Think Fast Talk Smart: Communication Techniques

The keys to communicating clarity, not confusion.

What separates communicators who clarify from those who confuse? The ability to “Simplify complexity,” says Adam Bryant. “I don't think you can be an effective leader if you can't do that.”
Bryant is a senior managing director at the ExCo Group and former New York Times journalist who interviewed over 500 CEOs for his renowned Corner Office column. Through those conversations, he identified a pattern: the best communicators turn complexity into clarity. For Bryant, that means checking your own expertise, considering not whether something makes sense to you, but whether it makes sense to someone else. “Empathy [is] a component of communication,” he says, “to be an effective communicator, you have to be able to get in the head of the audience.”
In this episode of Think Fast, Talk Smart, Bryant and host Matt Abrahams explore the keys to clear communication, from simplifying (without oversimplifying) to repeating messages until people can recite them back. Whether you’re leading a whole company or just one conversation, Bryant’s insights reveal how to communicate complex ideas in ways anyone can understand.

To listen to the extended Deep Thinks version of this episode, please visit FasterSmarter.io/premium.

Episode Reference Links:
Connect:

Chapters:

  • (00:00) - Introduction
  • (03:09) - Traits of Successful Leaders
  • (05:24) - Communication Mistakes to Avoid
  • (09:21) - Listening as a Leadership Skill
  • (12:41) - Simplifying Complex Ideas
  • (16:17) - How to Capture Attention
  • (18:57) - Leading Life with Curiosity
  • (20:21) - The Final Three Question
  • (25:57) - Conclusion

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Creators and Guests

Host
Matt Abrahams
Lecturer Stanford University Graduate School of Business | Think Fast Talk Smart podcast host
Guest
Adam Bryant
Senior Managing Director at The ExCo Group | Author

What is Think Fast Talk Smart: Communication Techniques?

One of the most essential ingredients to success in business and life is effective communication.
Join Matt Abrahams, best-selling author and Strategic Communication lecturer at Stanford Graduate School of Business, as he interviews experts to provide actionable insights that help you communicate with clarity, confidence, and impact. From handling impromptu questions to crafting compelling messages, Matt explores practical strategies for real-world communication challenges.

Whether you’re navigating a high-stakes presentation, perfecting your email tone, or speaking off the cuff, Think Fast, Talk Smart equips you with the tools, techniques, and best practices to express yourself effectively in any situation. Enhance your communication skills to elevate your career and build stronger professional relationships.

Tune in every Tuesday for new episodes. Subscribe now to unlock your potential as a thoughtful, impactful communicator. Learn more and sign up for our eNewsletter at fastersmarter.io.

Matt Abrahams: At one level,
effective communication boils down

simply to making things accessible.

Simplifying so people can understand,
providing the context to help them learn,

and allowing yourself to build curiosity
to motivate people to pay attention.

My name is Matt Abrahams and I
teach Strategic Communication at

Stanford Graduate School of Business.

Welcome to Think Fast,
Talk Smart, the podcast.

Today I am really excited to
be speaking with Adam Bryant.

Adam is a senior managing director and
a partner at the EXCO Group, and he

is a former New York Times journalist
and bestselling author, known for

his Corner Office column where he
interviewed over 500 CEOs and executives.

His work focuses on demystifying
leadership, identifying the key qualities

of successful leaders, and translating
those insights into actionable advice.

For managers, he's the author of
several books, including Quick

and Nimble, and the CEO test.

Welcome, Adam.

I am really excited for our conversation.

Adam Bryant: Great to be here, Matt.

Thank you for the invite.

Matt Abrahams: Alright,
shall we get started?

Adam Bryant: Let's do it.

Matt Abrahams: You've documented the
career journeys of countless leaders.

What are some of the specific
patterns or trends you've identified

that have helped these leaders to
be successful in their careers?

Adam Bryant: It's something I think
a lot about, and I've come up with

my top three if you'll indulge me.

