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Diagnosed with Complex Trauma and a Dissociative Disorder, Emma and her system share what they learn along the way about complex trauma, dissociation (CPTSD, OSDD, DID, Dissociative Identity Disorder (Multiple Personality), etc.), and mental health. Educational, supportive, inclusive, and inspiring, System Speak documents her healing journey through the best and worst of life in recovery through insights, conversations, and collaborations.
Over:
Speaker 2:Welcome to the System Speak Podcast, a podcast about Dissociative Identity Disorder. If you are new to the podcast, we recommend starting at the beginning episodes and listen in order to hear our story and what we have learned through this endeavor. Current episodes may be more applicable to longtime listeners and are likely to contain more advanced topics, emotional or other triggering content, and or reference earlier episodes that provide more context to what we are currently learning and experiencing. As always, please care for yourself during and after listening to the podcast. Thank you.
Speaker 1:Hi. I can see and hear you. Can you
Speaker 2:see and hear me? You're so lovely. Hello.
Speaker 1:It's good to see your face.
Speaker 2:I need to warn you that my Internet is super wonky out here in the country, but we will do our best.
Speaker 1:Oh, okay.
Speaker 2:You're so brave and good. Thank you.
Speaker 1:This is this does not I'm good. How are you?
Speaker 2:I'm good. I'm good. A lot is happening, but while my children are busy, I want to get the beginning stuff at least. I don't know yet if I'm going to use this or how or if it's only for me, but it feels important. So I want to do it.
Speaker 2:And then if I decide to use it, we can be like, Hey, is that okay for us to use that?
Speaker 1:Okay. Are you still doing therapy with?
Speaker 2:No, because I moved away and it was too far. Okay. And all of those layers, I'm just gonna stay with the therapist I'm with and I'm okay with that.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So Yeah,
Speaker 1:for sure.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I'm I'm good with that. Okay. I am losing you in and out, and I know it's my end, but I don't know what to make it better.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I'm losing you a little bit in and out too.
Speaker 2:I'm sorry. We'll just try. We'll just try.
Speaker 1:Let's just try.
Speaker 2:Okay. I'm gonna start at the very beginning because I wanna sort of put all the pieces into one place. The cool thing about you there's so many cool things about you. But the cool thing for me about you is that you are one of the only people that I have known almost my entire life. Yeah.
Speaker 2:You are one of the only people who have stayed even when I am lousy at friendship, which we can also talk about, but you have just stayed and been there and safe and present and just, hello, checking on you, I'm still here and not given up on any of that. And to me, that's powerful. So even before I want to talk about the rest of it, just want to say thank you for that.
Speaker 1:It hasn't been a problem. It hasn't been a chore. Okay. So for context,
Speaker 2:how would you tell the story even of how we met? You were my brother's middle school was it a middle school then? English teacher?
Speaker 1:Yeah. Was it a middle school? No, I think it was a junior high still.
Speaker 2:It was still junior high?
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I was his seventh grade English teacher, you were also, do you remember, you were also in Teens for Christ. I was a sponsor of Teens For Christ. So I kinda knew you through that first.
Speaker 2:The earliest story that I Oh, I didn't even realize that. Okay. The earliest story I remember of a connection to you, and I wasn't even there for it, was the story of you going out and marching out on the football field to talk to the coach. Can you tell that story?
Speaker 1:Yes. So there was a kid, his name was Grant, in my English class with your brother, and he and I think you stayed at his house after school and stuff someday, but Grant was not always nice and occasionally said things that were rude and judgy and mean. But then when he did it again, I just marched myself. His dad was a football coach and they practiced at the stadium there behind the school. And so I just marched myself out there one day, practice stopped, and told him I needed him to stop being, to tell his son to stop being mean in class.
Speaker 1:And he said he would. Yeah. I don't know if he did, but he said he would.
Speaker 2:Did that feel like a big deal to you to do that or that was just part of you who you are?
Speaker 1:No. I just I really the one thing that would upset me in the classroom was when kids were mean to each other. And because he did it repeatedly, I just went and talked to his parent. And, no, it wasn't like a, oh, I'm going out of my way. I just did it because it was one kid being mean to another kid.
Speaker 1:Thanks. It was bullying in the nineties, before bullying was cool and hip.
