of the farm
is the six, which is a mix of
old, young, girls, and boys.
And they, they have hills to run over.
We let them be horses.
And, and saying that, that
Rupert Isaacson: comes- You're talking
about a lot of free movement over-
Nik Lewis: Yeah
⦠Rupert Isaacson: varied terrain,
and you're talking about long-term
stable herd structures, right?
Nik Lewis: Mm.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Nik Lewis: Yeah, so they've
each got their, their village.
They've, they've all got their village.
We've got one out of the village at the
moment, only 'cause- That's those ⦠she
thinks her and Nigel should make babies.
So that's just, you know.
But you deal with those herd dynamics.
And- Yeah ⦠they're gonna
slip over, and they're gonna
pull a muscle, but that's like
That's life
Rupert Isaacson: Well, it's also quality
Nik Lewis: of life You're gonna fall over.
Rupert Isaacson: Exactly.
Mm.
Like, if I pull a muscle 'cause
I'm going on a lovely hike, well,
I still went on a lovely hike.
It was still better than sitting
in the armchair, you know?
Nik Lewis: Exactly ⦠yeah.
And, you know, and-
Rupert Isaacson: It's-
Nik Lewis: Yeah, our orange thoroughbred
has self-preservation, it's not flash.
So he's quite often kinda like, "Oh, ow.
Oh, ow."
'Cause he'll come screaming
down the hill bucking, you know?
And it's like- Yeah ⦠"Dude,
it just rained yesterday."
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Yeah.
Nik Lewis: But I'm not gonna wrap them up.
I'm not gonna wrap them up.
I have g- haven't got the
facilities to wrap them up.
I, I don't, I don'tâ¦
You know, the whole stabling
overnight or stabling horses, that's
not, that's something us Kiwis,
and I'll generalize here, don't do.
We put a cover on them
and you'll be right.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
I mean, if you, if, it, as
long as they've got a way to
reduce the worst of the weather.
Mm.
Yeah.
I mean, there's- Uh-huh ⦠a reason
why when we grew up, the outdoor rugs
were always called New Zealand rugs.
Oh,
Nik Lewis: okay.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
That but, you know, for me it's the same.
I, I will keep my horses outside.
I like them to have a shelter that they
can get into that's where the footing is
dry, and they can get out of the wind.
Because so much of it is
climate driven, right?
If you're in, if you're in parts-
Absolutely ⦠of the world where there's,
like, serious icy wind and that sort
of thing, which I've often been- Yeah,
Nik Lewis: I get that
Rupert Isaacson: you know.
Nik Lewis: Yeah.
But- But- Yeah.
I see the photos of, like, horses with no
covers and they've got this much snow on
their backs, and I'm like- Yeah ⦠ooh.
Yeah.
I'd be, ooh.
But, you know, but they, but it's
no different than our Kaumanawas.
It's no different than the Northland
horses and living off the sand dunes.
And the horses will acclimatize,
and they will grow the fur and hold
the weight and find the food if
they've got the room to do that.
Rupert Isaacson: It's so interesting.
You know, we, we deal with, Like,
one of our best projects with
Horse Boys in the middle of Dublin.
So you think Ireland, green
fields, da-da, and not them.
They're right in the middle of the
city, and they're doing an incredible
service for kids that would, would
just never have that opportunity.
People might say, "Ah, but isn't
that abusive keeping the horses
in the middle of the city?"
Well, it would be if they never went out,
but of course they get rotated out, and
then have their herd structures respected.
They get turned out in the arenas
when they're in their working phase,
and then they get turned out in the
fields in County Meath in between.
So there's this rotation.
But the, the, so the need for free
movement in herd structures, I feel is
really the key to mental health in horses.
And you can't work with mental health
with humans, with horses, if you haven't
got mental health in your horses.
Yeah ⦠and I think it, this is something
that's only laterally really, people have
really been bringing their attention to.
And this, for me, was one of the
issues with some of the more old
school, environments that I was
looking at, you know, when we
were first coming to the field.
It's like, where is the herd
structure for these horses?
Where is the free movement?
Where is the grazing?
Where is the, you know, okay, if
you haven't got it, why are they not
being turned out in groups in the
arena at night with free feed hay?
And like, what, what, what are you doing?
Why haven't you got a plan B that they
rotate out and go out to a place in
the country- Mm ⦠you know, for two
weeks and then come back for two weeks
and rotate your horses in and out?
Like, these you, you think would
be the obvious things to do.
Or the the good long trail rides where you
ride one, lead one, or ride one, lead two.
Mm.
And just for their health and
their tendons and their everything,
'cause that's also social.
Why, why are these
strategies not in place?
Because you- you- we're thinking
about mental health here,
and these horses have brains.
So the brains will be healthy
or not healthy, you know?
And then we're gonna pair them up
with human brains and, you know.
So w- you talking about the way that
you approach your horse management,
I think really speaks to why you get
the results you get with your humans.
So I just want to bring
it back to the human now.
You talked about growing up in a
countryside that was pretty free, and
that you rode these long distances.
It was a bit the same for us.
If we went hunting, for example, you'd
never ⦠We did have a trailer, but
you'd never use it if the meet or the
show was l- say up to an hour ride away.
You'd always ride to it.
Mm-hmm ⦠hang out all day and
then ride home, and you could finish
three hours from home after dark out
hunting, and you'd just ride home.
Because as you said, back then
people expected to see stock on
the road even at night, and the
roads were way less busy and people
drove less fast and all of that.
Mm.
It was a different world.
That's gone.
I presume it's gone in
New Zealand, or at least-
Nik Lewis: Yeah, it's gone.
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
Nik Lewis: Yeah, and
we, yeah, we are very-
Rupert Isaacson: It is
more restricted now, yeah?
Nik Lewis: Yeah.
People just, you know, I, I very rarely
road ride now, and when it was something
I used to do frequently up until probably
five years ago, but I won't go n- because,
yeah, I g- I had a very close call
with a camper van, and I'm just like-
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah
⦠Nik Lewis: no.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Which, which-
Nik Lewis: But we are lucky and
fortunate where we are, because we've
got access to all the farms around us.
Rupert Isaacson: So you can ride-
So it does ⦠across the land.
Nik Lewis: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: See, not, as
you know- Yeah ⦠not everybody
does, and particularly in America-
No ⦠it's a real problem.