So, the first one is the ability to
simplify complexity, which I know is

a topic that's near and dear to your
heart, but I don't think you can be an

effective leader if you can't do that.

So much of leadership is like, there's
a lot going on in the world, in your

particular industry inside your company.

I think it's a key leadership moment
to be able to stand on a stage and

say, this is where we're going, this
is how we're gonna get there, and

this is when we're gonna get there.

what the timeline is.

That's a high art of leadership,
being able to simplify but

not oversimplify complexity.

So that's number one.

I do think a lot about this
word authenticity, which I think

has become much more important
just in the last several years.

People want that and expect
that from their leaders.

Authenticity is one of those words
that means a lot of different

things to a lot of different people.

The way I think about it is that you need
to know what your values are and to be

able to communicate them and not just in
terms of fridge magnet poetry that, you

know, integrity's in part, but to be able
to say like I wanna share with you the

three values that are important to me.

I want to tell you the stories about
how these became important to me.

I want to tell you how these values
show up in my leadership style day

to day, so you know what to expect
and you know where they come from.

And to me like that's a big component
of being an authentic leader.

The final point I'll make is just leaders
have to be comfortable in the balancing

acts, the paradoxes, the contradictions
of leadership because the thing about

the leadership space, people are always
looking for shortcuts and saying,

leadership is about this one thing,
and it's never about one thing, right?

It's always about two things
that are usually in tension.

Part of your job as a leader
is to create a sense of urgency

while also being patient.

Part of your job as a leader
is to be compassionate, but

also hold people accountable.

You need to be a really good listener,
but you also need to know when

to say, folks, I made a decision.

We're going left, we're not going right.

And so just all those sort of gray areas,
those balancing acts, I think that's

another thing that you simply have to
be able to do to be an effective leader.

Matt Abrahams: I really appreciate
you distilling that down.

So it's to take complexity and
make it accessible, simplify

it, help people to prioritize.

Authenticity, which is really about values
and setting people's expectations for

what you expect from them and yourself.

And then this ability to deal
with the dialectics and tensions

that present themselves.

We spent a whole episode talking with Rob
Siegel, who I teach with, who wrote a book

on system leadership, and you're right,
there are so many tensions that we all

have to deal with, especially leaders.

That's critical.

When you look back at the synthesis
you've done, the career journeys that

you've seen, is there a particular
mistake or two that leaders tend to

make, especially when it comes to
communicating around themselves or

their companies that you've seen that
we could learn from and try to avoid?

Adam Bryant: I do keep
coming back to simplicity.

So two things: one,
simplicity and two repetition.

I think for a lot of leaders, things
tend to be very clear in leader's heads.

In the work that I do at my firm,
we coach senior leaders and usually

there's a gap between how clear
things are in the leader's head and

how clear they are to everybody else.

And look, earlier in my career when I was
a reporter, I followed around a CEO for

a couple of days doing a profile on them.

And there was a moment where they
stood on a stage in front of literally

thousands of employees, and the first
words were, I've got 11 things on my mind.

And you could literally just feel
the energy drain out of the room.

And all the science shows that most
people can't remember more than

three or four things day to day.

So I do think there's this learning
curve that I've seen that I've heard

a lot about in leaders, which is
just, I have to keep simplifying.

This from one of the CEOs I
interviewed a guy named Marcus Ryu.

He, he had this great expression
that really stayed with me

in terms of communication.

I think about a lot myself when
I give talks and my shorthand

version of his theory is the
Einstein Theory of Communication.

And what he said is that you can have
a room full of Einstein's, literally

the smartest people on the planet,
but there's something about the human

brain that the bigger the audience,
the more the collective IQ drops.

So I think about that a lot.

And so when you're giving talks
like my advice is big fonts, a few

bullet points, short sentences.

Because yes, everybody in the audience
is smart, but there's something

about, as audiences get bigger, you
have to keep it simpler and simpler.

