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Some Future Day evaluates technology at the intersection of culture & law.Â
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Join Marc Beckman and his esteemed guests for insider knowledge surrounding how you can use new technologies to positively impact your life, career, and family. Marc Beckman is Senior Fellow of Emerging Technologies and an Adjunct Professor at NYU, CEO of DMA United, and a member of the New York State Bar Association’s Task Force on Cryptocurrency and Digital Assets.   Â
Marc Beckman BB: [00:01:00] it is such an honor to have you join Some
Future Day today, [00:02:00] particularly under these circumstances. Welcome.
Danny Ayalon: thank you, Marc. It's a pleasure
Danny Ayalon2: to be here with you. we're using this wonderful instrumentation of technology, but I would like one day to meet with you face to face.
Marc Beckman BB: I intend on doing so. That would be important. So let's start with technology. You mentioned that and obviously some future day. analyzes technology, culture, and law. let's consider, security and information. in, um, Israel and perhaps, uh, some might say the security and information failures surrounding October 7th.
I read recently in your words, you've described them as deficiency of deployment, a total collapse.
I've heard you use those words. So, was there actually a technology failure on October 7th?
Danny Ayalon2: Well, it wasn't technology as such, it was how to [00:03:00] use the technology or not using it correctly. in any future arrangement, I know that we will have to use some redundancies, you know, so it's fair. Once the system fails, then you can immediately or automatically, uh, Another one is, activated.
But here, it was actually a failure of a concept, first and foremost. and the concept was, on the one hand, That, Hamas is not capable of, actually such a devastating, large scale attack. And secondly was that Hamas is deterred. Basically, after they took Gaza in a violent coup against the Palestinian Authority back in 2007.
But once they have become the, quote unquote, the sovereign in Gaza, they would care for the population, in terms of, providing them, work, and, food and security and everything that,[00:04:00] any civil population needs. And on these two accounts, we were very much wrong. And this is why on the 7th of October, Which, was a Shabbat year, you know, the, Saturday, Shabbat, and also was the last day of Tabernacle, or Sukkot, you know, Simchat Torah, the military was in holiday, you know, so, not only that he, did not read correctly the intelligence science, uh, but also in terms of deployment, uh, they were not there, this is why Hamas, when They attacked, they encountered only a few, I would say, sleepy soldiers that were not combatant soldiers even.
And, and, and, and you know, they, they were bragging about this, uh, uh, victory that they had in the first [00:05:00] 24 hours. But what is this victory against It was against civilian population, children, babies, elderly people. When the military, uh, regrouped. And came back, you know, then, you know, they were pushed over and, um, fairly easily. And, of course, now we see also the, um, results of the ground operation, which is not yet, uh, over But it will be over with a decisive, uh, victory.
Marc Beckman BB: So just so I understand, are you categorizing those two issues as the first one, the Israeli government And they had knowledge that this might happen, but didn't think Hamas could pull it off. And the second piece of the failure was the fact that it was a, not just Shabbat, but a highly religious day for Jews.
And most of the soldiers were celebrating,
that day. Is that correct?
Danny Ayalon2: Well, absolutely. I mean, if, if, you want even go, uh, deeper, I mean, uh, first was the [00:06:00] concept.
Marc Beckman BB: I
Danny Ayalon2: is deterred and all they want to, to take care of their own populations. Uh, this is why, um, the government of Israel agreed. To actually bring a lot of money into, uh, into Hamas. Actually. We've had, since Hamas took over, as we mentioned in this coup in 2007, we've had a few rounds of violence.
Every, uh, round of violence ended up with money mostly from Qatar coming into, uh. Into the Hamas hands, almost like protection, almost like protection.
Marc Beckman BB: for
Danny Ayalon2: came in wake also of a lot of unrest in, in Gaza. And the Hamas used their own, uh, civil population, actually they pushed them towards the fence, you know, uh, the fence, the border with us. and again, the, uh, what ended up [00:07:00] this, um, unrest was money, an agreement to give more money to, uh, to Hamas in, um, in hindsight, it was a sacrifice, you know, Hamas understood our concept. So, it's like they demanded money, they got the money, they realized that we now are complacent because the round is over, supposedly, and this is when
Marc Beckman BB: for joining
Danny Ayalon2: whether the, uh, Netanyahu, um, let's say, strategy for the last, 15 years was good or not? Because uh, it was Netanyahu who tried to differentiate between Gaza and Gaza and Judea and Samaria or the West Bank And
he said, you know, he's on record saying that we should strengthen Hamas So we do not need to negotiate with the [00:08:00] corrupt Palestinian Authority with Abu Mazen in Ramallah about a future Palestinian state so it was a um, a whole Strategy to strengthen Hamas, to actually, um, uh, divide the Palestinians into two entities. And, of course, on the 7th of October, we got the brunt of the Hamas attack. Hamas was strong because of Israel.
Marc Beckman BB: So, but, you know, from the images that I've seen on television here in the States, uh, you mentioned the, the, the wall. I think that, um, it's widely now, uh, referred to as the Iron Wall, where I believe Israel's dumped in tons of technology, billions of dollars into creating this iron wall. And yet, it was breached by, it seems like wire cutters and, um, you know, like crude types of, uh, vehicles flown over, et cetera.
so why did the, this, [00:09:00] this iron wall, this, you know, the highest level of technology not work? Why? Why? Why?
Danny Ayalon2: Well, the first, um, idea of Hamas was actually to invade Israel underground. And they built all
this enormous, uh, um, system of, um,
what we call attack. These attack tunnels were discovered back in 2014 and the, remedy for that was an iron wall, which actually was dug deep underground. so that Hamas could not really dig and go underground.
Also, uh, we had a lot of technology, a lot of kind of, uh, uh, seismographs and, and other, uh, detection, um, uh, material to, uh, detect tunnels. So if they were Uh, to dig a tunnel near [00:10:00] our border, trying to, uh, uh, you know, just come underneath. that was detected, and indeed, we took out all their penetrating tunnels towards Israel and we took care of it.
