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In this episode, we are joined by Kirk Higgins, Vice President of Content at the Bill of Rights Institute, to discuss the importance of civic education in shaping the next generation of informed and engaged citizens. Kirk shares insights about the institute's mission, the challenges of teaching civics in today's polarized political climate, and the importance of students understanding their rights and responsibilities. Later, Kirk delves into the history and significance of the Star-Spangled Banner, offering fascinating details about its origins and its enduring symbolic power. Tune in for an enlightening conversation about civic engagement, education, and American history.
00:00 Introduction to Constitution Day and Guest Kirk Higgins
00:47 Kirk Higgins' Background and Role at the Bill of Rights Institute
01:17 The Mission and Importance of the Bill of Rights Institute
02:59 Challenges in Teaching Civics and History
04:32 Engaging Students in Civics Education
06:23 Broader Educational Programs and Impact
11:46 Funding and Support for the Bill of Rights Institute
14:24 Measuring Impact and Growth
22:15 Flag of Change Segment: The Star-Spangled Banner
24:22 Historical Significance of the Star-Spangled Banner
31:23 Conclusion and Final Thoughts
Creators and Guests
Guest
Kirk Higgins
BRI Executive Team Vice President, Content Since joining the Bill of Rights Institute in 2014, Kirk has made significant contributions to the scope, sophistication, and substance of the Institute’s resource development. He leads the Institute’s Content Team, which guides the Institute’s content creation, including curricular and video resources. Kirk received his B.A. in History from Hillsdale College and his M.A. in History from George Mason University.
What is Freedom and Glory - Tales of American Spirit?
Welcome to Freedom and Glory: Tales of American Spirit—a podcast celebrating the heart of American craftsmanship, resilience, self-reliance, and the power of disruption. Through inspiring stories and authentic storytelling, we shine a spotlight on individuals and communities who embody these values, proving that small, determined efforts can spark meaningful change.
Join us as we share personal tales of triumph, innovation, and hope—moments that define the American spirit and shape our nation’s identity. Whether you’re seeking motivation to pursue your dreams or a reminder of the power of community, Freedom and Glory offers a powerful dose of inspiration rooted in resilience and determination.
Listen, be inspired, and take action.
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[00:00:00] With Constitution Day, just around the corner, we're joined by Kirk Higgins, vice President of Content at the Bill of Rights Institute. Kirk is an actual historian and he's here to share how we can all help shape the next generation of informed, engaged citizens by inspiring action through knowledge.
Liz: Um, tell us about yourself, Kirk.
Kirk Higgins: Yeah, thanks. Excited to be here. Um, so yeah, my name is Kurt Higgins. I've been at the Bill of Rights Institute for about 11 years now, which is exciting. Um, I'm originally from Indiana [00:01:00] and found my way out to the Washington DC area. Um, doing this, doing history and education. Um, my focus and background is on early American history, um, so founding period.
Um, but at the Bill of Rights Institute, I get to do a whole lot of other things, which is a lot of fun.
Liz: What, what is the Bill of Rights Institute?
Kirk Higgins: Yeah. So the Bill of Rights Institute is an educational nonprofit. Um, we work with teachers across the country to produce. Civics history and government resources for classrooms. So all of it's available at no charge to the teacher. Um, we're just here to try to equip them with the best possible resources we can.
Um, and try to tell the story of the United States, um, in a way that is engaging and exciting for students. I.
Bill: I gotta ask you, Kirk. Obviously you feel there's a need for this. I've seen a lot of videos online. A lot of folks don't know a whole lot about the Bill of Rights or what they are. Would you agree? And how big of a problem is that?
Kirk Higgins: Yeah. Yeah. I think it's, it's [00:02:00] one of those things, especially with the way that our country is founded, right? Which is about self-governance, that each generation needs to learn these skills, and that goes back to the founding. In fact, even in some of the earliest. Um, founding documents in the Constitution for 1780 of Massachusetts, for example, there's a call for education and that the importance of education, um, particularly education around what it means to live in a republic is there.
