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The Monolith is a podcast about navigating exponential change without losing your humanity. What began as an exploration of design thinking inside large organizations, has evolved into a broader inquiry: how people and institutions adapt when legacy systems fail, and new ones arrive faster than we can name them. Each episode explores the present through systems thinking, economics, hacking mindsets, and cycles of change. The Monolith isn’t futurism for spectacle. It’s pattern literacy for people who sense the shift and want agency to thrive inside it.
Cameron Craig (00:02.009)
Hey, Keith. Well, it's the end of the year, and clearly the weather is quite not great where you are.
Keith (00:03.096)
Cameron, what's happening man?
Keith (00:11.946)
Yeah, as soon as we logged on, you're like, sounds very New Yorkie. And I'm like, huh? And it's like, because someone was shoveling out the window. We just had snow last night. I'm like, and then you made the comment about like snow and static kind of being the same thing because it it's it cuts through the mic. So it's just kind of like an uncommon like it's like a skateboard. You know that it's like someone's peeling the pavement back when you hear it.
Cameron Craig (00:20.069)
Yeah.
Cameron Craig (00:34.413)
Yeah, well, I mean, you know, for the kids back in the day when there was broadcast television, that sound of static was called snow. Yeah, see, even you forgot, Keith.
Keith (00:40.76)
kids.
Keith (00:44.644)
it's right.
Keith (00:48.878)
I spent so long ago, man.
I'm speaking of snow and static should be the layout now is like two up left and right it's not one over the other I don't know what happened whatever
Cameron Craig (01:04.933)
All right, you can change it. You can change that. Just go down to the bottom to layout and show layouts. And then you pick a layout.
Keith (01:16.462)
I only got Mark Clip, mic, cam, speaker.
Cameron Craig (01:19.991)
Here, let me see if I can do it.
Cameron Craig (01:25.657)
Did it change?
Keith (01:26.752)
Yeah. you're in control.
Cameron Craig (01:30.233)
Yeah, I think whoever starts it ends up being in control, but I don't have a top and bottom. I only have like the wide view and the...
Keith (01:38.204)
there we go. Yeah. Yeah. There's a lot you can do with the session. Like rolling it. Yeah. So it's kind of cool. You can do with it. mean, I've been watching other people's podcasts. I mean, yeah. It's
Cameron Craig (01:39.877)
Like I said.
Cameron Craig (01:49.926)
The Keith Show. It's the Kam and Keith Show. Keith's got something important to say. Kam and Keith are both saying something important. Hang on, Keith's off of the corner and there's something that they're showing. Wait a minute, oh, Keith's like... So good, anyway. Yeah.
Keith (01:59.685)
my god. It's like rounded corners, totally designers doing this shit too.
Keith (02:12.427)
Yeah, so we're end of the year. And maybe what we talking about earlier was we do like a kind of like a retrospective of like how the year was and what do we think 2026 is going to be like.
Cameron Craig (02:28.483)
Yeah, mean, word on the street, meaning everybody I encountered today walking the dogs or maybe this weekend, because this is like my normal weekend morning ritual. Everybody has just been in a place of, thank God, 2025 is about to end. Just, yeah, no one, no one's had, at least that I know, no one I know has had a good 2025.
Keith (02:49.741)
dude it was rough, yeah.
Keith (02:57.761)
There were, yeah. That mean.
Cameron Craig (02:58.009)
which is saying a lot.
Keith (03:03.277)
I think the ice started breaking. so the kind of the, what do call it? Like the, not the Pangea, like the continental shelves, whatever started splitting, but we kind of went back this fall. So it started, it sort of started feeling like we were going to move forward in the spring. And then it felt like in the summer into fall, was like, wait, why are we drifting backwards? And then now it's just like, Oh my God, I'm going be done with this thing.
Cameron Craig (03:28.013)
Yeah, I mean, which is crazy from one aspect we're on this, whether you're pro AI, anti AI, whatever, there's so much. There's so much changing and so much invention happening and so many things. Again, I this is not me commenting on the pro and con and from a year and wrap up, I think you and I have come at this in a bunch of different angles. So this is not this is not me without judgment.
me simply saying there's a lot of things that are changing. Some of it really great as we've called out and some of things not great. But it's amazing that with all of that change, you know, prevailing sentiment seems to be like, God, you know,
Keith (04:17.857)
Well, it's... people haven't...
people haven't put in place what happened with COVID. I mean, there's a lot of knock-on effects about isolation and a new medical therapy and the economy. We pumped all this money in the economy and then there's all these just emergent things that are happening. think people are just like, next year is gonna be a reckoning of a year because everything that the government's been doing
in the past like 40 years, whether it was like, war on terror economics, like the know, move fast, break things, scale at all costs possible. Like, when you have enough people who are unemployed in the labor market, and the labor market is just not coming back because of a epochal structural change vis a vis AI, like, there, you know, you have a lot of angry people hanging around with nothing to do. But
Cameron Craig (05:16.014)
Yeah.
Keith (05:20.651)
I'm still positive in general, not positive, like I'm positive something's going to happen, but I'm positive in terms of like a, I'm confident and optimistic about the future moving forward, just because I think it's going to be clear that we're not going back to where things were at all. And people are going to be like, well, enough stuff's happened that I got to make decisions and just move forward. And I think that's kind of the best, you know, the best move right now. All the outer planets that retrograde back. So.
Uranus Jupiter no Jupiter hasn't retrograded. Sorry Saturn Pluto. Sorry Saturn Neptune and Uranus I'm going on like four hours of sleep because I'm trying to do dude, no No Well, no, mean like dude you're on the west coast. I'm in the East Coast We're trying to make this happen. Like I want to do this I'm literally about to go run to B &H to go get like a whole bunch of new gear to kind of upgrade the studio because the stuff I've had here I kind of like hacked together the solution. So like it works good.
Cameron Craig (05:59.992)
Sorry, man. It's totally my fault too. Like, hey earlier.
Keith (06:20.866)
But that's part of why the bus on the computer was busting out because I'm mixing really high bandwidth and really low bandwidth signals together. And it's like putting a kid on a scooter on the highway. And it's like, there's going to be a car crash at some point, you know? that's anyway, speaking of AI, helping me troubleshoot all this stuff. was like, OK, now it makes sense.
Cameron Craig (06:39.845)
Yeah, and I've benefited from your Gen 1 setup. So I think I have your Gen 1.5 setup.
Keith (06:49.194)
dude, I'm gonna go get a prompter at this point now. I want to get a big one. They're a little pricey, but I like having a bigger just, it just feels more human when someone's like actual size and kind of like being in a tiny little, you know, half shoebox or whatever. But but yeah, it all good. Like, I forgot what the brand was going on what I was talking about now because it was like
Cameron Craig (06:52.217)
Yeah.
Cameron Craig (07:04.707)
Yeah. Yeah.
Cameron Craig (07:11.381)
change for 26. And you were sort of talking about the different things that have changed in 25, but where we're going to land.
Keith (07:15.018)
Yeah, the outer planets.
Yeah So we started feeling the change in the spring because the outer plan is just dipped into a new side and then they retrograde it back so uranus in Taurus or sorry uranus in gemini when it went and it goes back into torus right now The last time it happened was world war two Now the time it happened before that was the civil war and the time it happened before that was the american revolution So it's like a massive that's a big
war transit just from the US alone, let alone the globe. And then when Saturn and Neptune came together at the beginning of Aries, which is like the very, very beginning of the whole like zodiac cycle, whatever you want to call it, that was like 6,400 years ago, like 6,400. So this is like the beginning of religion, the beginning of recorded history, the beginning of like reading and writing and passing that on instead of just like song and dance or whatever, because that's how they, know, the Aboriginals or whatever did it.
Cameron Craig (08:04.008)
Mm. Mm-hmm.
Keith (08:17.517)
it's so massive, the change that's happening. you know, it is crazy because it's a lot, it feels like an avalanche. But again, it's finding the balance to, to figure out how to like amplify, I think your own true nature. And if we've been fed what this system wants us to be, rather than who we really are, then there's no center, there's no, there's no locus of
individuality and I think that's what's tripping a lot of people up.
Cameron Craig (08:47.428)
Hmm. Hmm. Yeah, I mean...
To bring it in another level, the funny thing that I've been seeing and sticking with one topic, which is the AI topic, but I want to come back to the war topic in a minute, because I have questions. the AI side of things, this year, at least in my space, has been.
Keith (09:07.349)
Okay.
Cameron Craig (09:19.148)
not just a reckoning in some way of like, here's what we can do and here's what we can't do. It's also been a little bit of like, here's what we should do. And here's what maybe we shouldn't do. And that's been a journey. It's been a really hard journey. It's been a hard journey to be on personally, it's been a really hard journey to lead through.
it's actually been a really hard journey to invent within with with and for AI, right? Because like, as we've talked about a lot of my invention has been in that space of with and for but like to the point that you're you're talking about with all of these shifts and this being the start of of a whole new millennia really there's so much that
Even though so much has happened and again, like we've talked about it, know, certain things are gonna feel like, you know, like everything feels like you're rapidly trying to take in and know what to do with the knowledge that you're gaining on this rapid pace. And I think what finally hit for me and also ended up being something to kind of...
rely on in terms of not freaking out, because it's a lot to take in on any given day, is just how much at the beginning we are. Like this is not, you know, we're not midway through like, God, if you missed out on the last year, like, forget it, like you've lost the race. It's like not that at all. It's just trying to take it in and understand.