Speaker 2:There you go. So I knew you from there. And then the next thing that I know that happened is when we transferred to the high school and my brother was not going to survive the high school, he got sent to the private Christian school. Yeah. I followed him there out of concern for him, I think, is the Reader's Digest version.
Speaker 2:But the school was at your church at the time.
Speaker 1:Right, and I think you all started coming to church there then, didn't you? Or you did.
Speaker 2:So we were going to that school and ended up going to that church and our family was struggling obviously at the time but I had to work at the school to help pay for our tuition and I ended up getting involved in different activities through trying to help, which really was about paying for school. It was not so much that I was a good person and outspoken because I was very quiet at the time. But
Speaker 1:Very you were very quiet.
Speaker 2:Do you remember that?
Speaker 1:Yeah. I mean, you know, we didn't really connect until a little bit of a phase later but you were at church and I because you were in the lives of some of my friends. Like, they do some stuff for you for a while. You have because you knew those boys from school and everything and so so I kinda so you were kind of on the peripheral of my like, I knew you through other friends, but I also had known you as a student too, you know, yeah.
Speaker 2:Right. And then the next big shift was because we both left home basically. My brother got married super early before he even finished high school and I left home and needed a place to stay. Some people from church offered to foster me, but I was old enough that they said it was better, They, the court said it was better that if we just sort of emancipate myself, but I needed a place to live and I had to be in school and ultimately ended up living with the family to take care of her boys and stay in that room, like to have a room but in exchange for taking care of her boys and doing some cleaning and things. And that's when I started seeing you a little bit more because you knew her.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, oh, she and I were pretty thick friends by that time. She and her husband was a minister and for some reason, left the church. I don't know if he got I think he got fired. He had an affair. Yeah, he did.
Speaker 1:He did that too. And so he they left they were there together like a couple for about a year, and they lived in our neighborhood. And so we connected our kids liked each other. So we went into that friendship pretty fast and thick, kind of in a place of having to work because she hadn't had to before and, and everything. So she was in a big transition, and I think that whole situation with you needing a place to live kind of surfaced as a help for her and a place for you.
Speaker 2:What do you remember about that
Speaker 1:season? It seems like it was your senior year. Yeah. Because it seemed like some place that you needed to be some place like to finish out your senior year.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:And it was always a big one to really absorb a person into her life, and and she did that with you. You my mom, you know, and I remember you being there and that taking a burden off her, like, because you could be with the boys when she was working or doing other things. My guess is that very quickly, my guess is the deal was you would help with, taking care of the boys, and you would help with housework and stuff. My guess is very quickly that help with housework stuff probably became, you're in charge of the house, and if I come home from work and it's not great, I'm gonna get pissed at you. But she didn't ever just say she wouldn't have ever just said, you need to do a better job of having this picked up and blah blah blah.
Speaker 1:She would have just gotten ugly and very passive aggressive and wouldn't have said anything but would have been upset with you and you would have known it.
Speaker 2:Yes. You
Speaker 1:know, but there wouldn't have been a conversation about it. Right. Right. That's true. That's true.
Speaker 1:They also had like the boys had a room and I think a couple of them shared a room and maybe the oldest one had his own and then you had a bedroom. But at some point, you rearrange rooms and give, I think, what was your bedroom to all of the boys' toys so that they would have a toy room, and she moved you to this little room that I that wasn't really a room. It was kind of like a little sitting area, alcove area up the stairs that you saw as you came up the stairway. It's like a little bitty tuck away room, but it was open to the stairway. And I think for they put curtains there.
Speaker 1:Anyway, she moved you into that room without you being part of that, and I remember that, and I remember that was I think that was kind of a turning point for you.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Oh, I'm really not a part of this family. She just moved me without telling me, and she moved me into a room. I mean, like, literally, that really didn't give you much privacy because at any time, someone could pull the curtain back. And they were good boys. They probably didn't do that, but they could've.
Speaker 1:And so I would imagine that, like, changing clothes and those kinds of things became kind of, awkward for you. That's all true. That's all true. And the boys had so many toys, it was crazy.
Speaker 2:They did, they had so many and it
Speaker 1:was
Speaker 2:hard to keep everything the way that she wanted it and to do it well. I remember once I finally went to school, once I went to college, several things happened. One, I that she told the dean who was the counselor on campus, like everything about me that she thought she knew, whether it was accurate or not, but without any conversation or permission, just told her everything. And I remember that she talked about how like that church basically was still my family and I can come home anytime. And then as soon as I was gone, cut that off.