No.
Actually, Ireland too.
But- there's- Yeah ⦠a lot of people
who are just forced to ride along, along
lanes with nutters behind the wheel,
you know, playing Russian roulette.
This is one thing.
The other thing is the rural
populations have changed.
So when I was a kid, yeah,
we went out and we got drunk.
There was a certain amount of
dope smoking.
I'm talking about rural, not urban.
Nik Lewis: Mm.
Rupert Isaacson: But people in
the countryside weren't really
doing a lot of drug drugs.
The thi- what they call the
count- the county lines in the
UK had not been established.
We had these urban drug dealers who
would then recruit young kids to go out
into the villages on buses and trains
and sell hard drugs, class A drugs,
to the bored kids in the villages.
Wow.
That's now a huge thing in the UK.
They call it the county lines.
Very difficult for, to be policed
because they're all minors.
Drug use, violence, gangs, which we
always used to think of as urban, have now
become rural, and you just mentioned it.
Is that a recent change in New Zealand,
that this kind of social disease has crept
into the country, or was it always there?
Nik Lewis: I think it's starting to creep.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
Nik Lewis: I think, I think there's always
It, it's always been there a little bit.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Nik Lewis: Not a lot, just a little bit.
But it, it's starting to creep
further and, yeah, coming
out of towns, coming rurally.
It's starting to creep more and more,
and and, and it's moving up to class A.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Nik Lewis: I-
Rupert Isaacson: Why is that?
What, what changed in the population
from when you were a child to when I was?
'Cause we endangered our lives, right?
We, we did.
We ra- we rode at those big fences.
We had the need for risk and adrenaline.
We did it.
It was dangerous.
We sometimes did get hurt.
Nik Lewis: Yeah
⦠Rupert Isaacson: but
what's the difference?
But we weren't bored.
What's the difference now?
Why, why are the rural youth so,
feel that they need this stuff
when you and I felt we didn't?
Nik Lewis: Mm.
I think there's like 700 answers to that
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, but j-
Nik Lewis: j- Like-
Rupert Isaacson: Because
Nik Lewis: the- I, I think it's
got a lot to do with g- disconnect.
I think it's got a lot
to do with technology.
I think it's got a lot to do
with both parents have to work.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
Nik Lewis: I think it's got a lot to
do with, you know, the price of living.
It's got a lot to do with
now at instant gratification.
I've gotâ¦
I think it's just the world has got
really fast, really impatient, really loud
Loud.
And that's one of the things when
people come here is the first thing
they go, "Oh my God, it's so quiet
You don't even hear a car
Nothing
Rupert Isaacson: But for some
of the people- Sorry ⦠who are
coming to you out of the rural
setting, that's nothing new, right?
I mean, that's their reality as well, no?
Or not?
Nik Lewis: It depends
where you live rurally.
Okay.
Like we, so we're off a main rural road.
So there's a rural road,
but it's like a highway.
And we're off that.
We're actually two off that.
So w- you know, we're in nobody
land as far as a lot of people.
The biggest thing for us on our road
is, at this time of the year, milking's
started, so it's the milk trucks.
Apart from that, it's just the
local farmers and their wives or
partners going to town once a week.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
So it's still that rural and that quiet.
And the kids who live out
there, are they like you still?
When you were a kid, are
they still roaming on their
ponies and living that life?
Nik Lewis: I've got m- my
neighbor, my little girl
neighbor, she's living that life.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Nik Lewis: She's living that life.
Rupert Isaacson: So that life
is still there to be lived.
Nik Lewis: Yeah, and I think
part of her living that life is
because she's got me as a neighbor.
I don't know if she'd be living
that life if we weren't here.
Rupert Isaacson: Why?
Nik Lewis: Because like me,
she has a passion for horses
and her parents are like
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
So she comes over to you and, and gets to
Nik Lewis: live there.
She's got her own po- yeah, she's got her
own pony, and we've worked through, you
know, we've worked through stuff with her.
And so the pony grazes alone,
which doesn't rock my world.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
Nik Lewis: So we took her
for her first season hunting.
So you can imagine a pony that's
grazed on its own for four and
a half years going into a herd-
Was.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Nik Lewis: But we worked through
it, and we worked through it slowly.
We worked through it at the back, and
she finished the season beautifully.
But there are kids still on
their motorbikes playing.
There areâ¦
The kids are still kids out here.
Yeah.
They are still kids.
They're not mini adults yet.
So that's nice to see.
We go every year, we have a Christmas
party, and the local farmers throw
some hay bales on a trailer, and we
all jump on the hay ride and go to
the local hall and have a barbecue.
Yeah.
The Father Christmas that comes.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Nik Lewis: So there's still those real
cool old traditions that are happening.
Yeah, so things change when they leave
primary and have to go into town.
They have to go into town for school,
for either intermediate or college.
Things can change a little bit.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
Nik Lewis: Like us all, though.
Things change.
Yeah.
You get more people
around you, things change.
Rupert Isaacson: Yes.
You, you, you talked about
gang culture in some of the
towns, some of the local towns.
Was that always there
or was that a new thing?
And what are the gangs doing?
Is it, is it just all drug business?
Nik Lewis: The gang towns have been the
gang towns for as long as I can remember.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
So that was always there?
Nik Lewis: Yeah.
And what, what- The gangs that--
gangs are nothing new in New Zealand.
And some towns are more predominantlyâ¦
What is new is the new
gangs in New Zealand.
So you will always had, like, the Black
Power and the Mongrel Mob in New Zealand.
Now you've got, like, the Killer
Bees and, oh, I don't know.
Rupert Isaacson: And who are they?
What do they do?
What do they exist for?
Usually it comes down to money-
They- ⦠at the end of the day, right?
Yeah.
It's usually drugs.
Nik Lewis: It's all about money,
and they'll do it via drugs.
Okay.
Stealing
It's normally a drug racket.
P in New Zealand's wicked.
Methamphetamine is wicked.
It's just-
Rupert Isaacson: Okay
⦠Nik Lewis: right.
Rupert Isaacson: And, and, and is
methamphetamine a relatively recent
arrival or has it always been there?
Nik Lewis: Recent as in
probably the last, mm, crikey,
probably the last 15, 20 years.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
' Nik Lewis: Cause I forget
the years of roles, you know?