Keith (10:39.437)
Yeah. 100%.
Cameron Craig (11:04.034)
all of the things that it could be. And that, I think has been...
Comforting maybe is stretch, but at least it's a way of processing it and understanding it and not being freaked out.
Keith (11:18.537)
Yeah, when you started talking about the AI stuff, was wondering if you're talking about
the change you're trying to make, you're still running into the same issues as the past because you're still dealing with monolithic corporate cultures that people don't want to change. know, they're like, Nope, we're from this group. We've always done it this way. We're never going to change whatever. then, you know, started, dawned on me, you're talking about like the rate of change is so fast that it's like, you get dizzy for a second. And then you're like, this is, really early. just, it's like, the plane is just taking off.
And it's like, you're accelerating from like zero to 180, 200 miles an hour. That's where we're at. We're not even off the ground really yet. we're, we're, we're about that. That's actually a really good analogy that you brought in. Cause now that's what the summer is spring and summer from February on is going to be, is going to be the actual leaving the pavement and going because. Modality modality wise, like element, earth, water, or air fire. We've been in water and earth, which has been like mud.
Cameron Craig (11:53.499)
Mm-hmm.
Cameron Craig (12:21.734)
Hmm.
Keith (12:21.847)
And we're going to Aaron fire, which is like, you know, like the mud coming out of the engine and just like, just goes and then, then it just kind of has this dry cough and that's what we're moving to. So yeah, dude, same. Cause I'm like, what I think people, the livelihood that they've been used to it's what do you do next just to survive? And when you have a lot of people kind of going into that transition space of like, how do you survive and make it through? It's, it's tough.
Cameron Craig (12:32.197)
Yeah.
Cameron Craig (12:51.354)
Yeah, and I mean, there's a lot of theories about that, again, and, you know, maybe to bring in the idea of war and obviously in this country, like, I think a lot of people don't really understand that.
we, you know, if you compare us to other political and economic regimes, if you will, right? Like, hey, you know, the People's Liberation Army is the world's largest employer. You know, and that's a very clear mandate, right? In China, that's a very clear mandate as to what all those people are doing. We in this country don't have that, right? Like,
Keith (13:24.833)
Yeah.
Cameron Craig (13:38.693)
the world's largest employer or the second largest employer is not the United States Armed Forces. It potentially is the US government, right? Like in its totality. What I think a lot of people miss out on and again, where I sit geographically in the world is like Silicon Valley was not.
some sort of a chip farm, right? Like it was not like, hey, clear those orchards, we're putting up a fab. Like that was the result of when commercially it took off. But the what a lot of people don't really realize is Silicon Valley like took off because a few things were here. One, Lockheed Martin, two, Ford Aerospace. And we're not talking about putting putting humans on the on the moon, we're talking, you know,
missile development and guidance systems and, you know, hardened electronics that could survive a trip into and back from space. And those things, I think people don't really realize like this economic center that everybody's like, and yay, leave this and, you know, Google and Apple and everything. All of that was built on the early foundations of like our military industrial complex. And
Keith (15:00.64)
Yeah.
Cameron Craig (15:02.02)
You know, when those things come, which honestly, I have to say like in the United States, it's one of the things we're probably really good at is hiding that. we just, it's in plain sight, but yet it's not in plain sight. And like,
Keith (15:17.396)
It's remanufactured as consumerism and convenience, and that's how it's sold back to you. like, look at this amazing thing you can do now. PhilCrow!
Cameron Craig (15:24.664)
Well, yeah, because I mean, the world's third largest employer is Amazon. Yeah. Yeah.
Keith (15:32.136)
Is it okay I was wondering because I thought dod was what yeah, I wouldn't be super amazon is just massive so it's like
Cameron Craig (15:37.288)
I mean, it's the third largest employer on the planet, right? Like it's kinda, it's a little frightening. So, you know, these things, like you said, we're good about going to war when we need to change things as a species, right? Like throughout our history. Mm-hmm, yep.
Keith (15:56.813)
Well, it's like an economic reset too. mean, pump more money. mean, so what I'm wondering though too is because everything is so digitized and it's cheaper to make copies of like bits than it is to make copies of bullets and bombs. Then I wonder if there's going to be like a Netflix version of the war that people are sold to keep people in control and make them think we're going through it.
Cameron Craig (16:24.4)
yeah.
Keith (16:24.621)
But so it's like, they're getting, it's like, that's the new matrix, but then it's not really going to happen. Like, well, they'll show videos of us blowing up some bullshit aircraft carrier in China that was like a casino at some point. And then they'll show some video of them using some weird laser canning weapon from space and whatever. It's just like, then, you know, but no, it's like, there's no truth anymore. even like this cover was the test pilot where there was CGing fireworks over a bridge, I think in Australia or somewhere. I have to find where it was, but.
this girl went outside and took a video. She's like, it's not happening. She like showed on the internet and showed what was really happening. It was like, it didn't matter because no one was there to verify it. So it's like, we're
Cameron Craig (17:01.575)
Well, I this is like back to the back back to our own administration. There's riots in Portland. People are, you know, throwing bottles at the police. And, you know, like we said, like three episodes ago, my boss was down the block and it was like, dude, are you all right? He's like, what do you mean? It's like like Portland, like they're burning Portland down. He's like, dude, I'm in downtown Portland. I'm like a block away from supposedly the epicenter of all this rioting. And he's like, there's nobody here. Like, it's completely quiet.
Keith (17:08.779)
dude, yeah.
Keith (17:27.117)
He's at the food truck with the news people hanging out like, hey, what's up?
Cameron Craig (17:33.608)
Yeah, he's getting a donut. He's getting a donut having some coffee like down the block, you know, he's feeding the homeless. He's doing all the things, you know, he's being he's like humanitarian effort during the war, you know. Yeah, so.
Keith (17:43.712)
my god. I don't know, I mean...
It's like I'm sure this is a division of the CIA where they're just like the directors of Idiocracy 2 but making it like an ARG like an alternate reality game that people think is real but really isn't and it's just like scripted I mean dude I go on the train so many grown-ass adults are just like playing these like little Not like minesweeper, but just kind of like it's like a Tetris II tech-tacto kind of I don't know where the hell is because I don't play games my phone but
I bet they're like mining crypto in the backend and they're solving the equation like the human in the loop part to kind of like, you know, the other proof of work for the blockchain or something. And I'm like, dude, it's everybody in, I don't know.
Cameron Craig (18:25.689)
Yeah, yeah, they're everybody's like, everybody's a small player in severance, basically, you know, you're solving the big, the big numbers game or whatever. So
Keith (18:33.696)
Dude.
Keith (18:38.06)
I think you're to have a handful of really large corporations that just become nation states. They're so powerful they can't really be messed with unless you're messing with them through regulatory capture. And the rest of these companies I think are just going to have to downsize because the economics don't make sense anymore. Dude, just like a cheap bronze plan for health insurance in New York is like $1,300 now a month. It's like rent.
Cameron Craig (19:05.785)
Yeah. Yeah.
Keith (19:07.998)
survive if you don't make money. I mean, not even just make money, but like, the inflation is just crazy, as much as it's accumulated after COVID. So
Cameron Craig (19:18.481)
Sorry, since we were bouncing in and out of science fiction and what the media is selling us. So I was referencing Severance, the Apple show, and what you were just talking about on the train, which I was referring to as well, the macro data refinement department.
Keith (19:27.226)
yeah.
Keith (19:30.783)
Heh.
Keith (19:35.1)
macro data refinement department? Is that from Severance?
Cameron Craig (19:37.295)
Yeah. Yeah. And Christopher Walken, works in the optics and design department.
Keith (19:46.08)
Dude, this is awesome.
Cameron Craig (19:47.847)
And then there's the mammalians, nert-nert-er-able.
which is goat care. I'm not that far into the series. I'm like five episodes in, so I haven't gotten to that. There's the disposal and reclamation department.
Keith (20:08.694)
God.
Cameron Craig (20:09.697)
And last but not least, the secretive security office.
Keith (20:16.684)
That should have been like public safety or something. Or like campus safety. Something like even more like monolithic and innocuous.
Cameron Craig (20:20.645)
Yeah. Yeah.
Cameron Craig (20:26.191)
Well, you know, the funny thing is I was in Seattle this week and, you know, the company is called Lumen with an O that they all work at on Severance. And on my way in, on my way in from SeaTac, I always pass the Lumen, L-U-M-E-N arena, which is in Seattle. It's just so funny.
Keith (20:37.354)
Okay. Ooh.
Keith (20:51.052)
That's interesting.
I wonder if Severance is kind of modeled after like Seattle tech corporate culture in a way.