And so it's one of those things that we need to continue to push and, and help students to understand, to grapple with, um, to see what it is to actually engage in, in self-governance, which is hard. It's really hard, and we're living at a time now. Um, of of, of partisanship where things are are pretty tense.
Um, and so the more that we can equip students to understand what it is to engage with their fellow citizens, what it's to go out to their communities and make a difference, um, and what it is to appreciate, um, founding principles of, of liberty and equality and natural rights, um, then we can equip them to, to make a difference and to continue on this great American experiment.
Liz: Are [00:03:00] civics still taught in school? I mean, and, and how is that, I assume the, the partisan, you know, nature of what's happening now kind of makes it hard for some teachers to,
Kirk Higgins: sure.
Liz: uncomfortable for them
Kirk Higgins: yeah, yeah. No, it is a challenge. Um, you know, in, in civics is still taught, um, certainly, um, it's not required in every state, but it's taught in most. Um, and, and students are getting exposed. You know, the way that we think about civics too is that it's sort of a, it's, it is, there's a civic component to everything you're learning when you're learning history, when you're learning government.
Um, and it's a hard thing for teachers, especially with as many, um, you know sensitive topics as exist out there that people get upset about or people have interest in or people have different perspectives on. Um, we work with teachers across the country who are just dedicated to trying to. Do the best for their students that they can, and they want to talk about some of these things.
And so we try to equip them [00:04:00] with ways of engaging in conversations, even, you know, sensitive conversations because they're all important. Um, and by the way, it's what kids want to talk about. Kids don't just want to talk about boring uncontroversial stuff. They want to go right to the heart of the most controversial thing that's being talked about.
But we need to do it in a way that's responsible and in a way that's not politically driven or politically motivated but in a way that's gonna equip students to think for themselves and to be able to engage in those. Different conversations in a way that's, that's truthful and honest and, and respecting their fellow citizens.
Bill: Well, how do you do that? Excuse me, to, to make it engaging. Why is it important? To that student in the classroom, but you are also up against, you mentioned the partisanship. There's a, there's an ideology that runs through our, our education system. So are you bucking that as well? And when you talk about being sensitive, is that what you're talking about, that sensitivity?
Kirk Higgins: I, you know, I, sensitivity, I think there's a lot of ways to think about it. I, I think it's just there are a lot of topics [00:05:00] where people have a lot of opinions. Um, and those opinions can be difficult for a teacher to navigate. And, you know, for us, we just try to look to the founding of the United States and the intellectual tradition that it comes from, and try to produce resources that, um, highlight how special and unique that founding period was.
Um, and how powerful the principles are that motivated both the American Revolution and then the drafting of the Constitution, and then find ways of making that relevant for students. You know, it's easy for students to look at that and say, well, well, that was, you know, almost next year, 250 years ago.
Why does that matter to me? Why does it matter to my life? Um, you know, the, those founders didn't have the technology that we have or anticipate the kind of government that would exist now. Um, and that's just not true. The founding principles, things like separation of powers, things like. Um, you know, our civic virtues of humility, courage, responsibility, um, all of those are important lessons for students to understand and grapple with because it's all about what it actually means to engage in a community, engage with [00:06:00] their fellow citizens.
Um, so we try to go back to those. Founding principles, those first things. Um, and then build from there to find relevant connections for students so that they can see why these things are still important to them and why, you know, the words of the Declaration of Independence still hold meaning and are still tremendously important, um, and shape the way that our country functions.
Liz: So you're the, the content and how you engage with students. It's not just around the, the, the Bill of Rights. It's, it's much broader than that.
Kirk Higgins: Yeah, correct. So we do everything from US History so all the way from sort of the even early colonial days up to the present. Um, we also do government. We just released a new government textbook, in fact. Um, so looking at all of the ins and outs of how the government works, um, and what its relationship is to civil society.