I kind of, yeah, I forget.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, sure.
What, what brought it in?
What changed it?
Why, h- why did it end up
in these smaller towns?
' Nik Lewis: Cause it's cheap to make.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay
And why wasn't it there before?
Straight
Nik Lewis: to my-
Rupert Isaacson: Because
Nik Lewis: speed- I don't know.
I-
' Rupert Isaacson: Cause speed was
always given, like, in the army.
That's how, that's how it ended up in
the UK, and that's why it was in the
biker gangs, you know, in the, after
the war, was methamphetamine was given
to soldiers in World War II to keep
'em up, keep 'em awake, keep 'em alert.
A lot of them got hooked,
figured out how to make it.
That became, you know, the Hell's
Angels thing because a lot of
those people were ex-servicemen.
Mm ⦠and then that whole thing evolved.
But so you can sort of see,
trace the history of that.
Nik Lewis: Yeah
⦠Rupert Isaacson: but what brought
it into New Zealand and, and why?
Nik Lewis: I don't know.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Nik Lewis: I don't know.
I, I kinda haven't dug
into the history of it.
I've just kind of, you
just see the train wrecks.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
And do you get much of that in your work?
Nik Lewis: I've worked with a
teenager who was a P baby, just one.
What's a P baby?
That I'm aware of.
A P baby, where mum was on
methamphetamine while she was pregnant.
Rupert Isaacson: Ah.
So a little bit like fetal alcohol.
Nik Lewis: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And what do
you, what do you see in a P baby?
What's the telltale sign?
Nik Lewis: It, it's just
a, a processing delay.
There's a processing delay.
Just sees the world a
little bit different.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Nik Lewis: And different in a
different way, you know what I mean?
Mm-hmm.
Hard to put words to it.
Yeah, very shy, very
insecure very withdrawn
So withdrawn.
Mm.
Mm.
Rupert Isaacson: Talk to me now about the
indigenous communities, Maori culture.
Although I pr- I believe
I'm mispronouncing it.
Should one say Maori?
I don't know.
I, I hear people-
Nik Lewis: Maori
⦠Rupert Isaacson: yeah,
people say it differently.
Nik Lewis: Mm
⦠Rupert Isaacson: how does this
influence or not influence what you do?
Are youâ¦
I- is it informing your work?
T- talk, talk to us about this.
Nik Lewis: Yes, it informs our
work because it's part of who
we are as New Zealand, Aotearoa.
It's part of who we are.
So weâ¦
And I suppose it's like anything,
it's what your belief or your values
or your ethics or what that is.
So we incorporate Maori cultures,
Maori beliefs in everything that
we do, but that's who we are.
So our line of thinking is
very much in relationship,
in relation to Maori tikanga.
Rupert Isaacson: What is Maori
Nik Lewis: tikanga?
I know.
Tikanga is traditions and cultures and
the way things should be done, you know?
What- So, mm.
Go
Rupert Isaacson: on.
Whatâ¦
And what are those?
Nik Lewis: So it is about belief.
Belief in, belief in kinda God, Earth,
sky, and so we call it the universe.
So there's that belief.
There's a belief about respecting
your elders, so that's just community
and lots of village beliefs in Maori.
But, yeah.
I, I just do what we do, but, and,
but it, a l- we align alongside
it if we have to define that.
I have my own personal issues of going,
"We do this because it is MÄori," or,
"We do this because it is European."
We do this because we are New Zealanders,
and I'm gonna get smoked for that comment.
Rupert Isaacson: Why?
Why would you get smoked for that comment?
Nik Lewis: Because it's, because,
As far as lots of people are
concerned, we're not New Zealanders.
We are Maori or European.
Rupert Isaacson: Oh, I see.
Nik Lewis: Where Iâ¦
Yeah, I grew up in a very
holistic belief, and we, weâ¦
I've carried that belief through
me, and we have a very holistic way
of doing things what we do here.
So there's threads of all cultures.
I'm Scottish Australian
criminal, you know.
There's a little Spanish
line in there as well.
So I'm multicultural myself.
Strong lines to Scotland, but
Yeah, I don't, and I know
that there is an, there is an
underpinning issue with the way
that lots of our Maori are treated.
There isâ¦
It's huge, that it is not okay.
That they, the way that they get
treated and the way that there is this-
What's the word I'm looking for?
There is this expectation
that they will fail
Yeah And, yeah, and- A
Rupert Isaacson: little bit like black,
black to white in the UK, in the USA.
Yeah.
Nik Lewis: Yeah.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
But it's ⦠Yeah.
But it's not how- Do you have, do you have
a lot of- You know, it's not how we roll
Rupert Isaacson: Do you
have a lot of Maori clients?
Nik Lewis: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: You do?
Nik Lewis: We probably have a 50/50
split if I was to do the stats.
Mm.
Rupert Isaacson: The Maori clients
that come to you, who are they?
Why do they come to you?
And what do they bring to the practice?
Nik Lewis: They, they come to
us for, for no other reasonâ¦
They come to us for the same peopl-
reasons that the Europeans come.
Rupert Isaacson: But what I mean is-
Nik Lewis: Their non-family-
⦠Rupert Isaacson: are they
coming, are they kids?
Are they coming from schools?
Are they adults coming
w- with mental health
Nik Lewis: issues?
Most of them are coming
via Oranga Tamariki.
Most of them are coming via school
or a government organization.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
And are they coming for learning?
Are they coming for mental health?
Are they comingâ¦
What are they coming for?
Nik Lewis: A lot of my younger
kids come for regulation.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Nik Lewis: A lot of my younger
primary school lovelies, they
come for regulation and, yeah,
regulation would be their key thing.
To understand why they just
go off at the drop of a hat.
To understand what their body is feeling.
To understand that actually before
the mouth starts there's a whole
reaction that happens in their body.
They don't even feel it coming.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Nik Lewis: So it's bringing
an awareness to that.
Rupert Isaacson: And you
help me to understand that
Nik Lewis: Yeah.
We talk about volcanoes.
Talk a lot about volcanoes.
Little ones, big ones, giant ones.
And what it feels like in our
bellies, in our toes, and yeah, in
the little stumpy people in our heads.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay
Nik Lewis: Mm.