Cameron Craig (21:00.487)
I don't know. They film it, the exterior and interior is filmed at Bell Labs in New Jersey. Yeah, so. Yeah, which the architecture is like so spot on for that. It's like that mid century, know, very fine design, you know, feels like everything feels like, you know, Herman Miller, like.
Keith (21:09.907)
cool. That's really interesting.
Cameron Craig (21:27.599)
articulated view of the work world in a perfect sort of utopia. You know, it's cold. It's cold, but inviting. Right? Like, yeah, it's clinical, but human scaled. You know, it's like those kinds of things where you're just like, yeah, which is it makes me laugh every time. Like, I can't, I can't actually deny how much I
Keith (21:27.83)
Yeah.
Monolith Chic.
Keith (21:37.356)
Clinical.
Keith (21:43.734)
That's freaking hilarious.
Keith (21:50.923)
Yeah.
Cameron Craig (21:53.156)
love Herman Miller. mean, I'm sitting in a Herman Miller chair. I'm sitting next to a Herman Miller couch. You know, yeah, yeah, you know, you got to have your requisite, you know, investment pieces of Herman Herman Miller furniture. But yeah, it's, it's funny that, you know, they've given all these departments these very nondescript
Keith (21:58.829)
What kind of designer would you be if you didn't have one of those?
Keith (22:06.55)
DWR, yeah.
Cameron Craig (22:20.663)
names that end up being these incredibly insidious activities that they're doing, but nobody who's actually working there knows that. So, yeah.
Keith (22:30.496)
I mean, I feel like I always like always the first place my brain goes to when I hear any of these things. I think most people don't do that. And I wonder if that's kind of like a, a neuro difference or like just a systems thing kind of bring prime for it where I'm like, that sounds sketchy. It sounds like that's sketchy, but like, that's odd, you know, but I don't know.
Cameron Craig (22:54.375)
Yeah, I mean, and you're right. I mean, to kind of go back out of the science fiction and more into human behavior, you're right. Even my wife, who doesn't really love games or electronics or screen distractions, she has a very different type of job than you and I have, very human-oriented.
But she runs a business, so she sits in front of a screen. She manages employees and again, sits in front of a screen. But I'm noticing in her this, every time I look down at her phone, she's playing solitaire. And I'm like, what is happening right now? What is going on that is driving you to mindless screen flipping? And for somebody that is so anti-
Keith (23:24.928)
Yeah, I'm in.
Keith (23:43.776)
Yeah.
Cameron Craig (23:47.229)
you know, God, like, could you not do anything else other than be in front of a screen right now? Or like, you know, do you need to have the phone like in your face? All of sudden, it's just like, what's happening right now? Like, where have you gone? Like, what's going on? You know, she's like, it's too much. Like her answer when I, you know, gently like I wasn't like, what the hell? Like the the tables have turned, you know, it was not that it was like gently just like, hey, I've noticed you've kind of, it's a lot of
Keith (24:13.386)
Yeah
Cameron Craig (24:14.92)
There's a lot of salt air play happening and you know, you're using the phone a lot and you seem to be really engaged in the phone. And, know, I like, I'm, I'm the last person to judge, but like, what, like talk to me about what's happening with you right now. You know, are you all right? And, know, it all just kind of comes out like, my God, like everything around is a train wreck. can't look at it and that, you know, I can't be, I can't read the news. can't even check.
Random social media for things that I think funny I just like I just want to flip these cards over and figure out what the next thing is and line them up I'm like and Okay, you know like do that whatever and I'm kind of observing like oh my god, like she's been gone for like 45 minutes So, I don't know it's weird
Keith (24:57.748)
Wow. Well, dude, it's like, it was SQL injection and then it was like prompt injection and it's basically narrative injection into everything because as these media companies couldn't make money, it's just, they got consolidated, they got bought whether by private equity or BlackRock or somebody. And then they just get coordinated in the background. And it's, you know, it's the, I don't know, the narrative manufacturing division or something that's behind it. And yeah, dude, it's.
Cameron Craig (25:24.785)
Yeah.
Keith (25:28.074)
It's hard because you can't there's so much going on that unless you like intentionally turn it off and it's hard to like to get out of that because it's like you can't even exist without a bank account right now or even like a cell phone. But it's crazy. It's actually interesting because you're seeing this on a lot of levels with with Alex with the phone. It's like there's a lot you know. So I don't know man. It's
I don't know what to say. It's sometimes you just need to turn. Sometimes you just need like sometimes I'll play eight big games. I'll play Mario Kart for like 20 minutes and then turn it off just so I can like, I'm like, I feel like I'm driving. feel like I'm drifting. I'm like, okay, great. But it's, you know, I guess it's same thing in a way.
Cameron Craig (25:56.775)
I mean, yeah.
Cameron Craig (26:06.696)
Yeah, yeah, I mean, yeah, yeah, I'm sure you're right. I'm sure you're right. It's just it's a fascinating, like a bit of weird escapism, right? And I find me my escapism is going into like the full analog, right? Like, and, and this isn't new for me. This isn't like, god, you know, like 25, like, my god, bought so much vinyl, like,
Keith (26:29.452)
Mm.
Cameron Craig (26:34.982)
Like leave the phone out of the living room and go sit on the couch and, you know, drop a needle or whatever. but I'm seeing that, that urge in me ramp up, you know, great example. And like we've talked about, like, I love cars. I love, I love the building, the driving, the, all of it. And, you know, I'm about to swap out, like sell one of my oldest
Keith (26:57.578)
Yeah.
Cameron Craig (27:04.86)
cars, one of the cars I've worked on the longest and done the most. you know, everybody's like, what are doing? What are you doing? It's like, well, I mean, get something a little bit more modern, but it's going to be as analog or almost as analog. And, you know, I having a conversation with a friend yesterday who has similar things, does similar things. And, you know,
I, not to be judgy or anything, but like bought a cyber truck and I was just like, I don't get it. Like, I just don't get it. You know, it's like, Oh, like the commute and I, I just push a button and show up at the office. I'm like, well, what are you going to do with all that spare time? You know, like, okay, great. So you're not going to drive yourself to work. Um, and
Keith (27:49.994)
How long's this commute?
Cameron Craig (27:51.877)
I don't know. mean, it kind of depends. Like I think he, he shows up to multiple places, one place, not too far, but you know, here it's like their traffic is shit. Like my commute six miles and sometimes it can take 45 minutes.
Keith (28:03.84)
Yes, that's an hour and a half every day by five days. That's like a part time job of time you're getting back basically.
Cameron Craig (28:10.272)
Which is, you know, that was his selling point, but I was like, well, what are you going to do at that time? Like you're sitting there like, what are you going to be? Yeah. Are you, are you, are you going to be playing solitaire or are you starting a new business or like what's happening? Right. Like, you know, you didn't really have a great answer to that. It was just like, okay, so your thing is you want to tune out from the humanity for awhile, which I get like, again, no judgment. Like I,
Keith (28:16.862)
playing video games on his freaking phone.
Cameron Craig (28:34.694)
I'm a horrible human being during commute. just like, hate everybody and everybody sucks. They're all terrible. And yeah, yeah, you're screaming at the steering wheel. You're just like, I hate you. Yeah. so it's not that I don't get that, but I don't get it, I guess. Right? Like there's so much.
Keith (28:38.988)
Tunger Games
Keith (28:54.23)
Maybe he's justifying it because he really wants it because it's cool or because it's like early adopter kind of thing. And the convenience of like, push a button, I go to this. mean, it's like, yeah, I'm.
Cameron Craig (29:04.2)
I mean, there's that. There's that. Like, and he worked in autonomous driving systems for like 10 years. So, you know.
Keith (29:09.553)
yeah. So you get to like finally, it's like getting an Apple watch after watching inspector gadget as a kid.
Cameron Craig (29:16.038)
Yeah. Yeah. So I think there's a little of that, you know, but, you know, and he's like, well, what are you going to do now that you're getting rid of the car? I like, well, you know, I'm, getting this other thing and no power steering and you know, like minimalism, there's no infotainment. There's no, you know, no, I mean, I don't know that I could go more analog than like a car from the sixties, but you know, I,
Keith (29:34.028)
Are you going more analog?
Keith (29:40.492)
Well, so what do you not like to drive? Why do you? there a reason you're getting rid of the car? Are you just like, it's a good investment. I can make money and get something different.
Cameron Craig (29:48.393)
It's I've had the car for 16 years and I've done like I've built the car from the ground up It was basically it was a complete car when I bought it and I made it a shell which is funny because like when you and I work together Thursdays I'd be home and you and I would be on the phone and You know every now and then I go out in the garage and be like keep look at this like
Keith (30:07.944)
that's right.
Cameron Craig (30:11.9)
their seats sitting on the side of the car. And I would show you like my pile of parts basically, right? Like, and that garage was like tiny and filthy and just, you know, was like heaped up everywhere that I was like either like, hey, here's the pile of things I just removed and here's the pile of things going in. Anyway, long story short, that's the car and it's done. It's been done for about a year and a half. I've driven it. I've done the things and it's great. It does everything I designed it to do when I
Keith (30:16.254)
Eheheheh!
