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Reed and Derek pause and reflect after hosting four amazing guests as Season 2 gets underway. They ask "What are we learning?".
Join Derek Hudson as he explores Essential Dynamics, a framework for approaching the challenges facing people and organizations. Consider your Quest!
And thank you very much for your applause for my guitar solo there. My name is Reed McColm. I'm the very good looking host of Essential Dynamics, which is a framework for looking at business and life and it was come up the person who came up with it was Mr. Derek Hudson. Derek, how are you today?
Derek:I'm doing fantastic and I think come upping is a verb and that's what I did.
Reed:Yeah, that's right, you came up. I appreciate that. I want to take some time today if we could to kind of massage and reflect on some of the guests that we've had and the things that they've said. In particular, the last four episodes have been, I thought, provocative and very moving at times when they discussed their own personal challenges. I have very much enjoyed these last episodes with you, Derek, but in particular, we've had some terrific guests.
Reed:You brought on Lindsay Osmond, the HR pro. Jade Bateman, your daughter, came on and talked about working with children and or in schools. Bruce Alton, who was instrumental in getting this framework in a position for going. He was the one who said, Derek, compose yourself. And of course, Mackenzie Brown from the indigenous tourism of Alberta.
Reed:I am terribly impressed with the quality of your friends. I'm wondering how you felt about these episodes. Did anything really surprise you? You knew who these people were.
Derek:Well, want people on because they're interesting.
Reed:Yes, they were.
Derek:And that means that I'm not exactly sure what they're going to say. And I was I guess I wasn't surprised that they said, you know, interesting things, but I learned from each of them. And then also kind of putting the last few episodes together in my mind, I learned a lot. So, you know, essential dynamics is a framework. It's not a solution.
Derek:It's not a tool to solve problems.
Reed:No. It's a perspective.
Derek:It's a way to step back and kind of look at things. And each of them had some things that contributed to that and you know, maybe some of them are more of a stretch, but on their own, just on the face of it, their perspective advice that each of them gave, first of all, really useful and second was more broadly applicable than any of them would have thought, I think, as we kind of see them together.
Reed:Yes, think so. Go ahead, I'm interrupting you.
Derek:So if we're going to talk about them, I'd be interested in starting with Bruce. Sure. And then we did Lindsey and Jade in succession and that was a really kind of interesting It was, they
Reed:had no contact previously and yet the interviews we conducted with them were remarkable. Very different professions, very different interests, and yet a lot of the things they said were very similar.
Derek:And then of course, Mackenzie, what can you say?
Reed:Yeah, Mackenzie's comments and thoughts were timely and heart wrenching at times, I felt. So I was really grateful that she could take the negative history that we may have here in Canada with the Indigenous population and now turn it to something positive. That was remarkable, Remarkable.
Derek:Yeah, so let's be sure to cover that to some degree as we speak. Where would you like to start then?
Reed:Well, I'd like to start with let's start with the two ladies, Lindsay and Jade, and why were they similar, do you think?
Derek:Well, one of the things that, you know, I'm interested in is finding truth. And I think true principles stand up on their own, they resonate, They're found in many different applications. And so Lindsay's interests are how do people fit in organizations? And if you think about the balance between the individual and the group that we we talk about, Lindsay said that she left corporate America. So she was in charge of human resources at a big international company and she left that.
Derek:And then from the way they talk, I would say that in her heart, Lindsay's more on the side of the individual than she is on the organization.
Reed:Okay. I'll agree with you on that.
Derek:And then of course we talked to Jade and Jade talked about how from as young as she can remember, she knew that she wanted to work with children. And Jade is a fierce advocate of children, particularly children with challenges. And so what we found out that we didn't necessarily expect was that we're all children with special needs.
Reed:That's right. Yes. I'm I'm finally I'm grateful someone's finally recognized that for me.
Derek:But one of the things that Jade said, and the difference really is this, is that adults, or as she kept saying grown ups, which was awesome, grown ups are more accountable.
Reed:Mhmm.
Derek:It doesn't it doesn't mean that, you can expect them to, you know, not be have to respond to the situation that they're put in. But she said grown ups are more accountable, and children are less accountable, and so we should do what we can to, you know, set children up for success. But I don't know that we heard a different thing, different set of principles on how to work with people from Lindsay than we did from Jade.
Reed:Not in principles, no. It felt very similar in that way. It did not feel similar at all in the ways they approached their employment, nor did it feel familiar in their They both came to it from different directions and arrived at well, communication and empathy as being enormously important to each person.
Derek:For sure. So one of the ways that Lindsay talked about empathy she said you have to do the work. So if you lead people, you have to find out what those people need to be successful. And in fact, one of the things I noted from Lindsay is the person's question. What do I need for my organization so I can show up at my best?
Derek:And then we talked with Jade about particularly kids with different needs
Reed:What we call special needs now?
Derek:No. Think they call them different.
Reed:Different needs. I didn't know.
Derek:Yeah. Special is too special to, you know
Reed:Words come in and out
Derek:of Yep. But Jade talked about how, you know, children do their best when they're they've got the tools and and the environment that they they need to kind of grow from. But Jade really, if you know, the the key message that Jade had is that if a child has an adult with which they have a deep emotional relationship, they're more likely to come out of the school system successful.