Rupert Isaacson: W- w- do you, do you get
an older Maori population as well, adult?
And if so, where do they come from?
How do they arrive?
And what are the issues there?
Nik Lewis: Lots of those actually
are privates, what I'd call privates.
They've found us.
They don't come through an agency.
They're privates.
And they are there, two of mine are
here at the moment for just ⦠and
'cause they're neurodiverse,
it's something to grow them.
It's growth-
Rupert Isaacson: Now, w-within
Maori culture, which is very, says
Rupert the expert on Maori culture,
obviously n-I know almost nothing.
But, but- I think that matters, yeah
⦠within, within indigenous culture, let's
say, which I do know something about
having lived it for a long time- Mm-hmm
⦠family structures are strong even when
they're ⦠And traditional structures
and spiritual structures are strong, and
relationship with the land is strong.
So one might, might be forgiven for
thinking, well, why would somebody
who's looking for neurocognitive
stuff need to come to you or to me
if they're already in that system?
Surely all of the resources that
they would need would be right
there in the Maori community and
the Maori outlook and way of life.
Why would they come to you?
And your ponies
Nik Lewis: Because like the rest of the
world, those structures are breaking down
Rupert Isaacson: Okay
Nik Lewis: Those structures
are breaking down.
The, the whÄnau, the whenua.
So whÄnau is family, whenua is land.
And the spiritual, the word for
that has popped out of my head.
But those, those things are breaking down
Rupert Isaacson: Okay
Nik Lewis: And, and, but it, like
I say, it's no different than the,
the breakdown in my own family.
Rupert Isaacson: Sure.
Was your familyâ¦
What did your parents do, and
were they curious about the
indigenous way of life or did they
see themselves as very separate?
Nik Lewis: Never separate.
We were incorporated.
We wereâ¦
Me personally, myself, I, I
was whÄnau with my best friend.
Was- What does that mean?
⦠like my sister.
WhÄnau, family.
I lived there.
Rupert Isaacson: With a
Ma- with a MÄori girl?
Nik Lewis: Mm-hmm.
It was her whole whÄnau.
Grandma, Grandfather, sisters, cousins.
Rupert Isaacson: Why were your, why was
your family less colonial in outlook?
Why, what did your
parents do for a living?
Nik Lewis: Mm, my dad was a
shepherd and then he was a far- he
was a shepherd and then he was a
contract fencer back in those days.
Rupert Isaacson: A contract fencer?
Nik Lewis: Mm.
Yeah.
So that's when the go-
government- Yeah ⦠used toâ¦
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Fencing-
Nik Lewis: Back in the day ⦠those guys
Rupert Isaacson: back.
Nik Lewis: But youâ¦
We, we grew up in a small rural
community, so your neighbors were whÄnau.
Everybody knew and helped everybody.
It was a village.
We went to a little rural school
where you were lucky at its
peak if it might've hit 60.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Okay.
Nik Lewis: And that's from beginning
of school to going to college.
So you went to school with
the same kids for years.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
Nik Lewis: And years and years and years.
So they became family.
And you knew what was happening and,
you know, we, we might not have known-
Rupert Isaacson: Were all parts of, of
New Zealand as racially integrated or
was that particular to the geography
of the place that you were at?
Like, was there more separation?
Would there be people who had the,
grew up at the same time as you who
said, "No, all the people in my school
were white despite the fact that
w- I was in a rural area," or, "All
the people in my school were MÄori"?
Whatâ¦
Was there something unusual about
your area that it was so integrated?
Nik Lewis: I, I don't, myâ¦
This is only my opinion.
I do not have any research, but
m- my opinion is that rurally,
back in the early '70s, all rural
communities were kinda like this.
'Cause we would go from here, and
we'd go on school trips or sports
exchanges, and it would be to
the middle of Kaingaroa Forest.
And so, which was predominantly
MÄori, but we wereâ¦
It was just we were going to the school.
We were going there to play sport.
Rupert Isaacson: And,
Nik Lewis: okay.
It wasn't about a culture exchange.
It wasn't, it was just-
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
Sure
⦠Nik Lewis: it was, it was just a school.
But racism wasn't a
Rupert Isaacson: thing?
Racism wasn't a thing?
Nik Lewis: Not that I was aware of.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Nik Lewis: And I haven'tâ¦
I've never hit racism-
Rupert Isaacson: Okay, so, so you find-
within myself ⦠so, so, so the
difficulties that, that areâ¦
Because you did say a few minutes
ago there's an expectation that
MÄori kids would fail in New
Zealand, that that racism is there.
But yet you say that when you were
growing up that racism wasn't there.
Where's the, where's the disconnect
between y- this integrated life
that you had between the cultures
and the expectation of failure
between from white to MÄori culture?
Like, those are two different stories, so-
Nik Lewis: Mm
⦠Rupert Isaacson: do you see what I mean?
It's- I'm trying to figure out the-
Nik Lewis: Yeah.
So is it an age thing?
As a kid, you're just a kid.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
Nik Lewis: And then as
Rupert Isaacson: you get older- But
your, your parents are not saying,
"You can't go and hang out in
the house of those people because
they're different to us."
Nik Lewis: No, no, n- no
Rupert Isaacson: Okay
Nik Lewis: No.
I, I've seen it and I've witnessed it, and
I've objected to it where I've seen it in
coworkers, where they expect- where the
comments of, "Well, what do you expect?"
That, that's just crap.
Absolute crap.
So, you know, so I've heard
it, but that's as an adult.
Mm.
That's as a grown-up, that'sâ¦
So were we, we would have known
if we couldn't hang out with our
mates down the road or whatever,
but that was never, no way.
That was mm-mm.
But now, I don't think it is now either.
I, I d- I don't know.
I don't know the answers
and I don't know why.
I don't know what the why is either.
I don't know.
I know it is there.
I know it is hard and
fast But poli-, yeah.
Politics and that stuff is
something I tend to run away from.
Rupert Isaacson: Sure.
Nik Lewis: I, I haveâ¦
Yeah, you know?
And I have the vibe and I wanna ooze
the vibe that I don't give a rat's who
you are, really what your breeding is.
It's a bit like our Motley
horse says- Indeed ⦠I don't
care what your breeding is.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
No, sure.
