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Exploring how humans connect and get stuff done together, with Dan Hammond and Pia Lee from Squadify.
We need groups of humans to help navigate the world of opportunities and challenges, but we don't always work together effectively. This podcast tackles questions such as "What makes a rockstar team?" "How can we work from anywhere?" "What part does connection play in today's world?"
You'll also hear the thoughts and views of those who are running and leading teams across the world.
Audio file
WNM142-katie-ceccarini-gift-of-feedback.mp3
Transcript
00:00:00 Dan
Most feedback doesn't fail because the message is wrong.
00:00:03 Dan
It fails because of how it's given.
00:00:05 Dan
This week on We Not Me, we're joined by Katie Cesarini, a coach and author of Fearless Feedback, so that we can unpack why feedback has become one of the most feared conversations at work.
00:00:15 Dan
We're going to talk about why even well-meaning managers get it wrong, how a single phrase can instantly trigger defensiveness, and what it really takes to be honest without damaging the relationship.
00:00:25 Dan
Because done well, feedback doesn't break trust, it builds it.
00:00:33 Dan
Hello and welcome back to We Not Me, the podcast where we explore how humans connect to get stuff done together.
00:00:39 Dan
I'm Dan Hammond.
00:00:40 Pia
And I am Pia Lee.
00:00:42 Dan
Hello, Pia.
00:00:43 Pia
How are you?
00:00:44 Dan
Good, thank you.
00:00:44 Dan
I can hear rain in the background, just slight faint.
00:00:47 Dan
Are you in one of these biblical moments again?
00:00:50 Pia
Yeah, biblical chucking it down.
00:00:51 Pia
And my daughter is on work experience, so I am doing the morning
00:00:55 Pia
horse feed.
00:00:56 Dan
Oh my goodness.
00:00:58 Pia
As part of my 5.30am, 6 o'clock in the morning treat in the winter.
00:01:04 Dan
What joy, what joy.
00:01:06 Dan
Okay, that'll be really lovely.
00:01:07 Dan
I hope it's not raining by then.
00:01:09 Dan
Excellent, excellent.
00:01:10 Dan
And today, Pia, we are talking, maybe your daughter will come back and give you what we're talking about today, which is some feedback.
00:01:17 Dan
Yeah, maybe.
00:01:18 Dan
They're not averse, but this word is a bit chilling sometimes, you know, and we'll talk about this with our guest, Katie Cesarini.
00:01:26 Dan
But the word sometimes when I think about it reminds me of a time very early in my career where we had a colleague on a client site and the colleague gave us feedback that he had bad body odour.
00:01:37 Pia
Right.
00:01:38 Dan
And someone in our team had to give him that feedback.
00:01:43 Dan
Yeah, tell him that.
00:01:43 Dan
It's a sort of classic, very raw feedback moment.
00:01:47 Dan
It was one of my colleagues that took the hit, but unpleasant for both parties.
00:01:52 Pia
How did it go?
00:01:53 Dan
It went fine, I think.
00:01:54 Dan
Yeah, it went OK, but God.
00:01:55 Dan
That's your nightmare.
00:01:58 Dan
Exactly.
00:01:59 Dan
That's the nightmare one.
00:02:00 Dan
It's sort of very personal, very tricky and tough for both parties.
00:02:04 Dan
And I think that's the subject we're going to get into today with Katie.
00:02:08 Pia
Not bad body odour, but giving feedback.
00:02:10 Dan
No, sorry.
00:02:11 Dan
Yeah, more broadly, just to be clear.
00:02:16 Dan
Yes, and the sort of what it's like for both parties as well.
00:02:19 Dan
It's a fascinating topic because it's, and it's sort of where the management rubber hits the road, isn't it, rather?
00:02:25 Dan
So a kid user, coach, consultant, leadership developer has written a book called Fearless Feedback.
00:02:31 Dan
So brilliant time to get this friend of Squadify onto the show to talk about this tricky subject, whether it's body odor or other matters.
00:02:40 Pia
Both could be unpalatable.
00:02:43 Dan
Yes, and some have more strategic impact than others, let's face it.
00:02:46 Dan
But let's go and talk to Katie now.
00:02:56 Pia
It's our very great pleasure to introduce and welcome to the show, Katie Cesarini.
00:03:03 Pia
Nice to have you on the show.
00:03:04 Katie
Hey, thank you for having me.
00:03:06 Katie
This is so exciting, friends.
00:03:09 Pia
I know, and we're going to we're going to grapple.
00:03:11 Dan
It's about time.
00:03:12 Pia
With the thorny, the thorny topic of feedback and
00:03:17 Pia
Yeah, I know, and you've just published your book on this subject, so it's perfect timing.
00:03:24 Pia
We're going to get into all the nuts and bolts of that.
00:03:26 Pia
Before that, I'll hand you over to Dan, who has probably pulled
00:03:31 Pia
a lovely card that he's going to test you out on.
00:03:35 Katie
Beautiful.
00:03:35 Dan
I have.
00:03:36 Dan
And actually, I have an idea you're going to like this one.
00:03:39 Dan
The card is the last big thing I learned about myself.
00:03:43 Pia
Not in feedback from someone else.
00:03:46 Dan
But I think this is going to be, I know you're doing a lot of different stuff at the moment, Katie, so this could be a good one for you.
00:03:51 Katie
Quite timely, as a matter of fact.
00:03:53 Katie
So I had this realization about two weeks ago and I shared it with someone 2 weeks ago and then actually this was in a conversation.