Um, then we also do character education. What does it mean to demonstrate good character, um, practice civic virtues, um, like I mentioned, humility, courage, integrity, responsibility. Um, and through all three of those things [00:07:00] through history, government, um, and character, all of that comes together to, to develop responsible citizens who can go out and be thoughtful patriots, um, and, and be individuals who are going to engage in their communities, but in a way that.
Um, is, is consistent with, um, you know, with, with, with the intentions and, and the, the shape of the founding, um, in the constitution.
Bill: Well, I find that's a fascinating, but I, I, I know we've kinda lost touch with, I have a, a, a little kid in elementary school and I'm, and what they don't know. I mean, they don't even know the states much less the constitution at this point. It's, it's really quite frightening. Kirk. It it is. I don't understand how if you were driving and you didn't know what the posted speed limit is, you anybody could pull you over.
You know what I'm saying? You, you don't know what your rights are, and that's what the Constitution is all about. Do, do kids understand that? It seems even on the college level, they don't really understand that.
Kirk Higgins: Yeah, I think that there [00:08:00] is a lot of room for growth. Um, and, you know, the, there's a lot of, um, different including the, the, the. There, there are always studies that are coming out that are showing the deficit in knowledge. And I think that's why it's so important for us to continue to push, um, to help good teachers get in front of good students and help them develop this knowledge because it's, it's critically important and there are signs of students being more and more engaged, um, in, in lots of different factors.
But, but you know what, what I think is most important in, in Federalist 48, James Madison wrote about this, that the constitution's a mere parchment barrier. Right. It's, it's nothing except what we put into it and the, the links that we'll go to to defend it. Um, and so in that way, that's why it's critically important that students know these things.
Like you said, like knowing the speed limit, knowing the rules of the road. It's critical that students know their rights and responsibilities so that they can be the defenders of them and so that they can ensure that we're holding the government accountable. Um, and while also, you know, standing up and defending jealously, um, our rights which is, which is critically important.[00:09:00]
Bill: Now, how do you, um. Piece of the constitution, you know, the debate continues. There's the originalist viewpoint and there's those that while there's an a living, breathing involving document, you know, I wish my mortgage were that way. Well, maybe not today because of the interest rates, but, um, but I mean, how do you present that?
Because you have these, you know, and they're legitimate points of view. How do you present that and how do the teachers present that? How do you help them do that?
Kirk Higgins: What we try to do is to equip students to be able to engage in those debates and understand what's going on in all of them. So when we teach Supreme Court cases, we teach the entire case. We teach, um, what the majority opinion was, um, what the dissent was and what the outcome of the case was, um, as a way to engage students and say, look, smart people are disagreeing about this.
Why? Um, for us it comes down to that original framing. We think there's something important about the constitution, the way it was structured, why it was written the way there was written. Um, but equipping students to be able to make that decision is what's key for us. And so giving [00:10:00] them the tools to be able to engage in those debates to thoughtfully, um, see how these different philosophies are playing out and to not be, um, blindsided or surprised when they come across something new, but instead, um, exposing them to all of these different arguments so that they can see.
The shapes that they take, the directions that they go, um, and that, you know, that the interpretation of the constitution is something that's constantly happening. And it's something that is important. Um, and it's something that needs to be revisited and understood in order to do it effectively.
Liz: So I, I'm guessing that the, the institute doesn't have a political leaning.
Kirk Higgins: No, we're non-partisan, so we try to avoid dipping into politics. Um, in any way. Um, you know, like I said, we have a, we have a philosophical foundation that goes back to, um, natural rights and the way that the Declaration of Independence is written in its connections to the Constitution. So there's certainly principles that we stand on.
Um, but for us it's not about politics. It's about helping students be equipped, [00:11:00] um, to engage and, and perpetuate self-governance. And so that's what, that's where we really focus in on.
Liz: Yeah. Yeah, I think, I mean, that's awesome, especially with chat, GBT, you know, just information's at your fingertips and I think. Just being able to again, know how to debate and know how to ask the right questions. That to me is the important thing to learn.
Kirk Higgins: Yeah,
Bill: I hope the schools continue to teach cursive so they can actually read the Constitution.