Reed:Because of that relationship with an adult?
Derek:Yeah, and some of the things I think we learned from that is that the relationship has power in itself. But then the relationship, Lindsay's point, the empathy or understanding so that the person with more access to resources, the teacher or the manager, can get people what they need. To be successful, because they understand what it is that they need.
Reed:You know, Derek, one of the things that I noticed in both of them, both of our interviews with them, is that they acknowledged but were not thrown by opposition. They both acknowledged there were hurdles that they had to jump, and they both did it. That seems to me to be a quality of leadership and also of well, it's essential dynamics is what it is, but also paramount in success, I think, is your ability to withstand, weather, and even conquer or adapt to opposition. Is that not something you saw?
Derek:Well, I certainly did and in thinking about some of the things they said, each of them said that you need to kind of find out what motivates people. Or in Jade's context, was what interests the child. But I think, you know, definition of what are you interested in, how can you tell something that you're interested in, It's something that you would pursue even if it's hard.
Reed:Yeah. And it's true.
Derek:And so if you, you know, we'll use the quest metaphor. If you set out with an objective in mind that's meaningful to you, then opposition can take its place as this is the next hurdle, this is the next puzzle that we have to do. Without that sense of direction then, that opposition just stops progress. So this idea that's inherent to leadership of finding out how people can find that inner drive is key. Lindsay's point was you have to do the work.
Derek:Jade may have added that, that there is an element of love
Reed:Yes, yes.
Derek:That can help people bring that out. So I was thinking about this after, and I would have to go back because we had an interesting episode on leadership a while back. And I talked about all these definitions of leadership that I compiled, which basically said a leader gets people to do stuff to a common cause or something. And I think one of the things that was missing from that was the recognition that there's a person in there somewhere. Right.
Derek:So I was to having done that work and then listening to Jade and Lindsay and some further reflection, I would say if someone asks, where does leadership fit in essential dynamics? Because in the few words used to describe it, you don't talk about leadership. I would say that leadership is the action of dealing with the dynamic forces with all of those elements. It's the action of identifying purpose X and purpose Y. It's the action of tapping into the drivers and overcoming the constraints.
Reed:Right.
Derek:And in particular, it's the action of bringing the interests of the person in line with the interests of the group. So that's what leadership is, is it's making this thing work better in groups. And personal leadership, if there's such a thing, is your own sense of tapping into your purpose, tapping into the motivators or drivers, overcoming the constraints. But I don't know that anyone can function completely in isolation, so there's always this interpersonal aspect. And what Lindsay and Jade, I think, helped us understand a little bit is that there has to be an aspect of interpersonal connection and you know, let's be real, what we're really looking for is love, which is you know, a sense of goodwill and acceptance that's not conditional.
Reed:And not a popular word in business terms.
Derek:Let me the up the vault here a little bit. When I was working on an early version of what's now essential dynamics, I was looking for kind of a goal for each of the essential elements. So the goal for purpose is that the purposes are aligned. That was a word I was throwing around. The goal for the system is that you get the flow.
Derek:We've talked about that a little bit.
Reed:Yes.
Derek:You know, if you think about a slalom skier, for example, every one of those gates is an obstacle. But when a slalom skier goes around the gates, it's a thing of beauty. It's way more interesting than going straight down the hill. And you know they're in the zone, like there's flow there. Yeah.
Derek:And then when I got to the people side, and I didn't have this individual and group thing put together yet, I was searching for a word. The word I came up with was love. Isn't it just really just love? And so I sketched this out and I sent it to my advisory panel, which is my kids and their spouses, know, who are smart people, well educated, don't think I'm all that hot. So they Yeah.
Derek:Yeah. You know, willing to say And a couple of them came back and they said, know, I totally get the love thing, but is it really gonna fly in the corporate world?
Reed:Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah.
Derek:So so, you know, there's still some work to do on how you overlay leadership to essential dynamics. But ultimately, if you don't care about people, does it really matter?
Reed:Good point.
Derek:And I know from time to time you try and provoke me, Reid, and you ask me about the dark side. And, you know, I'm not interested in going there. Yeah. Because you can manipulate, you know, people in many kinds of different ways. Sure.
Derek:But when you really just care about people, then we still have a challenge, which is how do we balance the needs of this one individual versus the group, whether it's mainstreaming a kid with particular needs or the problem employee or the customer that is kind of irritating and not appreciative of the value of your services. There's still people. There's people there everywhere.
Reed:Well, Derek, when we talked to Bruce Alton, who was instrumental in getting you to put this into a framework, I understand from our interview. One of the things I really appreciated about him was his four decisions: go, no go, park or pivot. You have to decide on each project. That's something that has haunted me since we had that interview.
Derek:How's the script going? Yeah. I parked it. But I
Reed:how how did you feel about that interview with with Bruce? I feel like we could have stayed with him for days.
