Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
Exploring how humans connect and get stuff done together, with Dan Hammond and Pia Lee from Squadify.
We need groups of humans to help navigate the world of opportunities and challenges, but we don't always work together effectively. This podcast tackles questions such as "What makes a rockstar team?" "How can we work from anywhere?" "What part does connection play in today's world?"
You'll also hear the thoughts and views of those who are running and leading teams across the world.
[00:00:00] Dan: Are you having a few issues with someone at work? Or perhaps you're leading a team where there are fracture lines of conflict. This week on We Not Me, we're talking to Tania Waters, an experienced mediator of workplace conflict, so we can learn how to move through these difficulties and find a harmonious outcome for everyone involved.
[00:00:17] Hello and welcome back to We Not Me, the podcast where we explore how humans connect to get stuff done together. I'm Dan Hammond.
[00:00:28] Pia: And I am Pia Lee. Dan Hammond, I'm gonna ask you a really direct question here because the topic today is conflict. resolution. So you seem a very congenial guy, and I know you don't, you don't, run towards conflict. So it would take something to get your goat, as they would say in, in England.
[00:00:44] Dan: I do see myself as genial, actually. I like to think so. Um, the only thing that annoys me is people asking me annoying questions, Pia, but I'll park that one for now. joking. I'm, I'm joking. The outcome. It's worth it. It's worth it. No. Um, so I did once lose my rag with someone. And in, when I look back on that, it, it's, it's, the thing. I, I'm not proud of this moment I have to say, but I was on a, um, I was working in a, in a big multinational and I was on a speakerphone call with, it was me, someone in the regional office, and one of my, uh, someone in my team and the person in the regional office was being incredibly uncollaborative. and, and I just lost it. I actually shouted at him.
[00:01:32] It was the only time I think I, the only time I've ever raised my voice and I've been in, in work and I've been working since 1988, Pia, because I'm a dinosaur. Um, but yeah, it just got to me and I thought what we need here is, is collaboration. We need to be helping each other. And you are just piling pressure on my people and it's not helpful. So interesting that I end up here, in a role helping people to collaborate, isn't it? So I obviously some
[00:02:00] Pia: that. was your penance.
[00:02:02] Dan: some raw nerves I'm trying to put balm on. But yeah, I often look back on that and think, wow, something clearly triggered me there.
[00:02:08] Pia: And you know how you, you're meant to find some sort of common middle ground when you are in a, in a mediation conversation. What was his response when you shouted at him?
[00:02:17] Dan: Uh, well, I think it was, um, just to ignore what I just said basically, and pretend it hadn't happened.
[00:02:23] Pia: Right. Just ignore, ignore that
[00:02:25] Dan: You know, it was, it was very, um, it was pretty, and actually, to be honest, I think it's a pretty typical situation, honestly, where we each had jobs and the sort of, taking that balcony view of that situation from a leadership standpoint, okay, what's actually happening here? That was not happening for either of us, including me. I did not do that well in that situation. And I think that's pretty common actually, that, uh, it became. We took sides. And obviously I was on the correct side. He decided to be on the wrong side. I dunno why. Um, but, but I'm joking. But um, but yeah, it was interesting. There wasn't that higher level, sort of balcony view.
[00:03:04] Pia: And, and, and that's why you really need a workplace mediation and conflict resolution consultant, which we have today. It's gonna Dan sort out. Yeah. Now I do. So, thi this is Tania Waters from Tate. Very experienced in this role, and she's gonna talk us through maybe a little bit about how these situations come about, but how to try and find that middle ground and not shout at the speakerphone.
[00:03:32] Dan: Yeah, not my proudest moment. Let's, let's move on swiftly and hear from Tania.
[00:03:39] Pia: So a really warm welcome to you, Tania. Lovely to have you on the show.
[00:03:43] Tania: Oh, thank you very much Pia and Dan. It's an absolute pleasure to be here.
[00:03:47] Pia: And, and this is exciting. You're sort of halfway between Byron and Ilkley being in Perth. So I, I think so sort of, maybe not halfway, but you know, sort of. Um, and we've got, I mean, this is just gonna be a very interesting topic, talking about workplace mediation and your business Tate, uh, and all the work that you do around conflict resolution. So it seems appropriate that we then put you in the hotspot and, um, and, and, and ramp things up and, and put you into the hands of the, of the card meister, Mr. Hammond.
[00:04:19] Dan: All right, I'm trying to, I'm not, I'm just not, not forcing you to have a red card. I think that, I dunno, it's a Monday morning here for me. I, I sort of feel like that seems a bit harsh, so
[00:04:29] let me just
[00:04:30] Tania: I agree. Something nice and gentle.
