EP19 (Part 1): “I Want to Plant my Flag with You All Over Here” - Nkata with Njideka Akunyili Crosby

Part One of a two-part conversation.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby’s illustrious career has brought Nigerian life and family histories into some of contemporary art’s most significant spaces. A 2017 MacArthur Fellow, she recently created The Obamas: Springing Forth for the Obama Presidential Center.

In conversation with Emeka Okereke, she reflects on the foundations laid by her mother and father, growing up in Nigeria, and the crossings and choices that shaped her life in art. Questions of belonging, ambition and trusting an inner compass emerge through personal recollection.

For artists, students, researchers and anyone curious about the life behind the work, this opening part offers a closer encounter with the experiences and thinking that nourish her practice.

In this conversation

- The foundations of a celebrated artistic practice
- Family, upbringing and the worlds that shape an artist
- Nigeria, migration and the possibilities of a life in art
- Cultural belonging and defining success on one’s own terms
- Influence, intuition and the inner compass of making

Chapters

00:00:00 Introduction of Njideka
00:03:59 Enugu, Lagos, Home
00:25:31 Making From Little
00:31:37 Dora’s Quiet Lessons
00:40:39 Surviving the Attack
00:50:28 Moving to America
01:02:39 Becoming an Artist
01:13:34 A New Nigerian Culture
01:23:26 Finding a Visual Language
01:33:35 Trusting the Inner Compass
01:47:23 Painting Through Uncertainty

About the guest

Njideka Akunyili Crosby is a Nigerian-born artist based in Los Angeles. Working across painting, drawing, collage and photographic transfer, she brings family histories, everyday spaces and Nigerian popular culture into compositions that hold multiple places and experiences together.

Listen to Part Two

Explore further

- NKATA Podcast
- Njideka Akunyili Crosby — artist profile and work
- The Obamas: Springing Forth — Obama Foundation

Listen to more conversations from Art & Processes at NKATA Podcast.

Portrait of Njideka Akunyili Crosby by Shaughn and John

★ Support this podcast on Patreon ★

Creators and Guests

Host

Emeka Okereke

What is NKATA: Art and Processes?

NKATA is an Igbo word from the language spoken by the Igbo people of Nigeria. It simply means "Conversation". Thus this podcast series will feature conversations with selected individuals (artists, cultural operators, and creatives) whose work I have known – some over many years and others, a little less so. What sets them apart is that I consider them and their works to be compelling, engaging and relevant to the time. The idea of this podcast is to have in-depth but also accessible conversations about who these individuals are, their life’s journeys and how this translates into their vocation as creative people. Conversations will depart from exploring the background of the artists' personal history while meandering through key themes, positions, and ideologies central to their works. Each episode will feature one conversation with a selected artist. Emeka Okereke (Host).

NOTE EP19: “I Want to Plant My Flag with You All Over Here” - Nkata with Njideka Akunyili Crosby | Part One
NOTE Lightly edited clean-read transcript, not verbatim. Nonsemantic hesitations, accidental function-word repetitions and selected abandoned starts have been removed; emphasis and substantive repetitions remain. Name corrections and unresolved wording are documented in the editorial record. Original cue time anchors are preserved; text-only omissions leave time gaps. This remains an edited automated transcript with flagged uncertainties, not a fully auditioned transcription.

[Opening theme music]

Emeka Okereke: Hello, hello, and welcome to yet another episode of NKATA

Emeka Okereke: Podcast Art and Processes.

Emeka Okereke: My name is Emeka Okereke, and today I am

Emeka Okereke: in conversation with Njideka Akunyili Crosby.

Emeka Okereke: Njideka is a Nigerian born artist who lives and works

Emeka Okereke: in Los Angeles, California.

Emeka Okereke: Born in Enugu in 1983.

Emeka Okereke: Njideka completed her MFA at Yale.

Emeka Okereke: In 2011.

Emeka Okereke: A residency at the Studio Museum in Harlem from 2011

Emeka Okereke: to 2012 became an important launch point.

Emeka Okereke: What has become an illustrious career.

Emeka Okereke: One that includes major international exhibitions

Emeka Okereke: work held in major museums, museum collections.

Emeka Okereke: The 2007 MacArthur Fellowship.

Emeka Okereke: And most recently, The Obamas: Springing Forth.

Emeka Okereke: The 1st official portrait of President Barack Obama

Emeka Okereke: and Mrs. Michelle Obama, for the Obama

Emeka Okereke: Presidential Center in Chicago.

Emeka Okereke: Walking across painting, drawing, collage

Emeka Okereke: and photographic transfer.

Emeka Okereke: Njideka brings together family archives, Nigerian

Emeka Okereke: popular culture, domestic spaces, multiple

Emeka Okereke: art historical images, and deeply personal recollections.

Emeka Okereke: Her images speak from an African experience, particularly in Nigerian one.

Emeka Okereke: While entering African-American conversations around black presence

Emeka Okereke: intimacy, family, and representation, Most significantly.

Emeka Okereke: In its consistency and deep respectful process.

Emeka Okereke: Her work offers a sustained articulation of

Emeka Okereke: the myriad stories of crossings.

Emeka Okereke: So, with no further ado, let me warmly welcome

Emeka Okereke: you, Njideka, to NKATA podcast.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Oh, Emeka, thank you so much for that beautiful introduction.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And I wanted to say earlier, it's such a pleasure to

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: finally meet you.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I am honored by the invitation.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I have followed your work

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: for a while.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I 1st heard of Invisible Borders when I was in Nigeria in 2012

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: and I was so taken by it.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Remember, like, googling and trying to read up all about it.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So, I was very honored

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: to get your email and thank you for your patience.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I know it took a lot of like, oh, please wait.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I'm busy, let's come knit up again.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And thank you for staying with it and

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: understanding and wait until I was able to do this.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: But I wanted to do this from the 1st email.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I just had to find the right time.

Emeka Okereke: I know, I know, I know.

Emeka Okereke: I've also been following.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: So, I sort of like caught wind of how busy you
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Oh.

Emeka Okereke: might be, you know, with the present

Emeka Okereke: opening of the presidential center in Chicago and

Emeka Okereke: I saw you, I saw videos of you.

Emeka Okereke: I saw you speaking about.

Emeka Okereke: I'm like, you know, this is amazing.

Emeka Okereke: We are going to get into all of that.

Emeka Okereke: I know that it’s become exponential

Emeka Okereke: since you're coming in, into your own, you know, since 2011.

Emeka Okereke: It's just you just keep going.

Emeka Okereke: And I've also followed your work.

Emeka Okereke: And what has been fascinating for me is

Emeka Okereke: the very, you know, when I listen to you speak about it.

Emeka Okereke: You also have the language for it.

Emeka Okereke: You also have the words for it because it's

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: but we are going to get into all of that.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Okay.
Emeka Okereke: very fascinating.

Emeka Okereke: So again, for me, it's a pleasure to have this opportunity

Emeka Okereke: because, like I say, you know, this podcast, they all come from

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: my own curiosity, about the process of fellow
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Mm-hmm.

Emeka Okereke: artists who, especially those who actually will come from

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: the same, you know, shared reality.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Uh-huh.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: yeah.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yes.

Emeka Okereke: So I want us to start really, as we

Emeka Okereke: always start on that podcast, to start from the

Emeka Okereke: beginning, the early beginnings, you growing up

Emeka Okereke: in Enugu, you born into this family, and

Emeka Okereke: we take it slowly so that we did a sense of how

Emeka Okereke: eventually became art, you know?

Emeka Okereke: So please go for it.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: so I was born in Enugu, New Haven.

Emeka Okereke: Yeah.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And, I don't know if you used to do this, but we used to

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: spend summers in the village, Agulu, with my grandmother.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And now I'm older and now that I have kids, I'm like, oh, that was summer.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: My parents didn't know what to do with us, so this was like a perfect

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: way to keep us entertained.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And then after primary school.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: you know, you take the common entrance examination.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And most people ended up staying in eastern Nigeria.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So FGGC or Wary was
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: the popular place a lot of girls from my elementary school went to.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: But I ended up, as did my sisters, going to

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Queen's College in Lagos.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And I think, of course, now that I'm older and I'm looking back and kind

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: of, Thinking about my parents'

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: decisions, especially my mother's decision with my grown up

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: mind, realizing that even back then

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: she wanted us to have a

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: cosmopolitan view of the world because

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Enugu is very homogeneous.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Like, I think in elementary school, everybody was Igbo.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: There was just one person who was Yoruba, and I still remember her

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: name, Sheyi Sangotade, because

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: everybody else was Igbo, and we all spoke Igbo, we were all Christian.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: But Nigeria is not that homogeneous.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And I think my mother wanted us to because she had gone

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: abroad for her post-doc.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And I think on some level she wanted us to kind of get this

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: concept of how complex life is

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: and the beauty in its complexity and difference.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And so we made this, she made this

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: choice that was very rare for her children to go to Lagos

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: for secondary school, which is where I spend the next 6 years

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: of my life.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And of course, in GC, you meet people from all over the country

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: it really was my 1st culture shock.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: A lot of people think the culture shock of my life.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: was coming to America.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: It was a culture shock, but it was not for

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: me as big as going to Lagos.
Emeka Okereke: Hmm.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And then after Lagos, we moved here, again

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: because my mother applied for the green card lottery.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So she was always like dreaming big for us.
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Emeka Okereke: For the listeners, you know, they do not know, but

Emeka Okereke: you come from a family that eventually all of us

Emeka Okereke: in Nigeria, many of us in Nigeria, myself included, eventually

Emeka Okereke: get, you know, got to know, you know, not

Emeka Okereke: just for, you know, it's incredible.

Emeka Okereke: I don't even know who to start with.

Emeka Okereke: whether your father or your mother, you know, to

Emeka Okereke: to start to have this conversation because it's

Emeka Okereke: it's just, it's just mind blowing.

Emeka Okereke: But, I know that we cannot escape that.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: We're gonna go into them.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Uh-huh.

Emeka Okereke: We know properly, eventually.

Emeka Okereke: But I want to already start to ask you.

Emeka Okereke: What is like, you know, being raised by these 2

Emeka Okereke: figures, who are also your parents?

Emeka Okereke: You know, this is as close as you can get, you know.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I know.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: It's so...

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Fascinating because who they are, especially my mother.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: a lot of people got to know her in, what, the

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: late 90s with NAFDAC, but

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: that was late in my life.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: By the time she got NAFDAC.
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I think I had maybe was just about to leave the country or

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: it was even after I had.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I think it was after I had left.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: The thing with having a parent who is popular

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: is that there is a version that everybody sees

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: but it's very different from the version you know.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And sorry, I know we're going to come to this later, but I just wanted to touch up on it.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I think that was one of the things that fascinated me with the commission

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: to paint the Obamas because I almost felt like

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: on some level I understood this like there is

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: the person we know publicly, but there is

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: also who people are privately.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And I was thinking of it through the lens of my mom.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And so with them, I wanted in the work to try and

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: get to that, to kind of capture who they

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: are and how we know them publicly, but also get a sense of

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Like who they are when they are relaxed, when they are with their friends

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: when they are with their family.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And I try to do that with the pictures I transferred, like looking

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: for those pictures where they are both very silly

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: in a positive way, they are both very funny.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: They do a lot of joking and I try to touch up on that.

Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So I was thinking of it with my mom.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I think whenever people came to our house and saw her hanging

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: out, they were always surprised at how
Emeka Okereke: Uh-huh.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: funny she was, how relaxed, she loved to goof
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: and just be silly and make everybody laugh.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: But then, of course, outside when she's in work mode.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: People know this like very, strong

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: person, this woman who did not take any nonsense
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: who wanted things done right.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And the 2 existed in the same person.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: You know.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So it was, it was very interesting to see

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: the world get to know my mom

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: or the country get to know my mom, and to some extent

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: the world, but in a different way than I knew her.
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And 2 people were still the same.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: But it was also.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Interesting for me to see another version of her.

Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Because I knew she was a hard worker.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I knew she was incredibly honest.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I knew she had a very clear moral compass

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: but I hadn't quite seen her in

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: a position where she was able to show that

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: off fully.
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: so there were sometimes after, because I

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: went to undergrad twice.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So there were times after my 1st undergrad at Swarthmore

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: College where I went back to Nigeria for a while and

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I got to spend time with her and I was so

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: impressed by how much she worked.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So there were some days I will spend the day with her and will come

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: back home at like 7 and I will be

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: exhausted, then I beg off and go to my room to

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: read or watch something, and she will stay up

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: and she'll be like editing speeches, working on

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: things for two, three, 4 more hours.

Emeka Okereke: Wow.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And I remember my sister and I would just be like, how is she doing this?

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: like we are decades younger than her.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: we are exhausted.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So it was also fascinating for me to

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: gain like a whole new respect for my mother and
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: just in this

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: It wasn't a new side.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I always knew it was there.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: She's a hard worker.
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: But to see it turned up to a 10 in a
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: way I didn't even know was possible for somebody

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: to do in all honesty.

Emeka Okereke: It's incredible.

Emeka Okereke: We’re gonna—I feel like I just don’t want to jump into that.

Emeka Okereke: You know, without, without, 1st of all, like grounding

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: this in your own, you know, reality and process
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yeah.

Emeka Okereke: you grew up with you have your siblings, you grew up with

Emeka Okereke: there's also your dad.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: You know, he was more quiet, in most world, but he
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yes. There, yeah.

Emeka Okereke: was also very intense, you know, built

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: this new hospital in Enugu, and
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Mm-hmm.