But that also, uh, left us complacent. because we, we knew that their, um, fallback was, uh, was not good enough. You know, they going over you know, not using the towns. I mean, just coming straight, uh, from our point of view was a very bad option from their point of view. And it would have been a bad option if our military was just, uh, properly deployed. The IDF was not deployed. That, that was the main problem, problem.
Marc Beckman BB: so did the leaders of the government think when you talk about complacency, um, why would they think that the, like realizing that they're financed by [00:11:00] Qatar and realizing that Iran is also, you know, essentially, I think it's fair to say Hamas is a proxy of Iran. Why would the Israeli
government think for a second that Hamas was totally incapable of pulling something off like this?
Danny Ayalon2: In one word, hubris. Just, just, um, you know, not thinking, um, straight.
Or thinking very, very, uh, badly about your opponent. And this is not a good strategy, to disparage your, uh, it's not an opponent here, It's, it's, a mortal enemy. And, uh, and this is why I believe, uh, after the, uh, the war is over, many, many will have to, um, to, to just retire or resign.
Right now, I can tell you that the same military That had all this failure because they were not there. Now, they are doing a [00:12:00] marvelous job from a military point of view. I mean, not only they, are, they are, um, fighting, combating in a very valiant, courageous way, also in a very smart and precise way, you know, it's a, we, will discuss it later, but in such a condensed uh, urban warfare is the toughest type of um, of warfare.
And here, it's much more complex. Because it's not just the regular urban, because we also have the underground tunnels. And now I'm talking about the defense tunnels. of Gaza, not the ones that they were trying to penetrate over to Israel, but this system that they have built underground, which is enormous, 500 kilometers like that, 300 miles of uh, tunnels, 45 tunnels with uh, bunkers and uh, it's really formidable, and the IDF is taking it slowly in order to save lives, first of all Israeli soldier lives, but also civilians, [00:13:00] the, Gazan population, which is of course being used as human shields by, Hamas.
And yes, there are casualties over there of, let's say not involved. but in terms of, you know, if we can compare it to any other military, campaign in history. Including the ones in Afghanistan and in Iraq. The casualties here of uninvolved or civil population
is minimal. Is minimal.
Marc Beckman BB: I understand that, it's interesting when you use the word hubris, I actually referred to to the situation, on one of our previous episodes as a situation of hubris too. I use that exact word and really what we're talking about is we're human. We're, It's humanity. And I think that, um, on a global scale, it's easy to forget about, um, the, the humanity, the spirituality [00:14:00] that's, um, um, built into this, this situation, this war right now. Um, I have a colleague of mine. He's an Israeli. He lives Not far from you, right outside of Tel Aviv, his name is Leo Spiegler. and I mentioned his name because he actually worked for me running the head of strategy at my agency for many years. And he grasps with this concept, which, um, it's a human concept, Uh, like, what is the definition of a Jew?
And we understand if we, if we look at geography, we know that the name Jew is is derived from Judea. And if we look at the Old Testament, we can, you know, speak religiously about, um, you know, what it means to be a Jew. But what's the modern definition of a Jew? Like, Leo, Leo struggles with this, he grasps and grapples with this idea of, Do Jewish people, uh, modern Jewish people in Israel, in the United States, in Europe, all over the planet, [00:15:00] do we have a definition of what it means to be a Jew?
Danny Ayalon2: That's That's a great question, you know, who is a Jew? You know, uh, uh, when you look at the term, you know, you can, uh, look at it from a legal point of view, from an ethnical point of view, from a cultural point of view, from a religious point of view. I guess at the end of the day, you'll have to use all of the above.
And I would say a Jew is a member of, um, the Jewish people. A, um, ancient, people that, uh, has brought to humanity, morality, justice. Uh, if you look at the Ten Commandments, you know, it's, it's really, um, if, if all of us, I mean, in the world, if all peoples of the world would live by, uh, Jewish, um, let's say Jewish, uh, ethics.
And Jewish laws and morality. [00:16:00] I think we would live in a much, much better world. I would, I would say a Jew is someone who seeks peace, uh, who loves his neighbor. As yourself, you know, if you look at all the great Jewish rabbis, I'm not saying we all live by our ideals, but at least we strive for the ideal, and the ideal of being a Jew, I think, is To make humanity much better, to be kind to each other.
And I think the Jews throughout history, especially modern history, have, um, have proven that, um, they give. More than they take. If you look at all the, uh, uh, Nobel Prize winners, you know, the Jews in terms of, um, you know, our weight in the population is 0. 003%, yet, you know, if you look [00:17:00] at all those, uh, uh, Jewish, um, scientists, scholars who made real contribution, Einstein like, um, we punch much, much, uh, more than our weight, not just 10 times more, uh, 100 and more times than, than our, um, our numbers.
So, I think, uh, I mean, I, it makes me very proud to be a Jew and, and we've also had, I think, also one more, and, and I'll
Danny Ayalon: finish here, Marc, I'm just
Danny Ayalon2: belaboring too much, but there's one more. I, I think aspect to it, and that is that, uh, not only we are, true to ourselves, we are putting our, um, let's say, our money where our mouth is. Because we are willing to die for our beliefs. We are willing to die for making the world better. And look at all the trials and tribulations of the Jews for the [00:18:00] last 2, 000 years. We have paid an enormous price more than any other people I can think of in history. And yet, uh, we survived. And not only we survived, now we have thrived.
And this is also something which I think should give an inspiration to any people in the world. That if you stand by. Your values and if these are good values, you know, when you want to do good to others not bad to others You will always prevail
Marc Beckman BB: That's interesting. So it's,
you know, when you look at geography and you, and you look at the, um, you know, the Old Testament, it's easy to think in terms of like the negative, right? Like Jews have survived over and over and over again, right? But what you're talking about is more of a forward looking, looking modern vision, uh, to unify people with the spirit of goodness, right?
Danny Ayalon2: Absolutely. Absolutely. And
you would see always, you would see, the Jews at the forefront of progress, of, [00:19:00] Human rights. so it's really, uh, you know, the the Jewish state Really is an epitome of Jewish ideals. Unfortunately, we live here in a very bad neighborhood.