Liz: Oh, like the original, in the original text document. It's kind of tough to do, but
Kirk Higgins: I, I, I'm with you on that, especially as a historian. The amount of cursive I've read in my life is, is extensive. Um,
we haven't dipped into that yet, but but yeah, I agree.
Bill: Now I imagine there's a cost to, to this and I mean, are you guys funded or and how are you funded? Maybe it'd be a better question.
Kirk Higgins: Yeah, we're fortunate to be supported by, you know, hundreds of different individuals and foundations from across the country. So [00:12:00] private donations, um, folks invest in, in our mission and help support the work that we do. So, um, we don't have any cost to the materials that we have. Um, for teachers, all of them are available digital for free, online.
Um, and they're all published as open educational resources, meaning teachers can take 'em, adopt 'em, and use them in whatever way they, they think is best for their classrooms. Um, and we're really insistent upon that. We think it's critically important that they just have access to this stuff, and we try to provide the highest quality material possible so that they can take it, put it directly into their classrooms.
Wow. What, what are, I mean, you also, do you have programs for teachers or do you, um. What are [00:13:00] some of your other programs, I guess?
Kirk Higgins: Yeah, absolutely. So, um, I obviously, my title says content, so I oversee the development of all our curriculum materials, but, um, we have a whole bunch of great folks who do professional development workshops across the country. So they go directly to teachers and district. Um, and do professional development education, um, to help teachers just continue to get better at their craft.
So that's happening all the time, um, all across the country with our network of over 85,000 teachers, which is incredible. Um, and then we also have, um, student programs as well. So the one that I love the most is our Mypac challenge, which is the contest run every year where we look for students who are doing and invite them to apply, um civic work in their own communities.
And so students, um, apply and. To show just the incredible incredible stories that, that they're, they're having an impact, whether they're really big, starting their own nonprofits to, to do various things or, or smaller things, which are just as equally as important, you know bringing, um, like we had one student who, who [00:14:00] started a farmer's market in her town, um, in Illinois because they didn't have one.
Right? So, um, it, it's amazing the difference you can make if you get involved in your community. It doesn't have to be the biggest thing but we wanna encourage students to, to get engaged in whatever ways they can.
Liz: Yeah. Yeah. I love that, that message. I mean, that's what, um, freedom and Glory is really all about is, you know, small actions that can spark something bigger. Um, I was gonna ask you about how you all measure your impact. I mean, I know the number of teachers you're touching, like that's incredible, but are there other things, like, like you mentioned that story.
Are there other ways you're measuring your impact on young people?
Kirk Higgins: Yeah, we're, we're, we try to hold ourselves as accountable as possible. Um, so even, even our teacher list, um, we're constantly making sure that those are truly active teachers. So folks that are actually engaging with us, um, year over year, we clean that list up every year to make sure that, that we're serious about that number.
Um, but we also measure, um, [00:15:00] and do research. We just finished a study with Georgetown University looking at the efficacy of one of our, um, grade three to five, um, resources. So that means how effective it was at teaching what we wanted it to teach. Um, and I was excited to see that we had significant knowledge gains.
Um, in both of the lessons that we had teachers engage with. Um, so we're doing research studies all the time. Um, and then we're also just looking at how it is that people are engaging with material on our website, making sure that they're looking at it, using it, reading it, um. We do pilot tests when we have new resources coming out.
So we get feedback directly from classrooms to make sure that what we're building, um, makes sense for the teacher in the classroom. We're not just building what we think they should be doing, but what actually is most effective for them. Um, and then we are also just getting feedback as our programs team on the road, and they're coming into contact with teachers, what more do you want?
What more can we do? Um, and so they're all, those are all ways that we're, we're constantly trying to improve what we're doing and make sure that we're producing materials that. That meet the needs of educators. 'cause they're doing really important work.[00:16:00]
Bill: Is it growing Kirk? I mean, are you seeing the demand for what you're offering? Growing over the years.