[00:04:32] Dan: Okay. Here's a really strange one. Um, we have, but we haven't had it before. My favorite smell. What's your favorite smell?
[00:04:40] Tania: Oh, well, I think there's quite a lot actually. Um, I'm someone who really notices smells, but, uh, the smell of the top of my dog's head.
[00:04:51] Dan: Oh,
[00:04:52] Pia: Oh, oh,
[00:04:55] Tania: That earthy. You know, you bury your nose and you're feeling a bit stressed maybe, and you sort of inhale it in and you sort of just get brought back down to earth. It's very grounding.
[00:05:06] Pia: And is that wet dog or dry
[00:05:08] Tania: No, no. Dry dog please. Pia.
[00:05:11] Dan: yeah. There's nothing good about a
[00:05:14] Tania: No,
[00:05:14] Pia: there is a wet dog smell that is not quite as like woo.
[00:05:18] Dan: Um, and so, so just briefly, what sort of, what sort of dog is she?
[00:05:21] Tania: She is a miniature schnauzer, crossed with a Maltese. So, uh, I think she was sold to us as a mauser because apparently here, certainly in Western Australia, if you give them a fancy sounding name, you can charge a lot
[00:05:33] Dan: Huge. Yeah.
[00:05:34] Pia: Oh, that's great. That's, yeah, that's, that's a winner. Absolute winner. Schnauzer Bowser Rouser. Oh, that's $7,000. Thank you.
[00:05:43] Dan: I thought it was gonna be a Malteser, but I'm sure Malsr It makes more sense. Excellent. Excellent. So Tania, tell us a bit more about you.
[00:05:50] Tania: Uh, I was born and bred in Western Australia, and I was an only child to two warring parents. So actually if I look back, I think, uh, I started my mediation career very early.. and I worked in Australia and internationally. And I sort of had quite a long management career in law firms of all things. Sort of started working at one law firm and ended up staying in that particular sector in different sort of managerial roles. And ended up in HR, uh, towards the end of my career, working for other people also in law. And then decided to go out on my own. And so I started Tate about three years ago. And, uh, primarily now I work as a workplace mediator, an independent one. I am also employed to do conflict management coaching, and I also get quite a bit of work as an executive coach, mainly from my mediation clients.
[00:06:45] Dan: We're gonna get to dive into that subject because it's fascinating and much needed. Um, what led you into this world of, of conflict and mediation? What, what, what were the, on that journey? What, what made you think, that's what I wanna do. I wanna run my own business doing this?
[00:07:02] Tania: Well, I was a bit slow on the uptake. I really, uh, I, I was the sort of person who never really knew what I wanted to do, so my career really just fell into place. You know, I sort of took one job and I would get promoted and then it would lead to the next opportunity, and a similar thing would take place. I did study human resources when I went to University as a late teenager. Only because I didn't like any of the other options, which were like accounting, IT, marketing, you know, those majors, none of them sort of floated my boat. So I took on the new one, which was Human Resources, which was quite new back in 1990. I think it was sort of was just migrating from personnel. So I went, went and did that. I was wildly in love at that point, so there wasn't much sort of focus on my studies. Uh, I, I married the person that I was wildly in love with, so, um, you know, it was worthwhile.
[00:07:55] Pia: That's a good HR experiment.
[00:07:56] Tania: Yeah, yeah, that's right. I was clearly, I was a child bride. Um, so when I came to it later in life, uh, I had been working in HR and I had had an opportunity, one particular opportunity comes to mind where there was a, a couple of really senior lawyers who were at loggerheads with one another, and it looked like one or both would leave the firm. And they worked in a very profitable practice area. And so the senior management of the firm were really quite worried that they were gonna lose these talented individuals who were not easy to replace and potentially lose a big chunk of that very profitable practice area. So they looked at me as the head of HR and said Okay Tania, go to it.
[00:08:45] So at that point in time, um, I had been thinking about what the next stage of my career was going to look like. And I had been doing a lot of reading things that interested me, it happened to be conflict. And I was using the workplace as a bit of a personal laboratory at that point. So I was doing a bit of job crafting, uh, to see, um, what my next stage might look like.
[00:09:08] And so I suggested that, uh, the two of them get into a room with me and that I would facilitate a conversation between the two of them. So they both agreed to do that. They really didn't feel like they had any other type of option. Both were very upset. And we sat down in the room and, one person started to, to, uh, talk about what was upsetting them, and the, the other person, the lawyer was frantically writing down everything that, that the, the woman was saying. And I could see her getting more and more frustrated because she was trying to express herself and he wouldn't look up at her. He was just head down, writing, writing, writing.