Cameron Craig (30:42.61)
thought I knew what I wanted in a car like that. oddly, I've owned a bunch of cars and sold a bunch of cars and done a bunch of things and worked on other things and built other things in the time that I've had this thing. But this has been the steady state through all this. And it turns out in the end, when you're done with something, it's a little bit like sometimes don't meet your heroes because this was like, this is the thing. And it's going to be rad. And it's going to be amazing.
You know, it's gone through, it's gone through a bunch of iterations and it's finally done. There's nothing else I want to do, but I'm also like, yeah, it's great, but it's not great enough for me to want to continue to own it.
Keith (31:25.996)
Think it's a really good analogy for Growth setting a goal achieving the goal and it's like you outgrew it. It's like, okay, cool. I did it I made it, you know If you have another car you yeah, and you know it you know know put your heart into it because you're not just gonna let you aren't just doing it to try and like build it and flip it you're like I want to make an awesome cool little car based on you know, your own preferences and
Cameron Craig (31:38.864)
I learned, yeah, I built.
Keith (31:53.281)
You've got the Herman Miller stuff there. So obviously you're picking good car parts. You you're being, you know, intentional about what you're doing in building and dude, the person who's going to buy it, like, I'm sure they're really going to appreciate it. So, and at that point, it's almost like, there's a certain satisfaction to passing that on to a person who's really going to appreciate that too. Like when I sold a lot of gear before I came to this place right now, where I'm at now,
One dude bought a bunch of stuff and I gave him a bunch of other stuff for free because he, you know, he was building a studio, he was getting started. His friend came from like Italy, but he was from like Ghana. So he was smoking cigarettes on the roof while his friend went to get cash. was, you know, I was like, you know what? Fuck it. I'm like, this is like, this is a story this guy's going to have if he like, you know, takes care of this gear. And, you know, I don't know. I think again, it's like the human connection through all of these things. I think is what's really important. And yeah, you set new goals. It's like, you know, you.
Cameron Craig (32:44.423)
Yeah, for sure.
Keith (32:48.236)
a little bit older, you got a family, you know, got a different job right now. You know, we've learned beyond, you know, monolith 101 till I don't know, like monolith 303, I think at this point, all these classes. But, uh, yeah, you know, and then it's like, think a lot of people are going to keep scaling back to, just, I think it's again, like next year, it's like, okay, we can't take all this with us. Like, and that's part of why I'm redoing this studio now to where I'm like, the stuff is still good, but I just, some of it's going to be a backup. Some of it's just like, I just got to
Cameron Craig (32:59.41)
Yeah.
Keith (33:18.252)
to release it so I can make room for new stuff because it's you're stuck in that mindset of like 15 years ago still because like the way you started is still it's the foundation of what that thing is and it's a vehicle like it takes you from place to place if you think about the metaphor of like travel and distance and moving ahead like you don't want to be stuck in the old mode
Cameron Craig (33:37.246)
Yeah. Yeah. I think that's right. I think that's right. And that's probably a good mindset for 26 is you got to be open to the new. You got to be open to the what's next. And I think those are areas where I I'm trying to inject that hopefulness. And I think shedding the old, whether it's the old car, the old gear, or even some of your ways of thinking about the work is the thing that I am.
actively trying to put into my life, right? Like letting go of the old things that served well, because they have served well. And I think you can honor those things both, you know, in the way that you think and the way that you operate and the things that you own and the things that you do and the things that you've seen. But really like approaching things with like a fresh set of eyes and being curious, like is the other thing like that, that's something else I think.
you know, and I think when you and I met, like that was probably even like the sign off line of my emails, like, you know, stay curious, which I I'm gonna own I nabbed from NPR. You know, it, yeah, it really is. And, and I feel like maybe over the last
Keith (34:48.917)
That's a good, it's a good byline or good line
Cameron Craig (34:58.729)
the last 10 years, you know, since you and I have been working together, like, I had a high point of curiosity and I had a high point of, you know, the work driving the next thing. And I don't mean that from like, I'm gonna get promoted. Cause like, dude, like, no, in like, oftentimes you, yes.
Keith (35:13.094)
No, it was never about that. I pushed you about that. My Cameron, you need some stripe anyway, don't hijack.
Cameron Craig (35:21.947)
Yeah, no, but I mean, like, that's the thing that I think, you know, I've I've realized is it was a high point of curiosity. Like we were just doing the craziest things. And. And then, know, you and I, we like we separated, we like did the Defcom thing, we took a break.
You kind of did your thing for a while. went deep into like, you actually went really deep into being curious and learning and, and, picking up all these different skills that like augmented the skills that you had. And for me, I kind of went and was like, all right, I have some skills and I know, and I have a plan. And for me, it was like taking the things that you and I had developed and trying to.
Complete that cycle. Yeah. Scale and complete the cycle. But yeah, you're right. Like scale and, some of that really served me well. Like it was like, and I would call you, Keith, you can't believe it. Like I use this thing that we developed and like it worked like a charm and like, you know, now I've completed this part of the thing that, we could never quite get to. And, know, so there was some curiosity in there, right? Like it wasn't like curiosity just completely died, but it was a take the thing.
Keith (36:08.94)
scale. Yeah.
Cameron Craig (36:38.023)
and figure out how to complete the cycle and then like understand what the journey from end to end was. Cause I always felt like we left the journey, like we achieved a peak in the longer journey. So it's like, if you think about like hiking Himalayas, like we got to, you know, we finished the Annapurna, but we hadn't yet like tried to summit Everest. that's very much like what the last almost
Keith (37:00.086)
Yeah.
Keith (37:06.252)
Ahem.
Cameron Craig (37:06.665)
eight years has been about for me. It's like, all right, how do I, how do I take this and, and try and use the skills that I've learned, you know, hiking and a pernade to figure out like, how do get to base camp? And then ultimately, how do I, you know, summit and, uh, I dunno, it's, it's been, it's been great because I feel like
you know, we wouldn't be doing this podcast if there wasn't mutual learning that we've both had over the last eight years. But now it feels a little bit like it's time to figure out like what, what comes next, like where to, where to apply that curiosity in a totally different way.
Keith (37:50.752)
Dude, 100%. There was this super loud fire engine going by, so had Mio on mute. I was like, this is bot, can you hear this? But no, dude, 100.
Cameron Craig (37:54.344)
I know I was trying to talk and keep talking like because I kept seeing you like hit the mute.
Cameron Craig (38:01.253)
Yeah, I was trying to stretch it out. Like you could have done one of these on screen. Like, you know, just keep talking.
Keith (38:04.779)
Yeah. Yeah. Catch it in post kind of thing. Yeah.
Cameron Craig (38:10.589)
Yeah.
Keith (38:16.775)
It's been I like the way you framed how this is the last eight years has almost been like summoning the mountain and it's felt like that because that was Saturn, Pluto and Capricorn to Capricorn is like the goat that climbs mountains. That was COVID that was like, my God, this is and now it's like everyone's gotten over the top and it's like, I think we're coming down. I think we've already summited and it's almost like you still can't believe
we've come down but now it's like okay it's like the car is done now what what's next like what are going to do moving forward but the the old time scales of like i'm going to go on vacation in february and go here and you know so-and-so is graduating and like that's just not the anchor anymore or for it is it doesn't feel like home it doesn't feel as comfortable tuesday doesn't feel like a tuesday anymore it feels like
Cameron Craig (39:05.843)
Yeah.
Keith (39:09.949)
Monday through three Thursdays from now all collapse into like an hour. You're like, it's just like time is it just feels warped. So yeah, the curiosity part is what I've been actively trying to go back to because I feel like it's easier to like hijack the kind of like anxiety part or just like, like some of these I'll be so just tired going to the gym like I don't want to talk to anybody. I'm just like it
I've talked to like 10 different clients today, trying to explain tech stuff and English isn't their first language and you know, it's fine. It's not about that. just like, it's, it's a lot of cognitive load to be patient and explain like IT to people who don't have the vocabulary and they don't like, they're not tech people at all. So it's like, you know, you just need, it's like, it's, it's the solitaire that's, that's my lifting weights. I'm like, I don't want to talk. I just want to like pick up heavy shit and Grog put down rock, but uh, yeah.
Cameron Craig (39:43.335)
Mm-hmm.
Cameron Craig (39:55.241)
Yeah. Yeah. That's like me with the driving. And it's funny because like our problem space is the exact reverse. I'm trying to talk human to a bunch of technology people.
Keith (40:07.883)
also difficult because they're like, I know technology, you're stupid. I'm building it. You're an idiot. I'm like, I'm like, dude.
Cameron Craig (40:09.735)
my god.
Cameron Craig (40:13.746)
Yeah. And you're like, nobody cares and nobody wants this. So like, let's build something else. And they're like, Nope, we're this. I'm like, yeah. And that's great. Like, but you're the guy driving our stock price down with the yet another like dud product. Thanks.
Keith (40:26.219)
or that and it's like, yeah, do you think AI is not coming for everybody? It's not just designers. Like who's next buddy? Like we're all in this together whether you like it or not.