Emeka Okereke: you know, ran it, was very, you

Emeka Okereke: know, magnanimous in his approach to

Emeka Okereke: these are, these are stories that

Emeka Okereke: It's just so inspiring because we know

Emeka Okereke: we all come from Nigeria and you, and the central

Emeka Okereke: thing is always, how can we make the country better for everyone, right?

Emeka Okereke: And then you hear stories like this, you know, so what

Emeka Okereke: was it like growing up under both of them, but also with your siblings?

Emeka Okereke: Was it like heavy?

Emeka Okereke: Or do you feel like there was a lot of responsibility and there

Emeka Okereke: was a lot of expectation on you, pushing

Emeka Okereke: you know, I'm going is like

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: you know, is that what fed into
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Oh, no, no, yeah.

Emeka Okereke: your kind of, you know, work ethic as well

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: you're diligent for your work and things like that, you know.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yes.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yes, and I would say I'm about my father, thank you so much for

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: touching up on him.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Like he, something I wanted to mention about him is he was incredibly generous.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: so something, I kind of working a little bit

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: here and there, my work is just how

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: much Catholicism was around my life when I was growing up.
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I feel like so many of our family friends were priests.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: like when my mom's funeral happened, Cardinal Arinze

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: came from Rome, to lead the mass and he's
Emeka Okereke: Uh-huh.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: the highest ranking African cardinal in the world.
Emeka Okereke: Uh-huh.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: He's a royas ankin African in the Vatican.
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: But he's a family friend.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And it wasn't until I became an adult.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I had that, oh, moment where I realized why

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: we knew so many priests.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: But Bigard Memorial Seminary in eastern Nigeria is

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: where a lot of priests in Nigeria were trained

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: especially a lot of priests in eastern Nigeria, and

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: my whole life.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: my dad used to give free medical treatments

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: to Bigard.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And so that was why we need so many praise and I didn't know.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I mean, I knew we were always going to Bigard than he was going to Bigard

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: but I didn't know why till I became an adult.
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Like, oh, he was their doctor for free for decades of his life.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: My mom was pretty laid back.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: And then.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: My dad had very.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: It wasn't straight in that, like, there was no consequence

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: to not doing well, but we were very encouraged

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: to work our hardest and try our best.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: you know, it was different times.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So, the family, the way people

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: know my family is very different from how we grew up.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: so when we went growing up, things were tight.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: so we only went out to eat, like going

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: out, we went to this place in Enugu called Genesis Burger.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: We then went to Genesis Burger.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: We went to riot Chinese restaurants, but we really only went after.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: cards.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: If everybody did well, we went out.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So there was always that kind of like trying to work hard, so

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: we go to Raya.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: But I think something also made a difference is my, the oldest

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Ijeoma, was just, I mean, she is incredibly brilliant

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: just, I went to Queen's College, like, 5

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: years after her.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: She was that students that, Many years

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: after she left, all the teachers still talked about her
Emeka Okereke: Wow.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: that kind of brilliance.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So in JAMB, she had one of the top 3 results in Nigeria.
Emeka Okereke: Eh.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: That.

Emeka Okereke: Okay.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So I think because she was a number, you know that
Emeka Okereke: We know we know that.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I mean, I think I did not do well in JAMB.
Emeka Okereke: You know, there's a gap.

Emeka Okereke: She gaps everyone.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: Everyone is like, don't even try.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yeah.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And so I, Exactly.
Emeka Okereke: The person who comes 2nd is like, yeah.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So, I mean, she really was a once in a generation.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I think because she was the 1st she was like a piss setter.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So she set the tone for all of us.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I think my parents didn't need to do much.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I think on our own, we all wanted to not match

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: her, but she showed us how to work hard and

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: how to push ourselves.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And of course, like also within the class.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: you know, they do like, Rankings

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: like, you know, who came 1st, who came 2nd, who came third.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So I think there was also internal competition between me and my friends.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: because my really good friend, Ebele, was very smart

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: so it was always like, You didn't want, yeah.
Emeka Okereke: So, so did you, do you have, like, a lot of smart people around you?

Emeka Okereke: Is it like that then where you say you surround yourself with only brilliant ones?

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: No, I didn't, I didn't choose it.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I mean, there were things they did that I don't

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: agree with, which is the way the

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: the grades were organized.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I don't know if they did that in your school, but in my

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: school there was like A, B, C, D, E.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So primary, one A, one B, one, C, one day, and 2

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: A, 2 B, and then they took like the 1st

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: 50 people and put them in A, then the next in B, then the

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: next in C, which I don't agree with looking back.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: But it created a situation where all the people in your class where.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: in the same grade, like

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: performance brackets as you.

Emeka Okereke: Yeah.

Emeka Okereke: It's so interesting.

Emeka Okereke: But what was it like, you know, with your, besides all of the achievements

Emeka Okereke: and, you know, getting things done?

Emeka Okereke: Or was it like the relationship between you and your parents?

Emeka Okereke: How are they towards you, in terms of

Emeka Okereke: on the side of, I say

Emeka Okereke: would they say, love, affection, communication

Emeka Okereke: because, you know, I

Emeka Okereke: grew up also, I grew up in Aba, you know, under my parents and

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: and we know it doesn't come, you
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Mhm.

Emeka Okereke: know, that's easy for you to have like a direct

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: relationship with, with your, with your parents.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yes.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: You know, it's like, go and sit down there, you know?
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Oh, no.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: And then there's a corner.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Oh.

Emeka Okereke: There's always like a, almost like a gap between

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: it's known.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yeah, there were.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: They were very different in their approach.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: My mom was very affectionate, very funny.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I mean, it's hard to adequately

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: capture how she was as a mom.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Like, silly doesn't explain it.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Like, she really will go out of her way to make this, like

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: nonsensical whooping sounds to make us laugh.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Like just say ridiculous things.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yeah, I felt like she really, I can't explain.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I really can't explain it, but it was always a joy to be around.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Like if she was, if she was on the bed and we were all

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: around her, we'll all be laughing.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Like she was even funny when she didn't try.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: She would just like release this like one sentence

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: in Igbo and everybody just like falling over laughing.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And my dad was more different.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I think his was more the way he showed affection was in conversations.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So looking back, it's something I've mentioned

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: so talked about with people is how, you know, the

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: equivalent of dinner conversations, like the conversations we'll have as

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: we're driving to the village or we're driving to, you know

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: occa for a wedding or some or some New Yam

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: festival or wherever we're going.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: A lot of the conversations where about like knowledge.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I don't know how to explain it.
Emeka Okereke: Yeah.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: But, you know, you've been driving and there'll be a lowering width.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: You know how the lorries have the dirty, the dirty gas coming

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: out from the exhaust and we'll say like, okay
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: what is that gas coming out from the exhaust and why is it bad for you?

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And then we all kind of, and then he'll like explain things to us.
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Which sometimes you kind of roll your eye like, oh my goodness

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: this is annoying.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: But then what happened is when I was in undergrad

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: at Swarthmore, I took a bio, you know, you take the intro

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: to biology, bio one, and bio 2.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And I remember being in that class and they're teaching all these things like

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: the circulatory system and all these systems
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: in your body and I just had this moment of, I thought

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: everybody knew, like for me, that was just common general knowledge.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Because that's like what we talked about growing up.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And I just realized like, this is not like stuff people know the

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: way it's like, I don't know, the sun rises from the eastern

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: sets in the West.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Like, you don't know how this system works.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: You don't know how this works, but you don't know what this gas does to you.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And I just realized it was, so it was

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: not school, but he just always was challenging

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: us in terms of wanting us to learn, but

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: not in a way of like, I want you to be the best, just more like

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: he was very fascinated by knowledge.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: something about my dad.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I don't think people know is he was a lifelong learner.
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So even though we didn't have

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Like a lot of extra rooms in the house we grew up in, we

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: had a library, which is something I've maintained now where I live.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I just, I have a space that is for reading.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: It's filled with books and it just, and

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: just kind of cultivates in the people who live in

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: that space that books are important.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: It's a lovely thing.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: He would go there, like every weekend he will be in his

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: library, reading up medical journals

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: reading up different things, and we had our own books in there.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: so he was always some, he was somebody who was always interested in learning.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I think he enjoyed sharing

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: that knowledge with us.

Emeka Okereke: I also picked up that part of how you started drawing was

Emeka Okereke: also, through the magazine

Emeka Okereke: subscriptions he had.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Exactly.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So because he had all these books and I

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: was not a big reader for a while, but I

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: liked to look at them.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So I actually have vivid memories of going to the study

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: the library, and picking out all like

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I remember he had this one book that was called Atlas of Diseases.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And for some reason, I was very, I know, I know it
Emeka Okereke: Wow.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: makes no, but I will pull it out and I will, like, I will climb

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: under the table, his desk.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And I'll just sit down and look at the images and
Emeka Okereke: Wow.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: and he used to subscribe.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: He like he used to buy every time it came out Time magazine

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: and Newsweek.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So sometimes when there was a new one, I will get

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: it and like look through and if there was a picture I liked, I

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: will find a blank piece of paper and I would try to copy it.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So I actually did like a, I did a drawing of Naomi Campbell.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I didn't know who she was.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I was like eight, but I did a drawing, and I did a drawing
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: of Leonardo DiCaprio.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Those 2 I remember and I've tried to track them.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I can't find them.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: They are gone.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: but that was like something that was very

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: early for me in terms of just realizing I like to draw.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: but something I also like to do in that space was

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: looking at the books for kids.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: you know, it's like as it goes to school, that kind of stuff
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: the Macmillan readers, they always had drawings in them

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: and they were really beautiful illustrations.
Emeka Okereke: Mm

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And some of them actually, some

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: of them were dumbed by, like, known artists.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So I think.
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: The Passport of Mallam Ilia had this woodcuts in it

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: but some of them were done by recognized artists.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I didn't know it then.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: But, I think this one An African Night’s Entertainment.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: The illustrations were done by Bruce Onobrakpeya.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: Wow.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: so but then I just know that I like to sit down and look at this.
Emeka Okereke: Wow, wow.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I don't know if you remember winners, the winners series.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: They will have like drawings inside

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: depicting the scenes that was happening.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So, you know, it's like we had books from abroad, the

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Cinderellas and the fairy tales, but

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: there was something I found very fascinating about

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: looking at pictures in books, and

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: it's a picture of, you know, like, Ali

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: climbing a mango tree, and I recognize

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: it because I had the experience of climbing the fruit tree
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: in my neighbor's yard, and they
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: those are something that stayed with me, like these are
Emeka Okereke: Yeah.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Illustrations.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I know.

Emeka Okereke: Uh-huh.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And even that experience carried on to school.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I don't know if you'll use the Macmillan English textbooks
Emeka Okereke: Yeah, yeah.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: but I just remember I will be in class just.
Emeka Okereke: Yeah.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Taking in those drawings because there were drawings
Emeka Okereke: Yeah.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: that were sourced from Nigerian life.
Emeka Okereke: Yeah.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: People going to the market, people walking to school with

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: their school uniforms, people trying to

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: get on a lorry.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: People, playing soccer during break at school.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: And now that you're saying all of this now
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So they just stayed with them.

Emeka Okereke: begin to see actually how that very much relates to

Emeka Okereke: literally.

Emeka Okereke: Wow.

Emeka Okereke: interesting.

Emeka Okereke: This is a very, very powerful, you know

Emeka Okereke: reference to make, because

Emeka Okereke: When we look at your work and the way it is already

Emeka Okereke: We can say, yes, it has its own aesthetics and everything.

Emeka Okereke: But it's making a very powerful reference.

Emeka Okereke: And that reference goes all the way back, you know, you're saying it in

Emeka Okereke: the textbook, but those textbooks also go all the way back to all of those

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: you know, on HR market pamphlets, they will make you.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yes.

Emeka Okereke: You know, and it's just incredible

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: you know, and I'm excited for us to enter, enter
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yeah, and I tell you.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: that space as we talk about, about the work going forward.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yeah.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: Now that she has, because as I'm looking at your work
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Oh

Emeka Okereke: I say, what is happening here, it's, is

Emeka Okereke: is incredible because, You

Emeka Okereke: you don't see, you don't see Nigerian artists

Emeka Okereke: who are really like honing into this.

Emeka Okereke: It's not just the reference, but also probing the aesthetics of it.

Emeka Okereke: Really, like, saying, I'm making this reference

Emeka Okereke: but also it has anesthetics to it.

Emeka Okereke: It has this form.

Emeka Okereke: There is something that I'm seeing.

Emeka Okereke: It's as if obviously your dad was

Emeka Okereke: not buying, you know, the magazines for the images and that.

Emeka Okereke: But you, when you go there, you see something else.

Emeka Okereke: You see a whole order.

Emeka Okereke: But then that leads me to want to ask you then.

Emeka Okereke: In hindsight.

Emeka Okereke: Have you always known you wanted to do art?

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: Before you even came to the US.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Oh, No.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Absolutely not.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: No, it was not.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: It wasn't and no, I can't say no enough.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I wasn't, you know, something like, oh, I kind of saw thought

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I hold, but I knew I couldn't.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I'm trying to think of how to explain how much of a no it was.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: Wow.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: It was not a part of my existence.

Emeka Okereke: At all.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: No, because I didn't even know the concept of

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: this could be a thing you did.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: Hmm.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And when I say that I want to clarify, it's not because there were not

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: artists in Nigeria, I mean, I'm looking at these beautiful illustrations.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I mentioned Bruce Onobrakpeya, I saw out

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: where it just was not part of my immediate family.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Again, my mom had a PhD in pharmacology and therapeutics.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: My dad was a surgeon.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: We were like a science family.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: dinner table discussion was about

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: The body and science.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So and the environment and things like that.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: so it just was, I didn't know anybody, it.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: No, it wasn't.