Uh But, uh,
Yes, the Tough Neighbor, that's actually the everything we believe in is an anathema, to them. or at least to the radical of them. And there is, a here actually a, clash ideologies, I would say. Not to use bigger word like clash of civilizations, but we are here at the same line, unfortunately, where we represent Judaism or even Judeo Christian, I would say, heritage, um, vis a vis
um, radical Islam. Now, I'm very,
careful when I say radical Islam is only a very, very small portion of Islam and [00:20:00] Muslims. But they are the ones who are setting the tone, unfortunately. And if you look at the map, Um, it is Israel who is only little Israel, which is behind Radical Islam, you know, uh, global jihadists, whether they are Shia in in Tehran, or Hezbollah in in Lebanon, or the Huis in Yemen, or Hamas.
and Palestinian Islamic Jihad. We are the only ones between them and the rest of the Western world. Europe is just next door to us. And then, of course, later on, it's the United States.
Marc Beckman BB: Yeah, it really does seem like it's a multi front war right now. You started mentioning it, you know, you know, you, you have Iran kind of, uh, providing arms and money and then Hezbollah in Lebanon up in the north and, you know, Syria is active, Yemen. obviously there's Hamas and, and there's ISIS. It seems like, although it, it hasn't formally been declared this way, it looks like Israel [00:21:00] really does sit in a tough neighborhood.
But I guess my question is, um, going back to one of your comments, like, so is this an Israeli issue or is this a Jewish? Is it, is it the tough neighborhood or is it a, now has this unfolded to, to show us that this is much bigger than just Israel? This is a Jewish issue. I mean, antisemitism is rampant in the city I live here in New York City.
We see it in some of the best cities in the world throughout Europe and North America and, and, you know, even in, in places like Africa, um, which we could get into in a second. So in your opinion, is it a Jewish issue? much.
Danny Ayalon2: it's a Jewish issue. Because Israel is a Jewish state. And if I have to define myself, first I am a Jew, and then I'm an Israeli. Israel would not be back in existence. If it wasn't for the Jewish people, you know, coming back to their, uh, homeland. Uh, the Jews are of the land, are from [00:22:00] this land.
Uh, by the way, I have always, uh, said to, to our detractors, yes, we have been in exile for 2, 000 years, but don't forget, there was always a constant, a continuous Jewish presence here. In, in our land, you know, those, uh, um, few who were left after the different exiles still kept Jewish life here in the old city of Jerusalem, in Saed, you know, it's fat in the Galilee, in Tiberius.
So, eh,
Marc Beckman BB: That's
Danny Ayalon2: if you look, uh, 2000 years, you know, there, um,
Marc Beckman BB: I think, but even modern, right, like, I think one of the prime ministers that you worked with, Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, wasn't he born into the territory before the Israeli state was formally built by the, formally acknowledged by the United Nations,
Danny Ayalon2: sure. Well
Marc Beckman BB: am I right? all
Danny Ayalon2: in soundbites. And [00:23:00] unfortunately, you know, we are falling prey, and we see it also in the United States in the campuses, where they do not really understand. I'm not talking about complex geopolitical systems and architecture, but just plain history. I mean,
right, the land of Israel has not been under any other sovereignty than the Jewish people. You know, from King David time, you know, if if I have to describe Jewish history in, in maybe three sentences, you know, we became, um, a tribe, let's say by Abraham, right? Abraham made us, put us together as, as, you know, big family.
And then, uh, Moses made us a people in the, in the Sinai, you know, uh, Mount Sinai. And King David made us a nation, a sovereign nation because, you know, his kingdom was with a specific territory. Before that, we didn't have a [00:24:00] territory. King David put Jerusalem as his capital, and that was about 3, 020 years ago.
Since then, and until now, Jerusalem was only capital of the Jewish people. There were many, many occupiers who came and lived. But all those, you know, whether the Greeks, or Turks or Mamluks, you name it.
Marc Beckman BB: British,
Danny Ayalon2: the land their own, they were occupiers, all the way to the British. And the name is Judea, Samaria, Israel. Where did the name Palestine, uh, where did that come From From the Roman people,
Yes,
Marc Beckman BB: And [00:25:00] that's
Danny Ayalon2: and,
Marc Beckman BB: we see sometimes that name with
Hebrew, um, on old currency, correct?
Danny Ayalon2: exactly, exactly. And Palina is a Roman name, it's not an Arabic name. Uh, by the way, this, um, uh, this emperor also tried to change the name of Jerusalem, and he gave it a name, Ilia Capital. it's all in the books, but Ia Kalina did not stick, so it kept Jerusalem, but unfortunately those who were chartering the maps, uh, in the beginning were the Romans.
So, and, and then, you know, layer after layer of, uh, map charters, they just copied from each other. And the name Palestina stuck, all the way to, uh, as you mentioned, to [00:26:00] 1948. And when Sharon, you know, former, uh, Prime Minister, uh, was born, he was born in Palestina. It was called Palestina AI. What is AI? The Land of Israel. This is, the official name was Palestina AI. And in Palestina, Palestine, there were Jewish Palestinians and Arab Palestinians. This is how we were termed. And because of the fighting, infighting The British mandate, you know, they, took it to the UN and the UN had a great idea.
Division. Palestine would be divided into a Jewish state and an Arab state This is, I'm quoting from the, uh, uh, resolution of the UN 181 of 29th of, uh, November 1947. The Jews said, okay, we'll take it. Although it was a very small land. We'll take it and we will build the Jewish land in Palestine. The [00:27:00] Arab said, no, for us, everything.
We do not want coexistence. We do not want the Jews. War started. We won end of story
Marc Beckman BB: How many times have the Arabs said no since then?
Danny Ayalon2: many times. Um,
by the way, it goes even further, uh, to 1937. Uh, the Arab said no. 1947, they said. no. 1967. Uh, They said no, and, uh, after the six days War, let's see, a few years later, the Arab League decided to support a, uh, a
Palestinian independent state, Which they did not before that, you know, that, uh, the West Bank today, Judea and Samaria was actually occupied by Jordan until 1967.