Cameron Craig (40:33.489)
Cameron Craig (40:37.874)
Keith, dude, like, what one story from this week, which is just like, I don't want to lose it. Because I know by the time you and I swing back around after the holidays, I'll forget this. So you like George, who you know, like we worked with George Macy's, George went with me to Safeway and you he's with me now. And he's building a demo of
Keith (40:50.622)
Okay, don't do it.
Cameron Craig (41:06.14)
the AI driven design tooling that we're building. And he's like, dude, like, I don't want to walk into a meeting and we have a meeting on Monday. He's like, I do not want to walk into a meeting on Monday. This is Thursday. I don't want to walk into a meeting on Monday showing a Figma prototype. I don't. And he's like, and I'm pissed that like, there's no developers around to build this thing. And I was like,
Okay, I got you. And he's like, it's designed, all of the interactions are right, like you and I and the product owner have been over, like we share responsibility over this product between, there's four of us basically. And he's like, I just think we're gonna look stupid talking about tooling, AI tooling, and we're coming in with the old ways of doing things. I'm like, yeah, you've sold me, like what are you gonna do? And he's like,
I'm going to try and use our tooling to generate the designs. I'm like, yep, that that can be done. And I love it. I'm like, but that doesn't get you out of working demo at this point. Like you're going to have a prototype kind of and it's not going to be in a design system that looks like what we're trying to build kind of. So like, what are you going to do from there? And he's like, he's like, I'm going over to build
build.io and I'm gonna build it there. And so he's at that for like an hour and he comes back, he's like, it will not work. It was like, okay. And so I said, I got an idea. Why don't you do the thing that we're doing? Take.
take the design out of the design tooling and put the design tooling into the like automated IDE, which is, know, it's a development environment, right? It's like where developers go to actually develop software. And supposedly it's supposed to reduce the actual amount of coding that you as a developer would need to do by some great percentage. don't, I'm not going to quote what the percentage is because I don't really know. And I'm not going to make promises on behalf of my company.
Keith (42:56.778)
Yeah.
Keith (43:10.345)
Right.
Cameron Craig (43:16.018)
So I like go use this tool and he's like laughing. He's just like, you think that's going to work? I'm like, I'm pretty sure it's going to work because I've seen this part of the life cycle. I've seen, I've seen a developer take designs out of our design tooling and run it through this like AI based IDE. He comes back an hour later. He's like, holy shit. And I was like, what's going on? He's like, I have.
all of the interactions working and it generated, he's like, you were right. It like took the things out of our tool and I'm like, hey, this is not the right design system. Can you genericize this? And like ripped away like all of the like specific design system and kind of made like a mock really scaled down, very generic black and white design system. And he comes back and he's like, in an hour, I'm going to have an actual like walkthrough demo for you. And like all of the functionality that we need to show in this meeting,
Keith (44:01.259)
Okay, that's perfect though, because then you're not...
Cameron Craig (44:10.664)
He like sent me a video of him walking through and like, here I'm doing this and now I'm doing this. And he's like, and here's the code. And like, it shows like all of the like front end code, the like connective code. And the only thing that he would need to do to actually make it a working product at this point is plumb in the backend, like architecture, like the database goes here and the, you know, user IDs go here. And so I was just like,
Keith (44:31.315)
Yeah. Pushes of pride.
Cameron Craig (44:37.48)
I think we've proven the point that this is, this is how you've actually proven multiple points. You've proven the point that our life cycle works and you've proven the point that anybody can now be a developer. Like you actually, like you were so pissed about the fact that you couldn't find a developer, you use the tooling to make, make development happen. And we're to go into a meeting with our Supreme overlord who's a developer and basically be like, so we built this entire thing Friday using tooling.
no humans were involved in the coding of this nonsense, which I think is gonna be one of those weird like, it's like the Escher hands, know, drawn themselves, or it's the inception moment where, you know, the guy on the other side of the table is gonna be like, fuck, these guys have gotten into my mind and like, they've actually like destroyed me from within, like all the things that I thought were gonna like destroy them, they've actually now used it or destroying me.
Keith (45:37.272)
It was only a matter of time that it just got so efficient. I mean, if think about it, if they did it right, then you're turning all of the best Amazon programming, like intuition into like a programmatic system. But that's kind of like, this is why the suspend your ego part is so hard because you, if you do your job right, like you're out of a job.
Cameron Craig (46:00.316)
Yup.
Keith (46:04.725)
with changing a company because you're not the goal is not to be there for a long time is to have like a good time and to get it done and to move everybody ahead and then go on to the next thing. Not to like be in one place for 30 years and that that's the lack of curiosity more security kind of mindset but it's also what holds you back at the same point too. And I think that moment that the overlords are going to have is going to become like
Cameron Craig (46:23.252)
Yep. Yeah. Yeah.
Keith (46:33.819)
global moment because now it's it doesn't matter where you are because it went from like outsourcing labor to not anybody can do it anywhere to the machines are going to do it anywhere anywhere and it's like what are going to do with a human what are you going to do as a human and how do you reset the system
Cameron Craig (46:53.492)
But this is the thing too, like back to maybe in some ways hopefulness for 26, but also to wrap up some of the things that we've been talking about on this podcast. And it's happening in a more rapid pace than even I was expecting. This moment, like what happened between Thursday and essentially yesterday morning is.
It's the first carrier wave of what we've been talking about. Like those that are about to seize power in some way in these corporate environments, and it's a very specific corporate environment, so like I also want to make sure that I caveat that, right? Like I work in a development environment. I work in an environment where we build software and hardware, and the power dynamic is about to shift.
It's the thing that we've been saying. It's like those that have the good ideas and can figure out how to work outside of the norms and solve problems. Like it isn't about coding something. It isn't about designing something. It is, there is a customer problem that exists and I'm going to go and solve it, which is essentially like between George and I, what we did. It's like,
You are my customer because you work for me and I'm your customer in some ways, because we have a presentation to give. like between the two of us, he's like solved a bunch of things using our own tooling. And then I was like, here's an idea, go try this and it will get you the rest of the way there. And then the technology ended up being ultimately the solve for the problem because we got curious and what that life cycle ends up proving is.
those that can come up with the ideas become the ones that are the ones that push like from a leadership perspective, the company forward. It's not like a developer sat down and said, I know, you know, I'm going to build this tooling. I'm going to connect these two tools. I'm going to do these two things. It's like two different stacks happening, right?
Cameron Craig (48:58.513)
IDE with an AI backend, design tooling with an AI backend. And I'm like, bring those two things together, which, know, there's no magic there. It's not like I'm saying like I'm, the genius connecting the things, but what, what I, what he and I did in that moment was we have a need right now and we're seeing all this different tooling. It's like, bring the tooling together and like pass the things back and forth and see what you can make. And he comes back and he's like, yeah.
it worked and I made the thing. And now we walk, we walk into a meeting instead of showing static figma things that are easy to poke at, we're showing the actual thing coded, which actually is the carrier wave to go to the next thing, which is, and no technical people touched this. Like that's the thing that I think is going to be mind blowing. It's going to be like, it's like, like the payload of
Keith (49:30.674)
Mad Science.
Cameron Craig (49:57.034)
We're showing you design tooling for the masses that actually got coded by a designer and a machine.
Keith (50:06.762)
Who owns the programmer now? It's not, it's that, that's so it's like the, fundamental customer profile changes. So there is going to be a massive civil war about at least like a spiritual civil war internally, the culturally about what that means. And the other part I was thinking about as you were saying this, getting back to like the hacker part of the social engineering part of the influence piece, there's like a responsible disclosure. So if you find a bug, how do you tell someone that something's busted without them shooting you or suing you in the process?
Cameron Craig (50:12.746)
Yes.
Keith (50:36.884)
And this is a parallel where it's like, Hey, this thing may put half the company out of work, but we can't stop it. Like we have to like deal with it. And it's like the baby's ugly problem. How do you tell somebody that, you know, there's a huge issue without telling them there's a huge issue. And I think this is kind of like another piece on top of how you kind of connect all these things. Cause you started with this, you started with this unmet need. You wanted to build something you haven't been able to build before with any capability that technology enabled that didn't require a technical person or developer.
You synthesize things that were unlike and shouldn't have worked well together what they did because you found a new way to kind of combine them. That's like design thinking. And the result is a complete paradigm shift in this massive economic engine. And it's like, how do you not get shot in the process where you're like, look at this cool thing I did.
Cameron Craig (51:24.403)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Keith (51:26.73)
Because they're going to see it they're going to be like, you just found the Christmas presents in the closet and it's two weeks before Christmas.
Cameron Craig (51:31.369)
Yep, mean, and I know that. Like I've already been punished in my own way for that with, you know, hey, thanks for the amazing design tooling. Now cut your org by like 20%, right? Like I've already had that pain. And you know, I don't suspect that that's going away. I suspect that that pain is.
Keith (51:46.942)
Yeah.
Keith (51:54.409)
It's going to be global. It's going to be every company. It's not it's everywhere.
Cameron Craig (51:57.118)
It is. And to your point, it's going to be every practice area. And finally, like in this instance, what I'm showing is...