Emeka Okereke: Wow.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: It will be like somebody back then saying, did you

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: want to be an influence?

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I wasn't a thing.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So it was a thing then, but it wasn't a thing in my

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: understanding of life and the world.

Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And so my sister, my younger sister, is

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: every time we get together with chat, you know how you get together with your friends

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: or your siblings that you're all talking about growing up and sharing

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: stories and laughing, whenever we have that in my family

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: my younger sister will go on and on about how creative

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I was as a child.
Emeka Okereke: really

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I don't think I remember as much as she did
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: but she talks a lot about how much I drew

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: and made and I do.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I remember it, not as vividly as she does.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: But again, talking of how the family, my

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: family, when people get got to know them was very, we

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: were, maybe like solidly middle class, sometimes

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: falling a little bit below middle clean or like on the lower end.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Of middle class when I was growing up.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: We did not have a lot of toys.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Because it's like, The money you have is for essentials.
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Like the one memory we all have is this one time.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Again, it was after a report card.
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm, mhm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Everybody had done well.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Looking back now, and I'm like, 0 god, my mom must have done a deal, you

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: know how, like in Nigeria, everybody has a side hustle.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Like you're a professor, but you also have something you're working on.
Emeka Okereke: Yeah, yeah.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I mean, she did it all.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: She did selling plastic bags

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: and like she was always like working on a business.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: she had one that was like, Even like
Emeka Okereke: Wow, wow, even as a professor. And having.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: it's a perfect life.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: A lot of people had to have another job because you
Emeka Okereke: Yeah. Mm-hmm, Mm-hmm.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: remember there was strike, you didn't know when you would be paid and all that stuff.
Emeka Okereke: Exactly, exactly.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: so it wasn't a reliable income.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So something must have come up.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: because she took us to a store
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Leventis, in Enugu.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And I mean, this is in everybody's memory in our family because

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: it was, you know, when something is unlike anything that has happened.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Leventis is a store, we don't even enter.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: It's too expensive.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: It's marked up because if you want something cheap, you go to the market.
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: People let people, it's not like an event is for people who don't know, they

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: will buy from the market and then they mark it up because you're

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: paying for the luxury of not having to go to the
Emeka Okereke: Yeah, for the class.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: hot open market and bargain and yeah, you're

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: paying for the comforts and the class.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: Yeah.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So it's like, why would we shop at Leventis?

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: It's extra money down the drain.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: But she took us to Leventis and she said you can all pick

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: one thing.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Whatever you want.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: You know, and you're like, what is going on?

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And we all remember this.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: My brother got a toy called my secret police car

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: and I've actually looked it up online and I thought it's still, you

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: can still get it on eBay.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I got a motorcycle.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: There was like this person wearing a tan outfit

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: on the motorcycle.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: It was like battery operated with a lung antenna on the back.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: My sister, my older sister got a book.

Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: Yeah,.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: was just like, oh, Soto, why would you get a book?

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And I don't remember what my youngest sister got.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I think she got a doll.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: But anyway, those were like the only toys we really remember.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: In our memory, other than like, you know, Dolby bees.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Those plastic dolls that squeak, which I've
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I've put, I've referenced in my work before, and
Emeka Okereke: Uh-huh, uh-huh.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: those ones you get from the market.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Sorry, why am I telling this long story?

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I do a lot of longside stories.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: is that we had to entertain ourselves.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And according to my younger sister, I made a lot of things.
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm, Mm-hmm.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: so like once she really liked dolls.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: so I would make dolls for her using like

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: matchboxes and ping pong balls and like I

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: would stick like con husks for the hair.

Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: but you know, it's like how you see those people like, we make our own cars.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: You know how people make those cars and they use a stick to push it.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: so I think because There

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: wasn't a lot for us to play with.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: It made us very resourceful and very creative.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So because like we had to entertain ourselves.
Emeka Okereke: Uh-huh, uh-huh.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So it's funny because now when I have kids and they have all these toys

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: and they still say, I'm bored and I've become that annoying person
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I was like, when I was young, I had
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: one toy and I was never bored because

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: you just went outside.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: We had an unfinished house behind our house and

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: we like one out there, we played cooking, but we did

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: it, we just like empty.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Cans, you know, like when you finished tomato paste, the cans anyway.
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And stones and steaks and we crush up hibiscus to make okra soup.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So I think there is a resourcefulness or

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: just making do with the things around you that was

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: cultivated from my childhood.

Emeka Okereke: It's incredible because also this is very much at the core of

Emeka Okereke: you know, how your mother, you know, thought.

Emeka Okereke: There was a video of her talking about something like that.

Emeka Okereke: The line of Our wants

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: are many, but our needs.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yes.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Few.
Emeka Okereke: A few, you know.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I think of that a lot.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I think of that a lot, like you don't need much.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And I mean, I will still treat myself to things, but like if when I can't

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: have something, that is something that stays with me and something

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I do mention to my family, my kids.
Emeka Okereke: Yeah.

Emeka Okereke: Yeah, because in that mindset already, you become very resourceful

Emeka Okereke: and you become very creative, but I also wonder if

Emeka Okereke: it is a very Igbo thin because we all

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: came out from after the war, you know?
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yes.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I was also, I was about to mention it was probably more amplified

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: for her because she lived through a war.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And her family was, her dad was very wealthy
Emeka Okereke: Yeah, exactly.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: in, nothing Nigerian, I believe, Macode.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And when the war happened, you literally, it's like what

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: we're seeing in Gaza, you just have to pack what fits in a box and run.

Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And so they left everything.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: He had a hotel there, they've never been able to get back.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: you know, people lost all the property they left behind.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And they just had to pack the things they could fit in a box and

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: run east.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And I think, again, you know how you understand your parents

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: more when you grow up?

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: because again, they did not talk about the war a lot.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: They will sometimes, but they didn't

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: just sit down and talk about the war, but it always slipped in.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: You know, say it's blah, blah, blah, blah, before the war.
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Something something after the war.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: It was such a big marker of time in their lives.
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm. Wow.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: But again, then being an adult and looking back at things

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: with new eyes, and my

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: sister, my younger sister, Chidiogo, wrote a book about my mom.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: and the amazing thing she did is

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: that she spent months, pretty much

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: like a year +2 years, talking to

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: everybody who knew my mom from

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: like when she was young to when she died who was still alive

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: which is so incredible to capture things
Emeka Okereke: Wow, I love to read that booker.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: before people died.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: It's called I Am Because We Are.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: It's wonderful.
Emeka Okereke: Yeah.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: but then through hard talking to

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: people, I still learning all these stories that I did not know.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: and it was like when you hear some stories, it just

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Things fall into place.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I felt like I understood my mom.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: better, like something she was very strict about

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: is fairness, which that's part

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: of how that people saw.
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: She was very into fairness.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: She did not play with people's money.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And that was something like she instilled in us, like honesty

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: but also pay people for their labor and pay people on time.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Like, whenever she came and like
Emeka Okereke: Yeah. Wow.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: somebody was like, you know, Taylor is somewhere, she'll always say, have you paid them?

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: Mm
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And it was like, why didn't that?

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: She was always like, and you know what?

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: you like, why?

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I didn't think of it, but, oh, this is why she was like that.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: But she was very into like, have you paid them?

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And she was like, and she was, I like what I liked about her.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: She will always impact.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: She'll always share life advice, but not in a preach way.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: You know, she'll just kind of like slip it in there.
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: She's chatting with you and you realize, oh, these are forming
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: all these things helped form who you are.

Emeka Okereke: Yeah.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Or something you should always talk about is, oh, sometimes people who have

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: will, it's not that they won't pay but they take their time to pay.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: But what you don't think of is that the person you've not paid might

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: not have the luxury of waiting for that payment.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: Yeah, exactly.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So she will always say like, pay them when it's due.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: Yeah.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Like, it might not be much for you, but that might be their meal.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: That might be their rent.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: You can't, and that's one of those things I've never forgotten, like.

Emeka Okereke: Wow.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Do wait.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: You might be like, ah, it's 109, you know, it's

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: it's 100, you know, and next week will be fine.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: It's not for you to decide.

Emeka Okereke: Exactly.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Like she was very strict.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So it's like there were little things like she just will not budge on.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: but then the reason why I bring it up is one of the stories.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: My sister had uncovered is that during the war, my

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: mom and her sister, went

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: you know, they ran to the east and at some point they wanted to make money to

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: help their family out, so they walked for

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I mean, it was like they worked for days because they heard there was

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: this farm where you could work and get paid.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And they worked for days, they got there, they worked for

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: like a week and at the end of the week or so the man did not pay them.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And I think I, you know, it's like, it's not a big deal

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: to you, but this was huge for them.
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I mean, it was like the work, the time, the labor, and

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I don't know, but I'm guessing stuff like that was so formative for her.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And something else my sister brought up in the book

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: which was like, 0 yeah, that is so true, is my mom was very

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: sensitive to people eating.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Like if we went to an event, she always made sure

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: especially when she was in government, so she

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: she had like a driver and security, if she went

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: somewhere, you know how like you go into an event and your security would
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: put you outside and you might be in there for hours, she
Emeka Okereke: Yeah.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: always made sure dig got food.
Emeka Okereke: Good.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: But it wasn't just like randomly being like, oh, eat.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: She would go in, she would tell the host, like, please

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: go get them food and they're like, 20 minutes later she

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: would check, like, did they get food?

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Can somebody go ask them and she will just

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: keep harping on it, like just making sure people were fed.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And something my sister also pointed out, which I looking

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: back, he's like, 0 yeah, it's true.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: It's like my mom could tell when people were hungry.

Emeka Okereke: Wow.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Like sometimes you'll see someone.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I still can't, but apparently there's like, a way you

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: but she'll be like, oh, that person needs food and she'll feed him.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I think that was something that came from living through the war because it

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: was a war where there was a lot of starvation.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: That's the way a lot of those pictures of the starving

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: children in Africa really came from.
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Emeka Okereke: So, in other words, she was really, really sensitive to suffering.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Mm-hmm.
Emeka Okereke: Anyways.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And I think something that was like, That

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: helped from how we should passed on to us is

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: They had all this money.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: They left.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: They went to Eastern Nigeria, and when they got there, they had nothing.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So they really had to live on the hospitality

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: and generosity and goodness of people.

Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So I think it made her realize one, like material

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: things don't matter in the end.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And that was one thing like if you spend time with her, like
Emeka Okereke: Yeah.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: you could not sway her with money.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Like she really understood that like you can't eat money.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: You can't take it when you die.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Like she, you know that knowledge people don't really understand in

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: the grand scheme of stuff, this is not the important stuff.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I am not saying you like people need to survive like people, but
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: at some point the like excess of it.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: Yeah, yeah.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Is beyond.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: That doesn't make any sense.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yeah, it doesn't change anything because they
Emeka Okereke: Yeah. Yeah.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: had it and it didn't save them.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: What actually saved them was community and the generosity of people.
Emeka Okereke: Mm. Mm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And I think something else that also happened is a lot of people that ended up

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: helping them where the people had dad, had helped

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: when he was wealthy.

Emeka Okereke: Wow.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And I think it really helped her understand the

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: importance of, like

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: generosity and helping people out.
Emeka Okereke: Yeah.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I think that's a part of her.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: That was talking again about the public.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: The public, the side people know and decide that

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: people who know how more intimately know.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: People who know how well the one thing they will tell you is

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: like she was incredibly generous.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: And for those who are listening, we are speaking of the
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: No. Oh, yeah.
Emeka Okereke: late Dora Akunyili, and she

Emeka Okereke: was just, a force

Emeka Okereke: you know, you have certain individuals

Emeka Okereke: who just bring a kind of unorthodox

Emeka Okereke: radicalism to what they do in terms of in, you know, integrity.

Emeka Okereke: They don't just speak it.

Emeka Okereke: They just do it.

Emeka Okereke: They do it.

Emeka Okereke: And in a place like Nigeria, you know

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: It's hard.
Emeka Okereke: Yeah, yeah.

Emeka Okereke: I was just thinking that she, I mean, in

Emeka Okereke: her time, she was able to bring that kind of energy

Emeka Okereke: of the, you know, like independent era

Emeka Okereke: you know, or the, you know, pre-independence

Emeka Okereke: fight for that independence

Emeka Okereke: that kind of energy.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: She was able to bring it into the 21st century, basically
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Mm-hmm.
Emeka Okereke: with her fight with, you know, NAVDAK

Emeka Okereke: and all of that.

Emeka Okereke: What you're saying now is not just something that is

Emeka Okereke: within a tiny community, at Nigeria

Emeka Okereke: benefited from that, you know, what she was able to do to

Emeka Okereke: clean up, you know, all of this proliferation of counterfeit

Emeka Okereke: drugs, into the country and everything.

Emeka Okereke: And even when they were, you

Emeka Okereke: know, trying to really, I mean, you were there.

Emeka Okereke: I mean, I have the opportunity to speak with you now.

Emeka Okereke: how are you all feeling about

Emeka Okereke: you know, the pushback she was getting from all

Emeka Okereke: of this, you know, drug cartels and everything.

Emeka Okereke: You know, they were burning down, you know, after dark, they were, they

Emeka Okereke: even try to assassinate her.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Mm-hmm.
Emeka Okereke: You know.

Emeka Okereke: How how are you taking all of that?

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I mean, it was intense, because at this point, I wasn't in the country.