So the second point I'll
make is about repetition.

And again, I've heard this a lot from
leaders as part of their learning curve.

You're like, why do I
have to say this again?

I just said it at the last town
hall, and you have to say it again.

You've gotta say it seven
times, seven different ways

for people to hear you once.

I love the rule that I heard from one CEO,
which is you have to get comfortable with

people almost teasing you because they
know exactly what you're going to say.

And when you do that, you've got them.

But just being comfortable in the sense
of like, folks, you've heard this before.

It's important to say it
again, let's reset on our

strategy, et cetera, et cetera.

Matt Abrahams: This notion of
distilling things down so people

can really understand them.

I like the term accessibility over
simplicity, simply because sometimes

simplicity implies dumbing something
down, and I'm not a big proponent

of that, but making it accessible
so people really understand, helping

them prioritize, see what's important.

And you're right, we suffer from the
curse of knowledge and sometimes the

curse of passion, and that leads us
to say much more and get into the

weeds in a way that actually detracts.

So I love this idea of, really
focus on keeping it simple.

And you're right, the more people that
you're communicating with, just because of

the diversity of experience and knowledge,
I do think you have to really focus on

accessibility, the larger the group.

And then this notion of repetition.

I also coach people, you have to
say it over and over again, not

necessarily in exactly the same words.

Maybe you say it and
then you give an example.

You show a statistic, you use an image,
whatever, but you do really have to

reinforce for people to understand.

And I like that test, if people
start teasing you for it, then you've

probably done enough repetition,
and I think that's important.

You've written several books.

Your book, The CEO Test outlines some
critical challenges leaders face.

One of these is, can the
leader really listen?

What advice do you have for leaders and
for all of us really to better listen.

Adam Bryant: I think the first point is
be aware that people may be coming to

you or probably coming to you with side
agendas that they may not necessarily

want to tell you that there's a problem.

There's that famous expression about,
be careful about how your jokes

become funny when you become a leader
and people don't really want to go

to the boss to bring them bad news.

So just this awareness that you're
actually trapped in an information bubble.

And this is the contradiction to
me of the CEO role, which is that.

You have access to more lines of
communication than anybody else in the

company, but all those lines are probably
compromised in terms of the accuracy

of the signal that you're getting.

So the first step is to be aware of that.

And then the second thing is to
build up literally almost a listening

infrastructure so that you could find out
what's really going on in the company.

And that comes from making sure that
you've got those confidants that

are going to be straight with you
when people do give you difficult

news that you thank them for it.

So that word gets out that you
actually get points for telling the

boss something they might not wanna
hear, rather than getting in trouble.

Because that word spreads really quickly.

I often tell the story.

So the book I wrote, The CEO Test was with
Kevin Sharer was the former CEO of Amgen,

and he was very aware of this phenomenon.

And so on the annual employee survey,
the last question on the survey for

everybody was the question, what do
you think of the job Kevin is doing?

And it was an open field.

People could do it anonymously
or sign their name.

Basically saying like, I need
to know what you're thinking.

And he said he would gather all those
and read them just to make sure that

you're getting the straight feedback.

Because history is full of companies that
got into trouble because people on the

front lines knew there was a problem,
but nobody wanted to tell the bosses.

Matt Abrahams: I really like this idea of
reminding yourself, uh, being aware that

there might be some other issue going on.

So what's the question
behind the question?

What's the feedback behind the
feedback and seeking that out?

And not just paying attention
to what is said, but perhaps why

it might be said in that way.

And I really like this notion
of listening infrastructure.

So it's about having trusted
others who can give you insight.

It's about rewarding
people who do come forward.

I would add it's being specific in
the type of information you want.

Often we don't ask specifically,
and when you ask for something

specific, you are likely to get
it versus a more general ask.

I appreciate that guidance and we
can all make sure that we do that.

And I think another factor there, and
I'd love to get your opinion on this,

is demonstrating that you actually
listened, not just thanking somebody for

it, but maybe paraphrasing or delineating
the action you're taking as a result.