I'm completing the life cycle and the life cycle that I'm completing is the actual, like where the armies are, right? And I feel like I'm doing two things. We'll see what happens, you know, come tomorrow afternoon. What I think I'm proving is that systems thinking and design thinking should not be under invested in because...
Keith (52:18.506)
where the battle will be.
Cameron Craig (52:33.599)
There are far fewer of us doing what we do and we're a far less expensive resource to have around. But what George proved is he didn't need to go to the guy who has the same role and level as him who gets paid twice as much to do, you know, however many hours that would have taken, right?
Keith (52:49.994)
Shrink some stuff together. We're gonna do it in an hour, but we're like, oh, it's gonna take 10 hours and then three business days, we gotta do this. We're gonna drag it out. It's just like anything else.
Cameron Craig (52:58.995)
Yeah. So like, you know, and this is not me getting evil on another practice area, but the economics and the business acumen doesn't lie, right? There are far more developers sitting around in our ranks getting paid far more than the average designer, the average program person, the average product person, the average analyst. Like,
Any business is not going to all of sudden be like, yeah, we need to preserve that. Like that, that paradigm is going to shift as well. And it needs to.
Keith (53:36.488)
Yeah, wages are gonna collapse, roles are gonna start morphing into other roles. I mean, that's the thing, it's...
Keith (53:49.739)
If you have If you're in school learn as much as you can like you're in school So you have time like leverage it if you're in a job, you're still employed Find out how to learn on the side and start building stuff on the side because there's nothing There's nothing I'm sorry. I'm like starting to get sick. I'm like Nothing's gonna be the same even with like immigration and what's going on internally it's like
Cameron Craig (54:03.219)
Yeah.
Keith (54:19.63)
There's a lot, it's about adaptability and like you said, being curious and finding ways to kind of connect these pieces together. And you know, if the big, bigger structures crumble because they don't want to change, you're going to find a lot of people who are hungry for change who are going to look to that. And that's going to be your next audience or your next like co-conspirators in curiosity.
Cameron Craig (54:43.455)
Yep, yep, yeah. So it's fascinating, right? I don't, back to kind of the thematics, this journey has been a struggle this year. You know, and as you were saying too, like you have similar struggles, like hey, this is what you need to do, this is what I can bring to the table. Like, it's like, yeah, cool.
Keith (54:58.408)
I'm sure, yeah.
Cameron Craig (55:11.019)
But I totally don't get that. And I'm only willing to go this far. you I mean, you know, you're pushing the same human boulder up, up the hill, you know? So it's, it's fascinating. One thing too, that you said earlier, which I think has been another, you know, mantra for the latter half of this year is that like lightning of things, right? Like if you're trying to climb up a mountain,
Keith (55:13.384)
Yeah.
Keith (55:21.098)
The Sisyphus, yeah.
Cameron Craig (55:38.987)
You want to be as lightweight as you can be. You want only the stuff that you need, only the stuff that you can carry, only the stuff that solves the problems that you can anticipate that you're going to need and everything else. You kind of just have to let go. Like there's no reason to hang on to it. There's no reason to own it. There's no reason to continue to carry it. you know, and that, I think we've all kind of gotten
You know, back to like the last eight years, like I too have gotten away from that part of what we had kind of designed in this thinking is, you know, and it's not that I have my hands firmly grasped around all the things, but there are moments where certain things like, well, that's kind of core to like what I actually do. And I don't want to toss that.
In the end, it's like, nope, you still have to, as painful as it is in the moment to toss it, you have to toss it because it is actually holding you back, you know?
Keith (56:45.289)
The comfort zone is what's killing you in a way because it's keeping you complacent Yeah, dude it I mean
Cameron Craig (56:47.85)
Yep. Yep. Yeah.
Keith (56:54.731)
I've been going through the same mindset all weekend thinking about like what gear I keep, what do I toss? mean, if I'm going to stay in New York another year or not, I mean, this place is going to get crazy. I mean, with the new mayor, like I'm not about doom and gloom, but just looking at the cycles, like it's going to be like a fricking movie next year and things are going to start moving. And as soon as they start moving, they're not going to stop. Like we haven't had grip, the tires have been slipping, but now we're going from like muddy ground to like
Cameron Craig (57:20.14)
Mm.
Keith (57:22.761)
dry hot pavement where like the tires stick and you're just gonna like really accelerate quickly so yeah you know
Cameron Craig (57:28.629)
Yeah.
Keith (57:35.199)
It's about finding faith or having faith too. It's like, we're almost out. It's been, again, this is like, hasn't happened. This is like an epochal shift of like thousands of years. And I don't know. think if the universe is holographic and you get out kind of what you put in, like if you leave the house and you're in an angry mood and you start bumping into people left and right, because you're just like attracting that and magnetized to that. You know, I think that's the best, you know, whether it's an excuse or kind of like a mind hack to kind of
You you got to have faith and try and change the attitude a little bit and try and, you know, do the curious thing and like you said, get light and fast as much as possible.
Cameron Craig (58:14.346)
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and I think you all said it earlier. It's like, can't take it with you. So if you own something, make sure that it's doing, and I don't mean that like, material wise, like, I mean, obviously that fits into it as well, but if you own anything, it, needs to be, it needs to be bringing you joy, right? Like the tasks that you want to work the
Keith (58:23.295)
Yeah.
Cameron Craig (58:42.356)
vintage car you own, the gear you own, all the things that you quote own. You know, it better be bringing you joy or it better be serving a purpose because if it's not, lighten it, right? Like that's a mindset, I think a growth mindset that a lot of people struggle with. They like, my role is this and I own this. And you're like, yeah.
Keith (58:46.686)
Yeah.
Cameron Craig (59:03.798)
But you hate it and you're miserable every day. Like, don't try and own the things that make you miserable. Get rid of the things that make you miserable. Yes.
Keith (59:06.609)
Yeah.
Keith (59:12.818)
Release them. Yeah, that's you made a comment about like shutting the skin or something shutting the old Things that serve well, this is the end of the year of the snake and like Chinese astrology and the next year It's gonna be the year of the fire horse. So it's gonna like it's gonna heat up. It's gonna go So it's just like keep releasing it. I know it sucks. It's a few more months of the purge But yeah, like doing all these gear purchases. I'm like, okay, is this gonna help generate more revenue or is this a toy?
Cameron Craig (59:25.536)
Mm-hmm.
Mmm.
Keith (59:43.228)
Okay, it's a toy. I get to have one toy, not seven. That's all I can carry with me right now. You know what mean?
Cameron Craig (59:47.573)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, for sure. For sure. And I mean, I think those are the things that you know, it's like, in any of those things, you still got to do the things that make you happy, right? And sometimes people for a time, they're like, you know,
own like for me, you know, outside of the material, like owning a big department in an organization, the value valued, you know, it's shifting, but valued large departments, like cutting my department down in the moment and letting all that go and, letting
the humans leave my org and go to different orgs. It felt like failure in some way. was like, God, know, like 27 people just departed for a solutions organization. It sounds really exciting and cool. And like I'm doing the old stuff and that, you know. Yeah. And. You know, like when that happened, I was sad to see that team go because I really valued a lot of the people and I actually valued the leader who left with the team and went over there.
Keith (01:00:29.298)
Yeah.
Keith (01:00:35.966)
Body Shop for code.
Cameron Craig (01:00:51.067)
and
But it was interesting. was like a load was lifted at that moment where I'm like, oh, I don't have to worry about this entire side of my management team. I don't need to divide my attention between things that I'm core to and things that I'm tertiarily involved in, right? I don't need to do budget planning for 27 people.
Keith (01:01:19.986)
no more reviews
Cameron Craig (01:01:21.534)
Yeah. And you know, you're looking at your number kind of dwindle in terms of your org chart and all that. was like, but you know what my ability to spend quality time in the core of my org just went up by almost, you know, I mean, less than a quarter, but somewhere around there, right? Like if you think about the number of meetings and things that you're doing, it's like, wow, I get to focus on, on a completely different thing. and
Keith (01:01:41.768)
Yeah. Management maintenance.
Cameron Craig (01:01:49.419)
Honestly, it gave me the time to really dive deep into the invention part of it. And I also think it was like a kick in the ass. was kind of stupid to be honest. this idea that a solutions team was like forming in, know, the greater ranks around me. was like, well, wait a minute. I like, I provide solutions and like, why am I not being thought in that same way? And it was like, you know,
It was a kick in the ass as well. was like, all right, like, let's go prove that we can solve problems, right? Like we're not just here as like somebody's consulting firm to go solve their design problems. We're actually here to like make product and do things, and invent. that felt like that kind of a kick to go and make sure that the invention that we're doing is represented and out there. And yeah, so.
Keith (01:02:25.969)
Yeah.