Emeka Okereke: Mhm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So it's just like you're more hearing it and

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: you know, you hear, oh, people said they'll do this, people said they'll do that.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: You know, we're very dramatic people in Nigeria.
Emeka Okereke: Uh-huh.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I'm someone who tends to

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: kind of not believe or give into drama.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So I think a part of me thought like, yeah, people are just talking.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: It's fine.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: You're more worried than you should be.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: but with the assassination attent.

Emeka Okereke: Yo.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: We were with her.

Emeka Okereke: Wow.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: Wow, wow.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And I think that was when I went, oh, okay, I

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: was wrong because it was, I don't know what break

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: it was, but it was doing a break.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So we were, I was back in Nigeria from school.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And it wasn't just me, there were other siblings with me.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So we had gone somewhere and we were driving home

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: and we were in multiple cars.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So the car I was in with my friend, my roommate from college

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: you know, like this person, everybody else, I don't come to Nigeria is not

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: safe, and you wore your eyes like, oh, please, yes.
Emeka Okereke: From from the US, huh?

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I said, no, please, it's fine.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Nothing is going to happen.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And then this weird thing happens on this one trip

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: but we were in the back car.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And we heard the, sorry, now I'm like, the

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: people who are coming here from art are going to learn this whole

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: other part of my history that is maybe like, you
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: know, there's a Nigeria, me and the American me and they are like converging in this podcast.
Emeka Okereke: Yeah.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I always feel like, oh, I feel like I'm like one of those, like when I

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: go back to Nigeria.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I like Superman and Clark Kent, when I come back to Nigeria
Emeka Okereke: Yeah, it.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I change into someone else, because right from the airport
Emeka Okereke: Yeah, exactly.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: people look at my passport and like, Are you related too?

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I'm like, yes, I'm her child.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And it's like a whole new person begins and when I come here, I'm anonymous.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I'm just like Njideka.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: But anyway, so.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So we were driving, she was a number of, but we had kind of

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: you know, how things separate and we're trying to catch up, and

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: we heard sounds, but it's Christmas, you

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: know, there are bangers, there are people shooting for

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: celebrations, so we didn't really know

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: what was going on, and then it was just chaos.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Chaos because they all have walkie-talkies

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: and it was kind of like just go, go, go, like speed
Emeka Okereke: Wow.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: and we're like speeding and so we

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: are trying to piece what happened.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And so the car in front was just telling us like, stuff is going down.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: The car was shut at.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Just don't stop, just speed all the way to the police

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: station, and they were far away ahead of us, like we didn't

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: know what was happening.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So at this point we're just like speeding through.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: We kind of passed by an accident.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I think some an accident happened soon after because of it.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: but then as we're going, we're trying to piece things together

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: so I know my mom's car was shut at.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: But again, it's like you're also thinking like, ah, maybe somebody

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: nearby threw a banger.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Maybe they don't understand what happened.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Maybe it was like a chieftaincy seller.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: But you know, your rational mind is trying to understand

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: what happened.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And it wasn't till we got to the police station that we all just had that like.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Oh my god, moment, because when we got there

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: that's the 1st time we met up with them and her car was there and

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: there was a bullet hole like in the back glass.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: There was a bullet hole Through the back window, so it went through.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And so as we all like came together, we're making sure like everybody's here

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: all the cars made it safely.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: People are trying to figure out what happened like, what was

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: the order, who got separated?

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: How did this car get behind my mom?

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Where did it come from?

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And as we're trying to figure that out, the whole time my

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: mom is like saying my head is itching.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And it's like, there's too much going on for us to pay attention to this.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: People are, you know, you're trying to construct the narrative of what happened here.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I cannot explain how much chaos.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: Wow.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: It was, that's how like, we got, because

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: at that point you're just trying to get to safety.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: It's like, let's get there, we'll figure out what happened.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: so we're like talking

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: trying to figure out like we're like, we don't know.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: We got separated so we're in the back and sadly we were separate.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: We didn't see what happened.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: We didn't know which car it was and how we got there.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And then as we're talking, my mom keeps saying like her head hurts, her head hurts.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I just said, okay, then finally she took her staff of

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: you know, you have like your beautiful scarf.
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And she kept saying like her head itches and it

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: hurts, and finally she asked somebody to take a look

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: at it, and there was a burn.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: it's like a long

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: You know how like when you get burned, how it's dark?
Emeka Okereke: Wow. So the bullet grazed.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And I, yes.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: Yo.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yeah, and I think that's when.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: You know, like everybody just, now I'm getting like goosebumps

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: talking about it because it's like

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: We knew her car was shut at, but I didn't realize the

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: direction, like I thought maybe it was something random.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: They're realizing when we go to the police station.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: No, it was targeting her, the way it went in, and

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: then the moment we saw her head.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Just realizing, Oh my god.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: We did not realize how close it

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: had come to her.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: It burned her scalp.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: It really was like an oblong dark.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: You know, like when you touch something really hot.
Emeka Okereke: Mm

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: it's even more because when it touched something hot

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: it's red before it goes black.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: This one was black dark.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And I think there was just this moment of just like.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: You know when you just feel everybody just like.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Hush.

Emeka Okereke: Yeah.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Like, holy cow.

Emeka Okereke: Wow.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yeah, it was, it was a.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Bizarre.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So I think from that day on, I was like, okay, like

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: It became the very like super real.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: She. Yeah, like she knows what she's saying.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Stop being.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Because I'm someone who tends to shrug

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: things off and I think that was when I realized no, no, like
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm, Mm-hmm.

Emeka Okereke: But what, what, what she was trying to do was completely

Emeka Okereke: disruptive for many

Emeka Okereke: many people who benefited from that.

Emeka Okereke: I mean, it's like, it's like trying to come in now and say you want

Emeka Okereke: to actually bring electricity completely into Nigeria.

Emeka Okereke: Those, those people who are benefiting from setting

Emeka Okereke: generators will not allow you.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yeah, I think I just had a, just it was.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yeah, it was just sad and shocking for me to realize.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: That people worship money so much that they

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: were willing to kill for it, which of course, I think it's life.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: What am I saying?

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: But like, See it so clearly

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: this like you're coming between us and our prophets

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: profits which are killing people that will
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: want to take you out for it.
Emeka Okereke: Which are killing people, which are, you know.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So I feel like there are all these like backstories that are tied in.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I think the reason why my mom would not

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: be swayed from what she wanted to

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: do is that it was a thing that was very close to her heart.
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: her youngest sister

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: who she raised like a daughter, Auntie Nwogo.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I have like very faint memories of her.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: She was diabetic.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And she died, which is like dying from diabetes
Emeka Okereke: Well, well, yeah.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: in your 20s shouldn't happen, but it was because
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: she was taking insulin, but the insulin was not

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: effective because it wasn't insulin.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: People just package.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: A placebo and sell it.
Emeka Okereke: It was fake, yeah, yeah.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: It was fake.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So it wasn't working and she died.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So for her, it was like, how could How

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: can I let somebody keep doing this?

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Like no amount of money is worth doing

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: this to another family and I turn a

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: blind eye because I'm like taking a bribe.
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So it's like her calling for what she was doing was

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: like money could not shake her at all because she
Emeka Okereke: Yeah, it.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: had experienced it in her life.
Emeka Okereke: Yeah.

Emeka Okereke: And she seems like to be this kind of person that when she experiences something viscerally.

Emeka Okereke: Forget it.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: The lesson is, it's done, it's done.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yes.

Emeka Okereke: The next thing now is how do you make sure the next person.

Emeka Okereke: Does not experience the same.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: It's incredible.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Exactly.

Emeka Okereke: Wow, it's incredible.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: Now now we understand.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yeah, I was like, now that I've talked about my family

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I feel like now people can like stop putting things together, but

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: you know, if you're interested to check, if you look at the piece that

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: the Mets has, mother and child.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: the, there's a black and white.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Image, kind of off to the right.

Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Behind me.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: The person in the photo is my grandmother and the baby

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: she's holding is my Auntie Nwogo who died
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: from diabetes.
Emeka Okereke: And so that's the thing.

Emeka Okereke: You were also, you eventually started bringing

Emeka Okereke: making these references strongly now in your work, especially

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: after passing in 2014, right?
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Hmm.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: You started doing more work that reference that.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Mm-hmm.

Emeka Okereke: But we're going to come to that.

Emeka Okereke: I want us to go quickly to

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: you move into the US when you're 16.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Okay.

Emeka Okereke: And, Like the circumstances

Emeka Okereke: surrounding that and how it felt, and

Emeka Okereke: also, we take it from there.

Emeka Okereke: We really want to get into that moment, that very moment when

Emeka Okereke: it became art for you know.

Emeka Okereke: Like, what happened?

Emeka Okereke: How did this, I, even gets more intriguing when you say

Emeka Okereke: before, there was nothing at all.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: So we want to know exactly when.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: It really wasn't.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yeah, when?
Emeka Okereke: Yeah.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So when I went to QC, I did take drawing classes.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So remember in SS, senior secondary school, you

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: can do, I think it was like you could do art or

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: you can do music.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I can't remember what the, so I did art, but it was a lot
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: of, like, we did tie dye, we did

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: We did ceramics and a lot of drawing and poster making.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: Yeah, that's Queen's College in Lagos.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So I, yes, Queens College, and we would go.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: There was a museum we used to go to in

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I can't remember where it was.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: It was like a white building, but at that point

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I still learning about like Yusuf Grillo, Ladi Kwali

Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: 277, a lot

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: of Nigerian artists.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So at that point, I knew there was like this thing you could deal with your

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: life and art, and I had gone to institutions and I had seen people doing it.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: But again, for me, it wasn't it.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: In senior secondary school, you can go the sciences or the arts.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So I was a science person.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So I did fickenbach, physics chemistry biology
Emeka Okereke: Yeah, huh. Yeah.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: that whole track, which is the pre-med track.

Emeka Okereke: Yeah.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: so I was a ficamba person.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I finished, when, when
Emeka Okereke: Wow.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I started senior secondary school, my oldest sister was already in America.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: so she had got a scholarship to come here.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: My mother applied for the green card lottery.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I didn't know what this was, and then she got it.
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And if you get it, all your children get a green card.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So because she got it, we all became permanent residence
Emeka Okereke: Wow.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: and that meant we could, we had permission to live in America.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: Wow, wow.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And just like a lock.

Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So after QC, I moved to the United States and

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: then just from the knowledge of my sister who was already here

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: and my brother who had done this 2 years before me.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I had learned that just the Nigerian education

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: system, which is follows the British system because we

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: used to be a British colony.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: They're like all these interwoven things, it
Emeka Okereke: Yeah.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: doesn't perfectly map onto the American system.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And so what my brother had advised was that I moved with my sister.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I skipped primary five, so I ended up being in the same class

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: with my sister from GSS

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: one, junior secondary school one till we finished secondary school.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So we moved together.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So what my brother said is instead of moving here and

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: going straight to college.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Come and take a year off.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Then in that year off, you kind of study for the SATs

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: you understand because we did everything ourselves, my sister and I.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I'm talking like working on doing our college applications

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: filling out all the forms, filling out our financial aids

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: filling out the essays, everything.
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Like, I look back and I can't, I

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: was like, oh, we're so responsible for so much

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: at such a young age.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: we were living alone in an apartment in Philadelphia

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: but my oldest sister was down the road.
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Like a few blocks away.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: so my brother said, come here.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: kind of understand the system, get used to the country.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: study for your SATs, kind of get a feel

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: for how you apply for colleges, and something I think

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: you should do in that year is take classes at the

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: community college of Philadelphia, which is an incredible institution.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: In Philadelphia, incredibly affordable, like I am

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: a lifelong supporter of community colleges.
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Really, I had a wonderful experience.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So we went to CCP.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And so the 1st semester I was at

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: CCP, again, I'm at this point thinking, I'm going to medical school.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And my parents did not force me.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: They were very happy about it.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: They were very encouraging, but I genuinely love

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: research, which, hello, I still do

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: like I love research, I love doing deep dives.
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I love understanding how things work

Emeka Okereke: Yeah.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Like, Last week, I had a

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: question about, you remember?

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Sorry, I go on tangents.
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Remember fruit trees in Nigeria?

Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm, mhm, mhm.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: You know the trees we call fruit trees?
Emeka Okereke: Yeah, the fruit, yeah.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: The one that has, it doesn't have a skull fruit.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yes.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: With caulifruits, yes.
Emeka Okereke: Yeah, but is that an almond?
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So I had seen it in yet.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Almond, well, it's not a real almond, but it's called Caribbean
Emeka Okereke: Yeah? It's not a real, but yeah, but we call it fruits.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: almond or Indian almond.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: We call it fruits.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: You tell the Nigerian fruit, they know what you're talking about, but I saw it in Mexico.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I was like, 0 my god, we have this in Nigeria, and my
Emeka Okereke: Interesting.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: friend was, and I was telling my friend I will eat it.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I will break the knot inside and eat the thing inside.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And he was telling me that the knot inside is

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: poisonous.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: That it will kill you, but I was like, no, because we ate it, and he was like, no.
Emeka Okereke: Yeah.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I was like, no, we ate it.
Emeka Okereke: Yeah.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So anyway, last week I spent like a whole day.
Emeka Okereke: That was a joy. That was the joy of fruits now.