[00:09:46] And eventually, see, she said, you are not listening to me. And he said, yes, I'm, but I'm just writing down so I'm to respond. So I, I looked at him and he was a, a partner. And so, uh, I asked him whether he might put down his pen and turn his page over and actually look at the other person while she was speaking to him. And he looked at me and looked a bit shocked. Who's this HR manager telling me what to do? Uh, however, he did put down the pen and did, um, turn his page over and look at the other person.
[00:10:17] And that's when the magic started to happen. Uh, all of a sudden he was looking at her, he was listening to her, she was looking him in the eye. He was matching her eye contact, and it wasn't, it didn't take too long for them actually to start to hear one another.
[00:10:34] And once they did, uh, they both had a cry and they both made some decisions about how they were gonna move forward. And I simply was an observer to all of that. And I remember thinking, Oh my goodness, I cannot believe what is happening before me. And at the end, the partner pulled me into a room and he said to me, Tania, I had no idea you knew how to do this. And inside I thought Oh my goodness, neither did I.
[00:11:04] Pia: no, I, I did not either.
[00:11:07] Dan: I think we say we've, we're all surprised.
[00:11:09] Pia: We've all had those ones.
[00:11:11] Tania: So that was the, I guess that was the moment that when I was thinking about what I was going to do next, and someone said to me, look back over your career and think about the moments that mattered, that was the first moment that came to mind, where I really lost all trace of time and space, I was completely absorbed by what was happening in front me and I felt like I was where I was supposed to be in that moment and that I, I did actually make a difference to those people.
[00:11:43] Pia: that, I mean, it's an amazing story actually, and a really nice story story to start because when we think of conflict, it can turn ugly pretty quickly. So what, what sets these situations up in the workplace? Is it poor systems? Is it poor objectives, uh, structure? What creates it, or is it just personalities get in the way?
[00:12:05] Tania: No, I, I think, Pia, you're spot on. It's, it's all of those things. It's always interesting at the end of a mediation to have a look at, you know, if there've been any organizational factors that may have come into play. And I've yet to have a mediation where there hasn't been organizational factors. So much so that I would even suggest quite boldly that in most mediations, the two people before me in workplace mediations likely would've ended up in mediation in front of me. You could have got two different people, but put them in the same roles, in the same organization, and they were likely to come into conflict and into high conflict.
[00:12:45] So sometimes you get different personalities who have a greater appetite or aptitude for conflict so it might not have gotta mediation. They may have been able to find a way forward without needing an independent third party come and help them. However, I think the organizational factors are enough that you would've had those two people in the chair whether or not they needed a mediator.
[00:13:08] Dan: That's a huge insight, Tania. Uh, and, and I think very much aligned with our thinking that that, that we very often look at those sort of, oh, well, they're a difficult person, or they're argumentative. But actually what you're saying is no, I, I could substitute that person, um, with someone else and they would probably be in the same, come to the same point of conflict. That's, um, that's, that's. Pretty powerful actually, and, and heartening. But what, and so Tania, what do these, what does conflict look like in the workplace?
[00:13:39] Tania: Well, it, it depends. I mean, it's very different for different people. So, sometimes it's just that the two people just can no longer, um, come into contact with one another. And organizations are funny things. They, you know, they have workarounds. So, you know, you might start, I, I remember starting in an organization and then sort of saying, look, the po the, the process for this is, you know, you go to this person and they authorize it, and then you go to that person and they authorize it. However, those two people don't actually talk to one another. So in this instance, you know, need to go to person A, and then you don't go to person C. You've give it person D who will give it to person B, because A and B don't talk, you know.
[00:14:20] So, there you used to be all this weird stuff that used to go on, and, and still does go on in organizations, but there's new work health and safety laws now, certainly here in Western Australia that say that organizations now, they actually have to take some steps to address workplace conflict, so you can no longer have those sort of workarounds. But often the workaround is, is a first sign that something's up with the relationship.
[00:14:45] But the other end of it is you have two people who you know are at risk of, you know, violence. So you know, I have mediated where I've had to have my back closest to the door so I can get out the room if the two of them start punching one another. And, and I've got some, um, you know, security outside as well. So you can go from just that passive aggressive type behavior or people that just have to work from home on different days 'cause they can't be in the office at the same time all the way through to the, the threat of physical violence. And you get everything in between.
[00:15:15] Pia: And I mean, when you are getting to that point where you got physical violence, I mean, is that because it's been left to simmer for too long, or is that you know?
[00:15:25] Tania: No, it's usually because it's been left for too long. I mean, just an hour ago I just received an email from a client, a big university, and they've said Are you still available to mediate that matter? I mean, it was months ago that they contacted me about that matter. You know, just gets left and left and left. And these poor people, you know, are working with their workarounds, you know, or they're on long term sick leave, they're not sleeping, it's affecting their relationships.