Speaker 2:Like, don't call anymore, don't come anymore. It was too much work.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think I came home there, home from college, just a little bit in that first semester. But I think before holidays or anything, that was probably over. Or if you came, it would have been very awkward because, yeah, you weren't serving her purpose. Yeah. I mean, you weren't sure, but just so you'll have it.
Speaker 1:Now, she found your journal in your room, in that room with no privacy. She found it when she was upset with you once, I guess. She found it, and she read it, and she was very disturbed by it. And she brought it to me. And I read it, and I saw I heard different voices in it just, you know, knowing that piece of writing and everything.
Speaker 1:I heard different voices speaking in that writing, and I heard, and I saw different handwritings. I saw a lot of things changing, and I knew I knew that that you needed help. You needed a therapist. I knew there was something going on with you that you needed real help, not just someone at church or just some counselor. I knew.
Speaker 1:And this was right before you left because she was all like, oh, who do I tell and blah blah blah, you know, and everything. And I said, you you tell one person. You take it to one person, and we because and you tell him, we have to get this girl help. And she's we have to connect her with someone that will do therapy with her. And they decided, I think, in their great wisdom to put you with someone on campus that they both knew because they had both gone to school there.
Speaker 1:And so, they decided to contact someone, and that's probably who she called and told everything to. I remember my concern was that you get help. Nobody ever thought you were dangerous or anything, but, but I don't think I don't know if who they connected you with was a real therapist or if it was just a counselor on campus or a Christian counselor on campus or a teacher. I can't remember, but it was a woman person who connected you with Yes. Ultimately.
Speaker 2:Part of the problem too was that some of that conversation happened in enrollment line actually in front of everybody. It wasn't like a private conversation that she had with the dean, although maybe there was more. And I didn't have that piece about her finding my journal, although it doesn't surprise me at Oh,
Speaker 1:no. That's a real piece. And I think I had told you about it, but that was a real piece, the journal. And and it bothered me that she found it and that she read it and that she brought it to me. And because I didn't feel like she did that for any good reason.
Speaker 1:She didn't I don't think she came to me like, I am really concerned. I think she said came to me like, this is crazy. You should read this. You know? So that was that piece.
Speaker 1:But it would not surprise me that she had a conversation with the person out where other people could overhear it. Not at all.
Speaker 2:That was a hard thing. I think one thing that was very meaningful to me once I got to know you later was learning that it wasn't just that I had messed all that up. Because in my experience as a 17 year old and an 18 year old was that I had finally gotten outside my family for help, and then it was still my fault and I still messed it up and it was still taken away. And it wasn't until talking with you later and learning more that although I obviously had problems for sure, absolutely, that so did she and that it wasn't just me.
Speaker 1:It wasn't. And you know, think back, the people that you went deep with, that you trusted, that you chose to trust, either because other people told you this was a good person for you to live with or whatever, I, I ultimately, I was in relationship with those same people and had to pull out because of the level toxic they put melody, but I did too. And I later had to break that relationship, like, put a boundary, not a boundary, like, those were toxic people. And, of course, you would I mean, it was not a bad thing that you went into relationship with them. They were offering you everything you had ever wanted.
Speaker 1:And other adults in your life reinforced that, that they would give you what you needed. They would help you. It's funny to think back to that time when I literally had no one and so I had to pick who was in front
Speaker 2:of me to try and
Speaker 1:trust and sort it out. And I do remember there being the very end of you being around, even though I think it had broken off for a while, you went you left house to go for a weekend to a wedding within your family. And you came back and told her that I I think it was not a good situate that you went back to your family for this wedding, and you, that you climbed up a tree to be away from someone at the wedding. When I looked back on it, it was a traumatic weekend for you. And so you came back and you shared those kinds of things and that you didn't eat all weekend, like, people didn't give you food and stuff like that.
Speaker 1:And you shared that with and she called to come to her house to talk to her about this. And she asked me to come to that talk, and I did and told her none of that happened. No. None of that happened. She was never in a tree.
Speaker 1:And I think you told him when you told her that weekend, you just and he said, no. She always continues to say these things, and none of those things happen. Nothing happens like that. I live in the same family. It never happened.