00:04:01 Katie
just on some two days ago, which was I'm really good at one core challenge at a time.
00:04:11 Katie
And it's in the realm of in the three buckets for me are work training.
00:04:18 Katie
So I've been a triathlete for many, many years and I'm now looking at high rocks training.
00:04:23 Katie
So physically challenging myself from a running and weightlifting standpoint.
00:04:29 Katie
And then the third bucket is actually with my
00:04:31 Katie
horse, who is a beautiful, gorgeous paint mare who has loads of opinions.
00:04:38 Katie
And somedays she really wants to challenge me.
00:04:42 Katie
And what I have really realized is that when work is really challenging and I have a lot on my plate, when I go to the barn, I don't want to be challenged.
00:04:50 Katie
So she and I just have a lovely walkabout.
00:04:55 Katie
Yes.
00:04:55 Pia
Horses don't get that.
00:04:57 Pia
They've kind of got their own mind.
00:04:58 Katie
No.
00:04:59 Katie
And then there are other times where
00:05:01 Katie
I feel like I've got everything, organized, rocking and rolling.
00:05:07 Katie
And then I'm up for a challenge of, yes, give me a very hard interval run or let me have a very challenging training day with my horse, but I can't have all three in one day.
00:05:17 Dan
I love it.
00:05:18 Katie
I agree with that.
00:05:20 Katie
I'm learning to back off in recognizing things.
00:05:23 Dan
Very wise and just walk the horse.
00:05:24 Dan
Don't tempt her into more opinion sharing it sounds like.
00:05:28 Katie
Exactly.
00:05:30 Dan
That's a great one.
00:05:31 Dan
Well, you've shed quite a bit of light on this next question already, but give us a quick bio in a box of Katie Cesarini.
00:05:38 Dan
Watching you on LinkedIn, we get flavors of all these things, but take us back a little bit.
00:05:42 Dan
Where did it all come from?
00:05:43 Dan
Bring us up to today.
00:05:44 Katie
Yeah, I started out my career in early education, actually.
00:05:48 Katie
So I was running afterschool tutoring centers for kids ages four to about 14 or so.
00:05:55 Katie
And after four years of that, I was like, what am I doing?
00:05:58 Katie
I studied marketing.
00:06:00 Katie
What am I doing?
00:06:01 Katie
running an after-school tutoring program.
00:06:03 Katie
So I made a pivot.
00:06:04 Katie
I joined Yelp.
00:06:05 Katie
I was the first account manager hired there and I was supporting the site's advertisers.
00:06:10 Katie
And within about two or three months, they looked at me and said, well, wait, you know how to teach people and you've just proven our concept of account management.
00:06:20 Katie
We're now going to hire a bunch of people.
00:06:22 Katie
So can you now train them?
00:06:24 Katie
And that effectively started a 10-year career at Yelp where I was running all of training for account management and then
00:06:31 Katie
what evolved into customer success.
00:06:34 Katie
And then after 10 years of running global training, then I wanted to get back to building.
00:06:39 Katie
So I joined Opendoor, which was a real estate tech startup in San Francisco, and I was the head of learning and development there.
00:06:46 Katie
And I also pivoted from individual contributor focus to more of a focus on management and leadership development.
00:06:55 Katie
So it was also while I was there that I started my coaching certification and ultimately
00:07:01 Katie
started transition out into running my own business, which is endurance management coaching.
00:07:06 Katie
So the two common threads that have been present through all of that work are one of difficult conversations.
00:07:15 Katie
So working with advertisers and 75% of the time having to say no, yet try and retain their advertising dollars took a certain level of conversational skill.
00:07:25 Katie
And then the second thread through all of that was people development.
00:07:28 Katie
So the one thing that I never ever wanted to take
00:07:31 Katie
taken off my plate no matter how busy I was, getting to work one-on-one with people, see those ahas and help them do better in their work.
00:07:40 Katie
So now I get to do that all the time where my focus is on teams and individual performance.
00:07:46 Pia
Brilliant.
00:07:47 Pia
And so there's a real common theme running through all of that.
00:07:51 Pia
How did you start to narrow down on feedback?
00:07:54 Pia
Why did that become such a topic for you to focus on?
00:07:58 Katie
A number of years ago, I don't recall
00:08:01 Katie
what LinkedIn course, I don't recall what it was, but what stuck with me was, what is the thing people continue to come back to you for?
00:08:10 Katie
And then what is the topic that you can endlessly talk about?
00:08:17 Katie
And when I realized that the bulk of my one-on-one coaching sessions and the bulk of what companies were coming to me for was around difficult conversations.
00:08:29 Katie
And I had this just beautiful opportunity where what I was teaching was resonating with people.
00:08:37 Katie
So started to just double down on that.
00:08:41 Pia
Feedbacks are difficult.
00:08:42 Pia
When you say to somebody, I've got feedback for you, then generally there's a sort of like a sharp intake of breath.
00:08:47 Dan
I actually did one of these last week because we were using a piece of our technology and I sent our CTO a message and I was cruel because I entitled it a bit of feedback about
00:08:59 Dan
this clarit on a page tool and it was really positive.
00:09:02 Dan
So when he opened it, I said, tricked you, it's really good.
00:09:05 Dan
But I knew that if I mentioned feedback, his heart would sink and he'd think, oh, this is a bad thing.
00:09:11 Dan
And if you ask people for feedback as well, they will generally think, oh, they're asking me for something negative, you know, a sort of developmental piece.