Emeka Okereke: It's not the outside.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: It's, is to go, take it to the stone and.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I was just curious.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yes.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: but this isn't how I work.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I spend a whole day, like, reading scientific papers.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: On the fruit tree, I like reading all these comparative
Emeka Okereke: Wow.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: studies because I was curious, but it does have

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: it does, it is poisonous, but it's in a quantity

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: that falls below what is dangerous to humans.
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm, Mm-hmm.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: Okay.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: but that's I love, like, by the way, that's who I am.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I will like research things beyond what.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I just needed to know, is this dangerous or not, but I
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: enjoy, and not my dad.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I enjoy learning.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I think I'm like a bootleg
Emeka Okereke: Interesting.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: archivist on my own.
Emeka Okereke: Yeah.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: so anyway, so I was taking

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I knew I was, I wanted to be a doctor and I actually think I would have loved it.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I knew I was creative and I was very good

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: and precise with my hand, so I was thinking like, ooh

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I hope you're very good, like, plastic surgeon to reconstruct

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: like, cranofacial, like, big

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: trauma and to, like, make it perfect and try my best to

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: like, I'm very good with, like, symmetry and figuring out how.
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So that was my mind.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I wanted to be like, maybe plastic surgery

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: to reconstruct facial trauma.

Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: so when I was at the CCP

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I will, You know, I was thinking of, Knowledge

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: that isn't common for me based on where I came.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And that's why I'll never say, like, I'm never that person that

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: you'll say, oh, I've not read this book.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I'd be like, what?

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Youve not read that?

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Because I feel like, you know, people have different experiences.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So coming from Nigeria, I had done literature

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: but the books I read are not the books that had been read here.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So there are books here that are almost everybody has read that's

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: like kind of standard text, but I hadn't read them because it was not my curriculum.
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So I wanted to kind of have that knowledge.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So I took a literature class.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: You know, where you're reading the American classics, like, I
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: don't know, catching the ride?
Emeka Okereke: Yeah.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: That kind of stuff.

Emeka Okereke: Yeah.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: the Great Gatsby?
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I had never heard of that growing up, like, that's how

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: much it was not my world.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I think because I've grown out in 2 places, you realize people

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: don't get the concept of like there are very few things that are universal knowledge.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: yeah, Great Gatsby was not.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: It did not make it to my part of Nigeria.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: It probably made it to some parts.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: so I took a literature class.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I took a calculus class because

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: in kissing, we did further math, but it wasn't always perfectly the same.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I took an American history class

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: again, the history I knew was not from here.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And then I had one more class.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And I felt like my schedule was pretty full.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I wanted something light, so I took

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: an oil painting class with this wonderful professor called Jeff Reed.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And that was my 1st painting class.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: just like learning how to mix the oil paint and linseed

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: oil and using a canvas, and I really liked it, and you know, it was like, I did.
Emeka Okereke: Look at me even being happy now, I think oil painting.

Emeka Okereke: I'm getting excited.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: so I really, I really liked it and I excelled at it.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I you know, I'm human.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: People, we happy when we excel at things.
Emeka Okereke: Yeah.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: We like that cats on the back.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: I'm like, so it was just that accident of, you
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And so.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: know, just going, ah, that's that's what's giving us
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yes. Like I want an easy class.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: you know, injideka now, the way we know.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Oh.

Emeka Okereke: Okay, please go ahead.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: so I liked it so much.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I took the same class with the same professor the

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: next semester, and that semester was when I

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: was applying to schools, and in my mind, I had only

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: thought of applying to Penn State because my brother was there.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Penn, because my oldest sister was there and

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Johns Hopkins, because I wanted to be a doctor and it was the

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: highest ranked medical school in the country

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: and I hadn't even thought of anywhere else.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Looking back, I'm like, Njideka, you should have expanded your application.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: What if you didn't get into any?

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: but as we were, I was talking, because my sister was

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: also in this class, the painting class.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So as we were talking to the professor one day, just he was so kind

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: like always checking up on us.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: so he was like, oh, how is the application going and we

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: told him like, oh, we're applying here, here, here.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And then he kind of said, it's so fascinating

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: how people can like know you and see you before you know yourself.
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: But he said something I just, like, based on what I know about you.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I think you really will like this school called Swarthmore.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: Uh-huh.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I had never heard of it.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And he said, my really good friend is in charge of the art department.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So I was like, okay, so then I went back, I started doing research because

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: you could go to the free library of Philadelphia.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: They had sections on college applications.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: There are like books that have information on every school.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So I looked at it.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: It sounded fascinating.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I found out they had like an open student day to come and visit.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So I took the train on my own.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Like, took the train, went to Swarthmore, walked

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: around the campus, and I found the art department

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: and I walked into it.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I hadn't told this guy, Randall Exon, that I was coming.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I just thought, hey, let me walk in.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And as I was walking, I saw his office.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I thought, hey, let me knock.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And I knocked and he was there.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And, you know, I came in.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I was like, oh, you don't know me.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I'm looking around, but I'm taking a class with your friend, Jeff Reed

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: that's coming used to college and I said, 0 my God, come in.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And I went into his office and we ended up chatting for a long time.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And I just thought, I want to come to this school.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: You failed it that way right away.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So looking, yeah, but looking back, I'm like, 0 God, do I like attention?

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Did Jeff Reed see this before I did?

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I was like, 0 god, do I?

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Because I really liked how much time I was given.
Emeka Okereke: Oh, yeah, yeah.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And then, yeah, they just felt like, I think I learned

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: with gentleness.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I don't, I get lost in big crowds.
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: again, I didn't see that about myself.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I'm glad Jeff Jeffrey did.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And I just had this feeling of if a teacher could

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: make this much time for me and I wasn't even a student yet.
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Imagine if you were students.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And that's one of Swarthmore’s big selling points is

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: when I was dead, the student to teacher ratio was 8 to one.

Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: so I applied and I got in and I went and

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: then, you know, ran, like Randy and I are still in touch.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: We just exchanged letters some months ago.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: Wow, wow.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: He actually sent me a little painting.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I sent him a print.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Be like, oh, this is mainly because of you.
Emeka Okereke: Wow.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: but so I ended up taking multiple classes with him.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So it was actually in those classes that the shift began to happen.

Emeka Okereke: Okay.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Oh, because the thing with Swarthmore is, it's one of those schools where the

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: the student body is so small that when you

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: take classes, professors invite the class over to their house.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So we went over to his house a few times.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: He has like this lovely house, like out in the woods.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: He has a studio at the back.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And I think that's when...

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I saw the possibility.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Again, I didn't think of it because it was.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So I just thought, oh.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: This is an artist and he's living a fulfilled life.
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm. Exactly.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: so then, so I think once I realized that was true.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: it opened up this part in my head, like this is something you can do.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Because at that point I realized I really loved being

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: in the art building.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Like I will leave my chemistry, lab, homework

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: and go to the app building and paint all night.
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And again, talking of people saying things before you do, I think Randy saw it.
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Because he was kind of like one of the 1st people

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: my dad remembers him from graduation, like my dad remembers
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: him as like, there was that white man who came and told me he thinks

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: he should be an artist.
Emeka Okereke: Mm

Emeka Okereke: Interesting.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Oh, so he was like the one who stays saying it first.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Like, have you considered being an artist?

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I mean, no, I'm not going to be a doctor.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Like, how dare you?

Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: And when you suddenly live in your chemistry, on
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I'm going.

Emeka Okereke: the side and going, to do more painting.

Emeka Okereke: What was the feeling?

Emeka Okereke: Was it more like a feeling of, definitely you

Emeka Okereke: get when you've done something that, I

Emeka Okereke: think I'm now sort of trying to tap into something that you said

Emeka Okereke: in one of the videos that I watch, which is to say that your main anchor

Emeka Okereke: anchor point in everything you do has been consistent, which is

Emeka Okereke: that you always want to make something you are proud of.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yes, I would say, I'm a good student.
Emeka Okereke: Yeah.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I always went back and finished my chemistry work.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I never did not finish.
Emeka Okereke: Oh, yeah.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: No, but I think what it was.
Emeka Okereke: But was it was it the fulfillment of feeling like you look at

Emeka Okereke: what you've done, you feel proud of yourself?

Emeka Okereke: Was that where he started?

Emeka Okereke: Or what was it?

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: No, because I do, I usually when I

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: finish off, I like it, but I do tend to see like how we can be better.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: Uh-huh.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: But I think what it was is the process of it

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: felt effortless.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: Okay.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: You know, it's like sometimes when you're working and you can feel the work of it.
Emeka Okereke: Hmm.

Emeka Okereke: Ah, yes, yes.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: so it's like people who play sports, like

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: My husband, he doesn't anymore because we're all getting older, but he used to play basketball.
Emeka Okereke: Mm. Mm-hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: He can play basketball for 2 hours and he doesn't feel it.

Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: But he runs for 30 minutes and he's aware that he's working.
Emeka Okereke: Uh-huh.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So it's like that feeling of like, you know you're slugging through stuff.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And when I did art, it just felt effortless.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I can work was harder to do as I get older, but I can work all night.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I don't drink coffee and I don't feel tired.
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: Okay.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So it's just that feeling of you can get into something so

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: much that time vanishes and you feel your

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: mind fully engaged.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: you know, that, like, that feeling when you're like in flow
Emeka Okereke: Yeah, yeah.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: and it just feels like your one weight.

Emeka Okereke: Yeah.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Everything around you in a way that it's had to talk about without

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: sounding a bit like woo woo.
Emeka Okereke: Because the thing you're doing is a talking.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yeah, it really is fast like you can't
Emeka Okereke: In and of itself, you know.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: even explain to yourself what's happening.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So I was beginning to feel that.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And so with art, it really was this thought of if

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I can spend my life, like if this is

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: a job and I can, this is what I do, like

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: just being in my studio and painting.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I actually would be very satisfied.

Emeka Okereke: Uh-huh.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I didn't say I had to have multiple conversations with

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: myself because again, like making the choice to do art was

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: giving up on a dream.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I had had my whole life.
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And I think it helped that I had seen someone doing it.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And so for me, I was just like, I, it, like I just

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: felt like I wanted a place to make art.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I wanted something I was proud to make things I was proud of

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: things that will engage, the artists

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I thought of as in my community.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: You know, like when other artists can see that you genuinely

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: are striving and you're not just cutting corners, that

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: was success for me.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And I mean, like after that, as I decided to do art and

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I would have conversations with people, like, you know, aunties and

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: uncles were just like, I think you're making the wrong choice.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Something they always came up with is like, oh, yes

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: because 3 of my older siblings are doctors.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: They're just like, oh, your siblings are going to be doctors and successful

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: like how would you feel?

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Wouldn't you be jealous?

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And it was a conversation I had had with myself and I
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: realized the answer was no, no, like I'm, I, no

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: like, I wouldn't be.
Emeka Okereke: So you have to sit down to have that conversation with yourself about jealousy
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I'll be very happy for them. Yeah, you have to be honest with yourself about
Emeka Okereke: with your siblings, you know, all of them, Yeah.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: yeah, but like what is success for you?

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And for me, honestly, like I am happy with

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: what's happening, but it is unexpected.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: It's icing on the cake.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: It wasn't what success was for me.
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Success was I want to have a space where I can work and

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: the time to make work and I want to make work where

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I feel like I tried my best.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: So, so, so.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And work that makes me want to try again.

Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Emeka Okereke: So you mentioned like having references and seeing

Emeka Okereke: in Arundo and, is

Emeka Okereke: wanting to see a man doing this in the art

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: world, a white man doing this in the art world.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Mm-hmm.
Emeka Okereke: But did you also have refresh?

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: Did you eventually begun to also look at women as well?
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yes. Yes, yeah.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Oh, yeah.
Emeka Okereke: Yeah.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Okay.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: so sorry, I feel like there's so many parts to this story.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So something that was also happening when I was in Swarthmore is

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: because before then art for me was just like, oh

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: you see something, you copy it.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: You draw something that looks nice.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And for at least for me, there wasn't a discussion around it.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So I remember I'll be having a class discussion.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: like, I don't know.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: What do you want me to say?

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: It an apple.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: but once you start having like convent, like, what does it mean?

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Like, you know, funny when I said it was like, what are you asking me?

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: What does it mean?

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: It's an apple on the table.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Like, it was not part of my life to analyze things.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And so, when I was at what

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: my, I took a class called, God, looking back

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: that teacher probably thought, goodness, why is this girl in this class?

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I took a class called

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: iconology and iconography by Michael Cothren.
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I, after the, Obama commission

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I have actually been thinking of tracking down because I'm very into

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: like, go back and thank people who helped you.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And I've been thinking of, because I've done that
Emeka Okereke: Yeah.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: with my young professors who were helpful to me, like being like, hey

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I took this class with you, especially when it's out of the school of art.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Like you might not know that this had a huge difference and

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: change the trajectory of my life, but it did, I'll explain.
Emeka Okereke: Wow, that's amazing. That's amazing.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: But I was thinking of this mic, this professor

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: because I don't even think he clicked, how much

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: his work changed, how I view art

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: till thinking back on it as I worked on that project.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: But it was the class was on icon- iconology and iconography.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I didn't even know what those words were when we started it, but

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: he'll take us to the Philadelphia Museum and we'll look at a lot of Northern

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Renaissance arts, which I still look at a lot.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And, you know, when you look at these paintings and you begin to analyze it.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And I remember like the 1st few weeks in the car just being like, you

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: know, I just feel like just lying.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: You're just lying.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: They're just making stuff up, but then seeing it more where

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: you realize like colors mean things, like placement mean things.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: What does it mean that this hand is placed this way?

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: What does it mean that this person is on this side?

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: What does it mean that this is placed over here?

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: What does it mean that this object is in the background of this painting?