Speaker 1:And so I think that's when she completely cut ties with you because she thought she took in fact, I did not take it that way. Seeing your journal and knowing that there was probably abuse in your past, I I thought your behavior was because of trauma. And so you were getting help.
Speaker 2:Okay. So how did this school connect with her? Why that therapist two hours away or however far away that was that they sent me there.
Speaker 1:Okay, okay, I know that. There were therapists who were also Christians, but there weren't any that called themselves Christians therapists. So a group of churches together came together and said, We need to find someone. And they ended up finding and I think she was not way into being a therapist, so she wanted to build her clientele. And they gave her free office space with Doctor.
Speaker 1:In his offices. They gave her free office space once a week to come for a day and work with people that these churches referred to her income. And so because you needed a therapist and because probably was connected to your college, that's how that connection probably came. But practiced in like four days a week, but that's in connection with your college that this person and so. Yeah.
Speaker 1:You didn't see your Muscovy.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so the psych professor's wife is the one who drove me to those sessions every week. And the deal was I could only stay in school if I go to therapy there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, sounds right.
Speaker 2:And they also took the journal that you were talking about and the journals I had to do for the dean and called my parents to campus and gave all those journals to my parents.
Speaker 1:Your parents? Wow. I don't think I knew that piece that the journals went to your parents.
Speaker 2:Yeah. It was bad. But anyway, aside from that school, because I got away from that school, but, so we were in therapy with her and she's the one who diagnosed us with DID, diagnosed me with DID.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:How did you find out about DID?
Speaker 1:Through talking about you and through reconnect because she was doing therapy with you and doing therapy with me, and she realized we were overlapping. Like, she realized that we knew each other. And probably when you talked about the situation with me and everything, she put that together. And she said to me one day that she had spoken with you and that she had your permission to tell you to tell me that you remembered me and that you always appreciated me and liked me. I think that might have been when you first started living with her and those connections were made and she said, you know, she spends time at my house, kind of lives there and goes to school and everything.
Speaker 1:And then it probably wasn't too long before, probably, I don't know how long it was before we actually connected at house.
Speaker 2:When she said that I was living with her, did you have any thoughts about that internally at the time?
Speaker 1:You know, I didn't know enough about therapy and about code of ethics and everything for I I I think I do remember thinking, wow. I mean, that you I had been friends with one person you lived with, and now I was well, she was my therapist at the time, and now you were living there. I I thought it was very coincidental, which it was, but I didn't I don't think any red flags went off to me about I think I logically saw the connection that from to back to I think I saw that connection so it didn't like blow me away. And I also just didn't know enough about therapist code of ethics to know that what the hell is she living with you for? You know?
Speaker 1:Yeah. As well. I remember her actual words were, as I did more therapy and did more therapy with her, I realized what she needed more than anything was a stable family. And so she stepped in to fill that role and still be your therapist, I think. Yeah.
Speaker 1:I don't know if was therapist, like, don't think you still went to her office, but I think she still probably did therapy with you as you lived there.
Speaker 2:How did you learn about DID once? I mean, you told me how she told you, made that connection, but once you learned about what DID was, how did that develop for you? How did you learn or understand what it was?
Speaker 1:Well, part of it, I learned a lot just by being in relationship with you and you coming to part of that. But, also, I I kinda always because I always kinda wanted to be a therapist, I kinda always had a curiosity about DID, and I actually remember, like, in when I was, like, in high school, the movie Sybil came out, and I was kind of obsessed with it. And then I read that book, and I always kinda found my myself in what's called DID then, but multiple personalities or or whatever. And so I kind of had that peace in me, just knowing that peace. And then I'm sure when she told me, I probably by that time we had internet, so I probably started reading stuff and then she probably loaned me a book or two about it, and I read more probably in the time I was meeting you and we were reconnecting.
Speaker 1:I also knew another person that she had diagnosed DID.
Speaker 2:I forgot about that piece, that's right.
Speaker 1:She used to tell me people's diagnosis, because she was still doing therapy with people, even after she quit going, she had kind of built up a little clientele that came to her. And she would tell me about sessions with people, tell me their diagnosis. She did tell me one other person she had diagnosed with DID and I had never seen that in him, but I don't know that I was close enough to him to see that, you know, I hadn't seen that.
Speaker 2:Did that raise any red flags for you yet when you were hearing those stories about other people's sessions?