Gaza, that we are speaking about now, that we are fighting there, Gaza was occupied by Egypt. And the Palestinian Liberation Organization that was formed in [00:28:00] 1965. who did they want to liberate the land from? Not from the Jordanians or the Egyptians. They actually wanted, uh, all the rest of the land.
And since then, there was 2000 Kim David and the Oslo Agreement, and there was a, um, an offer by, um, Ulmer, which was, uh, another prime minister here in 2007, to Buen Every time they would reject. why, and again, it's, it's almost scientifically we can, we can prove it. More than the Palestinians want to build their own state.
They want to destroy ours.
Otherwise they would've had it their state of their own long time ago. But the thing is they want. All or nothing.
and this is something that, uh, we will not volunteer, um, our, um, demise.
not individually and not collectively.
Marc Beckman BB: So it's, it's interesting, that you mentioned that over and over again, they just [00:29:00] want one. And obviously right now, there's so much talk about a two state solution, and all. And you know, a lot of that comes to messaging. We were talking a little bit earlier about, proper messaging. So, all over the world, Muslims seem to have, or let's say radical Muslims seem to have a messaging machine, which has one message, right?
Like you and I haven't discussed this, but if you were going to articulate what that one
message is, that unified message from the radical Muslim world, what would you say it is? all
Danny Ayalon2: Jews are colonialists, imperialists,
Marc Beckman BB: joining
Danny Ayalon2: poor Palestinians from our land. They are an apartheid state because they discriminate against Arabs and Muslims [00:30:00] and they are occupiers. So, this is what they say, you know. It's all negative. But they repeat it
and repeat it all over again,
And and,
Marc Beckman BB: the Israeli messaging?
Danny Ayalon2: and, well, the Israeli messaging is, uh, is, is much more complex. They say, well, first of all, we are here, I mean, I think the Israeli messaging should be also very simple. We are of this land, we belong to the land as the land belongs to us. Full stop. We don't have to apologize. We don't have to explain. Just like French people do not have to explain why French is theirs, or British do not need to explain why England is theirs, we should not be, needing to explain why Israel is ours.
But we do it anyway, because we're trying to, let's say, get, international support and also, trying to build a basis [00:31:00] for coexistence. Because
next to this messaging, that this land is ours, has always been the message, but we are willing to partition. We are willing to live side by side with an Arab state, with a Palestinian state.
But this state should be, a peaceful one, one that does not support terror and that does not delegitimize Israel. And this is where we have failed. You know, the Oslo Uh, process, which started in 1993, the idea was To end up with a two state solutions, but two states for two peoples, right? The Jewish people and the Palestinian people. we, during this process, Israel has accepted and respected the Palestinians right for self determination. But they have never respected ours. And that all, you know, all the, uh, the, the, the, the [00:32:00] agreements or, negotiations failed. Because they did not, until now, they do not accept and do not recognize Israel as a Jewish state.
And this is what we're trying to say. I mean, just as you can self determine yourself as you like, you should respect how we determine ourselves.
And as long as they do not respect it. We are in this bind.
Marc Beckman BB: Danny, do you think that the Jewish people, the Israelis, can come together with a collective and comprehensive message that could turn the tide, perception from the global community?
Danny Ayalon2: I'm not sure. You know why? Because we are a democracy. We are a liberal democracy and pluralistic democracy. Which means, and also, we're Jews. you know, the joke about every Jew has like two or three different
opinions and we like to argue, [00:33:00] and we like to you know, we like self criticism. I think it's Great idea to get yours better, you know, uh, as we have said before, you know, what Jews have given to humanity, you know, when self criticizing is also something which is very important. So we talked about the message from the Palestinians, you know, Israel is apartheid and an occupier and colonialist. And the message from Israel, you know, goes so many ways. Why? Because we have a very, very biting press, which we don't see it on the other side. Uh, we have a civil society with different organizations with different ideas. We have the opposition, just like in any democracy, we have a very vibrant opposition, and more than that, we have a coalition government, you know, with Jewish politics, and [00:34:00] even the coalition government. does
not
speak in
one voice.
Marc Beckman BB: So this was like really evident right before October 7th, right? Like, I wonder if. This, like, innate division, I think there were, like, Supreme Court issues and whatnot, like, do you think the global landscape looked at that and pounced on the opportunity, they saw it as an opportunity to take advantage, or do you think that just was a coincidence?
Danny Ayalon2: Well, here, I really take issue with many of our friends in the Western world, democracies themselves, that actually, instead of respecting our democratic conduct, they use, it. they use our democracy against us. uh, because, um, we have, we have a laser guided, uh, messaging system from the Palestinians. By the way, they all speak with one voice. They don't have any opposition to speak of because any opposition there, you know, can speak only one [00:35:00] time against the government and then they're gone. And instead of really supporting a fellow democracy, they actually fall prey into the propaganda of the Palestinians. And, that's why, for us.
It's an uphill. So there is here, I would say, a structural, a built in deficiency when it comes to, uh, Israel's, uh,
positioning itself.
Marc Beckman BB: So, so Israel's capable of, of, um, carrying on with traditional democracy and also defending the, the nation at the same time. Right.
Danny Ayalon2: because, uh, nation states under such siege, uh, and existential threat, usually, you know, something will have to give. And this would be liberalism or democratic conduct, not here in Israel, quite the contrary. And, and we saw just in the last, uh, uh, 12 months, you know, when the government wanted to [00:36:00] unilaterally change the names of the game here, you know, we don't have a constitution as such, but they wanted to change.
uh, The basic uh, laws, that people came against it and, um, you know, with, with great many numbers and everything was done in a very, very peaceful way. No casualties, uh, uh, no, um, combat, uh, uh, the, police and all the security agencies were very respectful, of course, of their rights for demonstrations and all that.
So, um It's, uh, at the end of the day, I think this is our strength. Our, uh, democratic conduct is our strength. Uh, many difference of opinions is also our strength, except when it comes to the, positioning in the world. And here, I'm afraid. And I will say this, and I'm saying very seriously, I said that, you know, we have a built in deficiency because the Palestinians speak all in [00:37:00] one voice and we have, you know, different, messaging.