Keith (01:02:38.94)
It's valued relative to the people that have power because it's still the old paradigm. Cause they think solution equals number go up when it's number go up visa V like JIRA tickets, actual cashflow and business sense and the customer like, dude, was thinking about this two days ago and I was like, man,
Cameron Craig (01:02:55.434)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Keith (01:03:04.938)
freaking OKRs and KPIs, they're necessary, but a lot of it's BS too, because it's like, just make numbers and you just manage it. It's like, what happened at Macy's? was just like, I think it was Drucker who said like, what you measure is what you manage, meaning you just get so focused on it that that's it. You don't see the forest from the trees anymore. And there's a really big intuitive piece that comes with the curiosity that I think...
is what helped us really well in the past, which was like, okay, we kind of have these like guideposts that we want to try and hit, but it was like, it wasn't like we had to do it at such a specific time in such a specific way. It was like, you know, it's more like driving a rally car where it's like, you can drift wide. You know, if it's raining, you got to go a little tighter. You got to slow down. You know, it's like you, you adapt to the terrain that's changing and you just find a way rather than being like, we're going to like make six widgets and then ship 20 tomorrow and then raise the price by 10%. And it's like that.
That planning part is like not, there's just too much volatility in the system. And that's, that's why I like the astrology not to be like, this is going to happen. But it's like, it's a weather report. It's like a cycle that's like, it's mathematical enough that it's like a broad heuristic that you can kind of take a cosmic carrier wave, I guess you can kind of resonate against, but I don't know. We'll see. Cause part of me wants to like, talk more about this.
I don't know if it's like LinkedIn or whatever too, but I know there's going to be a huge stigma. But part of me has like getting to let go and letting go thing is having to like go that fear to be like, you know what? Fuck it. Like if they hate it, who cares? But there's going to be a bunch of people who are like, dude, so there must be something to this like mindset stuff or to like, you know, being curious or whatever, like all these, all these pieces, like there's something there like you can't just because we can't test theoretical physics because we don't have
a $10 billion budget to build some kind of crazy particle accelerator in the backyard. It's like doesn't mean doesn't exist. It's just we haven't been able to test it based on the old rules of how we quantified like reality. But that's all changing. Especially when we start hacking into our brains and I don't know, it's, it's exciting. It's just I think the trick is not just being curious, but having the boldness to be who you really are to express your true nature and to put yourself out there to find and filter the right people.
Keith (01:05:20.17)
to find those next networks and groups that will help build the connection and the human element, the human in the loop in a positive way, not the human in the loop to prevent the AI from killing you, but to like, cause they're both important. It's like a, but that's, think where I'm kind of netting out at the end of this is like, all right, you know what, screw it. And that's why I'm like, okay, I'm to get an overhead camera. I'm going to get a better prompter. I got to get more hard drives, like, you know, getting the foundation set to put an investment into like this podcast and doing more of this stuff. And, know, just who knows.
See where this goes.
Cameron Craig (01:05:51.297)
Yeah. Well.
As you were talking, I was also thinking about a few things, but I think where my head immediately went was to ask a couple of questions. So I'm curious about the thing that you, since, you know, like our theme for this was like end of the year wrap up and like, you know, the year behind us, the year ahead.
Keith (01:06:04.639)
Yeah, lay it whatever you want to talk about laid out.
Cameron Craig (01:06:22.901)
What's the thing that you, I'm gonna lay out all three. It's like, what's the thing that you are most excited to leave behind? Like, hey, 25's done. What's the thing that you're sort of most helpful for that you're looking forward to at 26? You know, whether it's like the learning, the curiosity, or the seeing. And then the third question that I had is like, what's the thing that in all of this you would advise?
to be the focus, right? Like if somebody were sitting on the other end of this podcast, like, okay, you guys have talked about a bunch of things. Like maybe the supreme wrap up in this podcast or in my mind, and feel free to throw out your own questions, but like those three things, I'm curious to hear from you, like where your head's at.
Keith (01:07:12.553)
Okay, what I'm excited to leave behind, what I'm hopeful for, what would I advise to be the focus? Okay. The thing I'm most excited to leave behind is this fucking COVID mindset of like...
Cameron Craig (01:07:16.981)
Yes. Yeah.
Keith (01:07:28.395)
When we diverged, was almost, I was on a path to go work very likely in intelligence. And I didn't want to do that because it would have been like socially engineering the system to like, that's what happened. But I didn't want to do that because I thought there's a better path. Like that's breaking down right now. And there, uh, the old way I'm just, it's just like, it's been dragging on forever. Like this climb has been like incessant, like nonstop. It feels like it's been almost since like 2016, 2018, even almost like a decade long.
Cameron Craig (01:07:34.253)
Mm.
Keith (01:07:57.419)
super psyched to let that go because that's not coming back. What I'm most hopeful for is that the change that's coming, you know, I put a lot of discipline in place. Like I was working out five days a week, I dropped 16 pounds, I kept my strength up. We did this podcast, not weekly, but regularly enough that it was it was you know, we got outside the yeah, we got outside the three podcasts window where we're like in the top. I don't know a few percentile, which is awesome, you know.
Cameron Craig (01:08:00.01)
Mm-hmm.
Cameron Craig (01:08:18.923)
It was a thing. Yeah, it's a thing.
Keith (01:08:25.994)
Congratulations to us. Yay us. Exactly. And, you know, I'm doing a lot of experiments with like this media stuff with video. I'm building like an Oracle deck based on street art that I want to do like a show out of to like get real people like I do I want to speak Spanish to the delivery guys and be like, okay, what the hell is really going on? And like, what do you say? I want to talk to everybody. And then put that back out there. So it's like, I'm excited to run a lot of experiments. And then the advice for the focus.
Cameron Craig (01:08:27.041)
Yay.
Cameron Craig (01:08:44.842)
Mm-hmm.
Keith (01:08:59.364)
is to find what resonates with you and not be so afraid of what the collective or the environment around you is trying to like convince you to do because the more you stick with the old way the more you try and go with a conventional way you're just going to get more glued it's a quicksand you're just going to fall deeper into this thing that you can't get out of and fortune will favor the bold moving forward
Cameron Craig (01:09:13.079)
Mm-hmm.
Keith (01:09:28.478)
with Saturn conjuncting Neptune in Aries the very beginning February, like it's gonna be very clear. And no matter who you are, whether you're a billionaire or a presidential candidate or some dude on the street, like nothing is gonna be stable. it's like, there's a huge, everyone's starting over. Cause there's something called a draconic chart, which is when you put the node back to the beginning Aries, but basically like it's a way to reset.
That's what Saturn Neptune is hitting. So basically we're all getting a brand new reset right now. And this is the 6,400 year cycle reset. So you can be whatever you want. You can do whatever you want. Just the same way that you and George built this prototype and didn't need technical help. So it's having the courage to do that, letting go of the old way. Yeah. And if you don't know where to start, like start with what you don't like.
Cameron Craig (01:10:00.301)
Hmm.
Keith (01:10:23.114)
You know what you don't want is greater than equal to what you do want or what you know It's like if it's not working do the inverse and that will give you get you closer and start there and then don't be afraid to let things go just like you don't have to be like I hate it and you know get in a fight just like just Just release it just like okay, you know what? I'm just gonna like let go and then if it floats away cool if it hangs out cool, you know, but just it's learning that non-attachment. So That's what I would say What about you? What are you excited to be behind?
Cameron Craig (01:10:45.825)
Yep. Yeah. Awesome.
Keith (01:10:51.55)
What are you hopeful for and what would you advise to be a focus? This is a great question, by the way, or questions.
Cameron Craig (01:10:57.653)
Yeah, sorry, I wasn't expecting to be put back on the spot in the same way, but I'm game for it. So I think the thing that I'm most excited to leave behind...
Keith (01:11:01.876)
We're all in the hot seat.
Cameron Craig (01:11:12.595)
is a lot of not knowing. I think, you know, and again, not to say like, now we know. But this year has been a lot of transition politically. This year has been a lot of transition technologically. I think the social fabric that you're talking about, you know, switching and maybe in some ways disintegrating post COVID is there. And I too am
Excited to start further leaving behind that isolation and I'm seeing some thawing there with people. know, great example, I was walking the dogs and I stopped by the bagel shop in our neighborhood to get bagels on the way home and they'd taken down all of the like plexiglass that they had up that was just swinging from the ceiling tiles between you and the cash register, right?
Keith (01:11:44.839)
Yeah.
Keith (01:12:03.44)
It's like an invisible guillotine, silently waiting to murder you.
Cameron Craig (01:12:06.644)
Yeah. And I mean, you stick your hand through there to like use the cash machine and earn the, you know, to pay, to tap your card or whatever. And you know, you're, it's noisy in there. It's, it's noisy in there. You know, it's like there's students all over, you know, it's like not far from a university and there's always a line. So you're in there with like 20 other people. It's a time, it used to be a gas station. So imagine the office of the gas station is like where you get your bagels and,
Keith (01:12:15.914)
totally legit. Not a house set. Yeah.
Keith (01:12:32.242)
cool. It's hipster.
Cameron Craig (01:12:35.19)
Yeah, totally. it was a Volkswagen repair shop in the sixties. Yeah. Be rad. Yeah. Like you're upfront. You're like, yeah, give me the, give me the, give me the leaded. so, so, you know, like that thawing I think is, is important, right? And like to, to deal with somebody face to face and not have a barrier between you and them. And, and you know,
Keith (01:12:36.234)
It's like they give you coffee out of like the gas thing instead now. Your cold brew dispenser. Yeah. High test.