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So really, I think that was the 1st time I realized like

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: 0 my god, these are stories.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And if you have the, if you're

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: able to decode it, Everything means something

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: like a dog in a painting means something.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: This in this work means something, this plant means something.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: so that kind of like stayed with me and then also being around

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: this class and talking about at work.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Going to museums, sitting in front of things and discussing it.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So I think it was also this realization that art was

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: more than I thought it was, that it was actually something
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: that could, like what you're doing, like talking about, like you're

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: invisible bodies, you're talking about the world and migration

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: and history and colonialism and

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: how countries are formed and what it means to maintain those borders.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: All those conversations are coming through

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I've been driven, I've been engaged with and challenged by

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: your creation, your artwork.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And so I think that was the 1st time I really realized like, 0 my

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: god, there was this other thing that I had

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: even thought of, like, this is stuff that can talk

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: about the world and how we exist in it and how
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: things have led to where we are.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: Uh-huh.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So I think at that point there was this new fascination

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: like, oh, there's this whole thing I had even thought of.
Emeka Okereke: Yeah.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And I think from that point, I still looking at things differently.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And you are talking of expanding who I was looking at.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So I think there are a few moments that stand out for me.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So the 1st sadly still a white man, but I would get to the now
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: white people is we had gone to the Philadelphia Museum of Art.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: because this was like 2002

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: their figurative painting was maybe considered dwindling.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I knew that I wanted to work in this way that

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: was considered old and boring

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: but I felt like something interesting could

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: be done with it, but I didn't know how or even if it was possible.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And I think the 1st moment where I thought, oh, it's possible.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: is we went to the Philadelphia Museum of Arts, and

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: they had a faculty show and there was a

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: painting by this incredible artist called Sidney Goodman.

Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: and that was the 1st time in my life, I remember.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Just like standing in front of a painting.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: where you're just like goosebumps and your mouth

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: is just kind of like half open and you're just in awe.

Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: The other way you can tell this is having an internal effect on you.
Emeka Okereke: Yeah. Like.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: It's beyond, it's really like, it's

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: calling to yours.
Emeka Okereke: Yes, yes.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: You can always explain how, but that's I feel like I could
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: do that, but he's working with the figure.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I can see that he comes from a traditional painting

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: but he's using it in a different way that felt very of the time.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So that was one and then as I left Swarthmore.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: after I left Swarthmore, I actually ended

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: up majoring in art and majoring in biology

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: so that I could go either way.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I was still thinking maybe med school, maybe not.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So I went to Nigeria for a year.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And I think it was in that year that my mind was made up.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And so you ask other references.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So in that year of my mind being made up, there were

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: things that made up my mind for me, but they were actually not artists.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I will get to the artist later on.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: But I don't know if you remember 2004

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: 2005 in Nigeria.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: It really was, or maybe it was just, I hadn't been

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I had, I used to come back for Briggs, but I hadn't been in Nigeria

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: for an extended time till then, from when

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I left in 99.

Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And it felt like from 99 to 2004.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: The Nigeria I came back to.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Was, to me, markedly different.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Because when I left QC.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Like, for instance, if you went to a party, everybody

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: was playing American music or British music.
Emeka Okereke: Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: It was about Mariah Carey, the Spice Girls.
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: But now you have a party in Nigeria.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: It's all Afrobeats, like, it really was
Emeka Okereke: Yes, by the time you came back.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: a different world.

Emeka Okereke: By the time you came back, 2 phase had released

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: his 1st album, which, by the way, I like to always
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: That's right, I thought, yes, yes.

Emeka Okereke: you know, say that, I was photographer who photographed that album, that, yeah.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: I made that, that's grass, that, that album.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Oh my god.

Emeka Okereke: That's two-face album that was

Emeka Okereke: like a national anthem everywhere on the street.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: I was, I was the photographer behind that cover.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Oh my god.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: You know, so in a, so the
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Oh my god.

Emeka Okereke: 2004 you're referencing, it's very...

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yes, it was, Nollywood was already there, but everything

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: else was just beginning.
Emeka Okereke: It's crazy.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Like, the story I keep telling is we had gone for an

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: event and God, why am I drawing a blank?

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: flavor was there.
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Emeka Okereke: Uh-huh.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Flavor was there himself, kind of like wearing like shorts
Emeka Okereke: Yeah.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: and a shirt and he had like his friends and he was like
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: singing his songs to dignitaries
Emeka Okereke: Yeah.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: who came and his friends will be like clapping to give him the beats.

Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And he was trying to sell his CDs.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: That's how early it was.
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I cannot see flavor now, if I was, like I cannot be

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: in the same room with him.
Emeka Okereke: Yeah.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: He's a global superstar.
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: But back then he was like following, like, I was with

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: my mom's group, and he was like following us and trying to sell his CDs.
Emeka Okereke: Yeah.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: That's how early it was.
Emeka Okereke: Yes, yes.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And I remember us, we got a CD and on the way back

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: we were playing it in the car.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: We had this moment of like, Oh, this is good.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And then nothing quite happened and then I don't know if you know it

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: it kind of went down and then it got re-released and that's when it blew up.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So it was that time.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And I think the thing is, if you've lived outside somewhere and you

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: come back in, you're able to see the difference.
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And I just felt like something was shifting.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: where it felt like when I was in QC.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: It was cool to be jandered.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: It was cool to be like of outside to
Emeka Okereke: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: be connected to outside.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And when I came back, it felt like there was a lot of people looking

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: in, people trying to excavate all traditions
Emeka Okereke: Yeah.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: but make it off now.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Again, this thing I liked in the Sidney Goodman painting.
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: For instance, I always liked Ankara, the

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: tragic, you know, Vlisco type fabrics, and I
Emeka Okereke: Yeah.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: always felt like

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Ankara was seeing, sorry, I know this podcast is getting very long.
Emeka Okereke: No, no, this, I was, we are, we are getting into it.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: People are enjoying it.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: We are getting into that part now really nicely, really nicely.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Okay, okay, it's fine.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: If people want to listen, they listen.
Emeka Okereke: When you begin to talk about, you know, the, you
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yeah, the creative history.
Emeka Okereke: know, what formed your aesthetics, you know, that's where you're going.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yeah.
Emeka Okereke: So please go, go, go.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Okay, perfect.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: But even like as a young person, I always loved the pattern

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Ankara, but it was very like mama-ish.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: It's stuff like grandmothers and mothers will

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: wear because, you know, they saw the poof poof sleeves and the long

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: skirts and just was not something young people wanted.
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And I remember always thinking

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Why don't people take these fabrics and make

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: things that feel like more age appropriate

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: like what if I made like trousers with it?
Emeka Okereke: Uh-huh.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I'll like go to the tailor and try to make like I'll make like a vest.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I'll make, so I was always like kind of trying to figure that out, but

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I think I was not a good designer, but I always had this feeling of
Emeka Okereke: Yeah.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: like, I think there's a market here.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I think this can be made hit.
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: but it's that you will never go for a party like in the

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Nigeria I left wearing Ankara.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: You always wanted to wear like leggings and it was about like stuff you bought abroad.
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So I remember that one year when I was in Nigeria.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: You know how you buy those roadside magazines, which, of

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: course, like has influenced my aesthetics of how I seen pictures.
Emeka Okereke: Yeah. Yeah.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: They're just like pictures everywhere.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And I was looking at that magazine and I saw this

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: picture of a young girl wearing

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: this really lovely short, just like a very

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: nice silhouette.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: It was like folded over at the bottom.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I mean, it looks like something you will buy at Marks and Spencer

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: or something, but it was made with Ankara, which is kind of what I always thought

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: like, oh, I always wanted to do something like this, but I could never design

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: it properly or get it soon properly.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And I thought, 0 my goodness, this is so amazing who did this?

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And I instead trying to figure it out and it was done by

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: someone called Jewel by Lisa.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I got a contact.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I went to Lake.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: When I was in Lagos, I reached out and I went to, See this person.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Again, this was so early that Jewel

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: by Lisa was working out of a living room.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I was only like her living room in her apartment.
Emeka Okereke: Yeah. Uh-huh.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Again, if you followed her, Jewel by Lisa has

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: now been worn by Solange, Thandie Newton, like

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: it's, again, it's that brand has.
Emeka Okereke: Wow. Yeah.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So again, this was really the beginnings of everything.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I'm same thing with literature.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And I think what was happening for me

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: is that I could tell that there was something
Emeka Okereke: Is it?
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: you know, when you feel like, oh, something is shifting
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: almost like I feel the ground underneath me shifting

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: in my generation.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: There is this thing where I was seeing people of my generation

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: like ascertain who they were.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: like, like a confidence was

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: growing, creating this new

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: culture that was based off of cobbling

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: together different things.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: They could find, but also traditional things, but also

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: things from outside because people are consuming things

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: from outside, where this is also the beginning of social

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: media, Facebook started just about

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: when I left.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: We were connected outside world.
Emeka Okereke: Mhm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So I'm seeing all these things come together and there's a new thing

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: coming out and it felt so exciting.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Like you saw it in the music, you know, Afrobeats is

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: referencing rap, but it's also referencing high

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: life, which is traditional.
Emeka Okereke: Yeah.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: It's referencing traditional music.
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: It's referencing reggaeton.
Emeka Okereke: Wow.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: It really is this new form that's coming from different things.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: It's talking about a globalized world, but it's still muted in tradition.
Emeka Okereke: Now, now, it's so interesting now, the kind of analogies you're drawing now.

Emeka Okereke: It's like it's incredible.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: Like, how you are even using Afrobeats
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Well.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: you know, it's like, when, when
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And it's actually, it's like, I was sick. Yeah, so what it is like, I'm seeing what I'm, so it's

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: not, it's not art, but I'm seeing what like, like the

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: thing that makes my brain tickle in these other fields.
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm, Mm-hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: You see what's happening in literature too.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So I think for me, it was that, you know, Chimamanda

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: was just, like, she had just written purple hibiscus
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: her fame was just blowing up at that time.
Emeka Okereke: Thank you.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: She hadn't written The Thing Around Your Neck, Americanah then.
Emeka Okereke: And yet.

Emeka Okereke: And yet, if you read Chimamanda, you realize if you are

Emeka Okereke: a Nigerian or Igbo, reading Chimamanda, you realize that, The

Emeka Okereke: estate is of our work is simply because she's writing, she's

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: bringing that Igbo flavor.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yes, yes, yes.
Emeka Okereke: You know, into, yeah.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: It's very rooted to a place.

Emeka Okereke: Yeah.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: so I just felt like something is happening and it's

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: very exciting.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And you know when you just have that feeling of.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I, not just I want to be part of this, but I think

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: this is like, one or more, for me

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: personally, a more exciting thing to be involved in

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: but also, A

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: place where I felt I could contribute more.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I don't know, it's hard to explain.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Well, I felt like if I did medicine.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: It'll be fine, I'll, hopefully I would have been a good doctor, but it

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: would have been fine, but I felt like, I

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: don't know, this felt like an exciting place.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I wanted to be part of it.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: It just felt like something is happening that I want to be part of the cool kids.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Not quite like that was like something was happening.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I felt was important.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I felt was exciting.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I felt was interesting and I wanted to be a part of it.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And the way I thought of it in my head, visually, was just like, I want to

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: plant my flag with you all over here.
Emeka Okereke: Wow.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: and that was it.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: Wow.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: That was what did it for me.
Emeka Okereke: And you went right into it and

Emeka Okereke: you know, I felt like there was this

Emeka Okereke: you know, prosaic way you went about it, which is going

Emeka Okereke: directly for the, for the, for the icons

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: you know, and immediately started playing
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Mm-hmm.

Emeka Okereke: with that, you know, immersed yourself in

Emeka Okereke: in the playing with it, in allowing yourself to

Emeka Okereke: sort of like rummage inside of it and not think

Emeka Okereke: of the image before the process.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: Right?
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Mm-hmm.
Emeka Okereke: and allow that to happen.

Emeka Okereke: So let, can we talk about that?

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yeah.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Well, I said, that took a while.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And so when I, after that, I came back to the states

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I just, at that point, I decided I want to be an artist.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So I moved back to the state and if you remember the

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: person I had seen that made me think, 0 my god, was Sidney Goodman.
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And so I thought I want to study with him.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And he was still teaching at the Pennsylvania Academy of the Fine Arts, so I applied there.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And so I went to PAFA and I was there for 4 years.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And but PAFA was really I

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: don't want to say anything disparaging because the

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: thing I didn't get from me was because I left early.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: The thing I didn't get happens in your final year and I

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: left before my final year because I already had an undergrad degree.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So the thing with PAFA for the 1st so I stayed there for a post-bac.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And then I went into the certificate program, which is like undergrad.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: The 1st 3 years of PAFA, you're really just doing a lot of

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: drawing, painting, like working on your skills, and

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: then your final year is really pushing you to think of what you

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: want to do with those skills.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: But I left and went to grad school.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And so grad school was really where I started thinking of, okay, I have

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: the skills from PAFA, I have an idea of what

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I want to talk about, how do I put these 2 together?