Also, we are outnumbered because there are 22 Arab countries, 57 Muslim countries, and there are some countries who sympathize with the Arabs either because they lean on Arab oil. or money. There are countries like South Africa, which have become very, um, I would say, uh, critically against Israel. You have countries, like North Korea and others, which are not Arabs, but they're all against us.
We are outnumbered. But, um, um, as I mentioned, We, uh, should
Danny Ayalon: should not just,
Danny Ayalon2: uh, uh,
Danny Ayalon: stop,
Danny Ayalon2: Fighting the PR fight, we should continue to do that. And I think there's also today, there is a whole new element here. We
Danny Ayalon: started, Marc, with technology.
Danny Ayalon2: Today positioning is also about technology, and this
Danny Ayalon: is the new media of,
Danny Ayalon2: you know, the social media and the TikToks of the world and the, [00:38:00] so many other, uh, ways that, um, you can influence, especially hearts and minds of the younger
generation, which is so
important for the
future.
Marc Beckman BB: Well, you know, It's interesting you mentioned South Africa, um, because, uh, this, this, just recently the Mandela family actually welcomed Hamas to South Africa. They joined the Nelson, Nelson Mandela's family in South Africa to commemorate the 10th anniversary of his death. I just want to read the names, Uh, the former health Minister of Hamas in Gaza, I, I might be pronouncing this incorrectly, Bassem Naeem and Khalid Khadumi, the representative of the Islamist movement in Iran, joined the Mandela family in South Africa surrounding, Madiba's. So, um, you know, it's, it's interesting that you're talking about messaging and, and, um, how the next generation [00:39:00] is, um, being influenced, you know, like
Marc Beckman: it's it's reMarcable to me
Marc Beckman BB: that Hamas can just publicly, uh, be in a position like that and, and also be safe ; when they're doing that. I
Danny Ayalon2: Um, there are so many. in the world who, as I said, fall prey to the Palestinian propaganda, they, it's like they want to believe.
You know, that Israel is bad, uh, without even checking, uh, it gives, some of them comfort just to accuse Israel. And this is downright, uh, anti Semitism, uh, so it could be ignorance, but it's not just [00:40:00] ignorance. It's also anti Semitism.
Marc Beckman BB: agree. Yeah, I, I agree. I mean, and it's built, it seems like, I guess this is a, uh, to a certain extent rhetorical, but it seems like it's been building for a long time. I mean, the United Nations, um, has not been very kind to Israel and it's not just during this time period. The BDS movement, American media, American politicians, American universities, Um, Celebrities in pop culture, I know it's a bit trite in the context of this discussion, but you know, iconic rock and roll bands, Roger Waters, it's just, you know, over and over and over again and yet, American media will still, maybe, maybe all of that is, is taking its toll on the public perception of Jews in Israel and, and, uh, creating deeper roots for anti Semitism. and yet, um, people are still willing to like go as far as like trusting Hamas on like their data for reporting Killings or, or
anything like this. It's, it's incredible to me.
Danny Ayalon2: Yes, and you look, if you look just at the, [00:41:00] United Nations organizations, United Nations should be a microcosm of the entire Let's say, global community. You have not just the political bodies, right? The Security Council and the general Assembly. You have specific organizations that should help and work with children.
You have unicef, which is an organization to help and, keep and respect children all over the world. You have UNESCO with culture and science. you have the human, uh, the, women. international organizations, which is to respect, of course, uh, the, the, the women and protect them, especially against, uh, gender type, uh, crimes, which are awful.
Uh, all those were men After this terrible, uh, slaughter of the 7th of October, raping of uh, Israeli women, uh, [00:42:00] killing Israeli babies, all the, you know, the, the, the worst kind of monstrous things, and they kept quiet.
Marc Beckman BB: so the question is then, wouldn't the International Red Cross and these other international organizations, if it was anywhere else, wouldn't they be reporting on the condition of hostages?
Right. Right.
Danny Ayalon2: Well,
the International Red Cross has one mission, and that is to get out of harm's way :prisoners of war, and especially, especially when it comes to civilians and when it comes to hostages. First and foremost, they should demand a list. You know, Hamas did not even release a list of all those who were, who they, uh, uh, kidnapped.
Uh, secondly, they would demand to get an access to make sure that, uh, uh, all those hostages are being treated in a humane way. Uh, [00:43:00] many of them, in our case, are either, you know, very young or very old who are, uh, you know, in dire need of, of, of medicine. So they would supply them with medicine. None of the above has happened, and we don't hear any outcry, and we don't hear the Red Cross, you know, pounding on doors, whether it's in Qatar, or Cairo, or anywhere else.
Marc Beckman BB: It's as if Israel's like, you know, still standing alone. I know the United States is an ally, but what happens if the United States doesn't use its veto power in the UN? Will, will, will Israel still move forward? Could they stand up? Will Israel stand up to the Biden administration and move forward with, with the mission as it's been articulated that the two, the two concepts that Netanyahu has articulated? for
Danny Ayalon2: doubt, United States is our best friend and ally. Uh, it's not just out of historic and, [00:44:00] uh uh reasons it's because of very cool and calculated uh, national interests. Uh, there are many Americans, uh, who came to the halls of powers and became privy to all the intelligence and analysis We said that, uh, if, um, Israel was not, uh, here, it should have been invented for American national security.
So, so here, um, this will continue because, for instance, uh, just one case in point, Hamas. Uh, Hamas, their organization. is not just an enemy of Israel, it's an enemy of the United States, it's an enemy of stability in in the region, Uh, it's a proxy of uh, Iran. Iran which is being supported by Russia militarily and uh, politically, supported by China uh, in terms of commercially and economically, both rivals of uh, the United [00:45:00] States. The well being of the United States is very much dependent. On stability in, in the Middle East, on um, oil prices, and free flow of oil and energy.
Marc Beckman BB: It's interesting actually, um, some of my friends from Israel asked me to ask you specifically that question regarding, um, will Israel stay strong in, in the face of United States policy that might make, um, Israel, um, not, not feel like it could use the full force and effect of its military to carry out its military oriented goals against Hamas. Um, those questions actually came from some of my Israeli colleagues.