It's- We're all products of the
Nik Lewis: planet ⦠it's this.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Nik Lewis: Yeah.
We are all products.
I don't know.
I know it's been there.
I know there's been racial
wars in New Zealand.
I know all that stuff.
I don't know why,
Rupert Isaacson: but- Well,
I mean, colonialism and-
Nik Lewis: It's the age-old
thing, eh, that the Europeans-
Well ⦠think that they're better.
Rupert Isaacson: Well, well, I
mean, the, the history's easy.
I mean, you know, Euro- Yeah ⦠Europeans
show up and with weapons- Mm
and take the land.
Nik Lewis: Yeah
⦠Rupert Isaacson: and MÄoris had been
warring with each other as well.
They're- Mm ⦠not saints.
And plenty of, you know, war and atrocity
and conquest in their history as well.
But it'sâ¦
So, that's easy to understand.
What, what's interesting for me, though,
is I guess the reason I'm asking these
questions here around you and your
practice is that when we look from the
West, I mean, New Zealand's part of
the West, but you know what I mean.
When we look from the Northern Hemisphere
down to New Zealand, read what comes
through in the media, basically we're
often reading about success stories
with indigenous land rights advances
in the political situation for MÄori.
It seems to be a place that actually is a
bit of a beacon of doing the right thing.
If it started with the wrong
thing, it's, you know, going
more towards the right thing.
Is that actually not the case
so much, or is it actually
Nik Lewis: a- No, it is.
There is lots of good stuff happening.
Okay.
There is lots of good stuff happening.
Like, you know, there's lots and lots
of good stuff happening, and I think
as far as you look at somewhere like in
the, the States, what happens there- Mm
I think we are leaps and
bounds ahead of the States.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Nik Lewis: Yeah, I do.
Have we got it right?
No.
Will we ever get it right?
I don't know.
But I think we're, we're, we
are advanced in lots of ways.
Rupert Isaacson: There's more of perhaps
of an intention to get it right maybe.
Nik Lewis: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: I mean, one sees
MÄori- And more of an intention-
in parliament there.
One sees- Mm ⦠indigenous ceremony
happening alongside English- parliamentary
tradition or, you know, y- we see TikTok
videos of this happening, you know?
So we assume-
Nik Lewis: Oh
⦠Rupert Isaacson: you know,
this must be happening or they
wouldn't be able to film it.
Nik Lewis: Yeah.
It is happening.
It is happening, but there's
still the undercurrent.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Nik Lewis: You know, I, I would be
bullshitting if I said there wasn't.
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
Nik Lewis: Do you- You know?
There's still an undercurrent, but then
there's still, you know, and that's ⦠I
know it's racial, but there's still
undercurrent with lots of, lots of-
Lots of different cultures in New
Zealand, whether it be sexuality, whether
it be that there- we've got a lot of
We're now multicultural.
There's a lot of undercurrents, and
I imagine that in every country.
Rupert Isaacson: Yes, for sure.
When you're, you're, you're there on
the land, you're there in a remote place
you're there very much with nature.
The Maori were the people who were there
before the Europeans, so therefore their
relationship with that nature and that
land predates yours, mine, whatever.
Nik Lewis: Mm.
Rupert Isaacson: Do you incorporate
ceremony spiritual practice
of that into what you do?
Nik Lewis: No.
Not in the true sense, no.
No.
Rupert Isaacson: Is it, is
it part of the conversation?
Like, do, do you say for example, if, if
you identify a bird for a kid and say,
"That's a such and such," do you then
say, "That's the English name for it.
The Maori name for it
would be this," you know?
"And to the English it means
this, but to the Maori, the
stories around it are this."
Like, d- does that kind of thing creep in?
Nik Lewis: Yeah.
We integrate all the time.
We integrate language.
We integrate phrases.
We integrate- Everything, if, yeah, if
you were to kind of sit down, yeah, you
would hear a lot of, a lot of Maoriâ¦
Not a lot of Maori language, but
you'd hear specks of it, what I know.
And that's only what I know.
So you know, there's,
there's a parallel there.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Yeah, so- And in terms of stories,
you know, 'cause, 'cause, 'cause the
human mind works through story, right?
You know, that's what-
True ⦠this podcast is.
That's what our practice
really is, isn't it?
I mean, people arrive with
a question, with a dilemma.
That's why they walk through your door.
Mm.
And then there's a story of how
they address that dilemma, which
happens to be your way, you know.
Yeah.
So are the Maori stories and as, asâ¦
and also actually the Scottish stories
and all of that is do those come through?
Do those arrive in the, in the course of-
Nik Lewis: Sometimes.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Can you give us a couple of examples?
Sometimes.
I'm just sort of intrigued.
Nik Lewis: You know, you, you canâ¦
We talk about the sky gods.
I'm, I'm not very good
with my Scottish history.
I have to be 100% there.
But,
Rupert Isaacson: Talk a- talk
to us about the sky gods.
Tell us about them.
Nik Lewis: So, you know, and
we do, we celebrate Matariki.
Rupert Isaacson: What is that?
Nik Lewis: Matariki is the Maori New Year.
Okay.
Which is it's in June, and
it's when there's the cluster
of seven s- stars in the sky.
Rupert Isaacson: The
Nik Lewis: Pleiades.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Nik Lewis: Yeah.
Or the Subaru sign or whatever.
And so we have all those conversations
that it's Maori New Year, and
it's like the plantings andâ¦
Yeah.
But it depends.
It depends on who, what,
where, and what's come up.
You know, my, my knowledge is there.
It, it's not vast, but it's there,
so if I have to go there, I, I can go
there and, and go there comfortably.
Rupert Isaacson: Tell us about the sky
gods, and how might they be talked about
in, in the course of a day at your farm?
Nik Lewis: How they might be talked about?
I suppose I talked about the
sky gods and the universe.
I talked-
Rupert Isaacson: But tell
us about the sky gods.
What, who are they, and
what are their qualities?
What do they do?
Nik Lewis: I don't know.
I don'tâ¦
We just talk about them as generic.
Okay.
I talk about them as generic,
and I talk about them as the
universe and that kind of stuff.
Weâ¦
Yeah, I'm not very specific.
Y-
Rupert Isaacson: y- you don't have,
like, a Thor and an Odin and a Frey.
They- they- they're not specific names,
specific personalities, the sky gods?