[00:15:52] I had two parties in front of me. One person lost the purchase of a house because of the workplace conflict. 'cause they had to go off on sick leave. And then it was right in the time where they were getting the money from the bank. And then the bank said, no, we're gonna lend you the money. And it's, the cost is really high and I think sometimes the, the human resources teams or the manager or the employee relations teams or the industrial relations team don't quite understand that timeliness is a really big factor and things get really much worse, much quicker if you sit on it for a long period of time.
[00:16:29] Dan: And I, I imagine that's important partly because obviously while there's conflict, there's, there's suffering and also organizational, uh, performance issues going on, you know, sort of at the same time. But also I imagine as time goes on, the division and the weight, the sort of history weighs on people and makes it ease harder to back down. You sort of, you sort of reinforce your position over time, don't you? Um, I'm guessing that makes the actual mediation harder when it's, when it's, when it's older.
[00:16:59] Tania: Yes, I think they become typically very positional. And also the longer the time goes, the more simplified the story becomes. So all the nuance, all the complexity goes out of it, and it becomes a very simple story about me and them, about the good guy versus the bad guy. And you know, confirmation bias is a wonderful thing, you know. Next thing they pass the person in the corridor and they say, good morning. And the person doesn't say Good morning back, perhaps because they're wearing their plugs in their ears, like, I'm now, and the person doesn't see the plugs and they just think, oh, there's more evidence that she doesn't like me. You know, they, they have a story and they look for things to substantiate that.
[00:17:42] Pia: So what do you look for, like when you're sitting two people down who've been in conflict? What, what, what's the process that you are trying to start?
[00:17:52] Tania: Well, it's really based around curiosity. So always before any workplace mediation, I will always have a pre-mediation session with each of the parties. And in that pre-mediation session, we cover off on three things. What's happened, what has the impact been to that person, and what are they hoping to achieve out of mediation?
[00:18:14] And so both of those people will share those things with me privately, one on one. And typically it could last up to two hours. And so when those two people come together, they will both have an opportunity to speak uninterrupted at the beginning of the mediation, and they'll answer pretty much those three things. This is why I think we're here today. This is what this situation has been like for me as I've experienced it, and this is what I'm hoping we might be able to achieve today out of mediation.
[00:18:45] And when those people make those opening statements, sometimes it's the first time that the other person has actually heard, um, you know, from that other party about what their view is of the conflict and, and what the experience has been like for them. And so straight away some of those walls start to come down, and some of those assumptions start to get upended. Um, so you know it really right from the beginning, things start to loosen up. And straight away they can see there's more complexity involved and their simplified story starts to change.
[00:19:21] Dan: Could you perhaps illustrate that for us? I know you, you'll have client confidentiality to, um, to sort of keep an eye on, but is there a way of illustrating that? Because that sounds pretty, um, hopeful actually, that your, that immediate sharing of the other side and the listening to the other side, it can actually start to melt these quite intractable things quite quickly. Could, could you illustrate it with maybe a, even a, a sort of a vanilla-ised case study if you like?
[00:19:48] Tania: Sure. Well, I mean, a couple come to mind. But there was one that I had fairly recently, and these two people, really senior professional people, very highly educated, in a big, uh, government organization. And they were in conflict with one another because they'd come to the conclusion they simply could not work together.
[00:20:10] And when they started to talk about it, they both told me separately in pre-mediation about this, this, um, situation that occurred in a meeting. And one of them explained to me that they'd received an email from the other one, and, uh, that email had a few questions in it, and, and the recipient of the email responded pretty much straight away and answered all the questions that the person had.
[00:20:36] And then they, when there was no receipt, you know, there was no further email was received to say, look, thanks very much for clarifying that. You know, so put quite a of time answering all the question in the email. They sent it off and then there was nothing but deafening silence.
[00:20:50] And next thing they find themselves in a meeting, a team meeting, and the person who had the email asking all the questions, then brought it up in the team meeting, and said to the other side, I've still got all these questions, rah, rah, rah, rah, rah. And the other person who'd spent quite a bit of time answering the email and answering all the questions in depth, really got their nose out of joint and thought, my goodness, you know, I've sent you all this information privately and now you are bringing it up in a public forum. And they were embarrassed. So they proceeded to, uh, answer the questions again, but really, really unhappy with the way that this person had handled themselves. And they told me that in the pre-mediation session.
[00:21:37] The other party didn't tell me about the email. They simply talked about the meeting and how they brought these things up in the meeting and how badly received it was by the other side. And really just so disproportionate was quite reasonable that I should ask these questions and I cannot understand why they would, you know, clearly it was obvious to everyone in the room that, you know, they didn't like my question and I felt embarrassed and so anyway.