00:09:18 Dan
It's fascinating, isn't it?
00:09:19 Dan
How it has genuinely become something that is in the developmental side.
00:09:24 Katie
Absolutely.
00:09:25 Dan
Or a bit of a sort of, oh, you got feedback for me?
00:09:28 Dan
Yikes.
00:09:29 Katie
This was, let's call it about three years ago or so.
00:09:32 Katie
I had a group of managers and leaders, varying levels, so across a good distribution of experience.
00:09:39 Katie
And I did a poll in that training course and I gave them two options.
00:09:44 Katie
I said, which would you prefer to hear?
00:09:46 Katie
The first option was, can I give you some feedback?
00:09:48 Katie
And the second option was around something like, hey, I'm noticing something that can set you up for greater success.
00:09:55 Katie
Do you have a few minutes?
00:10:00 Katie
90% of that audience wanted option B.
00:10:03 Katie
Of course.
00:10:03 Katie
So I had then a follow-up question, which was, when you hear, hey, can I give you some feedback?
00:10:10 Katie
What is your immediate reaction?
00:10:12 Katie
And it's dread, panic, oh no, what did I do?
00:10:17 Katie
So that is a core starting point that I focus on with managers and leaders is if you want to have a good conversation, start by not opening it in a way that is going to immediately get the wall of defensiveness up.
00:10:32 Katie
If 90% of people don't want to hear, hey, can I give you some feedback?
00:10:35 Katie
Maybe let's just not start a conversation that way.
00:10:40 Pia
Done quite badly, isn't it?
00:10:41 Pia
So people have had a sort of, over the years, it's been practiced clumsily or delivered harshly or not factually correct.
00:10:52 Pia
That's probably why it has a triggering impact.
00:10:54 Katie
Yeah.
00:10:55 Katie
And also, I always think about when I talk about with managers and leaders is when you see a reaction from someone, be cautious of labeling that reaction because the external display can often be different than the internal experience.
00:11:10 Katie
So one story that I tell in my book is that when I was 22, I received feedback from my manager, Bridget, and she said, hey, I want to let you know that everyone else thinks you're defensive when you receive feedback.
00:11:23 Katie
And the first words out of my mouth, I kid you not, were, no, I'm not.
00:11:27 Dan
Perfect.
00:11:29 Dan
Perfect.
00:11:29 Katie
So if I were to go back to Bridget and say, hey, Bridget, remember that conversation, how would you describe my reaction?
00:11:37 Katie
She would describe me as defensive.
00:11:40 Katie
What I was experiencing internally was, wait a minute, I'm the A student.
00:11:47 Katie
I'm the high achiever.
00:11:48 Katie
I have never been told that I'm not good at something.
00:11:51 Katie
What do you mean?
00:11:53 Katie
And I was embarrassed.
00:11:55 Katie
I was embarrassed and disappointed in myself.
00:11:58 Katie
But what she saw was defensiveness and that's how I was labeled.
00:12:02 Dan
Yeah, so interesting.
00:12:04 Katie
So it's a loaded topic for a lot of people.
00:12:06 Dan
It really is.
00:12:07 Dan
It really is.
00:12:08 Dan
And Katie, you've just written this book.
00:12:10 Dan
It's getting great reviews.
00:12:12 Dan
To write a book is a big, there's a lot of work, but also you must have seen something was missing around the thinking and learning about feedback.
00:12:22 Dan
What was that hole that you're filling with this book?
00:12:24 Katie
Yes, there's no shortage of people understanding why feedback is important.
00:12:30 Katie
And I find that much of what I have read focuses on, well, you need to give feedback because it's how people grow and you need to do this because why?
00:12:40 Katie
And that's not what managers particularly are hungry for.
00:12:45 Katie
They understand they need to do it and they want to do it.
00:12:48 Katie
They're afraid because they don't know how.
00:12:51 Katie
So I wanted to focus on the how.
00:12:54 Katie
How do you have a conversation that is honest and direct and doesn't lose the relationship?
00:13:02 Katie
So when I talk about fearless feedback, that's what it is, is say what needs to be said without losing the relationship.
00:13:08 Katie
And that's my focus
00:13:10 Katie
And that's what I wanted to get into people's hands is here's how you do it.
00:13:15 Katie
And then also all the fine tuning pieces that all of us just figure out through decades of screwing up and learning from of the things like, well, what do you do when someone's personal life is falling apart, but their performance is impacted?
00:13:30 Katie
And the number of people that come to me and say, Katie, can I still give them feedback?
00:13:35 Katie
Yes, and here's how you can do it in a way that is caring and kind and serves the need of the business and the person and taking a really human approach to it.
00:13:45 Dan
And the fearless piece, whose fear did you have in mind?
00:13:50 Dan
Was it the giver or the receiver of the feedback or both?
00:13:52 Katie
Oh, good one, good one.
00:13:55 Katie
Now that you say, I mean, what I had in mind was the manager of, what, put the fear aside or frankly, have the fear and do it anyways.
00:14:03 Katie
But you're right, from a receiver standpoint, there is a component of, hey, there's not a bear chasing you.
00:14:12 Katie
When it's done well, really serves your engagement, your performance.
00:14:16 Katie
and your development.
00:14:18 Pia
So you talked about how and the practical component.
00:14:21 Pia
So step us through.
00:14:22 Pia
What is the best way to give feedback?
00:14:24 Pia
Let's blow some of the myths of the good and bad sandwich.
00:14:28 Katie
Definitely not that one.