Nik Lewis: No.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Is it moreâ¦
And, and is, is that true would you
say across Murri culture, or do they
have specific names and personalities?
Or is it more- ⦠sort
of no, this is a sort of-
Nik Lewis: It, it's more,
it's more sky, earth, sea.
Rupert Isaacson: Got it.
Nik Lewis: And you're gonna
ask me for the names, eh?
Rupert Isaacson: Not
necessarily the names.
I'm, I'mâ¦
What I'm, what I'm, what I'm-
Nik Lewis: The one,
⦠Rupert Isaacson: digging for
here is the sort of personality.
Like, let's say if you were, if
you were talking about Father Sky-
Nik Lewis: Mm ⦠in
Rupert Isaacson: Western Indo-European
traditions, which could end up in
a personality like Zeus or Odin
or, you know, some patriarchal
figure Kronos, Saturn, you know.
Each one
governing a sort of a set of human
emotions and weather patterns and
climactic agricultural fortune, you know?
Therefore being appeased or sacrificed
to or prayed to or blah, blah, blah.
And then you might have Mother
Earth, you know, Gaia th- th-
these things a- and, and the same-
Nik Lewis: Mm
Rupert Isaacson: multiple personalities.
It could be Persephone.
It could be Persephone's mother.
It could be, you know, all, all
of these different female aspects
all to be worshiped, dealt with,
ceremonies around that- Now,
Nik Lewis: I'm not being rude.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Nik Lewis: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: I'm just,
Nik Lewis: I knew I heard it.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Okay, cool.
All right.
Sorry.
That's fine.
All right, tell us about this.
Nik Lewis: So Atua.
So this-
Rupert Isaacson: Atua
⦠Nik Lewis: so this is a great
book, and it's a great book to talk
about some of the Maori stories
and how it relates to emotions.
Okay.
And so if you've got a rompy stompy,
he's kind of been a bit of a Tangaroa.
Rupert Isaacson: A bit of a?
Nik Lewis: Tangaroa
Rupert Isaacson: Stompy.
Tangaroa?
Yeah.
Tell us
Nik Lewis: about
Rupert Isaacson: that person.
Nik Lewis: So Tan- Tan- Tangaroa
can be a little bit grumpy.
Rupert Isaacson: Is that a, is that a god?
Is that a spirit?
Nik Lewis: Yeah, so it's one
of the gods or the, the myths
Yeah.
You're probably talking to
the most uneducated Maori
person out, you know that, eh?
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But it's, it's, it's, it's still
Nik Lewis: interesting.
But like- Just tell us what you know
like I said earlier, if we
don't know, we go and find out.
And if we need to deal with,
then we read up and we deal with.
You know, it's like we're not, yeah
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
So you would, you would, for example,
if, if I say if someone's having a rompy
stompy, I love that, a rompy stompy.
Such a nice way of putting ⦠not,
not escalating the the drama.
A rompy stompy.
Nik Lewis: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: You would ⦠You
could, you could find a parallel in
⦠Give me the name of that god again?
Nik Lewis: Tangaroa.
I think it's Tangaroa
Rupert Isaacson: Tangaroa, and Tangaroa
romps and stomps, and maybe that's-
Yeah ⦠and- Little bit of Would
Tangaroa- ⦠sort of be aligned
to tectonic activity, volcanoes,
earthquakes, that sort of thing?
The ship-
Nik Lewis: Yeah, and then you could align,
you align it to kinda like Ruapehu, you
know, a mountain just down the road.
Ruapehu kind of, kind of
spits out every now and then.
So it's easy to bring it home.
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
So you doâ¦
So basically the answer is yes,
you are using the mythology and
the spirituality of the place to
draw the parallels for the humans.
In what's going on with them.
Whether-
Nik Lewis: Yeah, and I, yeah,
you're, you're quite right.
I've just never really
unpacked it with myself.
Rupert Isaacson: Allegory
and story is so important.
You know, I, one of the things
which I, it, it always surprises
me given that every person watches
stories, every kid imbibes stories.
They show up, you know, having watched
Marvel or Lord of the Rings or whatever,
which are all just recycles, endless
recycles of the same myth cycles that
you find in every culture because
they reflect- Mm ⦠life, right?
And they, and, and the natural
cycles 'cause they reflect human
life, and human life reflects those.
But you just don't see this reflected
much in equine-assisted practice, which
I'm always surprised about, you know?
So, when, let's say, I don't know,
you're, you have an arena in Ireland.
Nik Lewis: Mm.
Rupert Isaacson: You're doing it there.
Why aren't you, why don't you have
your gods and your goddesses and your
mythical figures and all that painted
on the walls and, of, of your arena?
And then you can say, you can tell
the stories as you go, and this one
causes trouble with that one, but
then this one makes peace with that
one, and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
But also it roots people in the
place, the sense of place, the land.
'Cause, you know, I think, I think you
were talking about the breakdown of Maori
culture or the breakdown of rural culture,
the breakdown of family traditions,
white or non-white, blah, blah.
These all come down,
these stories are all-
Nik Lewis: Mm
⦠Rupert Isaacson: told in the mythologies,
but also it's the mythologies that
keep those family structures together.
Nik Lewis: Mm
⦠Rupert Isaacson: and so the, the more we
celebrate them and the more we actively
do them or talk about them or relate them
or bring them into our practice, the more
we actually give people a sense of place.
And I think the sense of place, when
that goes, is what leads to a lot of the
social breakdowns and a lot of theâ¦
So if one can bring people back to a sense
of place and say, "Yeah, you are here.
You are from here.
You were born here.
This landâ¦"
And it sounds like you're
actually doing all of this.
You're relating it to the mountain.
You're relating it toâ¦
But it's maybe something that you're doing
somewhat spontaneously- Mm ⦠rather
than saying, you know, we'll make a
deliberate targeted practice of this.
Yet I think you are piecing together,
reading between the lines of this
conversation the last couple of hours,
that is exactly what you've been doing.
And I just wonder if that could
be a really nice next step.
Mm.
I think that's kind of where I want to
take my work, for example, but I could
really see that happening so well for
you to say, "Okay, let's reallyâ¦"
You know, you pulled out that book
just now, and when I challenged you,
you actually did have the names of
the gods, and you did, you did say- Mm
"Okay, this is what, how
I use it in my practice."