[00:22:01] So when they got together and they talk, they gave, made through their opening statements and one referenced this email, when it came time to talk to one another, it very quickly became evident that the person who sent the email didn't realize that the recipient never received or read the email. So person A who sent the email with all the questions on it, sent it through to person B. And person B sent all the answers back to person A. But person A never received the answers to their questions. And so they went to the meeting
[00:22:39] Dan: And then it was brought up in public, so there was, the thing becomes emotional, doesn't it? Because someone is, is being made to look sort of small or, or they're, they're, they're being sort of hurt in some way in public.
[00:22:52] Tania: Mm. Well, they both came at it, you know, one had sent this email, the other one didn't know that the other person had bothered to reply. So they came at it from, from completely different perspectives. And of course then when they actually spoke about it and they realized that the person had bothered to, to respond, but actually this person hadn't received it, then there was this few minutes of, you are calling me a liar, and one of the parties quit their job 10 minutes into the mediation. But, uh, we just kept going. And, uh, at the end of the day, uh, once they realized that it had all just been a breakdown in communication, they actually put their arms around another, around one another, and asked me to take a photograph of them.
[00:23:35] So I have this picture on my phone of these two people with big grins on their faces and arms around one another. And one of them privately said to me, the one that quit the job said, oh my goodness, you know, I quit my job 10 minutes in. She said, that's been a pattern for me, right throughout my whole life, she said. And it's really, today is the first time, it's become very evident to me what I do in conflict, and that is I throw in the towel and, and walk away. And she said, I've learned so much about myself today.
[00:24:06] And, and these two people, once they figured out that actually it was really just about an email that hadn't been received, were aligned on everything else, but literally the organization was going to lose one, if not both of those people simply because of a misunderstanding that they couldn't bring themselves to actually talk about, which is pretty sad really.
[00:24:29] Pia: It is. And, and that's, I mean, it is sometimes the, a whole bunch of small things that can, that can all escalate. I did wanna ask you about when things might get complex and there's conflict, but there's a suspicion that one of the parties may have a personality disorder or an overplay of a, of a style, so, you know, you, there are just one or two narcissists wandering around inside organizations and they may not be entirely truthful, so that must, must add a layer of complexity when you're not quite sure whether what you're hearing is necessarily the truth or the, or the, or the perception of what's really gone on.
[00:25:15] Tania: In, in pre-mediation, usually I'm looking for a couple of different things. I'm looking to see whether the people have an ability to perspective take. So part of that prem mediation is hearing their story about what's happened, what the impact has been to them, and what they're hoping to achieve. But in the telling of that, I'm looking for their ability to perspective take.
[00:25:38] The other thing that I'm sort of looking for is to see, as far as I can tell, as a person, I'm not a psychologist, um, but to tell that the person is genuine and is not playing games. And so I deliberately poke the bear a little bit to see what sort of response I'm going to get. And recently, I chose not to proceed with a mediation after conducting both the prem mediations, because I found one of the parties, they, they didn't take very much poking to, to just see a completely different side of the person that I had seen to date.
[00:26:19] So in, in the arranging of the mediation, they had been hugely respectful and very easy to get along with. And this person, um, was at the very top of an organization. So really affable, quite charismatic. And then in the pre-mediation session, again, in the very beginning, very personable, quite reflective. But as soon as I started to poke a little bit, this completely other side. Um, this other part of them emerged. And I couldn't risk which version of them I was going to get in the mediation itself, and there was quite a power imbalance between the two parties. And so I felt uncomfortable proceeding and so I declined the mediation.
[00:27:10] And that's one of the things you can do as a mediator. And at the end of the day, its, it's my name, it's my reputation, and it's my business. And, uh, you know, if I don't feel like I can bring the two people together, uh, in a safe environment or in a brave environment, and for them to have a very real and full and frank conversation, if I don't feel like I've got the ability to, to, to hold that for them, then I'll simply opt out and, and that's what I did.
[00:27:41] So, you're right, Pia, it's you, you do have to be careful and not every person is the, the right person to have in mediation. However, it's pretty rare. It's very rare. There was one other time that I proceeded early on in my mediation career that I look back on now and wish that I hadn't. Um, I think if I knew then what I know now, I would never have agreed to proceed. But I just didn't have enough experience to see it.
[00:28:07] Pia: I think that's the interesting because in order for mediation to work, both parties need to take a step forward so that there is a middle ground, and that requires emotional intelligence to be able to separate the things that are triggering us and take ownership for the things that we can take responsibility over.
[00:28:27] And there are people, a lot of people in workplaces actually, I've discovered quite a lot of narcissists. You know, there, there are people that are incredibly successful. but do have this darker shadow side to them that actually makes it, makes it very difficult. And that to me, where my work is, like that's, that's, that's beyond my capacity, that, that requires a professional who knows a bit more about that, that behavioral psychology and to, to manage it. But it must be interesting when you're in that situation of why the, why the conflict has arisen anyway.