00:14:30 Pia
Definitely not that one.
00:14:31 Katie
No.
00:14:32 Katie
My fearless feedback framework has three components, mindset, relationship, and delivery.
00:14:38 Katie
So when you are operating at the intersection of those three, what that means is that you have a strong mindset.
00:14:44 Katie
So you are going into the conversation
00:14:47 Katie
thinking, I have information that's going to help this person be their best.
00:14:51 Katie
That's a very different starting point for the conversation than, oh gosh, I need to give them feedback.
00:14:58 Katie
Oh gosh, they're going to get defensive.
00:15:00 Katie
If that's how you're approaching it, you're already in a losing position.
00:15:06 Katie
So get into a mindset that serves you and whomever it is that you're sharing feedback with.
00:15:12 Katie
The second component is relationship.
00:15:14 Katie
So how are you building that relationship from the start?
00:15:18 Katie
What is the trust and safety that you were building from the start?
00:15:22 Katie
And then how are you maintaining trust and safety within the interaction?
00:15:26 Katie
So again, they don't feel like a bear is chasing them.
00:15:29 Katie
So they're in fight or flight.
00:15:31 Katie
And instead, in this moment of,
00:15:34 Katie
Okay, I can have this conversation.
00:15:36 Katie
This is simply just a conversation.
00:15:39 Katie
And then the third component is delivery.
00:15:41 Katie
And that's where you are refining and thinking about your word choices and the structure of your message.
00:15:47 Katie
But in my observation, most people just go to wanting to learn about the delivery and they still struggle because they're missing the mindset in the relationship components.
00:15:58 Katie
So those three are the starting points.
00:16:01 Pia
And it's almost a little bit like if we do have to deliver a tougher message, that causes such a degree of angst that we forget the relationship.
00:16:09 Pia
It's almost like we blurt out the feedback just to get it out.
00:16:13 Katie
Yes.
00:16:14 Katie
And that was the experience that actually, like I referenced
00:16:17 Katie
my neighbor, she was dreading this conversation and she was waiting for my book so she could read it to then have this feedback conversation in this performance review.
00:16:26 Katie
And she said, she was like, that mindset in relationship, she said, what I really realized is I really like this person.
00:16:33 Katie
I really want them to be successful.
00:16:35 Katie
So I should just be honest and direct.
00:16:38 Katie
I'm like, bingo, yes.
00:16:41 Katie
There is then a really mindful structure that comes within the delivery.
00:16:46 Katie
And that's where I
00:16:47 Katie
What is your headline?
00:16:48 Katie
So how are you opening it in a way that is really speaking to their self-interest, sharing your observation, and then pivoting into what I call the ask, which is putting your coaching hat on and co-creating a path forward because feedback without action
00:17:07 Katie
without sharing and talking about a path forward, that's not feedback, that's criticism.
00:17:12 Dan
Yeah.
00:17:13 Dan
That's a nice definition.
00:17:14 Katie
Right?
00:17:15 Katie
The number of times that people are like, they get their performance review or feedback, hey, you know, I need you to be more strategic.
00:17:21 Katie
And they walk away and they're like, okay, but how?
00:17:25 Katie
What do you mean more strategic?
00:17:27 Dan
Definitely.
00:17:28 Katie
So my framework focuses on you need to get to a place of now help them know what to do moving forward to make progress on this observation.
00:17:38 Dan
I love the way you've gone deeper before just thinking about the do, but there's a sort of we not me piece to the relationship and there's a be piece if you like.
00:17:45 Dan
But in the actual approach, there are a lot of feedback models out there, aren't there, that it's almost like you're preparing for a monologue.
00:17:52 Katie
Yeah.
00:17:53 Dan
It's sort of, I say this and then I say,
00:17:55 Dan
and then I say this.
00:17:56 Dan
And actually, it has to be a conversation.
00:17:58 Dan
I really like, and let's face it, there has to be this moment of, right, I am actually talking now and I'm giving you a specific example that's really fair, all of that stuff.
00:18:07 Dan
I like the ask piece.
00:18:09 Dan
This is different, I think, from what I've seen before, because you do need to let the other person's views enter the conversation, don't you, and co-create.
00:18:16 Dan
Could you double click on that a little bit and what does that look like?
00:18:19 Dan
Yeah, that'd be great.
00:18:20 Katie
Yeah, you're right.
00:18:21 Katie
What I tend to observe is that folks get really
00:18:25 Katie
on what happened and why that was a problem.
00:18:29 Katie
Yes.
00:18:29 Katie
And this is less about what was the problem and I want to focus more on what do we want to do differently moving forward.
00:18:39 Katie
So first taking that mindset also reduces the reaction from the person because we're not rehashing all of the bits and pieces that led us here and instead saying, okay, so given that didn't go how you or I wanted it,
00:18:56 Katie
What are you thinking about that you want to do differently next time?
00:19:00 Katie
Or when you are addressing the really tough conversations like someone is passive aggressive, someone takes on a condescending tone, more of the interpersonal behaviors that as we all know
00:19:12 Katie
the further you go in your career, those are the things that hold you back.
00:19:15 Katie
It's not your hard skills.
00:19:17 Katie
And those interpersonal behaviors, those are the feedback conversations people put off.
00:19:22 Katie
They're like, Oh, it's just their personality.
00:19:23 Katie
I'm like, but it's getting in the way of their success.
00:19:26 Katie
So in that type of conversation, the ask then really gets back into, Hey, can you relate back to that moment when your tone shifted and what was that experience for you?