It might be y- y- you're coming over
in a f- couple of weeks to spend
some time with us . I think maybe we
should, over a couple of bottles of
wine, figure out how it might be fun,
you know, to incorporate this story.
I, I, I'll give you an example.
We were living in Germany, and we
had lots of kids coming up from
the Frankfurt International School.
And, We realized most of these
kids were English-speaking.
They weren't necessarily all American,
but a lot of them were, and many of them
had come from parents who were getting
corporate assignments or civil service
assignments or military assignments moving
from one culture to a- country to another.
So they might have just come from
China or the Philippines or Mexico
City, but their grandparents lived
in Houston, and they found themselves
here in rural Germany, and we realized
they didn't know where they were, and
they were really lost and confused.
And so, so, so we would
say, "Okay, this is Germany.
You see that hill over there?
That's called the Kellerskopf.
It's called that because it's actually
not a keller, a cellar, in German.
It's a mountain.
That'sâ¦
It's the opposite, right?
No, it's a corruption of
the word Celt, Kelterskopf.
The people that had the fortress up
there 2,000 years ago before the Romans
came into it was, were Celts, and they
were called the Mattiaci, and they
were horse people, and they lived down
there in that town of Wiesbaden, which
means water meadows because it was a
place of- where you could raise horses
along the banks of the river, and
it's where these hot springs, healing
hot springs come out that we go to.
Yeah, you can go to those
hot springs even now."
And the reason why the farm looks like,
the farmland looks like it does without
isolated farms on it, where all the farms
are actually in the villages, is 'cause of
this cataclysmic set of wars that they had
where, in the 17th century, where if you
had a farmhouse standing alone, it would
just get wiped out by all the soldiers.
So you didn't haveâ¦
You know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
And we would tell them the stories
and tell them the stories and
tell them that g- take it back.
Who were the Romans?
You know, who were the, who
were the Germanic tribes?
Who were the Celtic tribes?
What did they worship?
What did they do?
What, what was their
relationship with the oak tree?
Oh, these are oak trees.
What was their relationship
with the beech tree?
So you would ground it in story, and
then what I would often- Okay ⦠do is
say, 'cause they were all into Marvel and
things, and say, "Well, you know Thor in
Marvel, or you know Loki in Marvel, or you
know the X-Men, but the X-Men are actually
composites of all these other things."
And then we can start to relate it to
where they actually physically were
w- and like you were doing, we could
bring in language and eat the snacks
that were German, and, you know, but-
Nik Lewis: Mm-hmm
⦠Rupert Isaacson: but we could also
tell the stories and then relate the
stories to those- Hollywood produced
stories that they were imbibing, which
also are kind of rootless, but actually
are rooted in these older traditions.
And it sounds to me like that's
exactly what you're doing, Nic.
Yeah.
But maybe you haven't been
doing it so consciously.
No, maybe not.
And
Nik Lewis: maybe that's
Rupert Isaacson: part of your
success, is that you ground
people to that sense of place when
they're feeling rootless and lost.
Nik Lewis: Yeah.
So, but I also think it's because not
enough of these conversations happen.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
Nik Lewis: In
Rupert Isaacson: our world.
Yeah, because your average equine-assisted
conversation's gonna be around,
well, what do you do for regulation?
Or, you know, how do you get neuroco-
Nik Lewis: Yeah
⦠Rupert Isaacson: but of course, regulation
Nik Lewis: is- 'Cause as soon asâ¦
Yeah, like you say, as soon as you
kind of challenged me and I actually
really had to sit and think, and go,
"Oh my God, what do I actually do?"
And then, so as soon as we say I got
my book and, and looked at stuff,
all these amazing ideas started
coming into my head on what I can
do in my arena to celebrate this.
So, you know, it's kind of like you
can get stuck in everyday stuff.
You can get stuck there.
So it's, it is important to have
these conversations, whether we agree
or disagree, but it is important to
have, 'cause it opens up our minds.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Nik Lewis: Otherwise, yeah.
It moves our
Rupert Isaacson: practice forward, right?
It, it, it- Mm.
Absolutely ⦠it opens up our practice.
And if you're a kid, do you want
to be having therapy or do you
want to engage in play and story?
I know which one I would want.
Nik Lewis: Exactly.
Yeah.
Yeah, I know.
Exactly.
Okay.
So, you know, yeah.
And yeah, and I, and I know that
I've always kind of struggled
to find a village, and, and a
village that I am comfortable with.
That's a whole new story.
But, you know, but I can do that
with, with you and Eliani, and who-
and, like, our team that trained on.
And if I need to- Mm ⦠I
know that my village is there.
I think there's a lot of-
Yeah, there's a lot of
people on their own.
I think there's a bit of that,
and people get a bit stuck.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
Nik Lewis: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, everyone
needs that sense of belonging.
We are social- Yeah ⦠apes.
We're, and we're a fragmented world now.
Mm.
But at the same time, we're still
absolutely rooted to the planet, and
we're absolutely rooted to our ancestors.
And it'sâ¦
And horses are such an interesting
allegory for that because wherever
you put horses, they will just adopt
the same herd structure and be horses.
But yet they themselves- Yeah ⦠have
a story, you know, because they've been
taken to all sorts of parts of the world
that they didn't- they never came from.
There were never horses-
Yeah ⦠in New Zealand, right?
You know, Europeans brought them.
They came to the Americas that way.
So if, if the horses were telling
their story, they'd say they'd be
telling stories of the ancestral
Eurasian Steppes, you know.
And then they might have a mythology
based on gods in North America because
they had been there 40,000 years ago,
and then disappeared- Oh ⦠after that
Ice Age and went over across to Europe.
You know, if you could imagine the horses
telling their stories and then the stories
of how we got to New Zealand and howâ¦
That might be a really interesting,
you know, thing o- o- of creating
a series of stories in New Zealand
but from the horse's point of view.
Like, how did we get here?
Which provide an allegory, if you
like, a metaphor for any human.
Nik Lewis: Mm.
Like,
Rupert Isaacson: how did we get here?
'Cause even a Maori who'd say,
"Well, we were always here."
It's like, well, no,
you weren't, actually.
You guys came in as well from elsewhere.
Where did you come in from?