Kirk Higgins: Yeah, it's incredible. And we have, I mean, there's so many teachers throughout the country who are just so excited and desperate for really good resources. Um, and, and for us too, you know, we try to ground everything. Um, like I've been talking about our founding principals and civic virtues, but also primary sources are really big for us.
So we don't always leave them the original cursive. But we are big on using. Primary sources to, to ensure that students are engaging directly with the history, not just being told something, um, but seeing for themselves and, and working to make those conclusions. Um, and teachers are, are really excited about it and we're building momentum.
We think next year is gonna be a really big year for civics, um, which is the 250th anniversary, um, of the declar, the signing, the declaration of in depend. In July of 1776. So 2026. Um, and I think that's gonna be a big year where, where the nation turns and reflects on, um, what, what, who we are, where we've come from, and what it means to do civic education.
So we're excited to, to continue to grow into the next year too.[00:17:00]
Liz: Yeah. That's awesome. I think there's tons of opportunities with the America two 50. Um, I also, you know, some of our listeners are, are businesses as well. I mean, that's how I got introduced to you all, um, through Justin. Um. Can you share a little bit about some of the, the offerings for how businesses can get involved and support you all?
Kirk Higgins: Sure. I mean, anybody who wants to support us can go to my b i.org. Um, and there's lots of ways to, to support, um, support us, um, reach out to us, reach out to me. Um, I'm happy to make connections too with our, our development team, Justin, um, being one of them. So we're always looking for corporate sponsors to come around, um, alongside of us and support what we're doing, um, because we'd see that there's a real.
Um, businesses have a very important civic role, um, and in fact we're very fortunate to partner with the Chamber of Commerce Foundation, um, and the civic speed that they do every year with a content engine for the civic speed, which is an incredible, um, growing opportunity across the country. Um, but the, the role that businesses play is something that we [00:18:00] stress in our materials as well.
That, um, there are lots of ways, um, to make a difference in your community, whether it be, um, by petitioning the government, trying to make a change there, or by starting a business or a nonprofit in order to provide a need or a service, um, that doesn't exist. And to us, it's all civics. That's all working to support, um, the public working to support the community.
Um, and so we love partnering, um, with organizations and corporations who, who share that vision.
Bill: So for those, and it might be parents, excuse me, I have a frog in my throat this morning, but, um, parents, students, teachers who may watch this podcast, not part of it right now, but would like to be, same website, is that the best way to get in
Kirk Higgins: Yep.
Bill: with you and get involved?
Kirk Higgins: Yeah, absolutely. My b i.org. Um, you can check out all of our material there. Um, it's not just for the teachers. Anybody can, you know, go and download, um, our lessons. You don't even need an account. You can get access to all of it. Um, we also have videos, um, online on a YouTube channel, um, which is the Bill of Rights Institute, YouTube channel.
Um, lots of different videos on lots of different things that you can [00:19:00] share, um, share out, get access to, um, if you're a homeschool educator, um, we've got lots of resources there for you as well. Um, and yeah, any parent who, who is interested, who wants to engage directly with their students or just make a recommendation to their teacher, um, you know, it, it's all there free and, and available for, for use for anybody.
Bill: Awesome.
Liz: Great. Well, thank you so much for joining us, Kirk.
Kirk Higgins: Yeah, absolutely. Thank you both for having me. It's been a lot of fun.
Bill: Thanks, Kirk.
[00:20:00] [00:21:00] [00:22:00] . Alright, welcome to our flags of Change segment, where we explore how powerful symbols are often born from the bold vision of just one individual. So, Kirk is sticking around. Um, we're gonna talk about one of the most iconic flags in American history, the Star-Spangled Banner. So this flag inspired our national anthem and continues to symbolize resilience and unity more than 200 years after it flew over Fort McHenry.
Liz: So, alright, Kirk. Um. Start at the beginning. How did this massive flag come to be? Um, who was behind making it?
Kirk Higgins: Yeah, so I feel very fortunate. I live not too awful far from Fort McHenry, which is situated outside of Baltimore. Um, and the flag itself was actually commissioned to be made, it's a garrison flag, which was something a [00:23:00] lot of the forts at the time would have, um, to be raised for special occasions or holidays.