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And I think at that point the 2 people that really made a big

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: it had a big influence.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I mean, actually, maybe three, like seeing Yinka Shonibare's work.
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: Wow.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Seeing, seeing Kerry

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: James Marshall's work and someone like
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Wangechi Mutu, and even Julie Mehretu.
Emeka Okereke: Ah.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I think what Wangechi did was, she

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: showed me that there were, there was a way to pull in all

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: these references within one work and

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: still have it exist, like, I think of her

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: when she paints, it still feels like painting.
Emeka Okereke: Hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: and not collage.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I felt like I really wanted to exist within this tradition of painting.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: no, but so what happened in graduate school was

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: you know, I was, you know, by flailing around

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: making different things, trying different things out, trying to

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: really get to what I was interested in.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: But I felt the way I stayed

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: connected to Nigeria, again, remember this is a country that's changing a lot.
Emeka Okereke: Yeah.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So I always wanted to keep up with that chain.
Emeka Okereke: Yeah.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And this is like the height of Facebook and social media.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So I used to collect a lot of pictures.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Every time I went home, I would take a lot of pictures.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I would buy a lot of magazines.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So what ended up happening is that I will have all these studio visits

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: in grad school, and I will have the drawing or painting

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I had made, but somehow the conversations will end

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: up with all these pictures on my wall and all these pictures on the floor.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I will have a random thoughts, I say about Miss Nigeria

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: and I will spend weeks researching like every Miss

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Nigeria for 2 decades, and then my

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: teachers, again, thinking of like Jeff.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: My teachers were the ones who said saying, and Njideka, I think all

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: this research and all these things you collect should

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: be part of the work.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And again, like Randy was like, how dare you?

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And my man was like, I am a painter.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: What am I don't do photos?

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: But then eventually I realize like, oh, I am just

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: as fascinated by this archive I'm building.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And then it was about trying to figure out how to bring

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: the archive into my work.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: Wow, wow.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And I think also something that had kind of I

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: had hesitated on is I felt like the archives are so specific.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: You know, they're really talk, like a lot of them are very specific

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: to Nigerian history.
Emeka Okereke: Yeah.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Like if you have a picture of a scene from living

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: in bondage, most Nigerians will recognize it as an
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm. Uh-huh.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: iconic Hollywood movie, but we're non-Nigerian

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: it's kind of like, okay, I see a picture of a man looking distraught, but they don't know why.
Emeka Okereke: Yeah.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And so that was what the hesitation was.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: But then when I was in Yale, you

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: can take classes from outside

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: the school of art.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So I took a class on African

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: and Caribbean diasporic literature, and

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: it was really lovely to read all those writers

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: and realize that the ones that really

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: spoke to me or kind of

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: connected with me.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: This was like the class where I felt like specificity came into my

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: vocabulary, the ones that had specificity.
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And realizing that specificity works.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So it's like if somebody is writing and

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: they use Spanish for like what somebody says

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: and they don't translate it.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I don't speak Spanish, but it

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: doesn't take me out of this story.

Emeka Okereke: Yeah.

Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So it's like, I can follow, but it also makes that character feel

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: specific because in real life, that's what that person will say.
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Emeka Okereke: Yeah.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So one is kind of like trusting that, but

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: also not, like things like not translating

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: NPR codes which called it

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: the, I think they called it the, maybe it's like the translation comma.
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: It's like when you say like garri, the
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: food made with ground cassava.
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Emeka Okereke: Yeah.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yeah, so when you do that, it actually...

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Alienates some people because if you're
Emeka Okereke: Yeah.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: writing this for me, you don't have to explain what garri is.
Emeka Okereke: Yeah.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: Yeah, yeah.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Every Nigeria knows what garri is.
Emeka Okereke: Yeah, is that?

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So when I see the explanatory comma, you're telling me
Emeka Okereke: And
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: you're right, you're not, you're not centering me. So it made me realize.
Emeka Okereke: African literature, so they're having that issue.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: At the LA beginning.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yes, yes, yes.
Emeka Okereke: Which now made people like, oh, start with African literature.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And they have compensations. Yeah.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: Because when you go and read
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: but there are big conversations about this.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: but I realized the things I liked

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: were the things I had specificity, and I enjoyed it even when

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I was outside the group.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So it wasn't like, oh, I only liked it when people were using Igbo

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: and not translating it.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So I think it made me realize the power of that and actually

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: how much richness it gives to text and how

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: it makes the text feel grounded in a genuine, true space.

Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And I think that gave me the courage to

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: make work that references these

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: things that not everybody has access to.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So for the people that has access to them in those moments

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: you are centered.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Because again, like, I'm not centered in a lot of things and

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: it's fine for me to make work that centers people

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: who've had a similar experience or grown up in a place where I grew up.
Emeka Okereke: Yeah.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And then, and then also, like, if

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: you don't have that, there's still a lot of richness within

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: the work for you to enjoy, their conversations about the
Emeka Okereke: Mm

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: history of painting.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: They are like interesting jumps in

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: the languages of image making for you to.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Take in.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So really thinking of this work that is dealing

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: with dual or different or

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: differences within the audience.

Emeka Okereke: Yeah, it's incredible because when I'm looking at

Emeka Okereke: when I'm looking at your work, and

Emeka Okereke: how you are bringing all of these references together, but also, How rudimentary?

Emeka Okereke: You know, like, and also granula at the same time.

Emeka Okereke: you allow yourself to sort of like be very

Emeka Okereke: Like, literally, I saw, I saw Usher's photo.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Oh, yeah.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: You know.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I love that.

Emeka Okereke: Yeah.

Emeka Okereke: Actually, is a good friend.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: You know, close.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Oh my goodness.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: I mean, like back in the day, we're talking about 2004, you know
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yeah.

Emeka Okereke: before she became Asha.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: You know, we were all in Paris, you know, together.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Ah. Oh.

Emeka Okereke: before she became their shot today.

Emeka Okereke: So it's so interesting that we

Emeka Okereke: see the way you sort of like gathering, like

Emeka Okereke: Bring it together, it's all of the, you call it like a cacophony

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: and when you go to Lagos, like that's the, that's
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Uh-huh.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: the sound of the, that's the energy, you know
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: The energy.

Emeka Okereke: I remember coming from Aba to Lagos for the 1st time.

Emeka Okereke: Arrived in, you know, Oshodi.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Oh my goodness.
Emeka Okereke: And you say cultural shock is the same thing too.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yes.

Emeka Okereke: I've never seen anything like that before in my life.

Emeka Okereke: The energy, the intensity.

Emeka Okereke: But again, as a Nigerian, you know you have that in you.

Emeka Okereke: You have it.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Mm-hmm.
Emeka Okereke: Yeah, so you just join the noise immediately and start moving.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Mm-hmm.

Emeka Okereke: And then soon you begin to separate the noise from the signal.

Emeka Okereke: And begin to shape it.

Emeka Okereke: And I feel like the work of our time is to really do that.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yes.
Emeka Okereke: You know, to, shape and

Emeka Okereke: sculpt and articulate.

Emeka Okereke: That's why I call it.

Emeka Okereke: I call it work like, you know, like this really diligent

Emeka Okereke: sustained articulation of crossings, going back and forth.

Emeka Okereke: You know, back and forth.

Emeka Okereke: And I feel like this is the part that is, when

Emeka Okereke: we look at the body of work you're making all

Emeka Okereke: this 50 years so far, this is what we are

Emeka Okereke: really returning to, that's like hunting in, like really like

Emeka Okereke: teasing out more and more.

Emeka Okereke: And in these myriad ways that you're doing it.

Emeka Okereke: It's incredible.

Emeka Okereke: I wonder if we've had this sort of meticulous

Emeka Okereke: way of referencing.

Emeka Okereke: You know, I don't know if you have examples.

Emeka Okereke: of artists who've worked like this or, you

Emeka Okereke: know, from from the African continent.

Emeka Okereke: I mean, you spoke of Wangechi Mutu

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: but, The work and the
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Mm-hmm.

Emeka Okereke: way I see your work and what it's doing is very

Emeka Okereke: much more direct and yet, you know, allows

Emeka Okereke: for play, for, you

Emeka Okereke: know, like having all these, you know, layers to it.

Emeka Okereke: And also having this exploration.

Emeka Okereke: And of course, it comes from the fact that you put a lot of, you

Emeka Okereke: know, work into researching.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: And collecting, allowing yourself to sort
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Mm-hmm.

Emeka Okereke: of like piece things together, bring from different places.

Emeka Okereke: I find that very, I find that very fascinating.

Emeka Okereke: Is this something that, For you

Emeka Okereke: You, is there a part of your

Emeka Okereke: Of your process.

Emeka Okereke: that preserves this for you, or

Emeka Okereke: is it simply

Emeka Okereke: always what you are reaching for?

Emeka Okereke: Is there something about the way you make art that

Emeka Okereke: naturally, you know, pushes your work towards that end?

Emeka Okereke: Or is this something that you say, okay, I have done this work and

Emeka Okereke: look, work him out of it?

Emeka Okereke: Let me aim for that, that as well.

Emeka Okereke: Or do you just say, well, there is actually something I have preserved

Emeka Okereke: in my way of moving, a being, that

Emeka Okereke: I trust enough, that when I follow it, something

Emeka Okereke: like this is gonna come out.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I think it's the last one.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: There's a lot of trust.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: so I don't think I, it's like clear to me when I start.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: and sorry, something I wanted to answer is

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: sorry, going back to a question earlier on is Yinka Shonibare.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: is someone who had a, I mentioned him earlier, he had a big
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: influence on me.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I saw him.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I didn't know of him till it was either

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: right when I left for PAFA on my 1st year in graduate school.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: But you know, there are some works you see and you just feel like

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: oh, I understand this.

Emeka Okereke: Mhm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: There's I definitely love.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I don't even need to read the world text.
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I know what is going on here.
Emeka Okereke: Yes, yes.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: It just kind of was like, oh, you're like my mind, mind sibling.
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm,.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And I think it, I, There

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: was something about that that I liked.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Sorry, I'm trying to figure out how to explain this.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Well, sometimes these are like feelings inside you that you've not understand
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: but you can't articulate or you've not talked about
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: but it's this feeling of like, I want

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: to do this for someone, that feeling of seeing

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: something and you understand the place it comes from.

Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: and understand what they're kind of like playing around with.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And so when I do the work, I don't always feel like, oh, this is what I want.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And it's, this is a part about like artist talks

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: that makes me feel a little bit guilty because artists

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: always presents their talks as if all the ideas were

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: fully formed before we made it.
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm, mhm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: But at least for me, we're kind of like, I'm stumbling through

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: things. and changing things
Emeka Okereke: Mhm, mhm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: out, and then at the end you look back and

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: you realize, oh, this is it.

Emeka Okereke: Yeah.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And whenever I do, I do studio visits with

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: students, like grad students, undergrads.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I talk a lot about people trusting that, like

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: your instinct on your guts because sometimes you feel like
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: oh, I can't explain it or I don't know why, but is this

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: trusting that it's coming from somewhere.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: This fin-
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I don't know if I'm answering your question, but I'll keep trying.
Emeka Okereke: Not, not, yeah, definitely, you're answering it, and what
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: But, you know, that feeling of, I kind of, yeah.
Emeka Okereke: I was going to ask now is, how does

Emeka Okereke: exactly does that trust work?

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: Is it like, allowing, is do you put yourself
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Work.

Emeka Okereke: in a particular disposition and say, this is the mindset.

Emeka Okereke: This is the vibration.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: This is the way, yeah.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yes.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yeah, so I know there's sometimes I'm like, 0 god, yeah, sorry, I don't

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: want to sound like a spirit like, oh, spiritual.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: but it's sometimes it's just like a feeling

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: or like a slight thing that

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: says, Mm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Like right now I'm about to start to work.

Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And there's just that little thing that says like, what if?

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: You know, it's like, I have these faint what ifs.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: It's like, what if this is here and

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: what if did this exists behind?

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I don't know if it will work.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So I think for me, the joy in, my

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: life as an artist is the making because the

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: making, I am, I am trying to chase that thing and
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: see if it's true.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Because I actually can't see what the work will look like, but it's just this.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: This feeling that I think this could work.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I think this could be interesting, but then I have to do it to see.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I actually kind of like envision things in my head very well.
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And every once in a while you chase it down and

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: it doesn't work, which is sad.
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: but it doesn't always mean it's a toss out.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Like, I did this drawing and graduate school.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: That was a very simple idea, like, oh, what if you do like a drawing of

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: the corner of your room and I had this idea and

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I thought it was really cool, and I did the drawing and I had the crate

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: and nobody cared about this drawing.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Like, nobody did.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I really liked it.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: but I felt the idea was interesting.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And so that was when I felt like, I don't think there

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: was anything wrong with that.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: That instinct or that thought or that idea of like, ooh, could you do this?

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And I felt maybe I just hadn't, Found

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: a way of doing it right.
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So in 2023

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I actually went back to that same composition

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: and I changed it up and I made it longer and

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I like changed up a lot of things, but it is still

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: an image of the corner of my closet and it's

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: now one of my favorite pieces.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And so that was one.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: It was just like a very light thing, like, oh, what if I have this like lovely jacket

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I got from a Nigerian, like

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: a Nigerian, a British designer

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: in front of my wedding gown because I feel like my wedding in my mind

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: is something that like tied me to living in America.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: but also thinking of how every time I go back to Nigeria, I collect things.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I'm like a collector.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I like collect, I go to the market, I buy jerry cans.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I buy this.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: It's almost like I'm finding a way to bring home

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: into my life.

Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And so I was thinking of this piece where you

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: were thinking of the portrait of a place through the objects

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: you have collected.

Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And I'm thinking of my, you know, ilu, my dad did a lot of ilu.
Emeka Okereke: Mhm, mhm.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And something he told my husband, because he

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: used my husband would email with him.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: but when we were moving to New Haven for grad school

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: and he told my dad that he was, we're

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: going to move together, my dad ended the email by saying, Ejuna n'aga

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: o kpulu nkoluko ya.
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And that was like, oh, it's so true, just how we like move with our stuff.
Emeka Okereke: Yeah.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: You carry all these things that you gathered.
Emeka Okereke: Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So I was thinking of that and that view is why you ended up being the title for that piece.
Emeka Okereke: Yeah, yeah.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: And you know.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yeah, but again, it was an idea from graduate school.
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yeah.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So then when I finish it, then I can look back and be like, okay

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I say, oh, this is what I was doing.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Sometimes, the ideas are not even crystallize

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: for you till many years down.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: [unclear at edit boundary] but you feel like, oh, but this doesn't fit with what I'm

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: doing, but that came from somewhere.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Do that.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And then after you finish, it might take like a semester or

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: a year, then you go back and look and you

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: will see the connection.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: You know, it's like the things I did at Swarthmore.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: If you had asked me, I would have told you, oh, those were random.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Those were not connected to anything, I was not thinking about themes and content.
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: But there was a time I found a pack of old photos that

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: had my Swarthmore drawings in it.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I know when you're like looking at something and your mouth is open.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yes, a lot of them were random, but there were things where I

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: saw they were directly connected to what I'm doing now.

Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: But I couldn't see it then or I couldn't understand it.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I just, there wasn't enough for me to see the, that

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: this is a connected interest.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: You know, it's like, we are who we are, our interests, is

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: from us, and if you're the same person.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: You know, you're changing a bit, but you're still you.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Then that interest was always there.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: It just wasn't clear to you.

Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Emeka Okereke: Yeah, that's, that's interesting.

Emeka Okereke: At this point, I want to ask, don't you ever feel

Emeka Okereke: like, anxiety or fear that you

Emeka Okereke: might not, like, meet up, you know

Emeka Okereke: or, so, like, sustain your own momentum, you know?

Emeka Okereke: Like, what if this, what if this commission

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: now, I don't, I don't make it happen.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: No, no.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I know, I'm laughing because, This

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: is a part of me that maybe, like, 3 people I previous to.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Oh, you know, it's like, 0 my god, how much should I expose myself?

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: no, but for this commission, I mean

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I could go show you.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I have like a room in there, but on

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: the wall, there's like a quote.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Like, to, like, hype me off.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I wanted to see it every day.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Oh no, okay.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I can chat now.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: We've been chatting for a while.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: No, but I am there.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I'm not

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I'm not gonna lie.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I am very insecure, which is very good because

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: it pushes you to keep.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: like sometimes you talk to some artists and you're like, wow, I

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: hope someday I have that kind of confidence, but I do

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: like even when I'm happy with the work, I know the things that

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: didn't quite match what I wanted or what I hoped

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: and it just kind of like eats up me.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yeah, but this commission was, whoo.

Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: At some point, I understood why like

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Igbo gospel music exists.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yeah, even just but it's kind of like, oh, you will not let

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: me be shamed.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: You will not let me fail.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: I would never share my glory with anybody.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And I was like, no, but

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I will listen to it on repeat because I was so worried

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: and scared and it was like the only thing that kept

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: me sane.
Emeka Okereke: Wow, the Igbo gospel, huh?
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I was just like playing.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yeah, I was like, yeah, I had that playlist.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: Wow.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: It was like, Oh
Emeka Okereke: I should, I should do that too.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: was always like meditating because it's kind of like

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: no, you know, like your chi or like your personal thing.
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: like, you will not let me fall.
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: You will not let me, no, but, no
Emeka Okereke: Yeah.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: there's a, there's, I always have worry with my peace.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: It's never something.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I'm sure because, you know, there are pieces I don't

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: think worked out as well as they could or worked out as

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: the others, but you also, I don't know till the piece is done.

Emeka Okereke: Yeah, yeah.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: and I think with this commission, it was really scary

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: because, if if the piece is done

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: and I feel like it really dimmates the

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: standards I hold myself to, I do not show it.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I have a work that has been in storage

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: for like 5 years and I'm bringing it out to actually see

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: if I can rework it and save it, but I don't, not I don't think.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: It's not a good piece, so I'm, and I have like 2 more works

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: that are rolled up that have never been shown, because they

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: they just were not interesting.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: It's like, yes, I could show them.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yes, somebody will buy them, but I know it's

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: not as good as it can be, so I don't even want something out
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: there with my name that I don't.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: It just looks funding.
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: It doesn't look like it's there was anything I

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: was asking of the piece.

Emeka Okereke: Yeah.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: so.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: And so, and I wonder also that
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So they're just, so.

Emeka Okereke: you make work that, quite, like

Emeka Okereke: personal references.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: And in fact, not you make work.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Mm-hmm.

Emeka Okereke: All of your work is actually full in.

Emeka Okereke: So I wonder if this is also part of

Emeka Okereke: your kind of safeguard.

Emeka Okereke: You know, for, you know, making sure that You

Emeka Okereke: are following your own North Star.

Emeka Okereke: In a way, like, where

Emeka Okereke: you have sense or understood

Emeka Okereke: that there is a kind of intelligence your body carries

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: and your way of seeing and being carries
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Oh.

Emeka Okereke: and you, so like, keep that close to home, and

Emeka Okereke: you follow the orientation of that, because the Igbo

Emeka Okereke: so you had to, so.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: So if you're asking.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Oh, God, I talk about that with my kids.

Emeka Okereke: Yeah.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I think I told, we talked about it like 2 weeks ago.
Emeka Okereke: Yeah.

Emeka Okereke: And there is, you know, the Igbos are very, very powerful, the

Emeka Okereke: cosmology of the Igbos are very, you know, it's ancient.

Emeka Okereke: So, onye ajuju anaghi efu uzo, it is trying to remind you

Emeka Okereke: that the compass is in a compass.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Mm-hmm.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: You know, that.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: That I trusted, trusted, yeah.
Emeka Okereke: Yes, because you're going to meet a lot of external influences.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: You're going to meet a lot of circumstances, but that
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yes.

Emeka Okereke: anaghi efu uzo means you

Emeka Okereke: have that inner compass that is always orienting you.

Emeka Okereke: So I wonder if that that comes into play also in

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: the way you approach.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: It does.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yeah, I think for me is like when I finish work.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I know.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: It's successful.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I don't know, this is tough for me to explain.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: It's a feeling when I look at it and there is, it doesn't

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: have to be the whole thing, but there are parts.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: The kind of.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: It's a feeling inside when I look at it.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: It's just like, when I look at it and I feel

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: like my heart beats slow down and calm

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: or you know, when you look at something and this, I was like

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And you realize you're holding your breath, like it's actually

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: having, you're having a bodily

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: experience to what you're seeing.
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: and it doesn't happen.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So like when I don't have that in a piece, I feel.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I think when I have it, I, if I can have it, then I trust

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: other people will have it.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: It doesn't mean everybody will, but if I can have it makes me know someone else will have it.
Emeka Okereke: Uh-huh.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And so when I don't have that.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I get really nervous.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So with the Obama, commission

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I think what made me really nervous is I

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I did not see the peace as a whole, till

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: maybe, a month before it was done.

Emeka Okereke: Yeah.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yeah, because it's the biggest I've ever done, and

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I had just, I have an incredible team.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I have 2 wonderful people who work for me.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Sarah and Sean.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And then by February I had to hire 3

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: more part-time people.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: But what happened to Olivia Bijoux?

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I'm Marissa.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: But what happened with the pieces because it was

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: so large and there were so many elements?

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: It was like, it's like an engine.
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I was working on, we were all working on different things.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So it's like I'm trying to figure out the plants and what will be

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: in it and trying to get the right images and this person

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: is researching, like, colors and this

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: person is doing this, and I couldn't

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: sometimes with my works, I can't wait to figure out everything before I start.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So I just kind of start with the parts I'm sure of.
Emeka Okereke: Uh-huh.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So there's also a lot of like trust.
Emeka Okereke: Mhm.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Like you start with what you're short.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So the way I work is like, sometimes I have a

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: slight idea.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: It varies.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So like this one I'm working on is this true

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: image of, The back of 2 people and I

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: just have this little thought of like, ooh, what if there is this screen wall?

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And this back there, and I start.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So, and sometimes it will be something small, like, oh, what if

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: there is a head in shadow in

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: front of a window that is also dark?

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So you have this passage between dark and dark.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: then you think of places where you create

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: so this teacher I like to always talk about passage and

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: silhouettes, like where things blend together and where things separate.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I like to play with those.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So it's like, oh, what if there's this head that passages

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: into a mirror in a window in the back, but then there are

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: other places right next to it where there is silhouette, that can be it.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I have a piece I really like, the one where I'm

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: carrying a child and there are lots of plants.
Emeka Okereke: Uh-huh, uh-huh.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: The prompt for me was, oh, what if I'm sitting

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: in, behind the plant.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: That was how it started.
Emeka Okereke: Mhm.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And I, like I can find the earliest drawing of it.
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: It's just a drawing.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: It's like a stick figure of me with a plant in front of me.
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So that's how it starts.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So once I have one point I'm sure of, I start with that
Emeka Okereke: Okay.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: then based off of that, I kind of I

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So if there's one thing I'm sure of, I start with that, then I take a picture

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: of the work, with the one part I'm sure of, I print it out

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: then I start doing drawings on the printouts, to figure

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: out the next part, then I do that, then I figure out the next part till.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: That's how it's done.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Sometimes I figure out the next part, I try it

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: out and it doesn't work or I don't like it and I change it.

Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: That is very rare because I make lots of drawings

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: before I make a decision.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So I really do like try everything out.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: But every once in a while.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I think I have the decision.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I try it out.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I realize I don't like it and I change it.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I think what really shook my confidence with this commission.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Was that the 1st thing I was sure of was the

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: placement of 2 of them.

Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So I kind of looked through all the pictures I had.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I ended up using 2 or 3 different pictures.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I put them together.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I figured out where I wanted them to be in relation to

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: each other, where I wanted them on the page.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So I drew out the drawing of 2 of them so that part was set.
Emeka Okereke: Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: The next thing I was sure of, because even from my earliest sketches, I knew that I wanted.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I knew that I wanted an opening.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: In the back, and even when I look at my sketch

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: with my notes, I think I had a question that was like mirror

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: question mark, at work, question mark.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I hadn't thought of a window.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So I knew that I wanted an opening behind them and I was thinking it could be a mirror.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I was thinking of like this reference to the wedding painting.

Emeka Okereke: Uh-huh.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: The Arnolfini wedding portrait where there's a pain, the

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: mirror in the back, again, trying to do this reference too
Emeka Okereke: Yeah.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: and Northern Renaissance paintings of other couples.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: but I just thought it would be too much to

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: figure out the logistics of what's in the mirror, so I thought, no, I don't want to do this.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And then I thought of doing an artwork.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And then I thought of doing a painting, so in the end, I thought, oh

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: it could be, sorry, I thought of doing a window and

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: then I thought, oh, it could be a window that also

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: feels like an at work.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So to kind of like, take the split between the two.

Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So I took the photo.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I did lots of drawings, like really trying to figure out

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: exactly where I would place the window.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So I figured it out.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I drew it.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: The window was actually more behind him.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So after I finished that, the next thing was actually to figure out what

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: would go inside the window, and I wanted it to
Emeka Okereke: Hello?

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: feel like a garden, and I was

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: thinking of this mix, a match of her White

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: House garden and the Plumeria, which I associate

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: with him because Plumeria is found in almost everywhere he's lived

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Hawaii, yeah, Indonesia, California.
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So the 2 were meant to be together in the window.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So I took like 3 weeks, figured out all these drawings.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: We did it all, and then the next step was to

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: figure out where the wall ended, the wall with this window.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And then when we tried, when I tried to figure out where the wall ended

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I realized the composition does not work.

Emeka Okereke: Hello?

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Because when I tried to figure out where the war ended, it ended up siloing

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: both of them because then like he was in the window.
Emeka Okereke: Uh-huh, uh-huh.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: She was in the wall, and he created separation

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: and I wanted this thing that reunified them.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So that was like a month of work down the drain.
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Emeka Okereke: Wow, wow.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So then I had to go back to the drawing board to figure out the window

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: again.
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So then the wheel had to be moved and figuring out exactly where

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: and I did like 50 different sketches.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I figured out exactly where the window would end.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So I drew out the window and then we

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: had to reconfigure the plants because the plants don't

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: work the same anymore because now the silhouettes
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: in front of the window is different.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So I had to refigure out the plans, blah, blah, blah, finished drawing it.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And I didn't like it.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: It just, you know why?

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: It just like it wasn't.
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: It just.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yeah, it just felt it's wrong.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: It's wrong.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I don't know what is right, but this is not it.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Like, again, it's that thing, like my guts just.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: You know, it's just like, no, Njideka, this is not it.
Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And I was just like, no, I've spent like 2 months on this thing.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I can't let it go.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Or I just said, let it go.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: It's not doing it.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: You know in your heart of hearts this is wrong.
Emeka Okereke: Uh-huh.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So I had to abandon it.

Overlapping speech: Emeka Okereke: completely.
Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And so I actually left.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So the window was there, but no more plans behind.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So that just kind of was sat on ice for like 2 months.

Overlapping speech: Njideka Akunyili Crosby: while I was trying to figure out what it would be.
Emeka Okereke: Yeah.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: But I think at this point I got really worried.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So again, this is why it happened in pieces.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So I had to leave the window and move to like trying to figure

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: out what's on the table.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So I was doing a lot of like, okay, I can't figure this out.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I'm going to leave it and jump here.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So things were kind of happening piecemeal.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I usually work piecemeal, but never quite this

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: broken down.

Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And where was I going with this?

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And so again, I did everything

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: did not come together till the last minute.

Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I thought I was going somewhere with this, okay.

[Closing theme music]