What's the story?
What's the story?
Who were
Nik Lewis: your people?
Could you imagine playing that out?
Yeah.
That would be so cool.
Rupert Isaacson: Living history.
Mm.
Writing it down, having it in the imagery.
Mm.
Constantly bringing that into
the conversation that happens in
the practice that we're doing.
Sense of belonging- Mm ⦠sense of
place, sense of ancestry, sense of
also endless possibility because just
'cause you come from a place doesn't
mean you can't go to another place.
But you carryâ¦
Doesn't mean you're stu- have
to be stuck, but wherever you
go, you carry those stories with
you, and those are your skills.
Those are your competences.
Those are your, your
magics that you bring.
I might challenge you actually to
delve more into your Scottish ancestry
'cause there's all kinds of Celtic
and Viking magic in that and how
that comes together with the Maori.
And-
Nik Lewis: Mm
⦠' Rupert Isaacson: cause that just makes you
more interesting to hang out with, right?
You just got more stories to tell.
Awesome
Nik Lewis: stuff.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Yeah.
And then what would the horses say?
And I actually myself had not thought
of that until this conversation, so
thank you for sparking that little
thought in me because I can feel
a, I can feel a book coming on.
Nik Lewis: Oh, can you now?
Rupert Isaacson: That might beâ¦
Ooh, yeah.
Nik Lewis: Mm.
Rupert Isaacson: Ooh.
Nik Lewis: Yeah.
But yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Nik Lewis: It's, yeah, it is, it
is interesting and it is, yeah.
Like, we love what we do.
Some days are easy, some days are hard.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Nik Lewis: But that's life.
Yeah.
And that's what I tell myâ¦
That's, that's, it's like, yeah, I
know it's hard, but we're all right.
We'll just keep going.
Rupert Isaacson: And it's an epic story.
I think, I think that's the other
thing to, to, to impart to children,
and adults who are going through these
things that come to you, is your,
you, you are your own hero's journey.
Show me a hero's journey where
they don't meet demons and dragons.
Exactly ⦠some days it's demon day
and dragon day, and other days it's- Yep
feasting in the castle day.
But you can't have one without the other.
But isn't there something cool about the
days when you're out there dragon slaying?
Isn't there something cool about
the fact that you can go out there-
Nik Lewis: Mm
⦠Rupert Isaacson: and do battle
with the demons, even if they hand
you your ass from time to time?
Nik Lewis: Yep.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Nik Lewis: Yeah.
Absolutely.
Rupert Isaacson: Self-respect.
Like, you're out there dealing.
That's cool.
You're a warrior, you know?
Nik Lewis: Mm.
Yeah.
And I, and we do that a lot with our kids.
We, we celebrate, like, one of our
key things is we celebrate weirdness.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Nik Lewis: We celebrate- Key
point ⦠being weird, and my kids,
they're like, you know, they love it.
And it's like, "You need to find
your superpower fright pants today."
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
' Nik Lewis: Cause this is, we're gonna
try this today and you need toâ¦
And we don't do surprises.
Like, everything is like, I had
a, I've had a young lad who there
was no way on this earth that
he was ever going to hold reins.
I'm like, "Well, we'll justâ¦"
And I had rope reins that clipped onto
the halter, and I said, "Well, we'll
just put them there to look at next week.
Okay?
We're gonna put them there
to look at next week."
He's like, so he looked at them, and
I said, "Well, maybe next week we
might try what they might feel like."
You know?
And that, and then this week
he held the reins and, oh
I'm never letting go of these reins.
So I went, "Aren't you now?"
So it's just you've gotta feed,
you've gotta feed their superpowers.
We've, I think we feed
superpowers very well.
You know, I'm not very good at-
Blowing my trumpet, I suppose.
But I think what we do, we do well.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
I think there's no doubt.
So listen, people will want to check
you out and find out about you, and
we're at the two-hour mark, so it's
a good time to, to, to wind this
up, at least this iteration of it.
Great.
I think we'll have you
on, on the show again.
I'd love to del- delve deeper
into the story aspect with you.
I'd love that ⦠but people that
want to know how to contact you,
where to find you, give us the plugs.
W- w- where do they find you on the net?
How do they-
Nik Lewis: they can find us
on good old Book of Faces.
So we're Horses R Us.
Just Horses R Us on the Book of Faces.
We do have a website, which is, you
know, the good old www.horsesrusnz,
one word, .com.
That's our website.
Horses
Rupert Isaacson: R with
a, with an R or an A-R-E?
Horses Are Us?
Nik Lewis: No, just an R.
Rupert Isaacson: Horsesrusnz.
Nik Lewis: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Dot-
. Nik Lewis: com
⦠. Rupert Isaacson: com.
Nik Lewis: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: It's fine.
And people can find an
email link to you there?
Nik Lewis: They can find
email links to us there.
They can find, yeah, my phone,
the business phone number,
and whatever they need.
They can find me.
Rupert Isaacson: Simple.
horsesrusnz.com.
Nik Lewis: Yep.
Rupert Isaacson: All right.
Nic Lewis will feed your
superpower if you- Thank
Nik Lewis: you
⦠Rupert Isaacson: contact her.
Nik Lewis: I can go and start
re-panicking about all the flights
I have to do to get to you.
Rupert Isaacson: Yes, yes, yes, yes.
I hope you've got some good books to
read 'cause it's a, it's a long one.
I know.
I
Nik Lewis: know.
Rupert Isaacson: But hopefully we'll make
it worth your while when you get here.
Nik Lewis: Oh, absolutely you will.
I'm so excited.
Rupert Isaacson: Me too.
Nik Lewis: I'm so excited.
All right.
Rupert Isaacson: All right, my love.
Thank you, and thank you
so much for, for this-
Nik Lewis: You're welcome.
Thank you ⦠this
Rupert Isaacson: brilliant conversation.
Nik Lewis: All right
⦠Rupert Isaacson: I look
forward to the next one.
Till then.
Nik Lewis: I know.
Me too.
It'll be in person.
Rupert Isaacson: It will.
Nik Lewis: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Till then.
Nik Lewis: All right.
Bye.
Good night.
Rupert Isaacson: Good night.
Nik Lewis: Bye-bye.
Rupert Isaacson: I hope you enjoyed
today's conversation as much as I did.
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