Is that important as well?

Adam Bryant: Oh for sure.

And to your point, it's not just,
I hear you, but I think the most

powerful thing is thanking them for
that and then acting on it, right?

Because again, the word spreads
very quickly in culture.

And if somebody has an experience
where I went to the boss, gave

'em some tough news, they thank
me for it, and they acted on it.

And now I've got like a gold star on
my forehead because of that experience.

Like people are go, I'm gonna do that too.

Matt Abrahams: We've talked a bit
about simplifying complex information.

As somebody who's done what you do, as
somebody who's written about this now,

as somebody who consults on this, do
you have specific advice and guidance

frameworks for how you take something
complex and make it easier and more

simple for people to understand?

Do you have a tool that
you recommend or use?

Adam Bryant: I don't have a
simple tool, but I've had sort

of two chapters in my career.

One is 30 years as a journalist,
15 years as a reporter, where I was

having to simplify complexity myself.

And then 15 years as an editor where
I was having to help the reporters

I worked with simplify complexity.

And now eight years in its
consulting chapter where again this

skill of simplifying complexity
is so important for leadership.

But just starting with clarity of
what you want to say and what the

message is, that's the hardest part.

And it might even be painful, just like
staring at a blank piece of paper or blank

screen saying, what is it that I'm saying
and that I want to say and need to say?

And doing that thinking work.

And then just understanding this simple
thing about human nature, which is

most people can't absorb or remember
more than three or four things.

So if you are going to distill it down
and be tough with yourself, because

you talked about it earlier, the
dangers of oversimplifying, right?

There is a sweet spot there of truly
simplifying but not oversimplifying.

I also sometimes think about how
the word empathy has additional

meanings that we typically talk about.

Because we usually talk
about empathy, it's like, I

understand what you're feeling.

But I also think that we need to talk
more about empathy as a component

of communication, because to be an
effective communicator, whether it's

a presenter or it's a writer, you have
to be able to get in the head of the

audience and be able to see what you're
saying or writing with fresh eyes,

and ask yourself, is this clear to me?

Am I getting this?

Because usually people aren't good
writers or communicators or speakers.

They lack that ability, right?

Like you don't seem to be able to
understand how the audience is not going

to be able to process what you're saying.

So I think almost that forcing
function of having that empathy,

forcing yourself out of your own
head, because we're all trapped by

our own context, our own expertise.

And imagine somebody receiving this
information for the first time and

making sure that it's clear to them.

I mean, in all my years of working
with writers after they submitted

their story, I would sometimes say to
them, you are suffering from the most

noble disease of great journalists.

You are suffering from expertitis.

You are too close to this subject matter.

You know too much about it, and you're
having trouble resetting and getting in

the head of somebody hitting it cold.

And I think that's another way
of thinking about this empathy.

How do you take yourself out of your own
expertise to see it through fresh eyes?

Matt Abrahams: I love the term
expertitis you know, when I do

this work, I talk about the curse
of knowledge and curse of passion.

And I say the only antidote is
empathy and curiosity, because

those get you out of your head.

And I 100% agree with you that effective
communication is not broadcasting.

Effective communication is making sure
the other person understands what you

meant, and the only way to do that
is to see it from their perspective.

So being audience-centric is critical.

This notion of being tough on yourself.

To really force yourself
to be clear is important.

And starting with that bottom line,
really thinking through what is the key

essence of what I want to get across.

A lot of us start doing work
before we really even understand

what it is we're trying to say,
we discover that along the way.

And if we do that work up front, I think
it just makes us more clear and concise.

And I appreciate you sharing that.

I have read a lot of your work, and I've
enjoyed your work over the many years.

And one of the things that I note that
you do, and I'd love to know if this

is just innate and you don't think
about it or if it's strategic, you do

a very good job of getting people's
attention early and building that

curiosity and motivation to learn more.