Cameron Craig (01:13:03.01)
Like I don't use cash, but the two people in front of me were using cash. And like the fact that it's no longer cash only, like the guy like reached over and took the cash from the other person's hand, you know, like we, that, that had gone away there. Right. so those things, you know, yeah, yeah, yeah, please.
Keith (01:13:12.233)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Can I say one thing real quick? We might have power outages and the grid might go down and select spots even whether it's... I'm not going get into why, but there's an astrological thing with Uranus or whatever. But if that does happen, it's going to be good because the phones are not going to work and we're going to be forced to have to talk to one another again. So it's going to actually bring us back closer to humanity. So if that does happen, don't freak out. It'll actually be a positive thing. You'll see. But anyway, I was thinking about that.
Cameron Craig (01:13:44.44)
When it's always important, like everywhere you go, you should usually have, you know, one of these like stuck in your, your, your belongings, right? Like don't, yes. Yes.
Keith (01:13:53.074)
carry 10s and fives in a few 20s. You want smaller bills so that because if you need to negotiate, oh, it's a good like a four you go to like Costa Rica to get one of those little like little rock frog little frog guys. Oh, don't have any change. Sorry, buddy. It's 20 bucks. Now. It's like, yeah, you got to bring small bills. So anyway, little pepper tip. Cash is still king.
Cameron Craig (01:13:58.883)
Yeah.
Cameron Craig (01:14:04.428)
Yeah.
Cameron Craig (01:14:08.428)
Yeah. A little sideline, know, travel tips plus, you know, in case of some sort of, yeah, some sort of EMP. So that's the thing I think I'm excited to see start to dissipate, right? Quick sideline, but related to that. I'm taking a quick trip to Europe in a few days.
And one very smart European who works for me said, you know, there's a big difference between America and specifically California and specifically Northern California and Europe. Like this place is all about ideas and innovation and Europe is all about human connection. And, you know, and he's struggling. Do I stay or do I go? And, you know, he left
Keith (01:15:02.484)
Sounds familiar.
Cameron Craig (01:15:03.5)
because he left Europe because he felt like the old way of doing things was the accepted way. And he came here because he wanted to think boldly and be curious and do crazy things. But now, you know, as he's thinking about the wind down of his career, the way that, you know, I think in some ways I'm thinking about the same thing.
He's wondering whether or not that human connection that Europe represents is the thing that he actually needs. so I'm interested to see that up close. felt it when I was there for business, you know, two months ago, and I'm going back and I'm going to a place that's familiar to me, to, to be an absorb that culture because I'm, I too, I'm thinking about whether or not I want to remain in Silicon Valley or, or depart. but.
Keith (01:15:52.797)
Yeah.
Cameron Craig (01:15:55.949)
So that thawing, I think, is the thing that I'm ready to leave behind. The thing that I am most interested in is part personal and part related to all the things that we're talking about, but wholly wrapped up in the same concept of I am ready to be curious again. And I'm ready to not be fearful of certain things because I feel like
And you know, I think this podcast has helped me specifically and me personally with this is I think you and I came back together because we are both like, I'm seeing some things. I'm seeing some things and I don't.
Keith (01:16:32.02)
Same.
Cameron Craig (01:16:43.008)
totally know what it means, but I'm seeing it. Like, are you like, I remember our first conversation. It's like, are you seeing this? It's like, yeah, yeah, I'm seeing that too. And there's a little bit of sanity that that represents, right? It's like, okay, I'm not crazy. Like he's seen it too. And I trust Keith and like Keith thinks in a similar way, but he also has an intellect that goes in different avenues than mine does. And if we're both seeing it, there's enough correlation there over a wider array of things that you and I like pattern recognize that
I'm not crazy and I think part of getting over that fear of god things are changing at a rate that I'm I'm I'm uncomfortable with and I have a pretty high like I have a high threshold for risk so you know and I think getting over that and being in a place where I'm like I get to be an observer again I get to look at things and discover and figure out what the
Keith (01:17:23.848)
What the hell's happening? Yeah.
Cameron Craig (01:17:40.911)
What the pen test is, what the hack is, what the, you know, engineer around is, what the red team through is. Um, I'm really excited about that. And I really feel like shedding a lot of that fear in 25 has set me up to hit the ground running in 26 where I'm like, there's some things I want to see and discover and figure out. And, and, you know, I can really be in that mindset to start to, you know, put the pen to pen to paper or.
line of code to IDE or whatever it is to start to really see where I can take certain things that I've been thinking about next. and in some ways like the sooner that can start the better, you know? so that's the thing I think I'm most excited about. And I think, yeah, the advice that I would give outside of the, the shedding. that's a sub point to this really is.
Keith (01:18:12.018)
Ahem.
Keith (01:18:28.637)
Advice.
Cameron Craig (01:18:38.922)
in some ways, the thing that I'm also looking forward to the most, which is being curious. Like I think that is my strongest set of advice. And in some ways, like everybody's got to go through their journey and get over their fear in their own way. And I, and I don't discount that. So that's not me saying like, don't fear anything. Don't worry about it. Just get curious. Right? Like that, that, that, that would be a, yeah, it does keep you alive and you can't ignore those very human tendencies to like do things to make sure you're safe.
Keith (01:18:57.587)
It keeps you alive.
Keith (01:19:08.062)
curiosity is the antidote to stagnation when if you can like shift your perspective to be like, okay, what information can I learn from this experience rather than did I make money? Did I go on a date? Whatever it is, know, rather than some metric KPI of success or whatever that's in your mind, that's totally arbitrary.
Cameron Craig (01:19:21.698)
Yeah.
Cameron Craig (01:19:26.572)
Yeah, that is a great way of putting it. So I mean, I guess if I had to stair step it, would say, you know, three things. Never give anybody more than three things. Figure out what's important. Figure out how to deal with the fear. And the third thing would be get to the state of observer and being curious, because that's where...
That's where your next job's going to come. That's where your next project's going to be. That's where the next thing that you find purpose is going to be. It's where, like you said earlier, it's like where you can put your faith, you know, whether that is a spiritual faith or a faith in yourself or a faith in the world around you. Curiosity leads to that faith in some way. And I think, you know, those three things, like identify the important
Keith (01:19:56.074)
Mmm.
Cameron Craig (01:20:21.707)
Shed the fear. Get curious.
Keith (01:20:25.855)
I think that's the title of this episode, Curiosity Leads to Faith.
Cameron Craig (01:20:29.795)
Yeah, could be, could be.
Keith (01:20:31.999)
I like it because I just real quick before we totally wrap this up. Well, I got to it's it's G's birthday. So I got to do a quick birthday zoom to say hi and like, because she's got another eight minutes. But yeah, so the the human connection and the innovation kind of thing that you kind of talked about of like, are you going to leave and find the thing you were seeking and then your colleague, friends, vice versa coming back here? I think both of us are going to the new role.
Cameron Craig (01:20:35.875)
Yeah, because I know you gotta get to B &H and deal with another religious population.
Keith (01:21:02.249)
by being curious and being open, putting this out there and being a little bit more like structured and just continuing to kind of keep evolving this and getting more consistent. I think we're going to be that for other people rather than I'm to go to an office and I'm to go a nine to five and I'm going to like talk about code and design. Dude, the way our minds work, I'm just like, give me whatever and I could figure out how to reverse engineer a thing. Same with you where it's like, fuck it. It's like, dude, no, like you want to spend all this money on this thing. These people hate it. Like figure out why they hate why they're doing what they're doing.
you know, it's like, actually address the discontent, not trying to quell it with some like, I don't know, some fiefdom or something, you know, and then, you know, because there's a way to make it and it's funny, because I'm talking to the junior, the
legal assistant and she's like, I'm like, I'm trying to find a way to make it work for everybody, not just you or not just, you know, sue my principal or whatever. I'm like, because there's a way to do it. It's just, if you're not curious, you're not open to it, you're not going to see the potential of all these solutions to kind of connect them in a new way. And she's like, Oh, but it's not everybody does that. So I think maybe that becomes the pen to paper lesson, future thing because this has been a constant evolution. This podcast may just continue to evolve.
just like us, hopefully, if we learn and grow over time.
Cameron Craig (01:22:15.257)
Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's a good wrap up. Well said at the end, man.
Keith (01:22:20.839)
Awesome. Yeah. Well, again, dude, thank you for an awesome year. Thank you for inviting me to kind of do this again. Like this has been it's been a lot of fun. It's definitely been cathartic and helpful to with like all the chaos. So like I appreciate this and I appreciate you man and hope you have an awesome new year safe and healthy everything.
Cameron Craig (01:22:23.991)
Yeah, you too Keith.
Cameron Craig (01:22:35.329)
Yeah, same, same. I, I appreciate you. I've learned and continue to learn a ton from you. And this has been, as you said, exactly what I think we both needed. So let's keep doing it. Yep. Thanks, man. Appreciate you later. See ya.
Keith (01:22:48.139)
Yeah man, to another great year.
Alright dude, alright you too man, appreciate you too. Later!