[00:29:00] Tania: I mean, I felt, I felt pretty bad because the other party was very genuine and it was a really untenable situation. I really don't know, apart from having the two of them sit down and actually talk about it, how that that situation was gonna be resolved. But you've gotta make a decision at the end of the day, and, and that was the decision that I made and I continued to reflect on it, and I'm still happy that it was the right decision. But as for what, what other options they had or have, I really don't know. Of course, this person started messaging me the next day saying please mediate. I'll, I'll, I'll behave nicely. I've really reflected on the things that we talked about. But, no, I just couldn't risk it. I couldn't risk it.
[00:29:43] Dan: No. The, oh, again, a sign of a narcissist that, uh, what is the, the, the sort of glibness. Yeah. Um, Tania, it strikes me that, um, some of these behaviors you are, that people are encountering are mirroring, obviously the society that we live in. You know, we, we, um, we don't have many good examples of people resolving conflict in front of our eyes. You know, you go on Twitter or X or whatever it's currently called, and you know, people are drawn into conflict. We become positional. You know, look at our politicians. It's, there's very rarely any actual coming together. It's positional. So I, I, I feel we are pre preconditioned to take positions.
[00:30:25] In that pre-mediation, do you have to do any work to sort of move people into that perspective taking? Sort of, so a bit of development or opening that curiosity or anything? Do, do you, do you sort of prepare them in some way for a successful outcome in the actual mediation?
[00:30:42] Tania: Yes, that's exactly right. It, it really is a curious conversation. I mean, I love to listen to people and I love to listen to people share their story. And so, um, often the employer will want to send me the workplace investigation report or a copy of the grievances that have been lodged. And I always say, no, please, please don't. I don't wanna see anything. I would really like to hear it firsthand from the parties. And in that way, my curiosity really is genuine. I don't have any preconceived ideas. And often they'll sit down and they'll, I mean, sometimes they're disappointed that I haven't read the sort of lever arch file of, you know, all the history. But that, that temper's usually pretty quickly. And then they can hear that my questioning is genuine.
[00:31:29] And they really then start to go further, deeper, deeper into the detail. You know the oh, and, could you explain a bit more, but then what else, what else, what else? And so they then start to get clear in their own minds about what's really going on, and at the end of the pre-mediation session, their story is usually quite vastly different from the story they started with at the beginning of the pre-mediation session, with really not much for me. I, I really provide the opportunity for them to be heard in full. I'm not in a hurry. I'm genuinely curious. And so they really start to unpack it in front of me often for the first time.
[00:32:12] Dan: That's fascinating. I imagine people. Sometimes come into those sessions thinking, great, we've got a professional now who will now tell me I'm, I was right and they were wrong.
[00:32:21] Tania: Yes. They, it's, it's so interesting that that's exactly right. They initially start to try and convince me why they are right and the other side is wrong. And I had a, I had, um, brings me, there was another man who actually got really, uh, quite angry with me in the prem mediation session when he realized that I wasn't going to make a determination at the end of it. And he, really challenged me and said, well, he suggested that I was unprofessional, um, fancy charging money to his employer if I wasn't gonna give my professional opinion. Um, and so, you know, we talked a little bit about what my role as an independent mediator was really about. Of course at the of the day, at the end of the mediation session, he was hugely grateful and had hada really wonderful outcome. But at the beginning of the day, yeah, he wasn't quite as sold on it. He was just there to convince me that he was right.
[00:33:18] Pia: Tania, something I'm interested in too is do, do you have situations where, um, there is conflict between members of a team, so multiple people and a, and a leader or another member of the team, so that, I mean, it could be like a, a faction happening inside a team, or it could be the team leader has fallen out with team members, and does that become more difficult when there's a dynamic of multiple people?
[00:33:45] Tania: Yes, I, I think there are, in every workplace conflict there are usually more, more people at play. So sometimes you can get the two key players, the, the two people that the conflict really involves. And once those two people are able to resolve that conflict, the other 10 team members then fall into line. I mean, there are some people who actually really enjoy a bit of conflict in the workplace and it provides a degree of entertainment for them.
[00:34:17] So, um, you know, that often comes up in the mediation. We'll talk about who the other players may be in the relationship, um, so that, that usually gets unpacked. So often if you can resolve the conflict between the two main people, that whole team dynamic will shift and, and the rest of the people will fall into line.
[00:34:39] Dan: And a, a quick backup, que follow up question to that, Tania. Have you worked in conflict between teams, whole teams who've just fallen out with each other and they, they, but they depend on each other?