Derek:Well, you know, Bruce talked about Ikigai and that overlapping of what you're good at, what you're interested in, what other people want you to do and what you can get paid for. I've used that before but since we had a conversation with Bruce, I probably raised it three or four times with people.
Reed:Uh-huh.
Derek:I was talking to a friend the other day who's between jobs and was feeling pretty down.
Reed:Mhmm.
Derek:And that was actually super cool because I asked her, you know, what are you interested in? What what do you like doing? And, once she started to describe, like, what she does at work, what I've seen her do at work many years ago and worked together, she just lit up. And I and I stopped and I said, hey. You you can't you gotta see your face right now.
Derek:And, so that icky guy power of tapping into what what drives you with the reality of what you're good at and what everyone else, you know, will pay you for. You know, there's power to that. So so that was, that was valuable. And I know the other thing from Bruce that, you know, I'm really interested in the application to some of your projects is, you know, what problem are you trying to solve and who's the customer.
Reed:Right. Right.
Derek:And in art, I don't think it always works that way.
Reed:It's very hard. I found those particular questions difficult to adapt in my profession.
Derek:On the other hand, when you're successful, you do tap into that. Sure. But I think you have to come up at a different level. It's not like do people need a play about moving Greenland? Yes, they do.
Derek:It's what is the feeling that I want people to walk away with, and are people looking for that feeling? Yeah. Put in the show notes when they can see the play about Greenland.
Reed:Yeah, that's true.
Derek:The wrong people have money.
Reed:Yeah, I understand it's a great play. People are talking about it, a lot of people say, you know, people are saying. We don't have a lot of time left, but I sure would like to talk more about Mackenzie Brown's feelings about indigenous tourism and indigenous lifestyle. We certainly learned a lot through her. What diverse episodes we've had, what amazing topics, and the fact that we can still come back to drivers and constraints and quest and purpose x and purpose y, I just find that phenomenal and a test of essential dynamics itself.
Derek:Well, know, I think we'll have Mackenzie back and we'll kind of get the indigenous version of the quest.
Reed:Yes. I'd like that. And that probably is that's probably where we should go with
Derek:Yeah. And the story now, just to be fair, we recorded the episode with Mackenzie on 06/24/2021. Yep. A few weeks before, there was an announcement of discovery of graves at a residential school in Kamloops. But the morning that we recorded the episode with Mackenzie, there was another revelation about more graves in Saskatchewan.
Derek:And Mackenzie had just got off a team meeting, you know, with their people on that topic and then joined us. It very tender and one of the things that Mackenzie said there is, you know, when we have uncomfortable feelings, want to jump to a solution.
Reed:Yes. Yes. That's that was my initial what do we do to make sure this never happens again?
Derek:And she said you gotta sit with those feelings. So there was a reeducation process that was attempted over the past hundred and fifty years. It didn't work in terms of, you know, exterminating the indigenous culture, which which is a blessing. I don't think any culture should be exterminated. We should be mining the wisdom of the ages from all cultures to find out how we can do better.
Derek:Right.
Reed:Right. But it's very difficult to tell that to the Borg. It seems like there's a I'm using a Star Trek metaphor, but it's very difficult for an assimilation. The Borg are determined to assimilate, make everybody like them, period. It's very difficult to tell that culture, that there is worth in every culture.
Derek:So let me share an experience that I had a few years ago. So Edmonton has the Heritage Festival. Yeah. And 100 pavilions, 100 different cultures represented, food, dance, music. It's it's, you know, it's outside in the, you know, Best Park in Edmonton.
Derek:It's just fantastic experience. So a few years ago, I was there with my in laws and my one of one or more of my children and grandchildren. So there's multiple generations there. Sunny afternoon, came up over the rise, you see all of these pavilions. Every color, every language, every kind of meat on a stick represented.
Derek:And I just had this thought, it just came to me. This is what heaven's gonna be like. So there's no assimilation there, but there's love and understanding. I Mackenzie Celebration
Reed:and food. And food on a stick.
Derek:Yeah, on a stick. And I think Mackenzie opened up a little bit and she said, you can come and see what we do. And so indigenous tourism, that's a pathway to that connection. But there's many other cultures where we can also, you know, pursue those pathways of connection. And then it's appreciation for the differences and for the eternal truths that they all all teach.
Derek:Yeah. That sounds way better than taking all the food, assimilating it into a blender, and then making us eat it with a spoon, right?
Reed:Yeah, absolutely. Derek, I think that's a lovely thought, and I thank Mackenzie Brown for bringing it to us again, but in the interest of time, I think that's a good place to end. Derek, as always, I do appreciate talking with you. I thank you for your insight and for your wisdom, which has made a profound influence on my life. Derek, where can they reach you if they want to want to get hold of you?
Derek:Derekhudson.ca is the place to find me and you know the question for the day is what other guests should we have? Because we've just had these fantastic conversations. Put your hand up or nominate someone.
Reed:That's absolutely true, I'd like to hear that. For the time being however, we're off to another day of our quest and we want to pursue our many opportunities and overcome opposition that we might face. For Derek Hudson, I'm Reid McColm, your very gracious and handsome host for Brynn Griffiths in the studio, consider your quest.