That type of engagement upfront,
especially in a world where our attention

is being pulled in lots of different
directions, is really important.

How much of that is innate and can
you walk us through a little bit

of that because it's clear when
you look at your body of work that

that's something you do very well.

Adam Bryant: So I started The Corner
Office series at the New York Times.

It was a side project in addition
to my day job managing reporters.

And it was based on a very simple, what
if; I asked myself the question, what if

I sat down with CEOs and never ask them
a single question about their companies?

And everything flows from that.

And for the last 15 years, interviewing
more than a thousand leaders, I stick to

my swim lane of interviewing leaders about
leadership and not about their companies.

'cause most of the time when
leaders are interviewed.

They're interviewed as strategists, right?

Like how does next quarter look, Bob,
and, and to me, I'm much more interested

in how you lead, how you navigate the
universal challenges of leadership.

And I think that the more I've
gotten into this, the more.

I'm just really intrigued with the
humanity of leadership because who

you are is how you lead, and when
I was doing corner ops, I always

started with the same few questions.

Tell me about when you were a kid,
what were you doing outside of class?

Talk about your parents or whoever
raised you and important early

influences there, questions like that.

The world tends to talk about
children as young adults.

I think adults are just older children.

I'm always curious about those
early stories because why do

people want these jobs, right?

Like, yes, there's all these material
rewards and stuff, but like being a

CEO, nobody ever feels sorry for CEOs,
but they're like really tough jobs.

They come with a huge tax on your
personal lives and stress and

strain and all that other stuff.

So why do people want these jobs?

And so I'm trying to ask
questions that get at that.

The final point I'll make, Matt, is
that I generally boil down my q and as.

The transcript is often like eight,
9,000 words, and I'll boil it

down to 12, 1500 words, whatever.

And early on I figured out the
three things that to me are the most

powerful currencies of leadership.

So when I'm condensing it, I'm
always looking to keep three things.

One is an insight or lesson, right?

I learned this.

The second one is the story behind it.

Back to stories.

How did you learn this?

The third one is, okay, spin that forward.

How did that insight, that lesson,
how does that show up in your

leadership style day to day?

Matt Abrahams: I like that structure, and
I actually think that structure is useful

for anything we're trying to communicate.

What is it that you're trying to say?

Why?

How'd you come to that?

And then how does it influence you?

I think that's a lovely structure.

And the bottom line answer to my question
that I heard you say is the way you

motivate people to pay attention to the
things you write and the stories you

tell is based on your curiosity and that
curiosity comes through in what you do.

And curiosity is a very
powerful engagement tool.

If you can get people to feel curious, you
know, in, in college I was a tour guide.

It was the highest paying job I could
get, and I learned so much about

communication and what I learned is if
I wanted my group to stay together and

not wander off and leave and ultimately
give poor ratings to the experience.

If I could build curiosity from where
we've been to where we were going

next, that changed the whole thing.

They wanted to move forward.

They were interested,
they asked more questions.

So being curious yourself, I think
leads very nicely to communicating

from a place of curiosity.

So I appreciate you saying that.

Adam Bryant: Yeah.

I've learned so much from all
the leaders I've interviewed.

I mean life wisdom, not
just leadership wisdom.

One of the most powerful things I
heard from one leader was that, and

she was the university president, her
advice to students is basically just

to go through life in the way that
at any moment you could learn the

most important lesson of your life.

This could be the moment where I learn
the most important lesson in my life.

Matt Abrahams: That is a very
valuable lesson, and I think we

should all follow that for sure.

Well, Adam, before we end, I like
to ask three questions of everyone.

One I make up for you and the other
two I've been asking everybody as

long as this series has been around.

Are you up for that?

Adam Bryant: Always.

Matt Abrahams: All right.

From all of your years of interviewing
leaders for your Corner Office

column, what was the most surprising
communication, insight or piece of advice

you heard that fundamentally impacted you?