[00:34:50] Tania: That's so timely, Dan. I keep getting asked for, for that work where it is, two teams, one against another, you know, that's sort of how it's packaged up when I get the phone call. And have been declining that work because I don't have any direct experience in it. And I'm not willing to take something on unless I know I can, I can really, you know, add value.
[00:35:16] So in March I am going to Melbourne, uh, and there's a course being run there by, um, two PhD doctors who are quite famous and they are talking about group conflict. So going off in my three day course to upskill in that area to see whether I might be able to provide a valuable solution to organizations here in WA, but I'm not somebody who like to wing it. So, um, I said, no. I've said no until this point. I like to be good at what I do, and so that's why I work in a very narrow field and I just say no to all thE other stuff.
[00:35:58] Dan: Yeah, I think in, in this world of teams, of teams, I'm sure it's, it's interesting you're, you're being asked for that, but um, I'm sure you'd be amazing at that and it'll be, it'll be wonderful to hear how you get on when you come back from your course and you've done a couple of those.
[00:36:12] But Tania, we are near the end of our conversation. Um, before we close with a tip, do you have any advice on a book that you would, you would get people to read on this topic or anything else you'd particularly recommend?
[00:36:25] Tania: Well, um, I'm a, I'm an avid reader, so I've read lots of books on conflict. And I've read one very recently called High Conflict, Why We Get Trapped and How We Get Out by, uh, Amanda Ripley. Um, she's actually a journalist by profession, so it's just a really great read and it actually begins ,with a famous mediator who gets trapped in conflict himself. So I found it very fascinating because here is somebody who actually knows the dynamic of conflict. He has helped thousands of people find a way forward in conflict through mediation. He's very good at it, and yet here he is, just falling into the trap of this high conflict. So I found it fascinating to read. It's very, very well written. Uh, it's easy to understand. I think we can all see ourselves in some of the characters. And it's got some great tips, so I highly recommend it. You don't have to be a practitioner to find it an enjoyable read.
[00:37:33] Dan: it sounds really good actually. Uh, thank you Tania. That, uh, will details up, be in the show notes. And, uh, so Tania, leave us with, leave our listener with Just something practical that they can do if they find themselves being drawn into conflict. If they see others, maybe they're a team leader and they're seeing conflict, um, in their team. What's, um, what's something practical that, a practical step that someone can take to start to ameliorate, reduce, mitigate the situation?
[00:37:59] Tania: Uh, don't ignore it, it's probably my best advice. I, I know that's easier said than done, but a really beautiful line to open up a conversation about conflict can be, I've noticed. So even if it's between yourself and another person just say, Dan, Pia, I've noticed that things feel a bit strange between us all of a sudden, could we have a conversation to talk about that? But I've noticed is a really beautiful opening line that doesn't tend to get people's defenses up.
[00:38:36] And so it might be then if you are the HR person and you've noticed that Dan and Pia are not working as well as they used to, then it might be a conversation to say, Hey Dan, look, I've noticed that the relationship between you and Pia doesn't seem to be as warm as it used to be. Is there something that you need some help with? Can you help me understand what's going on between the two of you?
[00:38:59] Pia: Yeah, I rea I really like that I've noticed. I think that it's a very neutral way to bring to light something that might just be quite small, um, but could become really significant. And it is that, well, we leave things and then they just, uh, mushroom into something much bigger. We don't run towards trying to address complex, so we do let it fester and that's when it can be really tricky.
[00:39:22] Tania: Yeah. So if you wanna put someone like me out of business, have the conversation.
[00:39:26] Dan: Wonderful. Excellent. I'm sure you will be just fine, Tania, even though we've, despite the power of that, uh, that piece of advice. Uh, but thank you so much for being on the show, Tania. It's been wonderful to open the lid on these things and I think really helpful for our listeners. So thank you for joining us today.
[00:39:43] Tania: Thanks for your interest in conflict.
[00:39:44] I'm really grateful.
[00:39:48] Pia: I liked your question that you asked. You said, what, what's a really simple thing you could do? And I really liked Tania's answer 'cause it was equally simple. And the I've noticed that, because it sort of takes a sting out. I mean, I, I think part of conflict can happen because we dunno how to say things upfront and then they fester. But that I've noticed that, is a way to quickly, I've noticed that you are looking a bit fed up or that I might have hurt your feelings, or I might, kind of, when we can nip things in the bud, I think we probably stand a much better chance of solving the rupture, the, the rupture repaired. That's what I was once taught.
[00:40:29] Dan: Oh rupture repair. Like it. Yeah, that's very good. Hey, and I really love that as well, and it seems totally different from the one, I think this drives you nuts as well, but I'm curious is often a way in which, I know we've talked about it on, in this very podcast before, but, um, how that is sort of, that's so often when I've heard it used, it's sort of weaponized. That person isn't curious. They're wanting to make a point and some reason.