Um. Or in the case of Fort McHenry, just in the morning which is interesting but the flag itself was, um, commissioned sort of on the eve of the war when it was coming. Um, and it was created in Baltimore by Mary Young Pickers Gill, um, and her, her flag making shop. So she had several, um, young assistants who were helping her with it.
Um, and it was, it was massive. So 30 by 42 feet. Um, it weighed around 50 pounds. Um, and it had 15 stars and 15 stripes, um, which was the requisite number that was for 15 states. Um, there weren't 15 states during the war of 18, 12. There were a couple more, but um. But that, that was the, the dimensions that they were made, and so that, that is the flag they created.
And truly an impressive site. I mean, just a, just a massive flag.
Liz: Yeah, I just. I mean, we, we sell flags that [00:24:00] big now, but I just can't even imagine someone making something that massive. Um, so I, I mean, when we think about the war of 1812, um, I mean, I just, I just can't get over the weight. I feel like it would weigh more than 50 pounds. But,
Kirk Higgens: Yeah.
Liz: but anyways. When we think about the war of 1812, you know, I know you mentioned Fort McHenry.
Um, can you set the scene, you know, what was happening there when, when the, the flag was commissioned? When it was raised? Um, daily.
Kirk Higgins: Sure. So war had broken out between Great Britain and the United States, um, over a variety of reasons, um, including impressment of sailors. The failure of British to, to evacuate, forts and the frontier, lots of different things. Um, it was, it was commonly referred to as Mr. Madison's war, um, because James Madison was president at the time, um, and he felt he had brought on this war, um, and.
It began in 1812, but there wasn't it wasn't, it wasn't the most prosecuted war at the [00:25:00] time. Um, Britain was busy fighting Napoleon in, in Europe. But after the initial defeat of Napoleon in 1814, they began to turn their attention, um, back towards the United States in the war that they're prosecuting there.
And so they planned to attack the major ports of the United States which included Baltimore. And so then in August of 1814, um, they made their move first by landing and attacking the capital of the United States, Washington, dc which they occupied and burned on August 24th. Um, which forced famously the government to have to evacuate, which included James Madison and his wife, Dolly Madison, who famously saved a portrait of George Washington from being burned, um, in the White House.
Um, so after, um, they burn Washington DC they continue on north, um, towards Baltimore. Um, and so it was in September 13th that the fleet, the British fleet anchored off the coast off of, um, Fort McHenry and [00:26:00] began to shell, um, the fort, which was part of the perimeter defenses of Baltimore.
Um, and that's sort of September 13th is the day that, that, that sort of the scene begins, I guess is, is the day of the, the bombardment. Um, and, and when things played out.
Bill: Now, so how accurate is the national anthem in. You know, and he, he wrote this song, Francis Scott Key. I mean, don't know all the words, and I'm certainly not gonna sing it for you, but it kind of paints a picture. How accurate is that? Is that what he saw? And
Kirk Higgins: It is.
Bill: why he was inspired.
Kirk Higgins: Yeah, it is. So Francis Gke was out in Baltimore Harbor and he watched the bombardment from the British side. Um, he was there trying to negotiate the exchange of a, of a prisoner, someone he had, um, who he knew, who had been taken prisoner by the British. And he was in the process of trying to get his freedom.
Um, and so he watched the entire bombardment. And so he had this experience of throughout the night of the 13th, um, this just heavy. Constant bombardment, both of, um, cannons, cannonballs, and then something called [00:27:00] concrete rockets, which was something that the bridge were employing. Um, and it was just relentless.
Um, and throughout that, the fort had an American flag over it, but it was a small, what they call a storm flag. Um, so one that, you know, you would expect, storm flag sounds like it is smaller, getting beat up by winds all the time, um, that, you know, stays throughout the night. Um, it's obviously dark. You have this just tremendous elimination.