00:19:38 Katie
And knowing what you know now,
00:19:41 Katie
what feels like a good step in the next direction.
00:19:45 Katie
So it's not accusatory, but it's, hey, we are jointly figuring out there's another way to do it differently in the future.
00:19:51 Katie
And that's what I'm more focused on.
00:19:53 Pia
Yeah, it's a more curious mindset rather than.
00:19:57 Pia
a blame.
00:19:57 Pia
I think that's that criticizing that people probably actually feel most sensitive to.
00:20:02 Katie
Absolutely.
00:20:03 Pia
When they're probably actually doing their best, but it just may not have landed as well as it could have done.
00:20:08 Katie
Yeah, absolutely.
00:20:10 Katie
You know, this continuing on the ask in this coaching component, certainly when, you know, think about performance management.
00:20:16 Katie
So I work with a lot of managers.
00:20:19 Katie
They're like, well, how do I get their performance turned around?
00:20:21 Katie
And how do I hold them accountable?
00:20:24 Katie
And I'll say, okay, let's talk about it.
00:20:26 Katie
So they miss their metrics.
00:20:28 Katie
Okay, so let's talk about it.
00:20:30 Katie
Hey, I can't help but notice that.
00:20:33 Katie
So there was a miss and I want to set you up for greater success.
00:20:36 Katie
So what I noticed was you had X, Y, Z.
00:20:39 Katie
So let's you and I sit down and brainstorm.
00:20:43 Katie
What's your pipeline looking like?
00:20:44 Katie
What are you noticing is getting in the way?
00:20:47 Katie
What hurdles can you anticipate?
00:20:49 Katie
How are you thinking you want to address those?
00:20:51 Katie
And then when they start to come with the, well, I guess what I could do is the manager gets to fan the flame on that.
00:20:58 Katie
Yeah, keep going.
00:21:00 Katie
And what else do you want to do?
00:21:01 Katie
Okay.
00:21:02 Katie
And what support can I lend?
00:21:03 Katie
So when we're thinking about feedback of how can you put them in the driver's seat and the manager playing the role of coach and support and guiding them,
00:21:13 Katie
But it's not, okay, and here's your action plan.
00:21:16 Pia
Yes.
00:21:17 Pia
Yeah.
00:21:17 Katie
Not going to be as effective.
00:21:18 Pia
And Katie, the other side of things is that sometimes people that you coach don't want to take the actions and they're trying to put the monkey back onto the coach's back.
00:21:27 Pia
And it's difficult to have a cooperative conversation because they're trying to not take full accountability the actions they've got to take.
00:21:36 Pia
How do we get around that one?
00:21:37 Pia
Because you could end up just being a bit of a yes person and being all sort of curious and supportive, but nothing actually happens.
00:21:43 Katie
Absolutely.
00:21:44 Katie
I think about, you're in those moments where your gut is telling you, I'm not sure they're bought into this.
00:21:51 Katie
I think the first step is pay attention to your intuition.
00:21:54 Katie
So if you are sensing that they're not really bought in and they're giving you a fake approval or they're giving you fake buy-in, leverage your intuition and say, hey, let's pause here.
00:22:03 Katie
I'm sensing in between the lines that maybe there's some hesitation here.
00:22:07 Katie
Tell me more.
00:22:08 Katie
So first try and draw it out.
00:22:09 Katie
But when I think about folks not implementing
00:22:13 Katie
There are a couple of things that I have referenced in the book of one is, are they bought into it?
00:22:19 Katie
Do they know why this is in their best interest?
00:22:22 Katie
Do they agree that this is in their best interest to make these improvements or changes?
00:22:27 Katie
Because if they don't think that, and I tell a story in the book as well, I was once told to tone down my energy when I was leading group training sessions.
00:22:38 Katie
I have fully disregarded that feedback.
00:22:40 Pia
Yeah, well done.
00:22:41 Pia
Thank you for that.
00:22:42 Katie
Yes, because I didn't see how that was in my best interest or aligned with my aspirations.
00:22:48 Katie
So I have consciously not implemented that feedback.
00:22:51 Katie
So there should be an exercise that the manager goes through that if you shared feedback and they aren't implementing, okay, well, were they bought into why?
00:23:01 Katie
Was there mutual accountability that you created?
00:23:03 Katie
So at the end of that feedback conversation, did you talk about, hey, what makes sense for us to follow up?
00:23:09 Katie
What might be next steps that would make sense as, or what might be a cadence for us to check in on how you're doing in this area?
00:23:17 Katie
So if you didn't create accountability at the end of the conversation, there's an opportunity.
00:23:21 Katie
And then ultimately, I do start to get to the point where if folks are still not implementing, we can't want it more than they do.
00:23:30 Pia
No, I think that's so true.
00:23:32 Pia
That's the way of actually co-building the solution.
00:23:35 Pia
They've got to want it the same, if not more.
00:23:38 Pia
And so it's that whole thing of being coachable.
00:23:40 Pia
And some people, I've come across it, they're not interested, and that's okay.
00:23:44 Pia
But it's a different type of conversation then.
00:23:46 Pia
That's not really a coaching or a feedback type of conversation.
00:23:50 Katie
Well, interestingly, I have a little bit of an additional point of view, which is my starting place for conversations is first thinking about what is the type or the purpose of the conversation.
00:24:00 Katie
So is it an instance
00:24:01 Katie
that you're addressing?
00:24:02 Katie
Is it a pattern of performance or behavior that you're addressing?