[00:40:55] Pia: I'm curious why you're an absolute nut bag.
[00:40:59] Dan: Exactly. And whereas I've noticed, I dunno why, I'd have to think about it, but it feels like those words are just sort of, I've, I've noticed it's just a pure observation. Whereas the curiosity seems to add an element of I want to know, and I'm gonna dig in there and I've actually got something to say about this. So yeah, I've noticed was, um, was, was a nice one. I think everyone can, I think I can certainly pick that up.
[00:41:23] Pia: And if they're overused, they lose power. And I think that's what curious is, is, is actually a good phrase, but it's sort of become overused. And then we sort of get this infectiousness about certain phrases and then we can't stop saying them. And then everyone's saying them. And then it's, and then we lose the power of it because it's, there's nothing wrong with it.
[00:41:41] Dan: You are right. And actually it's one of these filler words, isn't it? If you've got a question, ask the question. Don't say I'm curious, what are you doing on Tuesday? Just say, are you doing Tuesday? You're obviously curious. You've got a question mark at the end of what you're about to say. So there's a little bit of filler, sort of blah, blah, blah there, I think.
[00:41:59] Um, hey, the, the other thing that struck me from. Tania, was she? Well, she's superbly modest, I thought. She's solved some tricky issues here. She's very modest. So this may be slightly overstated, if you like, but was the simplicity, the ease with which she's able to, or she's helped people and therefore the ease with which these conflicts can be solved. You know, that she, by allowing people to express themselves to each other and having the other person listen, in a lot of cases it sounds like that that does it.
[00:42:31] So you think conflict resolution you sort of conjure up the Palestinians and Israel or something, you know, really complicated the, you know, UN or whatever. Actually most of these things are just spats that we just need to take a moment to think about the other side. And when we do that, we actually are empathetic and, and it's gonna solve it in a lot of situations. That, that really struck me. And so it's something we can all take away from this. I think they seem intractable. Actually they are, um, tractable, if that's a word. I don't think it is.
[00:42:59] Pia: And she, she saw it as suffering. 'Cause actually nobody really wants to be in conflict, and there is a lot of suffering. But sometimes we just almost want to be in the suffering because we dunno how to get out of it. So.
[00:43:12] Dan: I think so. Yeah, yeah. And our, our limbic brains are tuned to threat. So, and these conflicts are, are threats, aren't they? And so I think they chew, they sort of chew us up a little bit from the inside, they're sort of the, we sort of turn them over in that part of our brain, over and over again. And, um, and actually trying to break out of that loop to, to, yeah, to sort of repair that rupture is really important. But yeah, otherwise we are, we are well suffering.
[00:43:42] Pia: So I'm, I'm, gonna put you out of your suffering. So the man on the speakerphone. Now with the benefit of Tania's insight. What would you have done differently?
[00:43:52] Dan: You and your questions. You started badly, you're finishing badly. Um, the, so I would have. got onto the balcony and said, Okay, what's happening here? He had a job, he was under huge pressure. And just because I thought that wasn't a very useful job to be doing, that's not his fault. I'd actually done a similar job myself, so I think I'd have just moved into that space, had a one-to-one with him and understood what he was trying to achieve, and his pressures, really tried to empathize with him. And then I would. Let him know my side of things and what I was seeing, the impact he was having on our team and how that wasn't helpful. But I think I'd, I, I need to go first and understand his, his viewpoint.
[00:44:35] But that didn't happen. We operated at the task level and almost fought out these emotional battles by talking about tasks. And it wasn't, it wasn't the real battle. It was like a proxy war that we were fighting. And I, I, and I'd have done a better job now because I'm so wise, so mature that I never have any problems at all.
[00:44:54] Pia: Do you know what? I'd love say and here we have him on the phone. He's just calling in.
[00:45:01] Dan: Yeah, you would love that, wouldn't you? See me squirm.
[00:45:04] Pia: It's all good.
[00:45:06] Dan: It's all fine. It's water under the bridge now. Long forgotten Um, yeah, exactly, wouldn't talk, talk about on a podcast a decade later or something. Uh, but thank you for that, Pia, putting me on the spot.
[00:45:16] But that, thank goodness, is it for this episode. Um, you can find show notes right where you are listening or at squadify.net. If you've enjoyed the show. Please do share the love and recommend it to your friends. And if you'd like to contribute to the show, just email us at wenotmepod@gmail.com. We Not Me is produced by Mark steadman. Thank you so much for listening. it's goodbye from me.
[00:45:37] Pia: And it's goodbye from me.