And then the morning, um, dawn breaks, they lower that storm flag and up comes that giant 50 pound, 30 by 42 foot. Banner, the Star-Spangled Banner. And so Key sees this, um, in, I think it's just truly inspired and so begins, um, writing down the poem just on a letter he back of a letter he had in his pocket.
Um, and then he completes the poem on September 16th, so a couple days later. Um, then it gets published in a newspaper in Baltimore. Um, and that's as, as the poem was then called The Defense of Fort McHenry. Um, and so it was from there that that it began to gain, gain, notoriety, a young nation standing up to the great British empire and [00:28:00] winning, winning a victory.
Liz: How, I mean it, it sounds like obviously it was well received almost immediately, but how did it. Rise to the National Anthem status.
Kirk Higgins: Yeah, so it was, and he did write it to to a British song. And so it was, you know, tailor made for people to sing it and people to repeat it. Um, and it, you know, throughout the 19th century it continues to grow. Um, in popularity. It's played at Independence Day, celebrations, um, at military parades, at other events.
Um, but it's actually not until, um, 1931 Herbert Hoover actually signed the law that said it would become the national anthem. And so, um, since 1931, it's officially been our national anthem. Um, but throughout that period it was seen again as this, this, you know tremendous inspiring scene, um, that that really shows what it means to, to sacrifice, to stand up against, um, you know, forces who would be otherwise trying to subvert, subvert the government, and, yeah, still sticks with us to this [00:29:00] day.
Bill: Susan, it's inspiring. No wonder we're in the flag business.
Liz: Yeah. Oh yeah. Because, um, you know,
Bill: wow. I mean, it, it means much more than sometimes it appears that I. I always believed the flag represented an event. How accurate? I didn't know. And listening to you, it really is almost gives you goosebumps. It really does.
Liz: Well I feel like, you know, I mean if you go to Texas or something now there's 50 foot flags all over the place, but, but I'm just still stuck on then I'm picking out the pole back. How
Bill: big was this pole? That was probably
Liz: the biggest. It was, I mean, probably incredibly inspiring to be, to be serious about it.
Oh yeah. Whatever. Yes. But for sure goosebumps. I mean, so, um. Can you go see um, the original flag?
Kirk Higgins: Yeah, so the um, Smithsonian still has, its at the American History Museum. Um, on the National Mall. Um, so, and they've done an incredible job restoring it over the years, so it's in great shape. Um, you can go see it, they have a nice little exhibit. Um, and if [00:30:00] people are in the area and interested, you know, not only in that flag, but in this event, I would also encourage you that, um, national Park Service maintains Fort McHenry and it's an incredible place to go.
They do a tremendous job. Um, even with the sort of the, the video that they show you has a moment, um, where they sort of replicate that moment where the flag comes into view. Um, and it's really tremendous. Um, so I would, I would recommend doing both, but if you're gonna do one, go see the flag, um, right there on the National Mall.
Um, and, and they, they have a nice exhibit there.
Bill: Well, I'd be flying that on the 250th anniversary. Right? Absolutely.
Kirk Higgins: Yeah, it's incredible. You know, I, I think what's very fun about, you're talking about the meaning of flags and how important they are, they, they were so important at the time as well. Um, just because they do hold so much meaning, um, that the flag now is actually smaller than it originally was. And is missing a star because people would take parts of the fabric as mementos, right?
Just to be a part of this moment and to see what it was. And I think that just shows. People look to these symbols as more than just symbols. I mean, they, [00:31:00] they really do have meaning and they connect us to the past in a way that's really important for us to continue as a country. We have to have things in common.
We have to have a story in common. Um, and in that flag, in this story, I think are an incredible, incredible example of that. And again, just thinking about individuals who are taking bits and pieces of that flag, just to be able to take home and hold close to them, I think is an incredible thing.
Bill: Absolutely.
Liz: Wow. Well, we'll, we will now be having Kirk on every episode. Thank you so much, Kirk. This is really, really interesting. Yeah, it was awesome, man. We appreciate you joining us.
Kirk Higgins: Yeah. Thank you. No, I really enjoyed it. Thank you so much.
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