00:24:06 Katie
Or is it a role fit?
00:24:07 Katie
So if you're getting to a place where you've given feedback and on an instance of something happening, whatever, and they didn't implement feedback, okay, well, they do it again.
00:24:18 Katie
It's now a pattern.
00:24:20 Katie
You now have a pattern conversation where it's not you did this again.
00:24:23 Katie
It's I'm noticing a pattern of behavior or a pattern of performance.
00:24:29 Katie
that's not going to suit your future success.
00:24:32 Katie
If they still don't take anything and don't make improvement, you may then elevate to a role fit conversation where, hey, I want to have an open and honest conversation about the extent to which this role is suiting your needs and mutually meeting the needs of the business.
00:24:49 Katie
What I'm observing is we've had conversations about XYZ and there haven't been changes.
00:24:54 Katie
So let's you and I have an open dialogue around the extent to which
00:24:59 Katie
this is still feeling like the right role for you.
00:25:01 Dan
I think your philosophy, Katie, will help to minimize the number of those situations you have.
00:25:08 Dan
Because if I look back to when I was being raised as a manager, when dinosaurs roamed the earth sort of in the 90s, feedback then was a, if I think about the spirit of it, was almost like this person is not fitting.
00:25:20 Dan
They're being difficult, their behaviors are aligned, and how are you going to get them aligned to what you want?
00:25:27 Dan
It might be
00:25:28 Dan
they're showing up late at work or get them to show up on time.
00:25:31 Dan
Whereas I think your approach is actually this is about them.
00:25:34 Dan
How can you help them to succeed?
00:25:36 Dan
And I think that is automatically a more enrolling, whereas.
00:25:40 Dan
I've just got to show up at your workplace at nine o'clock.
00:25:41 Dan
I'm going to rebel against that because I need to drop my kids at school.
00:25:44 Dan
Actually, if it's about how I can succeed more, I think it's fundamental to what you're doing and it's a big shift as well.
00:25:51 Dan
I think that's going to be helpful.
00:25:53 Katie
Yeah, that's a core teaching within the headline.
00:25:56 Katie
So when you are crafting your headline to then deliver your message is that headline should have a component of leading with what's their interest.
00:26:05 Katie
So what's in it for them?
00:26:07 Katie
It's going to be a very different conversation
00:26:10 Katie
of, hey, I'm needing you to adjust your communication, or I need you to improve your strategic thinking so that you can blah, blah, blah.
00:26:20 Katie
lands very differently than, hey, I'm seeing a way for you to level up within your role and have a greater impact within the team.
00:26:28 Katie
And the topic I want to chat through is strategic thinking.
00:26:31 Katie
Do you have a few minutes?
00:26:32 Katie
That's a headline.
00:26:33 Katie
And all of a sudden, their wall of defensiveness has not risen.
00:26:37 Katie
Oh, okay, I can have greater impact.
00:26:39 Katie
Now you're speaking my language.
00:26:41 Katie
And now they're open and remaining in a conversation and it's not a monologue.
00:26:45 Katie
Fantastic.
00:26:46 Pia
And also it's not power based, which I think is the other part with feedback.
00:26:50 Pia
When there's inequity of power and you've got a manager, that immediately creates, well, sometimes discomfort from the manager side of things, sometimes triggering from someone who's receiving it.
00:27:02 Pia
And I put down here, you talk about the headline.
00:27:04 Pia
It's actually how can you enroll people in wanting to be better and that they can feel comfortable and
00:27:11 Pia
safe, that we're all good at some things, not so great at others, and we're all evolving, but that we'd like to get better, and this might be really useful.
00:27:20 Pia
It may not be, but it could be.
00:27:22 Katie
I always talk about it.
00:27:23 Katie
I don't fundamentally believe people wake up and just say, you know what?
00:27:27 Katie
I'm going to be mediocre today.
00:27:28 Katie
So it's fascinating when I work with leaders who are like, well, you know, I don't think I can push them any further.
00:27:37 Katie
I don't think they're capable of more.
00:27:39 Katie
I'm like, but have you tried?
00:27:41 Katie
are assuming that they're not capable or that they don't want to make themselves proud.
00:27:46 Katie
And just about every person I've ever had the privilege of leading, they want to do their best.
00:27:53 Katie
They want to be able to get that praise and forward it along to their parents or their partner or their siblings.
00:27:58 Katie
So we have to go in with a mindset of let me care deeply for their wellbeing and let me hold a high bar and let me coach them to get to that high bar because I believe in
00:28:11 Katie
And I know that they're capable.
00:28:13 Dan
It's really powerful, Katie.
00:28:14 Dan
One of the other things I've heard, all kinds of things said around feedback is when to give feedback.
00:28:19 Dan
And I've heard all kinds of, in fact, I've heard nonsense talked about it in my view.
00:28:23 Dan
What's your view on this?
00:28:24 Dan
When's the best time to give feedback?
00:28:26 Katie
I view feedback as food in your teeth.
00:28:29 Katie
So other people see it, you don't.
00:28:33 Katie
And it's a question of if you are seeing food in someone else's teeth, how long are you going to let it sit there?
00:28:39 Katie
And the longer you let it sit, how annoyed, frustrated, embarrassed are you when someone finally tells you?
00:28:48 Katie
So that is fundamentally how I think about it, which is you are having an observation of someone, you are seeing food in their teeth, quote unquote, they aren't seeing it.
00:28:59 Katie
So the kindest thing to do is to be timely about it.