Adam Bryant: I think it's this idea
of who you are is how you lead.

Because before I started doing all the
interviews, I was trapped in that idea,

like there's different leadership styles
and what kind of leader are you itinerary

books about different leadership styles.

And, what I learned through interviewing
all these leaders and hearing their

stories, and then seeing the direct
line between, okay, this is how I grew

up, and the important influences, it
really shaped me, and that is how I lead.

I think a lot of people, when they move
into new leadership roles, there's a

sense of, okay, what is gonna be my style?

It's like trying on different
jackets to see if they're gonna fit.

And so I always say to people
like, who you are is how you lead.

Be self-aware about all the things that
influence your leadership style, and then

be explicit about that with your team.

Right.

People, they just want that sense
of trust and vulnerability and

authenticity 'cause people can smell it
a mile away if you're not comfortable

in your skin and you're trying to
pretend to be somebody you're not.

Matt Abrahams: So taking the time to
really reflect on who you are, what's

important to you, how you got to where you
are, and then be very clear with others.

And that sets you up for
connection and success for sure.

Question number two, and you have
interviewed a lot of people and

watched a lot of good communicators.

Who is a communicator
that you admire and why?

Adam Bryant: So many, but
I will tell you the story.

From the 1990s, I was a business
reporter at the New York Times and

I was covering the airline industry.

I spent a lot of time with a guy named
Gordon Bassoon, who was charged with

turning around Continental Airlines.

Continental Airlines at the
time was truly a punchline.

It was just a terrible
airline in really bad shape.

And Gordon came in, he assembled
this amazing leadership team.

And the thing about Gordon, he had this
amazing ability to simplify complexity

and just capture things in metaphors.

At that point, there was this big
push to cut costs and he said,

look, you can make a pizza so cheap
that nobody will wanna buy it.

And just that ability to create
those sort of little visuals or like

we can't just keep cost cutting.

He told me this one story about he
was at an all hands and some of the

pilots were like giving him a hard time
about the direction, and he basically

shot back at them and said, look, the
gateway is still attached to the plane.

You can get off the plane if you
want, but right now this is my flight.

And basically said, put up our shut up.

And in those leadership moments,
I sometimes think of it as being a

comedian dealing with hecklers, right?

You have to know not to put people
down, but you have to know what the

quick comeback is just to settle things.

Matt Abrahams: In relying on metaphors
and direct communication can really help.

Thank you for that.

Final question, what are the first
three ingredients that go into a

successful communication recipe?

Adam Bryant: The first one, be really
clear about what you want to say.

Spend all the time, give yourself like 12
words, right, just as a forcing function.

What is it that I want to say?

So be clear of that.

Second is make sure you
provide the context of why

it's relevant and important.

You can't just assume that you have
to put it in the broader frame.

And then third, keep it simple,
whether you're talking or using a deck.

I would say big fonts,
short bullet points.

I always make the joke that
nobody ever complained about too

big fonts in PowerPoint decks.

I see way too many presentations at
conferences where people clearly built

the deck while they were on their laptop,
and then in a big hall, the person at

the back of the room has to squint.

And then just sort of use the visuals and
metaphors and stories to make it stick.

Matt Abrahams: Absolutely.

So clarity, context, so people understand
the relevance, reduce that complexity

and really make it compelling through
the stories you tell, the metaphors

you use, the visuals you show.

Adam, this was absolutely
compelling and interesting.

Thank you for the insights that you
shared, and I really appreciate your

time decoding for us, what makes
for not just successful leaders but

successful communication, thank you.

Adam Bryant: That's great.

Thank you for the invite
and for the great questions.

Matt,

Matt Abrahams: Thank you for
joining us for another episode of

Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast.

To learn more about leadership, please
listen to episode 98 with David Dodson.

This episode was produced by Katherine
Reed, Ryan Campos, and me, Matt Abrahams.

Our music is from Floyd Wonder.

With special thanks to
Podium podcast company.

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