Danny Ayalon2: so the short answer is yes, again, because we won't need to. the U. S. interest in uh, destroying
Danny Ayalon: Hamas is
Danny Ayalon2: As, um, I would say viable as, as Israel's, uh, the, um, US [00:46:00] interest is of a peaceful, uh, Middle East of, um, eliminating the the, the threat of terrorism, of nuclear proliferation from, uh, Iran, uh, of keeping, uh, free navigation, you know, in the straits of, uh, or Moose, the Red Sea anywhere, um, the U.
S. has global interest, uh, which really benefits uh, the, the American uh, objectives, you know, uh, uh, prosperity, um, um, all the economic benefits come out of, uh, uh, stability, uh, and, um, if Israel was not here, it would have taken the U. S. so much. uh, more in, in, in terms of, uh, uh, casualties and in terms of, um, military efforts and economic, uh, drainage.[00:47:00]
Uh, so, so, so we are together in that and the U.
S., uh, We'll not really interfere with tactical issues of how do we, eliminate Hamas. We do differ on the day after and and we have to, uh, to reckon with that. But this is also not something that, will bring
us into a
collision course quite the contrary.
Marc Beckman BB: Well, like before we get into like the nuts and bolts of the day after, I get, I have a question. Like if I get the sense of like, in a way, like it's as if Israel and America are waiting for something to happen as it relates to Iran. there's like this. Weird type of like emotional, like there's no logic to it except for the fact that we
Marc Beckman: know Iran
Marc Beckman BB: you know, has said publicly over and over again that they'd like to see Israel and America wiped out, that they're financing all of this terrorist activity, But do you get the sense in front, this is really a professional, um, uh, like in your professional opinion, do you get the sense that like there's like this kind of like global thing
where like, we're not talking about it, but we're waiting [00:48:00] for something to happen with, with regards to Iran?
And I'm
Danny Ayalon2: vis a vis Iran was too soft.
Danny Ayalon: The Iranians are very determined to actually reach hegemony, to actually take over the entire Middle East as a springboard to even further. Domination of the world. We have to understand that the Ayatollahs, and all you need to do is, their reading and their teaching, uh, they are, fatalists, fatalists uh, they really believe in Muslim domination,
Danny Ayalon2: and, and, and not just Muslim, but the Shiite type Muslim of the, of, uh, of, the Iranians.
Danny Ayalon: and they will push and push until they are stopped, until they encounter an opposition. And so far, um, the opposition has not been, uh, strong enough.
Danny Ayalon2: Uh, the only threat you have on Iran, uh, Ayatollahs [00:49:00] is their political survival. They don't care about the Iranian people. By the way, the only time that the Ayatollahs
Marc Beckman BB: you
Danny Ayalon2: In 2003, when they were flanked by U. S. forces on their
Afghanistan border and on the Iraqi border, and they thought that they would be, might be coming next. So they voluntarily stopped. So there is a way to stop them. but you need a credible military threat, which has not been on the table, and this is why they were able to reach and, and, and and move forward to
to where
they
are today.
Marc Beckman BB: is the weak policy, as everybody says, the weak policy, towards Iran just an extension of the Obama administration's policy?
Danny Ayalon2: I think Obama was, was too weak. You know, the JCPOA, this is nuclear agreement with Iran in 2015, uh, had so many loopholes. And we have to remember, at that [00:50:00] time Iran, Iran was begging for these negotiations. Iran at that time was on the verge of economic collapse and political isolation. And here you have one, uh, um, I would say weakened Iran on the one side of the table.
On the other side of the table, you have the five, six actually with Germany. The six most, um, uh, uh, strongest nations in the, in the world. So you would think that, you know, the, uh, the outcome would be in favor of those. countries that also wanted the stability and, uh, and, and, and security. And, and yet the Iranians were able to really push and almost dictate many of the articles of of, this peace agreement.
Then 2018 came and Trump, uh, withdrew from the agreement, but There was no fallback. There was no plan B. Hence, now, [00:51:00] uh, that
Marc Beckman BB: the
Danny Ayalon2: uh, did not actually, um, let's say double down on the, the pressure from the Trump administration and, uh, the Iranians are now off the hook. On the one hand, they blame the Americans for breaching, for breaking the agreement.
They move forward against. all the international norms and international law. And nothing is being done. So today, unfortunately, the only, um, thing, the only, let's say, stop between Iran and a nuclear weapon is an Iranian decision. If Iranians decide now they want to just make a breakthrough. to, uh, detonating a, uh, a,
nuclear device, they can do it.
Marc Beckman BB: Once they have the ability to create a nuclear device, like it doesn't [00:52:00] matter who's in the American, executive branch of government, they, they have that knowledge, they have the knowledge, right? Just, it really, it's, it becomes an ongoing threat to Israel and, and to America and, you know, democracy in general.
Danny Ayalon2: Absolutely. Yeah. You cannot take away, the knowledge, but you can keep such deterrence, uh, where they will have to do their cost benefit analysis, realizing that, uh, in order to, um, continue and illegally strive for nuclear capabilities,
Danny Ayalon: they will pay
Danny Ayalon2: Pay a a heavy price. Now, ultimately, ultimately, um, There is always the, um, the, a military answer and with, with that, you know, of course it's not the first, uh,
Danny Ayalon: tool in the,
Danny Ayalon2: in the toolbox that, uh, should be used, But, um, and, and also it's, it's an effective to an extent [00:53:00] because, you know, you can take out. Certainly, the United States can take out all, if not, uh, most, if not all, the, the, uh, nuclear installations. But as you
Danny Ayalon: mentioned, Marc, they have
Danny Ayalon2: the, the know how. So, in five years, 10 years, they can build again. So, but they should understand that if they do it, you know, it's like mowing lawn, that they, every time, they will, um uh, Spring up with illegal nuclear activities, it will be taken down, and, uh, hopefully They will understand that it's not to their
benefit to do that
Marc Beckman BB: so just staying on like American policy right now, do you think American policy is strong enough as it relates to the American hostages? Like, why aren't, I don't know if you realize this or if you've heard it, Danny, but like here in the United States, There's, there's no politician that's vocal about the American hostages, um, at all, frankly, there's no one in the media that's vocal about the American hostages.