00:29:03 Katie
So I think timeliness is the most important thing.
00:29:06 Katie
I think far too often leaders are like, well, I don't have their one-on-one until two weeks from now.
00:29:12 Katie
Like, oh, that's not going to cut it.
00:29:15 Katie
And then when I position it as, okay, imagine it were food in their teeth.
00:29:19 Katie
Imagine it were food in your teeth.
00:29:20 Katie
How long would you want to walk around that way without knowing?
00:29:24 Katie
And all of a sudden that conversation happens.
00:29:28 Dan
It's the evening.
00:29:29 Dan
I had spinach
00:29:29 Dan
for breakfast, didn't the one someone tell me?
00:29:34 Katie
Exactly.
00:29:35 Dan
Nice one.
00:29:36 Dan
Excellent.
00:29:37 Dan
So obviously we want everyone to buy your book.
00:29:39 Dan
That's the first thing.
00:29:40 Katie
Yes, please.
00:29:41 Dan
Rush out, fearless feedback.
00:29:42 Dan
But if we boiled that down, what's one thing that you see that either managers get stuck on or you think it conversely would be a really good first step for them to move better into this world?
00:29:54 Katie
First step I always go with is mindset.
00:29:57 Katie
So if you are walking on eggshells, you sound like you are lacking conviction, lacking confidence.
00:30:05 Katie
So why is the other person going to listen to your message?
00:30:09 Katie
Versus if you go in and just fundamentally believe in your core, I have information that's going to help this person be better.
00:30:18 Katie
The weight of that conversation
00:30:21 Katie
is so much less.
00:30:23 Katie
So if there's any starting place and making a baby step, it's first just shifting how you're thinking about it so that you can come at it as a human and not be experiencing this dread and lack of conviction.
00:30:37 Dan
Thank you.
00:30:38 Dan
And our final question, as always, Katie, is do you have a media recommendation for us?
00:30:44 Dan
A book, podcast, whatever.
00:30:47 Katie
I have been, it's feeling incredibly timely and I'm hoping that your listeners also think it's very timely.
00:30:53 Katie
So the book is called Still Human: How to Build Organizations Where Leaders and Teams Thrive with AI.
00:31:00 Katie
And the concept that they get into, and this is written by two women based in Denver, Colorado, they really explore this human edge concept and how to not lose your humanity
00:31:14 Katie
in this transformational age of AI.
00:31:18 Katie
And I just think that the takeaways within there are really, really powerful.
00:31:22 Katie
So that's something that I have been reading.
00:31:25 Dan
Marvelous.
00:31:26 Pia
It is the time to be more human, have human conversations.
00:31:30 Pia
sometimes have the brave ones.
00:31:32 Pia
I think that's that whole essence that you've talked about, how to have a conversation that's got the right relationship and the right mindset to really move things forward and to come with the best intent and to really value what we all do and give feedback in the spirit of that.
00:31:47 Katie
Yeah, absolutely.
00:31:48 Dan
Wonderful.
00:31:49 Dan
Katie, thank you so much for being on the show.
00:31:51 Dan
It's about time, but I think we've timed it perfectly now with your book.
00:31:54 Dan
So thank you.
00:31:55 Pia
Yeah, it is.
00:31:57 Pia
Thank you.
00:31:57 Katie
Wonderful, wonderful.
00:31:58 Katie
What a pleasure you two.
00:32:00 Katie
That was fun.
00:32:01 Katie
Thank you for having me.
00:32:02 Dan
It's a joy to have you on the show.
00:32:03 Dan
Thank you, Katie.
00:32:04 Dan
Best of luck with all your work and the book.
00:32:06 Katie
Thank you so much.
00:32:09 Pia
I've worked with some teams where it's a little bit like everyone's skirting around the issue and everyone's
00:32:17 Pia
not really wanting to use another analogy or metaphor, not grasping the nettle and not having that ability to give feedback, name what's going on in the room, that fear of the straight talking, that challenging, it's almost like a psych safety sort of challenge in the status quo.
00:32:36 Pia
But it ends up with a real sort of murky middle where everything's nice but not defined and everyone's really just trying to
00:32:46 Pia
I think they feel a sense that no one will go first and actually give that feedback or say how it is.
00:32:53 Pia
And then the group just avoids the situation, avoids the conversation.
00:32:57 Dan
So how do you break that?
00:32:59 Dan
Because patterns are sort of quite embedded, aren't they?
00:33:01 Dan
How do you break that and start getting them onto a new level?
00:33:05 Pia
Yeah, well, quite often that's what they feel they're paying you for as a coach to say what they can't say.
00:33:11 Pia
But actually what the coaching is trying to do is to give them the tools to be able to have
00:33:16 Pia
that conversation in a really constructive way and to not have fear of playing the ball, definitely not playing the person, but being able to play the topic.
00:33:26 Pia
So calling it how you see it, seeing it, naming a dynamic or a communication or cause and effect and giving feedback through a specific example.
00:33:37 Pia
And I think it does have to be specific.
00:33:40 Pia
When you launch out into broad statements, it's really not helpful.
00:33:44 Pia
And then I think sometimes using
00:33:46 Pia
using the feedback, actually using a question to raise the feedback.
00:33:50 Pia
How do we think we're doing with this or what do we think?
00:33:53 Pia
So you're bringing feedback as a construct in better into the centre of the conversation and then everyone can have a point to it.
00:34:02 Dan
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
00:34:03 Dan
One approach I've taken actually is to build that habit is to sort of have a ladder of feedback because I think the toughest
00:34:11 Dan
is sort of that real development feedback, like the body odor one.