Speaker 1:Yes, I did know then. I remember thinking she's telling me things I shouldn't know, but those things. I was already friends with her. And so, you know, to me, that was a sign of look how close we are that she will share those things with me because, you know, she trusts me that much. And that, you know, that was in my own journey.
Speaker 1:That was very important and very critical to me at the time to have this admiration and trust. Yeah. I I saw red flags then. There was some wild story between you and me, and so I wasn't ever, like, there for them, but I remember hearing about them. One was that you Texas and stayed with someone, okay, at college.
Speaker 1:They were afraid for your you were afraid for your life with someone. I kinda suspect it might been your dad or for your life. And so you knew someone in Texas where you could go and be safe for a while and you went there and took you there and it was not a good place. Yeah. The husband was bad there.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Do you remember that? There was a piano?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And did he rape you?
Speaker 2:Yeah. Okay. That was before you were friends?
Speaker 1:Not there for that. So I think there was, I think you did therapy with before I did therapy. I think maybe we had, then I think you started living with Jill and I was still doing therapy and at some point she told me about our connection. You okay?
Speaker 2:Yeah, there's just so many things that I forgot.
Speaker 1:There were also, there was a time that you were not safe. There was another time when you were not safe that took you to the monastery. That's right. But that was not a danger. You weren't you were fine there.
Speaker 1:In fact, I think you kinda liked it there. The scariest thing was, like, a mean nun would tell you not to roller rollerblade in the hallways or something. I think you were okay there.
Speaker 2:We did rollerblade in the hallways. That's right.
Speaker 1:But you also liked it because there were some awesome pianos that you got to play.
Speaker 2:That's funny. That's funny.
Speaker 1:So But I wasn't there for that. I wasn't there for that either. That was before I came into the scene.
Speaker 2:Once you were on the scene and we were just hanging out at her house all the time, or as we reconnected later, what was, just specifically for first for the DID, what was that like for you as an outsider of me? I mean, what was your experience of DID with me like? Does that make sense?
Speaker 1:Yeah, actually I was kind of fascinated. It was very just like watching a movie or whatever. It was very fascinating to me. I I mean, it's not like I liked it, but because you were there, I was very much interested, and I was very accepting of it because you were a little worried about that, I think, at first to meet me and then, you know, for that piece to kinda come out. But, I think but it did pretty quickly.
Speaker 1:So I think you felt pretty safe with me pretty quickly once we reconnected. And but what was interesting was then as I met different people in you, I could see those from when I knew you, like, once when you lived in that little room that didn't really have a wall, I heard you singing like I was downstairs. And I and I would say things like, she talks like a baby sometimes. You know? And and and so, though, I started connecting pieces and also reading the journal, I kind of it all kinda started coming together that, oh that's what that was.
Speaker 1:And one thing I was really kind of glad that I had recognized it when I heard about all the horrors of it. And I also I think you and I had a conversation that I felt bad about how that went for you because it was another traumatic piece added to it. But I remember you saying, but if somebody hadn't done the said, she needs help. Yeah. It took you a while to get to that help, the real help.
Speaker 1:But whether Jen was abusive or not, she did help you start putting the pieces together of you. You know? And, I mean, she did work with me that helped me start the work I needed to do, so that wasn't just, you know, awful terrible.
Speaker 2:It was so complicated when you're in the middle of it to try and untangle all those pieces.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And and I remember who I saw first, but who came I think kind of cord. I mean, that was kind of in your wild days, and so there was huge. Courtney could be out, especially when we're having a lot of wine. You
Speaker 2:know? That's funny.
Speaker 1:I think, Sarah was, always there in the mornings. Like, when I would stay at, Sarah always woke up in the morning, so I saw Sarah pretty quickly and John Mark. Gotta love John Mark.
Speaker 2:That's so funny.
Speaker 1:Yeah. He always had everything you needed. He always had an electric cord or a wrench or a rope or whatever you need. The John Markan scrounge.
Speaker 2:That's funny. That's funny.
Speaker 1:I became closer and closer, and I think the closer we got, the more I saw other parts of you, other pe our own relationship outside of we started having a friendship that wasn't just, like, only at her house or only around her.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:Because I think we knew each other before. We started having, through email, think mostly at first, we started developing our own friendship.
Speaker 2:And then I've never been good at it. And I don't know why it's so hard or such a big deal. I mean, I don't know why it's hard for me. I don't know that answer. Very active.