Why [00:54:00] aren't the Americans, or maybe they have special forces that are trying to get the American hostages and the Israeli hostages, um, out of Gaza? But, again, in your professional opinion, do you feel like we are, as a nation right now, being a little bit too weak? policy wise in general?
Or is there, is there, a reason,
Danny Ayalon2: Well, the reason,
was actually spelled out by, uh, by the U.S They don't want a widening of the war. um To that effect, they sent these two strike force groups, you know, the, the, uh, the, the, you know, these aircraft carriers, the Eisenhower and the Ford for deterrence, but I'm not sure the deterrence, um, works very well.
Look at all the attacks on American forces. in the Gulf, and, um,
Marc Beckman BB: and
Danny Ayalon2: not recall, uh, taking, let's say, Russian hostages
Marc Beckman BB: soon.
Danny Ayalon2: Or, uh, targeting, uh, [00:55:00] Russian assets.
Marc Beckman BB: all
Danny Ayalon2: crazy and demolish everything at sight. and with the U. S. right now, there is a loss of,
Marc Beckman BB: us
Danny Ayalon2: the U. S. does not respond uh, in a timely manner, so there is a, you know, a
context
uh, relationship. and not in a forceful way, then, uh, this, um, pricks and needles, uh, will, will continue and uh, we see right now with the Houthis, if they will, uh, stop the free navigation, the passage in the, uh, uh, you know, in the straits, in the Arab, uh, straits and in the Arab Sea, not only Israel will be affected, the entire world, you know, 17%. of world commerce and shipments go through this, uh, uh, straits.
And [00:56:00] now the, the, The um, result is a, um, rise in shipment costs, in insurance costs, everybody's paying for that. And you need an international response. Who is capable of leading such a response? And an international alliance is the United States. And this is where I would expect the U.S to have more leadership and more determination, and more, I would say, A
Danny Ayalon: a clear message.
Danny Ayalon2: Right now the message is
not
clear.
Marc Beckman BB: I, know that you referenced Russia, a few times now, and, I, correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe you actually worked a few times and met Putin a few times in your career. in your
Marc Beckman 2: opinion,
Marc Beckman BB: would, would Putin sit back and, um, uh, be so, um, gentle and balanced if Russia was in the
situation that Israel, that Israel is in right now?
Danny Ayalon2: No, [00:57:00] not at all. and we have seen, it. I mean, we have the Ukraine where we saw that actually the military apparatus, or the conventional, um, military apparatus of Russia is almost a, uh, paper tiger, I would say, this is a good thing, but, unfortunately they have a formidable, um, nuclear Arsenal. but, uh, the Russians were In a way, uh, in a similar situation than Israel in Chechnya about 20 years ago, think it was 2002 or 2001, I can't remember exactly. But, uh, again, and, uh, who acted up against uh, the Russians? Muslims again. You know, radical Muslims in Chechnya. How did Putin respond? Carpet bombing. He flattened Grozny, which is the, uh, the capital of, of Chechnya. So the Russian response have always been very decisive. And of course, no [00:58:00] regard to human lives, no regard to, uh, to innocent people in between. So this, these are the Russians. but, they command, I would say, uh, a healthy respect, if you will, from other countries.
This is why you don't see Russian forces or troops being attacked anywhere in the world. Uh, unless they are the ones attacking in, Ukraine, which is a self defense war by the Ukraine, but, uh, Russian, uh, um, military bases around the world are not under any threat, unlike the United States, which is
really, um,
unfathomable.
Marc Beckman BB: Danny, it's, it's another thing that's unfathomable.
to me. That's actually like mind blowing is the fact that Hamas billionaire leadership is sitting in Qatar, in Turkey. and you know, Mossad and the United States hasn't taken them out yet. I read today, I don't know if it's accurate, but I read that, um, apparently they're on the move [00:59:00] and I'm curious, I don't know if you've heard this, but I'm curious again, from your professional, uh, in your professional opinion, what does it mean if the Hamas leaders are moving out of Qatar and Turkey? We can imagine where they're going, but is there something deeper there? Does that mean that they're, that like, the Haas, like something might have happened to the hostages?
Or like, what, like, why would they be on the run all of a sudden? Like, was there like a, a breakup between the United States, Israel, and Qatar with regards to them protecting these people now? Or like, in your opinion, what, what do you think that, that means or
Danny Ayalon2: Well, yeah, well, it's hard to speculate. I would say the fact that they live or they will live as fugitives is a good thing because if they have to invest a lot of their time and effort and resources to run and hide, uh, they have, uh, less, uh, Time and, um, and, and resources, uh, to to attack us, but the fact that they all should be, [01:00:00] um, I, I would say, um, should, should be brought into justice, there's no question about it, And I think here Israel is determined.
I don't think we should speak too much about it. um, you know, Well, Prime Minister Netanyahu said that he gave an order to the Mossad to kill them all. I don't think he should have done that. You know, if you want to shoot, shoot. Don't talk about it. You know, the Munich, massacre of 1972, where, 11 Israeli athletes.
were massacred by Black September, none of those, uh, terrorists of Black September, which belong to Arafat, you know, it's part of the PLO, basically. Um, none of them uh, ended up, um, uh, his life. peacefully, not the perpetrators, Not the ones that sent them, and I think this is, this should be the lesson. Same thing is with Hamas now. You know, the Hamas are Nazi like.
I mean, they [01:01:00] actually breached any, any norm of humanity, of, uh Uh, of normalcy, of, it's, just terrible. And with this type of evil, um, you have to bring them to justice. Just like the Nazis, uh, were, uh, hanged in, uh, Nirenberg, uh, the Nirenberg trials, I think that the Hamas perpetrators of the 7th of, uh, October massacre should be
treated
same way.