00:34:15 Dan
But that's actually really on that top rung.
00:34:18 Dan
Whereas actually I've found it's been helpful to get teams to learn to talk to each other and give feedback.
00:34:24 Dan
So the first one is actually, this is what I appreciate about you.
00:34:27 Dan
This is something really positive.
00:34:28 Dan
I just want to give you some feedback.
00:34:29 Dan
This is something that I think you've got a real strength about.
00:34:32 Dan
And it weirdly starts to grow that muscle.
00:34:34 Dan
You can then sort of add a little bit of, I think where it would be even better if would be this.
00:34:39 Dan
And it's just a little nudge
00:34:40 Dan
up and this is not to do, pardon the language, the **** sandwich, which is, oh, you're really good at this, you're terrible at this, and you're, oh, but that thing.
00:34:49 Dan
So it's not that.
00:34:50 Dan
It is actually just growing that muscle to be able to just, even better.
00:34:54 Dan
And then at the top of the tree is this, look, we need to have a conversation.
00:34:58 Dan
It's like this and getting stuck into it.
00:35:00 Dan
In fact, I was coaching a leader this week about it and sort of, you can't do that.
00:35:04 Dan
I think that piece of going into an actual high level conversation about feedback with a, so how are you doing?
00:35:10 Dan
So you do have to get stuck in.
00:35:12 Dan
It doesn't matter.
00:35:13 Dan
Or I tell you what I really like about you is this and you're just waiting for that.
00:35:16 Dan
But contrarily, if you like, that sort of learning escalation can be really helpful.
00:35:22 Pia
It's interesting because, again, pre-pandemic, feedback was talked about a lot.
00:35:28 Pia
And it was really a core part of development for managers and leaders.
00:35:35 Pia
And it's sort of brought out of the mothballs at the moment.
00:35:38 Dan
Yeah, right.
00:35:39 Pia
Whereas if you're trying to create a culture that is, you know, this high challenge, high support, feedback is an amazing mechanism to build and grow and develop people.
00:35:52 Pia
If it doesn't lead somewhere, if it doesn't have a specific intent, and this is what Katie said, then it loses its power.
00:35:59 Pia
It's not really feedback.
00:36:00 Pia
That's criticism.
00:36:01 Dan
Yeah, yes, exactly.
00:36:03 Dan
Yes, I think Katie's point was really
00:36:05 Dan
good there.
00:36:05 Dan
I was thinking back to when I first came out of the enterprise world into consulting and there was a ritual where we would deliver together to a room and then at the end there was a wash up and you're going to get criticism and there would be a sort of a page about you doing your job.
00:36:20 Dan
And it was just doof, doof, doof, doof, really like this.
00:36:23 Dan
When you said this, you missed that point about so-and-so if you referred to that.
00:36:27 Dan
I noticed the room did that when that happened.
00:36:29 Dan
You know, the energy went up.
00:36:31 Dan
But I mean, it was fantastic because it was sort of totally neutral, actually.
00:36:34 Dan
It wasn't a sort of, it was really about helping us all to do a better job, to have a better impact.
00:36:39 Dan
And I think if you can build that habit in a team, you've got to make yourself a real winner, but it takes a while.
00:36:44 Dan
I think the only bit thinking about, I'm very interested in the timeliness of feedback.
00:36:49 Dan
And I think that Katie's point about the spinach in your teeth, you know, sort of you get to the end of the day that you had spinach for breakfast, why didn't someone tell me?
00:36:57 Dan
I think the only thing I'd say is I feel like feedback should also be
00:37:00 Dan
made at the right time.
00:37:01 Dan
You will hear people saying the best time for feedback is immediately.
00:37:05 Dan
Well, is it?
00:37:07 Dan
sometimes people are upset about something, sometimes it's not the right time.
00:37:11 Dan
And so choosing the time when it's going to have the best impact is probably the guide.
00:37:16 Dan
But equally, Katie's right, the tendency is to wait to hold off and that's a tendency to resist.
00:37:23 Pia
I agree with that.
00:37:23 Pia
I think sometimes when things haven't gone,
00:37:26 Pia
as well as you would like them to go.
00:37:28 Pia
Giving feedback immediately when you're hurt and you're processing it.
00:37:32 Dan
Yeah, exactly.
00:37:33 Dan
It's not right.
00:37:34 Pia
You haven't got the ability.
00:37:35 Pia
Sometimes you catastrophize and make it even worse than it was or you're just bombed.
00:37:40 Pia
And so you beat yourself up.
00:37:41 Pia
So I think that is a good reason not to do it.
00:37:44 Dan
Yeah, and wait till everyone's in the right space for it.
00:37:46 Dan
Yeah, definitely.
00:37:48 Dan
Fantastic stuff.
00:37:48 Dan
Well, I encourage our readers to go out and buy Fearless Feedback and start doing some of it.
00:37:53 Dan
But that is it for this episode.
00:37:54 Dan
We Not Me is supported by
00:37:55 Dan
Squadify.
00:37:56 Dan
Squadify helps any team to build engagement and drive performance.
00:37:59 Dan
You can find show notes where you're listening at squadify.net and if you've enjoyed the show, please share the love and recommend it to your friends.
00:38:07 Dan
We Not Me is produced by Rob Lawrence.
00:38:09 Dan
Thank you so much for listening.
00:38:11 Dan
It's goodbye from me and it's goodbye from me.