Speaker 2:You were
Speaker 1:a very active friend at that time as you needed it. I mean, you still were in that place of searching for somebody to love you forever. They had to have my friendship, just friendship. And so you were very active in maintaining the relationships, and you would drive to come see us at the drop of a hat and and everything. So yeah.
Speaker 1:And then you met Susanna.
Speaker 2:Oh, Susanna.
Speaker 1:I babysat Scott and Susanna at and been around them. You know? And so but one weekend that you were at just I brought Susanna up.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. Crowns.
Speaker 1:Yes. And you two fell in love instantly. You she liked you so much, and you liked her. And you were very guarded about who what alter could be with Susanna because you were afraid of some of them because you felt like some of them weren't nice or weren't good people. And so, Sarah so you got really tired lots of times because many times the alters would argue with each other about who got time with Susanna.
Speaker 1:And then someone else would be saying, I want to do an adult stuff. I wanna go hang with you. Would want to play with Suzanna the whole time, you know, because she was the best friend.
Speaker 2:That's funny. I love her.
Speaker 1:So you started a relationship with Suzanna too. Sarah did through my email. So of course, I was watching everything, but you all did, and you would mail letters to each other. And,
Speaker 2:That's adorable.
Speaker 1:And it was really odd because then you would come to my house sometimes instead of instead of you would come to our house. You got that comfortable, and, everybody just rolled with you. When John Mark was around, you and John you and John Mark and Skye watched Needles and, you know, and everybody just rolled it at our house.
Speaker 2:That's so funny. That's a big deal because I don't feel that very often ever at all.
Speaker 1:To see you once, do you remember that? Do you remember that once Suzanne and I that was a while down that we're getting we're mixing timelines up That's okay. With just the French with the friendship with and I came to see you at once.
Speaker 2:Wow.
Speaker 1:And then you were living with summer. Well, here we go. I know the summer. The February, you were living with for the summer for some reason. I'm not really sure why.
Speaker 1:When why would that have been? You were over there, and you were staying with her again that summer. And I I remember I was moving from the middle school to the high school, and I was in for a week of training. And I didn't that was the first time I was kind of, like, around in the area, and I did not see her or go to her house. And you and I met up a couple of times in the evening for dinner that week and to just connect and hang, but it was the first time I didn't go see her.
Speaker 1:So and it was the school year 02/2006, '2 thousand '7 that I really pulled away from 02/2005, '2 thousand '6 that I really pulled away from And then but it took a while before I actually made the break.
Speaker 2:What was that like for you from from recognizing what was going on to the actual break? What was that like for you? Like, how did you figure out those pieces?
Speaker 1:Well, it started with I got really sick. I don't know if you remember that. One spring, the February, I got really sick. School year and I did not go back until October. And in that time that I was very sick, I was just kind of crashing.
Speaker 1:And I had already done and then I had and after I got well, which I never really got totally well, but a few months, I would be with with. So about a year into that is when I knew I had to make the break, and I have calling and emailing and stuff. But I really hadn't gone to her house for several months, And then I think it was in that summer two thousand seven that I with friendship. But I did it nicely. I was but that summer, you were at and you understood understood that I had to leave and you knew at that time that you had to to get beyond that to do it.
Speaker 1:When we would come see you and when you would come see Jen and I either at my house or her house or whatever, you were working with a therapist and that seemed to be doing good work for you, with you, and Jen and I even went to a session with you, with her. But you told me later when we talked about that when you were no longer working with her, you told me later that you were making a lot of progress but you were doing it yourself. I mean, you were going made sense and of what was going on in your head, but that that therapist wasn't that awesome of a therapist. It's just that you were in a place ready to work and we're working on them, but you told me later, you were doing that work. You know?
Speaker 1:Other therapist that you also got crossed lines with you. She went bad on you, but you had her, that woman at and you had your and then you had that all took you further in learning about yourself that all crossed boundary lines, which screwed you up at the same time.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Was Mary kind of an out of control person. I think she was drinking a lot and I think there was that was not a good relationship.
Speaker 2:They had an affair.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And who you were living with at the time ended up when you two split, she ended up staying as their friend, and you lost that whole circle.
Speaker 2:No wonder I don't like people. It's just been really hard even when I got it right.
Speaker 1:Wow.
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