Marc Beckman BB: on a personal level, I believe that you have a relationship with the United States uh, CIA, CIA director, Bill Burns, and I think he's in the region right now. What would he be doing there
right now? all,
Danny Ayalon2: a Most capable, uh, diplomat. And leader, I think the CIA is in good hands, And under his command, very seasoned, very experienced. he was, actually, um, very [01:02:00] commendable that, uh, he was so much engaged personally in the release of, um, The, um, the first, you know, few batches of, uh, uh, hostages that came out, I think 110 altogether, and I think that, also shows the, closeness of relationship between Israel and the United States, and it's not just the, American, citizens who are, In the hands of Hamas, it's also the Israelis, and I think also what he's trying to do here is to keep the alliance together because there is a, we talked about this, uh, um, shared interest.
It's not just between Israel and the United States. Uh, it's also the, uh, moderate Sunni countries, Egypt, uh, Jordan, uh, Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, the Emirates, Morocco. [01:03:00] All those countries, um, have the same interests As Israel and, uh, the United States. First and foremost, their own survival, because the, uh, ayatollahs in Iran and their proxies, Hamas, for instance, Hamas is a mortal enemy of all the, uh, uh, moderate, um, you know, Muslim regimes. that's why nobody wants them in their own, uh, In their own, uh, territory, but I think what, uh, Bill Burns does also is making sure that the coalition, you know, this actually undeclared coalition between the Israel, the United States and the Sunni Abrahamic, uh, countries, uh, uh, you know, the ones that we have a piece with, um, that, um, they would work as closely together in
coordination
as
possible.
Marc Beckman BB: Yeah, I know that Saudi Arabia was close to joining the Abraham Accords as well, right before October [01:04:00] 7th. Do you think there's a chance to get back to that after this war?
Danny Ayalon2: Undoubtedly. And this is also one of the reasons that we need, uh, to see a, uh, decisive result. Because if, uh, we end the war with Hamas still standing, that means that Iran has won. And that means that Iran can continue. And build their uh, cells and terror organizations in the region uh, to the detriment of uh, peace and security and maybe to, uh, the glee of, uh, of Russia and maybe even China.
Um, I, uh, cannot say for certain, but the timing of the 7th of October massacre, you know, um, came in the wake of, um, a declaration by President, uh, Biden of a, um, you know, [01:05:00] moving together, uh, and, uh, peace between Israel and Saudi Arabia, which would be even bigger for the region because what, uh, uh, the president Biden was talking about, uh, was actually connecting Asia with Europe through the Middle East, uh, like a.
from, Uh, India and Saudi Arabia and Jordan and Israel
and Egypt, uh, to Europe. This would have been a great, um, let's say a substitute to what the Chinese are trying to do with their, um, what they call the, uh, the, the belt and road projects. which, uh, would be a project with all the, uh, dictatorships of the world.
So in order to scuttle such a thing, certainly Iran is benefiting from a possibility of rift between, or not getting together between [01:06:00] Israel and Saudi Arabia. But I think that the interests are too strong. And once Hamas is down and out, we will see a new engagement between Saudi Arabia and Israel and all, actually, the moderate countries in the region.
We have two camps here. We have the camp of the Ayatollahs of Iran with all their proxies, and we have the camp of the United States. And in this camp you have Israel, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and all the other countries. It's
important that the United States wins and
not
Iran.
Marc Beckman BB: So, I have one quick question for you and then one closing statement. I know you've been extraordinarily generous with your time and I know it's getting late there so I really appreciate it. My first question to you is, Is October 7th the worst day in history
of Israel? all for joining
Danny Ayalon2: you can, um, judge it first of all by the numbers. You know, um,
Marc Beckman BB: to
Danny Ayalon2: 200 [01:07:00] Israelis were, were slaughtered in this day. more Then in any other day since the Holocaust, you know, more Jews were killed on the 7th of October in any other day since 1945. So this is telling why it was so horrible. And secondly, I think it was the, the, the psychological, uh, blow, to Israel, uh, understanding that, um, we are still here fighting for our independence, fighting for our existence. We do have the capabilities to defend ourselves, by ourselves, but we also need to have the will to do that, and we need to have the, um, I would say that the will to deploy, and the need to deploy all of our capabilities. So, So it was a shock to us that we were [01:08:00] not prepared. So yes, it was the worst day, uh, in Israel's, uh, modern history since the, uh, Israel was re established in 1948.
And I say re established because, you know, we were here 4, 000 years ago. So, uh, as a modern nation, we were reestablished. We were not established by By the UN, We were established by our own leaders throughout the
history.
Marc Beckman BB: My guests end the show, um, by finishing a statement that I start, um, tying back to the show's name, Some Future Day. So I'd like to challenge you with this, Danny. I know this is off the cuff, but you're, I think you're up for it. Um, in some future day,
Israel will be
Danny Ayalon2: In some future day, Israel will be a hub of technology and of inspiration to the Middle East and beyond. Taking and [01:09:00] actually, uh, solving all the challenges that the region has challenge of, um, um, food security and water availability. The area is draining. Uh, um, food security is very, very, uh, uh, frail, desertification.
Danny Ayalon: The desert is pushing
Danny Ayalon2: forward. Only technology can change that. Israel already has the technology. It will continue to work on this technology, and it will continue to be able to defend
Danny Ayalon: itself. And with a strong strategic
Danny Ayalon2: position of Israel, militarily, strategically, economically, culturally, and scientifically, I believe we will be a magnet.
For, um, many countries in the region to join force, with Israel
Danny Ayalon: and to live into a prosperous,
Danny Ayalon2: uh, and, uh, coexistent world, uh, together. Uh, [01:10:00] I I believe that, uh, the leaders of the region and the people of the region prefer, uh, um, peace, stability, and prosperity for their children over death and misery and poverty.
And uh, this is what the other side offers. what Iran and the radical Islam offers is only death as they cherish death. We cherish life. Life will always win over death.
Marc Beckman BB: All right, Danny. Thank you so much for, you know, all of your insight, expertise, knowledge,
passion. It's really been a pleasure having you on some future day today. I appreciate it.
Danny Ayalon2: My pleasure.